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Main => Everything Else => Topic started by: RetroJames on February 20, 2005, 09:00:29 pm

Title: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on February 20, 2005, 09:00:29 pm
Unreal -

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=up4ktd.2.4

Ultracade owner is actively having auctions removed from Ebay for IP infingement!

Edit by SirPoonga: Title change by request.

Re-Edit by 1hookedspacecadet: As the thread was started by me, I would prefer to keep the title as a general heading rather than a call to arms.  We do not know all of the relevant facts yet and I would rather see how this plays out before appearing to call for a boycott.  Thanks.

Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 20, 2005, 09:02:13 pm
I just read the info in the Software forum post and was about to come post something here.

This sounds crazy.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 20, 2005, 09:09:48 pm
I just read the info in the Software forum post and was about to come post something here.

This sounds crazy.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 20, 2005, 09:10:13 pm
 Word Mark MAME MULTIPLE ARCADE MACHINE EMULATOR
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Computer software that enables the emulation of multiple arcade games and their associated hardware, allowing them to run on a general purpose computer operating system
Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM
Serial Number 76627578
Filing Date January 11, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) Foley, David R. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 1281 Wayne Avenue San Jose CALIFORNIA 95131
Attorney of Record Lee Hagelshaw
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 20, 2005, 09:16:12 pm
Right, I went to the link, but he's listed as "Applicant" instead of "Registrant" (like other records there).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 20, 2005, 09:19:15 pm
Indeed.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 20, 2005, 09:27:26 pm
Someone needs to fight this...HARD!
I don't know if he can actually pull it off, though.

First of all, whoever designed the MAME logo needs to sue his --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- now!

I think most of the mamedevs reside in other countries (not sure), so I don't know how that would factor in.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 09:31:57 pm
Here's some law information:
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 20, 2005, 09:38:08 pm
His trademark on ultracade started in 2002

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=up4ktd.4.1

Someone else filed for one a year before

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=up4ktd.4.2

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 09:44:01 pm
Someone on alt.mame.games said the trademark might go through because it hadn't been used in commerce.  I disagree with that.  Look at mameworld.com.  They sell advertising.  Parts are sold as Mame compatible.  It is used.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Toonces on February 20, 2005, 09:53:05 pm
Actually, it appears that he is try to trademark the MAME logo. The application is for the word MAME in stylized form. So I would assume that while anyone may file an opposition to the application that whoever created the logo should probably get involved. Of course, everyone should get involved but that may be his goal. Stir up publicity.

The English translation of the word "MAME" in the mark is "BEANS" in Japanese. (taken from an application for "I need my MAME!")

 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 20, 2005, 09:57:38 pm
Still, kinda dumb for the MAME organization to not have registered...
They should be able to fight it, but the outcome would likely depend on the judge. I've heard of some judgements in cases like this being in the favor of the "little guy" when it can be proven there was prior use of the mark, but the win came with a warning to use the proper "TM" indication. You're supposed to "tell the world" what your unregistered trademarks are by using the TM symbol. This case is further complicated by the decentralized nature of the project.

As for the logo theft. That's just plain SLEAZY! We all know his name and address. We should start a letter-writing campaign.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Toonces on February 20, 2005, 09:59:48 pm
Another thought. Any companies that sell MAME compatible equipment that has been in business longer than Ultracade should be able to prove prior use in commerce. HanaHo or any other long standing companies that sell MAME related stuff.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: spystyle on February 20, 2005, 10:01:29 pm
Perhapse if he trademarks the word MAME, by this time next year we'll all be playing MAMA on our cabs.

David Foley harassed me for using the word MAME in my Ebay auction title, he said it's lisenced, and he said I'm not allowed to give people links to ROM sites containing "illegal ROMs that he owns the copyrite to"

So I asked him what the penalty for downloading ROMs was and he said up to $150,000 per game, so I asked him if anyone had ever been convicted of downloading ROMs and he said no, only some for selling ROMs.

If you want to send him a nasty e-mail this is his address:
"David R. Foley" <david.foley@ultracade.com>

After many semi-threatening e-mails back and forth I sent him the following, to which he did not reply:
---------------------
I see,
And you are trying to trademark the MAME design and
word? Did you draw that graphic? Did you help the MAME
devs program the emulator by writing lines of tedious
code? No? You're just a businesman who loves money? I
see...

Good luck to you David Foley,
Craig
----------------------

He's an audacious snake!

Craig
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 10:03:46 pm
Think I'll call my next cab the Ultracade II.


Of course I mean that in a sarcastic way.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 20, 2005, 10:08:22 pm
But it's a trademark, not a patent.  It can be proven that mame and that lgo have been around for years and that the ultacade dude didn;t create it. 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 20, 2005, 10:10:54 pm
Yeah. This ain't happening... it's just Mr. Ultracade thinking he had a GREAT idea.

The problem is going to be that the name and logo predate his claim by years...

...of course, that's if anyone tries to fight it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 20, 2005, 10:15:44 pm
Then someone should contact the trademark organization to mention them to look at mame.net
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 10:16:08 pm
Yeah. This ain't happening... it's just Mr. Ultracade thinking he had a GREAT idea.

The problem is going to be that the name and logo predate his claim by years...

...of course, that's if anyone tries to fight it.

Mr. Ultracade either fell and had a head injury and thinks he has a GREAT idea or the guy is a snake and other terms I can't use on here.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 10:18:53 pm
Then someone should contact the trademark organization to mention them to look at mame.net


Here:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-9707.html

It is our duty as Americans to inform the government of known prior art.  I'm not going to hold back on that duty...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 20, 2005, 10:19:02 pm
The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 20, 2005, 10:31:04 pm
The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.

That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 10:39:37 pm
Wasn't that the logo in the application from this page:

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/gallery01.htm

in which it is stated that

"THE ABOVE DOWNLOADABLE IMAGES ARE PROVIDED IN CONFIDENCE FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE FOR PERSONAL PRINTING AND ARE NOT TO BE REPRODUCED NOR COPIED IN WHOLE OR IN PART NOR LOANED OR OTHERWISE COMMUNICATED TO ANY THIRD PARTY, NOR USED IN ANY MANNER WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT FROM OSCAR CONTROLS."

and that

"All images and contents are copyrighted and may not be copied or distributed in any way.
Custom graphics and custom MAME designs are copyrighted and may not be used on other web sites without prior written consent from Oscar Controls."

thus they broke a copyright.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 20, 2005, 10:46:00 pm
That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.

Yeah, no kidding.  If he could manage to win it, he'll probably be looking to collect money from people who have used it in the past as some kind of retroactive licensing thing.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 20, 2005, 10:48:56 pm
The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.

That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.



patents do not equal trademarks.  Stop thinking this is a patent issue.  Completely different laws!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 20, 2005, 10:51:11 pm
I submitted my email to the trademark office.  Recommend you do the same.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 12:06:38 am
Found this on the trademark site

Quote
Do I have to be a U.S. citizen to apply?

No. However, if you do not reside in the United States, you may appoint a "domestic representative" as part of the application process (see below).

Nicola, or another mamedev could put in an application, that should at least force the trademark office to figure it out.

Looks like the filing fee is $75 for a small entity, or $300 regular.  There are a lot of different fees listed so I don't know if there would be extra costs involved.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 12:10:42 am
Never fear you guys this will get stomped at the USPTO.  So you know there are several things you can trademark:

including

A name (ex. xerox or in this case MAME)
A design (the NIKE swoosh or the stylistic way MAME is drawn)
there are many other ways to to claim things

but no matter what, this will get examined.  Yes, trade usage is important, but this isn't novel usage.  He won't get a R without examination.  He won't get a TM without lots of use that is associated with his product only.  If this gets through, we can force a re-exam.  Also, if his counsel is listed on the PTO sight, and they probably are, simply notifying the responsible attorney should bring this to a grinding hault.  An attorney MUST have a "good faith" belief that this is deserving a trademark or he is violating his ethical duty and can be disbarred for inequitable conduct.  To show inequitable conduct you must show intent and materiality, the more material, the less intent is needed.  See where I'm going with this. This is really material stuff (the existance of all this mame "art").  Also, by contacting the attorney he has been put on notice of art, even if he took Mr. Ultracade's word there wasn't anything out there, now he knows better and is duty bound to inform the patent office, or once again he can be disbarred.  Being disbarred is a great motvator and WILL get the attorney to tell the patent office what he knows.

As an aside, those who originated the name and any designs, please trademark this outside the US too.  A trademark in the US only works in the US, let's nip this in the bud.

I swear when I get time I'm gonna right a MAMErs guide to Patents, Trademark, and Copyrights.

Patent Doc
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 12:17:51 am
From the USPTO entry for Mr. Ultracade's filing;

Attorney of Record Lee Hagelshaw

I assume it is fairly easy to find his address as he should be a member of the Calif Bar.

EDIT AGAIN: There ya go: http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=99742

Contact Info
Address 350 Townsend St #406
San Francisco, CA 94107
Phone Number (415)615-9300
Fax Number (415)615-9301
lhagelshaw@aol.com
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ften on February 21, 2005, 12:24:26 am
He doesn't have a chance in hell to win, with all the references to MAME on the internet predating Ultracade. You know there have to be MAME users at the USPTO who are laughing at this guy right now.
Anyway I'd donate all i could spare to fight this, if push came to shove.

-FTen
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 12:30:29 am
1hookedspacecadet

Quote
Can I assume "Patent Doc" is a lawyer?

Yeah, but I haven't done any trademark work.  Also exnay on the awyerlay.  Copyright issues with ROMS you know. ;) Anyway, I do strictly patent work.  My firm has a few trademark people and what I know about trademarks is based on siminars and talking with those people.  That beign said all the stuff about the attorney's knowing stuff is universal to intellectual property.

Trademark stuff is dicey for me to do to much on because I don't want to be found practicing law in a state I'm not licensed in (BIG NO NO).  However, that won't stop me or anyone else from say....contacting an attorney...say Mr.  Hagleshaw or even an Examiner (we have a right to do this)

By the way, has the rain stopped in Fulton, Co.  It's still raining over here in Dunwoody.

By the way, nice digging on the trademark info and attorneys name.  I'm slammed until Tuesday morning, but I'll try to see what I can get access to on PAIR (patent office info system) and I'll post to MAME.net and here tomorrow. 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 12:37:12 am
I am sure any info you can come up with would be great.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 12:44:17 am
Quote
On contacting the attorney, would it be helpful for him to recieve multiple emails / notifications regarding the MAME logo and name?

A FEW letters/e-mails would probably be helpful, but don't slam the attorney.  Heck, this guy probably has no clue.  It's not his fault, and we really don't want to piss him off without cause.

I will check with my trademark people and let you know the best option tomorrow (um..today...damn I got to get back to work).

later
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: duffjr on February 21, 2005, 01:15:44 am
anyone mention that ultracade machines are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and have worthless games?  50 useless capcom games other than street fighter or megaman...plus you have to deposit a quarter before seeing the gamelist...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 03:49:03 am
I can understand people's concerns but surely since MAME in its wider form is almost exclusively supported by online communities the backlash to this sort of action (whether it is successful or not) would result in Ultracade going out of business?.

An alternative would be for Nicolas Salmoria to obtain the patent and TM for the MAME code and simply order Ultracade to cease using it in a commercial capacity, effectively burying his business. I know there would be no shortage of people willing to help him fund it, myself included.

Surely the word MAME is in the public domain after so many years of general use?. It would be like trying to TM the words United States.

I'm based in the UK and will be keeping a close eye on this one, if this moron decides to bring his ideas over the pond we will need to start beating some bushes over here.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 04:30:34 am
Here's a couple more he's tring for.

Multicade s/n    76629621
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76629621

Arcade Legends s/n 76611855
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76611855

I changed the links to the status pages, hopefully these wont expire.  Serial numbers added in case they do (Thanks for letting me know they expired emdkay).  I found them searching for "Lee Hagelshaw" in the boolean search.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 21, 2005, 04:58:48 am
I've also been contacted by this hack requesting that I pay royalties to use a trademark that isn't his, nor has it even been approved yet
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mdekkers on February 21, 2005, 06:41:04 am
I sent the following email to the trademark office, I suggest that people who care copy and paste, and do the same:

From:
To: TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov
CC: lhagelshaw@aol.com, david.foley@ultracade.com
Subject: Trademark Application 76627578

CC: Lee Hagelshaw, Attorney of Record, David Foley, Applicant

Dear sirs,

I write to you with respect to trademark application 76627578 - "MAME
MULTIPLE ARCADE EMULATOR".

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I am longstanding
user of a product that goes by the same name, sporting the same logo. I
can, however, assure you that as far as I am aware, there is no
affiliation between the original authors of MAME, and the individual or
organisation attempting to trademark this name and logo.

You may wish to note that the marque in question appears to have been
designed by an unrelated individual, and appears to have been under
copyright since 2003. I refer you to
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/gallery01.htm
Please note the following limited usage statement on the quoted page:

"THE ABOVE DOWNLOADABLE IMAGES ARE PROVIDED IN CONFIDENCE FOR THE
LIMITED PURPOSE FOR PERSONAL PRINTING AND ARE NOT TO BE REPRODUCED NOR
COPIED IN WHOLE OR IN PART NOR LOANED OR OTHERWISE COMMUNICATED TO ANY
THIRD PARTY, NOR USED IN ANY MANNER WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT FROM
OSCAR CONTROLS."

Clearly, the quoted marque application seems to violate these terms of
usage.

Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, said logo has been in use, for
many years, in a commercial manner in many forms. First of all, I would
like to inform you that at http://www.mamemarquees.com/ the marque
itself is for sale in the form of stick-on marquees. mamemarquees.com is
one of many sites selling a similar service. Moreover, many sites, such
as http://www.mameworld.com rely in part on the MAME marque for
advertisement revenue. In other words, there is widespread - although
low-level - commercial use of the MAME marque, in logo as well as text
form.

In closing, I would like to inform you that MAME is a so-called "Open
Source" project, meaning that the project, the work performed by this
project, and any arts, intellectual properties, and other related
results of productive work has mainly been performed by individuals on a
volunteer basis. These people volunteer their time, skills, and
knowledge out of passion for what they do, and make their core work -
The MAME application suite - available free of charge, in source code
form, for all to use.

This is very similar to making the work available within the public
domain, but not exactly, since Open Source Software typically places
some obligations onto the user in terms of under what circumstances the
work may be re-distributed. This is to protect the work from being
"stolen". More information about open source software is available at
http://www.opensource.org/ The precise license terms of the MAME body of
work can be found here: http://www.mame.net/readme.html

I trust to have given you plenty of information to assist in your
handling of the stated application, and am sure that in the face of the
information provided to you by myself, and no doubt others, that the
said application will be duly rejected. Should you require any
adittional information or comments, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: gprime on February 21, 2005, 06:45:40 am
He's replied to the whole situation in 2 letters:

http://www.ultracade.com/ (right on the front).

Although he's not doing it the right way, it looks like he's just trying to stamp out MAME piracy.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mdekkers on February 21, 2005, 06:52:17 am
Well, I can't actually enter his site - either because his flash is kaput, or more likely because this is a frontpage slashdot story, so his server is likely to be big melting smoking pile of scrap iron by now - nevertheless, i think that given the threats of royalties or else... he is more likely to just want to make some money off this.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Bones on February 21, 2005, 06:54:05 am
His comments look 3/4 reasonable. Looks like he just wants "apples for apples" comparison when advertising cabs for sale.

I really don't see how it could be worth the expense to attempt to enforce it and anything like this that attracts attention to the whole MAME hobby/business is probably not a good thing.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: gprime on February 21, 2005, 06:57:44 am
In case his site is down:

http://www.gprime.net/ultracade/

Quote
February 21, 2005
Like most things that are spread by rumor, the facts about me, UltraCade Technologies, and the M.A.M.E.
emulation system are quite distorted. I will try and educate anyone who cares to listen about the reality of our
marketplace and what we are doing and what we are not. Simply put, we are making an effort to stamp out the
commercial sales of M.A.M.E. based systems that advertise the ability to play thousands of games while relying on
the customer to obtain the ROMs which can not legally be obtained. What we are not doing is trying to claim
ownership of the M.A.M.E. open source emulator or sue its authors. We are concerned about the commercial
marketplace, and not the readers of the many M.A.M.E. user groups and forums.
I have been working on emulation technology since the mid 80
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 07:01:55 am
I just tried it and his extremely annoying flash was working fine, but I didn't find the letters.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: gprime on February 21, 2005, 07:07:32 am
I just tried it and his extremely annoying flash was working fine, but I didn't find the letters.

Paul

There are direct links to the PDFs on the very front of the page. They are not in the flash section.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mdekkers on February 21, 2005, 07:09:37 am
Well, thanks for posting those letters. The synopsis my mind created when reading them is something like:

"We make stuff to sell to people. Other people make something similar, but use an open source component to do this. Because of this and some other reasons not related to the open source bits, they can make their product cheaper then ours (knowing open source, it's probably better then his as well). We don't like this, because now we are forced into a position of competition. In order to stop this, we are claiming trademarks, but we promise to only use it on the bad guys."

Meanwhile back in the real world, there are several real problems with this:

1.) The names and logo's clearly are not his to trademark !!
2.) If you don't vigorously enforce your trademark, you are exposed, as you may stand to lose it come a legal challenge
3.) The names and logo's clearly are not his to trademark !!
4.) He has been trying to enforce it already, on relatively innocent bystanders
5.) The names and logo's clearly are not his to trademark !!

In short, I smell BS.....

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: gprime on February 21, 2005, 07:18:00 am
I don't even think he's got a chance of successfully registering the MAME trademark. Clearly the MAME project has been using it longer than he has, and the logos aren't even his. With hundreds of Slashdotters emailing their opinions to the appriopriate people, surely it will be rejected.

It blows my mind how he thinks to come off the "good guy" by registering someone elses trademark. I mean, why not ask the MAME guys to do this, if you're really just trying to protect the community from piracy.

If he does win the rights to the trademark, then something is definately not right.

Quote
4.) He has been trying to enforce it already, on relatively innocent bystanders

Does anyone know how extreme he is when it comes to eBay and MAME. I agree with fighting auctions selling ROMs, but does he try to remove auctions with regular (legal) hardware ? (ie, MAME cabinets without ROMs, and without implying they get "free roms" with it).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 07:38:39 am
Just read both of his 'responses'.

So what he is actually trying to do is eradicate any legal competition to his organisation or products.

By the same argument Toshiba should immediately stop anyone else from selling TV's or DVD players since they might concievably be used to run or view pirate material......correct me if i'm wrong anyone.

Other vendors selling fully functional MAME machines or the technology that makes them possible is not committing any kind of offence or breaking any trade law as far as I am aware so long as they are not involved with the distribution of illegal roms.

He's not trying to protect his interests or his business, he is trying to put his competitors out of business and pervert everything that the open source MAME community stands for. Regardless of any assertations he might make, if he gains control of the MAME trademark it will only be a matter of time before everyone is expected to pay for the privelidge of using anything relating to it....he's simply trying to cash in.

I'm not a vendor, I don't sell anything MAME related or otherwise, I don't buy or download pirated software. I appreciate MAME for the reasons it was intended, I'm just another home-brew enthusiast and regardless of any assertations he makes I think what he is doing is disgusting and hope he and his company quickly fall flat on their arse.

Should he decide to continue with his current course of action I think some kind of organised opposition is in order. The MAME community is surely large enough and resourceful enough to polarise opinion into positive action to the detriment of this despicable individuals business.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 07:40:34 am
Thanks for posting the letters, I still don't see the link on his page.

His argument does sound plausible when he states it, but it doesn't seem to hold up well.

First of all, no matter what he wants to accomplish, he has no right to try to trademark someone elses work.

Second, reread emdkays post a few posts back.  Foley contacted him trying to get royalties, not trying to stop the spread of "MAME piracy".  Emdkay doesn't even do what Foley complains about in his letter.  Emdkay offers an artwork printing service to the hobbyists.  According to Foley's letter, this is not who he is trying to go after.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 07:44:23 am
His comments look 3/4 reasonable. Looks like he just wants "apples for apples" comparison when advertising cabs for sale.

I really don't see how it could be worth the expense to attempt to enforce it and anything like this that attracts attention to the whole MAME hobby/business is probably not a good thing.

Then what he should be doing is taking action against vendors of illegal roms that he owns the copyright or distribution rights to. This doesn't give him a licence to steal someone elses IP because he's making money from the same idea.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 07:47:25 am
Thanks for posting the letters, I still don't see the link on his page.

His argument does sound plausible when he states it, but it doesn't seem to hold up well.

First of all, no matter what he wants to accomplish, he has no right to try to trademark someone elses work.

Second, reread emdkays post a few posts back. Foley contacted him trying to get royalties, not trying to stop the spread of "MAME piracy". Emdkay doesn't even do what Foley complains about in his letter. Emdkay offers an artwork printing service to the hobbyists. According to Foley's letter, this is not who he is trying to go after.

Paul

Probably the most important and relevant point in the entire thread. The guy has already struck his colours and if he is allowed to proceed it could be the beginning of the end for the entire community.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: menace on February 21, 2005, 08:08:59 am
This is probably the most short sited venture I've ever seen.  First there is no way the guy can get a patent on others work--even a modicum of back ground work will confirm that and secondly, he has just now made it plainly obvious that he is a sleaze-oid trying to make money from others work, and will be referred to as such in all mame and arcade circles--How far do you think ultimarc or oscar controls would have got had they gone this route? 

This guy so needs an --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- kicking--if he's going to ebay and stopping legitimate auctions or crying foul to emdkay and others, I would hope that something could be done about that.  Ideas?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 08:50:42 am
I don't know.  I put my cab up on ebay to see if I get a response from them. ($3000 shipping so I don't accidentally lose it  ;D)

OT:  Did I spell response right?  This, and responce both pass the spell checker  ???
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 08:55:41 am
I'm no lawyer but I thought if an individual tries to obtain a royalty from someone's work in full recognition of the fact that they hold no rights to that work then that individual can file for damages. Surely it constitutes fraud?.

Could be wrong though.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Lilwolf on February 21, 2005, 08:56:29 am
I don't like how hes doing it...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 21, 2005, 09:00:34 am
Any lawyers in the house?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 09:06:31 am
But it would appear that he's not trying to stop people using MAME in a commercial capacity, he's just trying to steal the TM so he can cash in on anyone who does.

I don't think anyone on here would deny someone their right to protect their business from piracy or help support moves to eliminate piracy. So surely Mr Foley should be actively targeting people selling illegal roms or machines containing them, not anyone providing a service to the home-brew community. And certainly not trying to obtain money from anyone using the MAME name or logo.

It seems that the vast majority of people who are making money in this community seem to be
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: walls83 on February 21, 2005, 09:36:17 am
Thats it I call the brother/Sister hood to arms. 


Its time to go to war.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: jcoleman on February 21, 2005, 09:48:53 am
Note this in his "Open Offer to the MAME Community":

Quote
We have no desire to use the M.A.M.E. name or logos; we simply wish to find ways to prevent illegal distribution of classic arcade games.

That is what, in the legal profession (though IANAL), they call "bad faith."  You can't trademark something in order to prevent other people from using it, you have to trademark it because *you* intend to use it.  He's likely already killed his application simply for this reason.

Has anyone seen any comments from the MAME Dev Team on the subject?

Coleman
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: APFelon on February 21, 2005, 10:19:27 am
This is from R. Belmont:

Mame.Net Forums Link (http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168488&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=7#Post168488)


Quote
According to a post by Kevin Steele on alt.games.mame, Foley is already threatening eBay auctions which mention MAME (e.g. Dream Ultimates cabinet kits), and he plans to sue MAMEdev (and Razoola?) over the CPS-2 XOR scheme. Make of that what you will.

I don't have access to that group through either of my NSPs, so I can't verify Belmont's source.

APf
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 21, 2005, 10:20:22 am
There's a thread on the MAME website forums, but I haven't seen an official comment from the MAMEdevs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 21, 2005, 10:37:27 am
My email correspondence with Mr David Foley:

Message #1:

Comments: Your use of the MAME name and MAME logo is a violation of our registered trademark (USPTO Reg # 76627578).  Rather than proceed with legal action against you and your company, and getting lawyers involved, we would like to resolve this directly.  Please contact me by Wednsday to discuss.  David R. Foley, CEO UltraCade Technologies. 

My reply to message #1:

I remember looking up the Mame logo and it had a "dead" indicator
meaning it wasn't registered.  I just print arcade marquees for enthusiasts'
cabinets.  What information do you need from me, or what are you
requesting?

Regards,
Brent Bilis






Message #2:

It's not dead, and we own it.  If you would like to pay us a royalty on the
graphics that you print, then we could probably come to some compromise.


My reply to message #2:

What type of fee structure are you considering? 

Regards,
Brent Bilis





Message #3:

What do you sell them for, what is your cost of goods?

My reply to message #3:

I see that your status on the Mame logo as a trademark is only pending, and has not actually been granted.  The USPTO Reg # you posted below clearly states that your new application is pending - how could you state that you own it?  The US Patent and Trademark Office must not condone someone stating that they own a trademark when it is in this status.  It can be said with certainty that ultracade is not the proprietor of the Mame logo.  I'm certain that you're familiar with Nicola Salmoria.  I don't think it would be wise to discuss royalties until you have actually been granted the trademark, wouldn't you agree?   I will have to contact the attorney assigned to this trademark showing details of the Mame logo existing before ultracade along with your claim of ownership before considering any sort of royalty fees.

Regards,
Brent Bilis





Message #4:

I
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 21, 2005, 10:41:37 am
I hope you posted this on the MAME forums as well.  This pretty much shows his true intentions of attempting to acquire the MAME trademarks.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 10:44:33 am
This guy is looking to line his pockets with $$$ by exploiting the hard work of the MAMEDevs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 10:45:09 am
Wow, talk about the flip flop -


Message #2:


"It's not dead, and we own it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 10:48:45 am
THE NEW MAME LOGO!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 11:07:56 am
Some said it best on the MAMEWORLD forum. 

Mame has hurt the sales of his UltraCab and since he can't compete with MAME, he's trying to cash in on MAME's sucesses.

What's next for Ultracab?  Is he going to sue anyone who has made their own Arcade System at home?

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 11:13:18 am
isn't MAME a musical way way way back....So the name MAME was already existed and wonder what shes got to say ?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mnm1200 on February 21, 2005, 11:14:04 am
IANAL but...

I would like to point out:
USC TITLE 15 CHAPTER 22 SUBCHAPTER I
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 21, 2005, 11:16:37 am
What I don't think is being considered in his letters is the fact that...

* - That the MAME logo sells nothing.
B - The ROMS and whatnot are already out there. Who appointed him as the defender of the original authors legal rights?
Q - MAME doesn't compete with Ultracade, being that Ultracade is really a commerical use product and MAME is a personal use freeware program.
4 - That HK and pirate boards/games have and always shall be, if they weren't using MAME I bet they'd be using "Lucky 8" or whatever the hell he claims Ultracade came from, since he OBVIOUSLY didn't use MAME as the basis of Ultracade.  ;)

So whatever. His trying for this trademark needs to be denied.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 11:21:22 am
... since he OBVIOUSLY didn't use MAME as the basis of Ultracade.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 21, 2005, 11:23:20 am
This is from R. Belmont:

Mame.Net Forum Link (http://ttp://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168488&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=7#Post168488)


Quote
According to a post by Kevin Steele on alt.games.mame, Foley is already threatening eBay auctions which mention MAME (e.g. Dream Ultimates cabinet kits), and he plans to sue MAMEdev (and Razoola?) over the CPS-2 XOR scheme. Make of that what you will.

I don't have access to that group through either of my NSPs, so I can't verify Belmont's source.

APf


I've been a bit misquoted. Here's my post on alt.game.mame:

It looks like David Foley of Ultracade filed for a trademark on January
11th, 2005 for both "MAME" and "Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator", and
has hired lawyers in both the US and UK to go after anyone using the
terms, starting with auctions on eBay (apparently, a Dream Arcades
cabinet auction was pulled because it mentioned MAME...)

In addition, it looks like Mr. Foley may be going after the MAME
emulator itself, claiming that the code that circumvents copy protection
in the CP32 emulation violates the law and is illegal.

This story is just breaking, but I'll report what I find as soon as I
know more...

- - - - - -

This is based on emails I've seen from Mr. Foley, including the following quote:

"While the MAME software is open source, the trademark is not.  Open source
also does not mean that MAME and it's code is not violating many copyrights
and patents.  Furthermore, any games the circumvent copy protection, such as
CPS2 games, can not be legally emulated unless a specific license (such as
we have from Capcom) is obtained, therefore, any distribution of MAME that
supports CPS2 games is illegal."

His true colors are coming out, and his "open arms" to the MAME community are concealing daggers...

Kevin
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 21, 2005, 11:24:38 am
I remember in early Ultracades the CPS emulation was remarkably similar to Callus. Same little glitches... eevrything.

I'll bet Ultracade is cobbled together from every other "free" emulator on the net.  :P
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 11:37:10 am
Seems that the news needs to be distributed as widely as possible and perhaps lobbying for a wholesale boycott of his products is in order.

Seems likely that a large proportion of his business might come from the retro-games community and in the absence of his apparent willingness to change tack it's down to everyone to vote with their feet (and wallets).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: walls83 on February 21, 2005, 11:47:25 am
Well hes got a new letter out.

http://www.ultracade.com/openoffer.pdf

He will withdraw the application if mame helps him to stop commercial use of mame.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 21, 2005, 11:55:43 am
Quote
We will be happy to cancel our application and work with the M.A.M.E. team to assign it to its rightful owners; however we do want to prevent it from being awarded to someone that intends to use it commercially.

I find this part humorous.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 11:57:57 am
Well hes got a new letter out.

http://www.ultracade.com/openoffer.pdf

He will withdraw the application if mame helps him to stop commercial use of mame.

I think him cancelling the application is a forgone conclusion.  Hopefully the Mame folks will use thier own resources to protect the logo and name.  He need not be involved, consulted, or otherwise a part of the process.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: walls83 on February 21, 2005, 11:58:32 am
I think he thought that he could just roll over people but I dont think he realized how many people would come back at him.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 21, 2005, 12:06:27 pm
To:  TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov
Cc:  lhagelshaw@aol.com, david.foley@ultracade.com

Subject:  Trademark Application 76627578

CC: Lee Hagelshaw, Attorney of Record, David Foley, Applicant

Dear Sirs,

It has come to my attention that there is a pending trademark application pending, Re: (76627578) "MAME - MULTIPLE ARCADE MACHINE EMULATOR".  I have been aware of MAME for years prior to the inception of David Foley's organization.  Examples of the long existence of MAME prior to David Foley's claims of ownership can easily be found by visiting Mame.net.  I also feel it necessary to state that I have been contacted by David Foley requesting that I pay him royalties on artwork that I print containing the Mame logo.  I found this very troubling as Mr Foley is not the owner of this Trademark.  The application is still in the pending status.  As stated in USC TITLE 15 CHAPTER 22 SUBCHAPTER I
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 21, 2005, 12:14:58 pm
I don't like how hes doing it...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 12:19:42 pm
To:
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KC on February 21, 2005, 12:37:53 pm
Hmmm, this seems to be the most intelligent discussion I've seen on the topic so far. :)

To add to the prior (commercial) use argument: Ever since the first X-Arcade hit the market it had the MAMEWorld logo on the box. Now the MAMEWorld logo always had thre MAME styled letters as part of text.

Surely this is prior commmercial use...? Amongst all the otjer use that's been out there for years.

KC

www.mameworld.net
You know it makes sense!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 21, 2005, 12:41:44 pm
Quote


Remember to send a certified letter as well.  Email can be "lost."


Good point - I'm already on it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: APFelon on February 21, 2005, 12:44:41 pm
Well, despite all of the white noise surrounding this topic, one thing has been made perfectly clear. I think it would be wise to "shout from the rooftops" that no one should do business with such an unethical person. He made his gambit, and it clearly came back to strike him in the backside. Perhaps it is time to make ours...

APf
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 21, 2005, 12:47:40 pm
Remember to send a certified letter as well.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 21, 2005, 12:48:35 pm
Well, despite all of the white noise surrounding this topic, one thing has been made perfectly clear. I think it would be wise to "shout from the rooftops" that no one should do business with such an unethical person.

Amen brother!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 12:51:51 pm
Received this response from him this afternoon after I raised a few questions about them already trying to bully vendors who had no links to the distribution or promotion of illegal roms in complete contradiction of his apparent love for the community.

Quote
You don
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: walls83 on February 21, 2005, 12:55:00 pm
he has backed out of alot of statements hes made.  I want to find someone with an Ultracade and see what kind of emulator he is running.  I bet he just changed somethings in the MAME program.  Or he just took abunch of emulators and rolled them all up into one.  Also the FE that they use looks very familiar but I cant place it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 12:55:34 pm
Received this response from him this afternoon after I raised a few questions about them already trying to bully vendors who had no links to the distribution or promotion of illegal roms in complete contradiction of his apparent love for the community.

Quote
You don
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 21, 2005, 01:05:13 pm
Quote
You don
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: scottp on February 21, 2005, 01:10:57 pm
WOW.... go away for a weekend with no Internet access and look what happens.   

Mr Folly also is trying to extort money from me:

"Please contact me immeadiately to discuss your unlicensed use of our registrered trademarks. I would much rather come to a licensing agreement than to shut you down, but we must discuss immeadiately or we will have to pursue legal matters."

I replied to him before I read these messages.

"Hey David, I just got back from a short vacation with no email / internet. 
I have permission from Kelsey over at Oscar controls to use his logo.  On artwork there is an implied copyright from the artist and as long as he gives permission or is paid for the right to use it then it can be used.

Your threat above does come in direct confliction from what you stated on your website about "no desire to use the M.A.M.E name or logos, we simply wish to find ways to prevent illegal distribution of classic arcade games"  It seems like you also wish to profit from this by getting money out of sites like mine...

