The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Software Support => GroovyMAME => Topic started by: Paradroid on November 21, 2011, 12:49:31 am
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G'day,
After recently (the last few months) getting heavily into running MAME on SCART TVs, I've decided to check out GroovyMAME and see what all the fuss is about. From what I understand, it has the potential to run games at their native resolutions AND correct refresh rates.
My main setup features an ATI X300 card and Loewe CT1170 SCART television. I'm getting fantastic results using Soft-15kHz with this combination: all the lo-res modes work a treat. I also have a Blaupunkt and Grundig TV that work very well too.
Despite the satisfaction I'm currently getting from running Soft-15kHz, I'm interested see if GroovyMAME can run games like R-Type and Snow Bros at the correct refresh rates in order to smooth out the jumpy scrolling that these games exhibit when running at standard refresh rates.
So, my questions are as follows:
1. Will GroovyMAME run correctly with the kind of setup I have?
2. Is there a guide or FAQ I should read through before asking any further questions?
Thanks so much! :)
Dale
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Hi Paradroid,
Despite the satisfaction I'm currently getting from running Soft-15kHz, I'm interested see if GroovyMAME can run games like R-Type and Snow Bros at the correct refresh rates in order to smooth out the jumpy scrolling that these games exhibit when running at standard refresh rates.
Yes, GroovyMAME will create correct refresh rates for those games, if properly setup you'll enjoy smooth scrolling for all games within your TV ranges. It's more of a matter of your TV chasis actually accepting custom refresh rates outside of the NTSC/PAL standards, which is likely the case for that somewhat old Loewe model (newer digital chasis might be more picky about this).
1. Will GroovyMAME run correctly with the kind of setup I have?
Yes, provided you use Windows XP (32 or 64 are ok). The X300 is great for GroovyMAME (I've tested this one myself).
2. Is there a guide or FAQ I should read through before asking any further questions?
There's work in progress but no single FAQ document yet. Just ask your doubts here and we'll be answering.
The best way to get yourself introduced is to install CRT_Emudriver and set VMMaker up for a CGA monitor, same for GroovyMAME (use VMMaker.ini and mame.ini to introduce your settings). Test your games by launching GroovyMAME from command line with the romname as a param.
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Sounds great! I'll give it a rip after work tonight and let you know my results. Thanks!
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Wow!
So, I gave GroovyMAME a spin tonight and saw some pretty cool things!
A few great examples:
* The vertical scrolling between levels in Snow Bros is flawless (quite jerky with standard MAME).
* Horizontal scrolling in Forgotten Worlds doesn't drop any frames (a subtle problem with regular MAME but it's still jumpy).
* When you start a game of Strider, the caped figured scrolls all the way to the top with any glitching (this always annoyed me in the past!)
Pretty cool stuff!
However, there are some things that aren't working as well as I'd hoped:
* With R-Type II and Mortal Kombat, the picture looks as if it's been stretched. With regular MAME, the "ROM OK" text in R-Type II is crisp and defined. With GroovyMAME, it looked as if the image has been scaled. I tried to capture this with my camera but the photos weren't really good enough to show exactly what I'm seeing. I could try again if it helps...
* The horizontal scrolling in Robocop still seems a little uneven. Is this normal? It's been too long since I played an original machine to tell...
Anyway, very cool MAME build! Thanks so much!
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Sounds good!
* With R-Type II and Mortal Kombat, the picture looks as if it's been stretched. With regular MAME, the "ROM OK" text in R-Type II is crisp and defined. With GroovyMAME, it looked as if the image has been scaled. I tried to capture this with my camera but the photos weren't really good enough to show exactly what I'm seeing. I could try again if it helps...
Rather than taking photos, please get a log from any game that doesn't work fine. These issues are fixable 99% of the times. rtype and mk should look perfect. To get logs:
groovymame.exe mk -v -md 4 >mk.txt
...then attach the file here. We use the logs to see your current system setup and which resolutions are picked.
* The horizontal scrolling in Robocop still seems a little uneven. Is this normal? It's been too long since I played an original machine to tell...
Yep, robocop's original scroll was never smooth I'm afraid.
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These issues are fixable 99% of the times.
Great! I'll create the logs tonight and post them here.
Yep, robocop's original scroll was never smooth I'm afraid.
Haha! Good to know. Everything else about the game looks very smooth (intro animations, etc.) so it did make me wonder.
Thanks again for your help so far! :)
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Okay. Attached are logs from a few mainstream games that aren't looking right for me with GroovyMAME. They look like they're being scaled rather than a 1:1 pixel match up.
To recap, I'm using an ATI X300 with the Catalyst 6.5 CRT_EmuDriver on Windows XP Pro (32 bit) running into a Loewe CT1170 television.
Thanks!
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It seems like you installed Soft-15Khz over CRT_Emudriver. That's not the way to go.
You need to run VMMaker, inside the driver's folder. That app will create the resolutions you need in order to run GroovyMAME. Before running it, edit VMMaker.ini and follow the instructions inside. Basically you need to point to your MAME executable. Make sure the GenerateInis option is disabled as we don't need inis with GroovyMAME. Also, leave the option MonitorType = "CUSTOM" for now. Then run VMMaker and restart.
After restarting, run Arcade_OSD in the driver's folder and check if the new resolutions are installed. If everything is fine you should have around 160 custom video modes available (CRT_Emudriver 6.5)
Now run GroovyMAME again.
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Okay! Calamity, thanks to your patience and advice, I'm a step closer. However, it seems I haven't quite arrived at resolution & refresh rate nirvana yet. :(
I now have a big pile of modes listed in Arcade_OSD (and quickres). The Neo Geo games are running great now but the others still have issues. R-Type and Mortal Kombat are now are switching to interlaced modes and there's also something weird with CPS1 and 2 games: the resolution and refresh look perfect but the screen goes much brighter (out of range or something?) However, these games look fantastic in with regular MAME build (I assume it's switching to the resolution that your driver adds). I've attached a few logs to see if they provide you with any further clues on how to help me sort through this.
Even though not everything is perfect yet, I'm blown away by all the awesome looking modes your driver adds. Really cool! :)
Lastly, I'd like to make a contribution and give thanks for your efforts. Should I just go ahead and make a donation at http://mame.groovy.org/ (http://mame.groovy.org/) or would you prefer some other method?
Thanks again! ;D
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I see...
Your logs show that your system is not reporting 256 lines modes, even if installed, that's why GroovyMAME is picking something else. Please go to screen_properties/advanced/monitor and uncheck the box "Hide modes this monitor can't display" in case it's checked, that should avoid the OS mode prunning. It's quite weird however that those 256 lines resolutions did appear before when using Soft-15kHz and I'm assuming you didn't do something like switching monitors or stuff in the middle. Another possibility is that the patched version of the driver is not actually active and Windows has silently defaulted to it's original version, I've seen that before, however let's hope it's not that and focus on the first possibility.
Arcade_OSD should show you more than 100 custom resolutions (the number between () ). Only 76 are shown by GroovyMAME which means something is wrong. A driver reinstall might help if something has been screwed up in the registry.
As for the brighter modes, I guess your Loewe is not so confortable with frequencies around 15,200 KHz, so let's change the ranges slightly by setting this option in mame.ini (replace the existing one - no need to touch VMMaker now):
monitor_specs0 15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
I am the one to thank you for your patience.
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Okay. Thanks for the continued support.
I think that it's time that I refreshed this system. It's an old Core2 Duo that has been used as a test rig and HTPC. I reckon that it's high time for me to finally dedicate a PC to MAME and a fresh Windows install is probably in order. It might save time and confusion if I do this before working through any more issues.
With this in mind, are there any considerations to make before installing Windows XP from scratch? I'll go with the x64 version this time around and only install the necessary drivers and MAME. Nothing else. Later, I'll add a front end when everything is working smoothly.
Any advice before I proceed?
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So you will keep the same X300 in the new system, won't you? No special advice, only make sure the drivers get properly installed. Sometimes it takes some pain to get newly installed XP systems accept loading these drivers, they get installed normally but on startup the default drivers are loaded instead.
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Yep, the X300 will stay. No hardware changes, just a fresh Windows installation.
Out of interest, do you know if your drivers work properly if integrated (pre Windows installation) using a tool like nLite?
Just getting all the bits and pieces together now to work on this today... it's midday on Saturday and pouring rain. Perfect conditions for this kind of activity. ;)
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BTW, I made a small donation to GroovyMAME this morning. As I've said, I love what you guys are trying to achieve with this project. :)
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Yep, the X300 will stay. No hardware changes, just a fresh Windows installation.
Out of interest, do you know if your drivers work properly if integrated (pre Windows installation) using a tool like nLite?
Just getting all the bits and pieces together now to work on this today... it's midday on Saturday and pouring rain. Perfect conditions for this kind of activity. ;)
I'm probably late. Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure. BTW I wasn't aware there could be this issue with installation until he reported it, custom Windows ISOs seem to be more prone to have this problem, I guess because they ship newer versions of the default ATI driver already.
Seems like I'm on the other side of the globe, cool...
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Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure.
Ah, good to know! I'll test it myself soon enough...
I didn't actually perform the system refresh today. I started cleaning up files and preparing drivers in preparation before I decided to try re-installing your drivers one last time. The changes I made to the system (uninstalled lots of things and cleaned out old drivers) must have had an effect because I now have the the full list of modes and all the games I've previously mentioned now work very well indeed!
I'm super-impressed Calamity! Wow! ;D R-Type and Mortal Kombat now look very smooth and every other game I tried was flawless in regards to smooth scrolling and no tearing. Amazing! Oh, I also added the monitor specs you provided me with to my MAME .ini and that fixed the brightness problem for CPS1 & 2. Very cool!
The only problem left is that there is a lot of geometry variation between the modes. With my current setup, CPS and Neo Geo games look centered and well proportioned but the Irem games (R-Type, Ninja Spirit, etc.) aren't square. They are somewhat squashed in the lower part of the screen (horizontally). Is this kind of variance typical? I haven't tried to correct any of the issues using the Service Menu yet. I might be able to balance things out a bit that way.
My MAME setup has come a LONG way this week thanks to you! I still can't get over how good the games look now. :) Thanks again.
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The only problem left is that there is a lot of geometry variation between the modes. With my current setup, CPS and Neo Geo games look centered and well proportioned but the Irem games (R-Type, Ninja Spirit, etc.) aren't square. They are somewhat squashed in the lower part of the screen (horizontally). Is this kind of variance typical? I haven't tried to correct any of the issues using the Service Menu yet. I might be able to balance things out a bit that way.
TV sets are often more fussy than arcade monitors with regards to geometry settings over the 50-60 Hz range. My theory is that because they're designed to manage both PAL and NTSC signals, they have some internal geometry presets to compensate for the timing differences among those two standards, which are either applied depending on the input signal. As Irem games run at 55 Hz, which is just in the middle, the TV might take the wrong decision.
Before messing with the service menu, you might try finding the right specs for those frequency with the help of Arcade_OSD. In case you find the right porch and sync values that produce a good picture, then it's a matter of writing those values down to create a new monitor_specs line that covers to critical frequency range. Thus you would divide your TV's frequency range in two or more sub-ranges each one with the right geometry settings, as we do for multisync monitors.
I don't know if that particular issue can be fixed but I'm highly interested to know. I knew a TV user (cheap digital chasis) with a similar issue but with frequencies around 57 Hz, which we couldn't fix, but at the time the monitor_specs thing was not implemented yet.
