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Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Nephasth on July 20, 2012, 11:10:50 am

Title: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: Nephasth on July 20, 2012, 11:10:50 am
Sometimes vendors sell very similar products. Like pushbuttons. Last year, markronz did an excellent side by side by side review (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=112752.msg1205236#msg1205236) of the similar convex LED pushbuttons that GGG, Ultimarc, and Paradise sell. Now, those three vendors all sell "frosted" translucent concave pushbuttons. It would be great to get another side by side by side review of all three of these products. Is anyone willing to pick up one (or more) of each and share your thoughts about them with all of us?


(http://www.groovygamegear.com/Store_Images/CLASSX_SPLASH.jpg) (http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=73&products_id=238)

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(http://www.ultimarc.com/images/classicrgb_logo.jpg)
(http://www.ultimarc.com/images/classicrgb_side.jpg) (http://www.ultimarc.com/ClassicRGB.html)

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Hoku IL RGB
(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/1221-large/hoku-il-rgb-pushbutton-psl-l.jpg) (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-translucent-buttons/579-hoku-il-rgb-pushbutton-psl-l.html)
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: Mysterioii on July 20, 2012, 12:02:11 pm
This is one of those things where I suspect they're all pretty much functionally identical, it just boils down to just exactly how much light they pass and MAYBE if there's the slightest bit of tint to any of them.  My guess is whichever you pick would be fine.  I probably would pick one and stick with it for the whole cab rather than mixing them up, just in case there were minor differences.

Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: RandyT on July 20, 2012, 01:09:16 pm
Quote from: Mysterioii on July 20, 2012, 12:02:11 pm
This is one of those things where I suspect they're all pretty much functionally identical, it just boils down to just exactly how much light they pass and MAYBE if there's the slightest bit of tint to any of them.  My guess is whichever you pick would be fine.  I probably would pick one and stick with it for the whole cab rather than mixing them up, just in case there were minor differences.

Other than the possible lighting performance you mentioned, there are some others.  Their importance will, of course, be based on the expectations of the builder.

Shape and style
Lighting methodology
Installation
Built-in switch compatibility

AFAIK, the other two are IL's "knock off" of our original Electric ICE design offered with each of the other vendor's approaches to lighting them, as they are from IL's standard pushbutton molds, and do not have in-built features for lighting units.

An interesting piece of trivia is that I approached IL to produce these for us many years ago when attempting to make this type of button available to the community.  They would have nothing to do with it, regardless of how adamantly I tried.  So we worked with a US-based injection molding company active in producing arcade parts during the classic arcade era, and had our EI1 version made from existing molds, modifying each part for the lighting.  We are still working with that same US company to do the manufacturing of our EI2 buttons, with everything to our design, and from our own molds. 

RandyT
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: jace055 on July 20, 2012, 09:23:25 pm
I just picked up one of groovygamegear's and a few of the different options that paradise arcade sells for this exact reason.  I'm waiting for a button from ultimarc to finish out the collection before I review all of them.  I need to send divemaster a PM to see if he carries them.

I had planed on doing this myself because of the significant investment required to convert all 34 buttons on my control panel.  I'm about to spend almost $300 on just buttons and I want the best. 

Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: Nephasth on July 20, 2012, 09:26:15 pm
Quote from: jace055 on July 20, 2012, 09:23:25 pm
I just picked up one of groovygamegear's and a few of the different options that paradise arcade sells for this exact reason.  I'm waiting for a button from ultimarc to finish out the collection before I review all of them.  I need to send divemaster a PM to see if he carries them.

I had planed on doing this myself because of the significant investment required to convert all 34 buttons on my control panel.  I'm about to spend almost $300 on just buttons and I want the best. 

Great! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts about them all! :cheers:
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: yotsuya on July 20, 2012, 09:50:44 pm
Quote from: jace055 on July 20, 2012, 09:23:25 pm
I'm about to spend almost $300 on just buttons and I want the best. 



 :dizzy:
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: DeLuSioNal29 on July 20, 2012, 10:23:08 pm
I'd like to add that customer service should also be considered.  I have Eice buttons from GGG and Randy has always been great with any requests or issue I had with the stuff I've bought from him.

DeLuSioNaL29
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: mcseforsale on July 20, 2012, 11:59:49 pm
I have 16 GGG EI2s on my CP along with 4 Happs.  2 of the Happs are the clears and 2 are the 1 and 2 players (which are now almost "playerless").

I have 6 GGG EI2s for each 8-way, 2 for the dedicated 4-way and one in each "3-cluster" as a left and right mouse button for games like Golden Tee.

