The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Arcade Collecting => Pinball => Topic started by: JeepMonkey on July 08, 2009, 01:56:37 pm
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There has been a thread over at RGP for a while now about making a limited production run of new Lord Of the Rings machines.
LOTR (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/23a9a43fc52d1713/0b943779b56e6546?lnk=gst&q=kansas+city#0b943779b56e6546) Look at the post near the bottom of the past page by Pinball jack for the details.
Anticipated price is $5000, with 300 available. You can hold a machine for a $100 refundable desposit. I put in for one a couple months ago. Man, I just don't know if I want to pull the trigger. I figure if I am ever going to get a NIB pin, why not make it this one.
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the link is wrong
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Fixed, thanks for the heads up.
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It's overpriced, but I have my preorder in! :D
The reason for the cost is pretty clear. First of all, it's a small run and they had to pay for the license again. This is pretty understandable to me. I know they're trying to put some extra touches on the machine to make up for the extra price like a mirrored backglass (not going to be a cheap translite), some autographs, a plaque, and some Limited Edition flair to the art.
All those things are kinda neat, but the real bonus is getting the game NIB. This is almost certainly the final run of the game and it's being limited to just 300 machines. I figure that those machines will be gone in the blink of an eye and suddenly many (like myself) are going to wish that they'd skipped a summer vacation and just bit the bullet. I know I'm paying a pretty high premium, but it's going to be worth it for me.
Also, should I ever choose to unload this, I think it will hold its value just fine. I hope not to ever want to part with it though.
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I really would like to try a real LOTR! I tried it in pinmame, and was not even remotely impressed.
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The only way it's remotely interesting in pinmame is if you're trying to get to Valinor the whole time. This game doesn't play all that well through emulation so you have to treat it more like a video game than a pin.
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If you've got the spare $$$ for it go for it! NIB LOTR will be awesome and a great NIB game to get. (with the optimal word of it being SPARE $$$)
Having said that, personally, (which I did myself) is I would hunt down a nice HUO one (which should start to show up more and more as the release gets closer for the special edition) and get that instead.
It will be about $1500 less... and if you think about it..is having no figures, a special backglass and plaque worth the extra $1500?......To me no.
Only 'real' justification for the $5k price would be to have the LOTR in pristine unflawed condition.... but only if you have no budget whatsoever....
But whoever decides to get one...props to them... no matter what they will enjoy it (as long as they don't have to sleep in the cardbpard box it was shipped in!)
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I really would like to try a real LOTR! I tried it in pinmame, and was not even remotely impressed.
I have only played one, but it was HUO, so it was 100% working. I don't know that I'd call it the "best DMD game ever" but it is a pretty good game.
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A used Midevil Madness might be worth $5000... But certainly not a LOTR.
Rather buy 2 used williams gems over that new pin any day of the week.
Best DMD... come on. Maybe the best for a Stern... but thats not saying a lot Imop.
Stern should just give up, buy out all the williams designs... and sell NIB william
remakes. (maybe with some added bonus tweaks here and there... such as more
character tracks, enhanced rules..etc)
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I'm surprised it took that long for the Stern bashing to start. Give me a break....
People slam Stern but by most accounts they've put out several games that are starting to stand the test of time and some that are held in very high regard. Some call LOTR best game ever (it has a rabid following on RGP), others are saying Spider-Man is easily a top 20 game of all time, most agree that TSPP is a top 20 game as well, and stuff like 24, CSI, and Shrek/Family Guy are great in their own right.
On IPDB.org Stern has 3 top 20 games (LOTR, SM, TSPP).
On Pinside.com Stern has 4 top 20 games (LOTR, SM, TSPP, FG).
On Treasure-Cove.net Stern has 4 top 20 games (LOTR, SM, TSPP, FG)
Stern makes great games, but too many people are so quick to turn up their noses that they hardly notice. Yes, Stern has put out some duds or some games with good gameplay but a bad license, but Bally/Williams did the same thing. Bag on licenses like CSI all you want, but is The Shadow any better? Not really, but both are great PLAYING games.
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I have seriously considered buying a nice HUO LOTR as there should be a couple floating around once the new ones are coming out. I have been looking for a LOTR here in the Kansas City area (say within five hours), but they just don't appear to be around.
If I could choose between a good condition TOM and STTNG or a new LOTR shipped, I would probably go with the former.
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Stern should just give up, buy out all the williams designs... and sell NIB william
remakes. (maybe with some added bonus tweaks here and there... such as more
character tracks, enhanced rules..etc)
Dude, you are talking out of your nether region. You DO realize that most, if not all, Stern games are designed by the SAME people who made all of those classics you so highly covet. There is near zero market for pins, plain and simple. Stern doesn't have the tooling to make the tables you speak of. The only thing they would have going for them is the original design on paper, which is a small fraction of the actual cost of production.