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Very interesting indeed…
So, in theory, we could come up with a proper "preset" for the Loewe CT1170 through trial and error? I have a few Loewe TVs with the E3000 chassis. I assume the values we arrive upon would be the same for each TV using this chassis? I'd certainly be willing to do all the testing if you can guide me through the process. I actually have two CT1170s sitting here so I could even double check the results by switching between two identical models. Then there's the Profil, Contur, Profil Plus... all with the E3000. ;)
I'll have to check but I'm pretty sure the E3000 service manual says that there are two different set of values saved: 50Hz and 60Hz. I downloaded a scan of the service manual ages ago but the last CT1170 I picked came with hard copies of the user manual AND service manual (with schematics! Yay! :) ) so that's pretty cool. I can check all that out in the coming week. There must be a way to confirm that there are two sets of geometry values by switching between a 50Hz and 60Hz and observing the values displayed in the service menu.
As it stands, the Irem M72 are proving more problematic than I first reported: sometimes they won't even sync (the screen just rolls). Other times the sync fine but with a bulging or V-shaped image.
It would be great if we could find a solution for the M72 games but, even if it's not possible, it would still be fun to fine tune settings for the E3000 chassis since I'm in a position to test it quite thoroughly by referencing all these related Loewe models I have.
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Another update…
My theory is that because they're designed to manage both PAL and NTSC signals, they have some internal geometry presets to compensate for the timing differences among those two standards, which are either applied depending on the input signal.
A quick test reveals that you are correct. I tried selecting a few sample modes in Arcade_OSD that were lower than 55p before entering the Service Menu. When I scrolled through the geometry values, they were different to those that I had previously setup for my 60Hz desktop. Bingo!
The only problem is that when I bring up the Service Menu while R-Type is running, I get the 60Hz value set. :( That means I can't have a crack at fixing up the geometry without compromising the other games that are important to me.
I guess there must be a trigger that decides whether the TV uses the 60Hz or 50Hz settings. I need to learn a bit more about how all the values and frequencies of each mode interrelate before I can hunt down the crossover point.
One more discovery: I mentioned that R-Type doesn't always sync. Well, I found the reason why: in the user accessible menu, there is a "Video" sub-menu and an "Installation" menu option within that. There are six choices: "Video/Camera", "Photo CD", "Laser Disk", "Receiver", "Decoder" and "RGB". Naturally, when fiddling around with the settings this weekend I chose "RGB". However, R-Type won't sync with this setting! Also, interlaced modes look far more jittery with this setting. The "Video/Camera" setting allows a greater range of modes to sync when browsing Arcade_OSD and the interlaced 640 × 480 desktop looks far better.
The majority of games I care about most are looking awesome now. It'd be great if we could nut out the M72 games as R-Type was definitely a game that completely blew me away when I first played it as a kid.
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Thought id chime in here and ask a question, would it be better to have an install of Linix over windows if a PC is going to be used just for GroovyMAME as i was under the impression that the Linix version has the LIveCD and alot more supported fuctions 'out of the box' for instance Wiimote support for Lightgun games??
Im thinking of going down the same route as yourself Paradroid, i might get a cheap Atom mobo with intergreated GFX card etc and connect it up to a PAL CRT TV i got off ebay a while back via Scart cable
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Linux? Perhaps so. I'm after the best result I can get with a SCART TV and PC so if there are advantages then I'll consider going that way. There would be a bit of a learning curve for me as I've got about 10 minutes of experience with Linux, at the most. ;)
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thats 10 minutes more than me :cry:
EDIT: on a side note, Clamity is what ATI based card does GroovyMAME supoort up to??
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The only problem is that when I bring up the Service Menu while R-Type is running, I get the 60Hz value set. :( That means I can't have a crack at fixing up the geometry without compromising the other games that are important to me.
I guess there must be a trigger that decides whether the TV uses the 60Hz or 50Hz settings. I need to learn a bit more about how all the values and frequencies of each mode interrelate before I can hunt down the crossover point.
R-Type vfreq is slightly higher than 50 Hz (55.017606Hz) so assuming that vfreq is the trigger factor that may be the reason why it ends up being treated as a NTSC signal. As your TV expects 240 active lines for a NTSC signal it will not know what to do with 256 lines (rtype yres).
Does Mortal Kombat (54.815170Hz) look fine? Is it treated as a PAL signal? If that is the case then you may try forcing R-Type as PAL too by using two lines:
monitor_specs0 15625-16200, 49.50-54.90, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-16200, 55.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
That will create a gap in the middle, but Irem games would be calculated using the first line. They will run at 54.90 Hz (0.2 Hz compromise).
But the trigger factor might be also hfreq based (total lines related, PAL is 15625 Hz, NTSC is 15734 Hz), or vfreq-hfreq combined. So you need some patience and experimenting.
If you manage to get a 55.01 Hz signal properly displayed by chaging some porch values with Arcade_OSD (ie reducing vertical back porch by some lines) then you might come up with a three lines setup filling in the gap:
monitor_specs0 15625-16200, 49.50-54.90, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-16200, 54.90-56.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 0.896, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs2 15625-16200, 56.00-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
You may use Arcade_OSD to change each frequencies and value separately, you just need some practice and patience, but please be careful: nothing should happen, but the risk is real. So if you feel your CRT is stressed by a given mode just press "2" so you can tweak the settings while not in full screen mode, minimazing the pain. Then press "1" to bring the full screen mode back.
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Thanks Calamity. Looks like I've got lots of experimenting to do. :) I'll definitely try those settings you gave me tonight and report back.
Do you have a link to some info regarding the terminology and function of all those parameters in Arcade_OSD? I recognise most of the parameter names from Powerstrip but at this stage my understanding is pretty vague. I guess I can just experiment but I'd like to try and get my head around some of the theory behind it all if possible.
I'm happy to Google but if you have any recommended links…
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I gave those new monitor values a go. No miracles this time around. :(
After playing with Arcade_OSD, it seems that as the refresh rate moves below 60Hz, the geometry always becomes distorted. Specifically, the image becomes V-shaped: the bottom half of the screen doesn't stretch to the edges and the top half is too wide. This happens with all the games that are somewhere below 58Hz.
Out of curiosity, I plugged in the Grundig I have here and the image stayed true for R-Type. Grrr! I'm not married to the Loewes in any way but they're the best I've been able to get my hands on. The Grundig looks pretty good but it's unreliable. Needs some repairs. Also, the CT1170 beats it when it comes to convergence and color.
I'm certainly interested to learn more about how all this fits together but perhaps I need to lower my expectations a little. I mean, the CPS and Neo Geo games look amazing with GroovyMAME running them on the better of my two CT1170s. The image is miles ahead of any real arcade machine I've seen in the last 12 months.
I wish I had space for a proper cab and arcade monitor but I just don't have the space to work with all that in my apartment. Perhaps a universal chassis paired to one of the tubes in my Loewes might be the way forward in the future.
For the moment, more experimentation is still in order...
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I've a Loewe Articos and love it, one of the best CRTs I've seen, but it's 16:9 so I don't use it for gaming. The problem with TV's digital chasis is that they're not so flexible as analog ones, it seems. They're like a black box actually. This particular issue is new to me.
Using Arcade_OSD you can try entering the vertical geometry settings (in case you didn't), enable the "vfreq lock" so you don't get out of range, and try increasing/decreasing vertical front/back porches to see if you get any difference. By doing so you'll be modifying horizontal frequency too (different total number of lines per second), so the idea is to see if moving to a different horizontal frequency range helps or not. Perhaps trying to fool the TV to believe our signal is PAL. Horizontal geometry values might also help, but not sure.
I can't recommend you any specific links, you may already know this one (although AdvanceMAME oriented):
http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm (http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm)
I'm still working on documenting all this.
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I've a Loewe Articos and love it, one of the best CRTs I've seen, but it's 16:9 so I don't use it for gaming.
Cool! I have a widescreen Cantus that we use for TV and movies. Extremely stylish and superb image. Works well as a HTPC screen.
This particular issue is new to me.
I have a tripod for my camera now and can take much clearer pictures. I'm going to grab some images of the kind of distortion I'm experiencing so you can see exactly what I'm talking about.
Using Arcade_OSD you can try entering the vertical geometry settings (in case you didn't), enable the "vfreq lock" so you don't get out of range, and try increasing/decreasing vertical front/back porches to see if you get any difference.
Okay, will do. It'll probably take me a few sittings to get familiar with, firstly, Arcade_OSD's settings and, secondly, the influence these settings have on the issue I'm experiencing.
http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm (http://easymamecab.mameworld.info/html/monitor1.htm)
Thanks! Hadn't seen that!
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Quick update...
Out of interest, I hooked up a little Blaupunkt IS 63-33 VT that I have. Like the Grundig, it doesn't have the same geometry issues when switching to the lower refresh rates! Damn. The picture fills the screen just as well for the CPS1 games as it does for the M72 games. Only problem is that this TV has an intermittent sound problem, shaky image in the bottom-left hand corner and, well, it's just plain old smaller than the Loewes. ;)
Back to the Loewe: out of interest, I tried to correct the geometry for R-Type using the Service Menu (without saving values) and got pretty close. I think I could could get it right if I spent the time to do it properly. Worst case scenario I could manually adjust when I really want to play the 55Hz games. The thing I noticed, though, was the R-Type is actually missing some lines. Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier! The whole section of the screen that shows the beam charging is missing (even when lowering the vertical amp). Weird. I'll have to have a good play with Arcade_OSD and see if this can be fixed.
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Yes, I happen to know of one guy from the Spanish forum who made his custom nLite installation integrating these drivers and it worked fine for him, he had been struggling to get the drivers installed by the normal procedure. BTW I wasn't aware there could be this issue with installation until he reported it, custom Windows ISOs seem to be more prone to have this problem, I guess because they ship newer versions of the default ATI driver already.
Calamity do you have a url for this guy who made a custom nLite install for Groovymame?
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Okay, to further torture myself tonight I plugged in my Loewe Calida that has a Q4140 chassis. I thought this TV was best thing ever until I realised that the subtle artifacts in the image were due to the digital processing and not the fact that the first dodgy SCART cable I ever made was unshielded. Unfortunately the "subtle" sometimes turns to "nasty" and so I moved towards the E3000 chassis because it doesn't have those problems.
That said, the Q4140 copes with the refresh rate variations just fine! None of the same geometry distortion of the E3000. Problem is that if I load up something like Rainbow Islands that has lots of simplistic colors, I'm reminded of why I gave up on the Q4140: the image processing makes a horrible mess of this game.
I guess I should write up a guide to Loewe TVs for use with MAME and, in particular, Groovy MAME. Might save someone some pain in the future. ;)
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Calamity kindly pointed out that the E3000 chassis has a bunch of Option Bytes that can be set in the Service Menu. Some of these looked very promising but after experimenting with many of them I have to report that none solved my problem. In fact, I couldn't even tell what (if anything) most of them did. :( Oh well. I was excited there for a moment there. :) Unfortunately, Google isn't telling me much about these options are for either so I guess they'll remain somewhat of a mystery.
As it stands, the Loewe E3000 TVs are a compromise: awesome image quality but, for me currently, it's not possible to flick between a wide range of refresh rates and expect perfect geometry.
By adjusting the EW-Amp settings in the Service Menu I was able to get R-Type looking square. A manual adjustment of this type is something I can live with until I can get my hands on a Grundig or Blaupunkt in better condition than the ones I have.
Also, I still have a issue with R-Type unrelated to my geometry woes: there are a number of lines missing at the bottom of the image. No matter what I do in Arcade_OSD I can't get the top and bottom borders to display for 384 × 256. Even with the TV setup to underscan, the bottom lines just aren't there. This translates to the "Beam" and score info being completely absent when I play R-Type. Other modes (like 384 × 224) show the thicker, white borders fine but not the 384 × 256 mode.
