Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Danny R on February 10, 2005, 11:56:37 am
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I have an idea for a swapable 4/8 way rotary joystick, but that has modifications which also allows the 4 way to rotate into Q-bert mode, and a rotary feature to be locked on or off. Add to this the option of swappable grips allowing different handles, even including topfire/tron style buttons if needed.
Unfortunately the idea is at best is in my head currently, but I could probably get it into a CAD program.
But what then? How does one go about getting something like this actually made? I don't have access to a machine shop where I could play around with the idea to even see if my idea has merit.
Would such an idea be worth even patenting, or has it been done before?
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I know it sound kind of lame but if I had an idea like that but no way to implement it. I'd take one for the team and send it to one of the manufacturers that frequents these boards.
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I know it sound kind of lame but if I had an idea like that but no way to implement it. I'd take one for the team and send it to one of the manufacturers that frequents these boards.
The only one that could do what your looking to do would be Randy and GroovyGameGear. But he doesn't make a rotary joystick.
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The "rotating for Q*bert" part is pointless.
If you have a rotating restrictor plate, like the other currently available sticks, Q*bert plays exactly the way it should in 8-way mode, if you modify the inputs for Q*bert, in MAME, to only accept the diagonals.
If you rotate the restrictor to 4-way mode, and then rotate the entire stick 45 degrees, you have exactly the same restrictor in exactly the same orientation as when it's in 8-way mode.
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The "rotating for Q*bert" part is pointless.
If you have a rotating restrictor plate, like the other currently available sticks, Q*bert plays exactly the way it should in 8-way mode, if you modify the inputs for Q*bert, in MAME, to only accept the diagonals.
Never thought of that! Going to try tonight!
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my gosh (edited...), i would have never thought of that either...
so now that i'm going to go and do that to my controls, what other games play at 45 degrees so i can change them all to accept the 8 way diagonals?
sorry about posting off subject, but you do have a good idea. you should try talking to 1up about manufacturing things, he might be able to mentor you and help you on your path...also, there was someone else who was making custom buttons...while buttons are very simple, he might have some pointers for you too. talking to randy or slikstik might be the best way to go though. create some plans and offer it to one of them for some amount of cash and your name on it. then you could show it off and be able to prove it and still get compensated financially for it.
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If you rotate the restrictor to 4-way mode, and then rotate the entire stick 45 degrees, you have exactly the same restrictor in exactly the same orientation as when it's in 8-way mode.
Yeah, I know this.
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doesnt the e-stick rotate?
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Never looked at the e-stick. Does it rotate in a single motion, or do you have to go into the control panel to do so? In any case, its not rotary.
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Never looked at the e-stick. Does it rotate in a single motion, or do you have to go into the control panel to do so? In any case, its not rotary.
Or you could just do this
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20018.0.html
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Yup, that brilliant idea is what got me thinking about this in the first place, as I thought there might be demand for a bit sturdier design that could be locked on and off - indeed, could even be used as a spinner with the swappable handle.
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QBert works just fine for me with comps. Just remap the keys.
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If you rotate the restrictor to 4-way mode, and then rotate the entire stick 45 degrees, you have exactly the same restrictor in exactly the same orientation as when it's in 8-way mode.
Yeah, I know this. But I know a lot of the control panels I've seen don't allow easy rotation of the stick that 45 degrees once the 4 way mode is in. Or they require putting a new restrictor plate into place. Most of these options require diving into the control panel to make the change. What I envision is a one step change simular to how the T-stick plus works... changing the plates from the top of the panel.
And of course playing in 8 way mode works as well, but you can play that way with games like pacman too. People like having that restrictor plate in place at the right angle to give the right feel. I'm not proposing anything really revolutionary, but I've never seen a stick that allow easy swapping between regular and q-bert 4 way modes without manually putting in a restrictor plate or moving the joystick. This is why I see so many boards out there actually have a rotated 4 way somewhere on the panel.
