The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Project Announcements => Topic started by: Keroppi on November 04, 2019, 07:10:19 pm
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Hey guys, I will have lots of extra free time to finish all of my projects (and possibly make some cash on the side).
This will be a minor build log (two, actually...may end up selling one or both of these. One will be built most likely for myself, one that will likely be offered for sale)
Looking for opinions and inspiration on what to do for a unique build with specific constraints. What we are starting with today is: (2) 46" multitouch tables, the Promethean ActivTable:
(https://www.futurevisuals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/ActivTable.png)
(http://www.empoweredlearning.com/images/activtable-spec-4.JPG)
A reasonably modern looking (but simple and utilitarian looking) table originally sold for the educational market (my kids love it) with: a 46" 1080p screen, an m-itx with an i3-3120, 4gb ram, and a GT720 vid card.
It already has half of what I need for a pinball build done, but creates unique constraints for the rest. This "assembly video" shows the underside of the table, and gives a good idea of what I have to work with, including the height, how much room I have in the table edges, current controls, etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NprHgo0T1I8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NprHgo0T1I8)
Project goals:
- Quality, but cost sensitive - no crazy expensive custom solutions to anything, try to use what I have on hand if possible
- Maintain the basic aesthetic and not make this look like a frankenstein
- Finish with something that wouldn't look out of place in a living room
I actively want input on all points of this project, good, bad or otherwise.
One of the things I definitely will be doing: covering the dark grey border on the topside:
(https://cdn1.npcdn.net/image/1415326996a7c1bbc18779d29d7ab3e7ec1196d60f.jpg?md5id=08283f2d7262ce7c4b9e38cff7905e7c&new_width=1000&new_height=1000&w=1466647023)
...I don't hate the 2 tone grey (keeps it neutral) but there are a couple of issues with it: a) It's got obnoxious logos on it and b) it's covered in that "soft-touch" rubberized coating. Anyone who has had electronics or devices with this coating can attest to the "stickyness" that always eventually develops after years when the chemicals in the coating break down. It's fine now, but if I need to sell this for some real coinage later, I need to make sure it *stays* nice. I am thinking black leatherette. It keeps it somewhat neutral and timeless (and I already have it on hand) Thoughts?
That brings us to the rest of the aesthetic. Not sure if I should paint anything else. the finish is nice (probably powder-coated) and I want to keep it as neutral as possible, which leaves the only real option going all black, which I am not really a fan of. The orange edging details provide nice contrast, but bright orange details are guaranteed not everybody's cup of tea. Don't know if I should hide them or leave it well enough alone.
Height: you can see in the video, it's nearly cocktail table height. More like "end table" height. Perfect for small kids standing up, but adults will be sitting regardless. I am highly debating chopping the legs and bringing it down to "coffee table" height. I have tested the ergonomics using my current coffee table and it doesn't seem like it will be that bad.
Electronics:
Luckily it has standard pc equipment stuffed into it. However, I don't think it'll be strong enough. I plan to upgrade it to an i5/i7 3000 series (3570/3770, etc), 16gb, and I can just barely squeeze a dual slot graphics card into it, so I am thinking gtx 1050/ti/1060ish. Again, cost being an issue, I'd like input on the minimum I can reasonably get by with, specifically the graphics card. If a 1050 can do 4xSSA on 1080p I'll skip maxing out the graphics.
Pinball:
This is where I really need help with you guy's creativity. For the (super slim) "backbox" I am envisioning the entire panel on sliders mounted underneath the table that can slide out and then fold up with a discreet locking mechanism. Something kind of like a "reverse" rackmount kvm console with the hinge on the opposite side:
(https://sgcdn.startech.com/005329/media/products/gallery_large/RKCONS1908K.B.jpg)
I have 21.5" TOTAL space between the legs on the short end. So I can do a full custom panel with ~22"/14" dmd monitor (like this one):
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Wrmgd0SML._SX355_.jpg)
...but this will definitely require a ton of work. My woodworking skills are mediocre at best. I have a router, but I've never used it (too scared to w/o some training). I also have to accept that this is not going to look anything like a real pinball machine no matter what, so I also question if I should even try. What I do have on hand is a number of HP ZR30w 30" lcds:
(https://gzhls.at/i/10/29/541029-n4.jpg)
...they are beefy af but the black and silver case would match aesthetically and I could maybe inexpensively rig up something using sliders and a monitor arm. One of these in portrait is 17.5" wide, and will give me enough room for both screens. Any masking or anything I want to do I could literally just attach straight to the front of the screen. I did however want to use a Kinect for BAM, and if I go this route, there'd be no hiding it.
I have 2.5"-3" interior most of the way around the unit in the framing, so I should have just enough room for a full set of DOF contactors. Other toys like shakers and such are obviously out of the question.
For buttons, I want discreet, in order to keep aesthetic. Flipper buttons are unavoidable; I'd like a "lockdown bar" fire button but even black on black, it might be too much of an eyesore. I'd like any input on which buttons are absolutely necessary and recommendations on good small buttons that I can stash on the underside in the space allotted. I will also have to forego any type of plunger unless you guys know of some tiny psuedo-plunger that would be worth doing with only a few inches of depth?
Video games:
Here is really where I am on the fence, and I'd really love some input/ideas. I really would like to add some controls to this unit, but they would have to be some kind of fold under hide-able contraption or they would need to be removable with attachment points that don't destroy the looks of the table. I could build 2 modules, with an attachment point of either end and 2 on one side, so 2 controller sets would work for cocktail or horizontal games. I'd really like something that looks like it "belongs" on the unit, but cost and my skills are a factor here as well. Another (probably more realistic) option is just get some good looking fight sticks that fit the aesthetic of the table and figure out a good way to hinge and/or attach them. At a cursory glance, there should be options that at least somewhat match the look, like the N30 arcade stick:
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSnVhFpS9JGl7NT4jS2jymRZFhNzvGYK0xpdUOeDzY96bpdslp&s)
Well, that's where I am starting, please let me know what you think.
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Sell that thing. Build the cab you want from scratch.
Using that table will be nothing but compromise, pain, anger, and ultimately failure.
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If you want honesty, a complete waste of time and a wasted project to be honest.
