The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: AGarv on September 20, 2013, 04:57:07 pm
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I haven't seen much mention of rotating control panels recently. It has always struck me as the best solution (once construction is finished) to have multiple control setups on the same cab, both for ergonomics and aesthetics.
Ten years ago when 1UP introduced the first rotating control panel cab I am sure it was an absolute nightmare to accurately cut the panels and internal rotation mechanisms. Now that CNCs are readily available, I am surprised we don't see more rotating panels. Other than the need for precision, is there some huge drawback to them that I don't know about? ??? (If anyone has a 3D model for a rotating panel cab floating around, please pass it my way!)
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Other than the need for precision, is there some huge drawback to them that I don't know about?
It is too difficult to make them not look like ass! ;)
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Other than the need for precision, is there some huge drawback to them that I don't know about?
It is too difficult to make them not look like ass! ;)
Agreed!
Even a "quick swap" control panel has the issue of finding a place to store the extra panel(s).
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Cabs are getting smaller and thinner thanks to the monitors. Bartop and Woody are good examples.
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Other than the need for precision, is there some huge drawback to them that I don't know about?
It is too difficult to make them not look like ass! ;)
Yup, what he said. Even the best ones (1Up's PacMamea) have an odd look about them. At best, and with the aforementioned example, there's too much "empty, wasted space" between the controls and the monitor which is required for rotating clearance.
And what Savannah said as well. It's almost easier and, possibly cheaper, to just build a second cabinet now that room isn't so much an issue.
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CNC has nothing to do with rotating control panels.
Most of the complexity is in creating a good secure locking system, as well as the wiring and planning. Theres also issues with controllers... such as if a trackball on a sideward panel is vibrated & moves.. it could interfere with your other controller. Andys interfaces auto activated controllers if they moved.. not sure if thats still the case or not.
Looks are 2ndary to many people who value the games accuracy, and have limited resources in space and money.
I completely disagree that building a 2nd cab is cheaper! The wood for a project is one of the cheapest components! Especially if you get it from side-of-the-road broken shelving / dressers / cabinetry.
To build two bartops, you are still doubling the costs: Two sets of buttons, two encoders (or more depending on setups), multiple sticks, 4 speakers, 2 amps, 2 computers, 2 displays, 2 marquees, door locks, hinges, cooling fans, artwork, T-molding, and more.
How exactly is that saving money?! :lol
And then you still need 2x the space. Even if a bartop is small... it requires that 1 or 2 people can play on it. The only thing you gain with a full size standup LCD slim cabinet is a little less depth. And you pay for that, in poor stability (cabinet rocks & or tips over too easily) and poor vertical viewing angles due to a set height.
And even after all that.. you get a display that looks like crap playing classic games.
So, if your not rolling in dough.. and have the skills to pull off the cabinetry, you can pull off a cab that plays many different kinds of games accurately, without storage space, swap time, and also, save a boat load of money.
Thing is.. most people dont have the mechanical confidence & experience. They would rather just follow a pre-existing blueprint.
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Lack of technical skill and originality.
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I completely disagree that building a 2nd cab is cheaper! The wood for a project is one of the cheapest components! Especially if you get it from side-of-the-road broken shelving / dressers / cabinetry.
To build two bartops, you are still doubling the costs: Two sets of buttons, two encoders (or more depending on setups), multiple sticks, 4 speakers, 2 amps, 2 computers, 2 displays, 2 marquees, door locks, hinges, cooling fans, artwork, T-molding, and more.
How exactly is that saving money?! :lol
Heh I think my logic last night was "building two cabinets would probably be cheaper due to all the wasted wood, materials, mechanisms, etc. needed due to the numerous mistakes I'd make trying to get a rotating control panel working properly." Don't know why I would say that otherwise - basic math.
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CNC has nothing to do with rotating control panels.
Most of the complexity is in creating a good secure locking system, as well as the wiring and planning.
I have been taking a break from building mine, I needed to recharge my batteries but the locking of the panels is an issue, I don't know if it will stand up to some hard playing. Check out my "automated cabinet" build, the link is in my signature.
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I was just going to post about DarthPauls automated cabinet. Work of art.
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Lack of technical skill and originality.
Then there's tainted meth.
Personally I think there's a very fine you're describing there. Someone without the technical know how won't attempt something like that and someone who does have the know how isn't going to want to make something that looks like ass.
It's that point in between when the person doesn't know any better. Of course, that statement isn't strictly limited to just rotary cabs.
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Personally I think...
Simply false.
Everyone has their own ideas, feelings, and reasons to make whatever they make.
Are you saying that Jeri Ellsworth's C64 bass guitar is fablously beautiful?
Its retro cool, and technically interesting ... but its no work of art that people would sell their souls to get hold of.
The only consideration, may be people whom have technical ability and the tools to pull it off... may also have the
money and space available for multiple machines. Hence, no reason to build such a design.
Quite simply, a rotating control panel is built for space & cost savings... while allowing the user many more options for arcade perfect control options, with the least amount of playability compromises.
I had many people email me about my prototype when I released the pics... inspired and asking questions, as well as giving me props and praise. A few asked why I wasnt patenting it and trying to sell it... which was admittedly way over the top, and highly unrealistic.. heh.
Again, its not for everyone.. but, I can tell you that a LOT more people care about game playability, over mere looks.
Even if thats Your opinion. In fact, most true arcade machines are gaudy and ugly. But that was never an issue to the players.
As for your Meth goatting, you very well know that nobody on Meth is going to be building much of anything, let alone a rotating control panel. Please, leave the button pushing to Cheffo. Hes much better at it.
What genuinely shocking.. is that the person behind publicly attacking so many creatively inspired peoples works... isnt someone in poverty and struggle. This man has a basement of pinball machines, and is technically skilled.
Its one thing for jealously and unenlightened low class level behavior to come from a person of a rough background.. but from someone like this? Its embarrassingly shameful. Really flushes the faith in humanity right down the drain.
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CNC tooling was never the limiting factor in the scarceness of rotating or modular control panels.
Multipurpose machines never seem to work like they as well as intended.
Some good examples include the Shopsmith line of work shop tools.
It’s a tablesaw, lathe, drill press, sanding disk and more.
But... the added complexity and time to reconfigure the device negates any suggested cost and space savings.
I just came across a print ad in yesterday’s Sunday paper for a new Craftsmen hand held cordless tool.
It looks like a cordless drill but can also be a sawzall, flashlight and rotary cutter.
Makes for a great late night commercial.
Same reason as the car/boat combo which always seems to reemerge every generation.
Barring the Swiss army knife, I don’t know of many ‘all in one device’ that work well as marketed.
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Other than the need for precision, is there some huge drawback to them that I don't know about?
It is too difficult to make them not look like ass! ;)
Yup, what he said. Even the best ones (1Up's PacMamea) have an odd look about them. At best, and with the aforementioned example, there's too much "empty, wasted space" between the controls and the monitor which is required for rotating clearance.
And what Savannah said as well. It's almost easier and, possibly cheaper, to just build a second cabinet now that room isn't so much an issue.
Hrm, yeah I have to agree that with the 1UP/Frosty design the monitor sits unnaturally high compared to traditional cabs:
(http://arcade.tomvanhorn.com/graphics/fullcab_lowres.jpg)
1UP's Pacmamea and Frostillicus' machine are old-school CRT cabs. The coin door had to pull forward to allow for rotation, and the heavy CRT monitor had to stay locked into place. In the era of affordable 27"+ LCDs, the monitor itself could be designed to swing up during rotation, then drop back into place after rotation, with no need for the "dead space" (it would be behind the monitor).
