Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Marvincade on October 25, 2004, 12:02:51 am
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I have some general questions for the arcade folks out-there.
I have a flight yoke from Return of the Jedi, and I brought it to an aircraft parts manufacturing company located in Phoenix. I asked the president of the company approximately how much would it cost to manufacture the yoke? Well his response was approximately 200 bucks. There is some reduction of price with an ecomomy of scale, i.e. make alot of 'em.
So the questions are, is that a competitive price, is there something better out there, is there any interest in this sort of product?
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That include all wiring and pots and such? If so I think you would have a market.
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Well it is supply and demand.
A nice yoke brings $250 today because the supply is limited.
Bring brand new $250 yokes into the picture and they will sell great at first. But in the long haul the new ones will devalue the used ones, which will make them more affordable and thus you may have a hard time selling out a good sized run at a profitable price.
I have seen this with repro artwork. There was so much Donkey Kong artwork made that they sell it for $10 a side now when it used to be $60 a side. The supply outstripped the demand, and thus the price plummeted.
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When I talked to the president he said the wiring, pots, button were cheap and easy. The metal cast parts, springs, mechanical component were the pricey end of things.
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Yeah I just wanted to make sure it was a 100% repro.
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It could possibly be made to look like the old. I am personally not sure of the legal claims Atari might have on an exact reproduction. That may kill the idea entirely. I should say I got a tour of the company which was pretty cool. They make the flight yoke for the Apache helicopter, among other things. The president was pushing for new and improved but he did say an exact repro could be done.
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Atari as an arcade entity doesn't really exist. I wouldn't worry about them coming after your yoke repro, they haven't come after any OTHER repro makers, including the ones bootlegging their games, so your yoke should be quite safe.
You would be best to do an EXACT copy of the Star Wars one, that way classic collectors and mamers both would buy them.
No matter which design you select, might I suggest getting yoke overlays made so prospective buyers can order an overlay with their yoke?
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Unfortunately the whole enterprise is somewhat risky. If I wanted to build 100 units at $200 a shot, that is $20K. I do not have any thing close to $20K, so the there must be a demand or it is not worth it. I love arcade gaming but getting stuck with 50 SW yokes in my basement would not be funny.
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You might want to simply hook up one of the arcade repro companies with the contact info and have them do it.
Or, you can take pre-orders and not have them built until you get 100 pre-orders.
This is something that should probably be done by Oscar or Slickstick or Andy or someone already in the business.
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I think if you get a nice working prototype manufactured... take some nice pics from all angles... You will get many orders for the units.
Many Starwars cabs are still out there that could use a new yoke... as well as so many mame'rs that have played starwars in the arcade and want a perfect yoke.
The only thing Id do is to have all the buttons seperately wired. That way, you'd be able to have 4 buttons instead of 2. Arcade installers could just wire the extra's together.
Once you get the website up... then start taking pre-orders. If for some reason you can not get the stuff produced... just refund the pre-order.
As for the comment about 'Oscar or Slickstick or Andy' doing this... well that is not really nessessary.
Oscar had not shown much interest in making the yokes... or if memmory serves right... didnt attempt due to high costs. This is a valid reason... however... If anyone can effeciently and effectively build a flight yoke...its a yoke manufacturist! Nice call. :)
You may need to get a loan to start the process though. And it couldnt hurt to get help from various sources of information.
Btw - he said arround 200$... but at what quantity? Make sure low quantities will stay the same costs...as well as if high quantities are able to be realized.
Obviously, you should go to other manufacturers to ask for comparison pricing quotes. Quality is not compromisable though.
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Actually all 4 inputs are wired separate, even for the arcade games. Star Wars uses all 4 for the same THING but they are 4 different buttons.
I actually had every style yoke in my game room at the same time once. (Star Wars, Hydra, Road Blasters, Stun Runner), and I STILL own 3 yoke games.
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From my research, that's a fair price. The question is what you'd want for a profit on top of it. Happ would likely sell them for twice that, which explains why they don't offer a repro XY yoke. ;) Still you have to make a reasonable profit to justify bothering with the whole project.
The make or brake part will be the grips, as being die castings you'd need to have molds machined to repro them. Figure about a $5000 investment before you see a set of grips. :o
Honestly, I'd start with selling replacement parts for existing yokes and work up to actual yoke production if the demand is there. For instance, a good number of existing yokes could use new springs, gearsets, and bumpstops. If you started by having those pieces made, you might very well cover their cost of production without ever selling a yoke. You could use such a system to pay for the parts needed to build your yokes, or you could use it to pay to have other parts made.