1) Touchscreeen is a pain in the backside for long term use, and I have three touch screen monitors one of which is a 30 odd inch monitor, which I have on my wall using as a jukebox. The other is a 20 inch which originally I was going to turn into a jukebox, but I wanted big. I started using the 20 inch but when you have it at desk height, and you try and use it too much, it causes more RSI than using a keyboard and mouse.
I also have another touch screen in a unit that was brought ages ago, which was going to be turned into an arcade machine, but I will use it now for a quiz machine.
2) A direct touch tv table and no glass to protect the screen? A big ouch, if I had something like this, I would also want to use it as a coffee table, you just cannot do it with this.
3) The thing itself is just too small, you would have to be sitting on a couch just to use it, and even then you would have to keep moving forwards to view the screen.
4) If these tables were a money making idea, we would have them as standard in our homes by now, but we do not. If you took this on shark tank or dragons den you would here a lot of I'm out.
5) I would re purpose these and turn them into jukebox's that is where the money would be, especially with a decent software.
The tables will be a very hard sell, and not worth your time.
*** Pinball ***
Go big or go home, I am rubbish at woodwork, but if you look at it logically, a pinball table is pretty much two boxes, one which resembles a coffin and the other that sits on top, you can call that the tomb stone.
The hardest thing is to get it accurate as possible, the inner workings are a lot harder than I had imagined, all the solenoids, flippers, coin inserts etc, makes it a lot harder than an arcade cabinet, but the wood working is easier.
Every home needs a pinball cabinet, none need a touch screen table that you cannot even use as a coffee table.
Regards
Mark
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Thanks Mark. I do want the opinions, good or bad.
1) Touchscreeen is a pain in the backside for long term use, and I have three touch screen monitors one of which is a 30 odd inch monitor, which I have on my wall using as a jukebox. The other is a 20 inch which originally I was going to turn into a jukebox, but I wanted big. I started using the 20 inch but when you have it at desk height, and you try and use it too much, it causes more RSI than using a keyboard and mouse.
This is is not my first touchscreen, nor touchscreen coffee table for that matter. I also have touchscreen jukeboxes. The touchscreens lend themselves to certain applications. I'd imagine RSI if you tried to use this as your desktop. For Fruit Ninja, not so much.
2) A direct touch tv table and no glass to protect the screen? A big ouch, if I had something like this, I would also want to use it as a coffee table, you just cannot do it with this.
You *absolutely* can use this as a coffee table. It is designed for children. It HAS a glass top. Toughened safety glass at that. Spill resistant also, just like my current Microsoft Surface (Samsung SUR40) coffee table.
3) The thing itself is just too small, you would have to be sitting on a couch just to use it, and even then you would have to keep moving forwards to view the screen.
A 46" is too *SMALL*? I have to simply disagree. Its already the size of an early Bally Widebody without the border. How much bigger should it be? I have a 65" I could make a table I guess lol.
As a table, the final height is debatable, but either as a coffee table or a acocktail table with stool, the table surface is as low as or lower than where the playfield would land on a pinball. You don't have to "move forwards to the view the screen" any more than you do a real pinball.
4) If these tables were a money making idea, we would have them as standard in our homes by now, but we do not. If you took this on shark tank or dragons den you would here a lot of I'm out.
Understandable. I would not expect these to be a standard household commodity. They are a money making idea for *me* because I have most of the parts on hand. Not really as much of a "money maker" as much as I just don't want to do it all up for just my tastes in the event I end up needing to sell.
5) I would re purpose these and turn them into jukebox's that is where the money would be, especially with a decent software.
They will have jukebox software. Nothing I am doing will prevent them from being used for anything else like that.
The tables will be a very hard sell, and not worth your time.
That may very well be true. But again, I intended to this to one for myself, so duplicating the effort for a 2nd one is not a ton of time (which is all I have a ton of lately)
Go big or go home, I am rubbish at woodwork, but if you look at it logically, a pinball table is pretty much two boxes, one which resembles a coffin and the other that sits on top, you can call that the tomb stone.
The hardest thing is to get it accurate as possible, the inner workings are a lot harder than I had imagined, all the solenoids, flippers, coin inserts etc, makes it a lot harder than an arcade cabinet, but the wood working is easier.
I don't feel every single VP table needs to be "as accurate as possible"...do you feel like every mame machine here needs to look exactly like an original arcade to be enjoyable?
Every home needs a pinball cabinet, none need a touch screen table that you cannot even use as a coffee table.
While I'd agree that every home needs a pinball cabinet, many wives, apartment spaces, etc do NOT agree with that sentiment. There are many reasons I feel someone would want this touch screen table that *CAN* be used as a coffee table. That would be my target audience if I need to sell. Someone who wants a VP cab that their wife veto'd is a great example.
Again, thanks for the insight Mark, this kind of discussion is exactly what I was looking for.
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do you feel like every mame machine here needs to look exactly like an original arcade to be enjoyable?
yes.
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yes.
Hahha, no bartops for you then, eh Mike?
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Don't get me started.
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I guess on should put a purist warning on the title. ;D
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I did. Look under my Avatar.
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The problem is that when you shoehorn arcade controls onto a coffee table. It will look and feel like a coffee table with arcade controls bolted to it. It won't scratch that itch.
If your are younger than 40 it might not matter.
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Keroppi, to answer some of your comments but not all, just the more important ones
That is brilliant that you have a glass top, sadly from the pictures, you could NOT see the glass top, it just looked as if it was a monitor bolted to a table.
I am meaning the height of the unit, and not the monitor size. However, I can see myself having to lean forward everytime that I wanted to use something like this, but the couch would have to be higher than the coffee table, so I did not have to lean so much to use.
Selling your body also is a money making idea, but you have not considered that option? I did, but I had to issue too many refunds so I gave up being a rent boy.
Yes we understand that you have lost your job, to which I am very sorry about. However, I have a very small violin and I cannot play the violin, we had a saying in the forces to MAN UP.
I am one who prefers original stuff than poor clones, to give an example. I have Kodi, and over 12,000 movies, I then took a free trial for a streaming service. As much as I thought the streaming service was rubbish, but I loved the design of it. I now have that same skin design for kodi, and I have stolen the splash screens from this streaming service and replaced Kodi's with theirs to make it appear as if it is not Kodi and infact the streaming service.