The only knock on Stern is that their product quality is less than desired, and that really isn't their fault.
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The only knock on Stern is that their product quality is less than desired, and that really isn't their fault.
I'm not a Stern hater but they choose some seriously stupid licenses sometimes. I'm waiting for something like Kohler or Oodles of Noodles to be announced.
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I think their licenses are odd choices too. Big Buck Hunter is coming out next and I have ZERO interest in that license as a pinball. Here are some licenses that would probably do well for Stern:
- Harry Potter (seriously, could be the next Addams Family)
- Ghostbusters (time has kinda passed, but our generation would eat it up)
- Super Mario Bros. (Gottlieb game still sought after, Nintendo is on top again)
- Pixar (have different sections of the playfield for different movies)
- LOST (I'm not big on TV themes, but this has to be better than CSI or 24)
- X-Men (duh!)
I would prefer original themes to licenses, but if you're going to go with a license, make it a GOOD one. Stern's best licenses have been Lord of the Rings, The Simpsons, Spider-Man, Indiana Jones, and The Dark Knight. You have to choose more iconic characters/themes rather than what's hot at the moment. Big Buck Hunter? Really?!
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My advise is not to get caught up in the hype.
You are paying $1500 more for the LE and all it gives you is a real Backglass. Plus it removes the action figures from the game. Not worth it in my opinion. If you want a LOTR then find a nice HUO game.
I had a NIB LOTR and sold it about a year later for $3800. I got tired of endless multiballs and games of 30 to 40 minutes. I do believe this is a great game and is a complete package.
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I think their licenses are odd choices too.
I still think they've gotten paid or done profit sharing agreements or subsidized risk or SOMETHING for some of those themes.
All of your theme suggestions were terrible, btw, not that mine would be any better.
Well, I think they'd be successful, I don't particularly want any of them. Okay, so I'd like Ghostbusters, but I do think the rest would have more of a draw than a few of their other recent licenses.
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I have seriously considered buying a nice HUO LOTR as there should be a couple floating around once the new ones are coming out. I have been looking for a LOTR here in the Kansas City area (say within five hours), but they just don't appear to be around.
If I could choose between a good condition TOM and STTNG or a new LOTR shipped, I would probably go with the former.
Good luck on the hunt JeepMonkey! Keep at it and you'll find one...post on rgp for ones in your area if your ready to pull the trigger and see what turns up!
Took a little bit to figure out what I was doing when I first got it, but once you know what's going on and what you want to do (just like any other pin) you will be hooked! Great Game for the home!
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The only knock on Stern is that their product quality is less than desired, and that really isn't their fault.
I just really hate how the playfield lift ups (at least with lotr)...scary scary...too much room for error of scratching the inside cab or it coming down funny and messing up the side rails. Really awkard lifting the playfield if you are used to wms.
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Let's put it this way - if I had $5000+ to put down on one pin, I would probably take a fully restored pin from Treasure Cove over any NIB Stern.
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Let's put it this way - if I had $5000+ to put down on one pin, I would probably take a fully restored pin from Treasure Cove over any NIB Stern.
Why?
Man, Sterns are built cheap, no doubt, but aren't you a little sick of watching the same 15 year old animations, listening to the same voice calls, and enduring the lame 'humor'? I mean, c'mon, we're almost to 2010, I really don't want some boat anchor theme like Demolition Man in my gameroom.
I shudder to think of what the newest Sterns are like under the hood... where Gottlieb System 3s would have 5 or 6 screws, Williams would have 3, and Data East would have 2. Can't even imagine how much costs could be cut tighter.
My actual play time with those 'boring 15 year old games' is quite limited. I had never even seen an addam's family pin until around 2.5 years ago. Still never seen a TZ in the flesh. I've played a bunch of them in pinmame, but have only played a tiny amount of real pins from the '88-'96 era. Ever since I was a small kid, seeing a real pinball machine was a pretty rare and awesome event.
I asked my coworker, who is 22, about his arcade/pin interactions. He was only in an arcade once as a kid. Only recalls seeing ONE pin his whole childhood.
My point - I can't think of a single pin from the early 90's era that I could claim I am bored of.
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[I really don't want some boat anchor theme like Demolition Man in my gameroom.
I like my Demolition Man pinball. Its a good playing machine and the blue led's look awesome when the lights are dimmed down a bit.....or for that matter even when they're not. There are certainly worse themes out there.