What I envision is a one step change simular to how the T-stick plus works... changing the plates from the top of the panel.
He's talking about using the T-stick (or the Prodigy). When the restrictor is in 8-way position, it is in the proper Q-bert diagonal shape, for the correct feel.
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| | 8-way shape restrictor
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| | Q-Bert 4-way shape restrictor
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See the difference?
You just re-assign the keys in Mame for Q-Bert and Congo Bongo so to use the diagonals instead of the cardinal directions. I dunno why people have so much trouble wraping their heads around this.
edit- spelling
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just have dedicated 4-way and get the 360 joystick and add diagonal leaf swicth.
Here is the mode
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=19200
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The "rotating for Q*bert" part is pointless.
If you have a rotating restrictor plate, like the other currently available sticks, Q*bert plays exactly the way it should in 8-way mode, if you modify the inputs for Q*bert, in MAME, to only accept the diagonals.
If you rotate the restrictor to 4-way mode, and then rotate the entire stick 45 degrees, you have exactly the same restrictor in exactly the same orientation as when it's in 8-way mode.
This is true and I have tried it, and it works, but without diamond shaped restrictor plate, it's like trying to play pacman with an 8-way joystick it's not easy. I can't understand why a lot of people think it's ok to play q-bert with an 8-way, but it's not ok to play pac man with an 8-way... Both need a 'real' 4 way joystick with the q-bert 4-way rotated 45 degrees, IMHO of course.
Note: By 'real' 4-way I mean a square (or diamond depending on how you look at it) restrictor (of some kind) in place so you cannot hit diagonals...
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This is true and I have tried it, and it works, but without diamond shaped restrictor plate, it's like trying to play pacman with an 8-way joystick it's not easy.
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First off, I never said a thing about Pac-Man, just Q-bert and Congo Bongo. I would never argue that it's ok to just configure MAME to ignore the diagonals and play with an 8-way for Pac Man, or any regular 4-way game. Like you said, you need the diamond restrictor for the right feel. So let's not have any more of that. :angel:
The feel of a square restrictor is the same, no matter whether it's a square on an 8-way, or a 4-way. I can see your point about the larger dead zone when playing Q-bert with an 8-way mapped to diagonals. I wouldn't want to try the diagonal trick with a Happ Super, for instance, because of the big dead zone that would come from the long throw on that stick. But I was referring specifically to the T-Stick+, which has a super short throw. That means that the distance between "UP+LEFT" and "UP+RIGHT" is still pretty darn small, meaning a really, really small dead zone in the "UP" position. I'd wager that the dead zone on a Ms. Pac/Galaga Reunion dedicated 4-way mounted diagonally is as big or bigger than the one on a T-Stick+.
All of that said, I wouldn't cry if somebody made a stick that switched the way you describe. ;) I'm a total controller nut, and I keep wating for somebody to make the perfect all-in-one, too. But until they do, the T-Stick trick is worth considering.
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I've got my T-stik right here, and I couldn't measure the difference between rotated 4-way mode, and regular 8-way mode without calipers and ALOT of patience.
The same restrictor that guides you to the single switch in rotated 4-way mode, guides you to BOTH switches in regular 8-way mode.
I don't know of anybody that plays Q*bert that doesn't JAM the stick all the way to the restrictor plate.
As a matter of fact, my T-stik WILL hit diagonals in 4-way mode--causing exactly the same dead spot (or at least an immeasurably small difference in the size of it) that you get in 8-way mode.
Likewise, there is a dead spot on Wico 4-ways, unless you KEEP them absolutely PERFECTLY adjusted.
Also, this is an entirely different argument than the "Pacman in 8-way mode" argument.
In Pacman you have HUGE dead spots in 8-way mode because the restrictor isn't GUIDING you to the spot you need to be.
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For those still having problems grasping what I'm talking about on how to set this up, here are step-by-step instructions
Go to the "Inputs for this game" menu, click on each of the following, and then press BOTH directions you want mapped to that function.
