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Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: jbox on January 24, 2005, 09:03:56 pm

Title: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: jbox on January 24, 2005, 09:03:56 pm

Just a quick question:

Is there a huge difference between using a counter-sink drill bit and triangular head screws, as opposed to just double-drilling a hole (thin through, thick just a few cms) and then using a square headed screw.

I can't believe getting a perfect triangular match adds any real difference to the grip, compared to actually getting some good wood and a good thread.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: Tailgunner on January 24, 2005, 09:18:50 pm

Not a huge difference. It's more of a speed/ease of assembly thing,  as using counter sunk screws eliminates the extra drilling step.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: NoOne=NBA= on January 24, 2005, 09:40:18 pm

Unless you plan to use a forstner bit, the bottom of the hole isn't going to be flat anyway.
A regular bevel tipped drill bit is going to leave a 45 at the bottom of the hole.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: mjrsting on January 24, 2005, 10:07:39 pm

Kinda depends on the material you're using.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: rockhopper on January 24, 2005, 10:48:02 pm

I counter-bored (double drilled) most of the holes in my mdf cab, and it is rock solid.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: DrewKaree on January 25, 2005, 06:33:37 pm

Something that happens all too frequently when not using a countersink bit is described in detail, although the effort when taking into account all the screws you are going to put in this machine was WAY glossed over, and no one else commented on, was stated here:

Quote from: mjrsting on January 24, 2005, 10:07:39 pm

I got about the same results, though without the coutersink hole, it did "frey" the edges a bit.  My solution for that was to put the screw partially in, cut off the frey with a utility knife blade, and then finish screwing it in and sink the head.  I puttied over the screw head and it all was good.  Saved a lot of time vs. using a countersink bit.

Now, color me ignorant here, but screwing in the screw partially, cutting off the frayed crap that will happen, and not gouging out crap you DON'T need to be taking off, and then completing the screwing in of the thing seems to be more work than using a countersink bit. 

Part of that "ignorance" probably comes from thinking you are using the right tool for the job.  I'll provide you with a picture for this, as it seems you spent money on a tool that works fine, but if you had spent a few more bucks, would have gotten you the tool that is SPECIFIC for your use, and PERFECT in its job of saving you time and giving you a neater appearance.

The thing you want it this here:
(http://www.rockler.com/rockler/images/69045-steps.gif)

If that one's too expensive, Home Depot will sell one of several quick-change countersink/screwdriver sets, and all you have to do is buy the screw tip you need and swap it out if the standard #2 phillips bit isn't what you want.  They'll sell either a DeWalt, Ryobi, Bosch, or Milwaukee brand, or perhaps all of 'em at once.  This thing is EXACTLY what you want, and will eliminate you sittingthere with a friggen utility knife cutting wood by hand, when you should be doing it with *insert Tim "The Toolman" Taylor voice* - MORE POWER!

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: GameOver on January 25, 2005, 07:27:59 pm

I double drilled, not as bad/time consuming as it sounds if you work smart.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: Mameotron on January 25, 2005, 08:43:18 pm

Or, you could drill your pilot holes and countersink... (Toolman voice) AT THE SAME TIME!! :o :o

http://www.grizzly.com/products/item.cfm?itemnumber=G2570

(lots of manly grunting) :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: DrewKaree on January 25, 2005, 09:50:23 pm

Here you go.  An image of the version you can pick up at HomeDepot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, Menards, or whatever home improvement store is near you.  I even found a UK example, so you folks aren't off the hook here.  THIS is the cheaper version of the Insty-Bit system I showed above - should run you $6-13, depending on the manufacturer and the included screwdirver tips.  The Bosch version at Home Depot includes 2 different straight bits, 3 different phillips bits, and 4 square bits.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004RH23.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

This SHOULD be the standard for our hobby.....you can change from drilling the pilot hole w/countersink to driving the screw in less than 5 seconds flat.  Now STOP all this nonsense about using two drill bits!

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: GameOver on January 25, 2005, 10:14:26 pm

 8)Oh good...pictures!

Hear ye...hear ye!  Let it be known that standard 2.4.6a of the cab builders association of da wurld will from here on out be known as the DK 5.0 standard.  Simply stated, if you use the proper tools & can sink & counter sink a screw into a cab in under 5 secs, you've DK'd it.

I got one of those counter sink jobbers - it broke on the first hole!  Guess it was a bad batch, or maybe I put it onj backwards.  2 drill bits after that.  Besides, the brief intermission while changing bits gives you opportunities

1)  Partake in your favorite beverage
2)  light up a smoke (I've since quit, but still an option)
3)  yell at the dog
4)  take a johnny break
5)  partake in your favorite beverage

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: Mameotron on January 25, 2005, 10:22:34 pm

Ahh, Drew, I didn't look closely at your example.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: zvar on January 25, 2005, 10:50:18 pm

I'll have to agree with Drew on the DeWalt (or similar) type of drill bit.  I have one and it's used probably 90% of the time in my drill
Well worth the money not just for your cab, but to have around the home.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: DrewKaree on January 25, 2005, 11:08:03 pm

Quote from: Mameotron on January 25, 2005, 10:22:34 pm

(EXCESSIVE MANLY GRUNTING) (We need a smiley for that -  Got one, Drew???)

How 'bout dis?

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: DrewKaree on January 25, 2005, 11:16:09 pm

Quote from: GameOver on January 25, 2005, 10:14:26 pm

Hear ye...hear ye!  Let it be known that standard 2.4.6a of the cab builders association of da wurld will from here on out be known as the DK 5.0 standard.  Simply stated, if you use the proper tools & can sink & counter sink a screw into a cab in under 5 secs, you've DK'd it.

So if you mess it up, you've DK'd it up good and proper!  ;D  It works either way!  Me likey!

Quote

I got one of those counter sink jobbers - it broke on the first hole!  Guess it was a bad batch, or maybe I put it onj backwards.  2 drill bits after that.  Besides, the brief intermission while changing bits gives you opportunities

Happens once in a while, usually when I'm trying to use the drill bit extended farther out than it should be, or when exerting excessive side force.  It's a bit more "forward" mounted than it would normally be when chucked straight into your drill, so the forces required to snap it are a bit less, but swapping out the original bit with a brad-point bit works better and seems to require less effort.

The Insty-Bit set is the improvement on the DeWalt set, but it's also a bit pricier, and not necessary for this application, but happens to be even MORE handy than the DeWalt - more tips/bits and specializations in those areas too.

Title: Re: Counter-sink v.s. double drilling.
Post by: jbox on January 26, 2005, 12:02:16 am

Hmmmm, for context my question wasn't really about time. And my cab is a 2nd hand Asteroids, which is only missing a control panel. Mostly I just hate using non-square bolts and screws because I always find them harder to deal with.

Thanks for all the feedback though.