Any clues as to what I could try here? This problem isn't specific to the Loewe since the Blaupunkt and Grundig had the same issue.
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I'm sorry it didn't work, looked so interesting...
I'm curious however as any TV should be capable of showing 288 active lines if it's supposed to support PAL, unless I'm missing something. Could you do a quick test using this monitor_specs line (only this one):
monitor_specs0 15625-15625, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
This should force GroovyMAME to create the modeline "384x256x50.08" 7.874979 384 400 440 504 256 275 277 312 -HSync -VSync which should be treated as PAL
Are the bottom lines still missing if we do this?
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I'm sorry it didn't work, looked so interesting...
As we Aussies say, "no worries, mate." ;) It was definitely worth a shot and since I have a backup CT1170 I had no qualms about giving it a go. I will revisit those switches in the future out of curiosity but none seemed to be a magical cure for my current issue.
I'm curious however as any TV should be capable of showing 288 active lines if it's supposed to support PAL, unless I'm missing something.
Is it possible that this is a video card issue? I say that because, as I mentioned previously, I didn't see the last few lines on the other TVs I tried either. Mind you, I didn't test by intentionally reducing the vertical amp of the TV like I did with the Loewe.
I have a second ATI X300 sitting here. I bought it cheap off eBay and haven't tested it yet. I have no idea if you've seen variations between cards of with the same chipset.
Could you do a quick test using this monitor_specs line (only this one)
Gladly! I love to test. The more tests, the better. :) If I ever eliminate all these little issues I may have to ask myself which I prefer: playing the actual games or tweaking the system. I suspect the "thrill of the chase" is driving me more than the thought of being able to give R-Type a blast ever so often. ;)
I'll report back tonight after I punch in that monitor spec.
Thanks again! :)
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As we Aussies say, "no worries, mate." ;)
http://youtu.be/8kCdMfP-gQg?t=35s (http://youtu.be/8kCdMfP-gQg?t=35s)
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Are the bottom lines still missing if we do this?
No. As you predicted, that forced the TV into PAL mode. Nice trick! ;) All the lines were showing. Had a nice, slow game of R-Type while I was at it. :)
A couple more pieces of information:
1. I think I've found the trigger for the PAL/NTSC geometry in the E3000 chassis: approx. 52.4 Hz. :) Any higher and it jumps up to the NTSC value set. Also, I have confirmed the geometry distortion issue on 3 separate E3000 model TVs now (I tried my Contur 1470 tonight... same deal).
2. I pulled out a Loewe Contur Plus that I have in my spare room. I bought this cheap a while ago and was impressed by the slick design and flat screen but disappointed by the woeful geometry and noise in the image. Great cosmetic condition but the guts have gone bad. :( This TV has an E3001 chassis and, based on a very quick test, guess what? The image stays square for both CPS1 and M72! ;D I didn't have time tonight to go deep but it looks positive for this chassis. I'm still missing lines in R-Type but I guess that's a separate issue. This particular TV is seriously on the blink though: something is slowly dying inside as the image jumps around and changes color intermittently. However, there's a new glimmer of hope here! This chassis isn't as common as the E3000 (well, at least in terms of models that come up on my local eBay) but if we can sort out the missing lines I could be onto a winner.
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Ah good news then, it's a relief to know there's some logic to those digital chasis after all. So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense. You can still use the two monitor_specs lines setup by properly defining the ranges, although the gap in the middle will be bigger than I thought. So R-Type would run at 91% or so. It's a shame that some great tubes are hijacked by intolerant chasis. Hopefully that E3001 chasis can be repaired.
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So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense.
Yeah, well, that figure was based on a quick test I did slowly raising the refresh rate using that last monitor spec you gave me. I interested to run some more tests to see if I can give a more definitive answer to the NSTC/PAL question.
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So that's valuable information, the trigger seems to be vfreq based, I didn't expect that but makes sense.
Yeah, well, that figure was based on a quick test I did slowly raising the refresh rate using that last monitor spec you gave me. I interested to run some more tests to see if I can give a more definitive answer to the NSTC/PAL question.
Another test you can do:
monitor_specs0 15734-15734, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
This uses NTSC hfreq + PAL vfreq, see which standard is invoked (launch rtype).
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Okay, thanks! :) I'm away this weekend but I'll give that new line a crack when I get home. It'll be interesting to see how it reacts!
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Going quickly through this topic, all I have to say is: for serious video gaming you need genuine arcade monitor not a SCART TV, period. I have done test with Advance MAME and ADVV and a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz! TVs are not made for playing arcade video games they are made for displaying PAL and NTSC TV broadcast signals, plus there are options like DVD player inputs but still these are "locked" to 50 / 60 Hz. Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now? Go grab the Wells Gardner tri-sync monitor or similar if you are really serious about 100% CRT videogaming display.
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a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz!
Most likely you're right. However, convenience and price, are priorities (in that order) for me at the moment. I simply don't have the workspace (e.g. a shed or spare room) right now to get a real cab rigged up. Can you imagine what my girlfriend would say about an open WG monitor sitting in my living room? ;) That black plastic at the back of the screen is important to me for the time being...
Point taken though. ;D
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Another test you can do:
monitor_specs0 15734-15734, 50.00-50.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
This uses NTSC hfreq + PAL vfreq, see which standard is invoked (launch rtype)
I tried this spec and, again, the TV decides to go with the PAL geometry values. The image looks perfect in PAL mode (no skew and all lines present) but obviously it runs slow.
I gave my Grundig a good go on Friday night with R-Type and it doesn't distort the geometry or omit any lines. I found the Grundig on the side of the road and the chassis was pretty dirty inside and some of the parts are a little rusty (it must have been out in the rain). I cleaned it thoroughly using an air compressor and it works pretty well but sometimes turns itself off. Also, the convergence and image stability can't compete with the Loewes.
I guess it'll be a compromise for me until I take the plunge with a full blown cab or chance across a Grundig, Blaupunkt, etc. that happens to not have any of these issues. I'll soon be picking up a 32" Blaupunkt that I won on eBay for 0.99 cents last week. Fingers crossed for that one! Not looking forward to carrying it though... back breaker!
If you still have the patience, Calamity, I'd be great if you can help me fine tune the monitor spec lines that at least allow me to play these games on the CT1170 without image issues (even if they're the wrong speed).
Thanks again!
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Hi Paradroid,
Then it becomes clear that the Loewe is using Vfreq value rather than Hfreq to discriminate PAL/NTSC. I dare to suggest these lines as a possible compromise setup:
monitor_specs0 15625-15734, 50.00-52.40, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448
monitor_specs1 15625-15734, 58.00-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 248, 448
The idea is that anything above 248 lines (just to provide a limit) will go through the first monitor_specs0 line, assigning the maximum Vfreq (52.4 Hz) for that range if original Vfreq value exceeds that limit.
On the other hand, anything below or equal to 248 lines will go through the second monitor_specs1, always forcing Vfreq above 58.00 Hz.
You can still run R-Type at 100% if you renounce to smooth scrolling: enable the -triplebuffer option just for the games you require it, and decide what you prefer.
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You can still run R-Type at 100% if you renounce to smooth scrolling
Ooh! It's hard to go back once you see the difference, eh? ;)
Thanks for the latest monitor specs. I think I understand the logic enough now to be able to experiment and refine the definitions.
Now that I've got a taste for GroovyMAME the search for the ultimate video setup continues but at least now we've got it to the stage that the majority of games I enjoy look amazing on my system.
Thanks again! ;D
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Ooh! It's hard to go back once you see the difference, eh? ;)
Indeed ;)
Going quickly through this topic, all I have to say is: for serious video gaming you need genuine arcade monitor not a SCART TV, period. I have done test with Advance MAME and ADVV and a TV will never ever display correctly all the possible frequencies from 50 to 60 Hz! TVs are not made for playing arcade video games they are made for displaying PAL and NTSC TV broadcast signals, plus there are options like DVD player inputs but still these are "locked" to 50 / 60 Hz. Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now? Go grab the Wells Gardner tri-sync monitor or similar if you are really serious about 100% CRT videogaming display.
Yeah I get it my friend.
However, it's not true that no TV can display all frequencies from 50-60 Hz. I'm possitive that at least some Sony Trinitrons can, as we've tested them. My guess is that the best generation of scart TVs to look for is the one right before the chasis became digital. Unfortunately this is not the sort of feauture you'll expect to see advertised by the manufacturers.
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What sort of time period are we looking at for when digital chasis started to appear?
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Noone has designed a TV with 55 Hz for R-Type in mind.. Do you get it now?
While I'm sure TV manufacturers didn't have our hobby in mind when drawing up their designs, it seems that just because something was designed for one purpose doesn't necessarily mean that it won't suit another...
My persistence has paid off! I scored a Siemens FS 343 V6 on the weekend and guess what? I'm playing R-Type with a complete picture and very good geometry. All with beautiful GroovyMAME smooth scrolling! :)
It's not quite MAME/SCART nirvana as the geometry and overscan settings that I've tweaked for use with the M72 games doesn't suit CPS2 but I'm just thrilled to finally have a unit that's at least capable of displaying the Irem games correctly. ;D
Sorry for the poor photos (I still don't know the best way to capture TV images) but I couldn't resist including some visual evidence!
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As an aside, the Service Menu for the Siemens looks suspiciously (i.e. exactly) like the Service Menu for my Grundig. Anyone know what the connection is there?
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Congratulations man, those pics look superb!
You'll need to correct the vertical amplitude for sure when switching from 224 lines to 256, but that's the same with arcade monitors. However it should be possible to get a nearly universal horizontal amplitude adjustment (impossible to get it perfect specially with low resolutions as we work with blocks of 8 pixels width). If that's not possible then maybe this TV is still doing some stuff internally.
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Congratulations man, those pics look superb!
Thanks! I'm pretty happy with the result after all this experimentation.
You'll need to correct the vertical amplitude for sure when switching from 224 lines to 256, but that's the same with arcade monitors.
Really?! Good to know! That's not an issue specific to this set then. Nothing to worry about.
However it should be possible to get a nearly universal horizontal amplitude adjustment
Yep. The horizontal looks pretty damn good! When going between M72/M81 and CPS, everything stays as it should except that there's a black band at the bottom of the screen.
Thanks again for your help! I'm getting close now. ;)
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Yep. The horizontal looks pretty damn good! When going between M72/M81 and CPS, everything stays as it should except that there's a black band at the bottom of the screen
Not sure if I get it... there should be two huge black bands at the top and the bottom a CPS game if you adjust your TV so that a M72 game fits the screen...
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Yep, that's basically what I'm seeing. Although, it seems the band at the bottom is larger than the one at the top. I've included some better shots as a reference (and also to further show off my AUD $25 purchase). Siemens, people, Siemens! ;D
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Try increasing the vertical back porch by steps of 0.064 (one line), that should push the picture down.
(sorry I edited your post by accident, this happens to me to me all the time lately :embarassed:)
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That looks flipping fantastic Paradroid, so is that a CRT TV or a monitor??
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It's a Siemens FS 343 television. Most definitely a CRT!
A quick Google search reveals that there's a connection between Grundig, Siemens and Blaupunkt. Looks like they share a lot of the same chassis internals. These 3 brands are pretty hard to come by in my part of the world (Australia), especially in 4:3 format (the widescreen Grundigs are actually more plentiful) but I imagine they're much more common in certain parts of Europe. The Loewes are far more common here and I think that has to do with the strong marketing campaign they had through the '90s. Believe it or not, the Loewes produce an even better image but, obviously, they're far less compatible with a wide range of resolutions and refresh rates.