Regarding the topic on hand, man I love coin-op goodness - pinball included - but dropping that much jack on a pinball machine just seems outrageous to me unless you are very well off. If I had tons of money I wouldnt bat an eye at dropping $5K on something I enjoy but I'm going to go out on a limb here and say most of us on here, while not poor or even struggling, would have to think long and hard before committing that much money to one pinball machine.
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You DO realize that most, if not all, Stern games are designed by the SAME people who made all of those classics you so highly covet.
Sure I do. However, these guys are being forced to turn out Crap.
Read up on the recent Steve Ritchie rant. Not that it wasnt obvious from
the start. The fault is mostly all with Stern himself.
There is near zero market for pins, plain and simple.
Thats not really true at all. There are plenty of collectors and
well off people willing to buy good pins. In fact, interest in pins
has been climbing steadily... as the worlds population has also been
climbing.
Stern doesn't have the tooling to make the tables you speak of.
The tooling can be reclaimed or remade as needed. See: Tron Handles.
The only thing they would have going for them is the original design on paper, which is a small fraction of the actual cost of production.
As far as I see it... it costs far more to make an original machine than
to remake a pin that has existing specs. There are few to no unseen pitfalls... no endless hours of whitewood development and testings. No
need for artwork photoshopping designs. No unknown failures
from poor mechanical placement/design. And no resulting
outright bombs - such as Ripleys.
Stern has made quite a few pins that Nobody has any real interest in.
Instead of being able to run or re-run several lots of the same games
to recoop investments... they have lost huge sums because of their
poor design practices and bad theme choices.
Making known Great classics in Pristine condition would excite the collectors and create a demand for many new orders. Adding some
tweaks in there as a bonus... would further drive desire and thus
sales up.
Stern can not seem to let up on directing his limited creative staff, or cutting the budget to the very minimum it can go...so this may be the only adequate and realistic option for them.
Stern is like Paul Sr. from American Choppers. He wants things fast,
and has no taste or artistic understanding (everything looks good to
him). It was Paul JR. that had all the Talent in making that place known worldwide. If SR. had forced JR. to cut every corner, to rush his designs, to put on parts and features that SR wanted instead... then AC would barely be known past their own state... let alone have a tv show.
Quality and Artistic integrity sells. Selling cheap crap will barely make
ends meet. Sure, there are a lot of 'Taste-Less' people out there... But,
there are many more who actually have an artistic taste... who can not
stomach the atrocities that Stern lets loose.
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The only Stern themes that I don't care for are WOF, Ripley's, and Elvis. The others may not turn out to be the best players, but I wouldn't turn down any other Sterns just because of theme.
I also think that an X-Men theme has great potential. There may be a probelm as Stern has recently done two comic book movie pins in Spiderman and Batman.
Does anyone see a Terminator 4 pin being made? I guess it is a little late for that.
I am a little bit surprised there wasn't a machine themed after the new Star Trek movie given the popularity of the STTNG machine.
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Xiaou2,
The thing you're forgetting is that if Stern decided to run a popular game from teh past that they're already trying to sell a machine that has thousands already in the hands of collectors and operators. There were over 20,000 Addams Family machines sold, they're not going to be able to sell another 5,000. Also, in order to re-tool to make these machines it would basically run them into debt faster than a flop based on a machine where they use their own current resources.
To make money on something like a Medieval Madness run, they'd need to sell way more than they'd be capable of doing or they'd need to charge a big premium for the machine.
And no, interest in pinball isn't on the rise. The distribution network is in shambles and getting worse. Some states don't even have the ability to bring a Stern machine in, and it's not Stern's fault. For pinball to stick around, Stern has to be very conservative.
I like to give the guy a break, because he's literally living from machine to machine. He might be able to absorb one or two flops between mild hits, so safer licenses are what he needs to focus on. Margins are already razor thin, and raising prices would only kill the ability to put pins out there even more. Stern himself said that the private market is incapable of keeping pinball alive.
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They may have made 20,000 Addams Familys but I'm willing to bet more than half of them are gone now. Addams and TZ are supposed to have monster quantities out there and yet they're both no more common on the used market than anything else.
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Quality and Artistic integrity sells. Selling cheap crap will barely make
ends meet. Sure, there are a lot of 'Taste-Less' people out there... But,
there are many more who actually have an artistic taste... who can not
stomach the atrocities that Stern lets loose.
Dude...you realize Wal-Mart is taking over the world right? I realize you don't live in the U.S., but c'mon! Get in the real world.
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Remaking classics has never been a success and it's been done several times (Fireball, Pin-Bot...)
I don't know that I buy that and I've heard it several times. "Success" is relative to the market expectations at production and cost to produce. Sure, the followup Fireballs didn't sell as many as the original, but they were sold under different market conditions and with a dramatically lower production cost. If development cost is cut in half for a remake then raw sales numbers don't have to be nearly as high as the original game in order to be considered a success. Now, if people are talking creatively, that's a different animal. It always "Fireball Classic sold half what the original did thus it failed" that people base it on and I just don't see that as a point that holds up to scrutiny.