Are there any 3D models floating around that have 1Up's rotation mechanism that I could drop into sketchup?
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1UP's Pacmamea and Frostillicus' machine are old-school CRT cabs. The coin door had to pull forward to allow for rotation, and the heavy CRT monitor had to stay locked into place. In the era of affordable 27"+ LCDs, the monitor itself could be designed to swing up during rotation, then drop back into place after rotation, with no need for the "dead space" (it would be behind the monitor).
Are there any 3D models floating around that have 1Up's rotation mechanism that I could drop into sketchup?
I was actually thinking about that same idea at one point and then I just kind of came up with something while I was killing time at work here. Don't know how doable this is as this is in no way "to scale" or anything but I was thinking about a four-sided rotating panel with an overhang on each one to flush with coin door front panel and extra space towards the back for the monitor panel to rest on.
Again, not tested or measured or anything - but if it looks useful to your project, feel free to take it and run with it.
(EDIT: You could probably move that monitor back some and would probably need to make the overhangs longer for the sticks (or whatever) to clear the front. Again, quick sketch - literally 30 seconds including the scan.)
(EDIT 2: Wonder how you'd get the monitor to lift up easily without adding ugly handles... See therein lies the issue with the rotating panels, so many challenges to overcome....)
(EDIT 3: Figured out the answer to my own question: Open front, push down, let the panel gently push forward the monitor and lift the rest of the way. But make sure you connect everything with one of those 'spinning connectors' - like they have for phone cords. And ratchet the rotation so it only turns forward.... Ugh, AGarv - turn my brain off!!! ;) )
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(EDIT 2: Wonder how you'd get the monitor to lift up easily without adding ugly handles... See therein lies the issue with the rotating panels, so many challenges to overcome....)
Use a linear actuator like G-rock26 did for Project Morph (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120787.0.html).
Project Morph White (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZuE9WmL9CE#ws)
Add a second one for the front panel and you are good to go. :cheers:
Scott
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(EDIT 2: Wonder how you'd get the monitor to lift up easily without adding ugly handles... See therein lies the issue with the rotating panels, so many challenges to overcome....)
Use a linear actuator like G-rock26 did for Project Morph (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,120787.0.html).
Add a second one for the front panel and you are good to go. :cheers:
Scott
I love that project, though the linear actuator pushes it into that "two dedicated cabinets cheaper than one" theory I tried selling earlier. It would up the 'cool factor' significantly - yet not entirely a strict requirement (see Edit 3).
The more I think about it, the more I think if such a thing were to work, that the Slim Defender style cabinet design (see my currently abandoned project (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121174.0.html) or, better yet, successfully completed ones (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,89163.0.html)) may be best suited for it. The real deal naturally had a panel with a slight overhang, the front part with the coin area is extra roomy to, hopefully, accommodate the panels' controls not currently in use and I feel like you can drop down that 'front-belly' a bit easier (and hide a release-latch or key underneath the bottom of it.) I may need to break out my Sketch-Up files and see what actually is possible while keeping the lines as close to original (minus the whole 'slim-line' modification, obviously) as possible.
The goal here is to not lose too much real estate having to account for the backs of adjacent panels and other areas deemed 'unusable'. If a panel were 10" deep, you'd have maybe 5-6 inches of usable space (rough worst-case scenario guess.) That's a fairly big obstacle. The other one is being able to easily remove the panels from the rotating mechanism for maintenance while making whatever holds it down strong enough to support a board full of hardware hanging upside down*.
(*Which may be why a TRIANGLE with three panels - along with better space management - may actually be better now that I think about it.)
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A mechanical auto-lift would be pretty easy.
Basically, you can attach a roller wheel set to the bottom of the lcd mount panel. Then attach some side panels to the rotating control panels, which are shaped in such a way, that as the panel is rotated.. it will cause the roller to rise and lower. Basically, like a rollercoaster track.
You would want to put a wood or metal slide-braces on both the front and rear sides of the lcd panel.. forming a channel. The external sides braces would have screws, so can be removable.. which is typical in arcade bezel holders. If sliding was a little rough, you could also put a few bearing rollers on the rear side of the monitor panel as well.
Not sure a 4 sided panel will work well though, because the angle may be steep in order to attain the space needed to clear the front on the cabinet. One of the reasons for a rotating cp, is for things like tall trigger stick, or even steering wheels.. both of which are externally tall, and also, internally deep.
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Not sure a 4 sided panel will work well though, because the angle may be steep in order to attain the space needed to clear the front on the cabinet. One of the reasons for a rotating cp, is for things like tall trigger stick, or even steering wheels.. both of which are externally tall, and also, internally deep.
Yes, have to agree. The design in my head would likely accommodate nothing taller than a standard joystick and even that may be tight. Kick it down to a triangle and see where that takes you.
You have much more wiggle room if you can forgo the fancier controllers (or make them a modular add-on like PacMamea has) and stick to joysticks, spinners and trackballs. Me? I'd do the rotation just to have a couple of seperate layouts (1 player, 2 player fighter, trackball/spinner, Defender.) Seems a waste, I know.
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I love that project, though the linear actuator pushes it into that "two dedicated cabinets cheaper than one" theory I tried selling earlier. It would up the 'cool factor' significantly - yet not entirely a strict requirement (see Edit 3).
I mentioned linear actuators for the no handles and coolness factors. 8)
If expense is a concern, go with a lever arm on the monitor board and a pulley system tied to the front panel. ;D
Scott
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X , I think your rant is humorous but you're off on a tangent there. :dunno
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Rotating control panels are for the most part just a dumb idea. Too much work and cost for too little reward. Id rather see a frankenpanel than a bingo ball dispenser. Swappable panels makes more sense. (you can just store the extra panels in the bottom of the cab)
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Have an arcade cabinet that works well with most games, not a cabinet that works with every game. A rotating monitor would be cool, but my 27" lcd is large enough that vertical games would still be playable in the horizontal position.
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i keep thinking of pimp my ride when i hear of rotating control panels and monitors.
xzibit would say...
yo dog- i heard you like centipede, tempest, star wars, defender, q-bert, streetfigher, pole position AND disks of tron
well todays is yo lucky day...we pimped your CAB!
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here is what the staff of pimp my cab came up with.
8 distinct control panels!
Roulette design because Vegas baby!
Motorized operation because complexity and cost
Less space than 8 dedicated cabinets!
Feel free build- I am gifting idea to the public!
CNC make your dreams a reality.
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Have an arcade cabinet that works well with most games, not a cabinet that works with every game. A rotating monitor would be cool, but my 27" lcd is large enough that vertical games would still be playable in the horizontal position.
Bingo. I think the longer you are in this hobby, the more you realize a "OMGZ!!!!1!! I can play every game known to man" cab is what you start out wanting and maybe even build, but you soon realize that it's not going to work out that way in a fun and effective manner.
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1UP's Pacmamea and Frostillicus' machine are old-school CRT cabs. The coin door had to pull forward to allow for rotation, and the heavy CRT monitor had to stay locked into place. In the era of affordable 27"+ LCDs, the monitor itself could be designed to swing up during rotation, then drop back into place after rotation, with no need for the "dead space" (it would be behind the monitor).
Are there any 3D models floating around that have 1Up's rotation mechanism that I could drop into sketchup?
I was actually thinking about that same idea at one point and then I just kind of came up with something while I was killing time at work here. Don't know how doable this is as this is in no way "to scale" or anything but I was thinking about a four-sided rotating panel with an overhang on each one to flush with coin door front panel and extra space towards the back for the monitor panel to rest on.