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Try increasing the vertical back porch by steps of 0.064 (one line), that should push the picture down.
Cool! I'll try that.
Worst case is that I'll have to change both the vertical amp and shift when switching between systems. However, that's pretty easy to do on this unit.
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It's a Siemens FS 343 television. Most definitely a CRT!
A quick Google search reveals that there's a connection between Grundig, Siemens and Blaupunkt. Looks like they share a lot of the same chassis internals. These 3 brands are pretty hard to come by in my part of the world (Australia), especially in 4:3 format (the widescreen Grundigs are actually more plentiful) but I imagine they're much more common in certain parts of Europe.
Those 3 TV manufacturers cant really be found in the UK for CRT TVs
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Those 3 TV manufacturers cant really be found in the UK for CRT TVs
Really? That surprises me... Do the CRT TVs in the UK have SCART ports as standard? In Australia, SCART equipped TVs are definitely in the minority. I'd guess maybe 20:1 or 30:1. Most TVs have RCA composite, some have S-Video and then some of the more modern ones have component for DVDs (but mostly only widescreen models).
I'd love to get my hands on a Sony with a SCART port. Honestly, I would see at least one Sony CRT on the side of the road everyday here. However, I've only seen two 4:3 Sonys with SCART ports. One I tried (it didn't work) and the other was beyond repair so I left it. eBay is tough too because nobody knows what a SCART port is and, as a result, they don't mention it in their listing.
Save the following search on ebay.co.uk and see what comes up?
(beko,blaupunkt,grundig,loewe,siemens,thomson) (television,tv,monitor) -(lcd,led,plasma)
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Yeah Scart was standard here in the UK, from about 1991 onwards 99.9% of TVs had Scart sockets on, even the latest LCD screens still have Scart sockets on them here in the UK. Main CRT manufacturers in the UK were, Sony, Panasonic, Philips, JVC, Toshiba, Bush, Samsung. I was actually looking at a 26" Sony Triniton CRT on eBay but it ended today without me noticing with no bids on (99p starting price)
It always supirses me how in the US and Austrilia that people just dump TV's by the road side...we never get that sort of thing here in the UK :(
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It always supirses me how in the US and Austrilia that people just dump TV's by the road side...we never get that sort of thing here in the UK :(
Yeah I've been thinking the same thing reading Paradroid's posts, it seems much like picking mushroom over there :)
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Yeah I've been thinking the same thing reading Paradroid's posts, it seems much like picking mushroom over there :)
MWAHAHA! ;D So funny that you said that: our German friends always lament the lack of wild mushrooms in Australia. ;D Another friend who owned a restaurant used to travel a couple hours to a pine forest and pick Pine mushrooms and sell them for AUD $150 per kilo to fancy restaurants.
In all seriousness, it's pretty crazy here in respects to hard rubbish. About a month ago I spent an hour cruising the streets of a wealthy suburb in my city. Honestly, I would have seen over 1 hundred TVs in that time alone. :( Nobody wants a CRT so they just get tossed to the curb. It kills me because they're out in the weather getting ruined instead of being advertised on eBay or given to charity.
On that particular run I went past 3 Grundig Elegance widescreens, 1 Loewe Aconda and 1 old school Phillips with a SCART port. I filled the car with a Loewe Contur (it ended up not working) and a Loewe VCR. In the last 6 months I've collected working Grundigs, Blaupunkts, Toshibas and full Loewe range (Xelos, Contur, Calida and Cantus). Some have had issues soI've recycled them, some I've given to thrift stores and friends and others I've kept. :)
I guess you could conclude that Aussies are pretty wasteful with their old electronics. And, if you saw the streets during these times, you'd think we're pretty messy too. ;) I'll take some photos next time I go on a rubbish run and you guys can see for yourselves…
P.S. The situation in Canada appears the same: http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2011/09/analog-tv-death-toll.html (http://ploguechipsounds.blogspot.com/2011/09/analog-tv-death-toll.html)
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Thats just crazy. Thing is these old CTR sets will probably be well sort after in say 5 years time, when people catch on to the fact that old retro consoles look like shite on new modern LCD screens!!
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At some point, humanity will regret having killed CRT technology, that's a fact.
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My guess is that the best generation of scart TVs to look for is the one right before the chasis became digital. Unfortunately this is not the sort of feauture you'll expect to see advertised by the manufacturers.
Guess what? The 2 Blaupunkts I picked up this week appear to be analogue! There is an OSD for the audio and channels but none of this stuff shows when you're running RGB through the AV input. Also, the service mode is extremely basic: just a few options for the OSD (position and language). All the other image controls (size, height, trapezium, etc.) are set through a series of internal trim pots lined up at the back! I'm really surprised because they're very modern looking TVs on the outside. On the inside, there are far more analog components than the Loewes and Grundigs I've looked inside.
Now, as for the image, it's incredible! Sharp, vibrant and completely free from the artifacts I've seen in some digital TVs. Also, the image doesn't seem to distort (in terms of image shape) when I adjust the vertical amplitude. This is a problem that all digital chassis I've tried have had.
Pretty cool! ;D
Too bad the sound is so tinny… but some external speakers will fix that.
So, for future reference, the model numbers I've tried are:
Blaupunkt IS 70-33 VTN
Blaupunkt IS 70-33 VT
Blaupunkt IS 63-33 VT
They all cope perfectly with the range of resolutions and vertical refresh rates I've tested so far.
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Looks like you've scored a perfect display solution then!? So even CRT TVs had digital chassis in later life? I'm try to weight up the props and cons of getting an older type CRT or newer, older will the picture be to too soft now, and newer will it hava a digital chassis are bork what we are trying to achieve here.
Over in the UK CRT sets had black cases for years and then around 1998 time all TVs started coming out with silver cases, not sure if this is the same in other countries or even why the decided to change....maybe the manufactures thought silver fits in better with modern (at the time) living rooms/lounges, obviously now a days LCD's have all black cases again.
So that's the way I determine how old a CRT set roughly is, I'm still trying to score a Sony Triniton near to me via eBay, I have seen one but its 29" big and think that will be to big and plus would weigh a ton
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Great work Paradroid.
The problem with scart TVs has been that most people just post on their success outputting a 15 KHz signal and think that's all the story about it. So the really important info here: if a TV set is capable of doing the whole range 50-61 Hz, is so scarce.
Lettuce, here is a pic of Recap's Sony Trinitron TV which we know to happily support the whole range, it seems to confirm your black-case theory:
http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?pid=4169#p4169 (http://postback.geedorah.com/foros/viewtopic.php?pid=4169#p4169)
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Looks like you've scored a perfect display solution then!?
Well, there's always things that you wish were better but it's pretty damn good. ;D
Lettuce, I tend to agree with you re: silver TVs. If it's silver, chances are it's going to have a digital chassis and built image processing. That's a bad start... Plus, they don't look as good. ;)
Calamity, I'm more than happy to document my findings so others can benefit in the future. After this experience I think we could come up with a check list or a series of tests that can be used to determine whether a SCART TV is going to display the full range modes. And you're right about people's first impressions! I thought I had the perfect monitor until I tried GroovyMAME and discovered the deficiencies in my Loewe TVs.
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I need to really start putting my 2 current CRT TVs through their paces, atm the sharp is kill the bush just a shame the sharp is mono and not stereo :(. Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??
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Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??
It's very easy indeed. Use the ReslList.txt file attached, disable ListFromXML in VMMaker.ini and run VMMaker to create the modelines, it should produce something like this:
Modeline "320x240_50 15.65KHz 50.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 268 271 313 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_51 15.65KHz 50.99Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 265 268 307 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_52 15.65KHz 52.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 262 265 301 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_53 15.65KHz 53.06Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 259 262 295 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_54 15.65KHz 53.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 256 259 290 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_55 15.61KHz 54.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 253 255 284 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_56 15.61KHz 55.96Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 251 253 279 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_57 15.61KHz 56.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 248 250 274 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_58 15.65KHz 57.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 246 249 270 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_59 15.65KHz 59.07Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 244 247 265 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_60 15.65KHz 59.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 242 245 261 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_61 15.83KHz 60.87Hz" 6.720 320 336 368 424 240 241 244 260 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "640x480_60 15.62KHz 59.95Hz" 12.980 640 664 728 832 480 482 487 521 interlace -hsync -vsync
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Oh, very cool Calamity! :) That will make testing quite straight forward. I'm away for Christmas but I'll definitely give that a spin when I'm home again. Thanks!
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So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?
Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are??
It's very easy indeed. Use the ReslList.txt file attached, disable ListFromXML in VMMaker.ini and run VMMaker to create the modelines, it should produce something like this:
Modeline "320x240_50 15.65KHz 50.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 268 271 313 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_51 15.65KHz 50.99Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 265 268 307 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_52 15.65KHz 52.01Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 262 265 301 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_53 15.65KHz 53.06Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 259 262 295 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_54 15.65KHz 53.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 256 259 290 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_55 15.61KHz 54.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 253 255 284 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_56 15.61KHz 55.96Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 251 253 279 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_57 15.61KHz 56.98Hz" 6.620 320 336 368 424 240 248 250 274 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_58 15.65KHz 57.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 246 249 270 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_59 15.65KHz 59.07Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 244 247 265 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_60 15.65KHz 59.98Hz" 6.630 320 336 368 424 240 242 245 261 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "320x240_61 15.83KHz 60.87Hz" 6.720 320 336 368 424 240 241 244 260 -hsync -vsync
Modeline "640x480_60 15.62KHz 59.95Hz" 12.980 640 664 728 832 480 482 487 521 interlace -hsync -vsync
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So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?
Once you've created them use Arcade_OSD to run through the list.
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So what's the quickest/easiest way to test all these modes out on our CRT's?
Once you've created them use Arcade_OSD to run through the list.
Great i knew you were going to say that.....i cant use Arcade_OSD it always crashes on me :(. Any chance of a fix for this?
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Great i knew you were going to say that.....i cant use Arcade_OSD it always crashes on me :(. Any chance of a fix for this?
Oh I forgot that... You can use Quickres or Winmodelines as an alternative. I'm working in a new version, hopefully won't crash...
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Calamity is there a quick dirty test we can do to see if our crts can do the whole range, or report what there limits are?
I'm back from holidays and ready to start narrowing down my SCART TV collection.
Before I get rid of anything, I to compile something of a "report card" for each unit. Calamity's list of refresh rates (at 320 x 240) will be a good start but, from my experience with the Loewes, testing the number of lines that a TV can show is also important. I wonder if between us we can come up with a comprehensive set of tests that take everything into account: refresh rates, vertical lines, frequency range, artifacts (from digital chassis), etc. I know some people are also interested to know about other things like power return.
I also run the Nokia Monitor Test suite on my TVs but this is more about performance rather than capabilities. I've seen the same models show variations (e.g. some have better convergence than others) but for Groovy MAME users, I guess it's most important to know whether a TV will be able to simply show the games at there proper resolution and refresh rate without issues.
Any thoughts or suggestions most welcome! :)
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Yes, we need to make some sort of test list of modelines that more or less covers all relevant values. I've been thinking about it, just need to figure out how to keep it simple but complete at the same time, I'll be posting something soon.
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Excellent! Looking forward to it. :)
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Here is a possible method for testing TVs. Please post any suggestions on how to improve it.