Looking forward to your response"


Scott Prior
www.mamemarquees.com (http://www.mamemarquees.com)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mahuti on February 21, 2005, 01:14:00 pm
ech....
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 01:14:12 pm
Quote
"Please contact me immeadiately to discuss your unlicensed use of our registrered trademarks. I would much rather come to a licensing agreement than to shut you down, but we must discuss immeadiately or we will have to pursue legal matters."
The funny thing is it isn't a registered trademark yet!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 01:17:06 pm
WOW.... go away for a weekend with no Internet access and look what happens.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 01:17:28 pm
Quote
You don
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 01:18:28 pm
WOW.... go away for a weekend with no Internet access and look what happens.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 01:19:03 pm
A MAME cab is just like an ipod.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: walls83 on February 21, 2005, 01:19:11 pm
"I am available to work with the community to ensure that this happens, and to help get more games made available to the community at a reasonable price."-ultracade website

Have you guys seen how much he charges for games.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 01:21:14 pm
"I am available to work with the community to ensure that this happens, and to help get more games made available to the community at a reasonable price."-ultracade website

Have you guys seen how much he charges for games.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 01:27:06 pm
Nother one.

Quote
If we did not file this mark, someone else could have and then claimed it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 01:29:13 pm
Well, despite all of the white noise surrounding this topic, one thing has been made perfectly clear. I think it would be wise to "shout from the rooftops" that no one should do business with such an unethical person. He made his gambit, and it clearly came back to strike him in the backside. Perhaps it is time to make ours...

APf



Let got the Ultracade Cabinets and MAME it :)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 01:31:08 pm
Well, despite all of the white noise surrounding this topic, one thing has been made perfectly clear. I think it would be wise to "shout from the rooftops" that no one should do business with such an unethical person. He made his gambit, and it clearly came back to strike him in the backside. Perhaps it is time to make ours...

APf



Let got the Ultracade Cabinets and MAME it :)

Funny, but ultracade's main product is a kit to put in your existing jamma cabinet.

I know he's blaming mame for his sales slump, I think it is more of the fact of the prices.  Cut the price in half and you have something that looks attractive in a commercial environment.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 01:42:17 pm
Emdkay:
[/size]

 You should send in your emailed conversation to slashdot.  They'll put it on the top of the page.  (good advertising for you and it will make the point on what this guy is trying to accomplish).  The readers over there can help a LOT in a situation like this.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 01:43:53 pm
I don't think it computes that by attempting to eliminate MAME people still won't buy his products because they are priced way outside the resources of 99% of the hobbiest market.

I know they may have paid through the nose for the rights to the games that they distribute but those rights aren't worth the paper they are printed on if their products aren't competetively priced.

People who don't buy Ultracade aren't avoiding it because MAME cabs are cheaper, they are avoiding it because their prices are stratospherically unrealistic for the home market. Even without MAME as a competitor, how many people on these forums could afford to buy the cabinets and games at Ultracade prices?.....anyone?. People would simply switch to the much cheaper JAMMA/PCB market instead.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 01:44:33 pm
Has anyone gotten a response from Mr. Hagelshaw yet?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: dmsuchy on February 21, 2005, 01:46:36 pm
This guy is insane, and I like the comparison of an Ipod and a MAME cab. Is it really wrong to advertise a cab that says it can play 4000 games, when it really can legally? What if you personally own a bunch of boards of various games? Don't ya legally own the game and can use it comercially or otherwise in a cab you built? And if this guy is just trying to stamp out piratcy of games, then why does he keep hitting up printers of marquees for cash? This guy is what we call a "jag-off" here in Chicago and is obviously talking out of his --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules--.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 21, 2005, 01:59:16 pm
You know, the funny thing is that if he hadn't started this salvo of threatening letters and just waited until the Trademark was approved, we'd all be up the creek.

It's only the fact that his application was discovered while it's still pending that we have as much of a chance as we do of getting it thrown out...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: itismejs on February 21, 2005, 02:02:18 pm
Does apple lie when they dont mention it will take 10,000 dollars to fill up a 20GB ipod using itunes?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: FractalWalk on February 21, 2005, 02:02:37 pm
Is it really wrong to advertise a cab that says it can play 4000 games, when it really can legally?

Just to play devils' advocate, his point is that you can't do it legally. To play 4,000 games you would have to break the law. While I don't agree with his actions, I think the point is valid.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 02:06:42 pm
Is it really wrong to advertise a cab that says it can play 4000 games, when it really can legally?

Just to play devils' advocate, his point is that you can't do it legally. To play 4,000 games you would have to break the law. While I don't agree with his actions, I think the point is valid.

Unless you owned 4000 boardsets...
This guy is insane, and I like the comparison of an Ipod and a MAME cab. Is it really wrong to advertise a cab that says it can play 4000 games, when it really can legally? What if you personally own a bunch of boards of various games? Don't ya legally own the game and can use it comercially or otherwise in a cab you built? And if this guy is just trying to stamp out piratcy of games, then why does he keep hitting up printers of marquees for cash? This guy is what we call a "jag-off" here in Chicago and is obviously talking out of his --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules--.

I call what he tried on Emdkay extortion.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Daniel270 on February 21, 2005, 02:07:57 pm
It's a noble idea to stamp out piracy and such.... but a VERY POOR execution of that idea....

Might as well stamp out the console market while he's at it... might help boost his sales ::)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: solfood on February 21, 2005, 02:09:30 pm
his personal web site davidrfoley.com seems to have been slashdotted.

feel free to write him a letter though:

David R. Foley
1281 Wayne Avenue
San Jose, CA 95131
United States

And His Lawyer seems to be:
Lee Hagelshaw (Attorney of record)

LEE HAGELSHAW
LEE HAGELSHAW OF TECH LAW
350 TOWNSEND STREET SUITE 406
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94107

Phone Number: (415) 615-9300
Fax Number: (415) 615-9301
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DarkKobold on February 21, 2005, 02:14:58 pm
Quote
Well, I sent the following email to the trademark office. I suggest others do the same ...
There is a correct way to bring such things to the attention of the Trademark Office, and this is not it.

The constructive next step is to monitor the status of the application, and when it gets "published for opposition" then file an opposition [uspto.gov].
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmep/1500.htm#_Toc536249467

One convenient way to monitor the status of a pending US trademark application is by means of free software called Feathers [patents.com].
http://www.patents.com/feathers/

Thats from slashdot. Nicola needs to get his ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- together. BTW, to recap:
1. YOU DONT NEED TO FILE FOR A PATENT TO BE PROTECTED
2. COPYRIGHT != PATENT
3. IT IS NOT YET REGISTERED!

David Santoro actually asked the designer, and got permission to use the MAME logo on the tokens. SHE IS THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR. Yeesh. If anything, we should be emailing everyone using the MAME logo to protect them. They may be getting extorted as we speak.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ROM: Spaceknight on February 21, 2005, 02:15:53 pm
Guess he went after DreamArcades as well.

Link (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=25261&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&new=1108953856)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ROM: Spaceknight on February 21, 2005, 02:16:40 pm
One more thing that could possibly be done in the interim is contact eBay and notify them that someone on their VERO program isn't who they claim to be...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DreamArcades on February 21, 2005, 02:21:43 pm
David Foley successfully lobbied Ebay to shutdown my Cocktail arcade kit auctions last night. He said I was using illegally using MAME as a keyword. Here
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mnm1200 on February 21, 2005, 02:27:52 pm
David Foley successfully lobbied Ebay to shutdown my Cocktail arcade kit auctions last night. He said I was using illegally using MAME as a keyword. Here
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 21, 2005, 02:28:14 pm
Here is the situation as I see it (in broad strokes):

1) Mr. Foley has decided to make his stand and shakeup a community of hobbyists. I will not attempt to go inside of his head and guess at his personal motivations.

2) Whatever his motivations are (money, personal satisfaction, morals, etc...), he represents a threat to the hobby that we all know and love.

3) He has initiated a canvasing campaign towards the various hobby-related vendors in an attempt to exthort money.

The remedy?

1) There needs to be an unprecedented banding together of all involved: a) The Vendors (Oscar, Emdkay, Mamemarquees, Slikstik, etc...) b) The Programmers (Nicola, Aaron Giles, etc...) c) The authors & webmasters (shameless plug for Saint's book) d) The hobbyists e) The artist of the MAME logo

2) We need to find out if there's an attorney within the BYOAC community who would be able to serve as an advisor

3) Create a united opposition

I'm probably just re-stating the obvious.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ROM: Spaceknight on February 21, 2005, 02:36:22 pm
Just sent this to eBay's VeRO program:

Topics > Safe Trading > If Something Goes Wrong
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 02:42:43 pm
Is it really wrong to advertise a cab that says it can play 4000 games, when it really can legally?

Just to play devils' advocate, his point is that you can't do it legally. To play 4,000 games you would have to break the law. While I don't agree with his actions, I think the point is valid.

Many have mentioned the 4000 games issue concerning you can't play 4000 games legally.  This is not true.  There are 1000's of freeware games for Windows and DOS.  They are free and legal.  A MAME cabinet is usually based on an Intel compatible CPU.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mahuti on February 21, 2005, 02:44:41 pm
He's forgetting about StarRoms. Those run on MAME just fine, as well as Robby Roto, etc. And those are perfectly legit. Just becaue there are bootleg CDs floating around, doesn't make CD players illegal. That same argument... 90% of MP3s are either ripped from peoples' own CDs or they're illegal. That doesn't make MP3 player software guilty of inciting piracy (i.e. iTunes, etc)


Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 02:47:01 pm
That is a good point.  You can play over 4000 games legally on a "mame" cabinet.  It doesn't have to be through mame....
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 02:49:07 pm
If he suceeds.  The MAME project will just go underground and probably change the name of the project.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 02:51:08 pm
Mr. Foley's reason for doing what he did doesn't justify filing a trademark for something he didn't create.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 02:51:53 pm
How many people work at Ultracade??? I mean is it a big company or it just Dave and a couple of buddy's?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 02:52:03 pm
MAME isn't legal, and never will be. This is very similar to when Napster was shut down.
...
but as long as you are selling a machine with an engine that has no legal path to use, we will object.

This is a false statement.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 02:52:33 pm
His argument is that StarROMs doesn't count because you can't transfer the license for ROMs purchased from StarROMs, so you can't sell a cabinet with StarROMs ROMs on it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 02:54:06 pm
He also cited that it was similar to the situation with Napster but the two situations are very different.

Napster was dealing in properties that were widely and commercially available and the legal action was backed by the money and weight of the music industry and affected hundreds of interested artists/parties.

MAME deals with a niche market and doesn't support mainstream or commercially available properties and without it, it is arguable whether there would be a market for Ultracade to work in at all. There appears to be a single company (Ultracade)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 02:54:26 pm
Does anyone else remember when Atari released the arcade games they ported to DOS into the public domain?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 02:54:58 pm
His argument is that StarROMs doesn't count because you can't transfer the license for ROMs purchased from StarROMs, so you can't sell a cabinet with StarROMs ROMs on it.

what people do then is register the buyers name tot he roms.  That is legal.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Santoro on February 21, 2005, 02:55:33 pm
His argument is that StarROMs doesn't count because you can't transfer the license for ROMs purchased from StarROMs, so you can't sell a cabinet with StarROMs ROMs on it.

You can if you purchase the ROMS in advance in the buyer's name.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 02:56:08 pm
He also cited that it was similar to the situation with Napster but the two situations are very different.

Also Napster is a file sharing program, Mame is an emulator.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 02:56:17 pm
mame.net WHOIS info

Domain Name: MAME.NET
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: dmsuchy on February 21, 2005, 02:59:57 pm
Mahuti is correct, we all know this jag is off his rocker but we need to contact ebay so they don't continue to support his propaganda! If I ever sold my cab on ebay I would want to list it stating it can play well over a thousand games and supports MAME and not worry that it will be pulled off because some idiot is worried that it would hurt his sales. I still can't get over the fact that he hides behind a banner of protecting copy righted games and then ask for some pay offs from the marquee printers to use the MAME logo. I'm sure there are programmers out there that could make 4000 little game roms just so you could LEGALLY say you can have 4000 games running on your machine.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 21, 2005, 03:02:22 pm
Does anyone have Nicola's email address to remind him of this?

mame.net WHOIS info

Domain Name: MAME.NET
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 03:03:18 pm
Foley, David
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 03:05:02 pm
So has anyone sent in the $75 bucks to trademark ultracade?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 03:09:07 pm
Strange. His email responses were coming fairly fast. This is the last one I sent and all of a sudden he has stoppped responding.....wonder why?.

Quote
Thanks again for responding.

I am not trying to be deliberately pedantic but there has already been one member of our community who has been approached by you (or your company) whom you demanded a royalty from for his distribution of MAME branded artwork. There are no shortage of hobbiests who charge for their skills and services in providing artwork and hardware to other hobbiests. This would seem to run contrary to your wish to simply put vendors who 'advertise machines with thousands of roms' out of business.

You have to understand that there are thousands of us dedicated to this hobby and regardless of your stated ambition the fact remains that once in control of the MAME name and logo you could then decide to claim royalties or shut down anyone using the software and or logo for any reason. Indeed judging by the actions demonstrated so far this would seem to be your intention.

I would be far more inclined to actively seek dialogue with the various people involved with the continued development and distribution of MAME and work in partnership with them and if necessary actively assist them in obtaining the relevant trademark.

Trying to trademark someone elses work particularly when this is something they have provided freely simply to promote your own business is not going to be a winning strategy even if your intentions are honest.

Regards,

CJ

A little disturbing that there still appears to have been no official response from any of the MAME team or vendors (mamemarquees, ultimarc etc) with an interest in maintaining the status quo. Hopefully things will start moving soon as regardless of how much we might speculate it requires the people he is attacking directly to help support any kind of credible defence.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mdekkers on February 21, 2005, 03:11:14 pm
Quote
There is a correct way to bring such things to the attention of the Trademark Office, and this is not it.

The constructive next step is to monitor the status of the application, and when it gets "published for opposition" then file an opposition [uspto.gov].
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/tmep/1500.htm#_Toc536249467

One convenient way to monitor the status of a pending US trademark application is by means of free software called Feathers [patents.com].
http://www.patents.com/feathers/

Thats from slashdot. Nicola needs to get his <auto-censored> together. BTW, to recap:

DarkKobold, the /. poster was actually a bit misleading with that post (he is a laywer, after all) in that the process he outlines is what you would do when you discover that somebody is stealing *your* trademark - This situation is different, in that we are general members of the public, and as such can act as material witnesses to the fact that this guy is breaking the law. What you do when you email the examiner or the trademark office is making them aware of the facts of the case *before* the trademark is awarded, instead of trying to undo the damage *after* the trademark is awarded. Even if the USPTO were, in a fit of insanity, to award the marque to this guy, the fact that these mails have been sent will make the subsequent case easier, since you can point out that it should never have been awarded in the first place - this is way easier then arguing that the marque does not belong to the guy. Former case is simply a procedural matter, whilst the latter case is much more involved, requires testimonies, witnesses, etc.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Popcorrin on February 21, 2005, 03:14:31 pm
I think Mr. Foley realizes he won't be able to trademark the mame logo.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 21, 2005, 03:16:11 pm
Great Post...

mame.net message thread (http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168561&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=7#Post168561)

Finally, I'm curious (simply that, no more) about the legal ramifications of this application. A patent applicant must file a "Declaration" that avers to the USPTO that he is the true inventor of the invention. Similar averments are required for copyright regiatrations. I don't know whether a trademark applicant must make the same averment regarding the use of a trademark - specifically, that the application is not claiming business goodwill generated by a completely different company - but if so, your application might run afoul of this. I would also be curious to investigate whether the Sherman antitrust act has any bearing on trademarking MAME in order to exclude lawful competitors from the cabinet market.

(Again, these are not legal opinions - merely areas of interest, and a very quick response based on my understanding of the law.)

- David Stein

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 03:18:11 pm
A little disturbing that there still appears to have been no official response from any of the MAME team or vendors (mamemarquees, ultimarc etc) with an interest in maintaining the status quo.

you aren;t looking hard enough.  Go read the mame.net forums.  Also we have a couple of companies that have responded to this thread. 

Trust me, Nicola should know by now what's going on :)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: rchadd on February 21, 2005, 03:23:46 pm
Looks like the filing fee is $75 for a small entity, or $300 regular.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 03:26:06 pm
Guess he went after DreamArcades as well.

Link (http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=25261&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1&new=1108953856)

pretty soon, he might even go after people who makes SPINNERS, JOYSTICKS HANDLES, CABINET MAKERS etc.... Ahhh! put back you pacifier well you BABY Foley
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 21, 2005, 03:42:07 pm
I just want to clarify for everyone about trademarks (and keep in mind IANAL, and maybe you should double-check the facts here):

 - You do not have to register a trademark to claim it as your trademark. If you use a particular "mark" for your business, you must "announce it to the world" that it is your mark, by adding "TM". Failure to do so puts you at a disadvantage in defending your mark.

 - If you register your mark, that's when you use the (R) symbol. Registration offers extra protection. And of course, you gotta use the R symbol. Failure to do so... (???)

 - As I see it, the MAME "organization" has dropped the ball in that they never used the "TM" to indicate their mark. It could be argued it's not a trade mark.

Ultracade technically IS a "multiple arcade machine emulator". If Foley hadn't been so stupid as to nab the existing logo, and had one designed for him instead, he could quite possibly get away with getting this tradmark. (I noticed in his official letter he always used "M.A.M.E." with the periods).

So will his current application get rejected? Very likely. Would a second application with his own logo get rejected? 50/50. Like I said, the MAME devs dropped the ball in not adding 'TM' to the use of the acronym.

***I almost forgot too... I have heard about some rules where it is "first to register" rather than "first to create". I do not remember if this is in relation to patents or trademarks. Could someone find out?***

~Ray B.




Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 03:47:08 pm
David Foley replied on mame.net.  An attorney replied to him.

Look at user sfsdfd.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 04:05:41 pm
Been thinking some more on this.  Companies selling MAME cabinets do not compete with Ultracade machines.  At All!  Ultracade is sold for commercial use.  MAME cabs are sold for home use.

His new line, Arcade Legends, is a new competitor to the already established home MAME cab market.  Dream Arcades should be able to collect damages.  Foley misrepresented his status as registered trademark owner.  This caused ebay to shut down an auction(s?) of an established direct competitor.  That can't be legal.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: jdjuggler on February 21, 2005, 04:09:14 pm
This guy may know more about what Foley is using in his product.
Anyone know this guy?

ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6155926360&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

I have emailed USPTO - And Ebay, stating that they may be abetting illegal trademark claims made by David Foley!

I don't want to be shot down if I ever decide to sell my Mame machine on Ebay.  This is insane!  He is after all of us, don't think for a minute that he will ever "work with the Mame community".
He out for blood and money!

Everyone, Please get involved.  Emails, certified letters to USPTO, phone calls, feedback to Ebay support.
Also, we still need some legal help with all of this.  Anyone???

JD

edited by saint to fix wrap
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 04:09:52 pm
Been thinking some more on this.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 04:13:47 pm
I was also thinking about this.  I do understand Foley's point of view.  it can be reasoned that mame cabinets have been taking some of his sales.  However, as pointed out, they are for different markets.  And Foley has gone aobut it in the wrong way.  Registering the trademark (IE trying to steal something that isn't his) is not good business practices.  What he should have done is for the cabinets that are illegal to prove they are.  Though most on ebay do not come with roms so therefore most are legal.  They claim they can play 4000+ games.  This is true, legally too.  Just download 4000+ shareware games....
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 04:18:53 pm
I'm not sure if you guys saw this second letter posted on the Ultracade site
..looks like he's retracting

http://www.ultracade.com/openoffer.pdf
Quote
February 21, 2005
An open offer to the M.A.M.E. community.
Our recent actions to protect our products have met with a lot of controversy. Many
people have been quick to judge and make accusations about what we are attempting to
do, and what we have already done. It is my understanding that the spirit of the
M.A.M.E. community is
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 21, 2005, 04:25:48 pm
Still sounds like he's trying to get what he wants using duress as his technique.

Reminds me of a used car sales pitch.

I'm not sure if you guys saw this second letter posted on the Ultracade site
..looks like he's retracting

http://www.ultracade.com/openoffer.pdf
Quote
February 21, 2005
An open offer to the M.A.M.E. community.
Our recent actions to protect our products have met with a lot of controversy. Many
people have been quick to judge and make accusations about what we are attempting to
do, and what we have already done. It is my understanding that the spirit of the
M.A.M.E. community is
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 04:26:42 pm
Ambiguous language on ebay ads aside.

Mr Foley has already shown that he's sees ownership of the MAME trademark as far more than a sword and shield to fight the dubious legality of some of their competitors.

They have already tried to use their implied ownership of the trademark to obtain royalty payments from people involved with the distribution of MAME branded artwork to the home build community.

Reading through the masses of outraged posts in other forums as well as this one it would appear that they fully intend to make full commercial use of the trademark in terms of both software and branding and have threatened everyone they could find an email address for who are using the MAME logo in whatever capacity.

If Mr Foley wasn't trying to steal the trademark (and thereby years of other peoples graft and dedication) and wasn't trying to squeeze royalties from all the hardworking people involved in making the community so open and successful then I'm sure he would enjoy fairly widespread support and a measure of commercial success for his efforts to pervert the dubious trade in illegal roms.

As it stands though he may have wreaked irreperable damage to his business by repeatedly biting the hand that feeds him.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 04:30:01 pm
As it stands though he may have wreaked irreperable damage to his business by repeatedly biting the hand that feeds him.
But we don't feed him.  Almost by definition, anyone frequenting Build Your Own Arcade Controls or using MAME isn't in the market for an Ultracade.  He claims not to use MAME in Ultracade itself.  So anyone making MAME marquees, arcade controls, cabinet plans, frontends, or anbything in support of a build-your-own solution is in competition with him.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 21, 2005, 04:31:00 pm
Regardless of his actions or intentions, nobody appointed him the official MAME POLICE. He had the nerve to desrcibe MAME as illegal anyways. So screw him.

That said, someone needs to decompile Ultracade and find out what's ticking underneath... (just in case there's some mame source in there...)



Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: gprime on February 21, 2005, 04:32:44 pm
He shuts down a company that sells MAME machines with *legal* roms from STARroms?

And then he's greedy enough to ask for *royalties* from places printing the MAME logo?

On top of that he tries to register the MAME trademark which clearly isn't his.

..

Does this guy work for SCO?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 21, 2005, 04:37:35 pm
Surely the main demographic for people that would concievably consider his product as a viable solution for arcade gaming at home would be people who have an interest in the retro/emu community as a whole.

Considering how rapidly the backlash is flying around the retro community (not just MAME sites). He must be alienating many potential customers for his products targeted at the home user and retro enthusiast.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 04:38:12 pm
Man thats a lot to read.

This guys a tool. Him stealing the mame logo because its "copyright infringement" is like stealing holloween candy from babys so they don't get cavities. (OK maybe not quite like that.)

I don't buy arcade cabnets from guys who steal candy from babys!

I would love to see what he's packing in these cabnets as well, but theres no way in hell I'm buying one to find out.

<edit> and boo on ebay for not even checking to see if he has a legal right to have these auctions pulled anyways.<edit>
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 04:41:44 pm
he even says that he has no intention of using the MAME name or logo
Instead of protecting the MAME community it sure looks like he'd rather just kill the MAME community and force everyone to buy an Ultracade machine
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 21, 2005, 04:46:54 pm
He shuts down a company that sells MAME machines with *legal* roms from STARroms?

And then he's greedy enough to ask for *royalties* from places printing the MAME logo?

On top of that he tries to register the MAME trademark which clearly isn't his.

..

Does this guy work for SCO?

You forgot "and claims he's doing it all for the good of the community."

 ::)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 05:04:30 pm
Sir P,

I meant that MAME cabs do not compete with the commercially licenced Ultracade cabs.  Ultracade's Arcade Legends Line seems to be designed and marketed for home use.  These would be a new competitor to the established MAME cab sellers like Dream Arcades.

Foley (based on posts in this thread) told eBay that he is the registered owner of the trademark.  This is a lie.  This lie caused eBay to remove an auction posted by one of Foley's competitors, thereby affecting said competitors ability to compete.

Does that make more sense?  I think I have a valid point here and I want to make sure everyone understands what I am trying to say.

Paul
Quote
Posted by: SirPoonga      Posted on: Today at 01:09:52 PM
Insert Quote
Quote from: pcolson on Today at 01:05:41 PM
Been thinking some more on this.  Companies selling MAME cabinets do not compete with Ultracade.  At All!  Ultracade is sold for commercial use.  MAME cabs are sold for home use.

His new line, Arcade Legends, is a new competitor to the already established home MAME cab market.  Dream Arcades should be able to collect damages.  Foley misrepresented his status as registered trademark owner.   That can't be legal.

Paul

You may want to reword what you said.

Quote
Companies selling MAME cabinets do not compete with Ultracade.  Ultracade is sold for commercial use.  MAME cabs are sold for home use.
....This caused ebay to shut down an auction(s?) of an established direct competitor.

contradictions.  It still doesn't mean it isn't wrong.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 05:08:13 pm
Pcolson, what you say is true.  First he is lying that he has a trademark and second he is removing legal competition.

I find his letters apallying.  He is trying to get his foot in the door.  If he does I think most of us know where it will go.  He won't stop with a trademark.  The man is obviously not all there.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 21, 2005, 05:11:38 pm
I know what you were saying, I was just pointing out what you typed may not have meant what you wanted to say.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 05:26:41 pm
This guy is probobly next in line for harrassment.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20516&item=4358404257&rd=1
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 05:31:04 pm
This guy is probobly next in line for harrassment.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20516&item=4358404257&rd=1

The poor guy or gal won't know what hit 'em...lol.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 05:37:05 pm
And now that I think about it how can they get stuff pulled off ebay anyways? does that mean if I try selling my Gamecube Nintendo can get the auction pulled off?

The more I think about it the less I like this guy.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 05:49:38 pm
This guy is probobly next in line for harrassment.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20516&item=4358404257&rd=1

hehe...he use the word MAME....WTF Foley ?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 21, 2005, 05:54:44 pm
How many people work at Ultracade??? I mean is it a big company or it just Dave and a couple of buddy's? 

It is likely just him and a few buddies. The address for the company is local for me, I might drive by it tomorrow on my way home from work, just to get an idea of size.

-Goz
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: MonitorGuru on February 21, 2005, 05:58:11 pm
And now that I think about it how can they get stuff pulled off ebay anyways? does that mean if I try selling my Gamecube Nintendo can get the auction pulled off?
Actually Dell computers no longer allows their products to be sold on eBay as NEW with Warranty. Go to Fatwallet.com and read the Online Auction forum and see how many eBay seller accounts have been permanently suspended by Dell for simply reselling a new Dell computer.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 06:07:23 pm
Everyone should give Foley a call and "boo" him
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 21, 2005, 06:09:14 pm
Do you think he will go as far as send cease and decist orders to people who have MAME in their nicks?

crap I just typed MAME now I owe him .02

darn did it again, I better get to sending Mr. Folly .04 cents for the use of the word.

-Goz
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 21, 2005, 06:10:42 pm
On the size of the Ultracade building at the San Jose address, I think I read it is 26,000sf.

Paul
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gamecab on February 21, 2005, 06:17:35 pm
 >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 06:26:53 pm
I guess hindsight  is 20/20, Cuz I would have helped out with this project if I knew crap like this would happen.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,27901.0.html

Its nice how the mame community is willing to defend him, and he's able to turn around and take a dump on us in return.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: PaulG on February 21, 2005, 06:29:47 pm
"Suffice to say, everyone who works on MAME is well aware of the attempted theft of our name and logo. Appropriate, measured steps are being taken to solve this issue. This is not something that is going to be helped by a lot of public hand-wringing by those involved with MAME, so don't expect a lot of public comments on the matter. Just trust that it's being taken care of, and if help is needed, it will be asked."

From the man himself, Aaron Giles.

http://aarongiles.com/
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 21, 2005, 06:36:25 pm
"Suffice to say, everyone who works on MAME is well aware of the attempted theft of our name and logo. Appropriate, measured steps are being taken to solve this issue. This is not something that is going to be helped by a lot of public hand-wringing by those involved with MAME, so don't expect a lot of public comments on the matter. Just trust that it's being taken care of, and if help is needed, it will be asked."

From the man himself, Aaron Giles.

http://aarongiles.com/

Why do I imagine a group of MAMEdev Ninjas slipping quietly through the night... ;D
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: bioart on February 21, 2005, 06:46:02 pm
All the backpedaling is him just trying to save face.  This is not the way to do business.  He's trying to expand his market into the home user, but he can't compete there... Ultracade is the right way to do it for the commercial market.  But the prices just don't make sense for the hobbyst (or joe blow buying a cab on Ebay)

Argg... people like this make me mad!  >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: sirwoogie on February 21, 2005, 06:50:02 pm
I'll stay on the sideline for my personal opinions on the matter. However, these actions tend to make me think of this audio loop played on the local morning radio.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 21, 2005, 06:51:18 pm
Does this mean that Hanaho, who has licensed ROMs in their cabs, will be sued for their infringing "TrueMAME" emulator?  ;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 06:53:36 pm
"Suffice to say, everyone who works on MAME is well aware of the attempted theft of our name and logo. Appropriate, measured steps are being taken to solve this issue. This is not something that is going to be helped by a lot of public hand-wringing by those involved with MAME, so don't expect a lot of public comments on the matter. Just trust that it's being taken care of, and if help is needed, it will be asked."

From the man himself, Aaron Giles.

http://aarongiles.com/

That's all I need to know.

Now about those ninjas...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 21, 2005, 07:01:23 pm
BTW, this is just one more in the long list of obstacles I've encountered on my long road to market legal cabinets.  I've sorted out all the other issues holding me back, and now this?  :(

Contrary to this guy's assertions, it is possible to license packages of StarRoms in the end-user's name at the time of sale.  I have verified this personally with the StarRoms sales team.

So my cabs will feature legally obtained, properly licensed games ONLY, and the user is required to obtain and install MAME themselves to comply with the wishes of the MAMEdevs.  Yet I may be held back by this stupid trademark from even mentioning Mame on my site. In the words of Q*bert, @&^*%!!!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 07:09:14 pm
I think since he has a problem with 4000 games sellers would put together discs of freeware games and advertise the systems play 10,000 games.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gamecab on February 21, 2005, 07:16:01 pm
 >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Tommy Boy on February 21, 2005, 07:16:26 pm
BTW, this is just one more in the long list of obstacles I've encountered on my long road to market legal cabinets.  I've sorted out all the other issues holding me back, and now this?  :(

Contrary to this guy's assertions, it is possible to license packages of StarRoms in the end-user's name at the time of sale.  I have verified this personally with the StarRoms sales team.

So my cabs will feature legally obtained, properly licensed games ONLY, and the user is required to obtain and install MAME themselves to comply with the wishes of the MAMEdevs.  Yet I may be held back by this stupid trademark from even mentioning Mame on my site. In the words of Q*bert, @&^*%!!!
I know that there are lots of opinions on this topic and few lawyers with real answers (and IANAL)...but let's assume for a minute that he does get a TM for MAME (a big "IF" in my opinion).  How does that really impact products such as yours 1up?  Your cabs won't say "MAME" anywhere on them, right?  If your product doesn't use the name or logo, then you have no need to license anything from Foley.  If you mention "MAME" on your website as part of your literature, then as long as you provide the proper attributions (e.g. TM - property of so-and-so) you should be alright.  In this very peculiar case, he doesn't own the rights to MAME, only the "brand".  But competitors use the brand names of their competition all the time in adds and literature -- they just provide proper attribution.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 07:18:00 pm
OK

I'm almost finished with my spewing on trademarks.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 07:19:35 pm
registered trademarks get the
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: cholin on February 21, 2005, 07:24:33 pm
Well, who here uses their cabinet for commercial use or plans to sell it.  Personally, I dont.  Its not like if I use MAME hes going to come to my house and rip my marquee off!  I still think this is wrong though, just not as badly as yous.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 07:37:05 pm
Well, who here uses their cabinet for commercial use or plans to sell it.  Personally, I dont.  Its not like if I use MAME hes going to come to my house and rip my marquee off!  I still think this is wrong though, just not as badly as yous.
BTW, this is just one more in the long list of obstacles I've encountered on my long road to market legal cabinets. I've sorted out all the other issues holding me back, and now this? :(

Contrary to this guy's assertions, it is possible to license packages of StarRoms in the end-user's name at the time of sale. I have verified this personally with the StarRoms sales team.

So my cabs will feature legally obtained, properly licensed games ONLY, and the user is required to obtain and install MAME themselves to comply with the wishes of the MAMEdevs. Yet I may be held back by this stupid trademark from even mentioning Mame on my site. In the words of Q*bert, @&^*%!!!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Pete Harcoff on February 21, 2005, 07:38:13 pm
After reading his letters and some of the other posts, I find this whole thing bizarre.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 07:49:18 pm
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578+&action=Request+Status

He is laying claim to MAME itself.  Anything that has to do with MAME (artwork) would come with the package.

"Computer software that enables the emulation of multiple arcade games and their associated hardware, allowing them to run on a general purpose computer operating system"
-From link above-

So if he were granted the TM, he could shut down anything & everything that mentioned MAME and had anything to do with computer software
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Tommy Boy on February 21, 2005, 07:51:06 pm
After reading his letters and some of the other posts, I find this whole thing bizarre.  There are two things I don't understand.

Supposing he gets the trademark, couldn't makers of other cabs get around this by:

A) Not mentioning the MAME software at all and instead simply state that it can play thousands of arcade games?

Or,

B) Simply mention that it can run the MAME software, but include a standard disclaimer (MAME is trademarked by yada-yada-yada)?

It seems to me that the only people this would affect are people who use the MAME logo in any great capacity.  It's hardly going to stamp out piracy.
I agree with you Pete.  I just went out to Sun's website and found the following quote within 30 seconds:

"...You will be in good hands with Sun. We've already helped thousands of businesses move from legacy IT platforms (like HP-UX, Tru-64 and more) to a solid foundation based on products, technologies and services that offer better resource utilization, higher levels of dependability and lower total cost of ownership."

Does anybody think that HP gave Sun approval to use their registered trademarks as part of a Sun ad -- especially when it's an invitation to customers to migrate away from HP?  As long as Sun isn't trying to sell a box that has "HP" on it or an operating system named "HP-UX Killer", etc.  I don't think there's a foul here.  In the end, owning a trademark doesn't buy you much if you don't have rights to the technology underneath...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 21, 2005, 07:53:27 pm
He is laying claim to MAME itself.  Anything that has to do with MAME (artwork) would come with the package.
Couldn't he technically steal mame and sell it with his products.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 21, 2005, 07:54:53 pm
It is likely just him and a few buddies. The address for the company is local for me, I might drive by it tomorrow on my way home from work, just to get an idea of size.

