Build Your Own Arcade Controls Forum
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Harakiri on February 13, 2011, 11:25:37 am
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Good afternoon fellow BYOAC members!
A few days ago i watched this video on youtube which made me curious regarding CRT monitor obsolescence:
£50 VGA Scaler with RGB SCART mod & SLG3000 in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvv4rHRaVpk#ws)
Although, pricey for the components and a fiddly process to build the wiring harness, do you think we'll see a majority of MAME cabinets with LCDs rather than arcade CRTs?
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Actually, the purpose of the video is showing RBG upscaled with a sync cleaner and a scanline generator. Doesn't have anything to do with MAME. For MAME, you can just use the scanline generator to get similar results. That home-built sync cleaner is being prototyped into a PCB version with RGB scart input and d-sub output right now by the same guy who's currently selling the scanline generator (SLG3000).
To get the results above on an LCD screen you'd normally have to spend hundreds of dollars (XRBG2 scaler). Let's hope we'll see a one-in-all unit in the future for current/next gen screens but with a complete CRT emulation.
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A few days ago i watched this video on youtube which made me curious regarding CRT monitor obsolescence:
Although, pricey for the components and a fiddly process to build the wiring harness, do you think we'll see a majority of MAME cabinets with LCDs rather than arcade CRTs?
CRT's becoming obsolete used to be a matter of when, not if. Not anymore.
Cheap CRT's in the form of TV's and monitors are still fairly easy to find, but it's difficult to get a 4:3 LCD and very difficult to get a new CRT.
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This is merely a scanline effect.
However, its not even close to being a true CRT match.
An older arcade monitor has a lower dot pitch (larger red,green & blue dots which make up each pixel) The colors shadowmask is more than likely also larger and thicker. The combination of these two cause colors to change a bit, and also to blend with the nearest neighboring colors.
A good example, is to find a game in mame that has a checkerboard pattern of dots. In the arcade, they did this on purpose, to either blend colors, or to make something look translucent. (such as a menu or character like a ghost or see-thru fireball)
After a certain era of time, arcade monitors became more and more like PC monitors. Higher dot pitch, higher resolution, virtually no color bleed, nor color accuracy issues. When Ops replaced the original older monitors, all the classics looked different... but not everyone realized it... and soon many people have pretty much forgotten what their favorite games were actually designed to look like.
The only way this is going to be simulated, is if someone can work out an algorithm for dot pitch based effects, taking into account each R,G,B dot size, color / brightness bleed, color mixing..etc. Until then, all the classics seen are not accurate to how they were designed to be seen.
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Are can see here in the Pic of my Turbo monitor:
A) Overall, the colors do not completely match the PC Monitor. While the arcade monitor may be off a little in adjustment, you can see that there are no glaring HUE issues - as all colors are visibly accounted for. (see each car having a different color)
B) The road has no "grain" to it. The grain coming from the much larger shadow-mask. (not the scanline. A shadowmask is the mesh wire grid that separates each red,green, and blue phosphor dot)
C) You can clearly see the Car used Hot Pink on it... which NEVER would have been done intentionally, unless it was Intended to be blended with other colors.
D) Lots of other single pixel colors which are staggered to create a different color shade, as seen in the real turbo. Again, not intentionally meant to be seen individually as on the PC Monitor.
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If you look at this magnified car, you will see what looks like Wavy black lines.
We all know that the Shadowmask isnt wavy. Its an alternating grid.
What you are seeing is an optical illusion.
When looking at an old CRT under magnification, I was amazed to see that each RGB phosphor could be completely lit, or partially lit. Meaning... that you could see the left half of a blue phosphor dot lit up only.. rather than the entire dot being lit. (Its been a while, so it might have just been the triad group, but im pretty sure it was each phosphor last time I looked)
The other reasons for the Wavy line... is that the light is spilling over the boundarys of the shadowmask... partially obscuring the lines.
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I've learned a few things already with your feedback, i appreciate it!