Up=Up AND Right
Right=Right AND Down
Down=Down AND Left
Left=Left AND Up
Once you have these set, you have to push UP-RIGHT on the stick to send an Up signal to the game, etc...
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Also, this is an entirely different argument than the "Pacman in 8-way mode" argument.
In Pacman you have HUGE dead spots in 8-way mode because the restrictor isn't GUIDING you to the spot you need to be.
The restrictor does help to guide you into the right spot, but it is mainly there to keep you from hitting diagonals when moving from one direction to another, while allowing you to keep contact with one --and only one-- switch at all times. What applies in Pac-Man applies in Q*bert too, just rotated 45 degrees. ;)
Also, IMHO, the t-stick plus is far from an ideal 4-way. I had installed one for the office Ms. Pac-Man tournament, and EVERYONE had problems with it. The almost non-existant throw distance makes it very hard to tell clearly in which direction you are pushing when the heat is on. I switched the t-stick out for a J-stick balltop, and the high score went from 100,000 to over 180,000! The normal throw and light spring-action is more evocative of an old leaf-spring stick, so me likey.
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What applies in Pac-Man applies in Q*bert too, just rotated 45 degrees. ;)
Exactly, an 8-way rotated 45 degrees would work fine for Pacman if you changed the inputs to accept diagonals only.
That said, I would still prefer my Wicos for 4-way games, but the tradeoff for the "one switch, and only one switch", and "longer throw than the T-stik" is a larger deadspot.
This hasn't ever been an issue to me because the "lag" as the controller passes through the deadspot is so short that you are ON the direction you want to be by the time the computer is ready to allow you to go that way.
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What applies in Pac-Man applies in Q*bert too, just rotated 45 degrees.
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No it won't. I don't know what 8-ways you have, but my 8-ways have no square restrictor in them at all making any 4-way game (rotated 45 degrees or not) impossible to play "properly".
We're talking about the T-stick+, as stated numerous times. The T-stick+ DOES have a square restrictor. If you're using an 8-way with a round restrictor, then this trick will not work for you, and 4-way games will play badly, just like you say.
I cannot for the life of me understand how hitting the diagonals on an 8way is any better than hitting the straights on ANY game designed to use a 4-way (square restricted) controller...
It doesn't matter to the game whether you're hitting diagonals or not. If you configure MAME to watch for diagonals coming from your controls, then send 4-way signals to the emulation, then your game will play exactly as if you were using a 4-way, even though you're not. That takes care of the electrical portion.
But the feel is the important issue. If you're using a rotated 4-way, you've got a square restrictor. If you're using a T-stick+, you've got a SQUARE RESTRICTOR! When you push the stick into the corner of the square, it feels the same to your hand whether you hit one switch or two.
If it PLAYS the same, and it FEELS the same...
AND it isn't just up-right it could be right-up and if you don't hit them in the right sequence you are hosed, q-bert will not move.
When you push a square restricted stick into the corner, you don't hit up and right in sequence, you hit them at the same time! It's not up, THEN right.. It's up AND right at the same time. So Q-bert will move just fine.
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I should point out, I've stated on this board repeatedly that I've always preferred Wico leafs. I'm not saying that this is the best method out there, and everybody that doesn't like it is wrong. In point of fact, I'm planning a fully modular setup, and probably will have a rotated 4-way module for it. Depending on your choice of sticks, this solution may not work worth a hoot for you. This solution is especially intended for people using the T-Stick+, who want to avoid the Frankenpanel look. Especially if they intend to have only one control panel. But every time the rotated 4-way discussion comes up, I keep seeing NoOne=NBA post this solution, and I keep seeing folks just not get it. I'm just trying to help get the message across, for the benefit of the noobs reading this and trying to decide which sticks to buy, and how to lay out their panel. This is an OPTION, folks!