A pinball table is a pinball table, a coffin which holds the main play field, the tomb stone, which holds the DMD and main graphic, I hate to say but they all look like this.
You do NOT have a market for a touch screen table, otherwise as I have said previously, you would have had someone go on shark tank or dragon's den and said give me money to produce these tables, it has not happened.
You are in a desperate LOST MY JOB need money, I will convince myself that I can make money off a lame idea, that if someone tells me I cannot make money, I will not listen. Yes you might be able to find one mug to buy something, but that does not make it a business. It gives you short term cash injection to buy some candles, so when the electrcity bill is not paid, at least you can have some light.
Again YOU DO NOT HAVE A TARGET AUDIENCE. I love technology, but try and sell me one and you will have a polite NO.
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I remember those tables from back in my Campus Technology Director days.
I’ll tell you what I tell anyone who is out of work and wants to build as a side gig - cabs are a money suck, and if you don’t have the spare cash, hold off on doing this until you find a new job. Unless you have all the parts on hand, your profit margin will be pretty thin.
I think it’s an interesting idea repurposing the table, but I’d need to see sketches before I say yay or nay.
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The problem is that when you shoehorn arcade controls onto a coffee table. It will look and feel like a coffee table with arcade controls bolted to it. It won't scratch that itch.
That's the deal, I don't want to have any of that visible. My mission is to have these controls all hidden and *not* look like a frankenstein. I want it to look much like it does currently.
Selling your body also is a money making idea, but you have not considered that option? I did, but I had to issue too many refunds so I gave up being a rent boy.
Yes we understand that you have lost your job, to which I am very sorry about. However, I have a very small violin and I cannot play the violin, we had a saying in the forces to MAN UP.
I don't recall asking you to cry me a river. The statement was to explain that I would have lots of time to get this done, not to invoke a pity party nor bizarrely off topic statements such as this one.
Yes you might be able to find one mug to buy something, but that does not make it a business.
I also don't recall talking about an assembly line. We are clearly using different definitions of target audience. You seem to be talking about some population percentage that would buy this. I am not trying to pitch this to Mark Cuban. I am planning to sell one, possibly two. Which you said yourself is feasible.
You are in a desperate LOST MY JOB need money, I will convince myself that I can make money off a lame idea, that if someone tells me I cannot make money, I will not listen. Yes you might be able to find one mug to buy something, but that does not make it a business. It gives you short term cash injection to buy some candles, so when the electrcity bill is not paid, at least you can have some light.
I appreciate forum opinions, even ones that my idea is "lame". That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. However do not presume to tell me how desperate I am, nor anything else personal about me. I am here for discussion about the build, not your opinion on whether or not I can pay my electricity bill.
try and sell me one and you will have a polite NO.
Duly noted. You are clearly not my niche in a niche target audience.
I’ll tell you what I tell anyone who is out of work and wants to build as a side gig - cabs are a money suck, and if you don’t have the spare cash, hold off on doing this until you find a new job. Unless you have all the parts on hand, your profit margin will be pretty thin.
I am not doing this specifically and only for money, and I have most of the parts on hand. I was planning on doing it anyways, so I figured build 2. I only even brought up the bit that I would sell one or both so I could get opinions on a neutral, masses-pleasing aesthetic instead of a whole bunch of "its ur cab, just do it how u like" posts.
That said, the thread is already pointing in the wrong direction, I have edited the original post to help put it back on track.
I think it’s an interesting idea repurposing the table, but I’d need to see sketches before I say yay or nay.
Thats the deal, Yots, other than turning the dark gray black and a couple of flipper buttons, I wouldn't have much to add to the sketch. I am wanting the controls all hidden until use if possible, and looking for opinions.
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Don't pay any attention to Mark Norville. He just found out that Santa is not real. It is really messing with his head.
If you start sketching stuff out we will try to help you.
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Hmmm... I’d still like to see sketches. It’d make it easier to picture your vision as to what I think it might look like. I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand, but I’d like to see your thoughts. I think maybe attached handheld controllers (instead of an full-blown arcade panel) might be a better way to go.
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I'll try and sketch something up I suppose. Yots, you feel like attached controls might be good? I'd figure like Mike said, they'd be horrible. I'd probably want the removable at worst.
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Selling your body also is a money making idea, but you have not considered that option? I did, but I had to issue too many refunds so I gave up being a rent boy.
Yes we understand that you have lost your job, to which I am very sorry about. However, I have a very small violin and I cannot play the violin, we had a saying in the forces to MAN UP.
I don't recall asking you to cry me a river. The statement was to explain that I would have lots of time to get this done, not to invoke a pity party nor bizarrely off topic statements such as this one.
Yes you might be able to find one mug to buy something, but that does not make it a business.
I also don't recall talking about an assembly line. We are clearly using different definitions of target audience. You seem to be talking about some population percentage that would buy this. I am not trying to pitch this to Mark Cuban. I am planning to sell one, possibly two. Which you said yourself is feasible.
You are in a desperate LOST MY JOB need money, I will convince myself that I can make money off a lame idea, that if someone tells me I cannot make money, I will not listen. Yes you might be able to find one mug to buy something, but that does not make it a business. It gives you short term cash injection to buy some candles, so when the electrcity bill is not paid, at least you can have some light.
I appreciate forum opinions, even ones that my idea is "lame". That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. However do not presume to tell me how desperate I am, nor anything else personal about me. I am here for discussion about the build, not your opinion on whether or not I can pay my electricity bill.
try and sell me one and you will have a polite NO.
Duly noted. You are clearly not my niche in a niche target audience.
Fantastic responses to this chav. Don't let these rando's deter you from exploring ideas, the guys here will help out the best we can, regardless if it's not 'purist'.
Throw some ideas together and get the ball rolling. You could even prototype stuff out with cardboard to get a more spatial feeling for it.
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I'll try and sketch something up I suppose. Yots, you feel like attached controls might be good? I'd figure like Mike said, they'd be horrible. I'd probably want the removable at worst.