Is it possible in the years to come for someone to develop a hardware module with scaling features, phosphor emulation traits (lower dot pitch, hue/bleed issues, etc.)? Even possible integration with ArcadeVGA?
This is not a request, just a rant! :)
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I think anything is possible. Is it likely? Not so sure about that.
An example is a vector monitor.
They put out eyeball burning amounts of light, (as well as an amazing glow)... similar to a laser in intensity. Yet when you look at the bullets in Asteriods for mame on a typical CRT, its both barely visible, And even at max brightness, will never be as bright as a Vector monitor. Not even close. (nor is there any spread-out glow)
However, if you take a photograph of a vector monitor with a good camera and correct settings, you can capture the magic, and view the result on your PC monitor... and it will come pretty close to the experience.
Why is that?
The PC monitor cant create the brightness with a direct digital translation of the pixel information... however, the camera can capture the final "optical illusion" thats created from viewing at a distance. Things like blur, color changes..etc.. all captured in a sort of translated way that would not seem obvious nor intuitive to someone trying to draw the effect/stuff by hand.
The pc can create what "appears" like blinding laser light, from use of different colors placed strategically next to each other.
From studying the end result in person, as well as the photographic effects captured, you could devise a way to simulate the effects in realtime.
This example is much more realistic to vector monitor simulation... because CRT emulation is about 1000x more complicated. However, as said, its not impossible.
I wonder if a supercomputer programmed to analyze such data could use AI to formulate an algorithm in a short period of time...
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Example of super-bright intensity translated by a Photographic process, displayed on a Non-bright pc monitor... and still retaining the intense look.
(green light laser)
Note, the bright spots are just about what the Asteroids Deluxe bullets Should look like. (in blue, rather than green of course)
How is it possible that the effect feels so bright? Optical Illusion.
Note a few things...
a) the use of nearly white instead of green for the bright spot
b) a shadow (MUCH darker color) near the bright spot
c) slight blurring and changes in color values
The biggest factor is the shadow color that is placed right near the bright color.
This creates an illusion of intense light / brightness.
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I don't know why the software can't just tell the monitor not to draw every other line of 'yea' thickness....
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There just isn't enough resolution in an lcd to reproduce the effect properly. If we use the "retina display" as a bench mark, that means a 19" 4:3 lcd needs to be around 4564x3586. Good luck finding a monitor even close to that.
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This is a liitle bit more fair than Xiaou2's images. This is an LCD panel with ScanRez2 filter running. While not perfect, its pretty ---smurfing--- great, I think:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=109570.0;attach=161490;image)
Since I have a Scramble, I thought I'd do a side by side compare to my LCD image: (LCD on the LEFT)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=109570.0;attach=161494;image)
If you could apply some sort of 'bloom' effect with the ScanRez2 effect in M.A.M.E., (like you can in AAE) you would probably satisfy a lot of people...
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Sorry Vanilla, but you are not correct.
That Hot-Pink color should not even exist on the car. Nobody in their right mind would make a car with hot pink for a highlight. Obviously you are not an Artist.
The Hot pink was only put on there as a Blend Color. Meaning, when viewed on a low dot pitch arcade monitor, it blended the pink with the surrounding other colors to form a completely different color altogether.
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REDACTED
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"Nobody in their right mind would make a car with hot pink for a highlight" - Xiaou
Except the graphic artists for SEGA at the time, I guess:
(http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade/Cabinet/big/Turbo_-_1981_-_Sega.jpg)
Xiaou - I rest my case: Even the cabinet side art has pink in the car , as racing stripes, so you can suck it. ;D
Time for a cap kit on YOUR Turbo, buddy boy..
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:laugh2:
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You proved your point well but please, for topics sake let's refrain from insults ok? :)
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That :censored: is always writing checks with his mouth that his ass cant cash. He's the one that needs to step it down a notch. I WONT abide him. BTW - Good Post!