Again, not tested or measured or anything - but if it looks useful to your project, feel free to take it and run with it.
(EDIT: You could probably move that monitor back some and would probably need to make the overhangs longer for the sticks (or whatever) to clear the front. Again, quick sketch - literally 30 seconds including the scan.)
(EDIT 2: Wonder how you'd get the monitor to lift up easily without adding ugly handles... See therein lies the issue with the rotating panels, so many challenges to overcome....)
(EDIT 3: Figured out the answer to my own question: Open front, push down, let the panel gently push forward the monitor and lift the rest of the way. But make sure you connect everything with one of those 'spinning connectors' - like they have for phone cords. And ratchet the rotation so it only turns forward.... Ugh, AGarv - turn my brain off!!! ;) )
Very cool ideas (and the pulley system, PL1)! I hadn't thought of having the rotating box itself be the mechanism that releases the monitor. The monitor pivot point could easily be lowered (from the top) to allow for easier clearance of taller controls (e.g. a yoke or Tron-stick).
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Heh - the more I play with sketch-up the more I see the limitations of making a rotation mechanism that keeps the machine not looking like it's a Transformer. And when you have to start figuring in pistons and pulleys and wheels - and most importantly the lack of under-panel space - it makes swappable panels seem like an overall better solution (even if it's less elegant.) Plus I looked at every rot example on the web and there's always that one thing about it I wasn't too crazy about - looks-wise.
Not to discourage you - if you really want to go for it you can always try to find more elegant solutions that we've seen. But I've now seen why you don't see many rotating panel projects: there's just too many 'simpler' and 'better' solutions out there to justify the extra work.
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The monitor pivot point could easily be lowered (from the top) to allow for easier clearance of taller controls (e.g. a yoke or Tron-stick).
If you choose to do this, make sure that the monitor board is bottom heavy enough to close all the way.
Scott
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Swappable CPs are not easy to just put anywhere. If you have a single tron CP, its barely going to fit in the bottom of a cab thats already filled with electronics. Especially if its a slim variant. And thats IF you make your CPs with less width than the cabinet itself. Most arcade CPs are the same size or larger than the cabs bottom... width wise. And vertically storing them still wont get you more than 2 CPs... if you can fit them easily.
And... its still a pain and hassle, to swap them every time you want to play a different game.
I just know someones gona say Modular. ugg. I was probably the first person to draw up a modular CP, and for a while, thought it was the greatest idea ever... but then I realized the logistics of the thing.. as far as storing parts and again, swapping them over and over again.
In the end, I may still build a CP thats similar to Unclets cab. (Horizontal Rotation) But fully enclosed, with more CP options.
The vertical rotation on the prototype I built worked well, ... but, I realized it would be far nicer to have a sit-down experience rather than stand up.
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Swappable CPs are not easy to just put anywhere. If you have a single tron CP, its barely going to fit in the bottom of a cab thats already filled with electronics. Especially if its a slim variant. And thats IF you make your CPs with less width than the cabinet itself. Most arcade CPs are the same size or larger than the cabs bottom... width wise. And vertically storing them still wont get you more than 2 CPs... if you can fit them easily.
And... its still a pain and hassle, to swap them every time you want to play a different game.
I just know someones gona say Modular. ugg. I was probably the first person to draw up a modular CP, and for a while, thought it was the greatest idea ever... but then I realized the logistics of the thing.. as far as storing parts and again, swapping them over and over again.
In the end, I may still build a CP thats similar to Unclets cab. (Horizontal Rotation) But fully enclosed, with more CP options.
The vertical rotation on the prototype I built worked well, ... but, I realized it would be far nicer to have a sit-down experience rather than stand up.
Let me refure you step by step.....
There is tons of room in the bottom of a cab. Granted Im sure theres someone out there with a decased PC and an arcade monitor that requires an isolation transformer but we need to generalize here and not assume every cabinet is worst case scenario. In my cab, the PC sits on a shelf behind the monitor.
Ahhh the tron-gument. I believe you could EASILY fit 4 CPs inside a standard cab (lean one inside each corner), and a 5th would be installed. I dont believe you would even need that many unless you made a ton of game specific CPs
Odds are after someone built all these CPs they will probably leave 1 panel on there 95% of the time because it'll be for the games they actually play.
I drew my first modular panel for my first MAME cab about 15 years ago because I wanted to be able to swap a 4way and an 8 way, and the SF layout (for Snes96), the NBA Jam layout which evolved to the NeoGeo Layout, and I dont think I was the first to do it either.
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Swappable CPs are not easy to just put anywhere.
I never got this. You have the room for a full size cabinet, but when it comes to a slab of wood with some hardware on it you suddenly don't have space for it? I mean, justify doing a rotating cp however you want, but can we agree that most of us could find a nice, safe space for extra control panels if push ever came to shove? (Plus it's not like the rotating panel isn't taking up a ridiculous amount of real estate in the cabinet that could be used for panel storage if you planned ahead for it.)
And... its still a pain and hassle, to swap them every time you want to play a different game.
Do you really need to switch controls after EVERY game? I feel like joysticks and a few buttons cover a large number of games (without breaking it down into 4/8 way) and the other controls are for that occasional driving, trackball, etc. game. YMMV.
I'm not trying to discourage it. You should just examine your actual needs before going down that complicated route. I feel that many people can get a lot of mileage out of a single panel and then, maybe, make it swappable if you have the need for rather specific control types. I just kept coming across limitation after limitation when I was sketching it out and the easier solutions were hard to ignore.
(Malenko beat me to a lot of what I said....)
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(Malenko beat me to a lot of what I said....)
I still love ya baby :*
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What Malenko said.
I normally just laugh inside at the 'where are you gonna store your panels?' objections. FFS I've got an empty box 24"x24"x36" right in front of me.
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(Malenko beat me to a lot of what I said....)
I still love ya baby :*
D'awww thanks!
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I never got this. You have the room for a full size cabinet, but when it comes to a slab of wood with some hardware on it
A Tron stick takes up nearly 1ft on top, and what... another 5" on bottom... which you would want to enclose, so that nothing gets damaged as you swap and store them. Then you have things like dual T2 guns, Starwars, Spyhunter, and Supersprint wheels. All of which take a large amount of space in both directions... especially if you have built the proper raised mounts for them, to get the correct play angles. I even have a few Arcade Analog sticks, which have something like 9" long under brackets.
I doubt Id use an LCD, as I dont care for the look. But even if you did.. you would still need to build an extended cabinet to house all the controls Ive acquired... with some sort of non standard pull out shelving drawers. And again, this is still a pain in the rear to do.. as well as cost more in materials & parts.
Do you really need to switch controls after EVERY game? I feel like joysticks and a few buttons cover a large number of game
Again, this is how you feel. But I love games with unique controllers. Supersprint, Starwars, T2, Tron, Discs of Tron, and more. These are some of my favorites, and I play them more often than many of the more generic controller games.
Plus it's not like the rotating panel isn't taking up a ridiculous amount of real estate
A rotating Cp at its worst, doesnt take up that much more space than a typical cab. But, its still cheaper, and its still easier to play games, rather than spend 4 min each swap out. (plus the possible need to exit and restart mame to deal with the controller changes)
Vertically, I think a 5 sided panel is about as small as Id go, if I were to go that route.
But my goals have changed, so my machine may be a beast, if I ever get around to building it.
