Post by: tommyinajar on September 27, 2019, 02:25:36 pm
I'm getting a Starwars yoke and Some original Wicos for Black Widow.
What is the best way reasonably, to duplicate vector graphics?
15 years ago it was a CRT with sharpness and brightness maxed out or somesuchsh*t. Any new vector monitors, or video cards, vector emulators or what is the current best options? Thanks!
Post by: Arroyo on September 27, 2019, 03:14:30 pm
Post by: Mike A on September 27, 2019, 03:20:33 pm
Post by: opt2not on September 27, 2019, 05:31:22 pm
There have been some developments in converting regular raster CRT's into Vector monitors, with a newly developed chassis driver board, and re-winding the tube yoke. But IMO that's an expensive and time invested task to take on.
Another option, if you have an actual Vector monitor, is to try to acquire a Zektor ZVG board and run VectorMame. There are a handful of youtube videos showing this off. The problem is the ZVG boards are rare and expensive. They pop up from time to time on the KLOV forum marketplace, but are usually snatched up quick.
All in all, there hasn't been that much progress on Vector game support. Unless money and time is no object to you, you might want to look into the CRT filters and running on a standard CRT.
Post by: tommyinajar on September 29, 2019, 12:24:36 pm
I'd think with the tech available today, SOMEBODY- would have found a way to emulate, build, repurpose something to copy 1980's technology.
I would like to think that a 19-inch NEW Vector monitor at say- $299 would sell out.
try to acquire a Zektor ZVG board and run VectorMame. There are a handful of youtube videos showing this off. The problem is the ZVG boards are rare and expensive. They pop up from time to time on the KLOV forum marketplace, but are usually snatched up quick.
YOWZERSER!!!! (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Zektor-ZVG-Vector-monitor-board-barely-used-/283573824177?hash=item4206512ab1%3Ag%3AZ7AAAOSwyVRdS5Xd&nma=true&si=y88nHshD%252B4xe4wfkvcxuvUTIijA%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
Yeah. Its funny the reactions I get to my Asteroids Deluxe. People really love the visual impact of that game. Even the color vectors don't really compare. My Tempest gets treated like just another game, but I always get comments about asteroids.
Definitely cool, I put it right below Dragon's lair as one of the best looking (IE Jealous)
I think that 99% has to do with the funky backdrop :laugh:
Post by: leapinlew on September 29, 2019, 01:20:10 pm
Post by: markiej on September 29, 2019, 07:23:56 pm
I'm running Star Wars using a CRT - it's ok. Definitely not the same experience as a vector. My tempest was using a LCD. Between the two, I much prefer the LCD monitor for vector games, but both fall short of the real deal.
MAME64's vector settings love pixels. on a 4K screen, where you can throw 1620x2160 (vertical) or 2880x2160 (horizontal), you can get very eye-pleasing results - I don't have a tempest machine lying around to compare, but probably doesn't compare all that well. I haven't got the settings exactly where I want them just yet, but close (some bloom, some trails):
(https://i.imgur.com/Kc0Kl05.png)
doesn't do it justice when not in motion with that crazy jaws beat. ALso you don't see those little echos, it's a blur - this is what print screen grabbed.
Post by: Mr. Peabody on September 30, 2019, 05:23:42 pm
I don't know from where this 'given technology nowadays' comes.....
Post by: sroberts on January 22, 2020, 10:08:23 pm
What is a suitable, easily available setup for vector graphics - a 4K LED or LCD monitor, 64 bit mame running on Windows? Any particular graphics card? Ideally I'd prefer Linux but I never had success with MAME and OpenGL drivers.
Post by: Arroyo on January 22, 2020, 11:46:13 pm
Vector graphics has been a thorn for me since I first started with MAME in the 90s. I'm preparing for the 4th incarnation of my game cabinet, and would really like to get Asteroids working at a minimum. Battlezone would be my ultimate goal but I'd have to expand controls.
What is a suitable, easily available setup for vector graphics - a 4K LED or LCD monitor, 64 bit mame running on Windows? Any particular graphics card? Ideally I'd prefer Linux but I never had success with MAME and OpenGL drivers.