-Goz

Don't forget to wear your MAME T-shirt....Oh!! wait, don't let him see you with that shirt on  :P
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Tommy Boy on February 21, 2005, 07:58:24 pm
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578+&action=Request+Status

He is laying claim to MAME itself.  Anything that has to do with MAME (artwork) would come with the package.
  MAME is a software application.  He is filing for a trademark.  You cannot "lay claim" to a software package with a trademark.  If he were trying to claim MAME itself, he would have to do that through a patent, at which point he would be susceptible to a claim of prior art.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 08:02:09 pm
He is laying claim to MAME itself. Anything that has to do with MAME (artwork) would come with the package.
Couldn't he technically steal mame and sell it with his products.

I'd imagine that's the intention.  Everything that was "MAME" would become his.  There's a few issues with how he's doing it (that I've noticed), but I'm leaving that up to the MAME team to point out as needed.

Right now I STRONGLY encourage all the printers cab builders etc. carry on as usual.  I created a business thread on this subject so they can get in touch with each other (please use it guys).  Mostly, they should start counting the damages and file lawsuits against him (as an individual).  Make sure you guys print and save (a few times), all the letters/emails etc he has sent out.  That will be what gets you the money come your court date.

edit/
I just wanted to clarfiy that he wouldn't get MAME as it sits, he would be entitled to call his emulator MAME and no one else could.  Of course It probably is MAME in his cabs anyhow... >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 08:04:45 pm
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578+&action=Request+Status

He is laying claim to MAME itself.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Patent Doc on February 21, 2005, 08:10:02 pm
OK guys here it goes
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Pete Harcoff on February 21, 2005, 08:24:40 pm
Another hypothetical:

Supposing he does get the MAME trademark, what would be the alternative?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 08:25:54 pm
Worse still, to establish a common law mark, you must use it in commerce
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 21, 2005, 08:27:37 pm
Supposing he does get the MAME trademark, what would be the alternative?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: dek on February 21, 2005, 08:49:34 pm
dgillmor@sjmercury.com
mantonucci@sjmercury.com

2 guys people should email. They work for the Mercury News which is right around the corner from this scumbags place. Nothing like a public outing in your hometown.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 08:54:40 pm
We'll want to keep this on topic though.  This is about taking the MAME name, not emulation itself (yet).  That battle was already fought once with Bleem!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 21, 2005, 09:13:16 pm
OK

I'm almost finished with my spewing on trademarks.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 21, 2005, 09:35:13 pm
Well, I'm not taking any chances...

(http://retroblast.com/images/secondary%20template_r1_c1.jpg)

Kevin Steele(tm)[/sup]
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Daniel270 on February 21, 2005, 09:41:54 pm
I just hope this doesn't change future token releases... not to mention future revisions of Saint's book!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 21, 2005, 09:48:50 pm
Well, I'm not taking any chances...

(http://retroblast.com/images/secondary%20template_r1_c1.jpg)

Kevin Steele(tm)[/sup]

Me Neither -

ahem...


Midway Multi-Williams Omega Mame (TM)
Moon Patrol MultiGame (TM)
Sean's Controller (TM) (Owned and enforceable by Sean)
Sydney, my daughter...(TM)(C)(PAT PEND) [Also see; "Two Guys in A Shiny Black Car" Protection Agency]





Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 21, 2005, 10:13:50 pm
My new trademark...

"Mr. Ultracade (TM)"

Let's see how he likes that!

Ahem...

My heart is at ease knowing that the MAMEteam knows about this and is going to challenge it. There is no way Mr. Ultracade (TM) can beat that.  Besides, let's be honest, this thing is viral. If he managed to get the name MAME for his very own, the same program would be back with a new name in about 12 seconds. Too may people have too much data for Mr. Ultracade (TM) to be able to do a damn thing about it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 21, 2005, 10:14:09 pm
Yup, that's exactly what I've been doing since I started my corporate site.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 21, 2005, 10:15:52 pm
My new trademark...

"Mr. Ultracade (TM)"

Let's see how he likes that!

Ahem...

My heart is at ease knowing that the MAMEteam knows about this and is going to challenge it. There is no way Mr. Ultracade (TM) can beat that.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mahuti on February 21, 2005, 10:19:58 pm
I always thought MAME was a lame name anyway. Good time to change it.

;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 21, 2005, 10:21:13 pm
I am sick of that damn logo...  ;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 10:47:07 pm
Here's a few interesting posts with contact information:

mame.net thread 1 (http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168588&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=5#Post168588)

mame.net thread 2 (http://www.mame.net/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=mamegeneral&Number=168593&page=0&view=expanded&mode=threaded&sb=5#Post168593)

http://hotlinks.blogspot.com/2005/02/games-arcade-kit-seller-applies-for.html
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 21, 2005, 10:56:32 pm
So now what is the best way to get the word out on Ultracade (besides what he has done to himself
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 21, 2005, 10:59:12 pm
So now what is the best way to get the word out on Ultracade (besides what he has done to himself  ;))?  Can we start a "ribbon" campaign with a shredded logo?  Start calling it Ultracon?  How do those farse sites get away with making fun of things?  We really should keep the newcomers away from his product.

Has anyone applied for ultracade & had his ebay auctions pulled?  Just wondering... :angel:  I'd like to see how his distributors are taking all of this.

If somthing like this gets done, make sure it has more META tags than ULTRACADE has that way it is #1 in the search engines  ;D

-Goz
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Tommy Boy on February 21, 2005, 11:03:48 pm
How about a new name that's more audacious.  The Ultimate Arcade Emulator: Ulti-cadeTM
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 11:05:45 pm
I missed this before:
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578
That's the application on the US Gov. web site
It says:
Quote
Current Status: Newly filed application, not yet assigned to an examining attorney.

Date of Status: 2005-01-28

Filing Date: 2005-01-11

Transformed into a National Application: No

..and there's a ton of info over at slashdot:
http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/21/0415209&tid=203&tid=17&tid=10
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: JODY on February 21, 2005, 11:09:21 pm
His other company is Hyperware.  Seems he's into hype.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: romperwomb on February 21, 2005, 11:10:45 pm
Found this in the /. posts taken from Foley's personal site, which appears to be down:  http://www.davidrfoley.com/.  Thought his own words should come back and haunt him.

A poem by David R Foley

The Drowning Man

You can never teach
The drowning man to swim.
As long as he is in the water,
All he can do is flail,
And try and not sink.
Eventually he will tire.

Throw him a line.
Tell him a story.
Tell him it will be okay.
Convince yourself
That it is okay to lie.

You know that he really isn't okay.
You know that he can't swim.
And, you know,
If he stays in the water,
Eventually he will die.

D. Foley, 1997
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DarkKobold on February 21, 2005, 11:13:57 pm
Man, this just keeps getting me angrier and angrier. He has a 2 page verbatim as to why he is doing this.... It reads well actually.

There is one problem. IT IS NOT HIS!!!! wow. Seriously. UGHHHHH.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DarkKobold on February 21, 2005, 11:16:25 pm
This reminds me. There are 20 some ultracade auctions on ebay right now. Since VERO always takes the side of the complainer, anyone care to go through and claim that every auction infringes on their intellectual property? Fightin' fire with fire!!!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: krick on February 21, 2005, 11:30:04 pm
Well, I'm not taking any chances...

(http://retroblast.com/images/secondary%20template_r1_c1.jpg)

Kevin Steele(tm)[/sup]

I know you're joking but Billy Joel registered his name as a trademark in the '80s.

Go HERE (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=t0q2dk.1.1) and try searching for "billy joel".




Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Witchboard on February 21, 2005, 11:31:05 pm
I don't think anyone here will be stooping to his level.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 21, 2005, 11:34:11 pm
This reminds me. There are 20 some ultracade auctions on ebay right now.
HEY!! You are RIGHT!!! (http://search-desc.ebay.com/ultracade_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQsojsZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQftsZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsadisZ200QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch)
That would be so sad if people started doing "Buy It Now" on all of the Ultracades with no intent to actually buy
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: itismejs on February 22, 2005, 12:00:34 am
This reminds me. There are 20 some ultracade auctions on ebay right now.
HEY!! You are RIGHT!!! (http://search-desc.ebay.com/ultracade_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQsojsZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQftsZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsadisZ200QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch)
That would be so sad if people started doing "Buy It Now" on all of the Ultracades with no intent to actually buy  ;D
How would this effect dave...these machines are already sold to distributers...?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 22, 2005, 12:09:39 am
<voice of reason>

I would refrain from any malicious acts on him personally, his business, or other interests.  The MameDevs and the person (goes by the moniker "Chemical" I am told) who created the logo have the ball now.  This issue will be settled with lawyers, not tomatoes.

While DF has, IMHO made an tactical error in his stated attempt to combat unfair trade practices in regards to multigame systems, I will give him the benefit of the doubt until this plays out. 

I just don't like the idea of sabatoging a guy's interests without all the facts.  I personally think email and letters to him stating your opinion as well as the other legal notices discussed here are reasonable.  Hate-mail and other harassment are not IMHO. 

</voice of reason>
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 12:11:34 am
I have to congradulate you all.  We kept this post pretty civil.  Didn;t have to lock it, yet.

I think right now everything has been said and we just need to wait to see what the next action is.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: danny_galaga on February 22, 2005, 12:54:49 am
while i think they are tossers for trying to trademark the MAME logo, i have said before in other threads that if enough people abuse the priviledge of MAME by selling ROMS left, right and centre then someone is going to get shirty and crack down on it. never thought it would be anyone other than and original manufacturer though!! but there you go.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: mahuti on February 22, 2005, 01:09:50 am
Buncha shirty tossers. ;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Bones on February 22, 2005, 01:35:23 am
This is sooooo funny.

Anybody that plans on buying a arcade-play-it-all machine is going to do some research, if for the only reason is to check they are getting a fair deal. I doubt the buying population is completely clueless.

You can guarantee that anyone new who does a search is going to come across this, or similar postings on other newsgroups all showing disgust at Mr Ultracade
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 22, 2005, 01:38:13 am
Maybe he recieved some marketing advice from Mr. C's former boss.

 ;D

-Goz
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: menace on February 22, 2005, 07:28:15 am
Quote
You can guarantee that anyone new who does a search is going to come across this, or similar postings on other newsgroups all showing disgust at Mr Ultracade
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: PaulG on February 22, 2005, 07:42:26 am
In the completely bizarre scenario where they actually lost use of the name:  My choice for replacement:  GAME (TM)

General Arcade Machine Emulator (TM)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 22, 2005, 07:49:28 am
In the completely bizarre scenario where they actually lost use of the name:
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 22, 2005, 07:54:38 am
Well, I'm not taking any chances...

(http://retroblast.com/images/secondary%20template_r1_c1.jpg)

Kevin Steele(tm)[/sup]

I know you're joking but Billy Joel registered his name as a trademark in the '80s.

Go HERE (http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/gate.exe?f=searchss&state=t0q2dk.1.1) and try searching for "billy joel".

I'm only partially joking - I have placed Trademark symbols on the phrase "RetroBlast!" on my site, as well as claimed the phrase as my trademark on my "About" page.

This situation pointed out that I had a valuable asset (my site's name) just sitting out there, unprotected.

As to my own name, well, I'm already too late to get http://www.kevinsteele.com, so what's the point?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 22, 2005, 08:25:06 am
I 100% agree.

I have to congradulate you all.  We kept this post pretty civil.  Didn;t have to lock it, yet.

I think right now everything has been said and we just need to wait to see what the next action is.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Minwah on February 22, 2005, 08:30:07 am
I just don't like the idea of sabatoging a guy's interests without all the facts.  I personally think email and letters to him stating your opinion as well as the other legal notices discussed here are reasonable.  Hate-mail and other harassment are not IMHO. 

Personally I think he deserves anything he gets (tho I think hacking his website could be more fun than hate mail ;D ).  What he has done is not reasonable IMHO.

I'm still waiting for him to email me regarding my FE's logo - he'd better be quick I'm leaving the country very soon  8)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 09:18:49 am
This reminds me. There are 20 some ultracade auctions on ebay right now.
HEY!! You are RIGHT!!! (http://search-desc.ebay.com/ultracade_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQsojsZ1QQfromZR10QQcatrefZC6QQftsZ2QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsadisZ200QQfsopZ1QQfsooZ1QQcoactionZcompareQQcopagenumZ1QQcoentrypageZsearch)
That would be so sad if people started doing "Buy It Now" on all of the Ultracades with no intent to actually buy  ;D
How would this effect dave...these machines are already sold to distributers...?

It would prevent the Ultracades from actually being sold on ebay
the same thing that  David R. Foley is trying to do to the MAME machines

..but I was only joking. anyway  ;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 22, 2005, 09:42:37 am
That could jeopardize your ebay account.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 22, 2005, 10:30:21 am
Quote
You can guarantee that anyone new who does a search is going to come across this, or similar postings on other newsgroups all showing disgust at Mr Ultracade
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 22, 2005, 10:34:42 am
Google isn't that easy to fool. The page content itself has to be relevant, and then the number of links to this page from other sites also matters.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Santoro on February 22, 2005, 10:40:43 am
So let's create a site that tells the truth about this trademeark theft, then everyone on the board with a web page could link to it.  We should be able to get a few hundered pages linking to it without much problem. 

Or, we could all just link to this thread!

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 22, 2005, 10:46:30 am
One thing I don't get.  Ultracade has some liscencing and that is a huge plus.  The cabinets are ok, but really nothing special.  Controls are very limited from what I have seen.

Why doesn't DF try to contract the better cabinet builders to produce Ultracades with decent controls?  Would seem to be the best of both worlds if he was really interested in producing a superior product.

*shrug*

 

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 11:17:18 am
Feel free to use this in any way you please:

(http://img217.exs.cx/img217/5991/ultra0gk.jpg) (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32339.0.html)
Code: [Select]
[url=http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32339.0.html] [img]http://img217.exs.cx/img217/5991/ultra0gk.jpg[/img][/url]
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 11:55:58 am
This too:

(http://img183.exs.cx/img183/6914/foley6iz.jpg) (david.foley@ultracade.com)
Code: [Select]
[email=david.foley@ultracade.com][img]http://img183.exs.cx/img183/6914/foley6iz.jpg[/img][/email]
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Sasquatch! on February 22, 2005, 12:20:18 pm
You know, DF was close to having a legitimate gripe, but he completely blew it IMO.

Theoretically, Ultracade is in a different market segment than companies like emdkay.net, mamemarquess, Dream Authentics, etc.: These companies serve hobbyists like ourselves, while Ultracade produces arcade machines for COMMERCIAL use (which, if you think about it, makes sense as to why their machines cost so much more...you can legally charge for play on them).  Even if you're in the market for a MAME machine for yourself (whether you want to build one, or whether you want to buy one off of eBay), you're still in a different market than the one that Ultracade targets.

The utterly frightening part of this is that Ultracade is trying to - at the very least - get money from these companies...companies that, again, service an entirely different market.  That's when they've gone WAY over the line.  What a jerkass.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 22, 2005, 12:46:59 pm
To quote the movie Ace Ventura Pet Detective

If he had held the ball laces out like he's supposed to, Ray would never have missed that kick. Dan Marino Dave Foley should *** ** ********* *** *** ** ****!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Pete Harcoff on February 22, 2005, 01:36:26 pm
If someone wanted to create a page that pointed out this issue and have it be the top listing in say google, it should be able to be done using META tags. For instance if you google Ultracade the #1 one page has these defined:

<meta name=keywords
content="ultracade,UltraCade,ultracade technology,ultracade technologies,video game,video games,coin-operated video games,coin-op video games, video arcade games,ArcadePC,MAME,MAME32,multi game,multi-game,Capcom,Hanaho,Nintendo,Atari,MAME games,MAME ROMS">

If I'm not mistaken this is probably good enough to hit the top 1 or 2 in google. Just add a blatant page title that gets attention.

-Goz

Nope.  META keywords mean squat to Google.  What you need is relevant content plus page rank (which depends on outside links).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ANTI FOLEY on February 22, 2005, 01:46:50 pm
<voice of reason>

I would refrain from any malicious acts on him personally, his business, or other interests.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 22, 2005, 02:22:26 pm
Humour is always good...

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: unix4hire on February 22, 2005, 02:33:35 pm
I admit I didn't read all 240+ prior posts here but I did read the "letter" Mr. Foley placed on his site.  He clearly states he will withdraw the application for trademark or have it written over to the MAME creators if they step forward.  So, how can we get them to step forward and end this ridiculousness?

http://www.ultracade.com/mame.htm
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chemixtry on February 22, 2005, 02:45:07 pm
"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you."
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 22, 2005, 02:46:30 pm
They are fully aware and dealing with the situation. Troll back a couple of pages and you will see a link to the official response.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 22, 2005, 02:48:47 pm
I admit I didn't read all 240+ prior posts here but I did read the "letter" Mr. Foley placed on his site.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: APFelon on February 22, 2005, 03:13:00 pm
I admit I didn't read all 240+ prior posts here but I did read the "letter" Mr. Foley placed on his site.  He clearly states he will withdraw the application for trademark or have it written over to the MAME creators if they step forward.  So, how can we get them to step forward and end this ridiculousness?

Well, considering that Mr. Foley has allegedly committed several crimes, including fraud against the trademark office and interstate racketeering, I'd say he has no leverage in this situation and he'll be lucky to survive this with his company intact. Besides, if you were on the MAME team, would YOU step forward to put yourself in this guys line of fire?

APf
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 03:27:22 pm
If someone wanted to create a page that pointed out this issue and have it be the top listing in say google, it should be able to be done using META tags. For instance if you google Ultracade the #1 one page has these defined:

<meta name=keywords
content="ultracade,UltraCade,ultracade technology,ultracade technologies,video game,video games,coin-operated video games,coin-op video games, video arcade games,ArcadePC,MAME,MAME32,multi game,multi-game,Capcom,Hanaho,Nintendo,Atari,MAME games,MAME ROMS">

If I'm not mistaken this is probably good enough to hit the top 1 or 2 in google. Just add a blatant page title that gets attention.

-Goz

Nope.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Dotmatrix1 on February 22, 2005, 03:30:42 pm
I've also been contacted by this hack requesting that I pay royalties to use a trademark that isn't his, nor has it even been approved yet.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 03:48:06 pm
According to this article on GameDaily
Foley has the coin-op industry believing that he has the patent on the use of PC-based architecture in coin-op systems
http://biz.gamedaily.com/articles.asp?article_id=7675#7675
Quote
UltraCade Licenses Design to Tsunami

UltraCade Technologies today announced the completion of a licensing deal with Tsunami Visual.
The deal concerns the use of design patent D428,884
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:02:15 pm
Does hanaho have a patent for their home arcade?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Stingray on February 22, 2005, 04:06:15 pm
So let's create a site that tells the truth about this trademeark theft, then everyone on the board with a web page could link to it.  We should be able to get a few hundered pages linking to it without much problem. 

Or, we could all just link to this thread!



If someone would care to write up an article about this (I'm not much of a write myself) I'll be happy to host it on my website and we can all link to it.

-S
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: AmericanDemon on February 22, 2005, 04:19:36 pm
I still think its funny that Ultracade products are being sold through Happs.  http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/ultracade_index.htm
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 22, 2005, 04:21:29 pm

If someone would care to write up an article about this (I'm not much of a write myself) I'll be happy to host it on my website and we can all link to it.

-S
LOL!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 22, 2005, 04:23:01 pm
if my memory serves me right, Ultracade went belly up before then came back again (maybe when he thought about stealing you know what).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 22, 2005, 04:23:13 pm
I still think its funny that Ultracade products are being sold through Happs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:24:30 pm
Anyhow, to the people that think the MAME devs should "step forward", I ask: Why?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Stingray on February 22, 2005, 04:28:59 pm

If someone would care to write up an article about this (I'm not much of a write myself) I'll be happy to host it on my website and we can all link to it.

-S
LOL!  You sure got that right Stingray. ;)  You type like I do.


(http://mpwwc.stingraysmadness.com/images/smiles/doh1.gif)
(http://mpwwc.stingraysmadness.com/images/smiles/homer.gif)

-S

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DreamArcades on February 22, 2005, 04:33:22 pm

Anyone click on the ultracade google ad that pops up once and awhile.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 22, 2005, 04:37:46 pm
I think Ultracade is still around. They just did that Dragon's Lair/DL2/Space Ace cab last year.  :-\

Hey, you notice the Arcade Classics cab looks like a warped Midway/Pac cab?

I think that's damn funny, since the games list contains no Midway/Namco products.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:39:34 pm

Anyone click on the ultracade google ad that pops up once and awhile.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 22, 2005, 04:39:56 pm
Hey, I wonder if Mr. Ultracade (TM) (and Digital Leisure) will go after Daphne next?

Probably not, since the name isn't as marketable as that of MAME.

So much hating Mr. Ultracade right now.  :P
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:40:51 pm
Hey, I wonder if Mr. Ultracade (TM) (and Digital Leisure) will go after Daphne next?

Probably not, since the name isn't as marketable as that of MAME.

No, ultracade doesn't do laserdisc, no need to.

My bad.  I didn't read other post.  Really, they did a laser disc thing. 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 22, 2005, 04:41:31 pm
They just did one...  ;)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:43:08 pm
well, there oyu go.  There's the reason his sales are not doing well.  He's obviously not advertising it correctly or I would have known :)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 22, 2005, 04:45:54 pm
They didn't use a laser player tho... they used a "custom PC based emulation program..." (COFFdaphneCOFF)

 :P
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 04:48:50 pm
(http://www.homegameroom.com/catalog/images/dragon2lg.gif)
http://www.homegameroom.com/catalog/images/dragon2lg.gif
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 04:50:05 pm
There is something wrong with a dragon's lair in a pacman cabinet.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 22, 2005, 04:54:42 pm
Notice that despite his assertion that he would 'be happy to assign the trademark or cancel our application' that he has taken no such action even though MAMEDevs must have been in touch by now.

Another piece of propaganda then!.

For the record if emdkay is thinking about litigation for damages and possibly charges against Foley I am happy to help contribute toward any costs if needed.

Also I wonder if he has actually successfully shaken anyone down for royalties?.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Shape D. on February 22, 2005, 06:07:54 pm
I'm sure based on the circumstances that Mr. Foley contacted these guys they would be able to find lawers who will take payment after the case is won.


I also think this brings up the point that we need a way to obtain legal roms. If only starroms had more vendors than Atari and Atari.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: dek on February 22, 2005, 06:51:16 pm
I'm willing to cough up a few bucks for the lawyer fund as well.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 22, 2005, 07:13:28 pm
I also think this brings up the point that we need a way to obtain legal roms. If only starroms had more vendors than Atari and Atari.

Nobody has proven that roms are legal/illegal.  It has never been to court.  They probably are in the US, but AFAIK it's just been assumed they are because some companies have sent out cease & desist orders.  Whether they actually own the legal rights to the game who knows, they may all be a bunch of Foleys.  Anyhow, show support for starroms by buying their product.  They offer them at a realistic price, give them the money to buy the rights to more.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 22, 2005, 09:08:28 pm
Here's a couple more he's tring for.

Multicade s/n    76629621
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76629621

Arcade Legends s/n 76611855
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76611855

I changed the links to the status pages, hopefully these wont expire.  Serial numbers added in case they do (Thanks for letting me know they expired emdkay).  I found them searching for "Lee Hagelshaw" in the boolean search.

Paul


Go look at what ultracade sells....
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 22, 2005, 10:25:38 pm
Here's a couple more he's tring for.

Multicade s/n    76629621
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76629621

Arcade Legends s/n 76611855
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76611855

I changed the links to the status pages, hopefully these wont expire.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 10:58:15 pm
it's not a one man operation

go here and search for ultracade
http://biz.gamedaily.com/search.asp

then read the articles

i posted about one of them on the last page
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 22, 2005, 11:06:00 pm
Because he wants to own it himself,
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 22, 2005, 11:11:11 pm
When are one of you flash users going to make a parody?  I'd love to see a dude wearing a T-shirt with his products on it saying "I own that!  That's Mine!  Gimme That!"  etc. etc.  Then crap falls on him.  You just don't get any funnier than poop. ;D
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Setabs on February 22, 2005, 11:32:52 pm

edit/
Anyone that wants to use the banner below can.  I'd love to see that thing propagated around the net.

Sorry I dont see anything except for the hosted by angelfire pic
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Paul Olson on February 23, 2005, 04:15:25 am
Look at the Arcade Legends logo on the trademark app.  It is not the same one he uses on his machines, not even close.

Multicade is not his.  They are the 9in1, 39in1, ect that he is complaining about in his letter.

Paul

Quote
Quote from: SirPoonga on Yesterday at 06:08:28 PM
Quote from: pcolson on February 21, 2005, 01:30:34 AM
Here's a couple more he's tring for.

Multicade s/n    76629621
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76629621

Arcade Legends s/n 76611855
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76611855

I changed the links to the status pages, hopefully these wont expire.  Serial numbers added in case they do (Thanks for letting me know they expired emdkay).  I found them searching for "Lee Hagelshaw" in the boolean search.

Paul


Go look at what ultracade sells....
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: ras2a on February 23, 2005, 04:39:10 am
sorry if mentioned, but has the ultracade site been pulled?

Edit: Still up, was looking in wrong place
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 23, 2005, 09:35:32 am
saw this pic at Retrogames and I wish or maybe it is

FOLEY  :P



Edit: that's just NASTY.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 23, 2005, 09:43:35 am
..where's a moderator when you need one? >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 23, 2005, 09:46:45 am
Eeeek my eyes!

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 09:49:37 am

edit/
Anyone that wants to use the banner below can.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: shawnzilla on February 23, 2005, 09:50:08 am
I don't think I'd ever leave my room if I had a set like that!  ;D
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 09:55:59 am
Look at the Arcade Legends logo on the trademark app.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: kcorcoran on February 23, 2005, 11:46:39 am
theNasty....

PM me!

keith.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DrewKaree on February 23, 2005, 12:25:41 pm
His comments look 3/4 reasonable. Looks like he just wants "apples for apples" comparison when advertising cabs for sale.


Until you read the following on his letters, and put 2 and 2 together and realize something.  First, his words:

Quote

We have no desire to use the M.A.M.E. name or logos; we simply wish to find ways to prevent illegal distribution of classic arcade games.


Second, if his intent is to find ways to prevent illegal distribution of CLASSIC ARCADE GAMES, why has he hit up emdkay for royalties payments?  Those are marquees and artwork, something he stated he had no desire to use (regarding MAME, anyway), yet is trying to shake emdkay for money.

The guy is interested in making money in whatever way possible by whatever means possible, and seems to have posted his letters in an effort to cover his ass by offering up half-truths that don't actually match up to his actions.

If this were an effort to prevent illegal distribution of arcade games, why hassle a guy who deals with artwork, and is in no way illegally distributing ANY arcade games?

I think those letters are his hole card he's going to play, and unless people who were CLEARLY not involved in the practices he claims to want to stop speak up and demonstrate that his actions are malicious and are an attempt to gain payment for something he claims not to want, this very quickly becomes an apparent attempt at extortion from some, an injurious business practice to others, and a myopic stance by a misguided man.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 23, 2005, 12:30:02 pm
DK - My thoughts exactly.  I always go back to the marquee seller's he shutdown.  It tends to invalidate his other claims. 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RayB on February 23, 2005, 12:43:57 pm
Since people seem to like repeating what's already been said... I'll do the same:

Even if he had NOT threatened Marquee printers, etc... Even if all we had seen was his "good intentions"... NO ONE APPOINTED HIM AS THE MAME SHERIFF. It's up to the MAME devs to police illegal sale of their software, and it's up to the individual game companies (or the Software Piracy Association) to police the sale of ROMs.

He also doesn't own the logo, so he's an idiot regardless of any intentions he claims.

Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: unclet on February 23, 2005, 12:54:32 pm
I like his explanation and I think the Mame community should work with Ultracade and get the logo registered/owned by Mame development.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Lilwolf on February 23, 2005, 01:04:07 pm
btw, the mame team has asked people to stop really talking about it (mame specific... I think the ebay issue is still up for grabs). 

Aaron is doing all the legal stuff and they don't want a bunch of talk about it until then.

It sounds like in the end, Ultracade has offered the mame team the trademark (with conditions).  The mame team (nearly them all) are against people using mames name to sell any product (IE mame cabinets... but I would hope they are fine with component items like Oscar mentioning his spinners run great with mame but I don't know). 

Another thing to mention.  Ultracade (Dave?) sent numerous emails to the mame team offering to help the mame team trademark MAME... but he sent them to very old email addresses from the readme file and never thought the check mame.net... duh...

But all in all.  Ultracade is not going after mame itself... especially now... But is going after the commercial use of the mame name....

I still think hes a slime.. but speculation isn't helping... and Aarons website is the place to go for updates.... 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 23, 2005, 01:14:33 pm
It sounds like in the end, Ultracade has offered the mame team the trademark (with conditions).
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 01:19:45 pm
There is no way anyone should work with this guy.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: menace on February 23, 2005, 01:35:13 pm
where do we read the "official" mame devs position on this?--have they issued a statement or anything--i have no desire to wade through 3 days of posts on mame.net for the one nugget of info.   I would think if the mame.net people are on the ball it would be on the front page as I would think this would be considered a major issue.  Anyways--anyhelp on official responses for those of us not in the know?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 23, 2005, 01:38:02 pm
I am going to wrap up and unsubscribe from the thread for now, here are my parting thoughts -

-I find it questionable that he made a good faith effort to contact
the MameDevs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 23, 2005, 01:39:31 pm
where do we read the "official" mame devs position on this?--have they issued a statement or anything--i have no desire to wade through 3 days of posts on mame.net for the one nugget of info.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 01:39:58 pm
http://www.aarongiles.com/
If you read the comments, bear in mind they are not his.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 23, 2005, 02:05:29 pm
I am on the fence with some of the cabinet makers
on this issue.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 23, 2005, 02:23:52 pm
SOOOO, would this mean Emdkay's marwuees, anything with mame one them, is not legal to sellt hen without permission from the mame devs (Nicola, Haze, Aaron Giles...)
Legally, emdkay needs permission from both the artist who designed the MAME logo and the artist who designed the marquee containing the logo.  Santoro got permission to use the logo on tokens from the people at mame.net in exchange for having the mame.net URL appear on the token.  The word MAME itself doesn't need permission as it's not yet trademarked. 

--Chris
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 23, 2005, 02:50:26 pm
SOOOO, would this mean Emdkay's marwuees, anything with mame one them, is not legal to sellt hen without permission from the mame devs (Nicola, Haze, Aaron Giles...)
Legally, emdkay needs permission from both the artist who designed the MAME logo and the artist who designed the marquee containing the logo.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Chris on February 23, 2005, 03:37:14 pm
Right, I meant when it gets trademarked by the devs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: M3talhead on February 23, 2005, 03:44:44 pm
....I just had the worst nightmare.....

(http://img220.exs.cx/img220/9886/untitled17vs.jpg)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 23, 2005, 04:40:20 pm
Thats scary!
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 23, 2005, 05:45:40 pm
Right, I meant when it gets trademarked by the devs.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Santoro on February 23, 2005, 05:59:59 pm
Right, I meant when it gets trademarked by the devs.  Then anyone wanting to sell something with mame on it will need permission.
That is correct for the word MAME, but the art itself is under automatic copyright, so he really should get permission for that now.

Actually....

http://www.mame.net/features.html


"The MAME logo was designed by chemical and cleaned up by Exodus3D. The high resolution version is available here (765 kB JPEG, resolution 5000x4000). A version without the purple flash is available here (531 kB JPEG, resolution 4500x1500). The usage is free for non-commercial purposes (such as websites), for any commercial purpose (includes use in magazines), please ask a permission from the webmaster. "

It actually took me a while to determine the email address of the webmaster.  My first email to webmaster@mame.net went nowhere.  I had to poke around the site before I found it.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 23, 2005, 07:43:13 pm
This is annoying

Did oyu click on it?  Did you not read one of my other replies?  Go ahead, click on it.  You make saint some money :)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 10:13:58 pm
hold please... :)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 23, 2005, 10:37:49 pm
I just noticed this thread appear as the #8 Google hit for "ultracade"  :-X
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 23, 2005, 10:39:51 pm
I just noticed this thread appear as the #8 Google hit for "ultracade"
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: krick on February 23, 2005, 10:55:48 pm
This is annoying

Did oyu click on it?
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Goz on February 23, 2005, 10:56:38 pm
So we need more referrences to Ultracade. Maybe periodically a link to an ultracade page.

Maybe it can be #1 if we truly apply ourselves  ;D

-Goz
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 11:15:18 pm
GRRRR >:( >:(
I had a big post all done up and I lost it.  I'm pissed.  It's big news too.  Now all my links are gone... GRRRR >:( >:(
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: RetroJames on February 23, 2005, 11:16:43 pm
I just noticed this thread appear as the #8 Google hit for "ultracade"
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 23, 2005, 11:35:50 pm
1- Goodtime Novelty was doing business as Chicago Gaming Company towards the end of 2004.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: M3talhead on February 24, 2005, 12:42:27 am
So we need more referrences to Ultracade. Maybe periodically a link to an ultracade page.

Maybe it can be #1 if we truly apply ourselves  ;D

-Goz


..Or, we could all start referring to it as "the 'u' word".
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 24, 2005, 10:13:11 am

If I click on that ultrafacade Pays Google Money, and Google in turn pays Saint a % of that.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: DreamArcades on February 24, 2005, 04:01:23 pm
Just don't click on the Dream Arcades Link, unless you are really interested. If everyone clicked on my link I'd be in big trouble. =-)
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: SirPoonga on February 24, 2005, 04:56:05 pm
Just don't click on the Dream Arcades Link, unless you are really interested. If everyone clicked on my link I'd be in big trouble. =-)

Already did because it came up NEXT to the ultracade ad :)

BTW, clicking on an ad is a fixed rate I think.  And the ultracade ad is a link to bmigaming, not sure if ultracade gets anything if oyu click on the ad at all.  My guess is ultracade has to pay bmigaming for the advertising.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 24, 2005, 06:17:34 pm
I believe you basically set a maximum amount of monthly funding that you're willing to pay per click. 
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: emdkay on February 24, 2005, 06:22:18 pm
BTW, I won't be commenting much further on the Foley situation.  I would however like to see the topic of this post changed as I'd like to link to it from my home page. 