The idea is to use Vfreq and Active_lines as the relevant values to test. This is because, according to Paradroid's tests, it's Vfreq the trigger factor used by some TVs to switch PAL/NTSC settings. So Hfreq would be the product of Vfreq & Active_lines combined, but not a value to test directly. I'd use a monitor_specs line like this:
monitor_specs_0 = "15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.160, 1.056, 0, 0, 288, 448"
... this will predefine the Hfreq range BTW. You can use higher Hfreq values (i.e., to get higher refresh rates for higher resolutions) but it's unlikely that the TV will deal with them.
For ReslList.txt, use a list like this:
## Desktop ##
640 x 480 @ 30.000000 desktop
## Test ##
320 x 240 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 240 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 248 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 256 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 264 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 272 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 280 @ 61.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 50.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 51.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 52.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 53.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 54.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 55.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 56.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 57.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 58.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 59.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 60.000000 test
320 x 288 @ 61.000000 test
Then, testing the resolutions by rows, you could come up with a table like this.
Hantarex MTC 9110
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61
240 x x x x x x x x x x x x
248 x x x x x x x x x x x x
256 x x x x x x x x x x x -
264 x x x x x x x x x - - -
272 x x x x x x x x - - - -
280 x x x x x x - - - - - -
288 x x x x x - - - - - - -
I've used the H9110 settings for this table, to use it as a reference.
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Ah! Nice! I like the idea of showing the results as a table in the way you've suggested. Based on what I've observed so far, a comprehensive report card would also have to include some notes about the other particulars of the TV (e.g. the Loewes having separate geometry values for PAL/NTSC, the Siemens only having one set of values, etc.). No doubt there be some evolution and refinement in order to develop a fail proof test procedure. I'm happy to dive in and see what comes of it.
With the number of Active_lines, is 8 the smallest increment between modes? I'm still vague on the theory of it all so please excuse my ignorance for a little longer. :-[ I'm pretty sure the Loewes won't even do 240 lines in NTSC mode. I'll have to double check but I seem to recall lines missing at the top and bottom of the screen. I always assumed I needed to adjust the height to get them showing but I think that was a wrong assumption. I know 224 lines is fine because the CPS and Neo Geo games work great. Is it worth starting the test with less lines than 240? Makes more work, I guess.
I'm off to the beach tomorrow (31°C here in .au) so I won't be able to get onto this immediately but I'm definitely keen to see what we can make of it. :)
Thanks for kick starting this!
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There's no need to increment the number of lines by multiples of 8, it's just for practical purposes and because most arcade resolutions are aligned to those 8 multiples, but nothing prevents us from using values such as 241 or 250.
The horizontal case is different because video cards internal registers traditionally work with 'characters' instead of pixels. These characters are blocks of 8 pixels wide.
We can add the 224 and 232 rows, I just started with the 240 height because it's the NTSC standard so I believed every TV should be capable of showing at least 240 progressive lines.
So for the Loewes, you would probably get a table like this (notice the gap):
50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61
224 x x x x - - - - x x x x
232 x x x x - - - - x x x x
240 x x x x - - - - x x x x
248 x x x x - - - - - - - -
256 x x x x - - - - - - - -
264 x x x x - - - - - - - -
272 x x x - - - - - - - - -
280 x x - - - - - - - - - -
288 x - - - - - - - - - - -
BTW, I don't know if this is physically possible at all but I'd love to see a picture of your 14 CRT TVs collection all together before you get rid of them, it might become handy when my wife complains about my hobby.
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BTW, I don't know if this is physically possible at all but I'd love to see a picture of your 14 CRT TVs collection all together before you get rid of them, it might become handy when my wife complains about my hobby.
HAHA! Yes, I've been thinking of doing that. In fact, I was thinking that with the right software and enough hardware I could make an awesome '80s video wall. ;)
BTW, I think it was 18 at last count... :laugh:
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i d like to test a radeon 9200 agp card on a scart tv with composite sync out. ( soldering a fitting cable right now ) . do i have to install powerstrip or netframework + catalyst control center to switch it from separate to composite sync ? or is there a hidden switch somewhere in windows . if so i cant find it . i m using win xp 32 . do i need a resitor in the pin 13 vga to scart pin 20 line to fix the sync ouput level ?
btw. with calamitys driver the additional resolutions in mame are a real benefit compared to the few a 9200 avga offers. nice work and a real alternative to avga and soft 15 k .
ps. if i post a pic of my tv junkyard ur wife will allow anyhing u want ..
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i like to test a radeon 9200 agp card on a scart tv with composite sync out. ( soldering a fitting cable right now ) . do i have to install powerstrip or netframework + catalyst control center to swith it from separate to composite sync ? or is there a hidden switch somewhere in windows . if so i cant find it . i m using win xp 32 . do i need a resitor in the pin 13 vga to scart pin 20 line to fix the sync ouput level ?
In case you haven't seen it, this link is gold:
http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/cables-en.html (http://www.geocities.ws/podernixie/htpc/cables-en.html)
If your monitor accepts only composite syncs, it is not recommended to connect H and V signals together. If you use an ATI card you can enable composite sync in ATI control panel or WinModelines. Then connect VGA pin 13 to composite sync input (do not connect pin 14). If you still experience problems, you may have to change output polarity from ATI control panel or replacing -hsync -vsync by +hsync +vsync in all modelines within WinModelines.
So you can use Winmodelines to enable composite sync for ATI cards, it's a very light app that doesn't even need to be installed.
Yeah make sure to send pics ;D
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one more question ( or maybe two ) :
- how do i get the avga radeon 9200 running with the patched cataylist drivers ? do i need to fresh install them and delete the vga drivers or shall i install them over the avga drivers ?
- cant find a setting in the modelines prg for switching to " composite sync " .
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- how do i get the avga radeon 9200 running with the patched cataylist drivers ? do i need to fresh install them and delete the vga drivers or shall i install them over the avga drivers ?
First uninstall any ATI drivers and run CatUninstaller to make sure the system is clean, then install the patched drivers.
- cant find a setting in the modelines prg for switching to " composite sync " .
The option appears when it recognizes the ATI registry (you need to run it in the target computer). It's "C-Sync" and has two check boxes "VGA 1" and "VGA 2". Chech the first one, press "Apply changes" and restart, that should do the trick.
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Been really busy with holidays and socialising. Still haven't found the time to get stuck into testing and comparing all my TVs. :(
However, I just made it to SCART TV number 20! And it's a really beauty! I was driving to a coffee shop this morning and spied a Blaupunkt on the side of the road. Also, there was a bag of cables and an LG DVD player. You can imagine my delight when, after carrying the damn thing up the stairs, I plugged it in and it worked! Not only that, the image is excellent. I could tell by the OSD that the picture was going to be very sharp and solid. No pics of it operating yet but check out what a score it was!
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Nice score!
I wish I had the space to collect CRT's I really love them and hate the fact they are vanishing :(
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I'd love to see a picture of your 14 CRT TVs collection all together before you get rid of them, it might become handy when my wife complains about my hobby.
Here you go! As promised, the full line-up! Today is the day. Some (!) TVs are moving out. Please don't think that I have a mental illness. I'm actually a pretty normal person. ;)
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LOVELY! ABSOLUTELY! :o :applaud:
Now we're definitely ready for madmax to come.
BTW congratulations for your new blog, really cool.
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Haha that's ridiculous!! And Im getting greif for having just 3 TVs sitting in the back room!. Can we have an itinerary of what's pictured?
So out of all those you still haven't found a good substitute for Mame?
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Hi Paradroid,
Before you give away your Loewes, there's a possibility I'd like to test for R-Type like games (256 lines). Maybe if they accept lower hfreq of 15.2 KHz we can get those modes fit the screen:
monitor_specs0 15200-16200....
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Before you give away your Loewes
Thanks! Will definitely test. I've gave 2 Loewes to a charity shop on Friday, sold my best CT1170 for $50 on Saturday (guy came to pickup another Loewe and I told him how good that CT1170 was so he left with 2 TVs :) ). However, I kept the Contur 1470 because it still can't be beat for the 224 line games. The E3000 chassis is that good (image quality wise)!
I'll get back to this after we deal with the other thread I just started. ;)
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Have a quick look at my blog (http://scarthunter.blogspot.com.au/2012/02/finally-loewe-that-will-play-r-type.html). Finally, we have R-Type on a Loewe! Looks pretty cool but the victory doesn't feel as sweet as it would have 3 months ago since I'm an analog chassis guy now. ;)
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Well, good to know! That's useful information anyway. I know that particular Loewe Profil 29" because it was in the bar right down here, I'm pretty sure cause I lunch there everyday. It was replaced by a plasticine-picture LCD just a few months ago.
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I know analogue controlled Sonys are all the rage these days but take a moment to check out a Loewe E3000 chassis in it's prime: The almighty Calida 5072 (http://scarthunter.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/calida-5072.html).
I already sold this beauty on to a fellow enthusiast (console gamer) who was searching for this particular model number. Before I packed it up, I tried my absolute best to get this sucker to show 256 lines without having to drop down in the the >52 Hz PAL zone. I spent a good half hour in Arcade_OSD and just could not get it to happen. The top and/or bottom lines were always missing. I have to conclude that it's just not possible with these TVs. I'd love someone to prove me wrong because the image quality is outstanding...
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So today I was reading the wikipedia and stumbled upon this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL)
Many 1990s onwards VCR players sold in Europe can play back NTSC tapes/discs. When operating in this mode most of them do not output a true (625/25) PAL signal, but rather a hybrid consisting of the original NTSC line standard (525/30), but with colour converted to PAL 4.43 MHz - this is known as "PAL 60" (also "quasi-PAL" or "pseudo PAL") with "60" standing for 60 Hz (for 525/30), instead of 50 Hz (for 625/25). Some video game consoles also output a signal in this mode. Most newer television sets can display such a signal correctly, but some will only do so (if at all) in black and white and/or with flickering/foldover at the bottom of the picture, or picture rolling (however, many old TV sets can display the picture properly by means of adjusting the V-Hold and V-Height knobs — assuming they have them). Some TV tuner cards or video capture cards will support this mode (although software/driver modification can be required and the manufacturers' specs may be unclear). A "PAL 60" signal is similar to an NTSC (525/30) signal, but with the usual PAL chrominance subcarrier at 4.43 MHz (instead of 3.58 as with NTSC and South American PAL variants) and with the PAL-specific phase alternation of the red colour difference signal between the lines.
I'm just thinking that managing this PAL 60 mode might be the reason why these relatively new CRT TVs have problems with 256-line modes, and why in general they tend to mess with vertical centering by themselves, could it be they're trying to compensate for the PAL 60 foldover??
Now, probably you have already tried EVERYTHING, but I remind my Loewe had options to select the SCART's input standard, usually set to AUTO but you could also force it to NTSC, PAL, etc. So, does switching between these standards have any effect on the picture height when in a game?
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Hey Calamity. Thanks for the info and your persistence! :)
I don't currently have an E3000 in the house at the moment. They've all been sold, recycled our trashed. I'm pretty confident that I exhausted all the options. You're right in that the Loewe has per channel options for the NTSC/PAL standards it used. However, none of these settings would allow 240 or 256 lines no matter what I tried in Arcade_OSD. The only way was to force PAL mode by going below 52 Hz.
The reason that I persisted so long with those Loewe E3000 is because of the exceptional image quality. My search now is for an analogue controlled chassis with the same quality. Sometime I'll document the behaviour of these digital type chassis when resizing the image. Changing the height also affects the E/W, pincushion and width. ;) More like squashing an orange (if you can picture that) compared with the neat effect of adjusting height on an analogue chassis (where ONLY the height changes).
I do have a Loewe C9003 in a box waiting for a new power switch. That'll be interesting to test as it's an earlier model (still digital).
