Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Software Support => GroovyMAME => Topic started by: K-rnivoro on November 30, 2016, 08:13:02 pm
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Maybe this has been written many times before, but I have to say I'm suprised how Switchres works with systems supported by MAME since it's merging with MESS, at least 0.178 version (the one I'm using)
So far I've tested Atari 2600/5200/7800, NES/SNES/Famicom/SFamicom, NEC Turbografx/Supergrafx, ColecoVision, Sega SG-1000.
Using Super-Resolutions, switchres works perfect with allowing to play native resolution in my arcade monitor, than the default "640x480@60i" I've forced to interlaced mode just for comparison reasons and is like day and night (in four face Retroarch!! ;D )
It's nice to see how those pixelated sprites really look "before" the video modulator those consoles had. The picture is sharp and clean, much cleaner than we used to see back that time when we connected those consoles to our TVs using (interlaced) composite video or even RF!!
If someone is interested I can post some screenshot of the Machine Information screen of the system I mentioned.
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Please share some details regarding this :cheers:
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Actually GroovyUME supported non arcade systems a lot of versions ago and all the magic of switchres was there.
And to be honest, almost nobody by the time had RGB connections for the video game consoles, so most of the oldest consoles were using TV-tunner or composite signal for video, which look far worse than RGB.
So we can even say that Groovymame brought RGB to the masses! ;D
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The Play Station would claim that medal, I'm sure. Though "masses" in your context (which can only be "Europe") would lead us to the Amiga 500, if you ask me.
But I sympathize. Half the systems he mentioned couldn't even output RGB. I've been using RGBS since the A500-Mega Drive-Neo Geo days but never bought a PC Engine, for instance, due to not knowing how to get RGB out of it. Many people are re-discovering these systems thanks to 15-kHz emulation. The fabulous PVM/pro CRT demand these days in the US is tightly linked to the discovery of RGBS for vintage gaming, but wait till your everyday youtube celeb makes a video on how 'advanced emulation' can be even better than the real thing.
Anyway, Retro Arch IS 15-kHz single-scan-compatible. The thread about that here has just been bumped.
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Next release (hopefully) will implement a somewhat smoother mode switching (you shouldn't see the desktop flashing on the background anymore). So performance on mode switching systems should improve.
With regards to using RGB for old composite video systems, the thing is you can emulate composite through an RGB output. MAME already has a NTSC filter, although I haven't had the time to test it seriously. This would allow emulating the Sonic waterfall effect, for instance, or the artifact colors of King Quest.
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Yeah, you are in to something important here that can be very wrong when emulation is “enhanced” in some ways. Some game developers used the technical issues with artifacts and color bleeding etc. to their advantage and created things that where “impossible”, like the perception of more colors and so on.
If you don’t show it on the correct hardware it will not be as intended and might even look worse, even though it is “better” from a technical point of view.
This is one of the reason I have a hard time playing C64 games on an LCD monitor, since it doesn’t look right. And also why you can never emulate a Vectrex in a proper way (or any other vector monitor games).
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Well somehow is the same reason why the oldest arcade games don't look the same when played in newer 28" monitors, it looks too sharp, very big scanlines...
When I first played an emulated Spectrum in my arcade cabinet was very cool and with a great arcade feeling, but felt different than the real thing: my Zx Spectrum 48k couldn't even output RGB (although older models could).
I'm really curious about this. Please can you tell a few games that rely on monitor/signal artifacts to blend colors, soften patterns, etc like the before mentioned Sonic or King Quest?
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The Mega Drive/Genesis has many samples of composite video's fake blending:
http://www.retrogamingclub.net/2015/04/to-rgb-or-not-to-rgb-on-your-genesis_29.html (http://www.retrogamingclub.net/2015/04/to-rgb-or-not-to-rgb-on-your-genesis_29.html)
Not too accurate pictures (nor arguments) there, though, so I was hesitant to post that link. Assuming that composite is "correct hardware" is more than a stretch. Especially for the MD.
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You'll hardly see a Mega Drive manual with composite-video screenshots, even for those games, for what is worth:
(https://s15.postimg.org/4nj6vti6j/manual.png)
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That link is very explanatory, not to be seen on a LCD though... I guess that almost every old system with a limited number of colours used this dithering effects, ones more intentionally than others, specially those not supporting RGB output. I think it was a too obvious question ;D
Now I'm curious to try Mame NTSC filter... I guess the more accurate solution would be scaling the game to 640x480i resolution and applying the NTSC filter but I prefer progressive modes :-\
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Now I'm curious to try Mame NTSC filter... I guess the more accurate solution would be scaling the game to 640x480i resolution and applying the NTSC filter but I prefer progressive modes :-\
I tried it today, but didn't achieve a "natural" look, maybe more tweaking of sliders is required. Checkerboard effect was too exagerated in my opinion. Not to mention that my crappy test pc couldn't even handle the filter at 50% speed.