How into it are you? I've been getting pretty deep and the recent developments by some talented people is downright amazing. You can now:
1.) Build your own vector monitor: (reproduction Amplifone deflector board and HV cage) with a standard 90 degree CRT tube (read TV). https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=439426 (https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=439426)
2.) Own FPGA reproduction of original Vector PCB's (cinematronics/Taito/Midway/Atari) through efforts of folks on KLOV. https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=438283 (https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=438283) AND https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=430077 (https://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=430077)
3.) Lastly there are efforts to create a USB DVG (USB Pluggable Digital Vector Generator) that will allow you to send Vector based graphics from your MAME PC...AND there is an effort to create the same thing but for the MiSTer project. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Vectrex.XY.and.Vector.monitors.The.Technical.Side/?fref=nf (https://www.facebook.com/groups/Vectrex.XY.and.Vector.monitors.The.Technical.Side/?fref=nf) (May need to get accepted to the group first)
The last point will allow you to play Vector games on a vector display with a MAME PC rig. The last will allow you to play the MiSTer FPGA games through a vector display.
All that is to say that the state of Vector games couldn't be more exciting. A little patience and effort and you could have a very close to original reproduction in your house.
Post by: sroberts on January 23, 2020, 09:26:07 am
Post by: Arroyo on January 23, 2020, 07:33:17 pm
I’m not into it enough to buy an oscilloscope (mine broke years ago), which after scanning the 42 pages of "Build your own vector monitor" I gather is essential. Not willing to rejoin facebook either.
I’m not planning on buying an oscilloscope. Just using a vector game board to do convergence, linearity, etc. the USB-DVG will also be the equivalent of a pattern generator for vectors so that will be handy I suppose. But yeah no oscilloscope for me (at least for this project
)Post by: KenToad on January 24, 2020, 10:24:25 am
Post by: dmckean on January 24, 2020, 02:54:16 pm
I've played with Mame settings and never seemed to get it to change the look of my vector games. Does it only work via hlsl?
Yeah, you need HLSL enabled.
Post by: tommyinajar on November 19, 2020, 09:25:27 am
Why doesn't someone with the know-how, start a go fund me page? Between here and KLOV and whomever, I bet it would fly.
IDK Maybe a retrofit kit to add on to an existing (getting scarce) tv, at minimum- A 19" complete for sub $600 would be ideal, which Im guessing would be at least a $450 profit to offset startup costs.
I think Alan1 took off with just a wheel to 4 video games, not a vector monitor that was in a 100? (IDK someone chime in I'm curious now on the number of vector games)
There has to be a billion unused TV parts in crates somewhere. With Raspberries and 3d plastics, I can't believe you can't copy or improve over 50 year old tech...
Post by: Howard_Casto on November 19, 2020, 02:43:44 pm
Post by: Vocalitus on November 20, 2020, 04:16:02 am
I know that the Star Trek Simulator was notorious for this.
Was it the G08 that was used in the Sega Vector Games at the time like Space Fury?
Post by: Grasshopper on November 20, 2020, 07:33:06 am
Conventional monitors, whether they are CRT or LCD based, will never look exactly like a vector monitor because the technology is fundamentally different. However, the higher a conventional monitor's resolution is, the more convincingly it can emulate the look of a vector monitor.
The good news is that, these days, the best monitors have a very high resolution indeed. The resolution of a 4K monitor must be fairly close to the phosphor dot pitch resolution of a traditional vector monitor.
Post by: Arroyo on November 20, 2020, 08:47:13 am
Isn't there a real danger of a Vector display catching fire?
I know that the Star Trek Simulator was notorious for this.
Was it the G08 that was used in the Sega Vector Games at the time like Space Fury?
The G08’s were notorious for having over heating issues. There’s been work done to help minimize that. The same can be said for the WG 6100 which with a LV2000 kit or equivalent has removed this issue. The last COLOR vector chassis the Amplifone was very stable and has run for years without issues. The G08 had the fastest draw rate followed by the Amp, then the WG.
B&W vector monitors were all relatively stable.
Post by: Arroyo on November 20, 2020, 08:58:25 am
The key to emulating a vector monitor is resolution.
Not really sure why you’ve come to this conclusion. It would make sense to me if you were making this argument for Black & White vector games a B&W CRT has no shadow mask. They are special in that the resolution is unlimited, there are not dots.
This however isn’t true for color vector games as they have dots. The size of those dots depends on the dot pitch of the CRT tube being used. If you are trying to mimic that dot pitch I suppose a high resolution TV gives you more freedom in doing so.