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Remaking classics and reproducing classics are 2 different entities. What is being discussed here is making exact replica's of the original machines.
Besides, doesn't Gene Cunningham own pretty much everything from William's pinball?
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Remaking classics and reproducing classics are 2 different entities. What is being discussed here is making exact replica's of the original machines.
Besides, doesn't Gene Cunningham own pretty much everything from William's pinball?
I actually just recently listened to the topcast interview of him. It didn't sound like even he had a 100% picture of what he owns but it was clear that Williams sold the rights to everything piecemeal between him and Wayne in Australia. The split sounds such that neither one of them can reproduce most of the machines without licensing from the other. That also rules out any game with a licensed theme unless they pay for that too.
There was some talk recently that he sold a lot of that stuff to a different party in Australia but I didn't follow closely enough to know if it was just inventory or if he shipped off any rights with it.
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That sale report was pretty overblown by Wayne. One thing everybody should know and understand is that Wayne is a thief, a liar, and a HUGE hypocrite. He fights to get eBay auctions shut down when people are selling custom parts for WMS/Bally games, but then he goes ahead and sells multigames with 48-1 boards in them. He's a jerk and totally unprofessional. Over the past few days he's been spreading rumors that Stern is going down real soon and that they haven't produced anything for a while and that they don't have anything in the pipeline. What a lying jerk.
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Xiaou2,
The thing you're forgetting is that if Stern decided to run a popular game from teh past that they're already trying to sell a machine that has thousands already in the hands of collectors and operators. There were over 20,000 Addams Family machines sold, they're not going to be able to sell another 5,000.
I do not think you really understand pinball. Many pins have been completely destroyed
and parted out by now... because people didnt want to take the time and effort to
restore them.
We have Missing or dead pcbs, acid damages, floods ,lightning strikes/surges, fires, hurricanes, tipped over / sunken container ships, freight transport damages,
vandalism, and pins sitting in some grampas house - or a warehouse/barn collecting dust..
rotting, rusting, and warping.
ALSO, remember that the number of pins were sold in numbers relative to the arcades.
The numbers of arcades + the number of pins were not extremely high compared to the
number of arcade players.
And, given that the number of players kept growing... and multiplying offspring like
rabbits... that difference becomes even greater.
The kids who passed through the arcades never thought it would be possible to
own a real arcade machine or pin. However, as the arcades started to die off, and the
kids were adults... things changed significantly. Us kids are willing to invest a good
chunk of change in a great machine.
And that is not counting the wealth people out there. Where I live, there is a group
of guys here that own entire basements filled with pins. Some make ok or good money... while others are merely obsessed.
Now, lets not forget that Ops still are in the game. And, putting a Medievil Madness
out on location will still do very well. In fact, my buddy had to beg high and low to try
to pursuade/pay any ops from taking a game off-route so he could buy it.
The story is still the same. The games will still make enough sales to remain on route
for some time... and then can be resold to collectors. There are of course also a ton
of collectors who will sell off their current machines for brand spankin new machines...
just because. And Imop, there will still be more than enough demand for a boatload
of MM's.
You could make enough to sell them from now till the year 3030.. and they would sell.
(unless someone made some even more advance and fun pins) (Population continues
to grow... and new gens who previously didnt have the money now Do have it, and will
want to spend it on a great machine)
But a pile of dog poo like Ripleys? All that did was further sour the ties with Ops.
And only the stupidest or most sympathetic of collectors bought them. I know some
collectors buying sterns... not because they like them... but because they were trying
to keep pinball from a complete death.
This way of being isnt going to keep working. Its not working as it stands.
( Btw - They probably could also get a deal with places like Museums. The games may
be remakes... but they are historical designs / machines. )
Also, in order to re-tool to make these machines it would basically run them into debt faster than a flop based on a machine where they use their own current resources.
That makes no logical sense at all. What cost more? To have a plastic injection mold
from the past be re-used (many companies who have made them never toss them out),
OR... to have all new molds made?! FYI - AFAIK, Its like $10,000 for a detailed plastic
injected mold to be made.
That does not even count things like the ball assemblies. Every assembly that is
new has to be completely engineered from the ground up. Such engineers are not
cheap... and the stuff takes a ton of time and testing to finalize each new part.
A simple assembly can easily take thousands of dollars to finalize.
Remaking a known working / tested assembly? Maybe 1/50th the cost and time.
Stern has some choices... 1) Keep making crap, and all orders will dry up eventually.
2) Make cheaper crap - like zizzle and pray its cheap enough and enough desire to own.