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I created this thread for brainstorming purposes so that people get to know the challenges it takes to emulate the CRT monitor traits on shiny LCD screens.
A decade ago, arcade enthusiasts found challenging to run native resolutions on arcade monitors using MAME and other emulators for an instance. Andy Warne developed ArcadeVGA, Andrea Mazzoleni developed Advance MAME and things evolved towards other demands.
I want to believe that there is still a long way to go in order to achieve arcade perfection! :)
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The other complication is that CRT monitors have a "focus" and ideally you'd adjust it so you get a slight blending of pixels.
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The other complication is that CRT monitors have a "focus" and ideally you'd adjust it so you get a slight blending of pixels.
That would be nice to be able to apply a % of gaussian blur to the pixels as a separate effect layer. This could be done if M.A.M.E. supported off-loading to the video cards 3D chipset, or if there was an api for directX effects that could be implemented. The blur AND the bloom would be trivial, I gotta believe.
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The graphics on the Outside of a cabinet are never an indication of the graphics in game.
A lot of cabinets had Neon colors on the outside to draw attention to them. (and or to glow in blacklight)
The in-game graphics are completely different.
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I would be godsmack if the next ArcadeVGA could emulate those traits with proper configuration so that people could tweak them according to their monitor! :)
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That would be nice to be able to apply a % of gaussian blur to the pixels as a separate effect layer. This could be done if M.A.M.E. supported off-loading to the video cards 3D chipset, or if there was an api for directX effects that could be implemented. The blur AND the bloom would be trivial, I gotta believe.
Have you tested ENBSERIES ? (Since mame supports direct3d you could actually do anything with the graphics. Bloom, blur, curved scanlines, spinning cubes and so on...if you know how to program it !?)
A couple of links:
http://www.decemuladores.com/foros/foro-arcade/19644-tutorial-mame-enbseries-excelencia.html (http://www.decemuladores.com/foros/foro-arcade/19644-tutorial-mame-enbseries-excelencia.html) - Translate to whatever
MAME ENBSeries (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9v0I8Aacg0#)
Just remember to follow the instructions ! Very nice combined with scanlines effect ;D
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I'm glad that people are addressing the concerns above discussed but this blur effect it's just too intense. It needs further tweaking i'm afraid...
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have you configured enbseries for mame and tested it yourself? I haven't gotten it to work yet..
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What was shown in the video wasnt so much as blurring. It was a spectrum output change... Similar to increasing the contrast too high.
Notice that the colors meant to be seen got all washed out as they were overpowered by the shift in spectrum to a lighter shade.
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Ok, I have set it up! ;D I was thrown off the path at first, it doesn't seem to work with my 64bit compile of MAME on Windows 7. I downloaded MAME 1.40b, [32 bit], and it worked right off the bat! You need to free up Shift+F12 key combo in mame, it is used by the enbseries effect to toggle off/on. You can set it to be turned on by default by modifying the enbseries.ini file.
Initially the bloom effect was not very interesting, but after tweaking for a bit, I think this shows some real promise! I will post some screen captures of some popular classics,and this will give us something to discuss, I'm sure. There are other effects that are configurable in this library, but I have not tried to get any others to work as of yet....
:notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:THANK YOU ZEROPOINT!!! :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
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What was shown in the video wasnt so much as blurring. It was a spectrum output change... Similar to increasing the contrast too high.
Notice that the colors meant to be seen got all washed out as they were overpowered by the shift in spectrum to a lighter shade.
Once again, talking out your butt.
Bloom is done by taking a snapshot of each rendered frame, then applying a filter to it that removes all but the brightest parts of the image. Which parts of the image remain depends on the threshold set for the filter. Usually you just want whites, or bright yellows to remain (basically anything that is a light source or reflecting bright light should be causing a bloom, so your threshold should be low enough to include the color of flames, or sunlight reflect off things).
Next step once you have this filtered image is you apply a gaussian blur to the whole thing, so you're left with a real fuzzy image that doesn't look like anything other than gradiaded shapes on a black background.