The real key to a vector monitor IMHO is the Brightness and Contrast of the display. As a raster monitor is obligated to draw from left to right and from top to bottom it CANNOT match the brightness of a draw line that a vector can. A vector deflection board doesn’t have this obligation. The beam can be held at one point for as long as you want depending on how many other lines need to be drawn. This is why a game like Asteroids looks like ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on any other display type. On a vector monitor the shots in Asteroids look like fireworks, and the rest of the display is pitch black.
Same can be said for color vector games, the lines drawn are very bright, and the blacks around them are inky. Once you’ve experienced it there really aren’t any alternatives.
Post by: Arroyo on November 20, 2020, 09:04:59 am
Reviving thread- Brainstorm-
Why doesn't someone with the know-how, start a go fund me page? Between here and KLOV and whomever, I bet it would fly.
IDK Maybe a retrofit kit to add on to an existing (getting scarce) tv, at minimum- A 19" complete for sub $600 would be ideal, which Im guessing would be at least a $450 profit to offset startup costs.
Did you read my links above on post #10?
This has been done. It will require you to do some work, but everything you would need to buy is there. Maybe I’m missing something?
Post by: Grasshopper on November 20, 2020, 10:29:55 am
The key to emulating a vector monitor is resolution.
Not really sure why you’ve come to this conclusion.
I thought it was obvious. In the early days of MAME when most people were using relatively low resolution CRT monitors, the lines in vector games looked noticeably jagged, and that instantly killed the illusion that you were using a vector monitor.
That being said, I agree that brightness and contrast are also very important. I guess an OLED monitor would be the best current option in that regard, although still not as good as a genuine vector monitor.
Post by: Jimbo on November 20, 2020, 11:59:47 am
I have a couple of spare 19" CRTs that should be compatible with the XY Kit so will let you know how I get on with rewinding the yoke.
Planning a repro Atari Star Wars, and a Multi-Vector cab.
Once you've seen vector in person, there ain't nothing can match it with software, imo.
Post by: Arroyo on November 20, 2020, 01:09:41 pm
I have two of Barry's XY Kits and two of Fred's USB DVG turning up any day now.
I have a couple of spare 19" CRTs that should be compatible with the XY Kit so will let you know how I get on with rewinding the yoke.
Planning a repro Atari Star Wars, and a Multi-Vector cab.
Once you've seen vector in person, there ain't nothing can match it with software, imo.
This guy gets it ^^^
Just to give some examples of this here is my Asteroids (behind a Star Castle color overlay):
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=385556;image)
Here is my Tempest:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=385557;image)
As you can see on the Asteroids (Black & White Vector, again with color overlay), the lines are perfectly crisp with zero pixels. The Tempest on the other hand being a color vector has a shadow mask to separate the three colors. As you can see it clearly has the dots.
Now here is my Sony PVM monitor showing the same pics with default settings in same:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=385558;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=385559;image)
As you can tell from the pics above the raster display can't update the pixels at the same brightness because of the time to sweep from left to right and top to bottom.
Post by: NuclearWarren on November 20, 2020, 02:23:31 pm
First image is the one vector beam size set to 1, the next is set to 2 in Advmame 1.4
We're hitting the wall at the red levels!
ws
Post by: Howard_Casto on November 20, 2020, 02:45:40 pm
Reviving thread- Brainstorm-
Why doesn't someone with the know-how, start a go fund me page? Between here and KLOV and whomever, I bet it would fly.
IDK Maybe a retrofit kit to add on to an existing (getting scarce) tv, at minimum- A 19" complete for sub $600 would be ideal, which Im guessing would be at least a $450 profit to offset startup costs.
Did you read my links above on post #10?
This has been done. It will require you to do some work, but everything you would need to buy is there. Maybe I’m missing something?
I can only assume that he's asking for a ready built monitor or a drop in kit that doesn't require any modification to the tubes, thus my reply on why this isn't really practical for a manufacturer to tackle.
Post by: Arroyo on November 20, 2020, 03:15:32 pm
Here's what I'm seeing. This is LCD though. The BW games are likewise, not point to point lines, but not stair-steppy either. This is why resolution is a factor, the antialiasing.
First image is the one vector beam size set to 1, the next is set to 2 in Advmame 1.4
We're hitting the wall at the red levels!
ws
I can appreciate what you are aiming for compared to a raster CRT with respect to resolution. I get that. However what is missing is a couple of things (I should have mentioned above):
1.) The glow or "bloom" around the drawn words and images (see my Asteroids pic above for a good example).
2.) The flicker effect (subtle but noticeable).