3) Make Quality pins that people would Love to play and own.
4) Sell parts and 'easy to work software' - for "Build you own pinball kits"
5) Repo and distribute parts only.
Really man... its one thing to try to sell a poorly done painting for a few dollars. But
quite another to try to sell that same painting at the Thousands of dollar level. You really
cant sell "crap" at that price point. And that is basically what they are doing.
To make money on something like a Medieval Madness run, they'd need to sell way more than they'd be capable of doing or they'd need to charge a big premium for the machine.
There is no real limit to the number of machines one could build. They simply would have
to be able to produce more pins within the set time lot in order to cover the bills of the
employees & facilities/electric...etc. If they had to, they could simply hire more people,
and run the shop in multiple shifts. (non-stop flow)
If they can produce and sell a game like WOF, then they can afford to sell a
Really great game like MM. WOF isnt going to be getting multiple lots like
LOTR and Simpsons did... which are what saved them from being completely buried.
And no, interest in pinball isn't on the rise.
Wrong. As said before, there are plenty like myself who has gotten older and
scrapped enough cash to get a dream machine. Which once you have one... that
then multiplies.
I know a local woman who went from zero machines about 2 yrs ago... and now has
bought 4. She is already looking at another.
The video pinball emulations have also sparked a great interest. Video game players
who may have skipped out of pinball before.. have found digital machines that they
find intriguing... and want to play and own a real machine.
Auctions and game shows are popping up left and right.. and the interest is
climbing. The internet has helped to fuel the passion, and to spread the word. Other
video pinball games for pc, and consoles... and heck... even the cheesy windows
xp pinball game have created interests.
And what do you think the kids of the parents who own pinballs are gona want
when they get older? Their own pinball collections.
Btw - have you even noticed the number of video pins that have been created by
users for visual pinball as well as "Future Pinball" ?
The distribution network is in shambles and getting worse. Some states don't even have the ability to bring a Stern machine in, and it's not Stern's fault. For pinball to stick around, Stern has to be very conservative.
This is the worst idealism. The whole reasons arcades went byebye...is because
they stopped originality, quality, and reduced the gameplay to crap. So what do they
do??? They keep making the same level crap... expecting things to get better.
Stern will NOT get better when they output crap. They will have a chance if they
put out GOOD machines. There is Tons and Tons of proof in this.
I like to give the guy a break, because he's literally living from machine to machine. He might be able to absorb one or two flops between mild hits, so safer licenses are what he needs to focus on. Margins are already razor thin, and raising prices would only kill the ability to put pins out there even more. Stern himself said that the private market is incapable of keeping pinball alive.
I dont give Stern a break, because he is the one who is ruining it with poor choices.
Steve Ritchie tried to tell him the the collectors on the newsgroups were getting
fed up with the crap... and what does Stern say??? He asks Steve if there is any way
they can delete the messages!!! He had No clue at all about the collectors... and didnt
care one bit about them.
Stern does not realize how many collectors and new home pin buyers are the ones
who have really been keeping Sterns doors from closing.
And yet, that isnt going to keep happening anymore. Not with crappy themes,
poor gameplay, bad sound quality, poor artwork, every corner cut,
and cheap easily breaking assemblies.
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Wikipedia:
High Speed's bill of materials was higher than other games, and some rival Williams designers nicknamed it "High Cost". The cost increase was minimal, and the game sold 17,080 units. It was the major title that revitalized the entire pinball market.
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You're oversimplifying things. First of all, Stern's factory is set to produce Stern parts, not Williams or Bally parts. To get the correct molds, presses, tooling, and such would cost a lot and it would take several success to offset the cost.
Secondly, and more importantly, Stern and his employees LIKE producing original content. They don't want to become the equivalent of a copy machine. They like what they produce and they feel that they do a good job doing it.
Someone in Australia is already trying to reproduce Bally and Williams machines and it hasn't been going well. He thought he had the funds, he thought he had the resources, and he's still not put out a single machine.
Stern has its place in the industry, and they don't need to be anything but what they are. Maybe they can come up with better themes and licenses, but they don't need to get into recreations.
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Stern and his employees LIKE producing original content.
First off, Stern "HIMSELF" likes making new content.
The rest are liking the pay and the job. They are paid to like what they
are told to make. That does not mean they actually like the crappy
licenses, the shoddy artwork, and half a** releases.
I myself would be 10x more satisfied putting together a masterpiece
like Medievil Madness, Creature, IJ, TOM, etc.. than any of the Stern
releases.
That said, Id love to see and or make original games. Not crappy half-A**ed
games... but actual good original which match or top Williams best.
