The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Monitor/Video Forum => Topic started by: Necro on April 14, 2011, 11:28:29 am
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Purpose
The purpose of this thread and FAQ is to provide a central location for 'mirror cab' setup related information to assist in archiving the information and providing a reference point for anyone trying to MAME one of these types of cabinets in the future. This is a living FAQ, so new answers and information will be incorporated as things evolve.
Definitions/Terminology
Because of the various uses of certain mirroring/rotation related terms, the following definitions are how each of these terms are used within this FAQ. This FAQ is focused on software and other hardware solutions, with most info only being pertinent for those situations where you can't use a hardware fix to mirror your video out for some reason (e.g., you're using a LED monitor).
- Rotate: Rotate a display without any mirroring.
- Flip: Vertically or horizontally 'flip' a display, resulting in a mirrored display. This is NOT the same as rotate, which can be visualized as pivoting a screen around a central point. This is the equivalent to what you would see if you flipped a screen along an axis across the middle (vertically or horizontally) and were able to see the screen from the back of the monitor.
- Mirror: The same as flip.
Monitors and Hardware
- CRT Monitors: Disregard the rest of this FAQ and yoke flip your monitor. Basic information at the link, and detailed info available via Google. Link (http://www.arcaderestoration.com/index.asp?OPT=3&DATA=147&CBT=24)
- LED Monitors: Unless you have a monitor with the built in capability to flip it's display, you're generally out of luck. Only a very small number of LCD monitors have the wiring to allow for a 'yoke flip' style trick to be used to flip their video display. (Link (http://www.doityourself.com/forum/computers-peripherals/302762-how-reverse-scan-lcd-monitor.html)) To determine if you can, check your manual. If not mentioned there, determine the LCD screen you have in the monitor and attempt to locate a pinout for the screen. Depending on the pinout, you may be able to do the same type of action done for CRT monitors and cross Up/Down or Left/Right wiring, resulting in a flipped image. Note that altering horizontal and vertical sync will NOT accomplish this. This is generally not an option for LCD monitors, however, hence this FAQ.
- Scalers and Converters: Note that there are video scalers and converters (Link (http://www.hallresearch.com/page/SC-VGA-2B)) that can accomplish this flipping on LCDs and CRTs, however they are over >$300 in general for ones that do higher resolutions. Look for things marked for teleprompters and the like if you want to go that route. Note that older ones may be available for ~$50-60, but you should confirm output resolutions/specs match what you need as many are for teleprompters and don't require high resolutions or higher refresh rates.
Emulators
Few emulators support output flipping and some can be 'hacked' in some way to force it. At this time, I am not aware of any other emulators that support a mirroring video output aside from those below.
- MAME: Natively supports flipped/mirrored output. Use the -flipx or -flipy command line commands or set the settings as appropriate in MAME.ini.
- MESS: Natively supports flipped/mirrored output.
- VPinMAME: Natively supports flipped/mirroed output, however this only outputs the dot matrix display so it doesn't mean you can actually play any pinball machines on a mirrored cabinet as of yet - but it will let you mirror your DMD on a video pinball machine
- DAPHNE: Des not support fliped/mirrored output, however it is possible to play 'pure video' games (e.g., Dragon's Lair, Space Ace) by mirroring the video via a reencode, and then altering your control mapping to account for it. You can't have an on-screen scoreboard, but the games play acceptably without them.
Front-Ends
The following front ends support mirroring their video output. Note that using a front end that flips it's video output does NOT make the emulator flip its output. A combination of a flip capable front end and flip capable emulator is required.
- Maximus Arcade: Natively supports horizontal and vertical flipped output. Note that this only flips the front ends graphics - videos, screenshots, etc., will need to be flipped outside the front end before displaying correctly. Flipping works on WinXP and Win7
- GameEx: Natively supports vertical flipping. To accomplish horizontal flipping, rotate the screen 180 degrees and turn on vertical flipping. Flipping works on WinXP and Win7.
- AtomeFE: Natively supports vertical and horizontal flipping. Flipping only works on WinXP at this time.
- MALA: At this time, MALA does NOT support flipping (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=99556.0) - only rotating.
Other Software
A number of other software is commonly proposed as 'solutions' to the mirroring issue. They are listed below, along with what each is/is not capable of.
- NVKeyStone: Nvidia Keystone, designed to correct projector outputs, will mirror output. However, this comes at a huge performance hit, requires WinXP, requires an NVIDIA video card, and does not support GeForce 8 (or above) cards. Link (http://www.nvidia.com/object/feature_nvkeystone.html)
- Ultramon: Newest versions will mirror output. Not certain if it requires two monitors however - also, the highest refresh rate appears to be 30hz (30 updates per second) which was very visible when I tested it on my main computer. Haven't checked on my cab yet.