3.) The contrast.
LCD's do a great job at making a bright picture, but the blacks are not black due to the backlighting (OLED's are great for black levels, but not as bright). Some LCD's are better than others with the newest ones moving to backlit LED grids. But getting the screen curvature, bloom, flicker and blacks to match CRT's is near impossible without an original. Now this may be picky I understand, but it also becomes complicated when you have that many pixels to draw in a high resolution LCD/OLED to have the processor and graphics card keep up with the draw speed with that much scaling. Input lag becomes much more noticeable. So while these can be good approximations there are inherently many challenges with getting it to look and feel like the original hardware IMHO.
Post by: big10p on November 21, 2020, 08:18:44 am
Post by: alfonzotan on November 21, 2020, 12:26:58 pm
That's not what I was hoping for...
I'd think with the tech available today, SOMEBODY- would have found a way to emulate, build, repurpose something to copy 1980's technology.
I would like to think that a 19-inch NEW Vector monitor at say- $299 would sell out.
If there was such a thing, it would sell like ice water in Hell, but to too small of a customer base to be economically feasible. 40-year-old Wells Gardner 19K6100's sell for $1,000 these days in working condition, and that's a design with, shall we say, a checkered reliability history. Problem is that nobody has manufactured a vector picture tube since the 80's, no factory is going to build new ones without a purchase order in the tens of thousands, and retrofitting a vintage CRT to be vector-compatible is a non-trivial task.
In other words, don't hold your breath. You're better off looking for a non-working vector monitor or cabinet and either fixing the monitor yourself or getting it fixed (I just did that with a Tempest over the summer).
Post by: dmckean on December 14, 2020, 02:05:49 am
I can appreciate what you are aiming for compared to a raster CRT with respect to resolution. I get that. However what is missing is a couple of things (I should have mentioned above):
1.) The glow or "bloom" around the drawn words and images (see my Asteroids pic above for a good example).
2.) The flicker effect (subtle but noticeable).
3.) The contrast.
LCD's do a great job at making a bright picture, but the blacks are not black due to the backlighting (OLED's are great for black levels, but not as bright). Some LCD's are better than others with the newest ones moving to backlit LED grids. But getting the screen curvature, bloom, flicker and blacks to match CRT's is near impossible without an original. Now this may be picky I understand, but it also becomes complicated when you have that many pixels to draw in a high resolution LCD/OLED to have the processor and graphics card keep up with the draw speed with that much scaling. Input lag becomes much more noticeable. So while these can be good approximations there are inherently many challenges with getting it to look and feel like the original hardware IMHO.
OLEDs with modern graphics cards should be (mostly) up to the task. The WRBG type used for televisions are as bright as CRTs ever were and they could be printed onto a curved surface. They even have the image retention of CRTs. The two main problems right now are that motion isn't as smooth as CRTs and there just isn't a big enough market to make something like this affordable.
Post by: bobbyb13 on March 21, 2021, 05:25:29 am
I have two of Barry's XY Kits and two of Fred's USB DVG turning up any day now.
I have a couple of spare 19" CRTs that should be compatible with the XY Kit so will let you know how I get on with rewinding the yoke.
Planning a repro Atari Star Wars, and a Multi-Vector cab.
Once you've seen vector in person, there ain't nothing can match it with software, imo.
I realize it has been a little while for this thread but just wondering if you have embarked on this journey yet Jimbo.
Seems that you are on the most promising path for making mame pc to legit vector monitor a reality- with stuff you can actually buy and build presently anyway!
Post by: Jimbo on March 21, 2021, 06:09:23 am
I'm really looking forwards to starting on those 2 vector projects, but I need to finish a couple of others first (namely a couple of electrocoin midi jamma conversions to mame). I've heard nothing but good things about the kits by Fred and Barry, so my hope is high that they will turn out great. :)
Post by: csnow on March 21, 2021, 08:22:54 am
Post by: bobbyb13 on March 22, 2021, 12:32:16 am
Hey bobbyb13...
I'm really looking forwards to starting on those 2 vector projects, but I need to finish a couple of others first (namely a couple of electrocoin midi jamma conversions to mame). I've heard nothing but good things about the kits by Fred and Barry, so my hope is high that they will turn out great. :)
Appreciate you chiming in Jimbo.
As most here it seems, you have a host of cool projects happening already!
I have a queue myself, and once I get through the current open ones, hopefully I can make the vector thing happen too.