Microswitches however, have a hard spring tension to overcome initially. They Snap open and closed very abruptly... so you will always have to re-press them fully again, encountering that harsh resistance all over again. In time, this causes a lot of fatigue to your fingers / hand. Also, when you bottom out a microswitch, its hits with a heavy impact. This impact forces travels into the button.. and into your finger... causing further discomfort and fatigue.i use a combination of very light springs and very light action microswitches (cherry light/soft click) to overcome this problem (along with buttons which have a short travel to the microswitch) .. this combination = fast, responsive, accurate and comfortable buttons.
Quote from: Xiaou2Microswitches however, have a hard spring tension to overcome initially. They Snap open and closed very abruptly... so you will always have to re-press them fully again, encountering that harsh resistance all over again. In time, this causes a lot of fatigue to your fingers / hand. Also, when you bottom out a microswitch, its hits with a heavy impact. This impact forces travels into the button.. and into your finger... causing further discomfort and fatigue.i use a combination of very light springs and very light action microswitches (cherry light/soft click) to overcome this problem (along with buttons which have a short travel to the microswitch) .. this combination = fast, responsive, accurate and comfortable buttons.
(to make any button spring lighter, simply snip a little of it away with 'cutting pliers' ... and if you make the mistake of taking a little too much off, you just stretch the spring out a little bit to increase the tension again)
The leafs can easily be controlled to be open and closed as close, or closer, than the thickness of a piece of tracing paper.
No matter how you mod your Micros, that just will not be possible.
As usual, there are some truths to X's opinions, and there are also things which just aren't.
Old-style leaf buttons were very hard on the leaf switches. Not a big deal in those days, where they were plentiful and inexpensive, and there were people who regularly took care of the games to replace/clean them when there were problems. I have seen the leaf switches from those old buttons with the contacts completely ground off, due to the "feature" of not bottoming out (which they certainly still do if you push them all the way down.)
They also have a long throw, which is why you must adopt X's play style, if you wish to use them effectively. If you play by "hovering" above the button until you wish to activate it, or like to hit them hard, there is enough extra travel that you might not care for them. Every modern button uses a shorter plunger, and has a shorter plunger throw.
Installation of the old style leaf buttons is also a pain, compared to newer alternatives. The switches are required to be spaced properly from the underside of the panel (how you do it is up to you) and it's not very forgiving. Too close and it results in stiff actuation, and unnecessary contact wear. Too far away, and the buttons will bottom out after a long travel to actuate them. I have seen both of these undesirable implementations, even on one of my actual arcade machines. It's these kinds of issues associated with the old buttons, which caused an entire industry to abandon them. One can argue whether it was the right thing to do, but it doesn't change history, nor the reasons for doing so.
from: Xiaou2 on January 04, 2016, 03:23:42 am
The leafs can easily be controlled to be open and closed as close, or closer, than the thickness of a piece of tracing paper.
No matter how you mod your Micros, that just will not be possible.
Not true. What you describe is almost exactly what the adjustment screw of our Versa-Micro switches accomplishes. It doesn't make it a leaf switch, but it does give the micro that specific adjustment.[/quote]
As for softer microswitches failing faster (something which I have not seen substantiated,) you have to also ask whether the primary concern is that the switch is more enjoyable to use, or whether the sub-one-dollar switch lasts an extra year in an arcade environment. I'd venture to guess that the choice would be for the former, for most players.
In the end, everyone will have different requirements, based on play style, the level of comfort they have in doing what's required to install them, budget, appearance, build limitations, ease of maintenance, etc... Only the person building the machine, and ultimately using it, can know which variety will be the most suitable for any build. The best advice is to get your "must have" criteria list written, and do some sampling from those offerings which meet it. Otherwise, you may be relying on the opinions of others who have completely different criteria from yours.
Folks who are stuck in the past will only progress if dragged kicking and screaming, and their opinions reflect this mentality more often than not. It doesn't mean they don't offer points worth considering on occasion, but they tend to have an entirely different mindset than a modern-day builder, who likely has different criteria for their machine.
Id dare say Im far more open minded and eclectic than you.
There is no point in wasting time arguing with the majority of what you posted, because you have said nothing worth reply.
What is the leaf-to-microswitch ratio when it comes to ---Deutsche Frankfurters---?There is no point in wasting time arguing with the majority of what you posted, because you have said nothing worth reply.
See, that's the Xiaou we've come to know.
Steve -- it's painful to see you try to argue facts when you don't actually have many. It's not like you're kowal or KevSteele breaking out the calipers and measuring everything to the millimetre -- handling things in a scientific manner. Hell, Randy's actually designing, building and selling stuff. He's done the measuring. Done the legwork. Done the math. He's proven himself. Dismissing him as you do makes just makes you look like a lunatic.
Randy's absolutely right about spacing with leaf buttons and switches. There is a reason why there are four (oritis it 5) different sizes of leaf button spacers in my Big Box o' Buttons. You need to properly match the button height, control panel thickness and spacer height. Otherwise you end up sliding the contact, ---fudgesicle--- them up and get less than decent response. There is no such issue with buttons where the switch attaches directly to the button and the plunger depth is controlled, like a normal microswitch-based button. This is control panel design 101, so you're not particularly credible with that denial (and then there is the whole issue of the extra space taken up under the panel by the damned switches).
