The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Consoles => Topic started by: Zrooney on August 30, 2013, 09:47:56 pm
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So, I come to this forum once again with a conundrum on my hands. This time it is not a Dreamcast but something a lot more expensive, a PS3. I bought this 60GB model a couple of months back from an auction for $120 (with a starting bid of $110, i thought it would have worked). Long story short I got it home and proceeded to find out I blew $110 on a nice paperweight, so i let it sit in my basement while i attempted to flip it on Craigslist for $50. No one showed up, so i swallowed the repair bill and got it fixed at iFixit, which did a re-flow and not a reball, at a mall near my house. Got it back today and the console lasted all of 5 minutes before it YLOD again. I am going back tomorrow and see if I can get my money back, which is almost $70. I just really want to know how permanent a re-ball is and if they are worth the money and time to send out the console to a repair center.
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You've spent too much as it is, expect to see the PS3 to explode on ebay and craigslist, everyones selling them to finance the PS4.
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You have to decide how much it's worth to you. If it were me I'd use it as a learning opportunity. Take it apart and see if you can fix it yourself.
If it makes you feel better They are overrated...My PS3 has been in the closet for 6 months.
That sucks though.
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Just reflow it once then take a trip to Wallymart or Asda and stock up on the mineral/baby oil.
Find a nice fish tank and dump the baby oil in the tank. Get some gravel, fake plants and a decent pump. :woot
Playstation 3 in mineral oil - Frankenstation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFNQ7O7ipfI#)
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Thanks for all the feedback. So far the PS3 is in limbo. I had to drop it off again so the guy who originally repaired it can either fix it or refund me. :( When I get the PS3 or my money back, whichever one comes first at this point. I will most likely try to sell it, seeing as prices are going to plummet with PS4 launching. I already have an 80gb Ps3 and a PS2. I just wanted the backwards compatibility and ability to play in Hd.
I am probably going to attempt the PS2 emulator just so i can play my Ps2 games in Hd. I just need a way to figure out how to get it to work. Last time i tried it i got to the splash-screen, but the game i was testing did not work and booted to a scrambled screen.
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To answer one of your original questions, a reflow is not very permanent. The YLOD usually happens because a solder joint to one of the CPU or GPU pins cracks due to heating and cooling stress and connection is lost. This happens too often because lead-free solder was used due to new environmental regulations. Reflowing just re-melts the solder joints, so any cracked ones will form back together, but it's just a matter of time before one will crack again.
A reball, on the other hand, involves completely removing all the lead free solder under the CPU and GPU and replacing it will more reliable traditional leaded solder. This is a much more permanent repair, but it much more expensive, and it is becoming hard to find a reliable place to perform this.
Anyhow, the YLOD can happen with any PS3 model. We are just seeing it first with the original 60GB's because it happens over time. A reball tech told me that the slimmer models run way hotter than the fat ones (makes sense, probably not a good idea to squeeze the same hardware into a smaller space), so I don't know if switching to one of them is a good idea in the long-term.
There a few preventative measures you can take to extend the system's life a little without reballing or reflowing, most importantly replacing the thermal paste on the CPU and GPU, switching to the most efficient fan, and the most efficient power supply.
BTW, the only real advantage to the oldest models is the availability of four USB slots without a hub. The PS2 emulation is at least partially software based, and adds significant input lag compared to a real PS2. You will likely get a significant amount of lag trying to emulate on the PC as well, not to mention compatibility issues.
I would question whether it is worth it to play PS2 games in HD. Even if it is upscaled you still have a low polygon count and rough textures. In my opinion it looks better with the natural smoothing of a CRT, as it was meant for during design. Most of these games run in 480i/480p, and look best on a display which excels with these resolutions.
What you may end up with is emulation lag, compounded with the input lag of a flat panel display. My preference is to play PS3 games on a confirmed minimal-lag panel, and PS2 games on a real PS2 on a lag-free CRT. Save your PS3's remaining lifespan just for playing PS3 games.
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I would question whether it is worth it to play PS2 games in HD. Even if it is upscaled you still have a low polygon count and rough textures. In my opinion it looks better with the natural smoothing of a CRT, as it was meant for during design. Most of these games run in 480i/480p, and look best on a display which excels with these resolutions.