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_2782.jpg)

The lighting option for the GGG EI2s are amazingly well built little devices.  Basically a PCB with a 4-line ribbon cable hanging off each with the common (-) marked in red.

Closeup:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_8927.jpg)

Size comparison:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_5788.jpg)

The PCB snaps into the bottom of the button with a little authority and they don't come loose.  They actually sit beneath the swich since the switch is actuated by the tabs surrounding them:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_9975.jpg)

Now, one of the discussions should be customer service.  Basically, I wanted to be able to light just blue and set it up for a future upgrade to an LEDWiz (Santa, you listening, you fat bastard?).  RandyT suggested putting all leads to a euro-block and jumping the like-colors and picking one to power.  When I get my LEDWiz, I will simply make 2 24 wire ribbons and connect them to the back of these blocks, removing these colored wires.  It was an excellent suggestion and allowed me to continue with my planned-neat wiring job:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_2398.jpg)

The lighting is interesting.  These are my first "milky white" LED buttons, so I found it interesting that in full daylight, the centers of the buttons would take the color of the LED that's currently lit, but the edges stayed milky white:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_9770.jpg)

In the dark, it reverses and the edges become the most colored and the centers begin looking more milky white:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_4020.jpg)

Also, they are bright enough to allow some edge lighting for my CP Plexi:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_9078.jpg)

In terms of performance and knowing I only have the 2 brands to compare, there are significant differences.  First, I ordered the GGG EI2s with the standard light-actuation switch.  RandyT told me that these switches (along with the actual button design) allow for a lighter touch on the button, eliminating the spike that most other cherry-type switches require and therefor cutting down on some of the fatigue during long play.  

I'm not so sure of this, but I will say that these definately require less force to reach the click.  But, with this, they seem to be just a bit more "toy" like, where the Happ button and Cherry switch is more of a click.  I suppose this is an excellent compromise between leaf switching and cherry-type switching, but it almost feels like the nylon is a bit thinner and lighter.  I've never played anything but Happs, so this may just be me.  None of the people that play the machine mention it.  But, the Happs are definately heavier.

One other issue I noticed was that the switches tend to rattle around in the mounts.  After consulting with RandyT, he said just take the switch out, squeeze the two ears together and put the switch back in.  I haven't had to do this yet as none of the switches have popped out, just an observation.  And, with my wiring, I don't really want to move stuff around if I don't have to:
(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_0748.jpg)
  

The multiple switch mount is ingenious.  It allows you to orient the button the way you want to, then install the switch mount.  They click in with a little authority and have never moved.  Putting the nutz on the buttons is much easier than with a solid switch mount like the Happs.  

I've had one switch get sticky.  There's been nothing spilled on the CP, so I'd imagine its just the switch rattling out just a little.  

All in all, these things are amazing.  From the PCB/LED to the switch mount, the thought that went into them is brilliant in its elegance.  I've not tried using a "standard" GGG button, so I suspect that the "milky white" nylon has to be a little thinner, which makes them seem just a bit more toy-like.  With the standard switch, I've had no problems with them for the last 3 months of continuous in-garage 6-pack play.  

RandyT is an excellent vendor who really took the time to answer any questions immediately and seems to have a love for this hobby of ours.  The GGG EI2s make my CP and indeed, make the machine. I probably won't ever go back to Happ.

(http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p191/mcseforsale/MAME_CAB/IMG_5567.jpg)

YMMV,
AJ




Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: armi0024 on July 22, 2012, 04:05:29 pm
I'm not sure where the Ultimarc buttons are from but I would suspect they are IL also.  IL has been cooperative with working on several projects with many vendors. 

There are few features of note that will make some of these products stand out.  We designed the Pele rings (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/button-leds/580-pele-30mm-led-rings.html), that light the Hoku buttons  (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-translucent-buttons/579-hoku-il-rgb-pushbutton-psl-l.html) to be more versatile than any LED lighting available.  These rings will work with:
1) IL translucents
2) Hoku buttons
3) Sanwa Translucent buttons
4) Seimitsu Translucent buttons
5) The wide variety of Chinese LED buttons available from different vendors (the flat top led buttons everyone seems to have now)
6) Electric Ice 1(tm)
7) Electric Ice 2(tm)
The list goes on.  Basically these rings will work with any 1 1/8 or 30mm button that is translucent or transparent.  There are two high powered smd leds with can deliver more light than a standard 5mm led.  We also made a definitive decision to stop bottom lighting buttons and offer a side lit option.  This allows for lighting of transparent buttons without blinding the player and gives a great even distribution.