Having said that, leafs are the best button controls. Because controls are all about feel and they feel best to me. No dick measuring required.
I rarely lurk on these forums anymore but its funny that after like 10+ years its still the same folks having internet arguments with each other :-D
Keith
(Long time lurker here...)
I think the word you were looking for was "eccentric". Your posts certainly demonstrate none of the open-mindedness you claim to possess, regardless of the topic being discussed.
It may very well be that one of your seasoned operator bretheren decided to replace the leaf assemblies with microswitch buttons when the contacts started getting fluttery. Possibly another case of "if it works when the button is pressed, the job is done"
*edit 2* It may also have been a Data East pinball title I was playing. You can see the microswitch button assembly in this thread (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/data-east-flippers-weakdead), and a part reference here (http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/180-5067-00).
There's a difference between a "sales pitch" and outlining the fundamental design philosophy of something I believed in strongly enough (and still do) to invest ~$10,000 of capital we really couldn't afford, in order to make it available to folks in this community. Fortunately, the "word of mouth" advertising of many thousands of happy users, has us in our 4th large production run. It took about 5 years to happen, but we are finally just past the "break even" point, and more are going out the door every day. It wasn't unexpected, as this is the route most of our innovations take in such a small market as ours.
You wish to believe that all of those very happy users are victims of "salesmanship", simply because you can't seem to let go of a somewhat ill-concocted, preconceived notion that nothing can be as good as what you yourself possess and use. I'm happy to say that you are in a very tiny minority.
Attempting to stifle innovation, as seems to be the goal of most of your "contributions", does more harm than you can probably imagine to our small community. Fortunately, the more open-minded among us who are willing to give these innovations a chance, reap the benefits of them and quite often, come back for more. This leads to new innovations and the furtherance of our hobby. I'll also note that many of our past innovative moves forward are now considered mainstay, and copied by others.
People will wake from their ignorance soon enough.
Steve will be ......Steve.
Steve -- take your meds. You're far crankier and more delusional than usual and that always gets you into trouble. You claim that you are being attacked personally, but it is you calling load of people here clueless. There is no need to attack your character because you are displaying a severe lack of such.
As I said before, Randy's facts are more solid than yours (no matter what you say or claim from your brief period doing scut maintenance at an arcade) and I haven't seen him say anything too far from reality.
Uhh, so what you are really saying... is that you are Willfully Ignorant.. and you basically post a bunch of Useless garbage
Let the opinions fly.
Steve -- take your meds. You're far crankier and more delusional than usual and that always gets you into trouble. You claim that you are being attacked personally, but it is you calling load of people here clueless. There is no need to attack your character because you are displaying a severe lack of such.
It may very well be that one of your seasoned operator bretheren decided to replace the leaf assemblies with microswitch buttons when the contacts started getting fluttery. Possibly another case of "if it works when the button is pressed, the job is done"
As I said before, Randy's facts are more solid than yours (no matter what you say or claim from your brief period doing scut maintenance at an arcade) and I haven't seen him say anything too far from reality.
Steve -- this thread is about what appears to be the best Wico replacement I have seen. Randy did that.
You, OTOH, built something described as "there is ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- like this that you have to take tainted meth to come up with" which applies with equal favour to your shoe analogy.
QuoteSteve -- this thread is about what appears to be the best Wico replacement I have seen. Randy did that.
Well, I have not just "Seem" these. I have one. Its not a replacement. I wouldnt even consider using it in my Asteroids Deluxe.
Its that bad.
Ah... Love it. X2 is right, the rest of the universe is wrong. At least according to him.
So by "Universe"... you mean, a few typical Narcissist posters, many of which do not own a leaf button... nor understand its correct operation?
No, Im not. Randy was in fact excited and kind enough to send me one of the leaf buttons.
Cheffo owns them
But I can't say "Xiaou's right" because you rant all looney and tooney about things that aren't real.
Steve, the only reason you even have one (two actually), is because I sent them to you for free (my error.) You immediately started criticizing it, most likely because you had no idea how to properly adjust it to do what you wanted
, and/or can't seem to get past the fact that they are not the same button as those made 35 years ago. You have some very "set in stone" ideas, based almost entirely on your personal preference, and it's clear that absolutely nothing will ever change them.
It really not worth trying anymore, so there's nothing left to do but direct folks to explore what you have done, so that they might accurately consider the source.
Cheffo....thank you for switching to that avatar :lol
What is clear here... is that you are a mindless fool.
But no... that place was hell. One of the worst jobs Ive held... and I have to actually put "Dishwasher" above it.
If your store isnt a super high population dense area... then your sales figures do not compete with the larger and busier locations...
As such... they dont like to send you too many new games. They give them to the higher earning stores. You end up getting their old crap.. that is barely partially working, beat up, filthy, and hack-butchered to hell internally.
<<SNIP>>
... getting zapped by a board or monitor, fighting a major storm to get in... then being told to go back home (if your not stuck by the time they announce it) .. and eating wretched mall food regularly.
These are just a few of the daily fun events, of a mall arcade manager, of 42 games.
(https://i.imgflip.com/qfelh.jpg)You don't know how long I've been waiting for this...
I did make it back. There was quite a bit of argumentative noise there which almost scared me off :D
I plan on going the route of testing out a few switches to see what I like best, likely choosing a combination.
Thanks everyone. This was informative and....uh, entertaining.