No, I meant “attached” like via USB, but definitely removable. Not something bolted on.
I’d love to see MAME running on it.
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Interesting idea, I don't hate it yet. :) (I kid, I kid.)
One useful thing I have to offer -
Electronics:
Luckily it has standard pc equipment stuffed into it. However, I don't think it'll be strong enough. I plan to upgrade it to an i5/i7 3000 series (3570/3770, etc), 16gb, and I can just barely squeeze a dual slot graphics card into it, so I am thinking gtx 1050/ti/1060ish.
I'd suggest checking to see if you've got headroom on the power supply to pull that off. Even a 1050 is going to pull about 75w max tdp, and a lot of small form factor integrated PCs have barely marginally sufficient power supplies with weird proprietary shapes. Not saying it won't work, just that it's worth research before you spend money. If it's a standard physical size power supply, no prob.
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I'd suggest checking to see if you've got headroom on the power supply to pull that off.
Great idea! I just looked, its got 3 labeled power supplies, and it'll be a bear to figure out what is pulling from what. Has another board board that must be running step down and such.
24v @ 12.5A
12v @ 6.66A
19V @ 8A
...so by my rough estimate, there's about 600w available, probably 100w of which would be running the screen.
So here's what it would look like if I took the easy/cheap way out using the on hand monitors. These show the legs cut down which I am still on the fence about. I just grab some random fight stick image off the net that somewhat matched. The monitor should be *relatively* scaled, but my photoshop skills aren't great. Obviously, there is no attachment mechanisms, this is just the visual mockup for Yots. Let me know what you think.
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=379914;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=379915;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=379916;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=379917;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=159740.0;attach=379918;image)
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So I have x2 pinscape (KL25Z) boards, and 3 complete (bare) bare sets of extender boards. Nothing but contactors is going in this build, so I only need the power booster board. I (just now) realized that this also requires the main expansion board, which is mostly useless for my purposes in this build. I priced 2 sets anyway on Mouser, ~$390 USD!
Needless to say, that ain't gonna happen just to drive some contactors. I'll either save them for another build or sell them off and get MikePinball's AIO board:
https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=42631 (https://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=42631).
So, I am looking at the the 16 channel SainSmart relay board:
https://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-16-Channel-9-36V-Relay-Module/dp/B0793MZH2B/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_2?keywords=sainsmart+16+port+relay+usb&qid=1573017635&sr=8-2-fkmr3 (https://www.amazon.com/SainSmart-16-Channel-9-36V-Relay-Module/dp/B0793MZH2B/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_2?keywords=sainsmart+16+port+relay+usb&qid=1573017635&sr=8-2-fkmr3)
to cover the contactors, but I hear rumors of bad reliability. Thoughts?
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From an ergonomics standpoint this sounds like a nightmare. I probably wouldn't cut down the legs. As an adult sitting on the sofa playing a coffee table machine will end up hunched over. So what I would do is get a pair of 6" Risers made to go under the legs so that there was a slope to the screen. If you are playing pinball both go under the head end and if playing horizontal games then could go on the 2 back corners. (You would probably need a pair of matching levellers for the other legs).
For arcade gaming I would go with what you show in the last image, but not have the controllers attached to the table in any way. Just have them in your lap.
I assume you are planning on making the pinball head removable? I would love to see it on a pivot so it hangs down between the legs when not in use and is then flipped up into position for pinball. Would undoubtedly be a lot of work though.
Good luck with the build.
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Ok I see more of what you are trying to do now, where as before I thought that you was making a table out of a monitor.
You are trying to re invent the cocktail cabinet, sorry that was not really clear in your original post, I thought that you was trying to build a computer coffee/table (as seen in hawaii five o) and then a pinball table as a separate project.
You could try having the DMD side of it as a rise up monitor, a bit like a TV bed which would be a lot of work. It could have a slot where the monitor goes down between the legs for storage and then risen for when you want to play pinball.
The only other option would be to use a hinge, and extending the table, which might be a bad idea, but you would just lift the DMD monitor into place, when you do not need it, it folds down and rests on it's own legs.
The only negative is that pinball tables are slightly higher one end, so that the play field is more visible they are never flat, you would need to be using stools on this, rather than sitting on the couch just to get your eye line at a better viewing angle.
Another thing to consider is that Arcade 1 up are selling a cocktail cab for $300 so you will have a lot of competition once that is released, I would imagine that you would be trying to sell yours for around the $1,000 mark.
Instead of building a coffee table, why not just build a straight up pinball machine with touch screen functionality it would save you a lot of hassle trying to compete with Arcade 1 up and rehashing the sit down cocktail cabinet?
You would certainly have a customer if you done that.
Regards
Mark
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I assume you are planning on making the pinball head removable? I would love to see it on a pivot so it hangs down between the legs when not in use and is then flipped up into position for pinball. Would undoubtedly be a lot of work though.
Well, I have no intention on "leg risers" ( if I did, I'd cut the legs proportionately) ...but even though I have tested the "coffee table mode" to be comfortable, I am not completely sold on cutting the legs yet.
To be clear, the table is already too low to use as a normal pincab, so it's really the choice between coffee table and "cocktail" table.
For arcade gaming I would go with what you show in the last image, but not have the controllers attached to the table in any way. Just have them in your lap.
They will either have an attachment point, or they will be permanently attached and hidden like the backbox. I have no interest in lap-mounted fight sticks. I hate them. Passionately. If it comes to that, I will just use a wireless controller.
I assume you are planning on making the pinball head removable? I would love to see it on a pivot so it hangs down between the legs when not in use and is then flipped up into position for pinball. Would undoubtedly be a lot of work though.
YES. To be clear, *hide-able*. This is the primary function of the cab, and what I need the forum's genius help with. The backbox will stow under the cab, and be slid out for use. It should slide on drawer slides (or similar) and it will need to be hinged. The hinge will either need some kind of pin/slide lock or the the whole assembly should hold in place by friction of the monitor setting atop the table portion. I specifically need help with the additional length for the radius of the hinge clearance. Really, I need help with all the details lol. I just got finished drawing it up, this is what I have to work with:
(https://i.imgur.com/ln8cmf6.png)
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The only negative is that pinball tables are slightly higher one end, so that the play field is more visible they are never flat, you would need to be using stools on this, rather than sitting on the couch just to get your eye line at a better viewing angle.