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The real problem here is that you're just not able to see that Stern does put out some good stuff. Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, Family Guy/Shrek, and The Simpsons Pinball Party stand up well with the top tier Williams and Bally games. Unless you can see that, this discussion will remain circular though.
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Family Guy relies entirely on the license. Without a 45 year old male niche license that game would be in the same list as Ripley's and WPT. It's not a very good game.
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As usual, you guys are in the minority when it comes to opinion on something... I am shocked!
I'm not saying anybody should be a sheep and just praise TSPP or FG/Shrek just because they're popular, but they are popular for a reason. FG can't just be relying on theme, because Shrek is just as highly regarded and it's just an art swap. I hate Family Guy the show, but the pin is excellent. TSPP is probably one of the deepest games ever made, and given enough time with it, it's pretty mind-blowing just how much is offered in that machine.
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Maybe from a sales standpoint, but definitely not from a player's opinion.
Somewhere along the line with Xiaou2's input and my white knight reaction the argument changed from being about sales to a mix of sales and quality of game. So yeah, basically the thread is a mess.
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I personally would buy one if I got a guarantee the magnetic ring mode would last...the one in my local arcade keeps breaking. I love the pinball though.
Other Stern Titles that I would love to have would be:
Roller Coaster Tycoon
Austin Powers
Spider-Man
I Also was NOT a big fan of FG or Simpsons....themed wonderfully but played like poo.
Kinda OT, but I was really sad to see Monster Bash leave my local arcade....one of my all time favorites.
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Other Stern Titles that I would love to have would be:
Roller Coaster Tycoon
I would really like to play a fully working condition version of that game. Chuck-E-Cheese has one, but it is so horribly broken now that it is 100% unplayable. Back when it had issues but was mostly playable, I grew to like it. Normally I am not a fan of Lawlor's combo shots, but the lower left - to upper right flipper combo was pretty cool. I also liked idea of turning on the rides (ramps) just like in the game. It was a very clever rule set tied into the theme.
Long story short, I would take this one for my gameroom too.
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The real problem here is that you're just not able to see that Stern does put out some good stuff. Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, Family Guy/Shrek, and The Simpsons Pinball Party stand up well with the top tier Williams and Bally games. Unless you can see that, this discussion will remain circular though.
No, they dont. Not even close.
Family guy / Shrek plays horribly, with slow and bad flow. Simpsons isnt too much better... (my first game on the machine was clocking in over 30min... and I left the
machine with a ton of balls left because it was too easy and too boring. Whitewater
has been known to take me out in less than 5 min play, kicking my butt so hard I
actually wanted to play over and over again...) but at least the theme is superior.
Spiderman is a snorefest too, (much worse than Simpsons, and worse theme+art+sounds) and got old in less than 10 min of play. Walked away from that
one too.
LOTR is the only one to show any promise at all... and it falls flat in two areas:
1) The side drains are incredibly cheap even when adjusted to full easy level. They
take the skill away from pinball, and simply rip the player off with no chance in hell for
a save.
2) The Path of the Dead is Useless and a waste of good ball speed, and further gameplay.
Also, They all sound like a 30yr old tv thats been sitting out in the rain. Rather than the crisp details of Williams vastly superior DTS sound system.
None of these titles compare to a game like Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc. Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.
The people who think they enjoy Sterns machines are people that havnt played such
said Titles. (or played broken / beat up machines) Once you have tasted Fillet Minion,
a hamburger just does not satisfy... especially when that hamburg cost the same
as that tender juicy slice of heaven.
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A used Midevil Madness might be worth $5000... But certainly not a LOTR.
Medevil madness- http://www.pinball.com/medieval-remake/medieval-remake.htm
There homepage with other remakes- http://www.pinball.com/
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None of these titles compare to a game like Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc. Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.
You realize you mentioned a Gottlieb game in there right? I just wanted to make since you seem to be exclusively Bally/Williams.
BTW - I've played Medieval Madness and LOTR. I think MM is fun but I have no idea why its considered the holy grail of pinball. Its not any more fun IMO than TOM or TOTAN or even LOTR. So whats the deal with MM anyway? Why the premium on this game?
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A used Midevil Madness might be worth $5000... But certainly not a LOTR.
Medevil madness- http://www.pinball.com/medieval-remake/medieval-remake.htm
There homepage with other remakes- http://www.pinball.com/
That's a scam. Do NOT send Wayne a single penny.
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I absolutely love Medieval Madness. I think it's a very fine game, but I wouldn't pay the asking price for it. If it was in the $3,000-$3,500 range I'd probably already have one, but that game drifts as far north as $8,000 quite often depending on condition. I just can't pay that for a game that's basically a refresh of Attack From Mars (another great game).