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I never got this. You have the room for a full size cabinet, but when it comes to a slab of wood with some hardware on it
A Tron stick takes up nearly 1ft on top, and what... another 5" on bottom... which you would want to enclose, so that nothing gets damaged as you swap and store them. Then you have things like dual T2 guns, Starwars, Spyhunter, and Supersprint wheels. All of which take a large amount of space in both directions... especially if you have built the proper raised mounts for them, to get the correct play angles. I even have a few Arcade Analog sticks, which have something like 9" long under brackets.
But that's what I was trying to say: if they're taking up space stored somewhere else, they're going to take up space in your rotating CP. Look at 1UP's PacMamea - that control panel enclosure is much larger than just a single one and he still has to store those modular parts anyway. Rotating panels are not space-savers.
Again, this is how you feel. But I love games with unique controllers. Supersprint, Starwars, T2, Tron, Discs of Tron, and more. These are some of my favorites, and I play them more often than many of the more generic controller games.
Well you're a tad unique and therefore your needs are different. For you, rotating control panels might be a more viable option. I feel that most builders are only going to worry about the more basic controls and I was kind of offering my findings based on the common denominator.
But, its still cheaper, and its still easier to play games, rather than spend 4 min each swap out.
Not exactly cheaper - you'd have to now get additional hardware to work the rotation mechanism plus keep in mind you have to have all the controls bought up front (instead of building as you buy with removable panels.) And that leads to the final problem:
if I ever get around to building it.
You spend so much more time planning and measuring instead of simplifying and playing the games.
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Rotating panels are _definitely_ another level of complexity to design and build.
There's more room to mess stuff up. It takes a lot of time. It is much harder to make the panels lock into place and feel "solid". Precious time that could be spent wiring LEDs to buttons and installing subwoofers will be forfeited. I get it.
(http://1uparcade.rmfx.com/images/CProtation.gif)
That said, now that LCDs can overcome the "high monitor" issue (which admittedly looks terrible) created by CRTs, a well designed and constructed rotating cab could look great (slim cab optional) and offer great ergonomics, particularly for custom controls (e.g. I love Assault), without the PITA of swappable panels. A good design is worth exploring in 3D, IMO.
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Rotating panels are _definitely_ another level of complexity to design and build.
There's more room to mess stuff up. It takes a lot of time. It is much harder to make the panels lock into place and feel "solid". Precious time that could be spent wiring LEDs to buttons and installing subwoofers will be forfeited. I get it.
I for one appreciate your sarcasm. Wiring in LEDs and even too much audio is not the logistical nightmare of a rotating panel. Your animated gif example is 3 panels, of which 1 is a frankenpanel. Xeth-head said he's do FIVE panels. In what world is doing the math and construction of 5 separate panels joined onto 1 bingo ball dispenser easier than making 2 or 3 swappable panels?
How long would it take to lift up a magnetically or industrial velcro'ed panel, unplug 2 or 3 DB9 connectors. Plug in 2 or 3 DB9 connectors, and sit control panel back on cabinet. This time could be reduced by having the DB9 connectors line up on the bottom of the panel.
how long would it take to tilting up the base of the monitor, opening the coin door area, rotating to the desired panel, locking the panel, closing the coin door, tilting the monitor back in place.
Now how much more time does one take over the other? even if it took about the same time (which it probably would) how much easier is the design and implementation of one over the other?
I think the major issue here is how many panels would you actually need. 5 seems far fetched, the standard 2 player 8 way and 7 buttons takes care of a TON of games. Is the plan to not use just the neogeo layout for standard jamma games? Realistically, excluding various wheel panels (your driving cab should be dedicated IMO) 3 should cover pretty much everything which to mean would eliminate the need for a rotating panel.
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I had given the idea of a contained system with multiple control panels a thought before and this is what I came up with.
At the push of a button or more preferably switching to the proper gamelist would make control panel one sink to the bottom of the cabinet via a linear actuator while control panel two would come in from the back and lock into place via a separate linear actuator.
As reference to by the quick paint "rendering" (lol)
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Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.
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Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.
This? http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/ (http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/)
(I had to weed through links to beer and blueberries...)
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Google Bluefruit. Probably a good candidate to get rid of the DB9.
This? http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/ (http://hackaday.com/2013/09/24/announcing-adafruits-bluefruit/)
(I had to weed through links to beer and blueberries...)
There's blueberries there?
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If there are games you really want to play, finding space for the panels is not a big problem. Finishing all of the panels is a different story.
(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b6/pcolson/Monster%20Arcade/temporary-74.jpg) (http://s16.photobucket.com/user/pcolson/media/Monster%20Arcade/temporary-74.jpg.html)
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If your playing an intense game, the last thing you want is to get killed due to response delays in wireless controls.
Or even batteries running out as your about to kill the end boss
...as well as the whole aspect of having to work out a charging scheme.
Paul has an entire wall dedicated to controllers (and for most non gamer woman, that wouldnt fly too well, as its not very 'pretty' :P ) Even put into panels, the extra wood work, would still equate to a wall, if not more space.
I have pretty much the same stash.. Maybe more... but Pauls pics are cut off, and who knows if hes hiding more controllers & panels elsewhere.
The modular makes swaps even more time consuming, and a pain... but, you can at least get to play a panel without any compromises. If you only had to swap a few controllers, it may not be an issue. But a wall worth.. its a different story.
Your animated gif example is 3 panels, of which 1 is a frankenpanel. Xeth-head said he's do FIVE panels. In what world is doing the math and construction of 5 separate panels joined onto 1 bingo ball dispenser easier than making 2 or 3 swappable panels?
Good things are not always Easy. In fact, the most difficult things, are usually the most rewarding. I personally love the challenge of designing and building things that do not exist.
I said, if I were to do a vertical rotator, in a cab shape, it would probably have to have at least 5 sides. Thats partly due to the number of controllers Id want to put on it... and partly, to give the center enough space to actually house deep controllers internally. Of course, Ive not tried a scale mock up to see if thats even feasible.
I originally did a triangle mockup, realizing that there was no space for deep controllers. Thought about a 4 way, but there wasnt enough space for all the controllers I wanted to use. Decided on a 6way pedestal, based on the size needed, ease of the geometry, and the maximum number of panels that could be used without any comfort or technical issues.
But, Ive since changed my mind about the standing thing... so it will be a horizontal rotator, possibly with 6 or 8 panels, and each panel might have the ability to flip over... or be spun around, giving twice the mount of possible controller configurations.
How long would it take to lift up a magnetically or industrial velcro'ed panel, unplug 2 or 3 DB9 connectors. Plug in 2 or 3 DB9 connectors, and sit control panel back on cabinet. This time could be reduced by having the DB9 connectors line up on the bottom of the panel.
Such connectors are very unfriendly to tons of connections and dis-connections. You typically dont change your monitor 20x a day. Nor are they smooth and easy to connect. Some are way too tight. But even typical DB9, the tolerances are very high for mating. Meaning, you would have to be a master machinist, and have expensive linear bearing slides, in order for a slide-in-place locking system. Otherwise, everything will be done via hand... and eventually, those tiny wires will break from all the moving. Furthermore, that 9pins. Not many things can be done with 9pins.. unless your buying a separate USB encoder for Every panel you make.. which would be quite expensive. Especially cause you would have to buy the more expensive encoders for all the analog controllers / trackballs / spinners.. etc.
The Arcades used the Jamma slot connectors, because they are huge.. and so do not have tight tolerances. (slides in easy, even if your blindfolded) The wires are large, and less likely to break from pulling boards on and off for repairs, cleanings, and game swaps.
But even those connectors are low in pins... and I believe they may be a bit expensive. Also, you may need to find the male ends... or have a circuitboard place make you custom male solderboards.