Check out PCSX2 (www.pcsx2.net (http://www.pcsx2.net)) and some of the screenies and videos in HD, they look a ton better then just "upscaled". I played through all of "Tales of Abyss" in HD on the emulator and it was pretty great.
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What is it doing besides upscaling and smoothing? Improving actual texture resolutions requires a huge amount of work on a per-game basis. I'm not saying that what is happening is not an improvement if that's your taste, but what are you sacrificing for it?
I'd just like to see the lag figures for that emulator, and again there's the added lag of switching to an HD screen as well. It wouldn't really matter for an RPG like Tales of Abyss, but I imagine he'll want to play arcade-style games on his cab, in which case responsive controls will be critical.
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instead of basing it on my opinion, just snag the emulator and give it a whirl. I only mentioned abyss because I dumped 50+ hours into it without an issue. I played tons of other games without any issue just none as much as that one. You dont need ISOs you can play games from your DVD tray. Soul Calibur looks amazeballs.
All this lag talk I just dont get. As long as it doesnt interfere with playing the game it doesnt matter. I dont play every game like Im in a Street Fighter competition.
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Thanks for all the help gentlemen. I understood the difference of the Reball/Reflow, but no one on the internet could seem to decide if it was really permanent. Thanks for rCade for that :). At any rate i did get PSX2PC running last night as well as PPSSPP. I will probably come back here with an opinion on whether the emulator is laggy, but I need to dump my PS2 games. From the few shots of Gundamn I had up on my computer, it looked a hell of a lot better than playing it natively on a PS2. I already have a PS2 with a Trinitron, but I just wanted to see if PS2 games unconverted really looked that good.
Thanks for all your help so far gentlemen, and I will be sure to add to the debate!
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From a topic on LCD TV's in the monitor/video section:
Are you familiar with the importance of input lag? Unlike CRT's, all LCD's have measurable input lag. Explanation here:
http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/ (http://www.displaylag.com/what-is-input-lag-the-breakdown/)
Input lag is highly detrimental to gameplay. No matter what type of game, if there is anything that you have to react to unexpectedly, any kind of delay will degrade your ability to react. There is lag in MAME's emulation, lag in the LCD, and your own response time. None of these "cancel out," it all adds up.
You may not immediately notice the difference this causes if you don't have a low-lag setup that you're used to too, but whether you're aware of it or not input lag will cause you to not do as well in the game as you would with less lag. It will also cause a general feeling of less responsiveness from the controls. If you play an emulated arcade game on a poorly configured setup, then go play it on a real cabinet, you may notice how much "tighter" the controls feel on the cabinet.
People will try and tell you that it's not noticeable, but this is usually because they either don't know what they're missing, or they don't want to believe that there is something they're missing and that work is required to fix it.
Lag in MAME can be reduced significantly by using the right build with the right settings. As for the display, if you don't want to use a CRT, low lag LCD's are available. Most LCD's lag several frames, and are very poor for gaming. Manufacturers know this, but they are primarily focused on making TV shows and movies look as good as possible, as that is what their primary market wants. Sometimes there are game modes available, but this doesn't necessarily guarantee low enough lag for proper gaming. Input lag measurements aren't advertised (response rate is NOT a measure of input lag), so you need to know the model numbers of confirmed low-lag LCD's to get something appropriate for gaming.
Try starting here:
http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/ (http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/)
This lists displays ordered by input lag, measured in milliseconds (ms). When running at 60Hz, meaning 60 frames per second, each frame is 16ms. I wouldn't recommend any display that lags more than two frames (32ms) for gaming, especially when adding MAME's input lag. With several frames of lag you can start to feel it just moving around in-game.
So yeah, whether you realize it or not, any amount of input lag will cause you to play a little worse than you naturally would in any game requiring reflexes. Some people aren't aware of this, but once you know that there are ways to minimize this I can't understand why you wouldn't. It doesn't matter if you're not a tournament level player. You could just be goofing around in Castlevania or something, and the lag will add just a bit of unfair and unnecessary difficulty. If you're right on the edge, it could mean the difference between beating the boss or game over.