Suggestion...

Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 24, 2005, 09:05:04 pm


Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud


Don't buy an Arcade Legends machine either.  We all should be clear and name ALL of Foley's products.  Especially when Ultracade is more for commercial use while "Arcade Legends" is more for home use.  They're all run by the same jacka55.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 24, 2005, 09:14:14 pm
Just so you all know, I will never be reviewing any of their products.

(Not that they'd even talk to me now, but even so...
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 24, 2005, 10:48:25 pm
Arcade Legends
*cough* Shill bid *cough*

"User ID kept Private"
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: CheffoJeffo on February 25, 2005, 07:36:55 am
Quote
" We all should be clear and name ALL of Foley's products."

I was browsing through the new Happ's site last night and came across this "Universal Video Converter", which apparently allows you to run any monitor from any PC signal.

Sounded interesting ... until I got to "Universal Video Converter is a trademark of UltraCade Technologies"

I'll be sticking with Andy's ArcadeVGA boards, thanks ...

Cheers,

JAKD
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: Thenasty on February 25, 2005, 08:09:11 am
Just so you all know, I will never be reviewing any of their products.

(Not that they'd even talk to me now, but even so...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: GGKoul on February 25, 2005, 09:52:02 am
Just so you all know, I will never be reviewing any of their products.

(Not that they'd even talk to me now, but even so...
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: KevSteele on February 25, 2005, 11:21:44 am
Just so you all know, I will never be reviewing any of their products.

(Not that they'd even talk to me now, but even so...
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: rchadd on February 25, 2005, 11:41:29 am
could i trademark the name "Arcade Leg Ends"?  ;D
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: nighthawk2099 on February 25, 2005, 11:57:33 am
I think we should TM the word "CADE".  Then send a letter Mr. Foley to stop his use of the word.........

Then he would have to call the company

"UltraThingAmabob"

 ;D (TM)
Nighthakw2099 (TM)
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: JoyMonkey on February 25, 2005, 12:49:57 pm
Am I understanding this correctly? Dave Foley is saying that he has paid some emulator developers to license portions of source code for use by Quantum3D with Ultracade- right?

From the Ultracade site:
Quote
We have licensed technology from many of the community
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 25, 2005, 07:34:36 pm
Might want to start with author of the frontend Ultrastyle.  Foley's "Arcade Legends" Machines appear to use it (or something close).   I wonder if that Chris guy knows?  Maybe he stole it from Foley?  Beats me.  I've never used that front end before and don't know the history of it.

http://www.mameworld.net/ultrastyle/history.html - at bottom of page -
compare the screenshots to:
http://www.quarterarcade.com/GamePicture.aspx?c=&g=3569&o=4&m=0 - have to look close -

IMO, nobody should ever touch "Arcade Legends", Ultracade, Chicago Gaming or have anything to do with Foley's Nextune crap.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SirPoonga on February 25, 2005, 07:40:52 pm
Might want to start with author of the frontend Ultrastyle.  Foley's "Arcade Legends" Machines appear to use it (or something close).   I wonder if that Chris guy knows?  Maybe he stole it from Foley?  Beats me.  I've never used that front end before and don't know the history of it.

Goto the software forum, search for the announcement post of him releasing this FE.  Alot of people have wanted an ultracade like FE.  He made one like it.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SirPoonga on February 25, 2005, 08:14:36 pm
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=140128&cid=11751164
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Bones on February 25, 2005, 09:03:04 pm
I wonder if a printout of this thread is being carried around in someones suitcase to be used somehow, somewhere?

Maybe they are watching us. Maybe we are all next. The time has come to....huh, someone
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: KevSteele on February 25, 2005, 09:43:40 pm
I've just posted my thoughts on the situation for all to read:

http://www.retroblast.com/

Hopefully there's enough in the RetroBlast "review fund" to cover any retaliatory litigation...  :-[

Kevin
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Popcorrin on February 25, 2005, 10:53:12 pm
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=140128&cid=11751164

This guy is all about one thing and that is money. 
In previous letters he writes that everything about mame is illegal, and he goes so far to shutdown auctions that mention mame.  Now he is talking about selling roms thru a new venture of his.  I wonder what emulator he will advertise that these roms will work with, you know with mame being illegal and all?

I just hope the mame devs do nothing to work with this weasel.  If they have to change the name of mame so be it.  IMO it's better than giving this crook a single thing that he wants.  I can't believe he takes the name mame hostage and then tries to come off sounding like he did it for the good of the community.

I read somewhere before that ultracade had it's very own emulator and I assumed that was true,  but since Foley has shown his true colors I am guessing he probably borrowed the code for the ultracade emulator!  I wish there was a way to find out.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 26, 2005, 12:09:23 am
Foley's post goes like this:
Quit picking on me... I'm not the bad guy here... you are... by the way I'm "Working on accelerating the rollout of our iROMs(TM) service to bring ROM distribution to the MAME community, following the music industries success in content distribution. We have put together a business model and later this summer will start to roll out affordable, legal ROM images for personal use on PC's running emulation software."

What a joke.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 26, 2005, 05:20:18 am
Surely this would eliminate the argument that competeing machines sold on e-bay are dubious??.

If he intends to roll out a pay-per rom service specifically for users of MAME then anyone can legally compete with his business by advertising systems that can operate with multiple roms can't they?.

I was as incensed as everyone else about what he tried to do and no doubt he is still just trying to make a fast buck from the MAME community. However it won't necessarily be a bad thing in the long term.

I'm not interested in lining Foley's pockets and I wouldn't use his iRoms service (unless MAMEdevs hammer out a deal where they get a percentage of any sales). It does pave the way for other people to launch competing ROM services and to compete in the Cab market though.

The lack of (affordable) legitimately available ROMs is the only dubious part of this hobby and it would be nice to see that particular situation resolved.
As someone stated earlier in the thread, MAMEing is becoming increasingly popular and it would only be a matter of time before corporate heads started looking in this direction. Much better if legitimate services can be up and running before anyone else decides to try to hijack the scene for profit.

Still would rather see the profits from ROM sales going directly to MAMEdev and or the original authors though. At the end of the day they have invested years of graft into this thing and fully deserve any returns. Perhaps some kind soul with the knowledge and contacts will help them out, or maybe other enthusiasts will launch competing services.....I hope so.

Now that MAMEdev are involved directly I think we need to wait and see what develops. Too much speculation could ultimately be counter-productive.

Its a shame really that Foley has dragged his name through the mud on the issue. If they had simply stayed out of the equation and just quietly launched an iRoms service they would probably have been on to a real winner.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: DarkSoul1 on February 26, 2005, 08:47:26 am
Are Mr. Foley's cabinets based on a specific design that may be licenced to someone else?  Perhaps someone could apply for a patent/trademark over his particular style of cabinet AND THEN STOP HIM USING THEM.


Totally disgusted by this guy's attempt to hijack the MAME scene.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: RetroJames on February 26, 2005, 09:14:18 am




Open Letter to the Slashdot / MAME Community (Score:2, Informative)
by davidrfoley (861405) on Tuesday February 22, @07:57PM (#11751164) 
I'd like to take a moment and respond to the dribble that has been sent our way in response to this weekend's flurry about our trademark application with regards to MAME. I'd appreciate it if this would be spread to the same websites, blogs, and newsgroups that the unfounded rumors were that resulted in the very juvenile attacks on me personally, and my company. I have been in communication with one of the original MAME authors, and we are will be working together to ensure that the MAME trademark is assigned to the proper individuals and protect it from commercial exploitation, as was our intent all along. We have even offered to pay for all costs associated with that process. During the past three days, I have received many personal attacks and insults from several immature individuals that read a simple headline, and then go off on a child like rant about what they think we are doing. This was followed by several denial of service attacks on our corporate resources, phone calls to my office and cell phone. I received 270 emails in response to this. Most of them were single line insults against me personally. A few were misguided, but well articulated remarks. Even fewer were questions, asking for more information. I took the time to answer each and every message personally, explaining the facts. Many return to email addresses were not valid. Some people refused to listen to my explanation, or didn't care to believe what I told them. A few even apologized for their statements and we started a productive dialog and exchange of ideas. In summary, what we are doing moving forward is: Working directly with the original authors to secure the TM assigned in their name and protect the mark from commercial exploitation as expressed in the MAME distribution license Continuing to work with all major publishers to eliminate all illegal distribution of ROMs. Working on accelerating the rollout of our iROMs(TM) service to bring ROM distribution to the MAME community, following the music industries success in content distribution. We have put together a business model and later this summer will start to roll out affordable, legal ROM images for personal use on PC's running emulation software. We are working with all of the major publishers to get as much contact as possible, available to the general public. Continuing to police eBay and the Internet for sites that reference unlicensed games 
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: danny_galaga on February 26, 2005, 09:26:49 am
i really hate to say ' i told you so' but i recall some guys here saying that no one would EVER bother trying to crack down on MAME. I'm sad that it's happening, but it was never out of the question...
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 26, 2005, 10:29:34 am
ROM's haven't been proven to be illegal.  They haven't been to court.  It's just been courtesy that the ROM sites pull them down when asked.  There is no way I will use an iROM service from this guy, even if the MAME dev's get "a cut".  It's their emulator, not his.  He's trying to bully himself into a middleman position.

His statement:
"I have been in communication with one of the original MAME authors, and we are will be working together to ensure that the MAME trademark is assigned to the proper individuals and protect it from commercial exploitation"

Who are these "proper individuals" he is talking about?  And who is one of the "original authors"?  Did he find someone that contributed something in the beginning, but now is pissed and they want to try and take the whole thing away?
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: KevSteele on February 26, 2005, 10:34:52 am
Aaron Giles is working to get the MAME trademark assigned to Nicolas. I have no idea what level of "cooperation" they are offering to Mr. Foley.

Until I see confirmation that he has withdrawn his trademark application, I don't really trust anything he has to say...

Kevin
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SirPoonga on February 26, 2005, 11:17:42 am
How does creating iRoms stop people form selling mame cabinets on ebay?  Doesn;t it encourage it then?
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: _Iz- on February 26, 2005, 11:29:17 am
it protects foley's revenue stream...
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 26, 2005, 11:43:22 am
IMO, this whole thing is Foley's attempt to roll out his iROM's thing.  I think starroms should try to capitalize on this.  They have the respected name to pull it off, I (for one) will boycott it completely if it has anything to do with Foley, Ultracade, or Arcade Legends.  I hope that any company even thinking about this will take what Foley has done into consideration.

Yes, it encourages it.  What Foley is trying to do (speculation) is get the MAME devs to let him use MAME as a promotion for his products while pushing everyone else out.  That way he gets money from each angle.  I really hope the MAME dev's don't give in to this clown.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: M3talhead on February 26, 2005, 12:08:40 pm
I'm still pissed about the whole "Maybe we can come to some arrangement over royalties...." remark.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: DrewKaree on February 26, 2005, 12:10:05 pm

Edit: *Wishes he owned a handgun.


That bat of yours doesn't really help laying under the bed after all, does it?  (sorry, couldn't resist ;D )

THROW A BULLET AT HIM!



And the constant backpedaling by this dude is testament to him realizing he's in the wrong and is trying to save face without letting go of his righteous indignation and moral outrage at all the "crooks" out there "stealing sales from him". 

Maybe it's just his outrageous prices and nutjob attitude that comes through to potential customers, eh Dave?  ::)
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: geomartin on February 26, 2005, 12:44:55 pm
I began pouring through the Ultracade site this morning after reading some of Mr Foley's replies.  I noticed something interesting in his advertisement for the Ultracade.  If you look at Arcade Products/Ultracade Multi Game System/Individual Game Paks you can read the following from about individual Game Paks he offers "Many times, the games are not available for license, however the original game boards are still
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 26, 2005, 12:50:05 pm
You might want to scribble that out Drew... :police: :police: :police:
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: geomartin on February 26, 2005, 12:51:59 pm
Ooops!
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: daywane on February 26, 2005, 01:26:32 pm
I cant stand it....
Jerks name = David Foley
My name =     David Farley
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: RetroJames on February 26, 2005, 09:59:47 pm
I began pouring through the Ultracade site this morning after reading some of Mr Foley's replies.
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 26, 2005, 10:35:30 pm
Edited to remove my sarcastic response to a post I find erroneous, off-base, misguided and a poor attempt to make me feel sorry for someone who is attempting to take something that isn't his and trying to put people out of business with threats of legal action so he himself can make more money

This is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: vader on February 26, 2005, 10:38:41 pm
I guess since you are feeling Mr. Foley's pain, your are going to delete MAME and all of your " legal roms " that you rightfully aquired  and instead purchase one of his machines so he can afford to feed the employees.  IMO, the MAME machine are not hurting his business for the exact reasons you stated, he sells commercial ventures....bars, pool halls, etc...as the proprietor of those businesses would be insane to put a machine with roms he didn't pay for.  I have no problem with Mr. Foley making a buck and protecting his business, he just approaced it all the wrong way, shouldn't he have contacted the MAME dev's first and discussed the TM issue and I don't mean the half-hearted attempts he's made....

Just my opinion......don't mean to jump on anyone here, but this stuff is getting old.....

Tim
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 26, 2005, 10:42:04 pm
Foley is not targeting those who download roms for their own use.
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: APFelon on February 26, 2005, 10:49:33 pm

Quote
I think you need to look at this MAME trademark thing again, and think what it would be like if Capcom or Namco wanted to get back into the classic arcade business.  Mr. Foley would seem to be small potatoes, in that regard.

Capcom and Namco wouldn't be foolish enough to try and trademark the MAME name and logo. Nintendo has aggressively attacked emulation since the early days of MAME through UltraHLE, and look where that got them. Sony tried to squish Bleem, and... well...

Sadly, I think you are totally missing the point. It isn't about Mr. Ultracades Smartypants protecting his investment. It's about attempting to steal the MAME name and logo illegally, trying to shake down vendors for "royalties", having totally legal machine sales pulled from EBay  and justifying his borderline illegal (not really borderline, his behavior WAS illegal)  behavior by claiming that he was trying to protect the IP of his licensed software and then deciding to play the victim (all the while whoring that stupid iRoms idea). If the issue wasn't so serious, I would call it nothing more than pathetic.

I think you had better get a better grasp on the situation before you use your fourth post EVER on this forum to make a fool out of yourself. Seriously, man. Read up on it.

He has proven himself to be a really, really oily character, and woe to anyone who spends their cash on him or any of his ventures.

APf
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: 1UP on February 26, 2005, 10:49:53 pm
Good for him?
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: Tommy Boy on February 26, 2005, 10:51:39 pm
Hey Lloyd --

My annual salary review is Monday.  If the boss screws me on my bonus should I head down to the Jaguar dealership next door and steal an XJ-8 off the lot?  Would that make up for it?  I'd have a point, by your logic, to take what wasn't mine.  I guess that would show balls  ::)

Why is it so hard for Foley and his shills to understand that the rightful owners of the MAME intellectual property (including the TM) are the MAME devs.  Nicola and company have absolutely NOTHING to do ROM distribution -- legal or otherwise -- NOTHING!!

So hear this...stealing the MAME trademark has NOTHING to do with Foley's argument and he's only hurting the MAME devs who are innocent bystanders in all of this.

Honestly, this shouldn't be a hard concept to grasp... ???
Title: Re: Sad Times at Ultracade
Post by: quarterback on February 26, 2005, 10:57:25 pm
Good for him?
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SirPoonga on February 26, 2005, 11:33:16 pm
Has anyone actually seen any type of user-agreement in an old cabinet?  What ARE the rules regarding those old boards?  Meaning at the time, when say PacMan was released, an op buys the game with the boards and off he goes.  Was there ever any  documentation from Namco/Midway saying, you get this cabinet, this board, no repro etc etc?

This is a gray area.  Until proven in court no one will really know.  There's arguments that having the pcb but a backup on your PC is not legal. 
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 26, 2005, 11:43:17 pm
Has anyone actually seen any type of user-agreement in an old cabinet?
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: 1UP on February 26, 2005, 11:55:56 pm
Having a backup would probably not get you sued, that's the important thing.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: 1UP on February 27, 2005, 12:22:10 am
Looks like Foley may have stolen more than the MAME name...

http://sediment.semifat.net/entry/2003/05/04-192910.html

I can see it now...Ultracade launches its iROMSTM sevice, and gets served by Apple:

"Dear Mr. Foley,
 
You are in violation of our trademark on the lowercase letter "iTM".
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: sasuke_kun12 on February 27, 2005, 12:28:33 am
Petition anyone?
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: mahuti on February 27, 2005, 12:31:23 am
Generally it's considered OK to make a backup with the intention that it is only to be used to replace the original software in its original format in the case of corruption or loss. It is generally suggested that the use of that backup on another platform is not legal. Nintendo SPECIFICALLY states that you do not have that right with their dvd and cartridge media, however. Their stance is generally pretty hostile to emulation.

Basically point by point, Nintendo bashes every thing about emulation in no uncertain terms.

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: 1UP on February 27, 2005, 12:59:42 am

Basically point by point, Nintendo bashes every thing about emulation in no uncertain terms.

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom

WOW.   :o
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SOAPboy on February 27, 2005, 01:02:46 am

Basically point by point, Nintendo bashes every thing about emulation in no uncertain terms.

http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom

WOW.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SpamMe on February 27, 2005, 04:38:23 am
..Snip-
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I did not get into the Mame scene to get free games.  I did it because I wanted to play the ORIGINAL games, which are harder and harder to find in arcades these days.

I think you're probably in the majority, as far as the people here go. Most people do not build $200-1000 cabinets just to play a few games for free (the exception being, perhaps, the few people who show up once in a while to ask if <recently released arcade game> has been emulated yet).
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: daywane on February 27, 2005, 04:42:41 am
why is it just Mame?
there are other arcade emulators. Why is the @$$hole bringing MAME into the spotlight?
( not that I wish him to drag any others down)
I must have missed this in the posts. How come he can sell them? he might have the boards but is he passing the boards along with his arcades.
he should run out soon.
As far as the EBay comments he made . How does he know if the Roms are on there. I did not have any on the one I sold. Maybe I can sue him.
They were NOT on the hard drive or in the PC or shipped with the arcade.
I just told them were to get them , same place I got mine
 >:(
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: lloydcom on February 27, 2005, 04:53:23 am
I had this in a new thread, but was stopped because "there was a thread already regarding it" so I'll repost it here.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 27, 2005, 06:15:08 am
Have you actually bothered to read the issues debated in this thread?.

Its not a protection issue. The reason so many have been incensed is generally twofold.

Firstly that someone with no connection to MAME would try to trademark it purely for their own financial gain and to prevent anyone from competing with them.

Secondly because prior to all of this blowing up, that same person contacted people providing MAME related services (artwork services to enthusiasts) claiming that he owned the trademark and trying to extort royalties, establishing that the attempt to trademark was a clear attempt to exploit that trademark commercially.

Since it has become public knowledge a great deal of backpedalling has been done that doesn't seem to be consistent with the actions that were taken.

People can empathise with someone trying to stamp out illegal practice to protect a legitimate business. What people cannot empathise with is someone identifying a business opportunity and attempting to steal someone elses IP and further use that IP to claim royalties from legitimate vendors and strangle any competition.

Subsequently there has been a great deal of negative attention and claims have been made that the attempt to TM MAME was a benign action designed to prevent illegal practice. That same person has now announced they intend to launch an iRoms service catering to people who only a couple of weeks ago were accused of using an 'illegal' emulator.

It was further stated there was no interest in using the MAME logo or TM in any commercial capacity and yet they are preparing to go live with iRoms which provides legitimate roms for use with MAME.

Its a shame that the attempt was made in this way. If Mr Foley had simply tried to launch legitimate support services (like iRoms) he would have recieved widespread support from the MAME community. You will find most of the people who operate here would not only support actions to close down illegal vendors but would welcome the opportunity to download roms legally with open arms. We are not gamers trying to beat the system or get a free ride. We are enthusiasts preserving properties that without projects like MAME would be irrevocably lost in their original format.

Its important to be clear here that Mr Foley only elected to make contact with MAME devs and adopted this inclusive attitude, after people started to complain that he was claiming ownership of the mark and trying to use it to claim royalties from other vendors.

If you feel this is simply propagandist hype then by all means contact emdkay, scott at MameMarquees and other vendors who are not involved directly or indirectly in the trade or promotion of illegal roms, for clarification of what took place directly after Mr Foley filed for the MAME TM.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 27, 2005, 06:59:23 am
Sorry for the double post.

Quote
They were NOT on the hard drive or in the PC or shipped with the arcade.
I just told them were to get them , same place I got mine

This is all part of the same issue. Even if someone is not selling a machine with illegal content, they are still using the potential for using that illegal content to promote and sell it. In this context the argument for removing adverts makes perfect sense as it does pervert an individuals ability to compete using legitimate licenced products.

After all, would you buy a product that comes loaded with x number of licenced games or a cheaper product that comes with no games but the vendor states they will show you where to get thousands of illegal games for free?.

My issue is with the (apparent) original purpose behind the attempt to TM the mame name and logo for simple financial gain and to take complete control of the whole marketplace in general.

I can understand the ability to trademark the stylistic MAME logo, but surely the abbreviation of the actual words Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator simply relates to its function (like DVD or TV). I didn't think you could trademark that sort of thing anyway.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: mahuti on February 27, 2005, 09:27:44 am
OH, and Nintendo doesn't leave room for making backups. When you buy one of their products, there is a note in the manual or on another piece of paper saying that their media won't go bad, and you don't have the right to back the software up. I'm sure somewhere else on the site it mentions that, but I've read it a number of times after buying GBA carts.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: APFelon on February 27, 2005, 10:26:06 am
Quote
  Have you actually bothered to read the issues debated in this thread?

These points were made clearly on this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,32687.0.html

But he is either being hard headed or willfully ignorant.  Either way, he is trolling at this point.

APf
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 27, 2005, 11:05:14 am
http://www.hyperware.com/

Another of Foley's "businesses".  Do a whois lookup and you'll see.  Anyone ever see the inside of an Arcade Legends or Ultracade?  I wonder...

lloydcom:
I just trademarked "lloydcom TM".  So don't use it anymore.  Get the picture?  None of us here support people selling roms on ebay, and none of us here support Foley accusing his competitors of doing so.  He is taking away their business with bogus accusations, so I don't give a rats ass about what happens to him.  His employees should all quit and start their own legitimate company.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on February 27, 2005, 12:31:52 pm
All I have changed the title of the thread as follows:

Re-Edit by 1hookedspacecadet: As the thread was started by me, I would prefer to keep the title as a general heading rather than a call to arms.  We do not know all of the relevant facts yet and I would rather see how this plays out before appearing to call for a boycott.  Thanks.

Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: DrewKaree on February 27, 2005, 01:11:00 pm

We have one small problem to this whole Mr. Foley issue who is attempting to trademark MAME. 


Clearly you haven't read this thread, or as was stated, are being willfully ignorant and are now just trolling (although your disclaimer that you aren't affiliated with ul-tra-kade (don't wanna get sued for using his trademarked name ::) ) seems a bit fishy after reading your letter)

Quote

with families that have mouths to feed and bills to pay

Your point is irrelevant.  It has NOTHING to do with the discussion, and isn't even relevant enough to warrant consideration within the discussion.  Again, had you read the comments and thread, you'd have known that, or are simply being willfully ignorant and are now just trolling.


Quote

He is trying to make a point here, which we are all sadly missing.  MAME roms are not free.  They never were (except those who donated) and we have individuals who are selling arcade cabs with the MAME theme of playing them all.


And in making your point, you again demonstrate your willful ignorance and inability to distinguish between the argument at hand, and what's actually happening. 

Mame roms are not free
Individuals are selling cabs with the mame theme.

Those two things have nothing to do with this discussion, EXCEPT to extort money from companies who have nothing to do with roms (emdkay), AND to unfairly shut down auctions of the competition who have nothing to do with roms (Dream Arcades)

The point YOU are sadly missing (although I suspect it's your CHOOSING to miss it) is that this entire fiasco has nothing to do with MAME, and everything to do with Mr Foley attempting to get himself as much publicity as possible, and in the process, as much money in as many ways as possible.

Quote
I also think at the end of all this ROM question of legality, we will see Mr. Foley folding up operation of his business, which is a shame.  When was it wrong to play by the rules and sell legal product?  When did that happen?

When did the "rules" state you can trademark something that you had absolutely NOTHING to do with, and has been out there for years?  When did THAT happen? 

While you are entitled to your opinion, choosing to ignore the main points of this debate have done nothing to help your case, and will have painted you, in the eyes of many, as obtuse, thereby making it easier to dismiss your strange opinion and inability to distinguish the crux of the matter.

Trademarking MAME has absolutely nothing to do with his business - and YOU know it!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on February 27, 2005, 01:28:50 pm
If MAME were a "NEW" invention, fine... but...

MAME predates Ultracade.

How can poor poor Mr. Ultracade have to take these drastic measures to "defend himself and his income" from something that had existed before he even founded his business?

 :P
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on February 27, 2005, 01:34:39 pm
Quote
Your point is irrelevant.  It has NOTHING to do with the discussion, and isn't even relevant enough to warrant consideration within the discussion.  Again, had you read the comments and thread, you'd have known that, or are simply being willfully ignorant and are now just trolling.



Quote
And in making your point, you again demonstrate your willful ignorance and inability to distinguish between the argument at hand, and what's actually happening.

It looks as though I have created a talking point. LOL

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on February 27, 2005, 01:40:27 pm
Indeed, APF, you have.  I'm just surprised at you.  I found it SO useful and descriptive, I took the time to do the following:

"being hard headed or willfully ignorant.  Either way, he is trolling at this point."TM

Attempts to circumvent my trademark by selective choosing of the words therein will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and with the backing of ul-tra-kade and its proprietors, unless they lose so much business from this endeavor that they can't afford a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. 

 ;D  Oh....cease-and-desist, yada yada yada and whatnot  ;)
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 02:20:15 pm
After all, would you buy a product that comes loaded with x number of licenced games or a cheaper product that comes with no games but the vendor states they will show you where to get thousands of illegal games for free?.
NOOOOO.  Many ebay sellers are smart.  They will tell you were to get LEGAL roms and other games that could be played with arcade controls.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 27, 2005, 03:13:51 pm
Yup. Was just trying to make the point that 'technically' its legal but in real terms it does damage the potential for legitimate vendors to compete.

I just think a more responsible attitude to the way things are advertised now will leave less manouvering room for other people like Mr Foley to try to take the moral high ground and attack the hobby in future.

At the end of the day I'm not saying people shouldn't sell the product, just perhaps that products should be described a little more creatively without alluding to the availability of unlicensed software.

After all, if this situation was already the case, Mr Foley wouldn't have been able to provide any justification for having competitors pulled from ebay and likely would have failed in efforts to get their products removed.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on February 27, 2005, 03:21:02 pm
Heh, didn't see this before...

Looks like Foley has had his share of trouble from copyright holders in the past.

http://www.ultracade.com/flashsite.html

Go to the news link and read the top story.

He obviously has been stung quite recently by selling machines with ROMs pulled from Namco boards.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: saint on February 27, 2005, 03:28:10 pm
Without weighing in on one side or another ... this statement below, as I understand it, is incorrect. eBay does not investigate claims as I've been told. If someone fills out the paperwork to claim ownership of a copyright, eBay takes them at face value and will pull any challenged auctions, regardless of actual merit.

--- saint


After all, if this situation was already the case, Mr Foley wouldn't have been able to provide any justification for having competitors pulled from ebay and likely would have failed in efforts to get their products removed.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 27, 2005, 03:40:16 pm
You may well be correct. I just think there's little point in overtly offering people like Foley a stick to beat the scene over the head with.

With just a little care in the way auctions are worded, hopefully it would remove what little credibility people like Foley accredit themselves with when they try to pull this sort of caper. And could help to divert any unwelcome attention in future.

(Off topic, just ordered a copy of your book from Amazon, hopefully will minimise the possibility of my blowing myself through the wall when I'm wiring my first cab up shortly  ;D)



Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 27, 2005, 03:42:01 pm
Since when did we get a softspot for --missioncontrol-- Foley?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 27, 2005, 04:00:16 pm
No disagreement here, i've maintained throughout the thread that his attempt at backpedalling to justify his actions after he tried to hijack MAME for himself and extort money from people was deploreable.

I understand the situation as far as ebay is concerned. The point I was trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to make wasn't offering a concession for Foley or his actions.

Simply that there is a fair amount of ambiguous (sp?) language used in the sale of some items and sometimes items do skirt dangerously close to the fringes of legitimacy.

Without anyone having to change anything they are selling I think it would make sense if by simply changing the angle of some of the sales pitches it should remove any possibility that someone might be able to try to justify these sort of actions in future.

I know it might not stop ebay from pulling them, but it would certainly remove any possibility that someone like Foley could release any more bleeding heart statements after the fact about how they were simply protecting a legitimate interest from dubious practices.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 27, 2005, 04:34:04 pm
We just need to watch what is said so someone just stepping into the situation is clear on where the community stands.  Foley took the --missioncontrol-- approach and is now trying to back off just enough to seem like he's "ok".  He's even going so far as to change his "release letters" about his position.  We need to stand up and put him out of business before he does that to the other retailers.  If we don't, we'll be cutting our own throats.  That dude is a crook and whatever happens to his business or his employees is his fault, not ours.

Boycott Ultrcade and Arcade Legends!

"Looks like Foley has had his share of trouble from copyright holders in the past."
Foley never had permission from those guys to sell their roms or use their art on his machines & advertisements.  Sounds familiar huh?  THAT is the type of guy this is.  "boo hoo, now who can I steal from?"
He is shutting down auctions now for cabs that are capable of playing ROMs, when a few months ago, his machines came with them included.  How anyone can consider him as being legit is beyond me.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 05:45:08 pm
I merged the everything else thread replies with this one.  It may be a bit confusing to read through the last couple of pages.
Title: Re: Do not deal with Ultracade - Attempted Mame Trademark Theft & Fraud
Post by: saint on February 27, 2005, 06:00:14 pm
If you have an issue with moderation, you write to me.  I don't care what your issue is or what subject you're unhappy about -- tulips, petunias, trackballs, what president is in office, the color of the sky, or the definition of the word "blue." ...  it doesn't matter.

The moderators on this private forum volunteer to assist me in running this site. This site is moderated as deemed necessary to maintain the good will and the arcade controls community oriented nature of this web site. Anything that is detrimental to that is subject to moderation. If you can not abide by that then you are at the wrong web site.

--- saint

I had this in a new thread, but was stopped because "there was a thread already regarding it" so I'll repost it here.  If this gets stopped, then I know who to write to.
======================================================== 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: lloydcom on February 27, 2005, 06:42:21 pm
Did you read my previous post?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on February 27, 2005, 06:58:29 pm
None of these comments are in dispute guys.

Almost every one of those comments is in dispute. I can only assume you're deliberately trolling now, because you're so far off the mark that even your "facts" are wrong, let alone your opinions.

It is not illegal or even against the MAME license agreement to use MAME to play games. It's been stated that the main purpose of MAME is to reproduce the games' hardware, and that being able to play the games is a happy side-effect, but that does not mean that the MAME developers are against anyone playing games via MAME.

Building hardware to play MAME games does not impact the MAME development process, nor does it hurt the MAME cause. In fact, many of the MAME hardware and cab makers are the ones who have donated the money to obtain new boards to dump. MAME has never needed "protection" from MAME hardware makers.

Where do you come up with some of this stuff?

Mr. Foley has stated a "motivation" for his actions, but he has steadfastly refused to reveal what legal right he had to appropriate the MAME logo, developed by someone else (and automatically assigned copyright protections under US law). Why not? Because he had no rights to that image.

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 07:04:51 pm
You are just trying to stir the pot.

Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.  MAME is open source, but we have individuals selling MAME related products which promote the use of roms that are not legal to use with the emulator.
Read the Bleem case.  There's nothing wrong with emulation.  Sony tried to do the whole "promotes piracy" thing.  So, are you going to CD player manufacturers and telling them to stop making CD players because it promotes people to make copies of CDs?
There are legal uses for mame.  Mame is not illegal.  And Mr. Foley should not be able to trademark name since he didn't create the name or logo.

Quote
We have keyboard encoders that works with MAME and other emulators, Light guns, top rotated joysticks interfaces for Ikari Warriors, top/down spinners for Discs of Tron.  The list goes on.  I haven't even touched on the cabs and the artwork.

Why are we building arcade controls for games we are not allowed to play, anyway?  Are you telling me these sites do not make any money on these products?  MAME is not making money, heck, it needs donations to get the boards!
We are building arcade controls to play PC games as if they were arcade games.  See the sticky note in the software forum.
Also we are building controls to play realy games.   I'm building a cocktail cabinet to play a 1942 board I am getting my hands on.
Also there are legal roms out there, see starroms.com.

Quote
So whats the quickest option to stop the madness in Mr. Foley's mind?  Trademark MAME.  Who cares if he is treadding on toes?
The people's toes he is treading on cares.  They way he is going about it is not right.  He's closing eBay auctions down that are completely legal using the excuse he trademarked MAME, which is not the case yet.  He doesn't own mame as a trademark yet so having auctions close with the reason that they are infringing upon the trademark is fraud.

Quote
Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.
If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal. 
With comments like that I'd believe you are Foley or affiliated with him.  how would you know what he is thinking?
Until Foley trademarks mame, which shouldn't happen since it isn't his,  we don't need to worry about anything.  What people are getting upset about is the way he is doing it.  It isn't right and borderlines or possibly may be illegal.  Read the replies to this thread and you will see that.

No one is disputing the fact that business people don't like competition and try and find ways to one up on competition.  There's nothing wrong with that.  What is wrong is the way Foley is going about doing it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on February 27, 2005, 07:07:17 pm
Unbelievable. You obviously have no clue as to what goes on here on this forum, within the MAME development team, or the all encompassing "emulation scene".


Did you read my previous post?  Are you being negative on purpose?
Let's recap.

Quote
Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.  MAME is open source, but we have individuals selling MAME related products which promote the use of roms that are not legal to use with the emulator.

And selling cars promotes speeding, selling beer promotes drunkeness and alcoholism, and selling blank CDs promotes piracy. Your arguments are played, tired, and backwards... and frankly boring.

Quote
We have keyboard encoders that works with MAME and other emulators, Light guns, top rotated joysticks interfaces for Ikari Warriors, top/down spinners for Discs of Tron.  The list goes on.  I haven't even touched on the cabs and the artwork. 