It is also common knowledge that we do not currently make a light controller, while we have several bench top trials, we haven't made this leap.  So the Pele rings offer two rows of .100 pin headers.  Not only does this allow for super clean wiring and easy connections, the LEDs can be run off of any LED controller capable of delivering either a 5 volt signal or current controlled lighting.  We did this because there are good options offered in each.

(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/1212-large/pele-30mm-led-rings.jpg) (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/button-leds/580-pele-30mm-led-rings.html)
(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/1221-large/hoku-il-rgb-pushbutton-psl-l.jpg) (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/il-translucent-buttons/579-hoku-il-rgb-pushbutton-psl-l.html)

And because these were designed with the fighting community in mind also, we introduced the only 24mm RGB lighting option available on the market.
(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/1216-large/pele-24mm-led-rings.jpg) (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/button-leds/582-pele-24mm-led-rings.html)

24mm buttons (http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/en/86-ps-14-dnk) are commonly used for control functions on fight sticks, and we didn't want them to feel left out of the RGB light game!
(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/254-642-home/white-seimitsu-ps-14-dnk-24mm-pushbutton.jpg)

In the end our goal was a universal LED lighting system, that worked with any button and any controller.... our original target were machine builders who can have requests for different button types.  We wanted them to have one option for LED lighting regardless of who's buttons they used.
Mahalo!
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: jace055 on August 01, 2012, 06:36:37 pm
All of my buttons have arrived!!

Left to right...
We have 2 buttons from Ultimarc, 3 buttons from Paradise Arcade Shop and one from Groovy Game Gear


(http://i1049.photobucket.com/albums/s397/Jace055/73b89fe9.jpg)

I will post a review in about a week.  :badmood:  I still need to get a controller from groovy game gear but I will be out of town for a while and I didn't want it sitting on my doorstep for a couple of days.  I just unwrapped the last 2 and I haven't spent any time with any of them yet.  I'm almost done with my control panel and I didn't want any further distractions.

Just at first impressions by putting them together for the pictures, there are unique features to each of them I like but I'm going to wait until I can light them up before I do the review.
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: Nephasth on August 01, 2012, 09:34:29 pm
I like the fact that you're testing out a couple of different lighting solutions Paradise has for these buttons as well. :applaud:
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: jace055 on August 01, 2012, 11:02:26 pm
Since I have about a week, does anyone else know of any other RGB buttons I have missed?  Other verdors perhaps? I would like this to be as comprehensive as possible. 
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: armi0024 on August 02, 2012, 01:32:35 am
Jace,
Thanks for including us in the trials.  Thrilled to see you have the Hoku buttons with two options and the Seimitsu.  We are really proud of the wide variety of RGB lighting we offer and if I could suggest a few more options.... :)
IL clear with the IL-lumination pad(you have the LED)
IL clear with the Pele Ring(you have the LED)
Seimitsu with the Pele Ring(You have the led)
Seimitsu with X-busters insert(the only clear option for seimitsu's available), We suggest the Pele ring for this since the side lighting works well with clear buttons, but you can test both the Uila and the Pele ring here
Sanwa has a similar button to the Seimitsu, that can be used with the Uila or Pele ring, and we also are the only company with clear plungers available for these. 
The list goes on... We also have Jyueeang buttons with the original Uila's :)  These are the lowest cost RGB option around, but require soldering and button modification.
In total we have over a dozen different set ups for RGB in White or clear buttons.

I would also suggest you look at the shrink tubing like Nep did for the buttons to isolate the lighting

Finally I just thought I'd share a cool picture of our clear plungers lit with Arc Eye 3's (another RGB lighting option)
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k89/rosserrooster/g.jpg)

RGB Sanwa Buttons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xijc2Ie7II#ws)

Is it just me, or do those remind anyone else of Jolly Ranchers :)
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: Nephasth on August 14, 2012, 09:44:18 am
Looks like Jace started a new thread on the subject... http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121965.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121965.0.html)
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: edekoning on August 15, 2012, 02:24:26 am
Quote from: armi0024 on August 02, 2012, 01:32:35 am
I would also suggest you look at the shrink tubing like Nep did for the buttons to isolate the lighting

Is that even possible with the pele led rings?
Title: Re: Electric Ice 2 vs. ClassicRGB vs. Hoku IL RGB Pushbuttons
Post by: PL1 on August 15, 2012, 02:39:43 am
Quote from: edekoning on August 15, 2012, 02:24:26 am
Quote from: armi0024 on August 02, 2012, 01:32:35 am
I would also suggest you look at the shrink tubing like Nep did for the buttons to isolate the lighting

Is that even possible with the pele led rings?

If it goes outside the LEDs, why not?  Just don't shrink it so much that you break them.

(http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/1212-large/pele-30mm-led-rings.jpg)


Scott