Hi Mark. You are now one of two people mentioning considerations for the angle of the table. Although stools vs. couch would ultimately depend on the table height, the overall angle is a fair concern.
The table itself has rising and lowering/locking caster in the legs. I just checked with my incline-o-meter, and by raising one side all the way up, and flattening the other side, I get 3 degrees.
This still holds the cab in place reasonably adequately, and although it's barely half of a real pinball incline, it'll have to do. The primary aesthetic of this thing is a coffee table, and a crooked one will not do.
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As the saying goes sometimes less is more.
In this case, the less I have to move something, the better. I would not want to keep bending down, pulling something out, locking it into place, then reversing the steps when I have finished with it.
Ease of use has to be the main consideration.
If say for example the table is 50 inches long. If you extended that table so you had the second monitor in a small part of the table, you would have legs on the smaller table, so all what you would do would be to lift the smaller end up and lock into place.
So the table would now be 60 inches long, but it would save having to unfold it like something out of the Thunderbirds, when you can just lift it up instead.
You could also look at having sliding legs, so you have a track when you need it for a pinball table you slide the legs from the right to the left and vice versa and then lift or lower the screen as need be.
It needs to be as light as possible as you do not want the wood if it is being made from wood tearing against the weight of the monitor.
You also have to remember that as you have two control panels on the same side, how comfortable it will be for two adults, let alone children to sit down, side by side and use.
To give you more work, or things to think about, you could have a system where the monitor will lay flat when packed away, but when you are wanting to play pinball or something like that, you can lift up the monitor slightly so that it is at an angle.
All of which is going to require some trial and error but the main thing to get right is the packing and storage right, so the customer does not have to do a lot.
Regards
Mark
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In this case, the less I have to move something, the better. I would not want to keep bending down, pulling something out, locking it into place, then reversing the steps when I have finished with it.
Ease of use has to be the main consideration.
Agreed. However, unless I add actuators to this thing, there will be manual step involved. Unavoidable, I'm afraid.
If say for example the table is 50 inches long. If you extended that table so you had the second monitor in a small part of the table, you would have legs on the smaller table, so all what you would do would be to lift the smaller end up and lock into place.
So the table would now be 60 inches long, but it would save having to unfold it like something out of the Thunderbirds, when you can just lift it up instead.
Not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean situate the "backbox" at the end up the table and slide directly up, like ErikFed's excellent build here?:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/193174693809?ul_noapp=true (https://www.ebay.com/itm/193174693809?ul_noapp=true)
That's not what I am going for; the only way to do that is a "box on the floor" and it would ruin the aestheticI am going for.
It needs to be as light as possible as you do not want the wood if it is being made from wood tearing against the weight of the monitor.
Thus far, I am not convinced to make *anything* out of wood. The renders are really convincing me that all I need to do is add a good hinge/rail system and some contactors and call it good.
You also have to remember that as you have two control panels on the same side, how comfortable it will be for two adults, let alone children to sit down, side by side and use.
I am torn on the control panels. They will be either well hidden or easily detachable if I add them. 2 players on the same side of a 46" screen does not bother me when 2 players can easily fight side-by-side on a 19" one.
To give you more work, or things to think about, you could have a system where the monitor will lay flat when packed away, but when you are wanting to play pinball or something like that, you can lift up the monitor slightly so that it is at an angle.
Might be more work, but that was the plan all along. See post above.
All of which is going to require some trial and error but the main thing to get right is the packing and storage right, so the customer does not have to do a lot.
Again, there's only gonna be one or two customers *tops*, but watch the video in the first post. Assuming I have to ship one, it can be easily broken down into constituent parts in 2-4 boxes tops.
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From an ergonomics standpoint this sounds like a nightmare. I probably wouldn't cut down the legs.
Drnick, you said I shouldn't cut down the legs.
That's the beauty of PhotoShop; here is the options at full height:
(https://i.imgur.com/8WADC7Q.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/UMQU0WH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c1ISnjE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VIv35a9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CBDcptx.jpg)
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Ok so at the moment, from what I am seeing
1) A company is already producing these tables, and you want to rip them off and produce a similar table to them
2) The actual images are not what you have designed it is their images which you are photoshopping to gain an idea of what potentially a finished product would look like
3) I do not like the small back glass panel (monitor) at the end, a larger monitor that fits the whole table, might look a lot better and have a lot more purposes for other applications, such as a jukebox or karaoke.
4) If you add hinges and brackets at either end you can lift the monitor upwards so it gives a better viewing angle.
5) Yes I was saying that you should do something such as that person did on ebay where it is one long table until it lifts up.
I will fire up photoshop and give you a rough idea of what I mean, I am not going to waste all of my day doing superb graphics, so please note that this is only rough.
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As promised it is a very rough image, but hopefully you can see what I mean
One side of the monitor you can tilt so that it is in a higher position, so you can play pinball a bit better
You also have when two players are sat down another hinge that you can lift up so that the screen comes forward towards the players and locks into place.
Regards
Mark
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One side of the monitor you can tilt so that it is in a higher position, so you can play pinball a bit better
You also have when two players are sat down another hinge that you can lift up so that the screen comes forward towards the players and locks into place.
Mark: I get it...but what I feel you're not getting is: The table (including monitor) is all one piece. There is no tilting, or pulling the monitor from the table, etc....its one piece. What you get is what you get. In this instance, a max 3 degree playfield angle.
1) A company is already producing these tables, and you want to rip them off and produce a similar table to them
No. As stated in the initial post, this table (in basic form) is already produced by Promethean as the "ActiveTable", an educational touchscreen device. I in no way, shape, or form, claimed to design this myself. Furthermore, I am not *aware* of anyone re-purposing a super niche educational touchscreen to make pinball tables, but if if I am not the first, then yes, I am *totally* infringing on their "copyright" and ripping them off. I will happily have that argument and subsequent lawsuit. Please direct them all to me. LOL
2) The actual images are not what you have designed it is their images which you are photoshopping to gain an idea of what potentially a finished product would look like
Yes. Jesus Christ! (You new to this forum?) I am starting with: a commercial product (an educational touchscreen). A viable, REAL product that (schools) pay money for (and can go ahead and sue if they don't like me using their "property")... Then, I propose to turn it into a *different* product...in this case, a virtual pinball machine. So YES, I use the the original product as the basis of my photo rendering. That's how that works. I start with the base, and then add my customization(s). That is how people create a "concept". WTF is so hard to understand about that?