Testing this PS2 emulator and being able to report any meaningful results would require wiring an LED in series with a button and filming the delay between a button press and on-screen response with a high-speed camera and comparing the measurement between the a real PS2 and the emulator, using the same button action in the same game. If you think that's over the top and unnecessary, consider that minimization of lag is one of the top priorities in GroovyMAME development right now, and Calamity, Dr. Venom, and a few others are using the high-speed camera method to confirm progress. I've used this method myself to test various displays and video processors.
I'm not going to test this particular emulator myself because I don't have a personal interest in console emulation. I prefer to stick with real hardware, making an exception for MAME, largely due to MAME's ability to generate authentic video at native resolution and refresh rate, GroovyMAME's minimal lag, and of course the high cost of arcade PCB's (not that I'm not planning to buy any, but I certainly can't build a respectable collection the way I can with NES games for example). However, for anyone that is interested in this (or any) emulator, I would highly recommend testing it and posting your results.
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So yeah, whether you realize it or not, any amount of input lag will cause you to play a little worse than you naturally would in any game requiring reflexes. Some people aren't aware of this, but once you know that there are ways to minimize this I can't understand why you wouldn't. It doesn't matter if you're not a tournament level player. You could just be goofing around in Castlevania or something, and the lag will add just a bit of unfair and unnecessary difficulty. If you're right on the edge, it could mean the difference between beating the boss or game over.
Here is where I agree and disagree at the same time. You say any lag effects you, I think thats a little too black and white of an answer. millions of a second arent going to make you lose. However I can agree that if you hit the button and half a second later the guy finally punches, then yeah, Im with you.
I am a little curious about why Abyss doesn't count because its an RPG. You realize that the fights are real time like a 3D streets of Rage, where you can dodge, back step, jump, parry, attack, cast magic etc without using any menus, right?
Tales Of The Abyss HD (PCSX2 Emulator DX11 Native6x) Zao Ruins (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkI-FuAEsDw#ws)
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I'm sure that you have experienced instances in games where you just barely don't make it. Let's say you must react quickly and dodge an enemy attack or projectile or something like that. You react and your character starts moving, and you almost make it, but the enemy/projectile/whatever just barely skims you, and you lose some health or maybe even die. This kind of thing happens all the time when you're playing a tough game.
If it was a really close call, even a single frame of lag could have made that difference. Even if your own human reaction time remains the same, removing just one frame of input lag would cause your reaction to register with the game that much sooner, saving you from frustration.
Then take into consider that emulation commonly lags several frames, depending on how well it was written and what methods are used for v-sync, and most LCD's lag several frames as well.
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First off, I'm not entirely sure you can cite yourself as a source, but I laughed.
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I hate that phrase, it ranks right up there with "it is what it is" but we just arent going to see eye to eye on this. In *some* games a frame of lag can be the difference between winning and losing, but other than Ninja Gaiden Black and some bullet hell games, I dont think many are made with that tight of a window in mind. This of course excludes the aforementioned fighting games and their crazy frame count cancel stuffs. Now lag to the point where every action is delayed after the press of a button Im with you on whole heartedly, but I just dont see a single frame resulting in a game over.
I dont think human response time can be counted as lag , thats just called reaction time.
I guess my issue is I don't get your math. You say emulators lag "several frames" (which I'll take as 3 to 5) and LCDs lag "several frames" as well (which means another 3 to 5). I don't know what you're using but I don't think Ive ever experienced 6 to 10 frame lag on a game, except when I used to play Super FirePro Wrestling XP on SNES96 on my P75.
My favorite part of the post you ask?
.........or they don't want to believe that there is something they're missing and that work is required to fix it.
Then how you state its too much work for you to test it :cheers:
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Well, emulation vs real hardware aside, I did get to test the PSX2PC emulator with Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 4, and it really does look nice. I have gotten it 99% configured, but I need your help Malenko on an issue with the emulator.
Whenever I play fullscreen (So a 1920X1080 resolution) the emulator stutters every 5 minutes or so, and then it goes back to normal and plays smoothly. When I got to a windowsed 640X480 screen, the stuttering disappears. Obviously the stuttering is due to the resolution I have it playing on, but my computer is more than capable. Specs are
Intel i7 Second Gen @ 3.00GHZ
8GB DDR3 RAM
Radeon HD 6950 Graphics card with 2GB of memory.
I don't think it is my system specs that are slowing it down, but a configuration issue. I have everything set to default in the settings.