- iRotate: Rotates only, doesn't flip/mirror output.
- Various 3D Display Software (e.g., Nvidia, etc.): Requires a second monitor to display anything mirrored. (Link (http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=14626)) Potential for a 'fake' second monitor is there, but not sure how to accomplish this. Also, need to confirm it's not possible to setup with two monitors then simply remove one.
Hardware
- AimTrak Lightguns: AimTrak lightguns should work with a mirrored setup with the IR sensors set appropriately on the actual monitor and given the IR reflects correctly off the mirror. Note that the distance to the monitor will be equivalent to the total distance to the actual monitor - so you gain a foot or two with this setup. - Verified, see post below.
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...RESERVED...
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..RESERVED...
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To be added:
Final Burn Alpha v0.2.97.8Monitor Mirrored Vertical Alignment Setting in Config - "If enabled will mirror the aspect ratio settings for vertical games."
Final Burn Alpha Shuffle v2.0.0b: Monitor Mirrored Vertical Alignment Setting in Config - "If enabled will mirror the aspect ratio settings for vertical games."
Calice 0.54: Has a ini setting of videoflip. Need roms to test this however as mame roms (0.142) don't seem to work and it's unclear if this is even needed, speedwise, as the last release is from 2002.
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I think the aimtraks would work fine mounted above the mirror too. No need to attach it to the monitor.
Also wouldn't the wiki be a better place for this?
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Wiki would be, and I'll add it once this gets developed enough - but it's easier/faster to do a post than it is to do a wiki page so...it's here for now. :) Also I was hoping people would have input but...I may, honestly, be the only one semi-active on here (and I was gone for AWHILE) doing a mirror cab.
Regarding the AimTrak - I just want someone to test it and confirm before taking the note away.
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I'm just messing with you. I hate the wiki, post here and maybe get it stickied in the monitor section.
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Ok, bump, I built a mirror cab a few years back and used an Act-Labs gun. It's OK once configured, but fiddly, so I'm looking to move to Aimtrak.
I contacted Aimtrak directly to ask whether it will work in a mirror and it sounds like it might.
The proposed solution is to mount the IR bar "in front" of the mirror - ie the gun doesn't see it reversed. To calibrate, you'd need to point to the opposite corner from where the mouse is flashing for the top-left/top-right. For the calibration point at the bottom-off-centre of the screen, the important thing is that it needs to be to the left, so apparently doesn't need to be an acurate mirrored position.
Here's the response I got:
"It should be possible to calibrate using the method you describe, the off-center at the bottom is not critical, just has to correspond roughly with the left hand side of the LED bar.
What I don’t know is whether Mame reverses the co-ordinates of an absolute mouse when in flip mode though, so I am not sure if it will work in Mame."
Not fully clear on th "absolute mouse" part - can anyone explain?
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Basically, it will just alter where you need to put the bar. What the comment to you about absolute mouse part is what the on screen coordinates are that mame is handling.
So....if your playing MAME normal lets say top left is 0,0 and bottom right is 100,100. The question is, depending on how you mirror it, do those coordinates change so that the top left of the image is always 0,0 or is it the top left of the physical monitor regardless of the image-flipping.
Would need trial and error I think. I know MAME will translate inputs correctly when mirrored, but not sure since this is passing a specific coordinate on screen (or percentage coordinate) to provide input instead of just a left/right/etc. movement.
Let me knwo the results - I was thinking of getting one. Also, how far you need to be from the screen! (and post pics of your cab somehere! )
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Bump from the dead....
Searches lead me to this thread with regards to mirrored cabinets. I quickly learned of mala's lack of X Y flipping for use with a mirror. But for the short game list I was after I got the idea to make a mala layout with reversed graphics for the ui.
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136713.0;attach=305091)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136713.0;attach=305093)
The large game titles are images created and used as "marquee pics". The 2 instruction prompts are just 2 user defined images along with game screen caps. Fire starts game / fire + start2 adds credit / 1 + 2 start exits game.
my project thread: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137949.0.html (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137949.0.html)
Hope this gives someone else an idea or work around in the future.
good day.
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http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Desktops/Q_20878621.html (http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Desktops/Q_20878621.html)
Some guys on this thread say they can do a horizontal flip with the Nvidia mx440. Can anybody confirm or deny that? I'd love to not have to spend $500 on an image flipper for teleprompters! :gobama :P
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Since I'm moving, I'm looking at updating some of my software and it seems this issue STILL exists. In regards to the MX440, I haven't seen anything driver wise that lets you do a screenflip/mirror like is needed for a mirror cab in any up to date software/drivers.
So...as of today...still no real solution to flip video to an LCD monitor.
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I'm trying to do exactly this with a broken virtua cop 2 cab that uses a mirror. Monitor, game board and gun sense PCB are all faulty so i want to replace with an LCD and a PC.