3) I do not like the small back glass panel (monitor) at the end, a larger monitor that fits the whole table, might look a lot better and have a lot more purposes for other applications, such as a jukebox or karaoke.
I agree. I'd much rather turn the 30" 2560x1440 back landscape as well, it makes a good sized 16:10 back box similar to Williams. It would be big, and useful, and wonderful! Unfortunately, if I do that, it's permanent...it no longer fits between the legs to tuck behind. The space between the legs is 21.5"...so yeah, that's not doable.
4) If you add hinges and brackets at either end you can lift the monitor upwards so it gives a better viewing angle.
Have you actually read what I am doing here? I plan to add hinges and brackets. It will accommodate many angles. If you know of a magical way to accomplish what I have proposed above *without* hinges and bracket, let me know!
5) Yes I was saying that you should do something such as that person did on ebay where it is one long table until it lifts up.
If that is your recommendation, after all I had explained before your post, I feel that you've missed the plot.
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(https://i.imgur.com/gktKTyv.jpg)
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I am not going to go through all of your points. However
1) You said that you wanted feedback and input. You have that.
2) You said that you wanted a project, no matter how long it took, I gave you that with the monitor being tiltable
3) You have slated me on point 4, but then saying that the monitor will be one piece and no tilting etc, however you are contradicting yourself.
4) The only piece that you want to have hinges is the monitor that you want to use as a backglass for the pinball table.
I UNDERSTAND THAT
In my eyes having hinges that give you a better viewing angle to me would be a bigger selling point than having to stare down at a screen.
However,
1) Arcade 1 up are going to be selling a cocktail cabinet for $300 to $400 a lot of people will possibly buy one of those, rather than wanting to buy this from you
You also mention coffee table in your poll, coffee tables are usually lower than the seating size of the average couch. So when a full grown adult is sat on the couch, they are going to have to keep leaning to play, which is going to cause back ache in the end.
The education tables as you call them are aimed at small children looking at the size of the legs on that. The larger the person the higher you need for it to be.
Also a coffee table you have length ways, so you would need to use a stool as well if you wanted to play pinball.
As someone has said try and make a cardboard version of this and see how awkward it is going to be for sitting from different angles.
Also to give you two things that I like to do with my coffee table
1) Put a drink on it or other junk (you could make cup holders to combat this)
2) Put my feet up on it.
Both of which would interfere with the touch interface unless you had it turned off
We could go back and forth all day like this, you can pick faults with what I say, and I can pick faults with your idea.
However, if I wanted a sit down cabinet, I would buy one from Arcade 1 Up, a lot cheaper than you would be selling this for.
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To give you an example as close as I can give it, you would need something like this
It would be an adjustable hinge at the end and side of the table, that you can lift forwards and upwards, which increases the viewing angle.
Once you have done with it, then you just push it down into place once more so it can be used as a table.
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Toh-May-Toh, Toh-Mah-Toh.
I am good.
Especially since I just played a game of pinball on my coffee table and didn't feel like I was straining.
Lets just agree to disagree?
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(https://i.imgur.com/qTuccKW.jpg)
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I just flew around the World on my coffee table, I imagined that it was a plane. As you do not have a working prototype one assumes that you sat down and tried imagining what it would be like playing at coffee table height?
I just done the same experiment with my coffee table, and I had to lean forward to see the play field and my back was starting to strain and that was after two seconds of pretending.
I am 5 foot 9, if you do not understand that humans are different, the playing experience is totally different depending upon your height and seating position.
However, it is your project, if you think that you can make it work, then good luck to you.
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... good luck to you.
Thanks!
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Contrary to "popular" belief, I have a working prototype.
My primary coffee table is a Samsung SUR40, aka the Microsoft Surfacae 2.0/Pixelsense table: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jod6rfV7tBs&list=PL44CF9319871FCFD6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jod6rfV7tBs&list=PL44CF9319871FCFD6)
I have had it for over 6 years.
Ergo, I am pretty sure I know the ergonomics and limitations of touchscreen coffee tables.
'Just sayin'....
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The best thing you can do is ignore Mark Norville. He has some mental issues that make it very difficult for him to function in a social environment.
He is also obsessed with my junk. He can't stop talking about it.
You are doing everything right. You stated what you want to do. You asked for suggestions. You graciously accepted positive and negative input. That is all you need to do.
You don't need to repeatedly defend your decision to a mentally unstable weirdo.
There are people here who will help you build what you want to build. Your attitude and patience are admirable.
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What the crap is a JAFA? Isn't he that wizard guy in the Lion King? Or did you mean Jawa? I am short. That is a possibility.
I don't want to wreck this thread. If you want to call me weird names you can pick one of my threads.
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Contrary to "popular" belief, I have a working prototype.
My primary coffee table is a Samsung SUR40, aka the Microsoft Surfacae 2.0/Pixelsense table: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jod6rfV7tBs&list=PL44CF9319871FCFD6 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jod6rfV7tBs&list=PL44CF9319871FCFD6)
I have had it for over 6 years.
Ergo, I am pretty sure I know the ergonomics and limitations of touchscreen coffee tables.
'Just sayin'....
I will offer one news article, there are a lot more like it, however this was just a quick search https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9079334/iPads-carry-RSI-risk.html
As I said previously I have three touch screen monitors, so I have spoken from my experience of using them.
When you go to the pub and use a touch screen jukebox, which is what started my journey of seeing my first touch screen jukebox. It is great and fun to use it the first time, you scroll around and are amazed by a new toy.
However, when you next go into the pub, you spend about five minutes selecting tracks, and then you sit down, and you might not put any more music on. However, constant use of a touch screen gets very boring after a while and also as I have previously said, that it can cause more RSI than using a keyboard and mouse.