Last step is you apply this image to the original rendered image using an "additive" blending mode (think additive photoshop layer for example) and you have to consider a bit of transparency otherwise the effect will be too strong.
You do this via a pixel shader, which all video cards now support to some degree, so it can be rendered quick for every frame.
*The worst offender of improperly done bloom is Twilight Princess for Gamecube.
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Awesome laymans description Ray. :applaud:
I got some pretty cool results from this technique. I wish I understood more about it, at a lower level, so I could be in more control of how I'm influencing the image...may have to do some book learnin. I'm ultimately looking for more of a 'glow' effect... gotta keep digging.
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I haven't applied that filter, but going off the videos it appears to destroy a lot of the detail in the images. If you could tweak it down quite a bit it might be interesting, but I doubt I could ever get it out of my head that my image is being monkey'ed around with and isn't real.
I just accept that CRT and LCD are different technologies and you can't replicate the image of one on the other. You just have to learn to appreciate the benefits of each.
I love the warmth, the glow, the vividness of a good CRT. It will always be my first choice for gaming.
However, an LCD monitor has perfect geometry, and razor sharp focus. Sometimes I just want to be assured that a square is square. :lol
As far as Turbo goes I've connected it to a variety of 15khz capable monitors and it's always had the hot pink color on that car. Yes, even on a dot trio screen.
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I haven't applied that filter, but going off the videos it appears to destroy a lot of the detail in the images. If you could tweak it down quite a bit it might be interesting, but I doubt I could ever get it out of my head that my image is being monkey'ed around with and isn't real.
I just accept that CRT and LCD are different technologies and you can't replicate the image of one on the other. You just have to learn to appreciate the benefits of each.
I love the warmth, the glow, the vividness of a good CRT. It will always be my first choice for gaming.
However, an LCD monitor has perfect geometry, and razor sharp focus. Sometimes I just want to be assured that a square is square. :lol
As far as Turbo goes I've connected it to a variety of 15khz capable monitors and it's always had the hot pink color on that car. Yes, even on a dot trio screen.
I'm starting to draw the same conclusions... :)
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As much fun as these discussions were a few years ago (the Belligerant KoolAid Man provided us with hours of fun), the point of "CRT monitor obsolescence" really is becoming moot.
Authentic arcade CRTs are, by far, the best way to experience the classics, but the supply is growing very, very short and, at this point, is best left to real restorations.
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Old MAME has a 'cubic - gaussian kernal' filter in D3D. It doesn't seem to look any different than the default 'bilinear'. Setting the prescale to 'none' gives it the natural blur (images 1 and 2). I tend to prefer prescale at 2 (image 3), and brightness at 1.15 regardless of prescale setting. (Image 4 has both.)
Current MAME with Scanrez2, prescale at 2 looks great (image 4).
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DK scanlines should be vertical, btw.
Weird. I swear they were horizontal earlier. (Hmmm, that edit time is suspicious...) ;D
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Are you referring to those screenshots? They look vertical to me? :dunno In any case, the prescale=2 does help retain more blockiness, if thats what you're after.
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I don't understand what's being discussed here, but this reply was awesome:
"Nobody in their right mind would make a car with hot pink for a highlight" - Xiaou
...
Except the graphic artists for SEGA at the time, I guess:
:)
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Gray_Area, all those screen shots looked the same to me, except this last one, which can't be right, since no video game artist in his right mind would use hot pink for girders:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=109570.0;attach=161764;image)
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And Ray wins the thread. :gobama :gobama :gobama
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Gray_Area, all those screen shots looked the same to me, except this last one, which can't be right, since no video game artist in his right mind would use hot pink for girders:
Hah. Yeah. The first two don't look different. The third one is more defined. The fourth one is the same settings, plus a little brighter.
@GinsuVictim: the global settings were for horizontal lines. I noticed just after I made the post, and then scrambled to correct it.