Anyways, the highest bit of accuracy in a rotating control panel is the locking mechanism. I tried a pin system, but I didnt have the skills and tools for perfect accuracy needed. I then decided to make a disc brake system, using a modified vice grip. When properly clamped, nothing could make it move. Still, theres similar ways to make something like this in a more compact and pleasing way. A combination of cable driven spring pins, and a pressure brake lock.
how long would it take to tilting up the base of the monitor, opening the coin door area, rotating to the desired panel, locking the panel, closing the coin door, tilting the monitor back in place.
Now how much more time does one take over the other? even if it took about the same time (which it probably would) how much easier is the design and implementation of one over the other?
Your over exaggerating again. If the LCD panel is on a track, it will auto rise as the panel is rotated. The rotation would take 5 to 15 seconds max, on a cab which has a need for a pull out, """IF""" you have the pull out section on a simple spring lock. Opening the coin door to reach for latches, would be a dumb idea to for a rotator.
On the other hand... you have a more traditional swap panel setup.. and your probably doing just that. Open coin door.. unclench the spring clips, drag panel off, while wrestling to disconnect all the connectors... drag new panel out... put the old panel back, grunt the new panel in place, attach those horrid connectors again... and then reach up into the 'blood sacrifice' box, and snap the clasps back in place.
Being a former arcade manager, I HATE coindoor entry to control panels, with a passion.
I never understood why people with swap panels didnt make an external release. Its not like you have to worry about theft of the controller in own your house.. and even then, you could easily put a key lock in a discrete place, such as under the CP lip.
I think the major issue here is how many panels would you actually need. 5 seems far fetched, the standard 2 player 8 way and 7 buttons takes care of a TON of games. Is the plan to not use just the neogeo layout for standard jamma games? Realistically, excluding various wheel panels (your driving cab should be dedicated IMO) 3 should cover pretty much everything which to mean would eliminate the need for a rotating panel.
You pretty much answered your own statements.
If your doing a Streetfighter panel.. theres little need for a rotator.
But if you want to play Tron as well.. then you need a trigger stick and spinner.
Assault (one of the best tank games ever), you need Two 4-way trigger sticks.
SuperSprint.. 2 to 3 optical wheels.
Marble Madness 2 trackballs.
Terminator 2 - Two T2 guns with recoil coils.
And driving game can be played in standup mode. Many were made in sitdown and standup cabs. But how many people have room for a dedicated dual driving cabinet? And if you decide you will only ever drive alone.. (as you have no friends?) ..thats still a lot of space dedicated to one kind of game. Space that not everyone can afford.
Yet that still begs the question how you will play 3 player Supersprint? 4 player Warlords, 4 player HotRod, and many other unique and fun games that use interesting controllers.
Also, if you want to play a 360 degree racer... how will you play Spy Hunter? Spyhunter needs you to work the shifter, steering, gas, and usually two weapons at once... sometimes all of them. Machine guns, Smoke, Oil, Missiles. Trying to use buttons that are away from the wheel.. isnt going to work well at all. Furthermore, Spy Hunters wheel itself, is so much different in feel than a typical PC or even arcade analog wheel. Its specifically designed to be slammed full force, for bumping the baddies. The faster you move the wheel.. the more force that is applied on impact.. and thus the enemy will be bumped further away. Bump to slowly, and they will either not be phased, will not be moved far, part of their bump power cancels yours out, and or their bump is more powerful.. and so moves you instead. So, IMO, the original wheel is required to play this game.
Same for StarWars. Theres No controller that can play this game in a fun and accurate manor than the original. Period.
Starwars could be used for Spyhunter... in that it has enough buttons... However, its not quite as Sturdy, nor as nice a feel for that particular game. Also, you would have to hook a pot to a pedal set, cause controlling the gas via wrist roll is too clunky, and will easily get you killed in this highly precise and brutally difficulty game.
Then theres basic stuff.. like Wico Leafswitches vs Micros. And custom layouts, such as a perfect Asteroids Deluxe button configuration.. as well as Defender layout with real 2way mini stick. And 4 & 8 way wico leaf joysticks. Robotron just doesnt operate will without the real Wicos. And classics dont control nor feel good without the leaf controls. Especially fast fire games.. where micros are so much more fatiguing.
The All-in-One controller solutions just dont hit the mark. They may save space.. but they dont give you the feel and control of the originals. Nor are they built with the same level of industrial durability, and thus high quality feel.
So, your perspective probably comes from your younger age.. where you didnt experience these different games in person.. and dont really know what your missing... and why people go to such great lengths to get the matching setup down pat.
These games in their original form, were like the most expensive and elite sports cars... and when you put the wrong controls on them, it changes them into car that been in a serious accident. It never performs the same way. The mechanics dont respond quick or tight.. theres slop and delay, and you cant make the car do what you want and or Need it to do. Therefore, your enjoyment is squashed. (And if it were a car, your crashing into a tree due to a mechanical issue would really tick you off) Finally, if you have decided you cant play this game at all.. because everyone said not to install the controllers, due to looks... you see the car sitting pretty in the gameroom (mame game list) ... but you cant drive it because theres no steering wheel, pedals, nor shifter. All you do is end up weeping internally.
To close... you just cant tell me what my, or others passions and or sacrifices should be. Just as I dont tell people they Should love martial arts and do it 5hrs every day. Nor tell them how to do it, and what methods they should or shouldnt use. Especially if Im pretty new into the arts, and dont even know the history, depth, and reasons, for the multiple arts unique techniques and training methods.
We each have our own levels of passions and desires, and you should accept and embrace that fact, rather than trying to change that. You cant change Me. Nor can you change others. The only person you Can change, is yourself. And that SHOULD be good enough for you. Im sure you dont like it when someone tries to tell you how to think, feel, and do things... and puts you down for being what they consider 'crazy', 'unnecessary', 'a waste of time & money', 'childish'...etc...
So in a most basic example, Im saying, that if someone says they Loved Tron as a kid, and its still their favorite game.. dont tell them your opinion that Tron Sticks are ugly on a control panel. It has no bearing, is negative, and its not going to change their passion about that game. And ruining that passion, over your penchant for how someone elses cab looks, would be a crime indeed.
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Such connectors are very unfriendly to tons of connections and dis-connections. You typically dont change your monitor 20x a day.
Who's swapping panels 20 times a day?
You know, you' give these rousing speeches about how you love these games and they deserved to be played properly, etc. but you don't seem to want to play them for very long considering you have a constant need to spin to another controller every other five minutes.
Typically with swappapble panels, you have a regular joystick panel. You swap it out for the occasional game that uses unique controls. And while it's on there, maybe you'll check out a couple of other games that use that control. And that's maybe what's good about swappable panels - they teach you to spend time and enjoy the games a little more.
(P.S. - This isn't an anti-rot stance btw. If you want to build it because you enjoy the challenge and the mechanics and the 'coolness factor', have at it. But let's stop pretending it's for "love of the game." Because if you really need to keep spinning it, you're really not enjoying the game at all.)
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I cant quote that book, but let me touch on a few points, in order:
If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything? :laugh:
My DB9 was just an example, any connector (even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)you want could be used, even numerous USB plugs if you choose, also what Dave said, you wouldn't swap 20 times I day I'd think.
I wasn't exaggerating, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was that rotating a panel and swapping a panel take about the same amount of time, but a swappable panel wouldnt take as long to design and implement.
You notice the DB9 statement, but gloss over the magnet / velcro one. Wouldn't need to open anything to pull up on a panel. Of course I don't know how practical that is, but industrial velcro holds on my control panels on my bartops.