...many of which are used in ACTUAL ARCADE CABINETS with a factory PCB. Repro art for that worn-out Tron, stencils for that beat up Ms. Pac Man, rotating joysticks to replace those cheap POSes that came from the factory... And custom artwork is just that. Did you know that a lot of people play their consoles in their cabs? Did you know that people play storebought and shareware PC games on their cabs? Probably not, as you think that the entire market force behind arcade equipment is strictly geared towards pirating software.

Quote
Why are we building arcade controls for games we are not allowed to play, anyway?  Are you telling me these sites do not make any money on these products?  MAME is not making money, heck, it needs donations to get the boards!

You are free to opt out whenever you wish.

Quote
If this doesn't promote a competitive product with Ultracade, I don't know what does.  The MAME devs have the boards, and the legal use to develop MAME as a platform to keep these games alive, regardless if the day comes when these ROMS becomes public domain.

I read this three times and I am not clear as to what point you are trying to make. Same goes for the paragraph next up. What are you arguing? MAME doesn't make money?

Quote
So whats the quickest option to stop the madness in Mr. Foley's mind?  Trademark MAME.  Who cares if he is treadding on toes?

We care. If this hasn't become blindingly clear by now, you need a checkup from the neck up.

Quote
If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal, but they won't be allowed to release binaries.  And let's face it, what is there left to support?  Should we look at emulating 2004 arcade games next?

You keep saying "WE". As my once Social Studies teacher used to be fond of saying, "WHO is WE?" Who are you speaking for? I would bet some serious money that you are not a MAME dev nor have you been on this forum long enough to be considered a "we".  And what basis do you mount that "foley will want MAME to continue" yet "they can't release binaries" theory? How so? How could he possibly stop a multinational development team from releasing binaries? On what law is this theory based? How will he enforce US law in Italy, for example? Can you offer something with at least one foot in reality?

Quote
Most of the Japanese copied roms are already breaking Japanese law.

None of these comments are in dispute guys.

==================

Disclaimer:

My comments are my own, and I am not supporting Ultracade in anyway.  If you do not agree with my comments, fine.  But please refrain from name calling, especially towards Mr. Foley.  I won't sue you for slander, but he can, and we don't want that.

We lost some fine members last week due to trolling. Your comments, especially that rediculous disclaimer, goes far and beyond  anything that they wrote. I should hope that your stay on this forum is a brief one.

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: lloydcom on February 27, 2005, 07:30:06 pm
I'm glad you have raised those points, and answered them, and yes I do see your logic regarding the home use of MAME.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 08:41:40 pm
I don't really care if Mr. Foley grabs MAME's copyright or not.  He touched a nerve that shouldn't have happend, and I'm not endorsing his actions, but you have to understand his motives regardless.

We do understand his motives.  Like any business man, he is out to make money.  No business man like competition (but realizes it is needed).  If there is going to be competition it should be legal competition.  Foley believe that selling a cabinet on mame stating that it could run mame and 1000s of games is not legal competition.  However it is.  The cabinets are not being sold with games.  Like a CD player that can play legal and non legal  audio CDs,  an arcade cabinet with a PC in it can play legal and non legal games/roms in it.

The approach Foley went at trying to get rid of the competition is not a right and possible illegal approach.   He is rying to create a way to make the empty cabinets on ebay illegal by trademarking mame.  Since there isn't anything illegal about those cabinets he is trying to create something to make them illegal.


Yes, basically now it's just a matter of waiting to see what happens.  The mamedevs are dealing with the trademark issues, the companies Foley affected on ebay are taking their actions.

While we wait we can bicker about it :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on February 27, 2005, 09:33:05 pm
Uhhh, Mr Lloyd? Those keyboard encoders and other parts you mentioned aren't "made to work with MAME", they work with any software that will accept keyboard input and could be used as the interface for ANY game. Got it?

And as for your way earlier comment that it takes balls to do what Foley did, ... yeah well, it can be said it takes balls to step in front of a moving bus. But there is another word that can be used to describe that same act. Think about it.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: str1der on February 27, 2005, 09:48:51 pm
Not to give this toad any ideas but I wonder if he's now going to go after ACT LABS. They use MAME in the advertisment of their products. They are a little bigger fish than us I think.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on February 27, 2005, 10:09:23 pm

Did you read my previous post?  Are you being negative on purpose?


We might ask the same question as to why you didn't read any of the thread to get all the information that was given you in these few posts since your obvious disregard in your posting.

Why didn't you read any of the previous posts?  Were you being obtuse on purpose?

Your comments are similar in formation to Mr. Foley.  Bang out something that ignores what's said, until your points are dispatched step by step, at which point you change your tack.  If you aren't willing to read the thread and instead choose to ignore the points made here, then don't feign confusion about responses to your remarks.  It reeks of trolling or ignorance, but isn't a simple misunderstanding, as you seem to be trying to put it now.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DarkKobold on February 27, 2005, 10:24:08 pm
My favorite lines:

If his application is successful, Mr. Foley will want the MAME dev team to continue as normal, but they won't be allowed to release binaries.


BZZZT WRONG. Trademark is a NAME!

Quote
I don't really care if Mr. Foley grabs MAME's copyright or not.  He touched a nerve that shouldn't have happend, and I'm not endorsing his actions, but you have to understand his motives regardless.


ROTFL. He is getting a trademark. All MAME has to do is become GAME, HAME, DAME, RAME, SLAME, BAME, or, god forbid, LAME, and boom, he has zero power again.

Even if he does win, all he has is a name. He makes the community scramble for a new name, things get chaotic for a month, and boom, back in buisness under a new banner.  He couldn't win the copyright with thousands of lawyers on his side. There is too much history, too many users, etc.

Wow, talk about zero understanding of the underlying legal issues. You don't even know the difference between Trademark and Copyright. I can't believe anyone could  take your drivel serious after that.
 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on February 27, 2005, 10:24:13 pm
If you still don't understand what is going on, it is pretty crazy if you think about it.

Let's say I wrote a software CD player a few years ago.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 10:25:36 pm
What a hipocrate!

http://www.ultracade.com/flashsite.html

Goto Consumer Products.
Click on Hammer.  Read the description.

"... Compatible with ... MAME, RAINE and many other games."
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on February 27, 2005, 10:35:11 pm
What a hipocrate!

http://www.ultracade.com/flashsite.html

Goto Consumer Products.
Click on Hammer.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DarkKobold on February 27, 2005, 10:36:12 pm
Ok, I am the minority, but I think that all of this anti-mame stuff is crap.

If it wasn't for MAME, this board would not exist. When I put MAME on a cabinet, I do it out of respect for the years of work that others put in so that I may have a multigame arcade cabinet. I like to see MAME on a cabinet. People are showing their loyalty and support to the creators of the tool. How many people buy Sports apparel with their team logo? Our team is MAME folks, and they work hard so we can play hard.

That said, a lot of people put MAME on there cabinet because it is thing to do. They don't think that it holds the same meaning.

I'd like to know what Howard thinks of putting MAME on a cab. People are partly paying him homage for his work when they display the logo.



I made this a long time ago when Subzero (yeah, I know) started an anti-mame artwork thread. In reality, a lot of people agreed with him. I find it ironic and amusing that we are now fighting to keep the logo that everyone is sick of!

At least laugh at the irony that people will now get what they were wishing for, less MAME artwork! 

Don't get me wrong, I still love the MAME logo. I wanted it on the BYOAC tokens, and I wasn't gonna buy the MAME tokens unless it was on there.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on February 27, 2005, 10:46:08 pm

ROTFL. He is getting a trademark. All MAME has to do is become GAME, HAME, DAME, RAME, SLAME, BAME, or, god forbid, LAME, and boom, he has zero power again.


I know you're just making a point, so take this as being directed at lloyd, to "clear things up" for him  ::)

It won't ever be changed to LAME.  LAME is currently a GNU project, and I'm not sure what the "registration" refers to, but it was - 1999/11/17

....in case Mr Foley wanted to trademark THAT, too  ::)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 10:54:56 pm
He must have a lot staked on iRoms.
The question is, can he do what starroms hasn;t been able to do?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on February 27, 2005, 11:05:36 pm
He's certainly getting a lot of pre-publicity for his "service".

I can only hope Mr Jobs shuts down his proposed "service" for trademark infringement  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 27, 2005, 11:12:12 pm
All the publicity is bad publicity with the target audience for iRoms...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 27, 2005, 11:23:49 pm
He must have a lot staked on iRoms.
The question is, can he do what starroms hasn;t been able to do?
Put it this way:
Namco just forced his to remove their stuff from his machines 6 months ago because he never had permission for the ROM's he was selling in his cabs.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on February 28, 2005, 12:12:26 am
How many of you have paid starroms?

I have.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Havok on February 28, 2005, 12:22:44 am
Let's sick Apple on this loser - iRoms... iTunes... Hmmmm - sounds like a copywrite infringement! :police:
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mahuti on February 28, 2005, 01:08:25 am
Yahwnn... blah blah.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: danny_galaga on February 28, 2005, 03:04:21 am

I know you're just making a point, so take this as being directed at lloyd, to "clear things up" for him
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on February 28, 2005, 04:36:28 am
Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?. I thought MAME was simply an abbreiviation describing a function rather than a product (its what it does, not necessarily what it is).

Could it not be argued that MAME is just a generic term and not subject to trademarking (like DVD, CD, Tree, Automobile etc)?.

So if Foley got the TM could we not just change it to a different stylistic MAME logo and stay within the law?.

Quote
Mr. Foley is Trademarking MAME as a prospective commercial product.

You seem to have a startling grasp of the inner workings of what is going on with Foley and Ultracade for someone who has no affiliation with them?, strange you should turn up on these boards at this point in time specifically to argue his case???.

So just for the record in respect to your comment above. Through all of the backpedalling that has been done Foley has claimed that he has NO commercial interest in MAME, he just doesn't want other people being able to use it commercially to compete with him. I'm presuming then that his statements to that effect were just another smokescreen then?.

Kind of telling about the legitimacy of his position that even someone trying to fight Foley's corner can do nothing but further destroy his credibility with every statement. I fail to see how he can possibly succeed in any commercial endeavour concerning MAME now that his actions have (quite rightly) drawn him so much negative attention.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: spriggy on February 28, 2005, 06:23:36 am
Damn, the air is thick in here!?!
 ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SOAPboy on February 28, 2005, 06:29:33 am
Damn, the air is thick in here!?!
 ;)

Yeah sorry about that.. i farted. :(
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 09:00:11 am
This is funny.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on February 28, 2005, 09:38:31 am
I agree with the above.
I brings to mind. Walt Disney, he dipped into public domain and grabbed Snow White...Made a move and now claims all right to it. They have done this on many public domain books.
My kids really thought Disney really made the story of Snow White.
Live a lie long enough it becomes believable.

I am just going on my recent past... I thought seat belt laws would never pass,
smoking bans, etc. etc.... I think this Person ( D.F ) (man that's my initials . really does bother me
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on February 28, 2005, 10:11:25 am
Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?.
------8<---------snip

That point has been raised already, twice by me. I've said it, and I'll say it again: YES he could get the acronym and phrase registered to him, if it were not for the stolen logo.


Someone else asked about legal sources for the other 90% of ROMs... Well Hanaho has legal distribution rights to Capcom's entire classic library. If you buy the Hanaho HotRod joystick, you get a Capcom emulator and dozens of Capcom ROMs with it.


~Ray B.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on February 28, 2005, 10:18:25 am
Dunno if anyone can clarify this or not?.

I know Foley has applied for the Trademark concerning the Stylistic MAME logo. Can he actually get the trademark for the general term MAME though?.
------8<---------snip

That point has been raised already, twice by me. I've said it, and I'll say it again: YES he could get the acronym and phrase registered to him, if it were not for the stolen logo.


Someone else asked about legal sources for the other 90% of ROMs... Well Hanaho has legal distribution rights to Capcom's entire classic library. If you buy the Hanaho HotRod joystick, you get a Capcom emulator and dozens of Capcom ROMs with it.


~Ray B.


You can also buy the HANHO CD (CAPCOM Arcaded Hits Volume 1) at Best Buy for $9 at least they have it at my local store.

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 10:41:42 am
1up should talk to capcom... still have the emulator issue though (another thread).

I'd love to start a thread on where to obtain ROM's for commercial use, but not until Foley is out of the scene.  I don't want to help him in anyway.  We should speak directly with starroms and help them out.  I think they are the best guys to do it "right" for all concerned parties.

If Ultracade/Arcade Legends does steal the use of the "MAME" name, What will happen to all the old versions of MAME?  Will the MAME dev's have to rename them to avoid confusion with Foley?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: shawnzilla on February 28, 2005, 11:19:49 am
Just looked at DF's Ucde site and noticed that he seems to have selling rights to several games. How did he pull this off? In particular, how did he pull off getting the rights to the laserdisc games? Is he selling actual laserdiscs? I know the DL & SA are available through digital leisure, but Badland, DL II and Super Don Quixote??? Next thing you know, he'll have suckered Monkey Punch into selling him the rights to Cliffhanger....
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: clanggedin on February 28, 2005, 11:23:12 am
I think they should change the name anyway to GAME. General Arcade Machine Emulator.


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mahuti on February 28, 2005, 11:26:15 am
Nobody would be able to protect a trademark on that. lol.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 01:11:56 pm
To be "similar" to mp3 distribution, ROM's & emus are missing one thing:

DRM - Digital Rights Management.

Say Foley gets permission to spread roms through his nutty service, he's going to need an emulator that can "authorize" the use of that rom.  The problem would be that if he comes out with "Foley's Emulator", it doesn't have a reputation.  Now if he suddenly has an emulator called "MAME", that has a reputation.

Does anyone else see "You must use MAME version 1.0 or higher to play these ROMs" in the future?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on February 28, 2005, 01:17:54 pm
To be "similar" to mp3 distribution, ROM's & emus are missing one thing:

DRM - Digital Rights Management.

Say Foley gets permission to spread roms through his nutty service, he's going to need an emulator that can "authorize" the use of that rom.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: wj2k3 on February 28, 2005, 02:23:48 pm
It would seem impossible for Mr. Fooley to obtain a trademark on an item he has already publicly declared that he is not the rightful owner.

Quote
We will be happy to cancel our application and work with the M.A.M.E. team to assign it to its rightful owners;

But I quess it would seem just as impossible for someone to sue a RV manufacturer (and win) because his RV crashed on the way home from buying it after he set the cruise control and went back to make a sandwich.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: stevejt on February 28, 2005, 07:01:40 pm
I just read MOST of the last 11 pages, so forgive me if I missed this somewhere already. 

I personally beleive ultracade deserves some bad publicity for this.  But by the truth, not by cursing or calling him names,(deserving or not).  I saw many posts about people saying they would link here or post something on their website.  Has anyone put something like this together, breif, but showing ALL the most relevant facts.  Like askng for royalties,(with list of who).  Also facts like roms he has been in trouble for,(thought i read something like that, if not here, in one of the links posted here).  Like his emulator compatible "hammer" cp?

If it's true that search engines use links to help account for rating, everyone that hosts this message,(if, or after it's done) should all swap links.  I my self have one geocities page and 2 domains.  I would post something written respectably on all 3.   (Sorry, but can't chance losing my domain accounts over something less.)  It would be funny if a search for "ultracade" returned everything else but.

Steve
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: clanggedin on February 28, 2005, 07:30:52 pm
OK, I sent a email to the VeRO program about foley pulling auctions. I even used the email I believe Crazy Cooter posted and today I got this response:

Hello,

Thank you for writing.

While we appreciate your concern in this matter, due to privacy concerns eBay is not in the position to provide you with information on any third parties.

That being said, we will review the matter and take appropriate action.

Kind Regards,

Lizzie
eBay VeRO Team




HUH?? Apparently they didn't understand the email that I sent to them.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on February 28, 2005, 07:34:09 pm
They probably did, but they can't legally comment about it to you, just in case you're just someone trying to screw someone else.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on February 28, 2005, 08:49:10 pm
I got the exact same response.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 08:59:32 pm
Cookie cutter response.

edit/
Here's a quick summary of trademark usage/protection:
http://www.tmexpress.com/TME_Q&A.html
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on February 28, 2005, 09:38:58 pm
I don't think going to war here is the answer.  Look, the MAME team is on it... I think we should let them do what they need to do.  If foley does what he says and assigns the trademark to the MAME team, all is well.  What his original intentions are are not particularly relevant.  It may be a factor for anyone planning a purchase, but let's be honest: even if he was the greatest guy in the world, we're not his target market, so saying "we'll never consider a purcase from you" means nothing.  And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Let's all just stand down for a moment, take a deep breath and see where Aaron and Haze run with it.  If they need our help, they know we got their back.

--Chris
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 09:57:52 pm
Who is going to trust this guy?  Other companies?  Please.  He committed a crime by filing the application.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the federal bureaucracy. [ripped from a site]

 :police: :police:And here is the crime in all of it's glory!! :police: :police:


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 10:01:21 pm
Notice the date... merry friggen X-mas.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on February 28, 2005, 10:29:01 pm
One note, I am not a lawyer but that statement says, "I affirm....no (other entity) has the right to use this mark in commerce..blah, blah."

By the letter of the law and IP rights, maybe the mamedevs and/or the artist who made the logo do not "have the right to use the mark in commerce" meaning, maybe because they did not file first, they lost thier right (by the law).

Just playing devil's advocate here.  Lawyers feel free to chime in????
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on February 28, 2005, 10:54:10 pm
You can establish rights to a mark based on "legitimate use" of the mark without ever registering.  It just complicates things if some doofus tries to register it.  That creates a burdon on the USPTO system (and judicail system).  That's why the applicant has to sign the above.  The applicant faces jail/fines/both if it is determined the application was filed in "bad faith".
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: danny_galaga on March 01, 2005, 12:58:29 am
Nobody would be able to protect a trademark on that. lol.

but then bill gates seems to think the word 'windows' is his alone. oh, nad probably the word 'word'!!

word,
danny.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on March 01, 2005, 01:21:42 am
And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Could be a bad thing--especially if no one uses it.  If iRoms goes down in flames, it would be unlikely anyone would try anything like it again (creating a legal source of roms.)

"So you say you need investors, Mr. StarROMs?  I don't know, remember what happened to that iRoms thing..."   :(
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Tommy Boy on March 01, 2005, 01:38:38 am
And if his iROMs service goes forward, that's a good thing for the community, even if we refuse to use it.

Could be a bad thing--especially if no one uses it.  If iRoms goes down in flames, it would be unlikely anyone would try anything like it again (creating a legal source of roms.)

"So you say you need investors, Mr. StarROMs?  I don't know, remember what happened to that iRoms thing..."   :(
I agree.  The other issue here is that this guy has apparently no capability to formulate and execute a coherent strategy.  I ask: Why would one pi$$ down the leg of the very community which is the target market for iRoms?  This guy's business acumen leaves something to be desired.

What do you want to bet that he uses this iRoms service as an excuse to chase down "illegal" roms and prices games so that they won't "compete" with his Ultracase packages?  In the end this will be a poorly executed fiasco that COULD HAVE BEEN a good idea but instead gets killed by a greedy goon that doesn't realize what he's got.

If he's smart he'll realize that iRoms could be a much bigger money maker than building cabs.  I'll bet he gets it backwards and kills iRoms by trying to use it to drive off competition to Ultracade.  Moron.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on March 01, 2005, 08:24:12 am
Fear:

iRoms service established

iRoms somehow encrypted to prevent them running on MAME

iRoms only run on Ultracade hardware/software

Ayone using MAME MUST be running illegal roms

Now that mamedevs are "in the open", pursue mame as illegal

Note Nintendo states that emulators are the evil of mankind in no uncertain terms

Note DF has already made statements to the effect that "since mame emus capcom, it is an illegal sf package"

Thank you , come again.

THe good news...all vectrex games are legal :-\
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 01, 2005, 08:51:41 am
Exactly... illegal "by default".

Digital Rights Management.

Your ROM download can only be used on 1 cabinet...

Boycott Ultracade & Arcade Legends
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: stevejt on March 01, 2005, 09:24:08 am
Forgive me if I'm wrong.  Everyone keeps saying MAME is going to be illegal.  I have seen it said that arcade boards can ONLY be legally backed up from an original board.  (You can't use someone elses ROM to fix a board even if you actually own.)  So, by that, MAME can NEVER be declared illegal software on it's own.  I can HAVE it, and I can back up my boards, with the intent of only repairing them if needed.  (I know we can't all burn all our own ROMs, but the possibility has been put there for us.
Does that sound reasonable?

Steve

(I own about 35 boards, I WOULD buy the hardware to back up if the ROMs weren't already available).
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 01, 2005, 09:33:09 am
BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 09:35:22 am
Ayone using MAME MUST be running illegal roms

Now that mamedevs are "in the open", pursue mame as illegal

Note DF has already made statements to the effect that "since mame emus capcom, it is an illegal sf package"

Can't happen.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 09:37:21 am
BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?


Not yet
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 01, 2005, 09:56:10 am
3) Hanaho Capcom CD, you can legally run those Capcom games which happens to run on a modified version of mame32.

You sure about that? When RetroFX GnG was active we had a couple discussions with Hanaho, and I'm pretty sure their emulator was written by Larry Bank. In fact, Larry's core emulator is what RetroFX GnG was built off of (with Larry's permission).
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on March 01, 2005, 10:49:59 am
Here is a question I haven't seen brought up:

How will this affect the arcade vendor industry as a whole? Many companies "rip" ROMs from their original PCBs in order to have a backup in case a ROM goes bad in the field. Of course, if the PCB gets sold (either in a machine or as a PCB) or gets discarded, the backups remain  and are often used for home repair or conversion. In the seven years I worked in the business, no one thought squat about it.

So what I am looking for is comments on the repercussions of this newfound application of the DMCA on businesses that have been practicing this for decades, AND the real-life applications of the law. Preservation of 25-year-old electronics often depend on this. Will this practice be forced to fall in to oblivion, or will it be "grandfathered" in?

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 11:04:37 am
3) Hanaho Capcom CD, you can legally run those Capcom games which happens to run on a modified version of mame32.

You sure about that? When RetroFX GnG was active we had a couple discussions with Hanaho, and I'm pretty sure their emulator was written by Larry Bank. In fact, Larry's core emulator is what RetroFX GnG was built off of (with Larry's permission).


Yes, I hav played the hanaho capcom cd.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 01, 2005, 11:09:33 am
BYOAC's longest thread ever? When will this thread lose momentum?


Not yet

Ah, but consider how long those threads took to get to the length they are.  Within 18 hours THIS thread had 8500 views. 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 11:20:13 am
Actually, the IE 6 cookie problem thread on the oldsite grew pretty quickly considering anyone who was using IE 6 had the problem :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on March 01, 2005, 11:31:56 am
The Hanaho Capcom runs on a version of MAME called TrueMAME that was approved by the MAME Team due to the liscensed status of the ROMS IIRC...

As for Mr. Ultracade (TM), he's a moron. He wants the arcade sized ipod. Apple created that market. UltraCON's just trying to rip off their plan/bizarre naming scheme. Nice. That's integrity.

It's funny too... because SO many guys on this board would buy ROMs from the ass. So many guys would rather be "legit" rather than using legally questionable ROM sets.

But why kill other cab makers? He thinks he's being smooth. It's like, he's trying to do a new TV show and doesn't want anyone to sell TV sets except him.  Seems like he'd be limiting the audience to me.

And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it.  :P

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 12:20:12 pm
And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: tetsujin on March 01, 2005, 12:27:32 pm
And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it.  :P

Not entirely true.  I've been trying to find a program which I know was deemed copyright infringement and it was an open source project call freecraft, a warcraft like RTS.  I have been searching all over the net for the source for that.  Blizzard has actively shut down sites that mention it.

Freecraft is still in Debian...  It's not too hard to find.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 12:40:39 pm
Rally, I tried looking through rpms and debs.  I must have missed it.  Anyway.  Point is still it is hard to get at it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 01, 2005, 12:42:40 pm
And remember, it's too late to kill MAME. The program exists. We all have it. We all have ROMS. Unless Mr. Ultracade (TM) has something AMAZING up his sleeve that can play all the games that we crave that MAME can't, he can jam it.  :P

Not entirely true.  I've been trying to find a program which I know was deemed copyright infringement and it was an open source project call freecraft, a warcraft like RTS.  I have been searching all over the net for the source for that.  Blizzard has actively shut down sites that mention it.
Maybe try contacting the guys at  FCGP (http://www.honors.montana.edu/~jjc/fcraft/index.html)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: colmore on March 01, 2005, 01:18:55 pm
Despite the fact that this guy is obviously a jerk and approaching the whole thing in a completely wrongheaded way, there is a legitimate point at the core of all of this nonsense.

The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.  Virtually every MAME capable cabinet on ebay loudly proclaims its ability to play THOUSANDS of arcade and console games.  Nowhere on the page will it give the caveat that to play thousands of games, you should own thousands of JAMMA boards and cartidges and have your own personal ROM extractor.  I doubt a cabinet has ever been purchased by someone who did not put at least several hundred illegal roms on it within a day of getting it.

Imagine if MAME existed but roms were somehow only available to legal owners.  Would people pay $2000 for a cabinet that could only play a dozen or so legal games?  Almost certainly not.  The Ultracade is being undercut by competitors who are tacitly relying on theft to complete the products that they are selling.  They don't have to say "Here's where to go get those 10,000 ROMS I mentioned" they know people will be able to find a .torrent or use other P2P.  In fact, even if the roms were available at say, $30 per, this would still cripple the market for MAME cabinets.

I for one will fully admit to the fact that I'm building my cabinet for the exclusive purpose of playing ROMS that I have no legal right to whatsoever.  I don't own a single original board, nor do I plan to.  If MAME weren't available I might someday (not now, I don't have the cash) consider buying an Ultracade or similar multi-game cabinet, but with the ROMs available, there's no way I'd ever buy one.

Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?  Almost certainly not.  However, his point that he is competing with stolen goods is legitimate.
Title: Re: MAME Trademarked by Ultracade
Post by: stevejt on March 01, 2005, 01:23:55 pm
Can't you legally sue him for a loss of bussiness?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: stevejt on March 01, 2005, 01:31:31 pm


Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on March 01, 2005, 01:34:48 pm


The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.  Virtually every MAME capable cabinet on ebay loudly proclaims its ability to play THOUSANDS of arcade and console games.  Nowhere on the page will it give the caveat that to play thousands of games, you should own thousands of JAMMA boards and cartidges and have your own personal ROM extractor.  I doubt a cabinet has ever been purchased by someone who did not put at least several hundred illegal roms on it within a day of getting it.

That's swell, but how does this apply to Philip's 642 DVD player (it can play Divx and Xvid encoded movies, the pirate's favorite... AND can be found at any local Target store) and CD players that also play MP3s directly off of a CD?

What if I sold an empty cabinet and claim that it is "perfect for a MAME project"? Am I somehow supporting piracy? Am I somehow responsible if the new owner makes a MAME cabinet out of the materials I supplied, even if I mounted a motherboard and HDD on the side?

I can understand your argument; it is the same one that gun control advocates use when they sue gun manufacturers. I just think that it is too abstract of a thought process to hold up any serious logical scrutiny. (a material is supplied to a person who uses it illegally or maliciously, therefore the supplier is responsible for the action of another).

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 01:46:21 pm
The cabs that are sold on ebay and elsewhere are most definitely advertising on the ability to play pirated ROMS.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on March 01, 2005, 01:47:51 pm
Quote
Now does this mean that he's entitled to take the legal steps he's taking?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 01, 2005, 01:52:38 pm
Colmore, have you ever burned a cd?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 01, 2005, 02:19:10 pm
Colmore, have you ever burned a cd?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Shape D. on March 01, 2005, 02:22:51 pm
So D.F.'s parents suck?  : ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: fredster on March 01, 2005, 05:37:54 pm
this is like the biggest thread ever.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Shape D. on March 01, 2005, 05:55:22 pm
this is like the biggest thread ever.


Nope, As of this post. Tied for second.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on March 01, 2005, 06:19:19 pm
Shape, I think SirP's point was - yes, Foley's parents suck, and we should all download a copy of Korn's remake, burn it to CD, and mail it to him and let nature take its course

 ;D


I offer up the following quote, which you can clearly paraphrase to fit the above solution:

"Dishes are DONE, maaan!"
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 02, 2005, 03:54:16 am
I have a prediction. A lot of people in the arcade world are also in the emulation world as well. I predict that someone will take a hard drive image out of an ultracade, crack the security on it, and then release the image to the world.

If that someone is smart they would get it circulating in Taiwan, China, and Japan first, by the time it hits the ENGLISH warez/roms scene it will be too late, the bootleg Ultracade kits will already be coming out of the factory.

I mean if he wants to fight piracy and illegal competion, then let him do it. Operators have never had a problem buying bootleg boards. They didn't have a problem with it in 1980, and the last operator I did a deal with runs more bootleg boards than real ones.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Dexter on March 02, 2005, 05:39:32 am
Don't the ultracade cocktails have a dual screen mirror mode? whereby fighting games can be played at either end instead of you needing controls at the front of the cab? Would be a terrible shame if an image of THAT software made it out onto the internet  :)

By the way guys, theres no official version of mame that can do the same thing, is there?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 02, 2005, 05:41:46 am
Don't the ultracade cocktails have a dual screen mirror mode? whereby fighting games can be played at either end instead of you needing controls at the front of the cab? Would be a terrible shame if an image of THAT software made it out onto the internet  :)

By the way guys, theres no official version of mame that can do the same thing, is there?

I don't THINK there are any versions of Mame that can do that, but why not ask one of the devlopers around here, it sounds like it would be incredibly simple, just a custom video mode.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 02, 2005, 05:45:17 am
ANd actually, THAT idea deserves a full thread. A double image cocktail mode for playing non cocktail horizontal games on vertical cocktails is something that A LOT of people would probably really enjoy.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Dexter on March 02, 2005, 08:02:56 am
Yep, if I had it for the last cocktail I built I would have devoted the front panel to a spinner, trackball and analog stick, or....not having a control panel at the front at all, you could change the dimensions of the cabinet to incorporate a bigger monitor without changing the overall space it takes up.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on March 02, 2005, 08:34:26 am
Who is going to trust this guy?  Other companies?  Please.  He committed a crime by filing the application.

Title 18, United States Code, Section 1001 makes it a crime to: 1) knowingly and willfully; 2) make any materially false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or representation; 3) in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative or judicial branch of the United States. Your lie does not even have to be made directly to an employee of the national government as long as it is "within the jurisdiction" of the federal bureaucracy. [ripped from a site]

 :police: :police:And here is the crime in all of it's glory!! :police: :police:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32730.0;id=10214;image)


Do you know whats funny?

If he won you could contest it cause he didn't fill out the form properly

he didn't state 04 just 4 which isn't standard which means it could be thrown out  :P

Just a thought  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 02, 2005, 08:35:17 am
Boycott Arcade Legends and Ultracade!
[/b]

Application still "not assigned" to an examiner...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 02, 2005, 08:57:00 am
Boycott Arcade Legends and Ultracade!
[/b]

Application still "not assigned" to an examiner...
I don't think any examiner wants to ... ;)
I would come to think about it
declined.....
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on March 02, 2005, 09:04:26 am
ANd actually, THAT idea deserves a full thread. A double image cocktail mode for playing non cocktail horizontal games on vertical cocktails is something that A LOT of people would probably really enjoy.

I would really like to see a "dumb terminal" bartop project.  I mentioned this in the Projects section under the NeoGeo bartop.  The idea being that you create a second bartop that is a dumb terminal with a monitor that mirrors the fist bartop's image.  The controls would be wired to the first and simply be player two.  Then you could have real head-to-head action on fighter bartop cabinets.  "Hey!  You Sunk My MegaMan!"
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 02, 2005, 01:21:39 pm
I predict that someone will take a hard drive image out of an ultracade, crack the security on it, and then release the image to the world.
I predict that someone will take a hard drive image out of an ultracade, crack the security on it, and then find out that it's really M.A.M.E.  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 02, 2005, 03:54:12 pm
I was thinking about DF iRoms program.  And I'm wondering...  I think half of the companies that made games that are in MAME are long gone.  So who would profit from that sale of that rom?  DF?  Or would that game never be available on iROMS because there was no legal enity that one could sign an publishing agreement with? 

If it wasn't for MAME, most of these games would have been forgotten about a long time ago.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on March 02, 2005, 04:00:17 pm
I was thinking about DF iRoms program.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 02, 2005, 04:01:04 pm
I was thinking about DF iRoms program.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 02, 2005, 04:04:37 pm
Considering the amount of games and bootlegs in MAME.  It'll take a long time too figure out who currently owns what.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 02, 2005, 04:14:49 pm
But you gotta start somewhere.  And I wouldn't even worry about the bootlegs.  The parents will get you most of what people will want.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 02, 2005, 04:18:01 pm
So the question is.. why would publishers sell to DF when they can release a "10-in-1" joystick/rom combo and sell thousands of them and cut out the middle man?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 02, 2005, 04:19:52 pm
Because that's a different market.  how many BYOACers are going to hook up each of those 10-in-1s to their arcade cabinet?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 02, 2005, 05:21:50 pm
(http://img152.exs.cx/img152/7534/ucon2ql.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Thenasty on March 02, 2005, 05:35:14 pm
a game running on it...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: scatter on March 02, 2005, 06:20:57 pm
About the Ultracade HD Image. Just FYI. The one I dissected  few monthas ago used a propriery OS called JoshuaOS. An image of the drive was easy enough but  the kernel was over my head to figure out. The whole thing (HD) was locked to the hardware via key generated based on your hardware and that tied to your serial and your unlock code. Pretty standard security except for the OS.

b
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 02, 2005, 07:10:10 pm
lol.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 02, 2005, 07:18:42 pm
That link says "System99" is the same as Ultracade.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Shape D. on March 02, 2005, 07:27:47 pm
Lets see what we can do about pulling the plug...
If you were a woman I'd kiss you.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: emdkay on March 02, 2005, 08:35:22 pm
and you all thought this thread was moot  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: btoddkelley on March 02, 2005, 08:37:37 pm
Did you guys read about that OS? I wonder what that would be like on a mame cab? 1sec boot time sounds NICE!
Todd
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 02, 2005, 10:56:35 pm
Did you guys read about that OS? I wonder what that would be like on a mame cab? 1sec boot time sounds NICE!
Todd
I'm going to try and install this, this weekend...