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I should point out, I've stated on this board repeatedly that I've always preferred Wico leafs.
Me too.
I'm not saying that this is the best method out there, and everybody that doesn't like it is wrong.
Me either.
I'm saying that unless you REALLY, REALLY like Q*bert or Congo Bongo, having a dedicated, rotated 4-way is a waste of real estate on your CP.
In point of fact, I'm planning a fully modular setup, and probably will have a rotated 4-way module for it.
I BOUGHT an extra Wico for a 45 module, but opted not to mount it because the T-stik option was very playable.
Is it IDEAL? NO.
Is it GOOD? YES.
Depending on your choice of sticks, this solution may not work worth a hoot for you.
It's all a matter of preference.
This system will work WELL on any square restrictor stick, but the sloppier the stick gets, the worse it works.
It works VERY well on a T-stik, and FAIRLY well on a Comp.
It will even WORK on a round restrictor stick--provided that it is a LEAF stick, and you set the leafs so that they contact immediately.
If the leafs contact immediately, it is almost impossible to NOT hit a diagonal.
But every time the rotated 4-way discussion comes up, I keep seeing NoOne=NBA post this solution, and I keep seeing folks just not get it.
I think I'm done trying.
I've posted it enough times that people can find it if they want.
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As a side note, I checked my Pac Stick today.
It hits diagonals on 3 of the 4 sides, and has a big honking dead spot on the 4th.
Should I put that (rotated of course) into a module, and try it for Q*bert?
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hehe... thread really went on its own journey there.
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Well, lets put it this way:
To make ONE copy of something you design, will cost you a bundle. The only way to regain those costs are to sell off several products. If for example you make 300, you can sell them for like $30 each (example) whereas if you make 200, they will cost $35 each, see. If you make one, you will need to buy parts, get a company, and then they need to make molds, fill them with metal to create a template, copy the template, then fill that to make the product. Then comes assembly. If you can actually make ONE of these for less that like $500 ill be surprised.
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Oops, sorry about the threadjack there. Have you looked at emachineshop.com?
On the other hand, it might be best to go to a metal fabrication / welding / machine shop in your area and talk to them about it. A small, independent shop would probably be best.. you know, the kind of place where Bubba will crank out a few one-off parts by hand if you pay in cash. The big, commerical shops will probably want to hit you with some outrageous tooling costs to set up their CNC machines.
Remember, the fewer parts, the cheaper. The more parts that are "flat", the cheaper. Every bend, every cut, every curve costs.
Oh, and have a look at these, may be some design ideas in 'em:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,21572.0.html
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Oh, another thing, if you specifically want one, you would be best buying several seperate joysticks off Ebay and taking them apart. This way, you have the most of the stick done. Then, to manufacture a few small resistors or whatever custom pieces, it is not NEARLY as much.
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Have you looked at emachineshop.com?
Ah, now that is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to find.
Is there a simular place that does circuit boards?
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Search around for Custom PCB on google and it will list tons of companies. I believe theres one where if you order 5 boards, theyre $13 each...
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I have a Crazy Joystick Idea Come to me lately,Someone made a comment on one of my Threads about a Clear Joystick that you could put an LED in... But I have no Idea where/who would build a Topper like that?
((the shaft would have to be hollow thou, and the handle clear))
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I have a Crazy Joystick Idea Come to me lately,Someone made a comment on one of my Threads about a Clear Joystick that you could put an LED in... But I have no Idea where/who would build a Topper like that?
((the shaft would have to be hollow thou, and the handle clear))
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,31758.0.html
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There's also the home-made lit balltop made by that guy with the gnome avatar.... (I can't find the thread!!)
???
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There's also the home-made lit balltop made by that guy with the gnome avatar.... (I can't find the thread!!)
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That was johnnysmith's CAF arcade (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,21886.40.html).
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There's another one where the guy used one of those red flashing balls meant to go on dog collars...