It happens about every 5 minutes or so, the audio will stutter and the game will kinda freeze, but as soon as it happens it goes back to full 60FPS. I am at a loss as to what is doing this. Just for your information, I also have everything rendered on my graphics card using DX11. Do you have any ideas of why this is doing this?
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First off, I'm not entirely sure you can cite yourself as a source, but I laughed.
I just didn't want to reword a long statement which I had already typed up recently, so I quoted that post in which I cited some other sources.
In *some* games a frame of lag can be the difference between winning and losing, but other than Ninja Gaiden Black and some bullet hell games, I dont think many are made with that tight of a window in mind.
Regardless of genre, any game in which reflexes are critical has the potential for instances where any amount of lag will be the difference between winning and losing. A close call, by definition, means that any slight difference will change the outcome one way or the other. In a challenging game, close calls will be frequent.
Of course some genres will present more instances where reflexes are critical than others. Some of my favorites are fighters, shmups, and 2-D platformers, three categories in which responsive control is absolutely paramount, so you can see my concern with the matter. I think my argument is also equally valid for other genres, like FPS or RTS, but applying it to racing games would be more difficult (depending on the game), and it would not even hold water for others, such as traditional turn-based RPG's.
Now lag to the point where every action is delayed after the press of a button Im with you on whole heartedly, but I just dont see a single frame resulting in a game over.
Any amount of lag at all means that every action IS delayed after the press of a button... by that amount!
I dont think human response time can be counted as lag , thats just called reaction time.
What you call it is semantics.
event happens in game engine -> delay -> event is rendered to video and display receives video signal -> delay -> game event is visible to player on-screen -> delay -> player reacts to game event
As you can see, there is a long series of events which takes place in between an event happening in a game and the player reacting to it. Human reaction time is simply the last period of delay before a button is pressed.
It is up to the game developer to minimize the delay between events in the game engine and rendering to video. This period of delay will also be increased when emulation is used. It is up to the developer of that emulator to minimize this effect, and also up to the player to configure the emulator's video and other settings, as well as the emulation hardware in general, in order to minimize it as well.
When using a traditional CRT, the time period between receiving a video signal and being able to see it on-screen relatively instantaneous, but with the average flat panel it is a significant period of delay. So it is up to the player to choose a confirmed low-lag display to minimize this.
The goal of building a proper low-lag gaming setup is to minimize all these other forms of delay ahead of time, so that your own reaction time becomes the only significant contributor of delay during gameplay. That way whether you fail or succeed in the game is only attributable to your own skill and reflexes, never to unnecessary and unavoidable hindrances built into the system.
This is the nature of fair challenge versus cheap and unfair difficulty.
I guess my issue is I don't get your math. You say emulators lag "several frames" (which I'll take as 3 to 5) and LCDs lag "several frames" as well (which means another 3 to 5). I don't know what you're using but I don't think Ive ever experienced 6 to 10 frame lag on a game, except when I used to play Super FirePro Wrestling XP on SNES96 on my P75.
Actually, that is quite an accurate guess.
There are plenty of games in vanilla MAME which lag up to 5 frames or more, while 2 or 3 most is common and 1 is rare. For the average emulator, it may not quite be 5, but the method of v-sync has much to do with it, as triple buffering can add up to 3 frames on its own. 1 frame is practically rock--bottom for any software-based emulation. Calamity and Dr. Venom are doing great things to achieve sub-1-frame performance, making it an extremely viable option. The only thing I know of that is faster is shmupMAME, but that uses hacks to the emulation which remain controversial.
As for displays, if you look at the display lag database I linked to, which lists a good sample size of displays including most of the new models available from 2013, you will see that the average lag is about 2.5 frames when when looking at all displays, and closer to 3.5 when looking at just TV's. The worst examples are in fact nearly 5 frames. I should also clarify that all this applies to all flat-panel technology, not just LCD's. I've used the term LCD a little too loosely at times.
These numbers are all facts, not opinions, just read up on GroovyMAME, shmupMAME, and the display lag resources I linked to. Also, milliseconds means thousandths of a second, not millionths, which is an immense difference. At 60Hz, a frame of video is one sixtieth of a second; 1/60, not 1/1,000,000.