One downside to the parts first method, with parts available quite a few more yokes will appear out of people's junk bins. This would likely drive the price back down to where a new $200 yoke wouldn't be a big seller. Then again, if half of the parts in your yoke cost you nothing, you could lower the price of the complete yokes to be competitive.
my 2 cents...
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Actually the yoke rebuild kits were just reproed again. I saw the announcement on RGVAC a couple days ago. Exactly the parts you just mentioned.
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You might also want to look at similar yokes.
Hydras are very different mechanically... Play different also.. So not really a choice.
But isn't a stunrunner very similar? I dont' have one so I couldn't tell you for sure... but you might find that you can get starwars and stunrunner repos with very little different.
This might be the difference between making it profitable and having an extra 50 units laying around for years.
btw, if you could get them sold for 200 bucks and have them feel like new originals... I bet you could get 100 preorders right off the bat. If its close, you might be able to sell them.
basically make sure that you get a demo version and play them next to an original... People here are picky.
Last...
Talk to Oscar about your buisness model. I have in the past. But this is a VERY specific market. You might be able to compare it to his DOT spinner. Expensive and only really useful in a few games.. Hes great and I"m sure he would talk to you for a bit about what to watch out for....
but again... 100 preorders and you don't have to worry about keeping them around..
and last... (probably)... Make sure to order 20 extras and charge extra. Make sure that the profits from the extras can finance the next ones (in whatever denominations you want) so if you decide to continue you can... and don't expect to sell the extras as fast as the first 100 or so.
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I owned both Star Wars yokes and Hydra ones and I thought they felt almost identical, although they were built different. I do agree that Star Wars is the one to copy not Hydra, no one cares about Hydra.
The Stun Runner yoke only goes up, not down.
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Atari as an arcade entity doesn't really exist. I wouldn't worry about them coming after your yoke repro, they haven't come after any OTHER repro makers, including the ones bootlegging their games, so your yoke should be quite safe
They sure as hell HAVE gone after people using their IP. Go to Atariage.com and look at the havoc Infogrames has wreaked on the console homebrew scene.
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The hydra controllers scales the y axis because of the design. The center portion of the Y Axis has more accuracy... So jumping to look up in starwars takes a bit to get used to...
Then the hydra uses different springs... and has a center area that I thought was different then a true starwars controller... but I don't have one to sit next to my hydra to compare..
Last..
If you could limit the down easily in your design for a stunrunners controller and use the different grips.. Then you would be able to sell it... But I'm not sure if they are the only differences...
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Tailgunner's comment on the cost of an exact grip mold is correct. That is something I forgot in my conversion with the president of the company. I think that is why he was pushing for a new and improved instead of exact reproduction.
The reason I visited this company was because my mom knows the president, through her work with the company. I had just finished restoring my broken yoke (new pots, switches, and gears) and converted it to a PC flight yoke. The president was not too impressed with the design or details of the yoke, it was just old hat to him, all business on his end of things. It was luck that these guys actually build real flight yokes. Anyway the opportunity was there to visit and show off the yoke so I did.
I must say that I have been playing flight sim type games with this yoke and the control is pretty impressive. This is where I am coming from hobby wise.
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Atari as an arcade entity doesn't really exist. I wouldn't worry about them coming after your yoke repro, they haven't come after any OTHER repro makers, including the ones bootlegging their games, so your yoke should be quite safe
They sure as hell HAVE gone after people using their IP. Go to Atariage.com and look at the havoc Infogrames has wreaked on the console homebrew scene.
A long time ago, Atari was split up into Atari Coin Op and the Atari that made the home consoles and computers. Same name, diff companies. Infogrames bought the console/computer side and I believe Williams/Midway swallowed up Atari Coin op.
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The Atari yokes are modeled off the gunnery controls of Bradley fighting vehicles, so I don't think they would have a trademark or patent on the design, as long as they were shipped without art.
Does anyone with a yoke see a patent number on it anywhere?
--Chris
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Atari is not the same company it once was.
The only thing you might run into trouble with is software or artwork. I highly doubt you would see any lawsuit over yoke sales.
Its nothing they plan to make, and cant get any serious money off of it. Suing you wouldnt be worth it either... more in legal costs than possible winnings.
If you were advertising them heavy and selling over 10,000 of them... then maybe it would be a different story.