Why upscaling to 640x480i? The Genesis output was progressive for 99.9% of games.
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Now I'm curious to try Mame NTSC filter... I guess the more accurate solution would be scaling the game to 640x480i resolution and applying the NTSC filter but I prefer progressive modes :-\
I tried it today, but didn't achieve a "natural" look, maybe more tweaking of sliders is required. Checkerboard effect was too exagerated in my opinion. Not to mention that my crappy test pc couldn't even handle the filter at 50% speed.
Why upscaling to 640x480i? The Genesis output was progressive for 99.9% of games.
Because NTSC is 640x480i. When you connect a console with that TV Tuner antenna cable is not always displaying a 640x480i filtered picture (720x576i PAL)? Or it depends on the source and can display a progressive mode?
Anyway, I at first assumed that the best way to simulate a NTSC filter is by using its native resolution and actually far more resolution should be required like when using CRT-Royale and such filters...
My intention was to recreate the NTSC filter in a 15Khz CRT through a VGA-Scart cable but I don't think it is possible to achieve that using 320x224p res, for instance for Genesis. At least twice the original resolution should be required (if not more).
Or maybe I am totally wrong...
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Next release (hopefully) will implement a somewhat smoother mode switching (you shouldn't see the desktop flashing on the background anymore). So performance on mode switching systems should improve.
With regards to using RGB for old composite video systems, the thing is you can emulate composite through an RGB output. MAME already has a NTSC filter, although I haven't had the time to test it seriously. This would allow emulating the Sonic waterfall effect, for instance, or the artifact colors of King Quest.
Yes Calamity (and the rest), using direct RGB output can "distort" the "real" emulation, mostly in those games/consoles that took advantage of "analogic processing" for visual effects. Of course there is a lot of examples where developers "squeezed" the hardware achieving really cool effects back those days, but for most of the games, you get better a better look and of course you always can use .ini files for those "special" games.
Keep in mind that display memory buffers are (were) natively progressive. Interlaced display was invented at the same time than television was, because it was impossible to scan a TRC fast enough 60 or 50 times per second, using vacuum tubes back that time. So camera and tv sets, both scanned in an interlaced way (actually interlaced scan is a way of "analogic" compression...funny uh?).
When "television" had to display electronic generated images, things got complicated because of interlaced scan...ringing, aliasing, combing...a lot of undesirable effect appeared.
Fortunately, arcade industry did not have to stick to NTSC standard....but home consoles had, and sometimes they used it in their own benefit.
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Maybe this has been written many times before, but I have to say I'm suprised how Switchres works with systems supported by MAME since it's merging with MESS, at least 0.178 version (the one I'm using)
So far I've tested Atari 2600/5200/7800, NES/SNES/Famicom/SFamicom, NEC Turbografx/Supergrafx, ColecoVision, Sega SG-1000.
Using Super-Resolutions, switchres works perfect with allowing to play native resolution in my arcade monitor, than the default "640x480@60i" I've forced to interlaced mode just for comparison reasons and is like day and night (in four face Retroarch!! ;D )
It's nice to see how those pixelated sprites really look "before" the video modulator those consoles had. The picture is sharp and clean, much cleaner than we used to see back that time when we connected those consoles to our TVs using (interlaced) composite video or even RF!!
If someone is interested I can post some screenshot of the Machine Information screen of the system I mentioned.
Any tutorial on how to boot, for example, snes, nes or genesis roms on groovymame? I cant figure out if i have to use a specific romset beside the bios files. Also some info on roms folder structure. Thanks in advance.
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http://www.mess.org/mess/howto#software_lists (http://www.mess.org/mess/howto#software_lists)
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http://www.mess.org/mess/howto#software_lists (http://www.mess.org/mess/howto#software_lists)
thanks, even though i have already tried but with no not luck.
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thanks, even though i have already tried but with no not luck.
This is old but the process is still the same (instead of "ume" type "mame" or "mame64"):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0)
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thanks, even though i have already tried but with no not luck.
This is old but the process is still the same (instead of "ume" type "mame" or "mame64"):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0)
Thanks for reminding me this. I've managed to boot some genesis/megadrive roms. The problem was my roms naming.
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thanks, even though i have already tried but with no not luck.
This is old but the process is still the same (instead of "ume" type "mame" or "mame64"):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=120331.0)
Thanks for reminding me this. I've managed to boot some genesis/megadrive roms. The problem was my roms naming.
It is much easier using RocketLauncher. It does all the job with the sintaxis.