Thanks again! :)
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Ok, ok...
So, my girlfriend was out tonight (rock and roll dancing class) and I decided it was about time I fired up this Loewe C9003 chassis I've had sitting around for a while now. This chassis was pulled from a Contur 770. Looked the same as a CT1170 except the plastic casing is grey instead of black. Anyway, the TV cost me $1 but when I got it home I found the power switch was broken. I could push it in and hold it to get power but the TV would turn itself off. Tonight I desoldered an identical switch from a Grundig I found on the street a couple weeks ago. Real pain to do this without a desoldering station... :( Anyway, I soldered the donor switch in, hooked the chassis up to a Philips A66EAK tube I had laying about and fired it up (while standing back in case the sparks started to fly). ;)
Amazingly, the TV came to life and stayed on. :) Picture was very clear with excellent focus (Loewes are great like this). OSD menu system looks pretty retro compared with the later chassis types and the picture is completely free from digital artefacts. Fired up Street Fighter 2 and it looked lovely.
Then, for the real test... R-Type.
Guess what? :) After a little tweak of the Service Menu (V-size only) all the lines where there! Crazy. After all the frustrating Loewes I've tried it was pretty cool to see R-Type showing correctly on a Loewe TV.
Despite the lovely picture, I'll probably stick with my analogues. Service Menus are just too annoying in comparison. However, this is still a pretty cool discovery and certainly adds more weight to the general argument that "older is better" when it comes to CRTs (and LCDs it seems) for use with GroovyMAME.
I'll document this on my blog and list the other models with the C9003 chassis. From what I saw tonight, it would make a great choice for someone looking to run GroovyMAME on a SCART TV.
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Is there some way to describe how digital artifacts in this context look like? I only can think of anything like when watching DVB-streams while having a bad connection or compression-artifacts in digital-movies/-pictures, but I guess these differ.
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Nice find!
I now have a total of 3 (21", 25" & 28") AE-1 chassis Sony TVs! So ill be doing the pot mod that Paradroid has done at some point.
Speaking of which, do you have the service manual for the AE-1 chassis Paradroid which as the ratings for the pots??
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I now have a total of 3 (21", 25" & 28") AE-1 chassis Sony TVs!
Far out man! How'd you find all them?! I've been looking everywhere here and haven't seen any sign of another AE-1. I still need to make the time to play with the one I have and discover it's potential... might just be the ultimate, that one. :) I'm interested to know the models so I can put them on the spreadsheet I've started.
Is there some way to describe how digital artifacts in this context look like?
Yes. Hard to capture with a camera though, I've found. The effect is often subtle and the natural blur effect of the camera tends to hide it.
I were to try and describe the effects of a Loewe or Grundig 100 Hz model, I'd say the biggest problem is colour bleed and edge distortion. Some colours and colour combinations are far worse than others. For example, red against black looks terrible (opening text to Street Fighter III). Also, in Rainbow Islands, on a 100 Hz Loewe, the rainbows look completely distorted. Almost like the graphics ROMs have been corrupted. :(
On some of the digital chassis 50/60 Hz models, the processing is more subtle but you definitely notice a difference between them and, say, the ancient Sony AE-1 chassis Lettuce mentioned. It's as if the image is artificially sharp or something. I don't know... easy to see, hard to describe.
Anyway, these are some of the reasons that I continue to search. It's fascinating to observe the differences. It's a pretty cheap hobby when you're chasing SCART TVs. Of course, if I were buying actual arcade chassis this kind of fussiness would get expense real quick. ;)
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Just for the record, here's a photo of the Loewe C9003 chassis showing 256 lines. I tried to go 288 as well but the screen just rolled (even though the image looked complete).
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So by their very nature what are Scart TVs capable of, just a 15khz display or are the 24khz?? As I know the snes console did resolutions like 256x224 up to 512x478 which are both 15khz & 24khz resolutions aren't they? But then also the first Xbox did resolutions as high as 640x480 and 800x600 and I'm sure these are 31khz signals?. So are TVs multisync compatable then??
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So by their very nature what are Scart TVs capable of, just a 15khz display or are the 24khz?? As I know the snes console did resolutions like 256x224 up to 512x478 which are both 15khz & 24khz resolutions aren't they? But then also the first Xbox did resolutions as high as 640x480 and 800x600 and I'm sure these are 31khz signals?. So are TVs multisync compatable then??
If SNES did 512x478 it must have been interlaced for sure. TVs are 15.7 KHz only, although some of them can tolerate up to 16 KHz or more.
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So by their very nature what are Scart TVs capable of, just a 15khz display or are the 24khz?? As I know the snes console did resolutions like 256x224 up to 512x478 which are both 15khz & 24khz resolutions aren't they? But then also the first Xbox did resolutions as high as 640x480 and 800x600 and I'm sure these are 31khz signals?. So are TVs multisync compatable then??
If SNES did 512x478 it must have been interlaced for sure. TVs are 15.7 KHz only, although some of them can tolerate up to 16 KHz or more.
Yeah thats what i thought. Using Groovymame as an example, take the game Rampage which is a 24khz game how come that is able to be displayed on a CRT Scart TV, does groovymame not output it at 24khz or something??
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Hi lettuce,
Actually Midway MCR-III games used an interlaced display, so they run at 30 Hz (60Hz interlaced - 15 KHz).
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1889184 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1889184)
A sample of 24 Khz resolution is 512x384@60Hz, like the one used by ssprint. What GroovyMAME would do with this resolution depends on your monitor setup in mame.ini. If you select a plain CGA monitor, GroovyMAME will 'virtualize' this resolution to 640x480@60i.
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Hi lettuce,
Actually Midway MCR-III games used an interlaced display, so they run at 30 Hz (60Hz interlaced - 15 KHz).
http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1889184 (http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?p=1889184)
A sample of 24 Khz resolution is 512x384@60Hz, like the one used by ssprint. What GroovyMAME would do with this resolution depends on your monitor setup in mame.ini. If you select a plain CGA monitor, GroovyMAME will 'virtualize' this resolution to 640x480@60i.
So what would it do if you were using a multisync monitor (CGA/EGA/VGA)?
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Well then of course it will use a 24kHz (EGA) modeline for 512x384@60.
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Just wanted to chime in and thank you guys for how helpful this thread has been for me.
Started using soft15khz about 2 years ago with a metz tv in my cab - it ended up having issues which were beyond the scope of my abilities to fix. Decided recently to start looking for another scart tv and discovered calamitys drivers and groovymame - great work.
After reading paradroids blog (fellow aussie, so found it very helpful) I managed to get my hands on two Loewes -
Profil 3470 - e3001 phillips blackline s tube
Contur 770
The image quality on the Profil was outstanding so the tube and chassis are now happily mounted in cab. However it has some geometry issues which I am trying to resolve through the service menu (carefully). Im using the nokia calibration software and having a hard time getting my head around which values in the service menu effect what - any advice for a novice like myself? Or is type of stuff best left to a proffesional.
Also experiencing missing lines in some games like dkong, raiden, frogger , mk etc. Ive checked the overscan (V-amp) and the lines are definately missing. Should I be opening these resolutions in arcade_osd and tweaking the values to try and correct this? Once you save any changes in arcade_osd do you need to run vmmaker again?
Paradroid - I noticed in another thread you planned on experimenting a bit with c64 emulation and scart TVs, have you had any success with perfect PAL sync, since the c64 has a horizontal refresh of 50.12hz Ive never managed to get smooth scrolling with emulators like Winvice. I managed to use arcade_osd to get a refresh rate extremely close with my loewe which is definately a big improvement but still drops frames here and there. Getting perfect c64 emulation on my cab is one of my ultimate goals! :laugh:
Anyway thanks heaps guys and keep up the good work!
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Hello,
Awesome post, a lot of useful informations here.
Big kudos to Calamity and Paradroid (awesome blog!!)
Best regards.
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Just wanted to chime in and thank you guys for how helpful this thread has been for me.
Glad you got something out of it! This thread turned into a bit of an epic... I certainly learnt a lot from it! ;)
Profil 3470 - e3001 phillips blackline s tube
Contur 770
Cool. So, you've got an E3001 and C9003 chassis, correct? In my experience, the E3001 has less geometry issues than the E3000 (which develops a trapezium effect when the refresh rate moves away from 60 Hz). I assume the Profil has an ESF type Philips tube? These are flatter than the EAK tubes. The C9003 is probably coupled with an older type tube. You can get that thing looking awesome by hooking it up to a newer Philips tube (I tried this myself).
The image quality on the Profil was outstanding so the tube and chassis are now happily mounted in cab.
Those Loewes are pretty nice, hey? :)
However it has some geometry issues which I am trying to resolve through the service menu (carefully).
Got some pics? I can probably tell you if it's something that can be corrected. Some old chassis can't be adjusted to "perfect". I assume this is to do with the age of certain components. For example, I went through three Loewe CT1170s. Two could produce pretty much perfect geometry but the other had an issue with the width (couldn't be expanded all the way).
Im using the nokia calibration software and having a hard time getting my head around which values in the service menu effect what - any advice for a novice like myself?
Tell me the specifics and I'll try to help. There are a lot of options for colour calibration and some stuff do with "H blanking" on the E3001. Those options won't help your geometry though.
Or is type of stuff best left to a proffesional.
I think a lot of professionals have the attitude of "you can watch the news on it, right? Well? What are you complaining about then?" I could be wrong though. :) I think enthusiasts like us are more likely to spend the time searching for "perfect" rather than "good enough". Actual repairs are different to adjusting and tweaking, of course.
I'll get back to your other questions tomorrow... Until then, where about are you located? I'm in Melbourne. You're welcome to stop by and check out all my junk if you're in the area. Cheers!
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Also experiencing missing lines in some games like dkong, raiden, frogger , mk etc. Ive checked the overscan (V-amp) and the lines are definately missing.
You'll know from the beginning of this thread that I struggled with getting more than 224 vertical lines to show on a Loewe. :( No amount of tweaking in Arcade_OSD solved the problem. The only way was to force PAL mode by lowering the refresh rate dramatically.
The C9003 chassis will do 256 lines but not the E3000 or E3001. Later models (Q2400 and such) have the same issue. Check with your Contur 770 and see if it has the same problem...
I noticed in another thread you planned on experimenting a bit with c64 emulation and scart TVs, have you had any success with perfect PAL sync, since the c64 has a horizontal refresh of 50.12hz Ive never managed to get smooth scrolling with emulators like Winvice.
Hmm. I've only touched on the C64 stuff briefly. I had a couple games of (you guessed it ;) ) Paradoid using WinVice. I didn't notice the sync issues because Paradroid was never smooth to start with. Looked amazing on a 26 inch screen though! I never had such a huge telly for my C64 when I was a kid.
What would be awesome is if we all chipped in and bought Calamity's wife a weekend away to some kind of health spa (or the opposite, her choice ;) ) so he could stay home and work out how to apply his modeline engine to MESS. That'd open up the world of native CRT modes to a whole range of systems...
I'll be the first to pledge AUD $100 towards that weekend retreat. ;)
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Cool. So, you've got an E3001 and C9003 chassis, correct? In my experience, the E3001 has less geometry issues than the E3000 (which develops a trapezium effect when the refresh rate moves away from 60 Hz). I assume the Profil has an ESF type Philips tube? These are flatter than the EAK tubes. The C9003 is probably coupled with an older type tube. You can get that thing looking awesome by hooking it up to a newer Philips tube (I tried this myself).