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The Atari yokes are modeled off the gunnery controls of Bradley fighting vehicles, so I don't think they would have a trademark or patent on the design, as long as they were shipped without art.
I'm not sure this is a true statement. but anyway -
Two things to consider on this argument:
http://www.gamecab.com/yokeimg.htm is selling a similar product for $165.
http://www.happcontrols.com/driving/50810500.htm sells a similar product for (undisclosed) ($$$$$$$$$$)
Menace http://www.arcadecontrols.com/hosted/yoke/ and Twisty-Grip had a similar product as a BYO project for about $50-80.
I realize you are talking about an exact duplicate, but at least this will let you know what your competition is (along with originals on E-bay and rebuild kits previously mentioned).
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here's someone who would definitely want one...
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=21368
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btw, the happs one is NOT a starwars controller. Its a flight stick... push / pull for up/down...
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The Atari yokes are modeled off the gunnery controls of Bradley fighting vehicles, so I don't think they would have a trademark or patent on the design, as long as they were shipped without art.
I'm not sure this is a true statement. but anyway -
This quote is from AtariHQ, but I don't know how accurate it is:
"Imaginative joystick construction was a vital component in Atari's armoury. The original Yoke style design used for the Atari game Star Wars originated from observation of a Military driving control for an APC project at the time, the design created for arcade adaptation proving a impressive unit employed again and again in Atari products, a firm favourite with players."
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The Atari yokes are modeled off the gunnery controls of Bradley fighting vehicles, so I don't think they would have a trademark or patent on the design, as long as they were shipped without art.
I'm not sure this is a true statement. but anyway -
This quote is from AtariHQ, but I don't know how accurate it is:
"Imaginative joystick construction was a vital component in Atari's armoury. The original Yoke style design used for the Atari game Star Wars originated from observation of a Military driving control for an APC project at the time, the design created for arcade adaptation proving a impressive unit employed again and again in Atari products, a firm favourite with players."
Okay, probably correct then.
I was thinking Star Wars came out first, but I guess it was more like -
Battlezone released - gives Army idea for video game trainer - Bradley Trainer released - gives Atari idea for yoke style controller - Star Wars released.
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I was thinking Star Wars came out first, but I guess it was more like -
Battlezone released - gives Army idea for video game trainer - Bradley Trainer released - gives Atari idea for yoke style controller - Star Wars released.
Here's a montage of pics of the Bradley Trainer simulation version of Battlezone; the early yoke is visible in one of the shots:
(http://www.safestuff.com/pieceofjunk2.jpg)
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It's an exciting idea and I hope you are able to go forward with it.
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The Atari yokes are modeled off the gunnery controls of Bradley fighting vehicles, so I don't think they would have a trademark or patent on the design, as long as they were shipped without art.
I'm not sure this is a true statement. but anyway -
Two things to consider on this argument:
http://www.gamecab.com/yokeimg.htm is selling a similar product for $165.
http://www.happcontrols.com/driving/50810500.htm sells a similar product for (undisclosed) ($$$$$$$$$$)
Menace http://www.arcadecontrols.com/hosted/yoke/ and Twisty-Grip had a similar product as a BYO project for about $50-80.
I realize you are talking about an exact duplicate, but at least this will let you know what your competition is (along with originals on E-bay and rebuild kits previously mentioned).
Hey all,
I just wanted to add that the Gamecab yokes are still being redesigned so at the current moment I do not have any in stock. I'll submit a posting on the delay because I'm sure you all can provide suggestions which can be a huge help.
Thanks
Charlie
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FWIW, I am working on a wheel/yoke hybrid that would be plastic and similar in construction to a good quality desk-top steering controller, but with only the sides of the wheel (in SpyHunter fashion). These were to be a component for my next cabinet design (guess which type!)
Would not be an exact repro, but the price would likely be less than a NOS yoke. Would anyone be interested in this as a separate product?
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FWIW, I am working on a wheel/yoke hybrid that would be plastic and similar in construction to a good quality desk-top steering controller, but with only the sides of the wheel (in SpyHunter fashion). These were to be a component for my next cabinet design (guess which type!)
Would not be an exact repro, but the price would likely be less than a NOS yoke. Would anyone be interested in this as a separate product?
Any plans or pics we can review?
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Actually the yoke rebuild kits were just reproed again. I saw the announcement on RGVAC a couple days ago. Exactly the parts you just mentioned.
Paige- I've been searching RGVAC for this, can't find it- can you point me in the right direction?
Thanks!
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Pic of a real Bradley yoke for comparison. :)