Constant use of touchscreen can be very bad for the person involved, once it starts hurting, then you use less and less. I have actually thought about a touch screen coffee table ages ago but it would have been a table, a monitor a lot of sticky tape and a bodge job.
It was a novelty idea, but everything that I could do on that idea, I can do on my nexus 7 tablet, e.g I can use it for kodi navigation or to stream a movie or youtube to the TV.
I would recommend getting if you have not already Simple Touch FE it is great for touch screen, and something I was playing around with for my touch screen quiz machine.
It would be perfect for your project especially if you do a custom design on it. If you loaded the table or whatever you are going to do with a lot of software then yeah people will go wow look at all what it can do.
The main thing that I can suggest is before you even start the project, work out how much you think that you want to sell the table for, and then ask other people what they think about the price.
To give an example, if you said I am going to charge £50,000 $50,000 for the table once it is complete, I am pretty sure you will have people say you will not get that for it.
Do your costing first, and work out if this is really worth your time and effort. If you go to the hassle of building it, if you over price yourself, then it might never sell and it might just have been a wasted project.
As I say if Arcade 1 up are doing a cocktail cabinet for $500 are you going to be able to compete with the fact that a lot of people will be buying these units, and might not have extra funds or room, to buy your table.
Regards
Mark
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Ignoring the weird ramblings for across the pond going on...
I don’t like how the backbox is way narrower than the table. I get why, but it just looks like a tacked on afterthought to me.
I mean, if you have the parts and the time to build it for yourself, go for it, but I don’t know how much of a market you’d have for it. You’d probably be better off taking the table and converting into a futuristic desk if you want to sell it.
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Ignoring the weird ramblings for across the pond going on...
I don’t like how the backbox is way narrower than the table. I get why, but it just looks like a tacked on afterthought to me.
I mean, if you have the parts and the time to build it for yourself, go for it, but I don’t know how much of a market you’d have for it. You’d probably be better off taking the table and converting into a futuristic desk if you want to sell it.
A good suggestion actually, we have been focusing on cocktail cabinet and coffee table, that no one has talked about other uses. I think I mentioned a jukebox would be more saleable than something like this.
The only downside to this that I can see is really you need a customer for it before you start the project, the reason why I say that for, is if you make a 6 foot desk, and sell it as such. A customer could come along and say I love the desk, I really want to buy it, but I only have room for 5 feet. You are going to be hit and miss on if you make it, then you have to sell it, the same as the other ideas.
Also you would have to try and sell more local as any of the options are potentially going to come with shipping costs or some sort of removal,
You could do a lot with a desk that you could not do with the other things, you could include a wireless charging dock a hingeable mount so the monitor can be raised when it use, or lowered when not in use.
The main thing though is costing and resale value for all of the ideas. What ever you build, you have to try and sell. If people don't want it, then you are left with furniture that you might not have wanted.
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I would be thinking more about the software, like a Mame those Roms are either going to blast this build into the red, or you in prison...the design needs help, The head does not appear to belong to the machine and in attempt to be futuristic would be better off being projected, possibly even onto the floor underneath it... and as a coffee table it is going to take abuse far beyond a typical V/P and would need to be spill proofed which would add a whole new aspect of design, unless your fine with the game under glass look.
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Yes software is kind of an issue but not much, a lot of people get away with selling hyperspin drives, machines with jamma boards etc as he is only selling one or two of these. The chances are he will be fine. It is when you pirate and sell a load of hard drives and things like that when they eventually catch you. If he was caught and it was a one off thing, he would get a wrap around the knuckles and told not to do it again, if he was making million's from it, then that is another story.
If he sold this with the N word that will not be spoken, and he has all of their roms then they will have a field day if he is caught.
Sadly he has not even thought about any of the details apart from making the thing and trying to sell it. I have tried to give him a business perspective, but most of the times he is not listening to that.
1) cost of material
2) labour costs (you need to pay yourself)
3) shipping/handling
4) official or unofficial windows operating system, or are you going to use linux etc
5) are you going to offer product support or are you going to sell sold as seen
The list is almost endless really, I do not think he has really thought about anything and he is desperately trying to make a quick buck but by the time that he builds the thing, I do not think that it will give him half as much as he is possibly hoping to sell it for.
E.G he has one million dollars in his head, and it might be worth $50 to someone else.
Still
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If he sold this with the N word
Why you gotta be racism man???!!1!
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lol
I am not using that N word, get your mind out of the gutter.
I am using the N word emulation, arcade, console word.
I can say it, if you really are that stupid however, I would sooner not use the N word, simply because since they destroyed most of the rom sites, they will follow any website such as this that uses their name and look at what people are saying.
If someone is using their artwork etc etc, then who knows what they would do?
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lol
I am not using that N word, get your mind out of the gutter.
I am using the N word emulation, arcade, console word.
I can say it, if you really are that stupid however, I would sooner not use the N word, simply because since they destroyed most of the rom sites, they will follow any website such as this that uses their name and look at what people are saying.
If someone is using their artwork etc etc, then who knows what they would do?
Don’t worry, if Chance didn’t summon Nintendo years ago when he fanboi’d out, then we’re quite safe.
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I bet you say bomb, assassination and kill the president when you are on the phone don't you.
The N word are not as high tech as them, but they will still search sites and see what if any copyrighted stuff is being used.
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Nintendo doesn’t care. This site does not host any Nintendo ROMS. We only discuss Nintendo games and restoration of Nintendo cabinets here. Relax, Nintendo has no beef with us.
Nintendo Nintendo Nintendo.
Nintendo.
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The N word don't care, anything and everything N related is copyrighted.
Yes you do not hold roms, which if they type in N and roms, however their artwork is copyrighted, even if you had sonic bending over and mario is doing it from behind, N might smile for two seconds, and then ask for the image to be removed.
However, as we were talking about what software might be included as part of the sale of this cabinet, he might be looking at including N roms.
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Saint has rules in place here to make companies like Nintendo happy. So as much as you’d like to see Sonic rogering Mario, that’s not gonna happen.
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The N word don't care, anything and everything N related is copyrighted.