I haven't spent much time with the contur as when i turned it on the picture was shifted downwards about 3cm and squashed - I'm assuming the v-amp and v-position just need to be adjusted but it didn't come with a remote. When I get a chance I will try access the service menu with the profil remote and have a bit of a play with it. But yeah, have the e3001 chassis in the Profil, I had a friend help me mount it in the cab and we were amazed at how easy the Loewes are to pull apart. Pretty much had it all out and neatly mounted in under an hour. The metz on the other hand was a massive pain in the butt - which is mainly the reason why it's taken me such a long time to get motivated and replace it. So glad I did now , I can totally understand why you have a collection :) It makes me cringe to think of how many good CRT's have been destroyed, feel like I need to save them all!
Got some pics? I can probably tell you if it's something that can be corrected. Some old chassis can't be adjusted to "perfect". I assume this is to do with the age of certain components. For example, I went through three Loewe CT1170s. Two could produce pretty much perfect geometry but the other had an issue with the width (couldn't be expanded all the way).
That would be awesome! :cheers: I will post some pics and more detail about what values I have been playing with a bit later on tonight (will be a bit busy for the next few hours). I had some success with it last night and managed to get fairly straight horizontal edges but the whole picture is skewed from top to bottom, It doesn't seem like there is anyway to correct this?
Tell me the specifics and I'll try to help. There are a lot of options for colour calibration and some stuff do with "H blanking" on the E3001. Those options won't help your geometry though.
I've adjusted Hblank start/stop so it's just a few lines outside the horizontal edges of the test pattern, I'm assuming this is correct?
I'll get back to your other questions tomorrow... Until then, where about are you located? I'm in Melbourne. You're welcome to stop by and check out all my junk if you're in the area. Cheers!
I'm on the Gold Coast but if I lived down that way I would definitely stop in say gday :D Likewise, if your ever up this way for whatever reason let me know - your welcome to visit and check out my 'lab' :D
(https://img.skitch.com/20120502-qmfue8a1qj4572u3a2akjh2xrx.preview.jpg) (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8aeaw/photo-1-05-12-10-14-51-pm)Click for large view (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8aeaw/photo-1-05-12-10-14-51-pm)
As for Winvice, I'm using Uridium and Turrican as my test games as they both should have silky smooth scrolling. If you ever get a chance can you give them a whirl and let me know how they run on your setup.
I will test the 256 line games on the contur and report back, Is there a quick and dirty way to get around this limitation in the meantime? [EDIT - Just re-read your post and realised you said there was absolutely no way! Damn what a shame] I also have a about 5 different ATI cards, do different cards offer more flexibility with resolutions.
I will post a follow up later on with some pics of the Profil geometry, thanks so much for the response!
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I'll be the first to pledge AUD $100 towards that weekend retreat. ;)
Sounds good to me! How much do we need to come up with! :D
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I have been following the various MAME-scart treads with great interest, and I have to admit I have become a scart scavenger.Very addictive.
I have found 25" (59cm) tubes to be ideal for my cabinets. However, they are a bit difficult to come by, and the chassis they are paired with often are less then ideal and have digital artifacts (especially dot crawl).
Based on advice in thise threads I have collected some TV sets with Philips A59EAK... tubes. However, I am currently looking for chassis upgrades i.e. analog chassis or older chassis with less artifacts. I wonder if it is possible to swap chassis from larger TV sets with e.g. A66EAK to my A59EAK tubes (many Grundigs and Philips have the same chassis for different tube sizes). To my understanding this should be OK as long av the yokes have similar readings.
Anyone having experience or advice in this regard?
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Based on advice in thise threads I have collected some TV sets with Philips A59EAK... tubes.
Hmm... A59EAK... don't think I've come across that size before. Recently, I found a Bang & Olufsen MX 4002 on the road side. That had a Philips tube in it. Forget the size. I try to blog most stuff but I keep getting in a situation where it's the weekend I just have to get rid of some stuff and forget to take photos. I think maybe it was a A51EAK?
Anyway, I have two older Grundig CUC 6300 chassis TVs here. Both are 51cm... still not what you're after! Shame... I could have posted you one!
I would recommend looking through the service manuals for Grundig and Philips. Certainly, the Grundig SMs have notes on which components need to be changed in order accommodate different sized tubes. I would certainly recommend an older Grundig chassis. The 4/5/6xxx series analogue chassis have all been excellent for GroovyMAME. Basically fire up GroovyMAME, adjust the vertical size pot when switching resolutions and every thing is close to perfect.
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I'm on the Gold Coast but if I lived down that way I would definitely stop in say gday :D Likewise, if your ever up this way for whatever reason let me know - your welcome to visit and check out my 'lab' :D
Thanks man! I haven't been up that way for years now. I love the warm weather... plus, I have have great memories of the awesome arcades (and Grundys!) on the Gold Coast back in the late '80s and early '90s.
Your "lab" looks really fun! I wish I had that much space! No room for doing cab stuff here... :( Also, you've got a Battlestation II!!! How cool are they?! I gutted mine and put the innards of some USB gamepads in there. Works great! I actually picked it up in a Cash Converters on the Sunshine Coast for $25 back in 2000. :)
Let's see some pics of your E3001 problems and I'll let you know what I think is possible... If your cab was loaded with an EAK tube instead of the ESF I would have offered to send you the guts of a Siemens I have here (Grundig CUC 6360 chassis from memory...) that is far more compatible than the Loewes (but with a small sacrifice in image focus and stability).
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What would be awesome is if we all chipped in and bought Calamity's wife a weekend away to some kind of health spa (or the opposite, her choice ;) ) so he could stay home and work out how to apply his modeline engine to MESS. That'd open up the world of native CRT modes to a whole range of systems...
Ahaha :laugh2:
Yes that would definitely help but might end up with me getting drunk the very first night. By the way I am not that familiar with MESS and I remind I read it was a somewhat promising project but required too much resources compared to specific emulators, so it was in a too early stage as to consider it a valid substitute for the myriad of emulators out there. But this was long ago so probably it's not true anymore, does any one have some experience with it? I believe it shouldn't be too hard to adapt the modeline engine.
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Hmm... A59EAK... don't think I've come across that size before. Recently, I found a Bang & Olufsen MX 4002 on the road side. That had a Philips tube in it. Forget the size. I try to blog most stuff but I keep getting in a situation where it's the weekend I just have to get rid of some stuff and forget to take photos. I think maybe it was a A51EAK?
I can confirm that the B&O MX4002 have A51EAK. I have two units, but the B&O chassis were disappointing for GroovyMAME use. Would like to swap chassis if I find a good match. The B&Os looks terrific though.
Anyway, I have two older Grundig CUC 6300 chassis TVs here. Both are 51cm... still not what you're after! Shame... I could have posted you one!
I live in Norway, so guess it is the same dilemma as you and Apfelannie have been discussing :)
I would recommend looking through the service manuals for Grundig and Philips. Certainly, the Grundig SMs have notes on which components need to be changed in order accommodate different sized tubes. I would certainly recommend an older Grundig chassis. The 4/5/6xxx series analogue chassis have all been excellent for GroovyMAME. Basically fire up GroovyMAME, adjust the vertical size pot when switching resolutions and every thing is close to perfect.
Actually, part of the reason for posting the topic is that I recently picked up a Grundig with cuc 4410 chassis and A66EAK tube. Several of the chassis that you and Apfelannie have been recommending are much easier to find with larger tubes. A list of components to change would be perfect. Guess I have to do some research on the service manuals. However, not having a background in electronics makes them difficult to understand :dizzy:
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philips a59eak...x01and a66eak..x01 have the same yoke and are 100 % compatible . they work with loewe , grundig , metz , blaupunkt and even with some sharp tv chassis . its the most common eu 50-60 hertz tube of the last 25 years i guess. 25 inch to 28 inch may have a manufacturer ratio of 1:10 , so the smaller ones are spread a little thin . the 28 inch are ok , but i prefer the 25 and 21/20 inch class for lowres gaming . these kind of tubes also work well with hantarex polostar multisync chassis 15-38 khz and valvo ( philips ) 93-10 , 93-11 .
i have to remind u : forget about the 100 hertz brothers . maybe a lot of people try to mame a 100 hertz tv .. its a pita .. the 100 hertz chassis suck ass .. i only consider em in vga mode , when all the picure enhancers are bypassed / disabled . all scart attempts with 100 hertz tvs presented an artifical more lcd like picture. the pictrue may not be that bad , but i has nothing in common woth old style arcade gaming .
.. anyone in euroland shouldnt have a prob finding a fitting philips , grundig , sony or whatever for arcade replacement .... i m still surprised how many eu brands made it down to australia .. thought the market would have been more dominated by asian brands , like the us market. grundig manuals are available anywhere .. most philips on philips.com .. metz took most manuals of their homepage , coz they wonna sell flatscreens and dont wonna support any more old crts.
here are some useful docs and links : https://rapidshare.com/files/3565851615/chassis.rar
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By the way I am not that familiar with MESS and I remind I read it was a somewhat promising project but required too much resources compared to specific emulators, so it was in a too early stage as to consider it a valid substitute for the myriad of emulators out there.
Ah... To be honest, although I always read the change logs, I've never actually tried using MESS myself. I just figured it was the most likely emulator to include this kind of CRT support. However, as you say, not much use if the actual system emulation isn't up to scratch... :(
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I live in Norway, so guess it is the same dilemma as you and Apfelannie have been discussing :)
I have no qualm paying for postage or a courier. Even if the original TV that housed the chassis only costs 1 Euro to acquire, chances are the huge postage costs from the Northern to Southern hemisphere are still going to work out cheaper than buying an actual arcade chassis locally. Plus, from everything I've seen in people's collections and local arcades, many of these SCART units have a superior image.
I'd still love to establish some kind of transcontinental trade in vintage European TV chassis with a fellow SCART hunter from the upper part of the world. Obviously I occasionally find some gems here but most of the upper middle class types that bought these TVs originally aren't going to bother advertising their old Euro TV on eBay.com.au for the sake of a couple bucks. They'll just throw it in the gutter instead. :(
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here are some useful docs and links
Thanks heaps, Apple Annie! :) There are a few treats in there that will save me a lot of Google time in the future. Cheers!
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Thanks man! I haven't been up that way for years now. I love the warm weather... plus, I have have great memories of the awesome arcades (and Grundys!) on the Gold Coast back in the late '80s and early '90s.
Yep, spent a good deal of my youth in Grundy's :D I remember that place being packed wall to wall with arcades at one stage - It's actually a Timezone now, I still take my daughter up there a fair bit but it's nothing like the old days.
Also, you've got a Battlestation II!!! How cool are they?! I gutted mine and put the innards of some USB gamepads in there. Works great! I actually picked it up in a Cash Converters on the Sunshine Coast for $25 back in 2000. :)
:D Can't believe you spotted that, I'm planning on popping some sanwa joysticks in mine and doing the same thing.
Let's see some pics of your E3001 problems and I'll let you know what I think is possible... If your cab was loaded with an EAK tube instead of the ESF I would have offered to send you the guts of a Siemens I have here (Grundig CUC 6360 chassis from memory...) that is far more compatible than the Loewes (but with a small sacrifice in image focus and stability).
Okay on with the pics, I've done my best to capture the irregularities. It's really difficult as It's behind glass and I have the insides sprayed black so you can't really see the edges of the CRT as a reference.
(https://img.skitch.com/20120503-mqcicu9bj1hqhnt6s1c4xphxkn.preview.jpg) (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a14m/photo-3-05-12-5-56-45-pm)Click for large view (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a14m/photo-3-05-12-5-56-45-pm) - Uploaded with Skitch (http://skitch.com)
Looks a lot more curved in the pic than what it actually is.