In any case, the theme with emulation and displays is the same. Both present the potential for a significant amount of lag. Being well informed, selecting the best possible TV, the best possible emulator, and choosing the best settings can all contribute to minimizing lag to the point that it is negligible. However, denying the problem and leaving this to chance will most often result in a lot of lag, which will hinder your gameplay to a degree whether you realize it or not.
My favorite part of the post you ask?
.........or they don't want to believe that there is something they're missing and that work is required to fix it.
Then how you state its too much work for you to test it :cheers:
I think your suggestion of irony on this matter is poorly reasoned. Whether it's my controls, my displays, my MAME setups, etc., I've done a ton of research to ensure minimal lag in every aspect of gaming that I'm involved in, and I've taken actual measurements using the high speed camera method to confirm results and make comparisons.
However, this PS2 emulator is not something I will ever use, so why I would put in the time to test it? I already have a real PS2, running in RGB video on a lagless CRT, already interfaced with arcade controls, and I can afford to buy real copies of the PS2 games I'm interested in. What I'm suggesting is that someone who will actually use it should go ahead and test it.
How lag works, where it comes from, and its implications are all matters of simple reason and fact. I concede that whether or not it should all be important to the player is my own opinion, but I've laid out my case. :soapbox:
No ill-will is intended, but I do enjoy a good scholarly debate. :cheers: :cheers:
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no needs for walls of text, I see your point, I think you see mine, they just dont match up and thats fine. There is no ill will on my side either, I just feel bad for clouding up this poor guys broken PS3 thread.
Also, I use PS2 emulation for a couple reasons. 1 play fan translated games/ games never released in USA I could other wise never play. 2 Play games I actually own at a higher resolution and with save states. 3 Play games I own with scratched discs. and 4 Play games Ive always wanted to try and cant find. I guess 5 would be "Play games in my office while my fiancee plays farmville and candy crush",lol. I still have my PS2 (FAT) hooked up to a CRT, and time crisis 2 almost ever leaves the drive bay...... such a great game :cheers:
However, this PS2 emulator is not something I will ever use, so why I would put in the time to test it? I already have a real PS2, running in RGB video on a lagless CRT, already interfaced with arcade controls, and I can afford to buy real copies of the PS2 games I'm interested in. What I'm suggesting is that someone who will actually use it should go ahead and test it.
I'm merely advocating that someone with the equipment and know how do it for the community. If I had the gear, I would, Im only lacking almost everything required to do it ;)
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no needs for walls of text
:lol Well I did say I enjoy a good debate. Anyhow, I'm about typed out now, don't worry.
Regarding import/rare/patched games, have you considered modding the PS2 so you can burn these to a disc and play on your CRT?
This is what I do with the Dreamcast, and for older systems I picked up a ROM burner and started making repro carts. I've haven't looked into this type of thing for the PS2 though, so I don't know how much of a PITA it is.
I'm merely advocating that someone with the equipment and know how do it for the community. If I had the gear, I would, Im only lacking almost everything required to do it ;)
Setting up the equipment is easy. More and more cameras have a 120fps or 240fps video mode. Check the settings on your video camera; you may be surprised, as I was with my old Nikon digital photo camera. As for wiring up the LED, just cut any button's connection with ground, and bridge that connection with an LED. You can do it with any kind of controller.
The time consuming part is researching the emulator's video settings (which is a lot more interesting for someone who actually uses it), trying to figure out the best configuration, taking several samples to compare and confirm among settings and resolution changes, and benchmarking the monitor somehow at those resolutions to account for it's lag. It's just more than I can make time for right now, sorry.
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My video camera, much like the ladies man's car uhhh doesnt exist.
fish sandwich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szFzCphJz4o#)
Hows about you make me a repro SNES cart for Super Firero Wrestling XP :)
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You know you can play the SFC cart in your snes right? You just need to cut out the tabs in the cartridge slot.
Do you need it translated? Send me the SFC cart, a patched rom, and some money and I can do it. Make me an offer. You could just use a donor SNES cart, but the SFC cart for that game is cheap, and saves you the trouble of making a label.
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I can never find X Premium at a good price. X is like 10 bucks, but X Premium is like 30 + shipping :/
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Oh, saw it for $30 on eBay, and figured that's cheap enough not to buy a donor and deal with making labels.