JoshuaOS
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 02, 2005, 11:09:10 pm
Hey!!

Here is a FE that runs like Ultracades FE!!!

http://www.mameworld.net/ultrastyle/
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 02, 2005, 11:37:40 pm
wow with 2000+ posts you just found out about that FE.   :D

Thats funny.
I like it but never got it up and running.  I should try again.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 03, 2005, 12:21:18 am
wow with 2000+ posts you just found out about that FE.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Havok on March 03, 2005, 01:02:52 am
Here's a good read:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

ROMs are legal - if you own the original equipment. I point you to this paragraph:

"(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

There are grey areas, to be sure, however it can certainly be argued that they are obsolete (sigh!)

And my two cents about iROMS - not me, not now, not ever.

Star ROMs - You bet!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 03, 2005, 02:26:08 am
And also note, the releases are NOT the same programs. They are always different. The Ms. Pac-Mans and Galaga's released in 2001 contain new code and are not the same programs.

If you can't buy it brand new from the distributor or obtain it easily through normal distribution chains then it is obsolete. Note the idea of normal distribution chains? That doesn't mean buying that (possibly bootleg, could be broken, probably will break next week) PCB from gameZDude69 (Feedback 82 percent) on ebay.

The lovely lovely part of that part of the law is that fact that it does not define the hardware. I can no longer render "Galaga" because my cabinet has fallen apart, molded, and rusted away to the point where the only thing left is the marquee rail, but I can still render the game thanks to exception number 3.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 03, 2005, 08:19:41 am
Hmm, I just perused Ultracades offerings in the recent Happ catalog.

They are completely missing the boat.

Their universal conversion kit is $1495.

If they could get a non-commercial (home use, all games locked to free play) Universal conversion kit out there for $995 then they would sell, sell, sell. People pay $695 now for the crappy 39 in 1.

Most of the builder's that are competing with them would start using their products instead of Mame.

At $1500 the amateur builders can't turn a profit using their kits. I could get about $2000 for a nice clean 25" Ultracade equipped cabinet, and probably $1800 for a 19" one. But with their current kit prices I couldn't turn a profit. But if they had a non-commercial kit (which would be cheaper for them for sure, their arcade legends ones are non-commercial and are cheaper) for $1000 I could toss business their way and so could a lot of the other part time builders.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Edgedamage on March 03, 2005, 08:51:04 am
About the Ultracade HD Image. Just FYI. The one I dissected
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 03, 2005, 09:06:19 am
... rusted away to the point where the only thing left is the marquee rail, but I can still render the game thanks to exception number 3.
LOL.  That's what I've been saying too.  Nobody has shown that the ROM's are illegal.  If they are, how much of the original do you need in order to play your "backup"?  The courts have never dealt with it.

Anyhow...
With all this interest in JoshuaOS, make sure you discuss with him the Foley situation.  Ask him to pull his license.

Boycott Ultracade & Arcade Legends & Chicago Gaming & System99 & HyperWare & Nextune!  This list is getting long.  Why does Foley have to keep changing his business names?  Taxes?  There's something with this...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 09:23:54 am
About the Ultracade HD Image. Just FYI. The one I dissected
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: btoddkelley on March 03, 2005, 09:57:36 am
GG I would really like to hear about your experience using Joshua, I would love to dump M$ on the cab, especially if I could still transfer files over my wireless network.

Thanks
Todd
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 10:29:19 am
Suppose the following:

1) - Ultracade is actually based on M.A.M.E. and includes M.A.M.E. code
2) - In order to hide this fact, David R. Foley builds some serious copy protection into his systems and begins selling his arcade machines.
3) - Ultracade begins to grow and actually make a nice profit
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines and the resulting possibility of his being sued by the original M.A.M.E. creators for his unauthorized use of M.A.M.E. code.
5) - David R. Foley sees an opportunity for leverage against the M.A.M.E. creators in that the M.A.M.E. name and logo have never been trademarked and quickly files for the M.A.M.E. trademark himself.
6) - David R. Foley agrees to return ownership of the M.A.M.E. name and logo to the original M.A.M.E. creators in exchange for the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoids the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 03, 2005, 11:18:32 am
Suppose the following:
...

Sounds plausible.

By the way, I like your whole board persona there. Name, avatar, motto..  ;D 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 03, 2005, 12:04:11 pm
Given the fact that the Capcom emulator that is included on their CD's is based on MAME.  And that fact that DF is connected with Capcom as his Ultracade emulates Capcom games.  It's highly possible that DF took the exisiting Capcom interface (MAME) and tweaked it to suite his needs.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 03, 2005, 01:27:22 pm
Reading through this thread it occurred to me what poetic justice it would be if the man that was trying to steal Mame IP was put out of business by thieves that stole and distributed his software.

One can only Dream.   :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 01:35:12 pm
5) - David R. Foley sees an opportunity for leverage against the M.A.M.E. creators in that the M.A.M.E. name and logo have never been trademarked and quickly files for the M.A.M.E. trademark himself.
6) - David R. Foley agrees to return ownership of the M.A.M.E. name and logo to the original M.A.M.E. creators in exchange for the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoids the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators

Ok, so we are at point 5.  5 has to fail so 6 doesn't take place :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 01:40:58 pm
Given the fact that the Capcom emulator that is included on their CD's is based on MAME.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 03, 2005, 02:46:39 pm
Given the fact that the Capcom emulator that is included on their CD's is based on MAME.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 03, 2005, 02:55:28 pm
Quote
This place/guy sounds like a reasonable fellow...
Lets see what we can do about pulling the plug..

Or why don't we just see what it'd cost to get our own license of JoshuaOS? Don't know what his minimum volume requirement would be, but maybe purchasing the license would help reverse engineer Ultracade?

We could pool the money through donations. I'd throw some money toward this, for sure. Or maybe this isn't even a sensible suggestion?!?  :)  I'm not really a development guy...


From the site:
JoshuaOS
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 02:55:41 pm
Suppose the following:

1) - Ultracade is actually based on M.A.M.E. and includes M.A.M.E. code
2) - In order to hide this fact, David R. Foley builds some serious copy protection into his systems and begins selling his arcade machines.
3) - Ultracade begins to grow and actually make a nice profit
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines and the resulting possibility of his being sued by the original M.A.M.E. creators for his unauthorized use of M.A.M.E. code.
5) - David R. Foley sees an opportunity for leverage against the M.A.M.E. creators in that the M.A.M.E. name and logo have never been trademarked and quickly files for the M.A.M.E. trademark himself.
6) - David R. Foley agrees to return ownership of the M.A.M.E. name and logo to the original M.A.M.E. creators in exchange for the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoids the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators

To make myself a little more clear on my line of thought..
Perhaps this entire controversy that David R. Foley is creating over the M.A.M.E. cabs being sold is only a smokescreen to cover his real intentions of aquiring the rights to use M.A.M.E. code in all of his arcade machines and thus avoid the possibility of ever being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Fat_Trucker on March 03, 2005, 03:04:36 pm
Why would he have overtly started trying to earn royalties from it if he only wanted to protect himself from litigation?.

I think his drive to attack MAME was probably related to him being ordered to cease use of Namco? roms last year. From his point of view he's running a legitimate business and has people pulling licences and preventing him from using software while he can see the MAME community or more particularly some 3rd party vendors using them or trading on the ability to use them with impugnity.

I think it was plain frustration and the desire for some kind of abstract payback that motivated the attack on the TM.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 03, 2005, 03:11:03 pm
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines (http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf), and there was something that caught my eye:

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.


mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 03, 2005, 03:17:20 pm
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines, and there was something that caught my eye: http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf (PDF)

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

mrC

Ok, I think it's time to call in a hacker/programmer.   As that doesn't seem like a standard clause...

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on March 03, 2005, 03:36:50 pm
Ok, I think it's time to call in a hacker/programmer.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 03:44:58 pm
Why would he have overtly started trying to earn royalties from it if he only wanted to protect himself from litigation?.
Because if he has been using M.A.M.E. code all along he can't just come out and say his real intentions or else he would be sued.
The attack on the M.A.M.E. cab builders would be a perfect cover-up
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 03:51:35 pm
Given the fact that the Capcom emulator that is included on their CD's is based on MAME.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Thenasty on March 03, 2005, 04:34:55 pm
I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 04:36:24 pm
I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

Actually, that would be bad.  We'd be no better than DF himself.

Anyway, why would you want it after this anyway ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on March 03, 2005, 04:43:34 pm
I lke where this is going. Crack that ULTRATHIEF software/os and see if it contains MAME code and also DISTRIBUTE it in ABEM like crazy and we use his F.E and put any roms/game we want or find out the UNLOCK codes for the extra games thats locked and post that also.

Actually, that would be bad.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Thenasty on March 03, 2005, 04:46:47 pm
ok, I guess we don't need to sink to D.F level.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 06:24:07 pm
It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 03, 2005, 06:37:03 pm
Oh I don't know...
how can our conversations hurt the case with Mame.
we are just user's of Mame and on a differant web sight.
Nothing really involved with the TM and Mame case. Heck its not even in Court or anything.
I have been a firm believer of eye for eye, He might have went after Mame which in turn went after my hobbie
I for one would love to find some way to bust this guy.
we have not had a gag order or anything.
as far as the agreement to DF. systems hard drive, we could track down a used one and take it apart , We never agreed to it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 03, 2005, 06:41:25 pm
It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code
I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Shape D. on March 03, 2005, 06:49:53 pm
It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code
I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?
It can be done. But your not supposed to. And I would reccomend not doing it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 07:07:45 pm
It would be interesting to know if David R. Foley has approached Aaron or Haze about getting the rights to use M.A.M.E. code
I am a bit confussed. How can anyone use Mame in a commercial  product?
It is stated that can not be done?
It can be done. But your not supposed to. And I would reccomend not doing it.
Yes, but it may be too late for David R. Foley
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 03, 2005, 07:10:34 pm
seems like some can and some can not  :(
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 03, 2005, 07:12:31 pm
I believe in two eyes for one...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 03, 2005, 07:27:38 pm
As much as I'd like to see Foley out of business (I joked earlier about how cool it would be if his system was cracked and distributed,) there are US and possibly other laws about circumventing copy protection.   I wouldn't suggest doing it.  :police:
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 03, 2005, 07:38:01 pm
4) - David R. Foley becomes even more concerned over the possibility of M.A.M.E. code being discovered in his arcade machines...

You may be on to something. Sounds compelling. I just found a PDF Manual for Ultracade machines (http://www.happcontrols.com/images/pdf/ultracade_manual.pdf), and there was something that caught my eye:

"By accepting and operating an ULTRACADE system, the owner/operator of each ULTRACADE system agrees to abide by all copyrights and trademarks and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system in anyway."

Is this clause standard? Or *is* he hiding something? Given your assumption above, it does sound fishy.


mrC
Yes, I believe that it is very possible that David R. Foley has been hiding behind that user agreement and has gambled that it would protect him from anyone discovering M.A.M.E. code in his machines OS.
Now with the leverage of the M.A.M.E. trademark he would hope to get official rights to the M.A.M.E. code and avoid the possibility of being sued by the M.A.M.E. creators.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 03, 2005, 10:07:58 pm
<<and not to attempt to decompile or modify the operating system>>

You don;t need to decompile the OS to figure out what's on the drive.  You just need to be able to read the file system.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 03, 2005, 11:19:18 pm
Nothing wrong with innocent investigations.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Patent Doc on March 04, 2005, 01:13:09 am
Quote
Here's a good read:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

ROMs are legal - if you own the original equipment. I point you to this paragraph:

"(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

There are grey areas, to be sure, however it can certainly be argued that they are obsolete (sigh!)

And my two cents about iROMS - not me, not now, not ever.

Star ROMs - You bet!   

No offense Havok, but did you actually read what this was in reference to?  People keep on quoting this as some admission by the US copyright office that things like MAME roms would be leagal since the games they were originally sold on are "obsolete."  However, this provision provides an exception to anit circumvention legislation so individuals who purchased the software and thus have a lisence to use, can circumvent whatever they need in order to continue to use the software. For example, the program had to be run on one of those old 12" hard disks shaped like a donut from the 1970s.  Well, the US copyright Office has determined that it is not right to make an individual purchase the program again because a)the company making the software no longer supports that format or b)the drives no longer are being manufactured and the buyers drive broke.  The buyer of the software can now make or have made a replacement to use on current equipment.  Note that to do this, you must still own a legal copy of the software (roms, or whatever).  The only thing this possibly provides support for is those people who purchased a PCB and want to use it using current technology.  However, even this last scenario is in a grey area since the courts haven't ruled on it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on March 04, 2005, 03:46:46 am
Well, since Arcade Legends is an arcade game, and MAME wants to document (emulate) all arcade hardware, and there is speculation that Ultracade may use MAME code...

Can MAME emulate itself?

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 04, 2005, 09:12:27 am
Quote
Here's a good read:

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

ROMs are legal - if you own the original equipment. I point you to this paragraph:

"(3) Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and which require the original media or hardware as a condition of access. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace."

There are grey areas, to be sure, however it can certainly be argued that they are obsolete (sigh!)

And my two cents about iROMS - not me, not now, not ever.

Star ROMs - You bet!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 04, 2005, 09:52:46 am
Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 04, 2005, 10:23:57 am
Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.
I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

as far as the Roms for Mame or any of the old consoles that is no longer put out there. You can read what you want into the law. Its to unclear because it has not been proven in court as of yet

Atari corp had no problems with people opening the 800S and probing them. They even published books on how to's and even sent reps to the big user groups and gave demos and answered questions. I know because I was there. we would program many 2600 style games into the old 800's with basic and turbo basic

I personally think since I own most every old system out there and houndreds of the carts,cards,floppies and even hard drives (Atari black box) I can down load the Roms and play them on modern equipment. I am sick of buying a system and 2 years later the big companies want me to toss out all my games and buy there new system for big bucks and buy there games at even more big bucks.

This is covered in the fair use law.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 04, 2005, 10:33:49 am
Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.
I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.  Sounds weak at best. 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 04, 2005, 10:38:03 am
Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.
I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 04, 2005, 10:51:08 am
Cracking Ultracade would be like cracking anyother new game out there.
I don't think we can crack it and toss it out on the internet for down load but, I do think we could buy a used one and open it up and post our findings.
Why used. Because I would not have agreed to the licences agreement.
I did not get it from the company so I am not bind-ed by that agreement

I'd get yourself a really good lawyer before banking on that theory.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Thenasty on March 04, 2005, 10:53:36 am
I also think that Ultracade, they are not popular to todays youth. I saw one in Sportworld and a month later, its taken out.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: scatter on March 04, 2005, 11:13:24 am
Just to answer s couple of q's I've seen since my last post. First, I'm an arcade operator (it's why I would even have an ultracade) The long and short of it is none of the arcade ops like the ultracade *at all* there is almost no feature that any one of us likes. From game selection to the herky jerky action of menu selection. So there's a bit of background.

As to JOS. I wrote the guy a while back to request a copy of the system and he said it was not available for any amount. *shrug* So whatever. As I said the info on the HD was easily readable by putting in a PC and viewing on a byte level with a hex editor. I no longer have the system but it would seem that we forgot two cd's when we shipped it out (seriously we just forgot about them) and they still reside in my desk here. They both have crappy inkjet labels that say ultracade system installation (one is v3.12 and one is v3.23) but it would seem that the HD needs to be initialized because it goes nowhere when you boot the CD. It just says "JoshuaOS Loading"

I've long thought there must be MAME code in it but a cursory inspection of the files doesn't show any tale-tale signs. Also it is a fact that UC used to have all the NAMCO games in them on a don't ask don't tell policy until DF got a little note from NAMCO sometime last summer ('04) which he sent out to the Ops.

Just a case of a very very black pot calling all the kettles black to me.

b

P.S. I love the fact that the spell checker suggests Utlrasuede for Ultracade...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 04, 2005, 11:26:40 am
I no longer have the system but it would seem that we forgot two cd's when we shipped it out (seriously we just forgot about them) and they still reside in my desk here.

What are the legalities of "examining" the OS for the inclusion of M.A.M.E. code? Reverse engineering the OS in order to distribute and/or alter it is obviously not allowed. But, couldn't an individual, someone on the M.A.M.E. development team, peek at the code (legally) in order to see if they spot any of their own code? Isn't there enough reason for suspicion?

I know that there was a similar situation with CherryOS (http://www.mxsinc.com/pages.php?cid=MDEwMDA4) (Mac emu software), when they were accused (http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,65368,00.html) of building on top of the free open-sourced, PearPC mac emu.

It might be an issue of "just cause" since, to quote the linked article, "Sebastian Ballas, PearPC's lead developer, said a screenshot of CherryOS shows a variable named "SPIRO MULTIMAX 3000," a nonsensical term Ballas claims to have invented for use in PearPC."

I have NO SYMPATHY whatsoever for mr. Foley, as the sad bastard has brought this on himself. We *need* to figure out how to make absolutely sure he isn't using M.A.M.E code. Because how horribly ironic would it be, were he to continue destroying the community using the very software that was used to create it in the first place.

mr.C
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Patent Doc on March 04, 2005, 11:31:39 am
Quote
The way I read it you are both not quite right.

The title of the page answers what it is about
"Rulemaking on Exemptions from Prohibition on Circumvention of Technological Measures that Control Access to Copyrighted Works"

This means breaking the security on obsolete technology is legal.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on March 04, 2005, 11:48:49 am
As to JOS. I wrote the guy a while back to request a copy of the system and he said it was not available for any amount. *shrug* So whatever.

That's just wierd, considering the website offers it up.   That is, unless JoshuaOS is basically ONLY used by Ultracade.  The JOS people are only 66 miles from Unltracade central, so who knows the real story.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 04, 2005, 11:50:07 am
I've long thought there must be MAME code in it but a cursory inspection of the files doesn't show any tale-tale signs. Also it is a fact that UC used to have all the NAMCO games in them on a don't ask don't tell policy until DF got a little note from NAMCO sometime last summer ('04) which he sent out to the Ops.

Just a case of a very very black pot calling all the kettles black to me.

Scatter,
Hope to see you post some more. It's good to have a perspective of a commercial game operator.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 04, 2005, 12:20:55 pm
are you saying I can not buy a hard drive off ebay and use software to find out what was on that drive. why not? I bought it off a individual not a companies.
especially if the drive was broken and I went through it to fix it.
Quote

I am not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am pretty sure the US DCMA prohibits bypassing mechanisms such as encryption and keys intended to protect software, music, etc.

I don't think it takes into account how you acquired the content to begin with.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 04, 2005, 12:25:15 pm

P.S. I love the fact that the spell checker suggests Ultrasuede for Ultracade...
..and by the way.. Matthew Sweet ROCKS!!!  ;D
ULTRASUEDE (http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/window/media/player/0,,194973-1888813-WMLO,00.html)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 04, 2005, 12:29:31 pm
I never knew Matthew Sweet released ULTRASUEDE.   Hmm....
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 04, 2005, 01:18:33 pm
This feels like a mini SCO vs IBM thing :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 04, 2005, 01:43:36 pm
I agree with RayB.  It's nice to see an operator around here. (that sounds matrixy)

I would think that the update cd's would have to have something relating to MAME (assuming it is) on them.

Interesting to say the least.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 04, 2005, 02:07:30 pm
are you saying I can not buy a hard drive off ebay and use software to find out what was on that drive. why not? I bought it off a individual not a companies.
especially if the drive was broken and I went through it to fix it.
Quote

I am not claiming to be an expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I am pretty sure the US DCMA prohibits bypassing mechanisms such as encryption and keys intended to protect software, music, etc.

I don't think it takes into account how you acquired the content to begin with.
true but DVDs are encrypted so are Cd's but we are allowed to back it up. I am not saying sell the info or even give out the Roms. But I really think if I bought his system I have every right to check into its workings , if I so want to. I can even tell people what I found . Just not pass out the product so the other persons
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on March 04, 2005, 04:02:58 pm
Screw what's prohibited.

I wanna see what's in there!!

Mr. Ultracade started this fire. I'd love to see him burn in it.

I'm happy/sad at the same time that no one on these boards owns an Ultracade unit.  :-\
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 04, 2005, 05:41:48 pm
If this topic is all about M.A.M.E. why has it been hidden down in the "Everything Else" section?  ???

MOVED: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,33020.0.html)
This topic has been moved to Everything Else.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=32730.0
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 04, 2005, 05:46:03 pm
Hidden?  This forum gets more views because of generally off-topic banter.  And this isn't a Mame board, this is a board for Building Your Own Arcade Controls.  Technically, it's always been in the wrong forum.  The important work of getting the word out is done now, so the thread has been moved.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SoundDoc on March 04, 2005, 05:47:03 pm
Did You Know:
HyperWare (owned by Foley), seems to supply computers to Ultracade (owned by Foley) and Arcade Legends (owned by Foley).
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: 1UP on March 04, 2005, 05:59:15 pm
I called up a guy who makes an interface board I want to use in my cabinets, and somehow the topic got around to Ultracade.  I told him what was going on with the TM issue, and he said "David Foley, right?  That guy's a pain."  Apparently, Foley makes a habit of stealing other people's ideas.  He stole the design of this interface board, and used it in Ultracade.  A patented design.  I think with a little digging, his entire company could be ripped to shreds if everyone who he stole from would sue.

I'm just waiting to see a rotating version of Ultracade pop up...

 :P :P :P
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 04, 2005, 06:59:42 pm
So THAT's why his businesses keep changing names.  He just rips people off and changes the sign in the window so he can do it all over again.

Boycott Arcade Legends, Ultracade, Chicago Gaming, HyperWare, NexTune... did I miss any?  Boycott David R. Foley!

You guys with sites shouls remove hyperlinks to ultracade.  I have to type it like 300 times to equal one link for the search engine ranking.  Point to copies of what he's said instead of what's on his site (since those "letters" change daily anyhow).

I really really urge everyone to press charges/sue if you can.  If you don't know, talk to the police or do a free consultation with a lawyer.  Let's make this the last time Foley screws people over.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Megaweapon on March 04, 2005, 08:12:05 pm
I'm going to abide by the MAME team's wishes and keep things on the DL for now, but if their negotiations don't go well...

Let's just say this discussion won't be relegated to the domain of forum posts.   :-X

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on March 04, 2005, 08:52:35 pm
So THAT's why his businesses keep changing names.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 04, 2005, 09:44:52 pm
Quantum 3D?

Holy $#!7!

They're the people that trademarked the phrase "MAMEframe"!  >:(

http://www.quantum3d.com/company/trademarks.htm

(RetroBlast! would have possibly been known as "MAMEframe.com", were it not for Quantum3D trademarking the phrase first...in fact, they even had the mameframe.com domain for a while, but now it looks like they've let it go.)

Quantum3D is in the same zip as Foley, are listed as the ones registering Ultracade, but their own Whois info lists a different street address and contact (Ed Lopez)

This is looking more and more questionable the more people dig...

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on March 04, 2005, 09:52:20 pm
I did some more lookups and one of Quantum3D's street addresses (I can't remember which) also shows up as belonging to Apptitude, Inc. (apptitude.com)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 04, 2005, 10:37:34 pm
LOL!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 04, 2005, 11:04:53 pm
Go HERE  (http://www.quantum3d.com/IISSearch.asp) and search for Ultracade or Foley
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 04, 2005, 11:29:48 pm
Interesting Points:

http://www.quantum3d.com/press/pdf/archive/pr_9-21-00.pdf
Mentioned on The Howard Stern Radio Show
"
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 04, 2005, 11:38:49 pm
There's some good clarifcation on the history of Ultracade here:

http://www.retrogames.com/cgi-bin/wwwthreads/showpost.pl?Board=retrogen&Number=81492

To quote:

"Brief history of Ultracade: 3dfx's spinoff Quantum3D developed and sold it for a while, then dumped it off to HyperWare, Inc., which was an embedded-PC company run by David Foley. HyperWare marketed it for a while (using their own PCs as the hardware platform) and then went Chapter 11. Foley eventually decided to take another swing and formed UltraCade, Inc., which is the current company marketing/maintaining UC). Quantum3D is still in business, BTW, but they've moved *way* upmarket."

I remember Quantum3D as being the company that developed the Obsidian, a quad-3dfx chip graphics card (I think that's right - been a while).

Anyway, Ultracade Inc. is the current company run by David Foley, and it doesn't look like there's any current connection to Quantum3D (which is still alive and kicking).

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 05, 2005, 12:00:45 am
Judging by his resume, Foley was working at Quantum 3D when that sale took place.  Looks like he took it and ran with it.  Might have been to cover his tracks.  I still don't understand why they would only apply for a patent for part of the software and not the whole package.  There's something hiding in that there ultracade. :police:
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 12:03:49 am
Here's the web archive from back in November '02 when they went belly up
http://web.archive.org/web/20021128033703/http://ultracade.com/
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on March 05, 2005, 12:14:36 am
Anyway, Ultracade Inc. is the current company run by David Foley, and it doesn't look like there's any current connection to Quantum3D (which is still alive and kicking).

Except they're still listed as the registrant of ultracade.com
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 12:15:24 am
you can take a look at the history of hyperware through the internet archive
HERE (http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.hyperware.com/)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 12:55:26 am
I'm not sure if this article was mentioned already but here's one that shows how Happ Controls was involved in getting Ultracade back on it's feet:
http://www.casbox.com/Stinger/Sting130.html
Quote
THE STINGER REPORT #130




Ultracade Helped Back Into Ring

Word on the Street
As Hyperware ended their investment in the amusement sector, and dropped their 2,500 unit selling Ultracard retro kit and cabinet PC endeavors, industry philanthropist, Happ Controls, building on their Midway acquisition has stepped up to become the company's new controller.

The agreement will see the sales and manufacture of the Ultracade and any Graphite arcade PC's handled exclusively through Happ Controls. The Ultracade has proven more of a proposition to operators in its kit variant, though it is expected that a few upright cabinets will be manufactured. The remnants of the technical team retained by bankrupted Hyperware parent Quantum3D have privately agreed to support the Ultracade through a shell company called Ultracade Technologies. There are a number of pet projects that they would like to investigate along with additional game packs.

This will be the second indirect Midway acquisition that Happ will have acquired as they already run a number of kit versions of Midway "old Gold" (Invasion and Area 51), while the Ultracade runs a number of Midway titles. The return to the amusement sector, no matter how much supported by Happ, there is one issue that has followed the operation that looks set to be a constant issue in their new guise.

For those that have not followed the Stingers coverage of the Hyperware operation it is best to say that the company has attempted to present an amusement face to a sector of the hobby / consumer games market that has affected the arcade market. The Retro revival (playing of classic arcade games on home systems) has exploded on the playing scene since the late 90
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 01:19:04 am
Kevin posted this update a couple days ago but somehow I missed it:
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#

Quote
The Waiting Game

3/2/05: Another follow up. Posting the following is still illegal:

(http://www.retroblast.com/graphics/mamelogo_big.gif)

As are posting the following phrases:

MAME

Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator

Where Things Stand


As far as I know, the Trademark Application on the MAME phrase and logo made by David Foley of Ultracade has still not been withdrawn, despite his assurances that it would be.

Aaron Giles (part of the MAME development team) is taking steps to get the trademark assigned to Nicola (the founding father of MAME), and this is a good thing (still not trademarked by Martha Stewart).

Mr. Foley wanted assurances that the MAME logo would not be used commercially, and as far as he is concerned this whole fiasco is a great success. He got what he wanted, or so he claims.

I've got to admit I'm curious as to the level of "cooperation" given him by the MAME development team, since they really owed him nothing (but might have had to prove that through the use of a lawsuit, always an expensive proposition).


The Future of MAME
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 05, 2005, 07:14:47 am
sounds like we are in need of some lawyers and get to see a judge?
Pas me the hat. I will chip in. Lets bleed Foley dry. We are many he is one.
Dave Foley must worship Bill Gates , he sure acts like him.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 09:23:43 am
...and remember

Quote
"We are concerned about the commercial marketplace, and not the readers of the many MAME user groups and forums." - David R. Foley
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4992
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 05, 2005, 10:12:19 am
"If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."- David R. Foley
Scary.  The dude has a complex.  Hasn't anyone sued him or pressed charges? 

"we have accomplished what we set out to do."- David R. Foley
Yeah, they've illegally closed down all competition.

Boycott Ultracade & Arcade Legends!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 05, 2005, 10:19:08 am
  Here are the floorplans (http://www.missionwest.com/Available_Properties/6810_Santa_Teresa.pdf) to the bldg.  And from this arial photo (http://terraserver.microsoft.com/addressimage.aspx?T=1&S=10&Alon=-121.781822&Alat=37.229869&W=1&opt=0&qs=6810+Santa+Teresa+Blvd%7cSan+Jose%7cCA&addr=6810+Santa+Teresa+Blvd%2c+San+Jose%2c+CA+95119&Lon=-121.78233297333334&Lat=37.2309792), it looks like it's only a 1-story bldg. 


ROFL! This moron Foley really picked the *wrong* community to f*ck with! Freakin' floorplans & aerial photos! hahaha...


Quote
I'm going to abide by the MAME team's wishes and keep things on the DL for now, but if their negotiations don't go well...

Let's just say this discussion won't be relegated to the domain of forum posts.

Screw Foley. He's not giving any ground. His goal was to steal the MAME trademark then force it on Nicola WITH RESTRICTIONS. It looks like he'll accomplish that goal. We need to act now. He has already made it apparent (from Kevin's article) that he wants to destroy the M.A.M.E. community and funnel all the profits to HIMSELF. All Nicola's hard work FOR FREE!!!!, and then some scumbag like Foley comes along and reaps the monetary rewards. GOD I HATE THIS GUY!!!

Foley must be stopped. I will GLADLY contribute to a defense fund for the MAME team...if anything, my money is better spent there than on joysticks and particle board. MAME has really giving us all a *LOT* of joy, we should make Foley pay dearly for trying to steal it all for himself. iROMS is fools errand. It's not even an original name (iTunes, iROMS, WTF??) Foley will never "stop all piracy"...does he think he's bigger than the RIAA?

It's a blatant money grab from an already shady "business" man.

Doesn't anyone on this forum have contacts w/ a good trademark lawyer who'll advise for little or no cost? A friend, brother, sister, acquaintance? I'm going to follow some leads and see if I can't dig somebody up myself.

mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 11:49:53 am
..you know
that really is a great quote
I'm changing my sig too

if anyone wants my old sig
it's right here http://img146.exs.cx/img146/48/ultrathief5qv.jpg

(http://img146.exs.cx/img146/48/ultrathief5qv.jpg)


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 12:07:35 pm
MUGSHOT (http://www.hyperware.com/company.htm)
(http://www.hyperware.com/images/davidrfoley.jpg)


...he writes poetry too:
Quote
Happiness and Sorrow

 

Our time away brings heaviness upon my heart.

I breathe the air, but am missing a vital substance.

 

My heart is longing for that special feeling that only comes from time together.

I think a million thoughts of you throughout the day,

days that without you seem to last forever.

 

Joy and Comfort are the most prevalent feelings that occupy my soul.

I gaze upon your image, and think of all that is wonderful and kind.

 

A warm sense of calm washes over my body as I dream of times together.

A cold shiver tightens my skin as I realize we are apart.

 

I long for day when once again we can breathe the same air,

And until that day happens,

just know that you are always with me.

 

David R. Foley, 2001

Copyright
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 05, 2005, 12:24:06 pm
[quote author=mr.Curmudgeon link=topic=32730.msg284627#msg284627

Doesn't anyone on this forum have contacts w/ a good trademark lawyer who'll advise for little or no cost? A friend, brother, sister, acquaintance? I'm going to follow some leads and see if I can't dig somebody up myself.

mrC
Quote

little on no cost????
we can pitch in a get a good lawyer. BIG $$$$$
you get what you pay for.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on March 05, 2005, 12:49:03 pm
Wow, this just gets more and more surreal.

I can't wait to read about the failure of "iRoms" or whatever his new scheme is.

MAME people already have thousands of games, who's he gonna sell his hundreds to?

The average mom'n'pop PC user? Riiiiiiiight. They're not gonna go through the trouble of setting up an emulator. MAME noobs? I think not... most of them only want newer, better bigger faster games than MAME really emulates. MAME users (like us?) We already have thousands of games. 

And for the few of us who thirst for legit ROMs, I think he may have burned that bridge with his underhanded business tactics and arrogance. "Oh, you WILL do business with US!"

Yeah, right, whatever... get stuffed Mr. Ultracade.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 12:54:28 pm
;) You really shouldn't say such things because:
Quote
"In the end, you will review our iROMs service, and talk all about it. You won't have a choice as it will have a huge impact on the community and you wont' want to be left out. I don't care if you don't review it, or even mention it, your participation will have no impact on it's success." - David R. Foley
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 05, 2005, 04:06:14 pm
;) You really shouldn't say such things because:
Quote
"In the end, you will review our iROMs service, and talk all about it. You won't have a choice as it will have a huge impact on the community and you wont' want to be left out. I don't care if you don't review it, or even mention it, your participation will have no impact on it's success." - David R. Foley
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#

I'm waiting for the "Review Police" to come to my door, knock it down, and force me to write a review of the iROMs service at gunpoint...because, honestly, that's the only way it's gonna happen now...

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 05, 2005, 04:08:29 pm
so how is he going to stop roms being freely available via bittorrent???

cant someone just go round and punch that smug smile off his face?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 04:47:48 pm
Quote
"We are concerned about the commercial marketplace, and not the readers of the many MAME user groups and forums." - David R. Foley
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4992

Quote
(To Kevin)
"In the end, you will review our iROMs service, and talk all about it. You won't have a choice as it will have a huge impact on the community and you wont' want to be left out. I don't care if you don't review it, or even mention it, your participation will have no impact on it's success." - David R. Foley
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#

When comparing these two quotes from David R. Foley it's quite apparant that this guy has no idea what he's talking about.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 05, 2005, 05:03:37 pm
so how is he going to stop roms being freely available via bittorrent???

cant someone just go round and punch that smug smile off his face?

He's local to me, but he seems like the type that would take my house after he got out of the hospital and I'm not down with spending any more time in jail.  ;D

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 05, 2005, 05:08:48 pm
lol.