(https://img.skitch.com/20120503-md426bj4t2rkp7csg7fe1sd7jf.preview.jpg) (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a15f/photo-3-05-12-5-57-48-pm)Click for large view (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a15f/photo-3-05-12-5-57-48-pm) - Uploaded with Skitch (http://skitch.com)
Is there any particular resolution that i should be making adjustments too?
(https://img.skitch.com/20120503-mxjywc57w7k7c3hq6q3b1gfu1q.preview.jpg) (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a15c/photo-3-05-12-5-58-04-pm)Click for large view (https://skitch.com/shinobi/8a15c/photo-3-05-12-5-58-04-pm) - Uploaded with Skitch (http://skitch.com)
Tried to capture the skewed effect here, you can just faintly make out the edge of the crt and notice how it's not parallel to the edge. The whole image is basically skewed from bottom right to top left.
I don't really have any problems swapping it out with another one but damn they are getting harder and harder to find! BTW the tube is A66EAK
I turned on the contur 770 last night and tried to access the service menu with the profil remote, seems I can use the menu button but the navigation controls don't seem to work, tried with an all in one remote too, damn!
Cheers!
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Just on a side note - I managed to sort out my c64 emulation issue's by switching to an emulator called Hoxs64. It's regularly updated and boasts 100% cycle exact c64 emulation, it's pretty cool. I set the refresh to the original 64 50.12hz and set 384x288@50.100hz in Arcade_OSD and I have to say it's spot on! Silky smooth scrolling in Uridium and feels just like a real c64 :applaud:
Also, Paradriod - I'm looking to pick this up - http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300703212044?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649#ht_500wt_1413 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/300703212044?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1431.l2649#ht_500wt_1413)
not many details in the listing, any idea's of what model it might be and what to expect with groovymame etc from it?
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Yep, spent a good deal of my youth in Grundy's :D I remember that place being packed wall to wall with arcades at one stage
Hellz yeah! :) I remember going in there as a kid and having my mind blown by a brand new Ghouls'n Ghosts machine. Then there was Operation Wolf, 3 screen Ninja Warriors... wow. Very cool. Just jam packed with games...
Tried to capture the skewed effect here, you can just faintly make out the edge of the crt and notice how it's not parallel to the edge. The whole image is basically skewed from bottom right to top left.
Right. I see what you're saying. I assume you've fiddled with the E/W and Trapezium values in the Service Menu? The Loewes have two values for each. The service manual describes them as "reciprocal" ??? ... in practise this means you fiddle with Trapezium 1 and Trapezium 2 and observed the combined effect. All four values interact and you have to experiment to find the best combination.
Do the top and bottom edges line up perfectly? It looks as if they do in the picture... I've seen heaps of Philips tubes where the picture was tilted and the geometry wasn't perfect because of this. I've only recently worked out how to correct this by rotating the yoke. Actually very easy if you're brave enough to do it. :)
If neither of those approaches works out you're probably stuck with those niggles. :(
Since you're running an A66EAK you could certainly hook up the C9003 chassis in your Contur or one of the boards I have here. Most chassis actually fit neatly in a box that Australia Post sells for $3. I could send you a great Grundig chassis for what I paid for it plus postage. Plugs straight into an A66EAK. I'd say the geometry is better than your Loewe and you certainly won't have the same issues with 256 line games. PM me if you're interested. Not trying to make any money, just helping out. :)
I turned on the contur 770 last night and tried to access the service menu with the profil remote
You need the older black remote with the slide down section. There are yellow and blue arrows along with plus and minus buttons. You need those for the Service Menu. Last year, before I got hold of one of them (I have a few now ;) ), I spend a whole morning juggling two universal remotes before I discovered all the key codes I needed to tweak the Contur 1470 I recently sold.
Just on a side note - I managed to sort out my c64 emulation issue's by switching to an emulator called Hoxs64.
Sweet as! :) I'll definitely check that out on the weekend! Do you have a copy of the modeline you used? Can copy and paste from Winmodelines...
Oh, and that Grundig you linked to... of course I already saw that on my radar. ;D Get the model number from the seller and Apple Annie or myself will tell you what you can expect. I've tried some similar looking Grundigs (CUC 2030 and CUC 2050) and they were both far more flexible than the Loewes. Some have Philips tubes and others have Video Color tubes (made in Italy).
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philips a59eak...x01and a66eak..x01 have the same yoke and are 100 % compatible . they work with loewe , grundig , metz , blaupunkt and even with some sharp tv chassis ....these kind of tubes also work well with hantarex polostar multisync chassis 15-38 khz and valvo ( philips ) 93-10 , 93-11 .
Now that's interesting. So far I have been looking for 25" only, but now I have to start looking for larger sets with compatible chassis as well. Oh dear, my house is to small for this hobby...
What about A59EAK...X02, ...X03 etc. - is it possible to generalize about these in terms of competability (yoke inductance)? Would a A59EAK...X02 and A66EAK...X02 be compatible as well?
here are some useful docs and links : https://rapidshare.com/files/3565851615/chassis.rar
Thanks a lot. Really useful reference documents.
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I have no qualm paying for postage or a courier. Even if the original TV that housed the chassis only costs 1 Euro to acquire, chances are the huge postage costs from the Northern to Southern hemisphere are still going to work out cheaper than buying an actual arcade chassis locally. Plus, from everything I've seen in people's collections and local arcades, many of these SCART units have a superior image. I'd still love to establish some kind of transcontinental trade in vintage European TV chassis with a fellow SCART hunter from the upper part of the world.
I will look around for analog chassis. However, shipping in Norway is very expensive even for domestic postage, so expect it to be costly. You definitely have a point when comparing the shipping cost of a good TV chassis to the cost of an arcade chassis though.
Obviously I occasionally find some gems here but most of the upper middle class types that bought these TVs originally aren't going to bother advertising their old Euro TV on eBay.com.au for the sake of a couple bucks. They'll just throw it in the gutter instead. :(
I can confirm that the situation is the same in Norway. Lots of more recent TVs are given away for free. TVs from early 90s and late 80s are more difficult to come by as people just hand them in for disposal/recycling. The best place to find old TVs are outside shops selling modern TVs as these shops are legally required to accept old TVs for disposal/recycling.
My complements to your blog, Paradroid. Lots of interesting reading. I find your method of pairing an old analog chassis with a more recent tube to be compelling. For me this also adds the dimension of tube size as I want 25" (A59) tubes for cabinet use. Tube/chassis/yoke swap business here I come! I was particularly impressed with your yoke swaps with bonded yokes. I thought this was impossible. I guess I have to find a disposable tube and start practicing.
Thanks!
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I will look around for analog chassis. However, shipping in Norway is very expensive even for domestic postage, so expect it to be costly.
Yeah, well, I guess you can't get much further from Australia than Norway. ;) I appreciate the fact that you're even considering this. If you happen to find an analogue beauty, we can look into the postage then. Some of the CUC 5/6xxx series Grundig chassis are probably lighter than the archaic CUC 4635 Apple Annie found for me. I have a CUC 6360 (with some image stability issues) that looks extremely promising if it were to be repaired...
I was particularly impressed with your yoke swaps with bonded yokes. I thought this was impossible. I guess I have to find a disposable tube and start practising.
It's actually very easy once you know how. :) The hardest part was building up the courage to give it a go. I quite like being alive so I didn't want to electrocute myself or create some kind of X-ray gun. ;)
Basically, you just need to slide a knife under the silicon blobs and carefully slice by pressing against the tube. Once all four blobs have been sliced, you loosen the neck clamp using a hex key. The yoke slides clean off after that! I took the opportunity to clean the neck and dust off the replacement yoke before transplanting. You can easily rotate the yoke while the TV is running in order to get the image properly aligned. Then, you just tighten the bracket to hold it in place. Once I was satisfied with the geometry, I lay the TV face down and hot glued the yoke into place (at the same points that the original glue blobs were in).
You don't really need to sacrifice a tube to try this operation. If you work carefully I'm sure you could reverse all the steps and end up back where you started without having damaged anything. The main risk I can see is accidentally cutting some of the yoke windings when slicing through the chunks of glue.
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Dear Mopsta, would you please share the details of the modeline you are using with Hoxs64? Or at least, how did you manage to have it starting directly in full-screen, as there doesn't seem to be any command line parameter or configuration options for doing so? Thank you!
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Hi Calamity,
A while ago the flyback on my favorite Blaupunkt (http://scarthunter.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/q-ultimate-mamescart-television-quiet.html) burnt out. I've ordered a new one and hopefully the TV can be revived. Fingers crossed!
In the meantime, I came across another rare and very nice Loewe Calida 5072 (http://scarthunter.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/calida-5072.html). As this thread documents, the E3000 chassis has amazing picture quality but it's not the most compatible board.
I have done some further tests with E3000 and have discovered the following:
In PAL mode, 285 lines is maximum possible before the TV starts to crop lines. 52 Hz is about the upper limit before the picture rolls.
In NTSC mode, only a measly 233 lines can be shown before the image is cropped! 57 Hz is the lowest refresh rate possible before the picture rolls. I've had the refresh up to 63 Hz but the geometry starts to distort a little.
So, there's a big gap in the middle where the TV won't sync. Also, to get 240 and 256 lines games to show, they need to be pushed down into the PAL mode.
The 285 and 233 lines limits I'm confident about. The vertical frequency ranges may have a little more play in them, but not much.
My question is: how do I define a set of monitor specs that force 233+ line games to always run in PAL mode (with a lower refresh).
Also, how do I get the games to run smoothly (albeit with a lower refresh than usual) instead of with tripple buffer?
Basically, I want to make sure all lines are showing at the expense of original refresh rate.
It would be nice to finally get a working solution for the E3000 after so much effort has gone into it... :)
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Hi Paradroid,
Try this in mame.ini:
monitor custom
crt_range0 15625-16200, 49.50-52.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 285, 448, 570
crt_range1 15625-16200, 57.00-63.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 233, 448, 466
synrefresh_tolerance 10.0
syncrefresh 1
You don't need to change anything in vmmaker.ini, just use the modelines available.
This should send each resolution through the right range, so the refresh rates keep within the expected ones for the Calida and the gap is not used. The -syncrefresh part is to force all games to synchronize despite the wrong refresh.
A shame about the Blaupunkt :-[ Hopefully you can fix it with the new flyback.
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Old thread but i guess it's the best place to ask.
Since two days i have a Loewe Calida 72 52460 and i need to sort the collection and decide what i keep.
Is there somewhere something where you can see what tube is what? With google i find nothing.
There is: Blackline D, Blackline S, Blackline S Ultra Flat...
The Calida has a tube i never saw before. It's a KSM (A68KSM696X01)
My Concept Plus 52431 (Concept 7000) has a A66EAK252X01 and on the back of the TV it says BlackLine S
Then i have two A59EAK071X01 and one A59EAK71X01 < whats the difference?
I have three A66EAK71X01 but i know there is also A66EAK071X11.
What i like to do is use the CUC5360 (all have A66EAK) with the A59EAK tubes.
If i look into the service manuals the CRT Base has different IC, resistors and capacitors for different tubes.
@Paradroid, if i look at your block you just swap stuff around like there is nothing to look at or worry about?
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@Paradroid, if i look at your block you just swap stuff around like there is nothing to look at or worry about?
I swapped the yokes to be sure the impedance was the same. That way you don't need to worry about changing anything on the chassis.
As for the questions about the tubes, man, I would just keep all of those. ;)
We only get rubbish in New Zealand compared with what you're sitting on.