For the record, I feel the same way about Monster Bash. It's one of my all time favorites to play, but I'd never pay the asking price on that machine.
And with some more thinking, I might drop my preorder for LOTR. I still feel that it's one of the best pins ever made, but I think I'd rather seek out a nice HUO machine when the limited editions hit and people are flipping their original purchases.
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There is no logical reason whatsoever why Medieval Madness should sell for thousands more than Scared Stiff, Attack from Mars, or other ~1996 williams pins.
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Thank GOD I'm not all that into DMD games, that's all I gotta say. I just don't see how so many of them are 5x better than a good earlier SS game.
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None of these titles compare to a game like Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc. Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.
The people who think they enjoy Sterns machines are people that havnt played such
said Titles. (or played broken / beat up machines) Once you have tasted Fillet Minion,
a hamburger just does not satisfy... especially when that hamburg cost the same
as that tender juicy slice of heaven.
Personally I have played a majority of the above mentioned titles, and though I agree that some are superior, I have a grievance with some of the thought process.
Doesn't Indiana Jones have a similar side play field that the ball slows down on as well, not to mention the sheer chance of the magical target that just happens to line up with the center of the play field, draining balls quite regularly?
As for theme, yeah those titles have wonderful themes, but how can you say that Pirates, LoTR, and even the not so hot ones don't have a great theme/art?
Now I am not one to go apeshiz on who makes a more superior pinball, simply because I don't care who makes it as long as I enjoy it, (I mean my god...my favorite pin is the universal monsters making a band.....good god) but some logic was a bit off to me....
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Xiaou2 is just a blind hater...you're not going to reason with him.
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Xiaou2 is just a blind hater...you're not going to reason with him.
Heh! And Who is taking it Personal and dishing the hate? :P
I dare say I have played far more 'near perfect' machines, and in longer time quantities.
Im less of a hater, and more of a game lover. Not just pins, but vids, electromechanicals,
or any other sort. I have a strong opinion, because I have such a wide base of
experience with them.
Doesn't Indiana Jones have a similar side play field that the ball slows down on as well, not to mention the sheer chance of the magical target that just happens to line up with the center of the play field, draining balls quite regularly?
Actually, Indys center target is a bank of drop targets. Hit one of them, and you can
enter the ball lock behind it. Drains down the center are not very frequent. Maybe the
one you played was not centered properly.
The ball speed on a WMS Indiana is slower than some other WMS games. Its more
like an older EM machine. However... unlike LOTR, Indys ball flow can be nearly
non-stop... going from one shot to the next effortlessly and smoothly. LOTR Stops the
ball completely when it has to pop up to the path of the dead... and them you basically
WATCH the ball come down slowly. A Non-Interactive, huge waste of time.
LOTRs flow path isnt nearly as complex nor smooth as Indys. Where as Indy has both
ramps you can successively combo off of... as well as the full outer loop pathway.
Indys Side-Path is completely different, in that its Interactive. You use the left
and right flippers to tilt the mini playfeild in order to try to collect the lit stones.
The timing can be very challenging, and its a very fun part of the game.
It takes some efforts to merely get access to the "Path of Adventure", and then you
have to try to get up the correct ramp, and then score well on the stones... and then
try over and over before the mode is up.
LOTR - Path of the dead, is Easy to get up into... and its non-interactive. There is
really little incentive or 'joy' ?! when the ball goes down it. In fact, every time the ball
enters that damn popper... it ticked me off... knowing how long it was going to take to
get back to any real action.
As for theme, yeah those titles have wonderful themes, but how can you say that Pirates, LoTR, and even the not so hot ones don't have a great theme/art?
Have you looked even at a pinball playfeild?! Stern uses a really low-resolution ink-jet
style of printing. Its really awful. The colors are Bland, and you can see the Huge dots
clearly that make up the pictures.
Williams used high resolution silk screening, and a hand drawn comic-book like artistry. Stern uses a generic Photoshop edit session for their supposed art. Its completely different. Very lame. Very generic. Very Un-Inspiring.
If you are going to opt to use Photo-Realistic captures.. then they should be in
high resolution... else they look corny as heck. Its bad enough that they use
photographs and poor photoshop edits rather than get REAL ARTISTS to draw
and paint real ART.
Go compare Williams greats, to any of Sterns... and see Sterns Pale in comparison.
Now I am not one to go apeshiz on who makes a more superior pinball, simply because I don't care who makes it as long as I enjoy it, (I mean my god...my favorite pin is the universal monsters making a band.....good god) but some logic was a bit off to me....
Monster Bash - I believe you are speaking off.. and yeah, it was by Williams.
Like most all good pins.