Simple assault = Huber, unless you have priors. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 05, 2005, 05:22:35 pm
He has balls... I must give him that.
He is stupid as a box of rocks.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 05, 2005, 05:36:25 pm
iTunes and other downloadable music services would have never made it without the iPod and other portable players

since he's calling it iROMs i'll bet he'll be targeting mobile phones with it
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 05, 2005, 06:47:50 pm
I hope some one here is in contact with the Mame people. Is it time to give cash yet?
I am ready to help. I would prefer to offer my help as a thug.
I am sure they want no part of that , so lets hire a lawyer as a thug
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Patent Doc on March 05, 2005, 07:47:58 pm
Quote
Doesn't anyone on this forum have contacts w/ a good trademark lawyer who'll advise for little or no cost? A friend, brother, sister, acquaintance? I'm going to follow some leads and see if I can't dig somebody up myself.

OK, I can't break any ethics rules, so I'm not gonna advise who to use nor tell you which firm is mine...and I'm certain it won't be free (I'd do the work for free, but I've never done trademarks stuff (I only do patent work) so you'd be better off paying someone who knows what they are doing), but these are some of the BIG boys of IP.  If you want patents, trademarks, copyrights, or litigation dealing with the above, these are your firms

Fish and Richardson
Sutherland Asbill and Brennan
Fish and Neave
Needle and Rosenberg
Kilpatrick Stockton
Morris Manning and Martin
Merchant and Gould
Alston and Bird
Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Garrett and Dunner
King and Spalding
Womble Carlyle
Jones Day

Any one of these firms can duke it out with anyone in the world and win.  Some have more trademark experience and some are better at litigation, but all of the rock.

By the way, if we start taking up a collection, count me in.

Patent Doc
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 05, 2005, 08:53:24 pm
I'll drink the fifth.... err plead the fifth on that.   ;D

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 06, 2005, 01:40:43 am
wha hoo... found my old stomping grounds
join me here from time to time
http://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=emuadvice
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SNAAKE on March 06, 2005, 04:20:16 am
Um..wow look at this ultracade auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6158036853&rd=1

"We have EVEN MORE of your
 ALL TIME FAVORITE titles available - call for a complete list!

 
 We will also CUSTOMIZE your ULTRACADE with the specific add-ons YOU WANT and offer "SPECIAL PRICING" on ALL add-ons purchased for your machine NOW and in the FUTURE!
 
BUY your ULTRACADE from US and enjoy DISCOUNTED add-on PRICING and TOLL FREE 24/7 SUPPORT & SERVICE for the LIFE of your machine!"

===================================

I bet he is running mame code under his own custom frontend.Like that dude selling "the time machine" cuz he runs his own frontend+mame and acts like he "CREATED" MAME.
Anyway,somebody is GOT to do something about this ultracade cakehole.We should keep bombing emails to ebay customer service or something.I mean seriouslly,how could you POSSIBLY be licencing "EVEN MORE OF THE CUSTOMER'S FAVORITE GAMES FOR SPECIAL PRICING"........................... ::)
*HOOOUUUCHHHH* Oh I am sorry I am allergic to BULL$HIT !!!! >:( >:(


His auction description should have been something like this :
 "we will add more ROMS on your MAME *cough* ultracade machine for special price.We will still sell the ROMS illegally but we will charge you special price for it and act like we are actually licencing the SPECIFIC customer requested games from the full list of games we cant post on auctions because people will know we are using MAME on our crappy ultracades"

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 06, 2005, 07:44:38 am
Um..wow look at this ultracade auction.

That auction is for an Ultracade machine...but it's NOT run by Ultracade.  That's an arcade store about 100 miles from me that sells machines.  They've got hundreds of different machines in stock.  It's a visual wonder to walk in and see it all...but most couldn't afford the prices he charges.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 06, 2005, 09:02:01 am
I was at emuhelp last night I see thay are ready to pitch in some cash also.
I used to run the treasury at North West  Phoenix Atari Club (NWPAC)
I do not know how everyone would like to handel this but if I can help I will.
I can start a bank acount and post the books daily.
No I do not want to rip anybody off before you say it. I want to fry Dave Foley
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: scatter on March 06, 2005, 10:46:29 am

I bet he is running mame code under his own custom frontend.Like that dude selling "the time machine" cuz he runs his own frontend+mame and acts like he "CREATED" MAME.


Oddly enough I talked to "the time machine guy" yesterday (Sat) at an Auction over in TN. He doesn't really claim to have invented MAME, but his is proud of that silly menu...

-b
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 06, 2005, 03:11:18 pm
Kevin has updated his home page with some interesting information that everyone should read NOW!!!
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#

Here's just one interesting part:
Quote
Here's an explaination direct from Mr. Foley:

"iROMs will be launching this summer. If we get some help from the MAME team, and keep it out of the commercial market (just as they claim is the intent in MAME.TXT) we will allow the roms to run on MAME machines. The model is much like iTunes. We'll have staggered pricing from $9.99 for titles like Defender or Street Fighter II, down as low as $0.99 for titles like Speed Coin.

Licenses will be for consumer, end user use only, no resale of roms, no public performance of ROMs, etc etc. We'll start with PC and MAC platforms, and then look at some of the handhelds such as GP32."

In order to protect this service, David Foley is planning an all-out assault on pirate ROM sites. As he puts it:

"We'll have the only legal means to get hundreds of games, AND, we will shut down every pirate site in the coming year. If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 06, 2005, 03:28:11 pm
It's exactly how we thought.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on March 06, 2005, 04:31:25 pm
Y'know, after everything is said and done, I'm not to worried. The current owners of the Amiga brand tried crushing out the "piracy" of their 15 year old software, and they failed on a cataclysmic scale. (a side note- they also shut down porn sites with the word "amiga" (Spanish for female friend)) They have a lot more resources that Ultrawhatever, and their mission, aside from harassing sites with 10 Amiga disk images and pornographers, was a miserable failure.

Foley will do no better. He has essentially poisoned himself within the user base, and will have to rely on operators or the ignorant to make a profit. I doubt any MAME users will promote his product through word of mouth, no one will review it (or even bash it), and no MAME user will buy it.

If I were to make a wager, I would bet that his iRoms idea will sink faster than a solid gold boat filled with lead. It's as though he shot himself in the foot, and not satisfied with the results, proceeded to shoot himself in the kneecap, hip, torso, chest, neck, head and arms.

I'm really, really interested in the endgame. I'll pop the popcorn, you bring the beer.

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 06, 2005, 04:33:17 pm
"We'll have the only legal means to get hundreds of games, AND, we will shut down every pirate site in the coming year. If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."

So Foley want's to create a monopoly an anti competitive market.

Foley = Microsoft Jr?

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on March 06, 2005, 04:39:49 pm
Foley will do no better. He has essentially poisoned himself within the user base, and will have to rely on operators or the ignorant to make a profit.

And it doesn't even look like iRoms will be legally usable by 'operators' anyway.    Not that I believe everything/anything Foley claims, but he says "Licenses will be for consumer, end user use only, no resale of roms, no public performance of ROMs, etc "

So his only market is the home user who wants to play these games.  He's not going to see one thin dime from me or many other current Mame users, so how does this guy think this business plan is going to succeed?

I think the answer is "because he plans on putting all Mame users out of bid'ness" but I really really don't see that happening.  The RIAA hasn't gotten rid of illegal mp3s & Adobe and Microsoft haven't eliminated pirate software and they're all much bigger and more powerful than Foley. 

I say we start the clock now and start taking bids on how long it takes before his iRoms idea fails
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Pete Harcoff on March 06, 2005, 05:41:50 pm
Y'know, after everything is said and done, I'm not to worried. The current owners of the Amiga brand tried crushing out the "piracy" of their 15 year old software, and they failed on a cataclysmic scale.

Or the current fiasco with the music industry versus music pirates.

While he might be able to get some sites shut down or knock off some eBay auctions, he's hardly going to stop ROM piracy.  The guy is dreaming.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: itismejs on March 06, 2005, 06:24:26 pm
Um..wow look at this ultracade auction.

That auction is for an Ultracade machine...but it's NOT run by Ultracade.  That's an arcade store about 100 miles from me that sells machines.  They've got hundreds of different machines in stock.  It's a visual wonder to walk in and see it all...but most couldn't afford the prices he charges.
I bought my MAME cab from them. (it wasnt a
MAME machine when I bought it)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 06, 2005, 06:48:23 pm
No kidding.  That means you're not too far from me.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SNAAKE on March 06, 2005, 08:52:36 pm
Quote
If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."


Quote

What I dont understand is how exactly he is supposed to be the "owner" of all the roms supported by MAME ??

Somebody wanna explain ??? ???

This David Fooley is seriouslly retarded if he is trying to get people to buy the very old games like sf2 and final fight via his iROM crap.Ultracades only has the rights to sell like what maybe 20-30 old games WITH their machines.I still dont understand how cabinet sellers on ebay is hurting his iROM business.People need to play legally then people will go buy the licence from him(for sf2 LOL).I choose to download all the roms cuz I think companies dont profit from them anymore and as an arcade addict,I have the rights to have all the games I want ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Daniel270 on March 06, 2005, 08:56:56 pm
I just can't wait to see all the lawsuits line up for lost business  ;D  starting with emdkay, MAMEMarquees and Dream Arcades
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 06, 2005, 10:22:59 pm
I've been doing some research through federal publications & it looks like the MAME art logo is copyrighted by the original person that made it.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wccc
"Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright."

It falls under:
"pictorial, graphic, and sculptural works"

FYI:
"The 1976 Copyright Act defines publication as follows:

"Publication" is the distribution of copies or phonorecords of a work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending."

"Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin."

To register a work, send the following three elements in the same envelope or package to:

Library of Congress
Copyright Office
101 Independence Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20559-6000

A properly completed application form.
A nonrefundable filing fee of $30 for each application.

--
So whoever made that graphic needs to send $30 in and then file an infringement suit against Foley.  The suit will allow collection of all lost money.  (like the money Emdkay and those other guys were *ahem*about to start paying for using that graphic).  That will allow the printer guys to also file an infringement suit.  That assumes that they have come to an agreement regarding royalties to the original author.  I thought I heard a rumor it was like $30 or something. ;)  I'm sure ya'll can work something out.

For additional information, request Publication No. 563 "How to Protect Your Intellectual Property Right," from: U.S. Customs Service, P.O. Box 7404, Washington, D.C. 20044.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 06, 2005, 10:32:15 pm
Y'know, after everything is said and done, I'm not to worried.

I think the thing a lot of people are missing here is the very real chance that Foley will bring the original ROMS owners sniffing around, since he's screaming so loud about profit and that may put a real chill into developers.

What I see happening, even after iROMS meets it's inevitable end, is that further progress on MAME will no longer be viable for Nicolas and the rest of the MAME dev team. It will just be too risky for them to continue, given the possible threat of lawsuits from ROM license holders. MAME exists, and has thrived, because no one else cared about the ROMS. Now that Foley has started the shakedown, it seems like only a matter of time before other morons are trying to bleed the community.

So sure, we'll be able to download all the current MAME roms from newsgroups, or whatever. We just won't see new games added anymore...and the program will go stagnant. They *may* even have to start cutting games out, so future versions of MAME may have *less* and less games, as opposed to more and more.

I hope I'm wrong.

mrC


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 06, 2005, 11:31:04 pm
I think you're right Mr. C.  MAME has been creeping closer to ROM's that people "care about".  Most of the "old" games are lost regarding who owns what.  The newer games however... everyone knows who owns the rights to GT...

That's exactly why Foley's "business model" can't work.  He can send letters and try to shut sites down, but people just have to request proof of ownership.

He's already admitted that he isn't selling the "actual" roms, because he said his won't work with MAME.  So that means people can buy "his version" or get the real thing for free.  That's why none of this has been pushed real hard before, there's no profit in it.  Foley just thinks he can force one. ::)

Boycott Arcade Legends and Ultracade
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on March 06, 2005, 11:43:35 pm

If I were to make a wager, I would bet that his iRoms idea will sink faster than a solid gold boat filled with lead. It's as though he shot himself in the foot, and not satisfied with the results, proceeded to shoot himself in the kneecap, hip, torso, chest, neck, head and arms.

I'm really, really interested in the endgame. I'll pop the popcorn, you bring the beer.


/me has his wife looking at him like he's deranged, he's laughing so hard  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: fredster on March 07, 2005, 09:34:25 am
I saw about 5 Ultracades at the Knoxville Auction.

They were in the $750 to $1100 range.  One Daphne kinda game with Space Ace, etc went for $375 (I think).

There was a machine called the "Time Machine" that was Huge. Is that by Ultracade?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 07, 2005, 09:56:52 am
IIRC a guy here made Time Machine, and has been making copies since.  I could be wrong about that, but I definitely remember the artwork being discussed here.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 07, 2005, 10:07:43 am
is he really writing his own emulation software for his machines? is that really feasible to do?

has DF had  known involvement in the emulation scene before or contributed to mame or previous emulation projects?

probably more likely to be ripping off mame and daphne project and efforts of their devs

i mean does his software emulate something that mame does not? does it offer better support for certain roms that mame does not? is there any similar evidence to suggest that it is all his own work (apart from a fancy menu system)?

in case of possible infringement of the mame source code licence agreement couldn't mame devteam legally make him submit his source code for review?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on March 07, 2005, 11:23:05 am
If "writing his own software" = "probably stealing MAME and every other emulator" then yes.  :P
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 07, 2005, 11:30:42 am
Um..wow look at this ultracade auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6158036853&rd=1

"We have EVEN MORE of your
 ALL TIME FAVORITE titles available - call for a complete list!

 

That didn't have the standard Ultracade panel.  Someone added that...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 07, 2005, 11:39:59 am
iRoms will never exist because Apple will sue DF for stealing their "i" marketing campaign to make a profit....

Also, why would people purchase from iRoms when most people can get roms for free or at minimal cost? 

I have a feeling when Mame hits v1.00.  Its going to stop...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on March 07, 2005, 12:17:45 pm
IMHO - "iRoms" the name is a diversionary label.  He would have to be dim to toss that name out without already having trademarked it.  I suspect he does plan to try and sell roms to the home user, but I would be totally shocked if it happens under the "iRom" label.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 07, 2005, 01:01:52 pm
What I don't understand is this:
- MAME supports the EXACT arcade game.
- Foley's ROM's won't work with MAME.
- Foley can't be using the EXACT game then.  It has to be recoded.

Why would anyone pay Foley for ROM's that aren't the real game?  He wants $0.99 - $9.99 EACH!

Since it's not the real game anyhow, why don't I just buy one of those cd's at bestbuy etc that has 100 arcade games out of the $6.99 bin?  I can play that on any computer, won't need his emulator (don't know how much that is), and I get more for my money, not to mention additional titles.

Who does he think is his target market?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 07, 2005, 01:09:02 pm
Just read DF's replies to Kevin Steele's (Retroblast) questions.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 07, 2005, 01:12:55 pm
Who does he think is his target market?

His target market is the people that already spent the $3000+ to get an Ultracade machine.  As you'll need his machine to run roms purchased from iRoms.

Since Ultracade is just software.  I can't wait for someone to hack/crack/emulate Ultracade.  I can't imagine it'll be that hard or it'll be that big that it couldn't be traded around the world in a matter of seconds. 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 07, 2005, 01:18:50 pm
Also if money is needed to start a MAME legal fund.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SNAAKE on March 07, 2005, 02:09:55 pm
Just read DF's replies to Kevin Steele's (Retroblast) questions.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: APFelon on March 07, 2005, 06:03:37 pm

I think the thing a lot of people are missing here is the very real chance that Foley will bring the original ROMS owners sniffing around, since he's screaming so loud about profit and that may put a real chill into developers.


I would be more willing to believe this scenario if there was a precident behind it. The emulation of copyrighted software is not very "underground" anymore like it was in the early days, and I'm sure every prominent (and not so prominent) software house is aware of emulation.

I suppose a profit motive would incite some companies to act, but I think they look at the profitability of compilation CDs and figure the cost to profit ratio isn't significant enough to waste resources trying to obliterate ROM images from the Internet (which would be like trying to empty the ocean with a collander) or targeting emulation software developers (especially after the costly lesson Sony learned from the Bleem incident).

Foley isn't the Pied Piper of Hamlin, he is a two-bit cabinet salesman whose fifteen minutes of fame started ticking away when he decided to irritate the emulation community. He isn't going to persuade ROM copyright holders to assail emulation developers unless he can turn a HARDY profit of corporate perportions. And like I said, the emualtion community thinks of him as a festering turd in the swimming pool and won't send him a dime for the iRoms project or anyone else. I think the chances of him turning any REAL profit is narrow.

APf
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 07, 2005, 07:50:36 pm
Just read DF's replies to Kevin Steele's (Retroblast) questions.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Havok on March 07, 2005, 09:32:25 pm
This won't be on ebay for long:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=4532152110&rd=1

Foleyhole owns the rights to mame - even if the application hasn't been approved, and he didn't create it. Oh, and don't forget - he owns the rights to an image he didn't create too!

Down with all things mame!


 :P
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 07, 2005, 09:45:00 pm
Just read DF's replies to Kevin Steele's (Retroblast) questions.  And the guy is making it seem he ALREADY owns MAME and he owns every game ever developed.



That is EXACTLY what I said.I mean...how dumb can this DF can POSSIBLY be...................................
as dumb as a box of rocks

Sharp as a marble, quick as a tree!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 08, 2005, 12:06:51 am
Can we get this thread deleted please.. just in case...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Megaweapon on March 08, 2005, 01:18:23 am
Can we get this thread deleted please.. just in case...
I have to ask...

In case of what?

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 08, 2005, 06:02:33 am
is this the longest thread there has been on BYOAC?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 08, 2005, 07:01:07 am
I think so.  The longest used to be the token design thread - I am too lazy to search for it but I think that was 12-15 pages.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 08, 2005, 08:15:24 am
is this the longest thread there has been on BYOAC?

I think it's safe to say yes

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 08, 2005, 09:21:19 am
Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 08, 2005, 10:02:41 am
?????
I do not under stand what you are saying.
OK , I can go and download some Roms from them and pay them for it.
But pledge $$$ to them ? I don't get it.
I must be missunderstanding your post
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 08, 2005, 10:47:13 am
My understanding of it is;
Ultracade is trying to monopolize legal rom distribution with iRoms.
Helping a community-friendly competitor, such as StarRoms can only hurt iRoms.

People have talked about donating money to help 'the cause', but it's unclear how money would be helpful in this situation.
The only way I can see is to help StarRoms, financially or otherwise, to acquire licensing from more game companies. So they'll have a service offering the same product as iRoms (maybe even more) that is backed by the emulation community.

Supporting iRoms sole competitor can only be good.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 08, 2005, 10:47:41 am
Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?

It sounds like DF is looking to put StarRoms out of business. I wonder what their take is on all this. Do they have an exclusive licencing agreement with Atari?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 08, 2005, 10:50:49 am
Has anyone been in touch with StarRoms?

You know, if StarRoms had some support they could probably acquire more licenses and make iRoms obsolete even before it's launched. If the community is going to donate anything financially, I think we should see if StarRoms could do with anything.

iRoms isn't getting EXCLUSIVE rights to sell roms is it?

It sounds like DF is looking to put StarRoms out of business. I wonder what their take is on all this. Do they have an exclusive licencing agreement with Atari?

As far as I can tell, none of this legal rom licensing is exclusive to any one company. Both Ultracade and StarRoms offer Atari roms.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 08, 2005, 11:21:48 am
Who does he think is his target market?
His target market is the people that already spent the $3000+ to get an Ultracade machine.  As you'll need his machine to run roms purchased from iRoms.

Actually.. the target market with iROMs is NOT the people who spent $3000+ on an Ultracade machine

Ultracade is targeted primarily at the coin-op industry where machines will be used to make a profit.

iROMs is for the consumer ONLY and will not be allowed on a coin-op machine
iROMs will not even work on an Ultracade machine at all.
So you will not need a $3000+ Ultracade machine to run iROMs

iROMs will be targeted at PCs , MACs , GP32s , and I predict Mobile Phones in the future

read this quote again from Kevin's site:

Quote
"Licenses will be for consumer, end user use only, no resale of roms, no public performance of ROMs, etc etc. We'll start with PC and MAC platforms, and then look at some of the handhelds such as GP32."

In order to protect this service, David Foley is planning an all-out assault on pirate ROM sites. As he puts it:

"We'll have the only legal means to get hundreds of games, AND, we will shut down every pirate site in the coming year. If people want them legally, they'll get them from us."
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php#
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 08, 2005, 11:26:16 am
look what i found when browsing happ's new products

http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/gameparts/96063200.htm

look at the copyright text on the PCB...UltraCade!!!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 08, 2005, 11:39:13 am
I prefer to give my $$$ for a lawyer for the Mame Dev's to battle in court.
I allready buy Roms from star Roms ;)
How will I Roms be more legal than every one Else's. Because he so said so?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 08, 2005, 11:55:06 am
I prefer to give my $$$ for a lawyer for the Mame Dev's to battle in court.
I allready buy Roms from star Roms ;)
How will I Roms be more legal than every one Else's. Because he so said so?

Is not an issue of being 'more legal' - why should the public be forced to buy all their roms from iRoms so an as$hole like Dave Foley can turn a profit?
At the moment, StarRoms is the only other option for purchasing legal roms but their selection is limited to a handful of Atari games.
I'm saying we should try to help them to expand their library somehow. StarRoms is a community friendly company and has even donated money to the Mame Devs in the past.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 08, 2005, 01:01:08 pm
What I don't understand is this:
- MAME supports the EXACT arcade game.
- Foley's ROM's won't work with MAME.
- Foley can't be using the EXACT game then.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 08, 2005, 01:48:24 pm
But then it's not the same ROM...

I don't see how encrypting the "old" makes the original "old" illegal.  Foley keeps saying that the original ROM's are illegal, but it's never been to court.  He has zero authority over the old ROM's.  That's my point about who is his target market.  The way I see it, is there are two groups:

1- People who want the EXACT game they used to play.
2- People who want to play something close.

For group #1, Foley will never sell anything.  He ticked them all off already and they already have an emu and the ROM's.  Unless Foley goes to their house and destroys their computer and any CD's they have, he has no market here.  Besides, "his laws" don't apply in other countries.  Any purchases in the US from this group will be through starroms.  Whatever starroms doesn't carry will be obtained over the internet.

For group #2, a trip to bestbuy or anyplace software is sold will show waaaay better prices.  I've seen cd's of old titles for $5 that had 100+ games on it.  His prices can't compete with that.

Who is left?

What Foley is trying to do is this:
He will sell the ROM's under the pretense that he owns the rights to do so (just like he did with Namcos stuff in his Ultracade).  If he is challenged by a TRUE owner of the game rights, he will take the ROM down or offer some deal (like he is doing with the MAME dev's).  Meanwhile he profits on work that has no owner because he says he owns them.  He has no more right than any of us to sell 90+% of the games MAME supports.

Somebody just needs to get this a-wipe in court.  He has no legal standing on what he is doing.  He won't need to prove ownership until challenged, so I say let's challenge him.  If he took down your auctions or whatever, sue him.  Other than pissing me off, he hasn't "done" anything to me other than limit my choices for stuff to buy on ebay etc.  I don't have much legal standing to sue him, but some of you other guys do.  So if you can, please do.

His past actions speak volumes for what this guy thinks he can do.  It's up to all of us to run him out of business.  Don't buy anything relating to him and send gripe letters to the distributors carrying his products.  Police his stuff like he does Ebay.  I've already notified Namco about several distributors of his Ultracade machines advertising Namco games (which Namco already had their lawyers "discuss" with Foley once before).  I've stood next to an Arcade Legends in a store and spoke with the customers there and the management and the machine is no longer for sale at that location.  If you see an opportunity, take it.  If you don't, it's obvious where this is heading.  It's easy to talk, but talking won't stop him from polluting this hobby.

So everyone spend 10 minutes a day to contact people/police his sales/whatever.

[/rant] ;)

Arcade Legends and Ultracade blow!
Support www.starroms.com (http://www.starroms.com)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 08, 2005, 02:17:35 pm
What DF is trying to trademark is only a word and a logo.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 08, 2005, 07:42:16 pm
But foley wants to shut it all down.  He doesn't care whether he actually owns the rights or not.  He doesn't have any rights to the MAME name/software/ or art but look at how many auctions he has cancelled because he SAYS he does.  It's going to be the same thing with ROM's.  He'll be getting in touch with each ISP and tell them he owns the rights.  Then whatever site it is will be taken down.  Just like the auctions currently are on ebay.

Meanwhile, he'll try and sell them all.  Just ask Namco.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 08, 2005, 07:46:03 pm
But foley wants to shut it all down.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 08, 2005, 08:02:59 pm
That's why I wonder who he thinks his market is.  The more sites he shuts down, the more auctions he has pulled, the harder he pushes... the greater the backlash.

Foley has no ethics when it comes to trying to get his way.  That is proven by his track record.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 09, 2005, 06:09:38 am
the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

the more i think of this, i figure that it is desperate actions from somebody who's company is going down the pan...

is it possible to review his company accounts for last few years? is that information publicly available in the US?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 09, 2005, 08:08:14 am
the more i think of this, i figure that it is desperate actions from somebody who's company is going down the pan...

I agree.  It wouldn't be the first time Ultracade went in the tank. 
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: daywane on March 09, 2005, 08:29:55 am
I have contacted any one selling his junk and informed them Thank Dave Foley why no one will bid on any product made from him. I also told them they have illegal Roms on the machine
No one has clearly stated why his Roms are legal and mine are not.
most of the Roms out there are abounded. who really owns them?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 09, 2005, 09:50:23 am
most of the Roms out there are ABANDONED. who really owns them?

Well, that's already been discussed to death... The roms anyone cares about (ie: GOOD games) still have clear owners. Atari, Midway, Williams, Capcom, Taito, SNK, etc... 

There are only a few gray-area ones. Like Universal games? No one has come out with a Universal classics collection, but I do know a new Mr. Do games was released on the SNES in mid-90's, so that license must belong to some company somewhere...

Berzerk and Frenzy have never been re-released either, but I do know Mr Stern still owns the rights to those (I emailed and asked about that a couple years ago).

It's pretty rare when a company goes out of business, that their assets and intellectual properties don't get sold off to someone else.


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 09, 2005, 09:51:34 am
the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

They are already there...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 09, 2005, 10:48:59 am
the mame roms will just go onto bittorrent network or MIRC- how the hell does he think he would stop that? is he going to go after each individual?

They are already there...

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, if the heat (ie: legal challenges on rom ownership) gets to be too much for MAME developers to work through (which wouldn't be a lot of heat, mind you. They *are* doing this for free, so I can't see them taking *any* personal risk), there would be no further development of MAME. No games added, no drivers updated. That, to me, is the biggest possible tragedy of this whole debacle.

That Foley *can't* stop roms from being distributed on bittorrent, et al. isn't as important as the possibility of him stopping further development of MAME altogether.

With each new MAME release, I look forward to rediscovering something. Some old, obscure, lost memory...or something new, a game I'd had never had the chance to encounter before. If the MAME team were to give up, in lieu of constantly spending their time defending themselves (even if we supported them w/ a "MAME Defense Fund", they'd still have to spend inordinate amounts of time filing legal papers)...the journey stops.

Yes, I KNOW there are already THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of games to choose from, even were development to stop TODAY. However, to me, MAME has always been about the journey of rediscovery. Were it to stop, I feel a little bit of that magic dies.

If you don't think this can happen, think again. Retro-gaming is FAST becoming a huge commerical fad. There is an Ultracade at WALMART for christsakes, and besides that, you can get those 12-in-1 gaming joysticks by the buttload there. StarRoms catalog of ROMS is dwindling (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,33248.0.html), instead of growing larger, due to licensing conflicts with Atari, as Atari works to put out even more of their own "classic collections." How long before everyone is following suit?

Are there members of the community that are willing and/or able to pick up development on MAME and take it "underground", should Nicolas back off? Or is this emulator on borrowed time?

Or should we work even harder to shut Foley down and make him regret taking the abhorrent, ethically challenged position he has taken against the MAME development team and the retro-gaming community? At what point do we, as a group, take action against Foley? I'm tired of waiting to see what he does...to me, it's obvious he doesn't care about any of the things we hold dear here at the BYOAC forum!!

Basically, I'm asking for a summation of where we're at in this fight. What should we expect going forward, and what do we plan to do about it should we decide to be proactive in our defense of an emulator, and a community we have all grown to love.




mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 09, 2005, 10:55:40 am
You are forgetting.. when the MAME team does a ROM dump.  They are doing it from the actual board.  So them doing a ROM dump is OK because they actually own the board that they are dumping.

So emulating a ROM you own is legally OK for the MAME team.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 09, 2005, 11:04:57 am
So emulating a ROM you own is legally OK for the MAME team.

Well, if they are forced to defend this...I can imagine it holding up in a licensing battle. Especially given the fact that their emulator software is freely, and widely, distributed.

BLEEM, for example, was one company (Sony) against one development group (BLEEM). Once that case was over, BLEEM's fight was over. Plus, it was worth it for BLEEM to fight, as they were selling a commercial product, and they stood to make a profit (I believe). If roms licenses become a hot commodity, there will be *many* license holders against *one* development group (MAME). I can't imagine MAME devs fighting against any company, let alone many of them, for the right to distribute FREE software, based on their FREE time?!

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 09, 2005, 11:11:31 am
Here are the results from some relevant polls on Kevin's Retroblast site:
(http://img146.exs.cx/img146/8278/polls5nm.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 09, 2005, 11:13:05 am

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC
...sounds like the start of a great song..  lol
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 09, 2005, 11:17:10 am
Quote
Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

MrC, I agree again!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 09, 2005, 11:20:03 am

Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC
...sounds like the start of a great song..  lol

HEHE...Yeah, it's called, "It's The End Of Emulation As We Know It (And It's Not Time!!)"...

mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 09, 2005, 11:32:18 am
I think the key is to figure out how to help StarRoms get more ROMs.  I have bought my ROMS from them, what else can we do?  Would price increases help get more licensing deals? Does anyone know if they are represented here?

Yeah! This was the point I was trying to make earlier- we NEED to help StarRoms become more successful and overshadow iRoms. I'm still not sure how we'd do this, hopefully someone from StarRoms will hear the anti-iRoms war cry and let is know what we should do.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 09, 2005, 11:36:31 am
Quote
Can't find the answer you're looking for? Send email to support@starroms.com or we can be reached by telephone at 866-401-9936.

Quote
You can contact StarROMs via email at the following addresses:
Feedback:   feedback@starroms.com
Customer Support:   support@starroms.com
Legal & Copyrights:   legal@starroms.com
General Inquiry:   info@starroms.com

StarROMs is a Delaware Corporation with offices in Ohio and Vermont. We can be reached by mail at either of the following addresses:

    StarROMs, Inc.
    14155 Perfect Road
    Sunbury, OH 43074
    U.S.A.

    StarROMs, Inc.
    P.O. Box 12
    Taftsville, VT 05073
    U.S.A.

Thank you for supporting StarROMs.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 09, 2005, 11:37:46 am
I emailed them yesterday, but I don't want to bombard them. I know that KevSteele has also tried to contact them recently.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 09, 2005, 11:38:29 am
which address did you use?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 09, 2005, 11:39:50 am
which address did you use?

info@starroms info@starroms.com
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Dexter on March 09, 2005, 11:47:21 am
Help me alleviate this fear. So far, I haven't heard a strong argument suggesting that MAME is in the clear...

mrC

The MAME site points out that the purpose of the emulator is to preserve the hardware, playing the games is a nice side effect (I know, I know). While not watertight this has been the official standpoint since as long as I'm a user (i.e. since mame 030). While downloading the roms may be illegal, as long as they own one original board and the emulator is original code by the mamedevs I don't see how they could be liable. They cannot be held responsible for misuse by others in the community.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 09, 2005, 11:53:35 am
which address did you use?

info@starroms

you need to add a ".com"  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Santoro on March 09, 2005, 12:01:21 pm
The MAME site points out that the purpose of the emulator is to preserve the hardware, playing the games is a nice side effect (I know, I know). While not watertight this has been the official standpoint since as long as I'm a user (i.e. since mame 030). While downloading the roms may be illegal, as long as they own one original board and the emulator is original code by the mamedevs I don't see how they could be liable. They cannot be held responsible for misuse by others in the community.

Yes, just like Napster had legitimate uses.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Dexter on March 09, 2005, 12:44:19 pm
Thing is, the DVD writer in my PC, under my TV and cd burner etc. are accepted to be used 90%+ of the time for non-legit reasons, should they be banned too? The Mamedevs are careful to keep newer games disabled in their builds until 2 or 3 years after their release, ensuring no serious loss of revenue for the gamemakers, whereas filesharing software does cause a major hit to music and movie studios on a zero day ongoing basis. Given the mindful actions of the mamedevs, misuse by others will not cause the kind of financial loss that might bring about lawsuits. As long as everybody keeps on track with their heads down, while making life difficult for this idiot, things should be ok in the long run.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 09, 2005, 01:58:16 pm
Human beings should no longer reproduce, because your offspring might be used for illegal activities when they grow up!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GGKoul on March 09, 2005, 03:08:39 pm
WOW!!!

Look at the prices of the Ultracade Game Packs on the bottom of the page...

http://www.thepinballstore.com/ultracade.html

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 09, 2005, 03:34:04 pm
WOW!!!

Look at the prices of the Ultracade Game Packs on the bottom of the page...

http://www.thepinballstore.com/ultracade.html



From that above link:

"Availability on all games contained on Ultracade Technology products changes almost daily, so please give us a call to find out all the latest updates on this incredible machine."
(emphasis mine)

Gee...wonder why?

mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 09, 2005, 10:15:03 pm
I'd be interested to see how Tempest and Asteroids perform in an Ultracade cocktail cabinet. No emulator has ever had real cocktail modes for a lot of games that Ultracade included in some game packs.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Ken Layton on March 10, 2005, 01:17:06 am
Just got a new products flyer from Happ Controls. Guess what---they are now distributing Ultracade boards and complete machines!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SNAAKE on March 10, 2005, 02:40:26 am
Human beings should no longer reproduce, because your offspring might be used for illegal activities when they grow up!


LOLOLOL

 :laugh:
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 10, 2005, 11:40:16 am
Just got a new products flyer from Happ Controls. Guess what---they are now distributing Ultracade boards and complete machines!

Happ Controls was involved with getting Ultracade back on its feet after Hyperware went bankrupt.
David R. Foley definitely has some friends there.