My racing cab is a stand up cab (converted pole position). The best (In My Opinion) 2 player racing games are the twin cabs. While games like Ivan Stewards Off Road and Super Sprint are fun, I prefer more modern racers. I have a 720 degree wheel with buttons on it, and Spy Hunter is pretty great to play. It is ironic that I cant play Pole Position though. All mame needs to do is to code in a "steering center reset" button, so I can center the wheel after a crash and hit a button.
How much more space is a second cab going to take over a single cab with a 6 sided horizontally rotating control panel? 2 cabs side by side is about 5feet by 3 feet and 1 cab can go in a corner. I think your theoretical cabinet takes up around the same amount of room.
I refuse to get into a wico, happ, etc button joystick debate, that's all preference.
"So, your perspective probably comes from your younger age.. where you didnt experience these different games in person."
I'm pretty sure I'm older than you, I'll be 35 in November.
While you were an arcade manager, I was a factory worker in an automotive plant; please stop the arcade to car comparisons. They are convoluted at best.
I thought this was a discussion on why rotating panels arent popular, not a discussion about you.
Sorry for the too long reply everyone :(
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I quite like that 2 panel design CoryBee, it could be a good solution for someone.
I'm sticking with swappable for now, but I'll keep that in mind.
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I think the need for panels is equally proportional to how anal retentive one is about using the EXACT controls.. I'm not saying folks should play Pole Position with a spinner or Pacman with a Happ bat handle 8-way.. but seriously some folks go WAY overboard with how many controls are necessary. I know there are lots of unique games with specialized controls but 3 or 4 panels should cover most everything if laid out right. I guess if somebody wants a dedicated Major Havoc panel who am I to judge? ;D
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Still, I have always wanted to attempt a rotating panel just for the challenge of building it and also, to impress the ladies.. :laugh2:
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Still, I have always wanted to attempt a rotating panel just for the challenge of building it and also, to impress the ladies.. :laugh2:
I may come off as negative in my posts, but that's not my intent. I encourage you to try, and document everything. If you can come up with a way to simplify or something of that nature, it'll make it easier for the next guy. I just feel that next to a generalized single panel (ie NOT frankenpanel) swappable is a better alternative to a rotating one. Feel free to prove me wrong though, I'd love to follow your progress.
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oh if I was going to do a rotating panel it would be WAY down the road.. one of those bucket list sort of things. I'd rather build a dedicated sit down sim cabinet first, then maybe a dedicated vertical cabinet, cocktail table or bartop. I've got plenty of things on my "To Do" list and rotating panels isn't really at the top of it. At this rate I'll be building it for my grandchildren.. and I don't even have children yet. ;D Actually, I'd rather devise a way for a cabinet to be against the way, and have one side open like a door, revealing shelves with swapable panels. That would be more practical assuming you used an LCD monitor and had all that unused empty space. Maybe hold the panels on with quick release hood pins.
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Only skimmed the thread, but a lot of the drawings here resemble the Sybil build.
http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm)
Watch the quicktime movie....if you can. My work computer can't play it. :(
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I had given the idea of a contained system with multiple control panels a thought before and this is what I came up with.
At the push of a button or more preferably switching to the proper gamelist would make control panel one sink to the bottom of the cabinet via a linear actuator while control panel two would come in from the back and lock into place via a separate linear actuator.
As reference to by the quick paint "rendering" (lol)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=134657.0;attach=297332;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=134657.0;attach=297334;image)
I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?
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Only skimmed the thread, but a lot of the drawings here resemble the Sybil build.
http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~mshaker/marks_arcade_001.htm)
Very impressive. Not sure how I've manage to miss this build up to now.
No foot long tron sticks or steering wheels though.
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I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?
Proper way would be to use linear actuator$ and guide rail$.
You might be able to pull it off with power window assemblies, but it will be a challenge to make the CP solid in place.
The CPs in those pics need the bottom part of the monitor bezel attached to them so the joysticks will clear.
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I like this. Now how would a dummy like me make it?
Proper way would be to use linear actuator$ and guide rail$.
You might be able to pull it off with power window assemblies, but it will be a challenge to make the CP solid in place.
The CPs in those pics need the bottom part of the monitor bezel attached to them so the joysticks will clear.
I thought my design was a nice clean way, albeit expensive, to do a multiple cp cabinet. Also gives the option of automation. The cabinet body I made is something I did in paint, has no bearing on reality and looks nothing like any I have made. So you would have to build accordingly.
:cheers:
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Well it's just that all these words like actuators, guide rails, power window assemblies? Uhh what? Needs to muuuuuuuuuuuuch more simpler for me. As Michael Scott said on the Office, "Explain it to me as if I was five."
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If your playing an intense game, the last thing you want is to get killed due to response delays in wireless controls.
Or even batteries running out as your about to kill the end boss
...as well as the whole aspect of having to work out a charging scheme.
Wow when you get entrenched you really dig yourself deep.
I didn't suggest the wireless controller to make the entire thing wireless. I suggested it to limit the wire count.
To use the Rot as an example, if a metal pipe is used as the pivot then split the pipe and isolate each side. Add a couple of spring loaded brushes and a fat cap to smooth the power and you now have a full 360 rotating Rot panel.
To use the Swap design. Use a set of off centered magnets (or use a bridge rectifier) and run a low voltage through the magnets. Or play dangerous and have a bone simple wall socket and plug. Those things have a nearly infinite life span.
either way results in a stupidly simple set up that pales compared to the engineering required to get a Rot panel designed and built.
Or, you can go balls crazy and use an inducting coil to supply power. On the side with the Rot or somewhere along the bottom with a Swap.
No matter what, a battery is not even remotely required or desired.
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Well it's just that all these words like actuators, guide rails, power window assemblies? Uhh what? Needs to muuuuuuuuuuuuch more simpler for me. As Michael Scott said on the Office, "Explain it to me as if I was five."
Actuator is the thing that pushes the control panel (cp1) up and down or (cp2) left and right. The guide rails is what you would put into places that the Control panels would slide on to add stability and strength to the whole system.
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Ok, now I just need someone to build it for me. I have no idea where to begin or get the parts for something like that.
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If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?
You mean, like the custom fully working Starwars yoke I finished?
You mean, like the custom fully working Super Hangon controller I finished? (with a modded magnetic reed switch, cause mame team wouldnt make the games music select screen controllable with a Normal controller)
You mean, like the custom fully working Sinistar joystick I built?
You mean like the Fully Functional 2 player control panel I built with custom dual rollerblade bearing spinner I made?
You mean like the Fully working Disc Brake assy. on the Prototpe rotating CP?
You mean like the metal Kick pole training device I finished?
You mean like the 6 section sandbag unit that the top section can slide or lock in place, that works full?
You mean the Custom built wheel platforms I put on my Drill Press and Tablesaw?
Or maybe you mean the restoration I made on an Ice Cold Beer machine, and sold it for $800 ?
No? How about the Scan I did on a local collectors Discs of Tron backdrop, and sent in to mame?
Maybe your referring to my multi-sliding-parts-table shelf system, about 4' x 4' x 8' ,with about 7 table-shelves?
Thats just a slice of the completed projects Ive done. Of course, getting sicker and having no energy for the last +8 years or so, didnt help.. as I found I became gluten intolerant, as well as can no longer eat eggs, dairy, or soy. That and losing a few jobs at varying times.
My DB9 was just an example, any connector (even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)you want could be used, even numerous USB plugs if you choose, also what Dave said, you wouldn't swap 20 times I day I'd think.