Model 2 emulator doesn't seem to have a mirror mode that I can find.
Can anyone provide a model number of a 32" lcd that has the hv flip option? I know some Samsungs do but neither of the two screens that I have support this in the service menu. Thanks!
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Has anyone figured this out? I've got a custom cabinet with two monitors and BOTH are reflected in mirrors. I'm seeking a solution to flip two monitors as the space invaders was flipped. I want to run more than just mame but rather hyperspin as well as all emus. I really need to do the mirroring thing properly for windows 8.1 OS
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The easiest way would be to use an LCD monitor with the HV flip option in the service menu, like this Samsung: https://youtu.be/Ytc2OIt2lJE?t=217 (https://youtu.be/Ytc2OIt2lJE?t=217)
For something like my virtua cop 2 cab, a 32" widescreen lcd tv fits nicely and can just lie on the existing frame. In a 4:3 screen ratio, this gives a 26" diagonal screen size, which is the same as the original one.
With this option enabled, you could just set the screen up as normal, and then flip it. Might also have to reverse the mouse X axis, but that's not difficult. Using the mirror also has the advantage of increasing the distance between the light gun and the screen, which is good for Aimtrak guns.
Neither of my Samsung LCDs have this option sadly. Although there are apparently other hidden options in the service menu, but you need special IR commands to unlock these. This is possible with a universal remote like a logitech, so I'm going to give that a try.
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I'll try it too - I have two monitors - one Sceptre and the other an asus. perhaps there is some super secret hardware switch that can happen. I had sceptre on the phone before to see if they or I could alter the bios so that it started up (in full on instead of standby) when it detected power. It didn't occur to me their might be some service settings that would do something like a horizontal flip
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Just wanted to bump this back from the grave again and go on record to confirm that "An Aimtrack IR gun DOES work in a mirrored cabinet with MAME, as it would on a normal arcade setup!"
I have a Terminator 2 cabinet that Ive converted to Mame (without destroying or removing ANY of the original cabinet, guns, or PCB's). With your mirrored cabinet open from the back, just put your IR sensor bar on the top of the flat lying CRT monitor (in other words, on the farthest side away from you). Hook up all of your light gun usb's to the PC and then connect your trigger/ground wires to the IR camera board (as ultimarc explains in their OEM module pdf). After that it should work. The IR signal will bounce off of the mirror and straight down into your IR sensor bar below. I didnt have to flip anything in the Aimtrak settings and I didnt have to calibrate it in any flipped way. I installed the IR camera into the tip of my T2 guns and it works perfectly, literally only about 1 foot from the mirror, and another 1 foot down to the 25" TV!
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T2 are positional guns. Why would you convert them to IR. They are analog controllers. I mean cool and all you did it but why when you can literally use them as is?
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Definitely a good & valid question. Youre right, I wouldnt have needed the light gun capability if I wasnt running a lot of Daphne/American Laser Games. Daphne blows when it comes to controller configuration, so the analog pots werent working with any of the laser games, and all of the software that converts analog controls to mouse movement were really lacking when it came to 100% accuracy. So I went with adding the Aimtrak OEM Module. Seemed to be the best solution for my issues after extensive searching and trial and error with Daphne and analog controls.
Also, there are a lot of Mame games that I actually prefer using the analog controls (maybe thats weird, I dunno), so, with this setup, I've got the option for either. :)
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Glad it definitely works on the AimTrak's!
As more time goes on, I'm definitely leaning towards trying to find a better monitor solution than having to limit the software I can use. There are minimal monitors/tv's that can do the flipping needed though. Even a widescreen, as noted, is difficult because it's optimal configuration would be rotated 90 degrees - which would require a different flip than I think most have built in.
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I can also confirm aimtrak works on a mirror cabinet.
I have a Virtau Cop 2 cabinet that i've converted to mame with a mirror converter and a 32" LCD, that fit perfect after taking off the bezel.
I had a lot of trouble setting up the aimtrak calibration with the mirror. You need to bend the leds on the sensor bar up to account for the mirror.
After that you're good to go and setup is easy. I wasted a lot of time on that.
For anyone interested i used a Hall Research Technology SC-VGA-2. I'm not sure what the newer SC-VGA-2B is capable of but the model I have is only capable of 1280x1024.
I find it more than sufficent for the bulk of what i'm playing. Particularly with the added depth (distance to screen) that the mirror provides.
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And...I just got an SC-VGA-2 as well. Or...bought one on ebay. This will make using/updating/futzing with the cab 100x easier.... :)
...and always confirm your resolution before buying hardware. My monitor is 1600x1200 so it's looking a bit fuzzy using the SC-VGA-2...to the point of I may not use it unless I find something really compelling (or I rebuild the computer, which is getting close and closer).