Yes you do not hold roms, which if they type in N and roms, however their artwork is copyrighted, even if you had sonic bending over and mario is doing it from behind, N might smile for two seconds, and then ask for the image to be removed.
However, as we were talking about what software might be included as part of the sale of this cabinet, he might be looking at including N roms.
N roms?... :laugh2:
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There would be no racist roms included with the table lol.
How tf did this thread get so derailed that I come back and Mario is Railing sonic? :blowup:
Can we please not focus on the issues with possibly selling one (profit, legality, etc.)? Even if no one buys one, I don't mind having two.
The only consideration I wanted selling one to imply on this build thread is to not make design decisions that 99% of people would hate (like painting it fluorescent pink with purple polka dots)
...the design needs help, The head does not appear to belong to the machine and in attempt to be futuristic would be better off being projected, possibly even onto the floor underneath it... and as a coffee table it is going to take abuse far beyond a typical V/P and would need to be spill proofed which would add a whole new aspect of design, unless your fine with the game under glass look.
I agree about the head, this is one of the primary sacrifice in making this table a vpin. However it is absolutely required. The score display is, at least. I could always plaster it into the apron area...much simpler, obviously, but it would take away from the experience, I think.
The projection is an interesting idea, but it would never be seen. Not to mention the issues with floor types/colors/etc that would make it inherently difficult to implement.
The table is already glass and spill resistant. ie you can spill a drink, and wipe it up and all is fine. Spill a drink and leave it there, different story. So while it would not survive a commercial environment, in home use it's perfectly fine. I have had a similar touchscreen as my coffee table for 6 years now. I never made that one a vpin because it's all sharp angles and nowhere to put buttons.
Does anyone have any suggestions about a possible hinge mechanism? (I posted all the measurements about a page back before all the Nintendo porn lol)
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Well, I spent some more time on the mockup, and gotta admit, I feel pretty stupid. I was sacrificing the backbox design due to the portrait orientation required by the leg spacing.
Well, there's absolutely no reason I can't rotate the backglass *after* it's cleared the legs! I can then also fold in a dmd/speaker panel and make it look proper!
(https://i.imgur.com/6iOsuIC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5uheKCA.png)
I am still working out the mechanics; the best thing I can come up with is locking rail slides:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/817R4RrvgML._AC_UL320_ML3_.jpg)
However, I have reservations that this would work out vertically. That's simply not how they were designed to hold the weight.
If I need to make the "vertical" platform *solid*, the "representational" platform length under the table is ~42" (not measured in the drawing above).
That will make them stick out even further (and) lower than the monitor on the other end. This runs the risk of it being visible, especially if I don't cut down the legs to make it coffee table.
One option to save half a dozen precious inches is this case would be to move the dmd panel to the top, "Premier" style, which I don't think looks half bad:
(https://i.imgur.com/Mc31hq0.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pEyrQo0.png)
What do you think?
If anyone has any recommendations on the mechanics, I'd love to hear it!
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So I have spent some time working out the mechanics of it, and the biggest issue is that the back/bottom of the backbox platform must clear past the bottom of the cabinet before rotating upward.
This cannot be accomplished by a single set of rail slides. As best I can tell, It will require a set of rail slides and good 'ol fashioned drawer rollers.
This is not the ideal solution, but its the best that I can come up with.
I am not chuffed about $50 for a set of locking rail slides, but it needs a stable fulcrum while being hoisted up into place.
A simple screw or such can stop the assembly from continuing out of the rails (as drawers were meant to be able to be pulled up and out).
A detent pin or something of the like can hold the vertical platform in place.
I don't love this solution, but this part is *not* my strong suit. If anyone has a better sub-$100 solution, I'd *really* love to hear it!
(https://i.imgur.com/ztThZUT.png)
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If I wanted to do your basic backbox functionality cheaper and more rigidly, I might not incorporate all that guided motion into it.
Consider if your backbox simply had two square studs that stuck out on the bottom, and there were four square tube receivers on the table that they slid into - one pair positioned for the "stowed" under-table, and one pair positioned off the back legs for the "deployed" position. If your backbox isn't too heavy to manhandle, you'd just unplug it from one place, carry it over to the other with all the cables still attached, and plug it in over there.
It's not as slick, but it could be cheaper and stronger, I think.
Also, regarding your playfield, I'd suggest to try running some vpin software on a flat horizontal playfield table and see what you think of it before you finalize your engineering. I found I couldn't live with it, I needed about a 6 degree incline, so I ended up doing a bunch of engineering work to support that - you may find that flat bothers you, or you may find you can live with it.
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If I wanted to do your basic backbox functionality cheaper and more rigidly, I might not incorporate all that guided motion into it.
Consider if your backbox simply had two square studs that stuck out on the bottom, and there were four square tube receivers on the table that they slid into - one pair positioned for the "stowed" under-table, and one pair positioned off the back legs for the "deployed" position. If your backbox isn't too heavy to manhandle, you'd just unplug it from one place, carry it over to the other with all the cables still attached, and plug it in over there.
It's not as slick, but it could be cheaper and stronger, I think.
Also, regarding your playfield, I'd suggest to try running some vpin software on a flat horizontal playfield table and see what you think of it before you finalize your engineering. I found I couldn't live with it, I needed about a 6 degree incline, so I ended up doing a bunch of engineering work to support that - you may find that flat bothers you, or you may find you can live with it.
I had thought about that idea, but I feel like that would become as hassle. The backbox will definitely end up having some weight to it, I am figuring 30-35 lbs-ish.
I got some of the software setup now, I don't love the flatness but I can live with it. I am in absolute awe over what you did to get that 6 degrees, I follow your build regularly.
It's my first time setting up all of the vpin software, man, there is a LOT to do! I am only about 1/2 there, got visual pinball, updated pinmame, updated b2s, dof, freezy dmd, future pinball, bam, and just starting on doflinx, then onto the pup system/frontend. I also am requesting cabinet keys for Pinball FX2/FX3...I had always thought the cabinet icon was to rotate the screen, I was quite surprised it was to ask for a code! Hopefully I can still get one for FX2. I am pissed enough that they won't let me finish buying my tables and complete the set, but if I can't play my FX2 exclusives on the cab, I'll be quite annoyed.