Ohh and yeah, Im fully aware of who makes what pins. I may mention Williams the
most... but there were some great pins by the other manufacturers. However, Ive
yet to play a Stern that I actually enjoy even the slightest compared to the much
older others. In some cases... Id prefer to play an EM over a modern stern.
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It's really simple supply and demand here.
Think of the prices that a lot of the late Bally/Williams titles command. In restored/NIB condition as to be compared with a NIB Stern.
MM's are around $7-8k restored.
Cactus Canyon around $8-9k
Monster Bash $4-5k
AFM $5-6k
There is obviously a demand that outstrips the supply. You could sell brand new MM, AFM, CC all day long at the $5000 it costs for a new Stern. $5000 "player" condition MM's are snapped up quickly. You would destroy the inflated prices of the original machines but that's a good thing if it's an EXACT remake of the original.(No inkjet, photoshop artwork).
I couldn't imagine the BS involved with doing it but if Stern could do it, I do not doubt they could do it profitably.
Tamiya did this with their old R/C cars. They did exact remakes. It killed the values of the originals by about 50%.
BTW, Apparently there were only around 900 Family Guy pins made. They anticipated a lot more demand so they were left with a ton of left over parts. That's what led to the Shrek pin.
Anyway, it's never gonna happen but it sure would be nice.
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The reason those games command so much is because of the 'rareness'. As soon as you pop that balloon you're going to have a tough time selling them for $5k "all day long".
Cactus Canyon is the only pin that falls into the rare category at ~900 units. Medieval madness had almost the exact same production numbers as Scared Stiff and Attack from Mars - around 4000 units. Why is it consistently more expensive then by $2k or more? One of these days I'll get a real answer to that question. Personally, I'm in the camp that MM is inflated in price.
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Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now. I am curious what it will look like
dm
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Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now. I am curious what it will look like
dm
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say:
2 flippers
3 pop bumpers
2 bays of worthless targets to spell "Hobbit" or "Bilbo".
2 ramps
and a whole crap load of 2-d "toys" made of pieces of flat arcrylic with inkjet art on them.
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yep, now i have to have one
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Wouldn't it be funny if I got a C&D letter from a Stern lawyer asking where I got my info? That would be hilarious.
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Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now. I am curious what it will look like
dm
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say:
2 flippers
3 pop bumpers
2 bays of worthless targets to spell "Hobbit" or "Bilbo".
2 ramps
and a whole crap load of 2-d "toys" made of pieces of flat arcrylic with inkjet art on them.
Not sure that's fair...
Stern still partners with most of the good designers to have their designs made. From a pure gameplay perspective, the games are typically pretty solid. I can agree with the inkjet art, but the actual designs aren't bad. They're kind of on a hot streak with Spider-Man, CSI, 24, and NBA. All of them play well and have had some great designers (Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawlor, etc.) involved with their creation.
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They should attempt an original non-licensed title.
Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.
Hard to do without pinball designers though. :D
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Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.
Video mode on Elvis is a DDR clone. Most collectors HATE that video mode.
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Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.
Video mode on Elvis is a DDR clone. Most collectors HATE that video mode.
Yeah, Stern are screwed.
Anything that would make in-roads with a younger newer crowd will be crapped on by "the collectors", and yet catering to just the collectors is barely sustainable as a business.
Bye Stern!
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I think their licenses are odd choices too. Big Buck Hunter is coming out next and I have ZERO interest in that license as a pinball. Here are some licenses that would probably do well for Stern:
...
- Ghostbusters (time has kinda passed, but our generation would eat it up)
I think they should start a Ghostbusters theme now. They can get the game theme and design done early. Finish the artwork when more information about the new Ghostbusters movie comes out. Would be slick if they could actually release the game at the same time the new Ghostbusters movie hits the theaters.
Ed
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What Stern should have lobbied for years ago - a Discovery channel TV show like American Chopper. That is the only thing that could save them at this point.
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I think Stern will go bankrupt before he gives up the business. I'm sure there are lots of other people that could do better than Gary does, but the facts are that he's all that's left. Maybe one day he'll step down and a major shift in philosophy will take place over at Stern and you'll have Steve, Pat, and other greats coming back, but for now I'm just happy that pinball is still alive and that Stern does at least put out some good games.
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Maybe they didn't sell a ton of pins, but they made good games. Family Guy/Shrek, Spider-Man, Lord of the Rings, 24, and CSI all play great. I can't complain about those at all, even if they weren't mainstream hits. Wheel of Fortune is really interesting, but it's severely gimped by unfinished code and a lame theme.
The designers can still design good games, but the marketing and theme choices are not up to snuff these days.
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I don't have a lot of experience with newer pins, but I will say that I played Family Guy ONCE and walked away after 10 minutest of play without sinking a single ball. My plane was boarding. I was super surprised at how easy it was... too easy.