As Ive said, both of those kinds of connectors are not suited to a large number of connect and disconnects. Its not how many times you swap a day. Its the pure number of uses period. And, they are not very smooth nor easy to hook and unhook.
A printer cable has two specific ends. The larger end, that hooks to the printer itself, is more robust, and better suited to the task. But then your still gona have to find the male mate, and solder a ton of tiny pins... and 25 pins still isnt a lot.
I wasn't exaggerating, I think you misunderstood my point. My point was that rotating a panel and swapping a panel take about the same amount of time, but a swappable panel wouldnt take as long to design and implement.
Sorry, but its simply not true. Most swappable panels are not so easy to change over. And since theres no pull out and put away time... your looking at a 2-3 minute saving per change. VS a mere few seconds to rotate.
You notice the DB9 statement, but gloss over the magnet / velcro one. Wouldn't need to open anything to pull up on a panel. Of course I don't know how practical that is, but industrial velcro holds on my control panels on my bartops.
Velcro is a caveman hack. Its will raise your panel... and make it difficult in a large mounting system, to deal with. Plus it will degrade over time and need to be replaced. Theres far better ways to lock panels down.
My racing cab is a stand up cab (converted pole position). The best (In My Opinion) 2 player racing games are the twin cabs. While games like Ivan Stewards Off Road and Super Sprint are fun, I prefer more modern racers. I have a 720 degree wheel with buttons on it, and Spy Hunter is pretty great to play.
It is ironic that I cant play Pole Position though. All mame needs to do is to code in a "steering center reset" button, so I can center the wheel after a crash and hit a button.
Its not Ironic. Trying to play a game like Supersprint that way, would be a horrible way to play that game. The whole fun and challenge behind supersprint, is being able to whip the wheel as fast as you can... let go... then stop it after several turns, at just the correct moment.
Pole position isnt as extreme as that. However, if it were modded to play with a standard wheel.. it would probably be too easy. The difficulty in PP, is mostly the sensitivity of the wheel.
How much more space is a second cab going to take over a single cab with a 6 sided horizontally rotating control panel? 2 cabs side by side is about 5feet by 3 feet and 1 cab can go in a corner. I think your theoretical cabinet takes up around the same amount of room.
That was a comparison to something like Pacmame, vs a standard cab. In my case, even two or 3 cabs would not be enough to have all the controllers available. In my design, it will have a couch like seat for 2 or more players, so its comparable to a dual racer sit down. But it will play much more than just driving games, without needing the space for additional standup cabs.
I refuse to get into a wico, happ, etc button joystick debate, that's all preference.
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Sorry, but its not preference. Its mechanical advantage. Its pure and scientific. You dont see Olympic runners wearing combat boots to a race. Theres a reason for that. ... And thats one of the Biggest reasons why I scrapped my proto.. because I made that realization, and so everything needed to be redesigned all over again.
I'm pretty sure I'm older than you, I'll be 35 in November.
I just passed 40 in August. :'( I also live in a place where the arcades were few and huge... and there was never any video game crash. Ive pretty much played all the classics, and even many rare machines, at that time period... as well as have played many more, in collectors houses and the local game museum.
When I was like 25, I was managing an arcade of 42 or so games, many of which rotated from store to store. Got to see and experience all the various controllers and inner workings of these mechanisms.
While you were an arcade manager, I was a factory worker in an automotive plant; please stop the arcade to car comparisons. They are convoluted at best.
Theres little difference in mechanics of quality arcade assemblies. But beyond that fact, its the actual experience with the games themselves. How they play, feel, and what the special traits of the mechanics do for the the game experience.
Furthermore, assembling parts or pressing a button all day long, isnt the same as diagnosing and trying to repair games and their many mechanical issues. Its not rocket science. But the experiences give you new eyes to how these things really function, and the reasoning behind every facet of the parts and methods that were used.
I thought this was a discussion on why rotating panels arent popular, not a discussion about you.
Sorry for the too long reply everyone :(
My initial discussion was on Rotating control panels and my personal experience with them. You have chosen to challenge, insult, and attack me personally... as always.. and then whine when I put down a return reply.
I think you should consider not wasting others time, as well as your own, by replying to me.. considering you dont know how to be civil, rather than just being a giant Dick.
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If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?
waka waka
Justin?
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Guess we're in petty bicker mode :/ Fuggit, I'll feed you.
If you love the challenge of building things, how come you never finish anything?
Like all the projects I said I finished and never posted pix or build threads to?
yes
As for connectors, I wasnt citing a specific example, just giving a generalized one. I'm sure there's some connector out there that will be useful, even something like cat5 and RJ45 jacks. As for swappable panels not being easy to swap, if your theoretical rotating one is perfect, so is my theoretical swapping one. As for Velcro, you could route away some material, or offset the gap in some other way. The very slight raise on my bartops is not noticeable. I had also said maybe Magnets, but theres TONS of ways to achieve this. Im a network engineer not a mechanical one. I'd more inclined to listen to Neph or Cory before I'd advocate anyone listen to me for something like that. Giving an example doesnt mean Im saying its the best or only choice.
Its not Ironic.
Ok you lost me, please explain to me like I'm a 5 year old why not being able to play Pole Position on a Pole Position machine is not ironic. As for Happ Wico etc, it still boils down to preference. Yeah Athletes might wear the right shoe for the job, but they dont all wear Nike, some wear ADIDAS, Reebok, etc
I just passed 40 in August.
Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.
Furthermore, assembling parts or pressing a button all day long, isnt the same as diagnosing and trying to repair games and their many mechanical issues. Its not rocket science. But the experiences give you new eyes to how these things really function, and the reasoning behind every facet of the parts and methods that were used.
You're right, working in an automotive factory for a decade is a cake walk compared to managing a chuck e cheese.
You have chosen to challenge, insult, and attack me personally... as always.. and then whine when I put down a return reply.
I didnt see a single insult in anything I posted, a playful jab with the"how come you never finish anything with that sinister SMILEY FACE at the end. If you can quote me in this thread insulting you (this reply doesnt count, neither does Xeth, thats more of an inside joke than an insult!) I'll gladly apologize and mean it. I for one think Ive been pretty civil. The bulk of my replies has been about the the subject at hand, not you.
:cheers:
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Not having build info up doesnt mean they were not completed. A lot of stuff I took down, due to people who wanted to be negative, bash and insult me. Im not the only one, and I question whether to share anything new I build as a result.
As for connectors, I wasnt citing a specific example, just giving a generalized one. I'm sure there's some connector out there that will be useful, even something like cat5 and RJ45 jacks.
I was stating my knowledge and experience with connectors, based on your theory of what should work well. As a network engineer, Im somewhat surprised to hear you appoint RJ45. They can be notoriously painful to plug and unplug... and cat5 only has 8wires. Far better to use a printer cable with 25 pins, even if its not perfect for slide-ablity connection.
The point being, we were discussing the ease of control panel swapping.. as well as the challenges of the rotating cp vs the swappables... and even the modulars. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Each has its costs, space, and cost differences. Each has a valid reason why they may be utilized... even if you do may not understand or agree with it.
As for swappable panels not being easy to swap, if your theoretical rotating one is perfect, so is my theoretical swapping one.
This has nothing to do with perfect. It has to do with lost time & manual labor efforts. Even with a quick externally triggered spring lock control panel... you still have to set the old panel down, open the cab, dig out and lift the correct panel without grinding the sides up, damaging the corners or controllers, then lift up to install, and finally, lift and slide put the other panel back into the cabinet.
A rotator does not require any furniture moving (lifting of masses and swapping). Its an effortless and quick action.. rather than a chore, to swap controls.
This isnt Theoretical. Its factual.
As for Velcro, you could route away some material, or offset the gap in some other way. The very slight raise on my bartops is not noticeable. I had also said maybe Magnets, but theres TONS of ways to achieve this. Im a network engineer not a mechanical one. I'd more inclined to listen to Neph or Cory before I'd advocate anyone listen to me for something like that. Giving an example doesnt mean Im saying its the best or only choice.
Sorry, but the way you posted made it sound like you were an expert on what to do, and why.
Magnets may be an interesting thing to try.. so long as they are shielded so they dont erase your bank cards.
But magnets are also tough to remove without a wedge-unlock mechanism. Which if your going that far, might as well just make a cabled release - auto spring-lock setup.
Velcro may be ok for a bartop.. but magnets would probably be better than velcro, in that they wont degrade nor pick up gunk like velcos crud-collecting fuzz.
Quote from: Xiaou2 on Yesterday at 04:20:49 pm
Its not Ironic.
please explain to me like I'm a 5 year old why not being able to play Pole Position on a Pole Position machine
hah. Sorry, I breezed over that it was a PP machine. It surely is sad that PP cant be played. Why not put a spinner on it? A spinner takes up little space, could be mounted horizontally on the front of the CP, and would play 1000x better than button or code-hacked pot wheels.
Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.
Im not the one launching childish insults and attacks, so I believe you should consider than when reviewing your own age :P
Also, as I said, it was a guess... due to your responses. Then again, I played Robotron as a kid.. never knowing what was under the CP... nor even getting good enough to realize why that was important. At that time, it wasnt one of my Favs due to how young I was.. and how it ate all my lives in sheer seconds. Games like Sinistar however, even being very difficult.. I clearly remember how the special controller on it made a huge impact with accuracy, over other typical analog games. Even without seeing under the hood.. you could easily feel it.
I also didnt understand leaf switches, even back then. Didnt like them till I finally learned, within maybe the last 14 yrs, how to use them properly, to get the advantages the attain, in certain games.
You're right, working in an automotive factory for a decade is a cake walk compared to managing a chuck e cheese.
Never claimed that at all. Some Factory work sucks. I used to work in a PCB factory, doing a monotonous job of lithography.
I was claiming that having mechanical experience with the actual machines and controllers, gives you a certain level of awareness and experience that others may not have. Hence the reason, you may not realize the value of a certain custom specialty controller, over a generic so/so controller.
doesnt count, neither does Xeth
Theres a little thing about jabs.. is that if you deliver enough of them, eventually your probably going to end up eating a cross.
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Holy ---fudgesicle---, act your age then. Ok that's me being the aforementioned giant dick. However Im only slightly younger than you, and I lucked out enough to play a great number of real arcade machines in their prime which just disproves your theory that Im so young I didnt get to.
Im not the one launching childish insults and attacks, so I believe you should consider than when reviewing your own age :P
:blowup: Okay, so I'm not the only one who assumed you were in your early twenties then. Because with age comes less care about what random people think of you. Plus a lot of other things you say just makes you seem way younger than 40. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but it's something you may want to keep in mind.
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Sorry, but its simply not true. Most swappable panels are not so easy to change over. And since theres no pull out and put away time... your looking at a 2-3 minute saving per change. VS a mere few seconds to rotate.
2-3 minutes per change? I have a prototype swappable system I use for CP mockups and controls testing, and it takes maybe 30 seconds* to swap a panel, if that.
2-3 minutes to swap a panel sounds like a broken design to me...
* In the interest of Science(TM) I just timed it. It actually took only 15 seconds to swap a panel. That included removing/storing the existing panel on a shelf under my test bench, retrieving the new panel, and setting it into place. Now I could see it taking a bit longer on a proper cab, especially depending on how the panels are stored/connected. But if it takes longer than 60 seconds, then that seems like a broken design to me.
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Not that I need to point out the obvious here but.. once you factor in all the pros and cons much of what you guys are arguing about comes down to personal preference. In that case its pretty pointless to argue. The amount of time it would take to unlock a rot panel versus swap a panel really is negligible.. 2 minutes.. 5 minutes.. does it really matter? The point is to enjoy these games and hopefully socialize with friends and family in the process.. If swapping a panel affords you the time to share a story, talk smack, grab another beer, etc.. its really not time wasted ;D Granted, this thread IS about discussing the merits of rotating panels but getting into a pissing contest isn't really getting either one of you any where so just shake hands and agree to disagree ;)
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(even LPT if pin count is the issue, but 9 pins is 8 wires and a ground, which is actually enough for a joystick, start, and 3 buttons)
As Ive said, both of those kinds of connectors are not suited to a large number of connect and disconnects. Its not how many times you swap a day. Its the pure number of uses period. And, they are not very smooth nor easy to hook and unhook.
A printer cable has two specific ends. The larger end, that hooks to the printer itself, is more robust, and better suited to the task. But then your still gona have to find the male mate, and solder a ton of tiny pins... and 25 pins still isnt a lot.
LPT = Parallel Port = "printer cable"
25 pins is a lot, that's 24 connections and a common ground. That's enough for 2players with an 8 way ( 8 ) and the SF layout (12) and 2 starts and 2 coins(4) total (24). I wouldnt think that many panels would require more than that many connections. You could also have some sort of admin panel that has coin and start and eliminate the need for those, or even coin mechs instead of coin buttons, or shifted keys
Derail warning!
As for jabs, you def need thicker skin. Chad doesnt pop a fuse when people bring up the MDF question, I dont get pissy when people bring up me losing 1 of my 3 pole position cabs off the back of a truck. If you cant laugh at yourself and your mistakes what can you laugh at? Also Lennox Lewis went 42(32)-2-1 all he ever did was jab, last unified champ I believe but Im not a big boxing fan. Also, not having build info up means you aren't helping the community. My Pole position conversion isnt the best but it shows what you can do with converting a PP into a Multi racer, I hope one day it encourages someone to do what I did, only do it better.
And you may not have seen the panel, but I dont think a spinner would work. I cant mount it in the front, because 1 its be impossible to use and 2 the metal forms a V with a hinge at the bottom and I wouldnt want to drill through all that and make de-conversion impossible. Cant mount it on the CP itself, theres just no room with the 4 way shifter there.
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=296121;image)
/derail
shponglefan:
Thanks for giving it a real world test , I figured "about a minute" and I think on an actual cab thats prolly about right. Thing is I figure about the same time frame for a rotating panel, I just figured it would take a longer time to design and build the rotating panel over swappable ones. Other factor I considered was if you suddenly have a hankering to make a new panel you wouldn't have to either axe an existing one from your rotation (PUN!) or redesign your "rotator" to compensate for another panel. I guess thats a very round about way of saying the modular or swappable is much more flexible.
Brandon:
You are dead on balls it does come down to preference. There is a difference between "argue" and "debate" , I wouldnt want someone to start making a rotating panel thinking its easy peasy then be stuck with an unfinished cab and be either broke or discouraged from trying again. If you start with just a panel, and later expand to a swappable one, it just makes more sense to me. Im a bigger fan of multiple machines, preferably dedicated ones :)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=297533;image)
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Im a bigger fan of multiple machines, preferably dedicated ones :)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=297533;image)
+1
Can't wait until I get a bigger house of my own. Huge home cinema + Arcades! Mostly MAME I guess, but driving, fighting, etc. on different cabinets.
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Same here! My wife said our next house will have a basement and a dedicated arcade. Right now, all I have room for is two stand up cabs and a pool table.
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The best things of multiple arcade games is the music of all games running at once!
All the beeps and blurps is what sells it for me.