I'm not sure if this article was mentioned already but here's one that shows how Happ Controls was involved in getting Ultracade back on it's feet:
http://www.casbox.com/Stinger/Sting130.html
Quote
THE STINGER REPORT #130




Ultracade Helped Back Into Ring

Word on the Street
As Hyperware ended their investment in the amusement sector, and dropped their 2,500 unit selling Ultracard retro kit and cabinet PC endeavors, industry philanthropist, Happ Controls, building on their Midway acquisition has stepped up to become the company's new controller.

The agreement will see the sales and manufacture of the Ultracade and any Graphite arcade PC's handled exclusively through Happ Controls. The Ultracade has proven more of a proposition to operators in its kit variant, though it is expected that a few upright cabinets will be manufactured. The remnants of the technical team retained by bankrupted Hyperware parent Quantum3D have privately agreed to support the Ultracade through a shell company called Ultracade Technologies. There are a number of pet projects that they would like to investigate along with additional game packs.

This will be the second indirect Midway acquisition that Happ will have acquired as they already run a number of kit versions of Midway "old Gold" (Invasion and Area 51), while the Ultracade runs a number of Midway titles. The return to the amusement sector, no matter how much supported by Happ, there is one issue that has followed the operation that looks set to be a constant issue in their new guise.

For those that have not followed the Stingers coverage of the Hyperware operation it is best to say that the company has attempted to present an amusement face to a sector of the hobby / consumer games market that has affected the arcade market. The Retro revival (playing of classic arcade games on home systems) has exploded on the playing scene since the late 90
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Witchboard on March 10, 2005, 04:48:32 pm
That's too bad.  Sanwa sticks are expensive.  Looks like I'll be out more pocket change.  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 10, 2005, 08:24:03 pm
Hey, check this out:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27096

A "horse racing sim"?

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 10, 2005, 09:55:27 pm
Hey, check this out:

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=27096

A "horse racing sim"?

Kevin

He is just copying the single most profitable arcade game available today, Derby Owners Club, it costs 150,000 and has a large install footprint, but it will take in $24 every 5 minutes on a busy friday or saturday night. There is one near where I live, on friday and saturday nights all 8 slots are filled (with people waiting in the wings) each person paying $3 every 5 minutes, so the machine is literally taking in about $300 an hour for a 6 hour stretch each friday and saturday and it sees decent play the rest of the week as well.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 11, 2005, 10:40:23 am
Yeah.. they are trying to compete against SEGA
Here's another article about it with some pics of some guys playing the SEGA game

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050302/SPORTS/503020458/1022
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 11, 2005, 10:52:23 am
How about this one?:
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1323_SF%20ann%20edition.jpg)
http://www.barcade.com/media_detail.php?type=media&id=1323
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 11, 2005, 11:00:24 am
Oh goodie.. here are the pics for the Ultracade Racing Sim:
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1630_BreedersCupLogo.jpg) (http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1735_BreedersCupss05.jpg)
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1632_BreedersCupCabinet.jpg)
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1688_BreedersCupss01.jpg) (http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1689_BreedersCupss02.jpg)
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1690_BreedersCupss03.jpg) (http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1734_BreedersCupss04.jpg)
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1736_BreedersCupss06.jpg) (http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1737_BreedersCupss07.jpg)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 11, 2005, 11:19:57 am
I don't guess this means anything but:

Quote
Ultracade Hires New Vice President of Manufacturing    
10 Mar, 2005


Ultracade Technologies manufacturer of classic multi-game video machines for the coin-op and consumer markets, today announced the new hire of Fred Abadi. Mr. Abadi brings over a decade of experience in manufacturing, customer service, operations and purchasing in the location-based entertainment market. Before joining the fast growing UltraCade team, Fred was employed at companies like Interactive Light and GlobalVR in manufacturing and operational positions. He worked on titles like Kick It, Slide It and Home Run Derby while at Interactive Light. At GlobalVR Fred lead manufacturing of unforgettable titles like PGA Golf and Need for Speed.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: paigeoliver on March 11, 2005, 11:58:36 am
My goodness, those pictures make it look like a complete rip off or Derby Owner's Club right down to the Engrish. Graphics looks better though, but that is to be expected.

The only problem is they are making the mistake of making them separate units, if they really want to sell machines that are profitible for the ops then they need the big unified install with the Giant double projection screens like Sega has, otherwise greedy ops will just buy a pair of them and then get all pissy when they can't earn like Derby Owner's Club can.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 11, 2005, 01:09:08 pm
My goodness, those pictures make it look like a complete rip off or Derby Owner's Club right down to the Engrish.

Would you expect anything less?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 11, 2005, 01:29:07 pm
The only problem is they are making the mistake of making them separate units, if they really want to sell machines that are profitible for the ops then they need the big unified install with the Giant double projection screens like Sega has, otherwise greedy ops will just buy a pair of them and then get all pissy when they can't earn like Derby Owner's Club can.

There's one at Gameworks in downtown Minneapolis.  That thing is crazy!!!  It's like the ultimate gigapet game.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DarkKobold on March 11, 2005, 01:42:53 pm
You know, with all this talk, has anyone actually done anything? Or are we just sitting around this sewing circle, and 700 replies later, still reitierating the same things?

Now, granted, I've not taken any actions, but it appears, other than cute pictures, no one else has either.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: mr.Curmudgeon on March 11, 2005, 02:16:44 pm
You know, with all this talk, has anyone actually done anything? Or are we just sitting around this sewing circle, and 700 replies later, still reitierating the same things?

Now, granted, I've not taken any actions, but it appears, other than cute pictures, no one else has either.

I am working on a boycott site for Ultracade. I didn't want to post anything about it yet, but I figure I might as well get some suggestions from the crew here. PM me with any suggestions, or offers to help. DO NOT POST INFO HERE...I don't want to tip my hand any more than this post already has.

I want it to have a database of products that are directly manufactured by Ultracade. I want to list EVERYTHING. I also want to list vendors that 'stock' Ultracade products, so we can possibly boycott them as well.

I intend on building/hosting the site, with others in the community helping me to manage it. Users that are given accounts will be able to add products to the list, so it will be a true community effort.

There will also be contact information for the various vendors, as well as information on how to go about addressing this issue w/ them most effectively.

I cannot stand by and wait while someone tries to destroy something I love.

More info as it develops.


mrC
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 11, 2005, 04:00:30 pm
You know, with all this talk, has anyone actually done anything? Or are we just sitting around this sewing circle, and 700 replies later, still reitierating the same things?

Now, granted, I've not taken any actions, but it appears, other than cute pictures, no one else has either.
Did you mean reiterating? ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 11, 2005, 06:58:34 pm
As I've said earlier in this thread, I think the best way of helping the MAME community battle Ultracade and the upcoming iRoms service would be to help their only competitor in the roms-for-private-use area; StarROMS.
With this in mind, I emailed Frank Leibly of StarROMs (you can read an interview with him here (http://curmudgeongamer.com/article.php?story=20031117201659765)) and asked him what the Mame community could do to help StarROMs and for his take on the situation.

With his permission, here is his response:
Quote
Paul while I'm thinking of it and since I really wanted to give you more in depth response anyway, let me suggest an idea to you.  The most important thing that the MAME community can do to help StarROMs is to help promote our service as a legitimate source of ROMs.  I realize our selection is limited but you see there is a kind of chicken and egg problem.  We need to show higher sales in order to acquire new licenses, and yet it's hard to generate large sales numbers with only a limited set of titles.  In our view a large percentage of MAME users are still using pirated ROMs.  Perhaps the rationale is that if you have to download some roms illegally, what is the value of downloading others legally.  We feel like we've received quite a bit of support from the MAME community, and we would like to be in a position to offer more support in return.  But the truth is that we have still not yet been universally accepted by and within the MAME community and there is a lot more that could be done to highlight StarROMs as a legal source for ROMS.  Honestly, I think David Foley is partially correct when he suggests (I'll paraphrase) that a lot of folks are at least implicitly, if not explicitly, encouraging illegal ROM distribution.

Clearly I'm biased, but I would love to see StarROMs more prominently highlighted as a legal source of ROMs on MAME related sites on the web, rather then pointing users in other directions, shall we say.   I honestly believe that if the MAME community were to universally embrace StarROMs and encourage MAME users to support us that our sales would sky-rocket and we could make much, much more compelling offers to game owners than we have been able to make thus far.  I understand that initially perhaps there was some concern that since StarROMs was a for profit venture, why should the MAME community embrace us as a solution.  We haven't tried to take a forceful approach to encouraging legal ROM use.  Instead we've taken the approach of letting users decide.  But the truth is it costs money to secure licenses and to hire lawyers to deal with, for example, the likes of Ultracade.  And a legal, commercial ROMs service such as StarROMs is in our view a very positive thing for the MAME community.

Let me suggest one other thing for your consideration and the consideration of others whom you may come into contact with.  Without StarROMs, I believe a fairly compelling case could be made by Ultracade or whomever that pretty much everything MAME related is illegal, since it is by and large used for illegal purposes.  MAME has never been put to this test but it seems possible and even perhaps likely that it will be in the future.  StarROMs has truly helped to legitimize this entire area, from a legal perspective, by offering a fully legal and compelling user experience with the games we offer.  With the Atari ROMs freely available from StarROMs (well, not free, but), it is quite reasonable to conclude that a large and substantial amount of the use of MAME is fully legal, something which could not previously be said.  StarROMs has never attempted to use a heavy hand to encourage the community to "come clean".  On the other hand if Ultracade were to become the only legal source for ROMS, I believe they would have a strong case, potentially, to "extract royalties" from anything and everything MAME related.   Clearly this is their intent, as evidenced by their actions.

In summary, perhaps if the MAME community were to collectively do some self policing, so to speak, highlighting the legal use of the product by encouraging people to use our service, rather then downloading ROMS illegally, this could prevent a situation longer term where David and his lawyers take on the "policing" role.  With greater support from the MAME community, I think there is a reasonable chance that together we can help preserve what has been created and build upon it's legitimacy rather then to see someone else hijack the entire market.

Thanks again for getting in touch Paul.

-Frank
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 11, 2005, 08:09:09 pm
Oh goodie.. here are the pics for the Ultracade Racing Sim:
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1735_BreedersCupss05.jpg)

Am I the only one who find "Press Start to Breed a New Horse" hilarious?

Perhaps I just have a sick mind...

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 11, 2005, 08:38:19 pm
I've contacted every distributor I can.

Any website I find that has an article about an Ultracade/Arcade Legends machine, I send an email pointing them to this thread with a nice message asking them to read it and post a link for their readers.

I got my local CostCo to remove an Arcade Legends machine.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SNAAKE on March 11, 2005, 09:36:08 pm
Foley is also using copy rigted artwork on his cabinet..someone wax him >:(
I see ryu and ken on his cab..how that is not "copy right infrigment" is beyond me but I am sure he is telling people HE drew everything from SCRATCH.

DF gets the dumbass of the year..we should do WHATEVER it takes to stop this nonsense BS ! >:(
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RetroJames on March 11, 2005, 11:08:08 pm
Oh goodie.. here are the pics for the Ultracade Racing Sim:
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1735_BreedersCupss05.jpg)

Am I the only one who find "Press Start to Breed a New Horse" hilarious?

Perhaps I just have a sick mind...

Kevin


BWAHAHAHAHA-LOL!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 12, 2005, 01:10:59 am
Perhaps it is based off of Foley's real life in which he has to pay to breed.

 ;D

-Goz


Oh goodie.. here are the pics for the Ultracade Racing Sim:
(http://www.barcade.com/media/images/1735_BreedersCupss05.jpg)

Am I the only one who find "Press Start to Breed a New Horse" hilarious?

Perhaps I just have a sick mind...

Kevin


BWAHAHAHAHA-LOL!
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Gunstar Hero on March 12, 2005, 11:34:14 am
Wow, Mr. Ultracade sucks and all, but I dig that Street Fighter cab.  ;D

LOL.  I wonder if SEGA will take Ultracade to task for "borrowing" DOC for their horse racing game...  :-\
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 12, 2005, 12:10:13 pm
Foley is also using copy rigted artwork on his cabinet..someone wax him >:(
I see ryu and ken on his cab..how that is not "copy right infrigment" is beyond me but I am sure he is telling people HE drew everything from SCRATCH.


I believe Ultracade has the legal rights to use the characters for the games they have licensed (that was one of their main points against EMDKay).

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 12, 2005, 01:29:27 pm
But do they have "exclusive" rights?  I think Foley is stretching his "authority".  That's why people should be challenging him when he say they can't do something.  He has to provide proof if asked.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 12, 2005, 01:39:45 pm
But do they have "exclusive" rights?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 12, 2005, 01:46:43 pm
I really wish these companies would pull out of Ultracade. >:(  I'm going to ask...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 12, 2005, 02:13:51 pm
Wow, Mr. Ultracade sucks and all, but I dig that Street Fighter cab.

i was thinking they look pretty good as well. i like the sideart.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on March 12, 2005, 09:01:50 pm

today announced the new hire of Fred Abadi.


*insert Kyle voice*

OH MY GOD!  THEY HIRED FREDSTER!

 ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 14, 2005, 11:52:46 am
looks like Kevin's done for now
Quote
The Final Word...For Now

3/12/05: Wrapping Things Up

This is going to be my last update on the "MAME Trademark War."

check it out:
http://www.retroblast.com/index.php
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on March 14, 2005, 12:06:54 pm
He makes a good point about buying from StarROMs.  Ironically, any of us here wouldn't think twice about paying $80 for a trackball or $20 for a marquee or $100 for side art for our cabinets, but we always want our software for free.  (Myself included.)  If everyone on this forum bought even $10 worth of ROMs from StarROMs, that would add up in a hurry.

--Chris
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: BackAgain on March 14, 2005, 06:17:19 pm
What the heck, I'll throw in my $.02
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 14, 2005, 10:04:22 pm
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76627578+&action=Request+Status

Did Foley finally wisen up?

"Current Status: Abandoned: Applicant's express request."


edit:
The reason I noticed it is because I'm putting together something for a European magazine.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 14, 2005, 10:18:02 pm
Allow me a Slim Pickens moment:

YeeeeHaaaaa!  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on March 14, 2005, 10:23:44 pm

What the heck, I'll throw in my $.02  (Hey! I just noticed my keyboard doesn't have the "cents" symbol!  How long has that been missing?)


They took it when they revamped keyboards in the mid 80's, along with the "any" key and the "Control" key my relatives keep telling me they don't have on their keyboards ::)

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 14, 2005, 11:24:56 pm
Look at Drew's sig, he knows.

Anyhow,

REMEMBER THIS:
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on March 15, 2005, 12:42:32 am
There's no need to twist the knife... isn't there a high road to be taken somewhere?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: armax on March 15, 2005, 02:01:11 am
There is a high road, there is also a CYA road.  Consumers speak with their wallets.  I for one, have no problems boycotting a business if their intent was to cripple an industry.  That hurts the consumer in the long run.  What goes around, comes around.  I sincerely hope he reaps what he sows....
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 15, 2005, 03:31:51 am
Allow me a Slim Pickens moment:

YeeeeHaaaaa!  ;D
I agree..
YaaaaaHooooooo!!!

Quote
Aaron Giles' Home Page
March 14, 2005
MAME Trademark Update


I know a bunch of folks have been itching to know what's going on with the whole MAME trademark issue. Well, with the help of several prominent friends, we consulted a trademark attorney and decided to see if David Foley was up to his word.

Last week, Nicola's application began showing up in the USPTO database. Once that happened, I contacted Mr. Foley and asked him to abandon his claim to the trademark, which you can see he did.

So, what does this all mean? First, it means that the MAME trademark is in the hands of the people who really ought to own it.

Second, it means you can all end your hate mail campaigns against Ultracade and David Foley. Comments here which attack either will be deleted and users will be banned. There's really no sense in yelling and screaming; let's just all be adults about the matter (I realize that it's hard for some in this crowd, but please try).

Third, however, it means that some responsibility comes along with owning the trademark. In order to use the trademark, we are going to have to set up some rules under which it can be used. This is likely going to come in the form of, simply, "You must request explicit permission to use the MAME trademark."

Of course, permission will be given to many legitimate uses (still have to ask, though!) But there is indeed a growing commercial sector that is abusing the MAME name to make claims that aren't true without violating the law ("Play 1000s of arcade games!" -- yeah right, show me your license for that), and quite frankly, many of the MAME team members are as against that as Mr. Foley is.

We'll be announcing more details shortly, but the most likely end result is going to be: if you want to use the MAME name, you've got to get rid of your illegal ROM links, your information on how to buy/download illegal ROMs, and your claims that anything you sell will let you play 100s or 1000s of games (unless you've legitimately licensed them).
http://www.aarongiles.com/index.html
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 15, 2005, 08:32:28 am
There's no need to twist the knife... isn't there a high road to be taken somewhere?

Boycotting everything to do with Foley is the high road.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on March 15, 2005, 08:43:36 am
There's no need to twist the knife... isn't there a high road to be taken somewhere?

Boycotting everything to do with Foley is the high road.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPoonga on March 15, 2005, 12:10:33 pm
www.aarongiles.com
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: MonitorGuru on March 15, 2005, 12:34:30 pm
Jumping into shark infested waters here, but I can't let this post go un-replied to:

I got my local CostCo to remove an Arcade Legends machine.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Shape D. on March 15, 2005, 12:57:22 pm
Jumping into shark infested waters here, but I can't let this post go un-replied to:

I got my local CostCo to remove an Arcade Legends machine.  I'm currently working on contacting "higher up" in that company to get them removed completely (or at least have no more orders placed).

I'm concerned here. Boycotting is one thing, even creating a boycott web site listing factual information is acceptable.

Without *complete details* of what "got my local CostCo to remove"... means, I think the above statement implies a line has been crossed and vigilante actions such as this are NO BETTER than what DF was doing to "competetors".

Someone's active "working on contacting 'higher up' ... to get them removed" implies UNLAWFUL RESTRAINT OF TRADE. Exactly what DF was attempting to do himself.

Two wrongs DO NOT make a right.   Boycott fine.  Comments and actions eluded to by similar comments to the above, I believe legally, cross the line from an individual consumers freedom of choice and illegal trade disruption. 

Fight fair... don't fight his way or you may just find yourself thrown into a lawsuit yourself, and further disruption to your gaming platform through legal issues.
If Walmart was selling something you didn't think they should be selling say "Home Abortion Kits". Would you boycot Walmart, or talk to them to try to get them to stop selling them.  Personally I would try to get them to stop selling them, and if they refused then I would boycot Walmart.

Sweet I totally just compared ultracade cabnets to home abortion kits.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 15, 2005, 01:12:50 pm
CostCo is a "membership" based retailer.  They encourage the members to give them feedback on the products they stock, what we would like to see and what we don't.  I spoke with the local store manager and he "suspended" the sale of the item in his store.  It never came back, so I'm assuming he did some research on what was happening.  I'm currently putting together a package to present to them (including all of Foley's statements/letters).  It's up to them to decide what they stock, but it's up to us to encourage them to use ethical manufacturers.  I'm not going to lie or threaten to cancel my membership (I like it too much).  I'm just going to present what information I have and give them the avenues (email/web sites) to pursue any further details they may need on their own.  I highly doubt they'll pull the corporate plug purely based on my points.  But I fully intend to "plant a seed" for them to think about.

FWIW: CostCo rules.  They have an incredible return policy on electronics.  If you are ever dissatisfied, bring it back.  I asked them about a digicam I bought and the guy said if 5 years from now I no longer like it, I can bring it back and exchange it for full credit.  He was quick to add that they discourage that kind of behaivior, but said that's how dedicated they are to ensure their members are happy.  And no, I'm not going to return it. :P
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: cholin on March 15, 2005, 02:12:40 pm
I love costco.  They have great prices on most of the things they sell because the way its run -- like a warehouse.  Let me tell you, I bought some steaks there and they were honestly the best steaks Ive ever had, not that this has anything to do with arcade machines :)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 15, 2005, 02:19:53 pm
Comparing Ultracade to home abortion kits... hahaha  ;D

Man I just shot coke out of my nose.

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: RayB on March 15, 2005, 03:26:26 pm
Where can I get a home abortion kit?
(ya never know!)  ;D


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: JoyMonkey on March 15, 2005, 03:46:59 pm
Comparing Ultracade to home abortion kits... hahaha  ;D

Man I just shot coke out of my nose.

-Goz

Never heard of people shooting coke out of their noses.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: rchadd on March 15, 2005, 07:53:26 pm
what the hell would costco care about recent issues regards ultracade and mame???

why get the arcade legends machine removed? its 100% legal product right?

I figure you just got labelled as being a "nutty customer"

maybe it would be better to get stores to boycott goods that are made with exploited child labor in the far east for pennies.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 16, 2005, 08:59:08 am
They care about what their members think about the products they carry.  If you see they sweat of toddlers there, let them know.  They'll do something about it.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: BackAgain on March 16, 2005, 06:32:01 pm
CrazyCooter has a valid point.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on March 16, 2005, 07:42:10 pm
CrazyCooter has a valid point.  I think you guys must not shop at Costco.  They are built on customer service, and they want your feedback on ANYTHING they carry in their store.

Why bother comparing Ultracade to the home abortion kit?  You don't have to compare it to anything.  If you don't like Ultracade, Costco wants to know why.  If it is a big enough problem (and apparently it is) then they will stop carrying it.

I'd rephrase that.  It sounds as if you wish to boycott CostCo.  It'd sound better if you changed "I think you guys must not shop at CostCo" to "It sounds as if you don't shop at CostCo or know their policies".

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 17, 2005, 12:32:26 am
Thanks for clearing that up.
I was a bit confused as well.. but now I get it  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on March 17, 2005, 01:51:33 am
I made a trip today on my lunch hour to the local Dave & Busters for a pint and some games. I was really surprised when I came accross 2 rows of redemption / arcade games made by Ultracade. On top of the redemption / arcade games there was 4 of the std Ultracade 86 game craptacular cabs.

I thought about talking to management and telling them about how Foley is a duche bag, but opted for the high road. Karma is a boom-a-rang and he will be screwed when it comes arround.

-Goz
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: IntruderAlert on March 17, 2005, 10:28:31 am
http://www.aarongiles.com/index.html

Quote
Aaron Giles' Home Page
March 16, 2005

Some basic answers

A lot of the worrying and questions on the previous post are silly. I'm closing down comments on that for now.

Answers to the obvious stuff:

1. You can discuss MAME all you want without putting a (tm) next to it. You'll notice that you don't have to put a (tm) next to Windows if you talk about it on a message board, now do you?

2. If you currently sell ROMs or ROM distribution services, you're already breaking the law. There is nothing new about the trademark apart from the fact that you can't use the name "MAME" to advertise your illegal services.

3. There is currently discussion going on around the MAME license. Getting the devs to agree on something like this is like herding cats, so it will take a while for some clarity to prevail there.

That's it for now. Go about your lives. Stop the hand wringing over what this all means. When official information becomes available, a lot of this will be made clear. Unfortunately this stuff takes time. Be patient.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 20, 2005, 11:37:48 pm
If anyone is wondering what Ultracade charges for ROM's (as a possible indicator for Foley's iROM service), I point you to this ebay posting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6156986509&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

This is a BRAND NEW ULTRACADE JUNGLE KING UPGRADE.  Add this all time favorite to your "Ultimate Arcade" machine!

Buy it now price is... $399.00!
He said before he would charge under $10, I guess we could safely assume he'll be somewhere between $10 & $300 for each title.::)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: SirPeale on March 21, 2005, 06:45:05 am
You can't go by what that auction is asking.  They *routinely* overprice everything they put on eBay.

They're located in a very high disposable income area of CT, and since the guy that owns the store can actually get the insane prices he's asking, he's not going to lower them anytime soon.  I was trying to work out a deal to get some empties and parts when one of his workers was trying to clear out one of his warehouses.  At first he was being decent with his prices, but then he saw that stuff was flying out, he changed his tune.  Suddenly empty Pac Man cabs were worth $300.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Chris on March 21, 2005, 08:43:21 am
Buy it now price is... $399.00!
He said before he would charge under $10, I guess we could safely assume he'll be somewhere between $10 & $300 for each title.::)
Apples and oranges. First, Ultracade isn't the seller here.  Second, he's selling Jungle King with a Commercial Use license, not a home use license.

HOWEVER... how can Ultracade legally sell a Jungle King pack at all?  Wasn't Jungle King pulled in favor of Jungle Hunt because of a lawsuit from the Tarzan copyright holders?

--Chris
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on March 21, 2005, 08:47:33 am
You can't go by what that auction is asking. They *routinely* overprice everything they put on eBay.

I was wondering what was up, I can pick up the whole game for $400.
Title: Ultracade and Visual Pinball licencing
Post by: ValamirCleaver on August 27, 2005, 12:42:36 am
Well it looks like that though he didn't get the MAME(TM) he was supposedly able to licence VP. Here's the relevant thread at VPF: VP has been sold? (http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35631) Let's hope for the best. I would suggest that anyone that David Foley attempted to shake down for kickbacks or had e-bay auction wrongly pulled post your personal firsthand experiences at VPF.

Tom
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: DrewKaree on August 27, 2005, 01:19:14 am
I'm wondering if there's some way to start a class-action suit against him since he's developing an obvious pattern of trying to shake down anyone he sets his sights on about whatever product he thinks he can make a fast quick buck off of.

He clearly has no interest in "preserving" or "saving" anything, as his motives are clearly making a profit from someone else's work that might not have sufficiently protected their work.  While there's no law against THAT, and I'd agree with THAT, he's going beyond reasonable-ness and stopping the sales of items he has no current legal right to stop. 

Poetic justice would have this lunkhead selling something he has no right to sell, and someone slaps such a huge suit on him that it forces him to go bankrupt.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: M3talhead on August 27, 2005, 06:14:00 am
Holy Thread-Resurrection Batman!  :o
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Bones on August 27, 2005, 07:40:39 am
Yeah but now the thread has been moved to EE so it will only attract the gutter level individuals of byoac.

Hey, look at this. My prediction has already to come true.  :o
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Tiger-Heli on August 27, 2005, 08:01:45 am
Yeah but now the thread has been moved to EE so it will only attract the gutter level individuals of byoac.

Hey, look at this. My prediction has already to come true.  :o
I read through the 6-page thread over at VPF.

On the surface, DaveyR is saying that the tables and VP will still be available in the usual places and that he is only licensing the use of VP and certain tables.

Of course, he is also putting his spin on the MAME trademark issue, so it's hard to take any of his comments at face value.

I have also been on VP (but not recently) long enough to remember some of the key players in the community, among them Destruk, PacDude, and Mr. Hyde and it appears that ALL of them are pretty solidly against the idea, which you can read a lot into.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: lokki on August 27, 2005, 12:46:24 pm
don't mean to defend foley but the short of it is this

1) He licencesed VP from the developers (The developer of VP agreed to this)
(He does not own VP he has the right to use it commercially.)

2) He is offering to pay designers of VP tables for use of their Tables.
3) He has licensed the rights for some commercial pinball tables
4) Not all Table designers want to license their tables.

As far as I can tell he has not threatened anyone, no auctions have been removed.


edit numbering


Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Tiger-Heli on August 27, 2005, 12:54:11 pm
5)  There is a big rift in the VP Community between people who want to cash in on their hard work with Ultracade, people who want nothing to do with him, and people who did 10% of the work on a table someone else submitted and wonder what their cut of the royalty is.  (Of course there was a rift three or so years ago over proprietary/locked tables and open source tables, so this isn't the first time).
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Harry Potter on August 27, 2005, 01:35:04 pm
Is Dave sticking his fingers into someone else's pie again?
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on August 27, 2005, 09:44:34 pm
I posted over there.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on August 27, 2005, 10:21:07 pm

So go file a lawsuit already.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on August 27, 2005, 11:09:23 pm
Loss of sales.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on August 27, 2005, 11:16:57 pm
I just don't see the loss of sales to anyone involved amounting to enough to be worth going to court over (even adding everyone who got auctions yanked into a class-action suit)

As much as I'd love to see Foley have to face some consequences to his illegal grab of MAME and the MAME logo, I just don't see it happening. Going to court in this case just doesn't make good business sense (it'll cost far more than you could ever hope to recover)

Kevin
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Crazy Cooter on August 27, 2005, 11:37:44 pm
It's a civil proceeding.  You don't have to have a lawyer.

This is pretty cut-n-dry.  If you have sales records, you have a case.  It's just a matter of finding out if you can do it in your state or his.  "Crimes" via the internet I believe are filed where the offense occured, not where they originated.  I think this too was passed just for cases like this.  Being across state lines makes it a bigger deal.

I know for judgements regarding late payments after you quit a job they give 150% of the wage to "penalize" the offender (in MN).  I don't know how it works for cases like this.  I've sat with several lawyers in my time and they always will "hear your case" and give you an idea if they should help you or if you could do it yourself.  I'm only afraid of them when they're not sitting at my table. ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Tiger-Heli on August 29, 2005, 09:31:08 am
CC,

You need to respond to Editor's comments in the VPF thread.

Off-Topic -

As much as I hate to admit it, UC's pinball controller looks pretty cool:
http://www.hyperware.com/pub/pl/flipper.jpg
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on August 29, 2005, 09:31:33 am
I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same.  ;D
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Tiger-Heli on August 29, 2005, 09:37:16 am
I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same.  ;D
Typically, wrongful birth lawsuits occur when the mother tries to have an abortion and the baby survives.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Goz on August 29, 2005, 09:55:37 am
I read the other day that a "Wrongful birth" lawsuit was filed because a woman had a healthy baby born because the mother didn't know she was pregnant. I thought it was far fetched, but maybe Mr. Foleys parents should do the same.  ;D
Typically, wrongful birth lawsuits occur when the mother tries to have an abortion and the baby survives.

Not an attempt to derail but here's the  article (http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=local&id=3376053). The original comment is a joke BTW.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: arcader_1984 on January 06, 2006, 06:53:45 pm
Can I ask what all the hoopla is all about, the UC hard drive is nothing difficult at all to figure out, its simply masking its FAT table to hide the files, all that was needed was a writing a very simple sector scanner to locate the beginning and end of each of the files (which for whatever reason don't start until sector 38535672 and are less then 100mb's total in that 40gb hd, I extracted out 5 executable files - a 64K file called jver.exe, then a 934K and 3 large files - 15mb's, 20mb's and 26mb's.    They are located in the EXE_DIR and then in the WAV_DIR are all of the wav files for the sound effects for the menu (I found 16 seperate wav files).

Oh and BTW - in the beginning of the drive is the darnedest thing - what appears to be a Fat12 floppy image in the beginning of the HD (or at least on first pass, that's what it looks like) with the jboot (I wonder if it is the same as Scott Bradford's Jdyne Technologies Jboot protection software), then some other files like jtpboot and sappboot, I also found sapphire drivers load scripting commands.

Now, I haven't gotten all of the EXE's running  - yet, but an ascii sector view of the 15mb exe turned up something interesting... the Atari games appear to actually be from Atari Arcade Hits Vol 1 and Vol2 as I found ascii text referring to them and (c) Infogrames, so that's rather interesting.   I will say this much, I see no signs whatsoever of MAME of any kind or iteration at all.   Now jboot (if it is in fact the same as the jdyne version and the Atari arcade hits - they all use Win32 API's and DirectX, so the next question to be answered is, does the joshua mbr bootloader run some kind of DOS with win32 APIs and then, what about Directx?    Drive loads amazingly fast, so its rather interesting to see in more detail just what these remaining exe's actually are and what they are up to.

Please DO NOT email me to ask for the files, this was simply an exercise of fun to see what was on the drive, I've given pretty much everything needed to know about the drive and what you'd have to do on your own to access its contents, and that is all I can give anyone is information, the code from the drive is not something that can or will be released.   I know that no one here seems to be a fan of ultracade (the signature pic's of poo on the ultracade equipment kind of gives it away) but in all fairness, to post the drives contents publicly would be far worse then I think anything that ultracade may have done against the mame groups.


Arcade On !





Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Kremmit on January 07, 2006, 12:13:04 am
Holy Thread-Resurrection Batman!  :o
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: squirrellydw on December 10, 2006, 09:25:44 pm
So what was the out come of this??  Did Ultracrap win, lose or is it still going on??
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: GoPodular.com on December 10, 2006, 10:20:45 pm
http://mamedev.org/trademark.html (http://mamedev.org/trademark.html)

Quote


Recently, there has been some confusion as a third party attempted to register the name "MAME" as a trademark. This issue has been resolved. Nicola Salmoria has filed to trademark MAME. The third party who originally filed for the trademark has abandoned their claim.

What does this mean? Well, it certainly doesn't mean the completely unchecked freedom to do whatever you want with the name MAME. If you want to use it, you should follow the guidelines below and then ask permission to do so.

First, you should examine the new MAME license, under which it is prohibited to sell or use MAME commercially.

With the trademark, this goes one step further.
Products or services that wish to use the name MAME or a derivative thereof must obtain explicit permission from the trademark owner (Nicola) to do so in all cases.

In most cases, if a product or service has a legitimate use, abides by the MAME license, and adheres to the spirit of MAME and the guidelines expressed in the About MAME section, obtaining permission should not be difficult. If you believe you have a legitimate need to use the MAME name, please contact the team using the contact form to request permission.

If you are interested in helping stamp out unauthorized use of the trademark, use the contact form to report abuses.

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on December 11, 2006, 07:56:34 am
Bottom line:


All is right in the world. Happy Holidays...
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: BobA on December 11, 2006, 10:24:11 am
There is justice in this world.   :cheers:

Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: quarterback on December 11, 2006, 12:41:55 pm
  • David Foley is out of the biz (fired by GlobalVR about a month ago)

Wow.  There's some news I wasn't aware of.
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: KevSteele on December 11, 2006, 03:40:52 pm
  • David Foley is out of the biz (fired by GlobalVR about a month ago)

Wow.  There's some news I wasn't aware of.

Yeah, he was let go a few weeks before this year's PinExpo, where he was scheduled to do a presentation on the new UltraPin, based on PinMAME/Visual Pinball.

They cancelled the presenation, but GlobalVR still sent some UltraPins for the show. Nice product, overall, and now 100% David Foley Free.  ;)
Title: Re: Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark
Post by: Thenasty on December 11, 2006, 04:39:13 pm
hey Foley, if you are lurking here still, remember what I've been telling you about some job openings ?




McDonalds still has some opening, just don't trademark the big Yellow "M" and you should be fine.    :applaud: