The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Bobgilb1 on December 10, 2013, 11:07:30 am
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To start with, "Hello"!! I am about as much of a newbie as you can get :laugh:
I went to a friend’s house about a week ago that had a cabinet (he bought it already assembled so he can’t help much) and I have been reading obsessively it ever since trying to figure out how to build my own four player panel. It is a bit overwhelming but I have really tried to pour through as much information as I can…..
Right now I am concentrating on building just the four player control panel. I am planning on putting a small form factor PC into the bottom of the control panel to make my control panel portable (I am an I.T. guy so this part does not intimidate me much). Later I am likely to buy an old cabinet, fix it up, and slide my control panel in (after doing some significant woodwork, obviously) but initially I am just going to concentrate on the control panel and I will make it fit later to a cabinet.
In general I am just open to any and all thoughts, recommendations, ideas, etc. based on what I THINK I know :laugh:
So far, here is what I have come up with:
I am planning on using MDO instead of MDF for the wood in my control panel
I am planning on my MDO being 5/8” thick
Update: Holy cow 5/8" MDO is hard to find!
I am planning on using plexiglass instead of Lexan
I am planning on my plexiglass being 1/8” thick
I am buying a forstner 1 1/8” bit for drilling (especially for the plexiglass)
I am planning on using a drill press at high speed but moving very slowly, using my forstner bit to drill the holes in my plexiglass and MDO
I am planning on buying some scrap pieces to test the drilling out first
I have purchased 4 “Mag-Stik Plus” joysticks from Ultimarc (to allow for 4-way and 8-way adjustment)
I have purchased an I-Pac 4 controller
I have purchased a wiring kit from Ultimarc
I have purchased one U-TRAK FlushMount Arcade Trackbal (and bezel)
I have purchased one Opti-PAC Interface with USB Cable
I have purchased several colors of Competition Pushbuttons (6 buttons each player, 1-4 player buttons, 6 admin buttons, and 4 coin buttons)
I am aware that player’s 3 and 4 probably don’t need 6 buttons but I am a bit OCD and like them all to match :laugh:
I know that 6 admin buttons is kind of a crazy amount and am open to less but I read somewhere that (Enter, Pause, Left Mouse, Right Mouse, F2, and Escape might be worth considering)
I have decided not to do spinners or a flight stick at this time
I moved the trackball down some to give me room to really get after some Golden Tee without hitting any Admin buttons (if I decide to keep them)
Attached is my first rendition of my control panel layout.....again, any and all thoughts welcomed and appreciated!
Thanks for all of the wonderful information on this board! I hope to become a contributing member as I learn the ropes a bit more
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(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=301254;image)
They should be oriented the same way as P1 & P2, even though the player is standing at an angle and the buttons are at an angle in relation.
It's counterintuitive, but almost all arcade games were done this way and it works better in real life than the way you have it there.
Do a google image search for the control panels of gauntlet, the simpsons, nfl blitz, etc and notice where the mounting bolts are on P3 & P4 joysticks.
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You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up getting those magsticks. P3 and p4 will never need 4way sticks, and they suck...
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...and welcome to the forum! :lol :cheers:
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They should be oriented the same way as P1 & P2, even though the player is standing at an angle and the buttons are at an angle in relation.
It's counterintuitive, but almost all arcade games were done this way and it works better in real life than the way you have it there.
Do a google image search for the control panels of gauntlet, the simpsons, nfl blitz, etc and notice where the mounting bolts are on P3 & P4 joysticks.
Researching it now, thanks!
Man, I have a terrible time figuring out these verification letters
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You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up getting those magsticks. P3 and p4 will never need 4way sticks, and they suck...
Hahaha! No problem, I can send them back, sell them or whatever if there is a clearly better option.
I just ordered them, haven't installed them or anything yet
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I am aware that player’s 3 and 4 probably don’t need 6 buttons but I am a bit OCD and like them all to match :laugh:
Kaneda? Is that you?
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Any thoughts on how to get my hands on 5/8" MDO? I have called everywhere I know of and the best I can do is a sheet of 15/32" MDO
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They should be oriented the same way as P1 & P2, even though the player is standing at an angle and the buttons are at an angle in relation.
It's counterintuitive, but almost all arcade games were done this way and it works better in real life than the way you have it there.
Do a google image search for the control panels of gauntlet, the simpsons, nfl blitz, etc and notice where the mounting bolts are on P3 & P4 joysticks.
Did you mean something like this?
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They should be oriented the same way as P1 & P2, even though the player is standing at an angle and the buttons are at an angle in relation.
It's counterintuitive, but almost all arcade games were done this way and it works better in real life than the way you have it there.
Do a google image search for the control panels of gauntlet, the simpsons, nfl blitz, etc and notice where the mounting bolts are on P3 & P4 joysticks.
Did you mean something like this?
Nope. Keep the buttons and joysticks where they were, but rotate the joystick housing so that it is parallel with the back edge of the CP.
(http://metahacking.org/webpics/mame1/10-22-2007/CIMG4706.JPG)
I know it seems messed up and counterintuitive, but most people are happier with them that way and that's how the original arcade games were done.
EDIT: The best policy is always to build a cheap test CP and try stuff out.
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Nope. Keep the buttons and joysticks where they were, but rotate the joystick housing so that it is parallel with the back edge of the CP.
I know it seems messed up and counterintuitive, but most people are happier with them that way and that's how the original arcade games were done.
EDIT: The best policy is always to build a cheap test CP and try stuff out.
Ohhhhhhh, interesting.
I will try it out, thanks!
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Nope. Keep the buttons and joysticks where they were, but rotate the joystick housing so that it is parallel with the back edge of the CP.
(http://metahacking.org/webpics/mame1/10-22-2007/CIMG4706.JPG)
Is that one setup with right handed joysticks and left-handed buttons or am I flipping it over in my mind wrong?
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Without thinking about it, people will intuitively move the joystick the direction they want the character to move or direction they want the fireball to fly based on the screen, not their body position.
Is that one setup with right handed joysticks and left-handed buttons or am I flipping it over in my mind wrong?
All of them have the joystick in the left hand and buttons operated with the right hand, which is standard.
Not sure what you are seeing?
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Without thinking about it, people will intuitively move the joystick the direction they want the character to move or direction they want the fireball to fly based on the screen, not their body position.
Makes total sense, thanks! Going to try and Photoshop a new one here soon
Is that one setup with right handed joysticks and left-handed buttons or am I flipping it over in my mind wrong?
All of them have the joystick in the left hand and buttons operated with the right hand, which is standard.
Not sure what you are seeing?
I was trying to flip that picture you posted right side up (as if looking at the topside with the joysticks and the buttons instead of underneath) and I think I was getting confused, please disregard! Thanks for posting that pic it really helped me clarify in my mind what you meant.
Edit: I see what I was doing wrong, please TOTALLY disregard my question about the right-handed joystick
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The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:
(http://aebillingsolutions.com/luckygatorhead/SP/30.JPG)
Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?
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(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=301254;image)
I don't remember that part of the movie. But it's been a while. :laugh:
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(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=301254;image)
I don't remember that part of the movie. But it's been a while. :laugh:
Just don't say, "What?" repeatedly, you'll really make him mad. :duckhunt
Scott
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(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=103207.0;attach=301254;image)
I don't remember that part of the movie. But it's been a while. :laugh:
Just don't say, "What?" repeatedly, you'll really make him mad. :duckhunt
Scott
(http://images.moviefanatic.com/iu/t_full/v1382378165/pulp-fiction-gif.gif) :laugh2:
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There's always the console excuse for having more than four buttons.
No game in MAME uses more than four.
Guilty Gear Isuka uses five and is playable on Demul if you have a decent PC, but it's generally thought of as the worst of the series.
The extra buttons won't adversely affect gameplay like angled joysticks would, so dowhatchyalike.
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There's always the console excuse for having more than four buttons.
No game in MAME uses more than four.
Guilty Gear Isuka uses five and is playable on Demul if you have a decent PC, but it's generally thought of as the worst of the series.
The extra buttons won't adversely affect gameplay like angled joysticks would, so dowhatchyalike.
I guess I get the console argument (though who would want to play console games like that), but because of symmetry? This is arcade building, not Feng Shui.
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You will never get four people to play your MAME cabinet at once no matter how much you beg.
Ever.
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The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:
(http://aebillingsolutions.com/luckygatorhead/SP/30.JPG)
Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?
I like that one, very nice! You don't happen to have that layout in some sort of format I could manipulate by chance, do you?
I am trying to figure out what the two orange buttons are? Left and right mouse, maybe?
Is that four 4-way joysticks and one 8-way and a spot for a flight stick ya think?
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You will never get four people to play your MAME cabinet at once no matter how much you beg.
Ever.
Hahahaha that is quite possible :)
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Getting my popcorn out for this one. Surprised we haven't heard a USS Arizona comment yet.
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The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:
(http://aebillingsolutions.com/luckygatorhead/SP/30.JPG)
Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?
I like that one, very nice! You don't happen to have that layout in some sort of format I could manipulate by chance, do you?
I am trying to figure out what the two orange buttons are? Left and right mouse, maybe?
Is that four 4-way joysticks and one 8-way and a spot for a flight stick ya think?
Search the forums for "Space Paranoids". That's its control panel.
Getting my popcorn out for this one. Surprised we haven't heard a USS Arizona comment yet.
Too soon, bro. Too soon.
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Getting my popcorn out for this one. Surprised we haven't heard a USS Arizona comment yet.
Actually, you're right, I'm not a fan of the shape at all, but I wanted the OP to see what a four button P3/P4 setup looks like.
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Getting my popcorn out for this one. Surprised we haven't heard a USS Arizona comment yet.
Actually, you're right, I'm not a fan of the shape at all, but I wanted the OP to see what a four button P3/P4 setup looks like.
Agreed, I like the layout, the joystick orientation (I am learning!), and am opening up to the idea of 4 buttons for P3 and P4 :)
Don't love the shape either but am very glad he posted it for the visual of the rest of it!
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Agreed, I like the layout, the joystick orientation (I am learning!), and am opening up to the idea of 4 buttons for P3 and P4 :)
Don't love the shape either but am very glad he posted it for the visual of the rest of it!
Glad I could be of help. Actually, if I were building a four-player panel, I would go with the classic Konami 4-player shape. I like it as opposed to the larger angled panels:
(http://www.arcade-museum.com/images/118/1181242182141.jpg)
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Getting my popcorn out for this one. Surprised we haven't heard a USS Arizona comment yet.
Actually, you're right, I'm not a fan of the shape at all, but I wanted the OP to see what a four button P3/P4 setup looks like.
Agreed, I like the layout, the joystick orientation (I am learning!), and am opening up to the idea of 4 buttons for P3 and P4 :)
Don't love the shape either but am very glad he posted it for the visual of the rest of it!
I was commenting on the OP and original thread, not yours yotsuya. I get my popcorn out everytime i see a "hows my cp?" thread. You never know what adventure your going to head down on these!
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You will never get four people to play your MAME cabinet at once no matter how much you beg.
Ever.
---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. Here's proof:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136188.0;attach=301284)
I stepped back from this game for a few seconds to snap this pic... Because I knew it'd never happen again. :laugh2:
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I changed the orientation of the joysticks.
Any particular issue with having the trackball down that low?
Thanks again!
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Still gonna stick with 6 buttons for P3/P4?
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---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. Here's proof:
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136188.0;attach=301284)
I stepped back from this game for a few seconds to snap this pic... Because I knew it'd never happen again. :laugh2:
Your buddy on the far left shouldn't of been allowed into the Halloween party without a costume! :lol
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I know that 6 admin buttons is kind of a crazy amount and am open to less but I read somewhere that (Enter, Pause, Left Mouse, Right Mouse, F2, and Escape might be worth considering)
Pretty sure that 6 admin buttons is overkill.
What emulators/FE are you planning on running?
Install and configure the emulators/FE before you decide on which admin buttons you need and want.
Escape and Pause are definitely a good idea IMHO.
You probably won't need Enter, mouse buttons, or F2. :dunno
Scott
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He had one. He was dressed as an inmate in an orange jump suit. Gaming was so intense, he got hot and had to take off his costume.
The first part of the last sentence was a lie. ;)
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A lot of people dont realize the arm positions when designing and building these panels.
For example... do you want your arm hitting another joystick? Or resting on buttons? Do you want to reach deeply into a control panel... uncomfortably stretching for long periods of time? If you roll your trackball hard.. do you want your hand to smack into the nearest joystick or even the monitor glass?
By using intelligent placement, you can solve a lot of these problems. Heres some examples...
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133856.0;attach=294537)
Key:
Edited Image shows various arm placements. Green is good. Red & Pink show issues with arms intersecting other controllers... or other comfort / playability issues. Black circle, shows optimal safety distance for trackball use. Its far better to offset the trackball next to the left players low-height buttons... than to keep it centered... where you are more apt to smash into the 2nd players joystick.
Notes: For the hand drawn pic... This was made for someone who was asking to have Asteriods Deluxe button layout.. as well as all the other controllers. In this case, there was one compromise, which was that if the spinner was used... player had to rest on some buttons. However, its not a bad compromise, considering the original layout design, which was plagued with comfort and playability issues.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133856.msg1379612.html#msg1379612 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133856.msg1379612.html#msg1379612)
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A lot of people dont realize the arm positions when designing and building these panels.
For example... do you want your arm hitting another joystick? Or resting on buttons? Do you want to reach deeply into a control panel... uncomfortably stretching for long periods of time? If you roll your trackball hard.. do you want your hand to smack into the nearest joystick or even the monitor glass?
By using intelligent placement, you can solve a lot of these problems. Heres some examples...
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=133856.0;attach=294537)
Key:
Edited Image shows various arm placements. Green is good. Red & Pink show issues with arms intersecting other controllers... or other comfort / playability issues. Black circle, shows optimal safety distance for trackball use. Its far better to offset the trackball next to the left players low-height buttons... than to keep it centered... where you are more apt to smash into the 2nd players joystick.
Notes: For the hand drawn pic... This was made for someone who was asking to have Asteriods Deluxe button layout.. as well as all the other controllers. In this case, there was one compromise, which was that if the spinner was used... player had to rest on some buttons. However, its not a bad compromise, considering the original layout design, which was plagued with comfort and playability issues.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133856.msg1379612.html#msg1379612 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133856.msg1379612.html#msg1379612)
Great thoughts, makes sense to me. Jamming into player 2's joystick would probably not feel very good. How's this?
Edit: Oops, posted the wrong pic initially but I fixed it now, sorry
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I know that 6 admin buttons is kind of a crazy amount and am open to less but I read somewhere that (Enter, Pause, Left Mouse, Right Mouse, F2, and Escape might be worth considering)
Pretty sure that 6 admin buttons is overkill.
What emulators/FE are you planning on running?
Install and configure the emulators/FE before you decide on which admin buttons you need and want.
Escape and Pause are definitely a good idea IMHO.
You probably won't need Enter, mouse buttons, or F2. :dunno
Scott
Honestly, I am not certain which emulators I am going to run yet, so I was thinking overkill just to be safe......seems to be a consensus that the overkill is definitely just that though, so I am definitely listening.
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(http://www.bravewords.com/static/medias/images/news/162709.jpg)
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Ah man. Overkill. Back in high school, buddy of mine had a 1950 Chevy pickup. He also had a pair of 4' peavey speaker stacks. We would drop those speakers in the back of his truck, wire up an amp, and look Overkill's awesome album "F*** You" as we cruised downtown Prescott.
Good times, good times.
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Meh, keep the trackball centered. The only games where your hand is flying past it (golf and bowling), you're not going at it sideways.
You've already got more clearance than an x-arcade tankstick. I have one of those and have never had anyone hit the joysticks.
That design does keep the trackball more in-line with the joysticks, where you have it farther forward.
Personally, I think you're right to want more clearance in front of it than to the sides.
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Meh, keep the trackball centered. The only games where your hand is flying past it (golf and bowling), you're not going at it sideways.
You've already got more clearance than an x-arcade tankstick. I have one of those and have never had anyone hit the joysticks.
That design does keep the trackball more in-line with the joysticks, where you have it farther forward.
Personally, I think you're right to want more clearance in front of it than to the sides.
+1. Also, are you still keeping 6 buttons on P3/P4?
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Meh, keep the trackball centered. The only games where your hand is flying past it (golf and bowling), you're not going at it sideways.
You've already got more clearance than an x-arcade tankstick. I have one of those and have never had anyone hit the joysticks.
That design does keep the trackball more in-line with the joysticks, where you have it farther forward.
Personally, I think you're right to want more clearance in front of it than to the sides.
+1. Also, are you still keeping 6 buttons on P3/P4?
Probably not (just didn't have time to Photoshop it yet). If people that have been at it this long think there is no reason for it I am smart enough to listen
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Meh, keep the trackball centered. The only games where your hand is flying past it (golf and bowling), you're not going at it sideways.
You've already got more clearance than an x-arcade tankstick. I have one of those and have never had anyone hit the joysticks.
That design does keep the trackball more in-line with the joysticks, where you have it farther forward.
Personally, I think you're right to want more clearance in front of it than to the sides.
I will lay it all out on a practice panel and see how it all looks and feels.
Not sure what I will end up doing until I can feel it but I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and ideas
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I want to commend you, Bobglib1. :cheers:
Obviously, it's your cab and you can do what you want. But a lot of us speak from experience, have physically done the research, have tried and failed, and just enjoy seeing seeing well-made projects. We're not crotchety arcade old-timers stuck in the 80s who insist that things need to be done a certain way, as some who come here and fling this accusation towards us when we point out mistakes (in our honest, well-tested opinions) they've made. I'm glad you're seeing our constructive criticism and advice for exactly what it is.
If we can be of any help, just ask. Ultimately, it's your cab- we want to help you raise the bar with it! :applaud:
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I want to commend you, Bobglib1. :cheers:
Obviously, it's your cab and you can do what you want. But a lot of us speak from experience, have physically done the research, have tried and failed, and just enjoy seeing seeing well-made projects. We're not crotchety arcade old-timers stuck in the 80s who insist that things need to be done a certain way, as some who come here and fling this accusation towards us when we point out mistakes (in our honest, well-tested opinions) they've made. I'm glad you're seeing our constructive criticism and advice for exactly what it is.
If we can be of any help, just ask. Ultimately, it's your cab- we want to help you raise the bar with it! :applaud:
Thanks! This is definitely my kind of place!
I genuinely appreciate the experience and advice and it is why I am posting here. I have soooooooooo many questions that I haven't even STARTED researching yet, so these direct answers to my questions are absolutely invaluable! I don't care if I agree or disagree with any idea expressed I just love hearing the ideas!
Once it comes time to build the panel I would like to make my decisions based on my opinions of what I know and not just because I don't know any better. If I do something that someone else does not like in my cabinet I won't mind at all, no problem BUT if I do something in a way that makes it not as functional or fun out of ignorance I will be a bit frustrated.
ALTHOUGH I have already decided to be happy with whatever I do because I KNOW there will be a million ways it can be better about 5 minutes after I am done, lol
:cheers:
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ALTHOUGH I have already decided to be happy with whatever I do because I KNOW there will be a million ways it can be better about 5 minutes after I am done, lol
And that is why this is a hobby and not just a singular project. No matter how awesome your first build it, there are "tweaks" that you will want to do. Eventually you will want to build another cab. Maybe a cocktail for the corner. Now you need a jukebox. Shortly afterwards you realize that MAME was nothing but a gateway drug and you want the real thing and start trawling Craigslist for a real cab with authentic boards. Before you know it, you are up to your armpits in monitor technical manuals, solder braid, and T-Molding.
Then you slowly turn your head and see your wife leaning against the door jam of the garage, shaking her head and quietly laughing. Not with you, but AT you.
Welcome to the fold, the kool-aid is in the corner.
Mua-ha-ha-ha!!! >:D
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ALTHOUGH I have already decided to be happy with whatever I do because I KNOW there will be a million ways it can be better about 5 minutes after I am done, lol
And that is why this is a hobby and not just a singular project. No matter how awesome your first build it, there are "tweaks" that you will want to do. Eventually you will want to build another cab. Maybe a cocktail for the corner. Now you need a jukebox. Shortly afterwards you realize that MAME was nothing but a gateway drug and you want the real thing and start trawling Craigslist for a real cab with authentic boards. Before you know it, you are up to your armpits in monitor technical manuals, solder braid, and T-Molding.
Then you slowly turn your head and see your wife leaning against the door jam of the garage, shaking her head and quietly laughing. Not with you, but AT you.
Welcome to the fold, the kool-aid is in the corner.
Mua-ha-ha-ha!!! >:D
My wife is already shaking her head and laughing at me, so I am almost there 8)
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My wife is already shaking her head and laughing at me, so I am almost there 8)
My wife gave up. I went from a single MAME cabinet build in the Summer of 2010 to an 11 game family room arcade that gets its debut on Saturday! :cheers:
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My wife is already shaking her head and laughing at me, so I am almost there 8)
My wife gave up. I went from a single MAME cabinet build in the Summer of 2010 to an 11 game family room arcade that gets its debut on Saturday! :cheers:
I can already tell you that the Jukebox idea definitely made my ears perk up :)
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My jukebox is my favorite thing in my gameroom. It's on every day.
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Hello everyone, this is Bobgilb1's brother.
He recently drug me (quite willingly, I admit) into this newest project of his, and I just want to ditto the appreciation of the feedback and willingness to share your experiences. Although I am sure we will make many mistakes along the way, I am also sure we will avoid many more by heeding the advice given here. We will be working on our cabinets separately sometimes (we lives several hours apart) we will also be working together when upcoming holiday travel allows too. This is a project that I think we both have considered at times in the past and I think seeing one in person recently has finally driven him over the edge!
This being said, I think the last "hey do you want to do this with me?" I agreed to ended up involving ice fishing in northern Wisconsin, so hopefully this project won't involve -40 deg temperatures...
Thanks again!
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Welcome aboard, you two! :cheers:
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I am aware that player’s 3 and 4 probably don’t need 6 buttons but I am a bit OCD and like them all to match :laugh:
Kaneda? Is that you?
Just chiming in late, to confirm, no it's not me :)
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You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up getting those magsticks. P3 and p4 will never need 4way sticks, and they suck...
Is this the opinion of the group in general? Should I have gone with a different type of joystick than the "Mag-Stick Plus"?
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You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up getting those magsticks. P3 and p4 will never need 4way sticks, and they suck...
Is this the opinion of the group in general? Should I have gone with a different type of joystick than the "Mag-Stick Plus"?
What types of games will you be playing the most? Lots of people go more dedicated 8-way sticks for players 1-4 and then a 4-way stick for the older games. But I have no clue which sticks are the best. I went with Happ Competition sticks since I play a lot of fighting games. Some people love that stick, some hate it...but it's what most SF players prefer.
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You ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up getting those magsticks. P3 and p4 will never need 4way sticks, and they suck...
Is this the opinion of the group in general? Should I have gone with a different type of joystick than the "Mag-Stick Plus"?
Either U360s or easily switchable JLWs like the Servostick or GGG's manual equivalent (omnisomething). That's me though.
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I've tried a fairly wide variety of sticks, but never the Mag Sticks?
What's the deal with them? Magnetic centering too weak or feel weird?
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Either U360s or easily switchable JLWs like the Servostick or GGG's manual equivalent (omnisomething). That's me though.
@bobglib - you are a rare breed to take constructive criticism so well, you are most welcomed. Remember, all in all, its yours and yours alone. Do what you want and whatever makes you happy. :cheers:
@neph - +1 - I have servostiks and it is SOOOO nice to have this part automated as it ended up being frustrating to have to manually switch from 4 to 8 so much that I just gave up and would skip over any game that wasn't 4 way when I was set to 4 way. This is a subtle feature that I think is a must now; especially with casual players playing, trying to explain to them how to change the stick is annoying or having to baby monitor them to do it for them so they dont rip out your wiring...
@yotsuya - got any pics of that gameroom now? Would love to see it.
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@yotsuya - got any pics of that gameroom now? Would love to see it.
I plan to shoot some now and during the party. I'll make a thread and post it soon.
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Honestly, when I was purchasing the Mag StikPlus joysticks I thought they were the highest end you could get for switching form 4 to 8 and TOTALLY overlooked the ServoStik on Ultimarc's website
Not sure how to go about switching my order to ServoStiks (I think my order has already shipped) but I definitely would like to.
Edit: Do the control panels to run the ServoStiks come with the joysticks or is it a board I have to buy separate? I am not clear from Ultimarc's website, thanks!
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@yotsuya - got any pics of that gameroom now? Would love to see it.
I plan to shoot some now and during the party. I'll make a thread and post it soon.
(https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5465149952/hF963EFD8/)
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Sorry, co-workers only. You're in charge of the Phoenix Meat-Up!
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Meat-Up!
I don't want to know.
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Meat-Up!
I don't want to know.
What happens at the Meat-Up stays at the Meat-Up.
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What happens at the Meat-Up stays at the Meat-Up.
I think I am glad about that
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If I end up having to purchase 15/32" MDO (can't find 5/8") would that be too thin for my control panel ya think?
I guess I would then buy 1/4" plexiglass to get as close to 3/4" as possible overall?
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If I end up having to purchase 15/32" MDO (can't find 5/8") would that be too thin for my control panel ya think?
I guess I would then buy 1/4" plexiglass to get as close to 3/4" as possible overall?
Just use 3/4 MDF with thinner plexi and either round the bottom edge with a sander or use a router to remove a little off the underside all the way around the perimeter. Nobody will ever notice. The plexi just lays on top the mdf, so it doesn't need to be thick.
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If I end up having to purchase 15/32" MDO (can't find 5/8") would that be too thin for my control panel ya think?
I guess I would then buy 1/4" plexiglass to get as close to 3/4" as possible overall?
Just use 3/4 MDF with thinner plexi and either round the bottom edge with a sander or use a router to remove a little off the underside all the way around the perimeter. Nobody will ever notice. The plexi just lays on top the mdf, so it doesn't need to be thick.
As usual, that does make sense :)
Looks like 1/16" plexi is the thinnest I can find off hand
New plan = 3/4" plywood with 1/16" plexi......sound good?
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If I end up having to purchase 15/32" MDO (can't find 5/8") would that be too thin for my control panel ya think?
I guess I would then buy 1/4" plexiglass to get as close to 3/4" as possible overall?
Just use 3/4 MDF with thinner plexi and either round the bottom edge with a sander or use a router to remove a little off the underside all the way around the perimeter. Nobody will ever notice. The plexi just lays on top the mdf, so it doesn't need to be thick.
As usual, that does make sense :)
Looks like 1/16" plexi is the thinnest I can find off hand
New plan = 3/4" plywood with 1/16" plexi......sound good?
1/16 should be fine, just don't overtighten the buttons or it might crack.
If you went with 1/8" and were planning on black or white t-molding, you could go with 11/16" molding.
http://www.t-molding.com/store/home.php?cat=23 (http://www.t-molding.com/store/home.php?cat=23)
You could also go with the thinner plexi and let the extra 1/16" hang off the bottom.
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If I end up having to purchase 15/32" MDO (can't find 5/8") would that be too thin for my control panel ya think?
I guess I would then buy 1/4" plexiglass to get as close to 3/4" as possible overall?
Just use 3/4 MDF with thinner plexi and either round the bottom edge with a sander or use a router to remove a little off the underside all the way around the perimeter. Nobody will ever notice. The plexi just lays on top the mdf, so it doesn't need to be thick.
As usual, that does make sense :)
Looks like 1/16" plexi is the thinnest I can find off hand
New plan = 3/4" plywood with 1/16" plexi......sound good?
1/16 should be fine, just don't overtighten the buttons or it might crack.
If you went with 1/8" and were planning on black or white t-molding, you could go with 11/16" molding.
http://www.t-molding.com/store/home.php?cat=23 (http://www.t-molding.com/store/home.php?cat=23)
You could also go with the thinner plexi and let the extra 1/16" hang off the bottom.
The advantage of the 1/8" over the 1/16" plexi would be that it would be able to handle a bit more tightening without cracking?
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Meat-Up!
I don't want to know.
Reading this just now in bed on my ipad, laughed so hard and loud the girlfriend woke up and hit me. Hard.
Have I been here long enough to give my 2¢?
No? Pffft whatever, I'm doing it anyway....
Bob, can I call you Bob? ...I'm just gonna call you Bob.
Bob, don't listen to these crazies when it comes to the buttons. ESPECIALY if you plan on going heavy with the console games. Think, how many buttons would you need to play 4-player GoldenEye 64 properly? Honestly, now that I'm getting into the thick of it I kinda wish I'd had put 6 buttons on my P3/4 spots. The 6 admin is a little over the norm, but the way I look at this all, is I'd rather have them then not. Mind you I'm also spending a small fortune on custom wire harnesses and RGB LED lights for all buttons and sticks. But hey, I'm a little eccentric.
The key here is: put what you want on it if YOU feel you need it. Learn from some of the best practices (like the stick orientation thing) and make it your own.
I'm also using the "Space Parinoids" CP. Heavily modified of course. Something about that "aircraft carrier" shape just seems to fit a good 4 player machine.
Oh yeah, and about that MDO, I tried looking for some here. That and MDX, couldn't find it anywhere. Tried every independent lumber shop in town. It's almost like its only made in certain global markets. Whatever, paint I guess
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The advantage of the 1/8" over the 1/16" plexi would be that it would be able to handle a bit more tightening without cracking?
Probably not much difference in that respect.
Ignore that last post. I was doing some horrible math there and thinking 11/16" t-molding came out even. :dizzy:
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If I may offer a conterpoint to Chance's post, try playing a N64 game with a joystick and six arcade buttons, then tell me if you prefer that to a regular controller.
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If I may offer a conterpoint to Chance's post...
No, you may not.
;D
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Marble Madness. While most times you might be rolling the ball at a diagonal or down.. there are times when you roll it sideways. There are also other trackball games where you would roll it sideways.. and future games, in which you might want to play.. which also utilize sideway rolling.
Many people dial up the trackball sensitivity, and so a small amount of roll.. will result in a high character movement in mame. The problem with this... is that its not correct. It makes the games easier than intended.. too easy. You also lose fine control, like a razor vs a shovel... so in games which require both precision, as well as speed.. you will suffer bad results on the precision control areas / aspects.
Its also another aspect of mame that Should be attempted to document and clarify. Documenting the encoder wheel diameter, trackballs roller diameter, ball size, and optical board signal rates.. and then with use of formulas, one could make a program which calibrates the controller to match the correct input ranges.
It might even be easier than that. Even if its a simple rough estimate for temp sake... by using several on the fly created comparison videos of a real machine, and a mame machine.
As for the buttons on the 3 / 4 players. Do a mock up mounting on a few sheets of cardboard stacked together. Make sure that the angle of the buttons feels comfortable with the stance you will need to take. (Utilize the stick at the same time as well, to make sure of distances and help with accurate results in the button tests)
Also, I agree with the recent post. If you are planning to play console games that use more than 4 buttons.. and you do not mind making the control panel a little wider.. do it. This is about your happiness.. not trying to please the cabnazi's. Theres never a way to please everyone else... so dont bother. Do what pleases you, for you.
Note, that if you lose your 4ways.. games like MsPacman wont play very good. Physical restriction is a completely different experience... and its far better than spacer flip sticks or virtual restriction. Nothing comes close. If you dont play 4way games much, and do not care about losing lives quicker.. then its another story.
If you want to play games like Asteroids Deluxe.. you may consider putting at lease one real leafswitch button on there. These are great for rapidfire games, as you wont get as fatigued as when you try with microswitches. The new hybrid micro-leafs are better than micros for less effort + reaction speed.. but they still wont feel nor be less fatiguing than a real classic leafswitch.
If you want to play Robotron.. you would want two real wico 8 way leafswitches. IMO, nothing else can match their performance and feel, for this game. Leaf sticks also feel better for older classics games. They do not work very good for fighters however.
A spinner is a must IMO. Otherwise you lose out on some excellent games. You can also use a spinner to control driving games. You can put a pedal set as the base of the cabinet too. Also, you can mount a spinner horizontally, like a volume knob... (in the front of the CP face) though, I do not think anyone here has done so yet.
A trigger stick or button topped stick, would complement the spinner... and allow many of the dual controller games, such as Tron, and Mad Planets... among many more. Mad Planets alone is worth it, IMO.
If you play Virtual Pinball.. you may want to add an analog plunger, and internal bump sensor.
If you want some cool effect.. pop a few bass-shakers in there. Similar to a subwoofer.. but they do not move air. Instead, they just take the sounds, and turn the mid to lower bass / sub frequencies into direct vibrations.
Comfort Ideas.. One thing I plan on doing, is adding a set of fans that blow air over the players hands.. to keep them sweat free. Possible under CP using angle drilled holes.. Possible small protruding vent hoods. And Or possibly in the panels backplate.. which could have a row of them.
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If I may offer a conterpoint to Chance's post, try playing a N64 game with a joystick and six arcade buttons, then tell me if you prefer that to a regular controller.
Yeah, 64 emulation is no bueno with arcade controls.
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If I may offer a conterpoint to Chance's post, try playing a N64 game with a joystick and six arcade buttons, then tell me if you prefer that to a regular controller.
Yeah, 64 emulation is no bueno with arcade controls.
I've gotta agree with these fine gentlemen, and this is coming from someone that had high hopes of playing N64 on my old cab. I played a few games and overall the buttons were just a nightmare... you've got the A, B & Z buttons, then all the yellow directionals, then the shoulder buttons... that's 9 not including the start button or D-pad.
I still plan on playing N64 on my new cab, but it's going to be using actual controllers hooked up via USB.
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Also, I agree with the recent post. If you are planning to play console games that use more than 4 buttons.. and you do not mind making the control panel a little wider.. do it. This is about your happiness.. not trying to please the cabnazi's. Theres never a way to please everyone else... so dont bother. Do what pleases you, for you.
Ja, weil die Anzahl der Schaltflächen auf seinem Taxi nur im Kopf so viel wiegt. Auch ficken Sie und Ihre Nazi-Vergleiche, Xiaou2. Wir sprechen aus Erfahrung.
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If I may offer a conterpoint to Chance's post, try playing a N64 game with a joystick and six arcade buttons, then tell me if you prefer that to a regular controller.
Yeah, 64 emulation is no bueno with arcade controls.
I've gotta agree with these fine gentlemen, and this is coming from someone that had high hopes of playing N64 on my old cab. I played a few games and overall the buttons were just a nightmare... you've got the A, B & Z buttons, then all the yellow directionals, then the shoulder buttons... that's 9 not including the start button or D-pad.
I still plan on playing N64 on my new cab, but it's going to be using actual controllers hooked up via USB.
This. This. This. So much this.
No one's pulling opinions out of their ---uvulas---. It's been tested, tried, and ultimately rejected by many of us here. But do what you want. We CabNazis need to go plan to annex the Rhine or something like that.
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:laugh2:
This thread is just getting better.
My next cab I'm putting ten TWELVE buttons for each player on a P4 CP. Half a dozen sticks, two spinners, three trackballs, pinball controls, AND 8 ADMIN BUTTONS!
/EvilLaugh
(At this exact moment Bryan or Susan over at PA just found a penny on the ground and thought nothing of it...)
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You do that.
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The servostick can be purchased via the whole thing (Servostik), or just a conversion kit (Servostik Upgrade Kit). You still need the ServoStik control board to power per 2.
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No one's pulling opinions out of their ---uvulas---. It's been tested, tried, and ultimately rejected by many of us here. But do what you want. We CabNazis need to go plan to annex the Rhine or something like that.
I never cared for the N64. I prefer 2d games, with high detail and a level of difficulty.. over flat 3d low poloy count games, that are so easy you could almost beat them blindfolded while knitting a vulgar sweater for PBJ.
But as said, its really up to him what he wants on his Pizza.
I like Mad Planets, so a trigger stick & spinner are being added. Nobody will talk me down from that, because In their eyes... "Trigger Sticks look bad on control panels".
You shouldnt take offense to others opinions, nor should you try to force others to do / like the same things you like / do.
Now.. the question still stands... Are there any console games that use more than 2 players, have more than 4 buttons.. and work well on arcade controllers? There probably are some that do.
Its like that guy whom added 4 steering wheels to his cab to play some certain console racing game. Others couldnt get over the look.. but Im sure he, and his family & friends had a lot of fun using them.
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You shouldnt take offense to others opinions, nor should you try to force others to do / like the same things you like / do.
The title of this thread is "Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts".
He asked for thoughts. We've shared our thoughts. With evidence based on experience. Stop acting like we're the BYOAC Gestapo going around provoking newbies.
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No need to fight, gents! Although I do still gain knowledge and insight from the back and forth :)
I asked for thoughts and I am getting them, perfect......keep them coming!
Buying some MDO this weekend and will have more updates then.
I received my Mag Stik Plus joysticks and am researching/reading/trying to decide what I am going to do.
Thanks again!
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We were fighting?
...did, did I win? ???
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We were fighting?
...did, did I win? ???
When Xiaou gets involved in the argument, no one wins.
Conversely,
(http://www.sixprizes.com/wp-content/uploads/a_winner_is_you_1024.jpg)
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I believe in "to each their own" when it comes to this, so do what you want, but please hear my experience on the console topic:
1. Sure, you can use a 6button layout and 8way to play SNES, but playing without triggers, games will leave your hands cramped and locked in a way that resembles cerebral palsy. You'll never feel it plays good since the buttons aren't triggers. Imagine holding the upper right button while tapping the 3rd button and the upper left button at the same time. Enjoy that.
2. Sure, you can use 9 buttons, an 8 way joystick and a digital joystick and play Goldeneye 64 on an arcade or some other terrible combination of buttons to resemble a modern controller. It will feel about as awesome as playing Metroid with a power glove.
My advice, build your CP for the arcade, like the arcade. It will play the best and look the best. It will be the easiest to use and the most intuitive. Install USB adapters and use a gamepad for anything else (with the small exception of NES games, which do play nicely with said arcade layout).
That being said, many people have thought really far outside the box and built things that truly are awesome and some end up being "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Don't think that if you want to do something different it is a failure, it's only a failure when you realize it didn't work, but hey, at least you tried.
In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden hose reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it. I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.
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In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden house reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it. I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.
If you only knew..... :laugh2:
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In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden house reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it. I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.
If you only knew..... :laugh2:
I do know... :o
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We were fighting?
...did, did I win? ???
I was joking.....but YES, you did win!
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In all seriousness, zanna5910, your post is well-though out and based on personal experience. Most of us that are saying, "Don't do it, you're not going to like it," have been in the same situation. It's constructive feedback that is rooted in evidence, which is more than "Do what you want, brother, and be happy" is.
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I believe in "to each their own" when it comes to this, so do what you want, but please hear my experience on the console topic:
1. Sure, you can use a 6button layout and 8way to play SNES, but playing without triggers, games will leave your hands cramped and locked in a way that resembles cerebral palsy. You'll never feel it plays good since the buttons aren't triggers. Imagine holding the upper right button while tapping the 3rd button and the upper left button at the same time. Enjoy that.
2. Sure, you can use 9 buttons, an 8 way joystick and a digital joystick and play Goldeneye 64 on an arcade or some other terrible combination of buttons to resemble a modern controller. It will feel about as awesome as playing Metroid with a power glove.
My advice, build your CP for the arcade, like the arcade. It will play the best and look the best. It will be the easiest to use and the most intuitive. Install USB adapters and use a gamepad for anything else (with the small exception of NES games, which do play nicely with said arcade layout).
That being said, many people have thought really far outside the box and built things that truly are awesome and some end up being "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Don't think that if you want to do something different it is a failure, it's only a failure when you realize it didn't work, but hey, at least you tried.
In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden hose reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it. I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.
I actually enjoyed playing SNES games on my arcade. A surprising amount of the games didn't really use the shoulder buttons (or if they did it was infrequent), so in many cases you're just dealing with 4 buttons... however games like Super Mario Kart or others that require frequently pressing/holding the the shoulder buttons are awkward. Again, it all comes down to preference, although I stand by my n64 comments since I really don't see a practical way of incorporating that many buttons and have it still be enjoyable and easy to use.
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In all seriousness, zanna5910, your post is well-though out and based on personal experience. Most of us that are saying, "Don't do it, you're not going to like it," have been in the same situation. It's constructive feedback that is rooted in evidence, which is more than "Do what you want, brother, and be happy" is.
Thanks bud. :cheers:
I actually enjoyed playing SNES games on my arcade. A surprising amount of the games didn't really use the shoulder buttons (or if they did it was infrequent), so in many cases you're just dealing with 4 buttons... however games like Super Mario Kart or others that require frequently pressing/holding the the shoulder buttons are awkward. Again, it all comes down to preference, although I stand by my n64 comments since I really don't see a practical way of incorporating that many buttons and have it still be enjoyable and easy to use.
I hear ya, me too. Its just a pain to explain one way for this game and one way for that game that and this button is x and this is left trigger and this is... uggg. I found it much easier to say, plug in the SNES controller to play SNES.
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Hello Bobgilb1,
I have not posted much, but after reading all these forum posts, I wanted to share my brief perspective on the number of buttons for the two outer players. I'm currently in planning stages on my cabinet, and I've decided to build a 4 player cabinet as well. All the build aside, I disagree with most people here regarding the number of buttons, and explain why. Of course, realize my situation is most likely different than yours is, but again, such is life. In my case, I am making a 4 player cabinet because I wanted to do something our family could all do together, that is fun, creates bonding time, and (except for initial cost), is something that will not have much extra expense added to it. My wife loves old arcade games, and of course, I grew up with a lot of them also. My kids also love the games, but I'm also a tech. junkie, of sorts. You mentioned you were in IT, so I'm guessing you have a decent computer, and that is why I post an opinion IN FAVOR of 6 buttons for each player. While I agree playing some console games via arcade controls, such as the N64 specifically, is basically a nightmare, it is a perfect setting for 4 player PC games. A perfect example is Street Fighter X Tekken. It is a really fun game, 4 players, and uses a 6 button layout. That is a game my kids and I play all the time, and it would be really unfair for two players to only have access to 2/3 of the buttons. Now, in truth, if you don't play that, or other similar PC games that use numerous buttons, (which there are some, but honestly, not too many to my knowledge), it probably is best to save the space, and not have them, as 4 player panels are still big, and saving several inches in width is a good thing. However, in MY specific case, after much consideration, there is no real alternative other than to have 6 buttons per player. Will they all get used all the time? No. However, when you need them and don't have them, you'll wish you did. :-) Just my thought on the matter.
p.s. Bob, if you haven't, and depending on your intention with it, I'd recommend checking out some PC games, there are quite a few good 4 player ones. In my own experience so far, I've found 39 4 player games I feel are appropriate for my kids, and are fun, and there are many more that are not "age-appropriate" for my kids.
BTW, I forget who posted that 4 simultaneous players will NEVER happen, it really depends on your circumstances. Since I'm making mine explicitly and intentionally for my family, I can tell you that, at least in my case, that statement is just not true. Even though the cabinet itself is not built yet, the software is mostly completed and tweaked, and I can tell you there are many nights we all sit down and play together, everything from a 1 player game, 2 players swapping a controller, or everyone having their own controller, it is a lot of fun. :)
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The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:
(http://aebillingsolutions.com/luckygatorhead/SP/30.JPG)
Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?
The link supplied in this thread for the plans of this control panel are no longer available (all the files). Anybody know where I could find them? There's not a lot of 4 players plans available as far as the search i've made :| Would like a 4 player layout + spinner + trackball
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The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:
(http://aebillingsolutions.com/luckygatorhead/SP/30.JPG)
Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?
The link supplied in this thread for the plans of this control panel are no longer available (all the files). Anybody know where I could find them? There's not a lot of 4 players plans available as far as the search i've made :| Would like a 4 player layout + spinner + trackball
That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout. The only thing I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.
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That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout.
Actually... Not so great. Arts pretty cool.. but try to reach that deep into the CP for extended periods of time..
Also, where do you place your arms to get to those sticks & controls? On the buttons... with your arm pressing into the other joysticks.
Very poor comfort and useability.
All they would have had to do... is place the top controllers diagonally to the left of the main sticks. They would be far less deep in the CP, and you wouldnt have to rest your arm on top of a set of buttons to use them.
The Trackball "Symmetry Bug", is also an issue. Anyone who plays a trackball game with any intensity... is going to smash their hands into the blue stick.
Had they moved the ball closer to the red buttons... there would have been far more room to sweep your hand around... without slamming into anything.
Im also not sure about the angles of the yellow buttons either...
I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.
Word.
However, Id have to say Robotron.. because Robotron is much more intense and gratifying. And either way... you really cant play
Robotron with those Happs Comps. You need real Wico 8way leafsticks to make it anywhere in that game. Partly due to the very long throw the Happs sticks have... and partly the fatigue from the microswitchs (and the associated long activation distances), as well as the hard slam that happens at the end of travel on fighter sticks. Gota love the Rubber Grommet on the Wico sticks, that keep that from happening...
Also, are there any leaf buttons on there? Id make a least the bottom button a leaf - for non autofire, rapid shot games.. such as Galaga, Asteroids Deluxe..etc. These games would fatigue you in mere minutes with a Microswitch. They also have that same "Slam into the CP" issue.. further effecting comfort and fatigue. Where as leafs have a wonderful buttery smooth bounce...
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That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout.
Actually... Not so great. Arts pretty cool.. but try to reach that deep into the CP for extended periods of time..
Also, where do you place your arms to get to those sticks & controls? On the buttons... with your arm pressing into the other joysticks.
Very poor comfort and useability.
All they would have had to do... is place the top controllers diagonally to the left of the main sticks. They would be far less deep in the CP, and you wouldnt have to rest your arm on top of a set of buttons to use them.
The Trackball "Symmetry Bug", is also an issue. Anyone who plays a trackball game with any intensity... is going to smash their hands into the blue stick.
Had they moved the ball closer to the red buttons... there would have been far more room to sweep your hand around... without slamming into anything.
Im also not sure about the angles of the yellow buttons either...
I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.
Word.
However, Id have to say Robotron.. because Robotron is much more intense and gratifying. And either way... you really cant play
Robotron with those Happs Comps. You need real Wico 8way leafsticks to make it anywhere in that game. Partly due to the very long throw the Happs sticks have... and partly the fatigue from the microswitchs (and the associated long activation distances), as well as the hard slam that happens at the end of travel on fighter sticks. Gota love the Rubber Grommet on the Wico sticks, that keep that from happening...
Also, are there any leaf buttons on there? Id make a least the bottom button a leaf - for non autofire, rapid shot games.. such as Galaga, Asteroids Deluxe..etc. These games would fatigue you in mere minutes with a Microswitch. They also have that same "Slam into the CP" issue.. further effecting comfort and fatigue. Where as leafs have a wonderful buttery smooth bounce...
Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s
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Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s
The best 4 player panel Ive ever used was on NBA Jam / Open Ice. The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers. I am making a 4 player panel, based on Open Ice, but with the sticks in a line, and the inner 2 players having the 7 button layout. No spinner, no trackball, no extra 4 way.
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Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s
Perfection is a statement based on personal preferences. Whats perfect for me, isnt perfect for you.
Furthermore, what I thought was perfect at one time... had changed when I became more educated. For example, learning the joy of real leaf switch buttons, true restricted 4ways, and the ultimate for Rototron (and many other classic games), real Wico 8way leaf joysticks) *(the new leaf based stuff people are making today, does NOT compare to the originals)
As you have said, you want Symmetry as a main feature... then me and you will differ right away. Because to me.. Id rather have comfort while playing... rather than for example, resting your arms on top of a bunch of other buttons / controllers. As well as the Trackball issue - where as you really need about 1ft diameter circle of free space surrounding it.. else you will probably smash your hands into a joystick... or something else. (Many people crank up the sensitivity of the trackball - so they dont have to roll as fast and hard... but that takes away the challenge, skill, feel, and is basically Cheating. Id rather not play a game, than to play a handicapped version of it... )
There are a few options Ive not listed... which could solve some of these issues.. such as a flip-out trackball assembly. Ive not yet built it, but its possible. Heck, even a slide out trackball setup would solve a lot of space issues, and be more easy to construct.
The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers.
The term is for Anal people who value looks over funciontality.. such as in your example, of a panel that plays a very limited spectrum of games. While you may have Other cabinets that play these other games... not everyone has the space, time, and money... to do the same.
There are many ways to cram a lot of controllers on a panel, without any loss of comfort or performance. Much like rearanging a room, it takes planning and sometimes some trial and error, to get things right.
Furthermore, you can make very large control panels, providing more comfort and space than found in the old arcade days. It may not be proportioned to look as nice... but your guest wont care, as they will enjoy the comfort and elbow room of the extra wide CP... as well as not having to rub sweaty bodies while playing.. for long periods of time.
Control panels can be rotated, having one one the bottom... or more than that... Can be vertical or horizontal in nature... such as a Pedestal that can be turned to the other side for alternate controls - saving the need to reach deep into the CP (which is very unconmfortable). And if you dont mind lugging out a 50lb CP every few games... and or have the space, time and extra money from additional encoders and artwork... then you can make swappable CPs. As well as the possible use of all or some of these methods in combination.
he thinks Hard Driving is the most realistic racing game ever made.
No. The more realistic ARCADE driver released - that including the most realistic and best performing CONTROLLERS.
A) The physical model of the game was designed by a car physics guy. The leading man in the business. And yes, the physics go all the way down to the actual TIRES of the car. See Jed's site for that mentioned...
You may have noticed that the Credit Screen lists Doug Milliken as a Test Driver. He is listed as a Test Driver because Atari didn't want anyone to know what he really did.
When we started Hard Drivin' we wanted it to be as accurate as possible. That meant doing an accurate car model to mathematically describe the physics of how the parts of the car (engine, transmission, springs, shock absorbers, tires, etc.) react to each other, to the road, and to the driver's inputs.
It also describes how the forces are transmitted back to the driver through the force-feedback steering wheel.
The pioneer in the field (in the 1950s) was William Milliken of Milliken Research. He son, Doug, has continued his father's work. Doug is probably the world's leading expert in car modeling. Doug and his father wrote the book on car modeling. And I mean that literally. (Go to Amazon.com and check out "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (R146)" by William F. Milliken, Douglas L. Milliken).
Doug is also a good friend of Max's.
We hired Doug as a consultant to develop the car model. At the time (1980s) most of the work in car modeling was done to look at how the different parts of the car worked together within certain narrow speed ranges.
Our car had to work at all speeds. The way the car works at high speed is different than at slow speeds, such as when you are stopped and just starting to roll.
Doug and Max worked together to develop a car model that smoothly and dynamically changes depending on the mode. (Doug and Max are the smartest people I know.)
Atari had us list Doug as a Test Driver because they didn't want anyone to know we were doing real car modeling.
The modeling is so good (along with the moving dashboard contributed by Erik Durfey) that some people swear the game has a powered moving seat.
BTW, the seat position sensor scales the force feedback in the steering wheel. Presumably, a young person will have the seat forward and will get less force, and an adult will have it further back and get more force.
The TMS34010 does not have floating point, so Max could only model the car as having two wheels.
For Race Drivin' I put an AT&T DSP32C on the DSK Board (DSK stands for Driver Speed Kit.) The DSP32C is faster than the TMS34010 and has floating point. Because Max wrote the Car Model in C he was able to port it to the DSP32C in an afternoon. After that, he was able to have it execute a car model with four wheels. It also has a faster update rate.
The difference is very apparent when you drive the Original Track in Race Drivin'.
Not many games went to this level of accuracy.. if ever. One fine day, Id managed to hit the large ramp at an odd angle. Somehow I think I clipped the edge of the landing ramp, but came off the ramp in a way that tilted the car vertically... thus I landed on the front tire or both tires on one side of the car. Rather than wreck.. the car started to spin around, bouncing from tires to tires, while at various vertical angles... eventually, it fell flat, and I was actually able to continue to drive away!
Race Drivin has a Force Feedback motor thats the size of an industrial machine. The diameter is close to that of a gallon can of paint, and is very heavy. The wheel, is the largest diameter wheel probably ever made for a racing game. And the actual wheel can spin 3 or more full rotations from furthest left to furthest right. The brake pedal has an actual pressure sensor, rather than just a typical pot. Unlike most games which used the same spring system for the gas.. on the brake as well... Race Drivin acutally used a different kind of compressible rubber system... that more closely mimics the feel of a brake pedal being used. The force is more stiff, and even when you press it nearly to the max travel... you then can continue to press is very hard with your leg, to continue to get the pressure sensor to register that force being applied. The pressure sensor is far more accurate than the typical pot values as well.. far exceeding the typical range. That said, Race Drivins wheel used what I beleve was a 10-turn pot. Again, far more accurate, with far greater range than the typical pots used in 99% of all arcade racers & even the majority of PC & gaming wheels. Some use optical spoked wheel sensors to get around this... however, as good as optical can be... its still not as linear and precise as an analog pot.
The Shifter is another marvel. Used two pots rather than a bunch of microswitches. Ive had to replace Daytona USA's crappy mini-micros at the arcade.. every other month. Where as RD's shifter was pretty much failproof. I replaced its pots like Once in its lifetime of use and abuse. It also felt far more smooth, realisitic, and locked into place with a great snapping force. It was easy to get into gears.. without any accidental fumbling. I believe it also has a gear lock mechanism (one I have, uses a large electromagnet) , so if you try to use it without pressing the clutch... it either makes it harder, or stops it from being possible. (Check games service menu for options)
The seat also was locked in place with a powerful electromagnet. Depending on the seat distance.. the force of the feedback was scaled up or down. There was also option in the service menu, to crank the thing up to crazy levels of power. You could have taped a small kid to the wheel.. and had him spin around.. if the seat was back far enough.
It was also one of the only games that you needed to actually start the car correctly.. being in correct gear, with some gas, I think the clutch needed to be down too.. if using manual, and then turning the Key. Fail to do that, or do it poorly... and the car wouldnt start up and go.. and or would stall out.
Please name another arcade racer that went to that level of realism and control accuracy...
And or, please find another pedal and wheel set that can be used with the most modern consoles.. that matches all of those specs... and as a bonus, could withstand the abuse of kids in a busy arcade for years on end.
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Btw - I want to add, that the need for absolute symmetry on a CP is OCD Madness.
Is your cars dash and control devices, symmetrical?
How about an Airplane's controls?
By the definition, you are driving around in your car, using a franken panel.
But the reality is that controls are designed for comfort, precision control, safety, and lasting durability.
Cars controls do not Need to be symmetrical. But they do Need to be useful, accurate, and comfortable.
Its pretty much the same thing with game controllers.
Function & Comfort, over look.
Heck, even the most expensive supercars still use non-symmetrical designs.. and internally are not exactly "Peacefully Zen-Like", or Artistic masterpieces.
And even the most Artistic cabinets, are neither Symmetrical, nor non-tacky.. in the "adult Living-Room" sense. (It would be hard to make any cabinet fit that description anyways.. ) See: Discs of Tron Environmental, for incredible artistic value... maybe the most artistry ever worked into an arcade cab.
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I prefer functionality over having too many controls on one panel. Yes, there have been some well made functional frankenpanels, but they are more of the exception than the rule. My panel WILL be limited, I'll only be able to play about 95% of MAME's games (excluding the mahjong titles) . I would suggest the OP figure out all the games he thinks he'll play then figure out controls based around that. I feel its better to pick out controls based on what you want to play rather than figure out what can you play with the controls you picked.
EDIT: self imposed thread clean up
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Ugh, ::) Unsubscribed
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Ugh, ::) Unsubscribed
yeah , I gotta stop takin the tardbait.
If I ever finish up my 4player panel, I'll post up some real specs. It'll be far from perfect but it'll be very functional. Art here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138619.msg1436534.html#msg1436534 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138619.msg1436534.html#msg1436534)
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I prefer functionality over having too many controls on one panel. Yes, there have been some well made functional frankenpanels, but they are more of the exception than the rule. My panel WILL be limited, I'll only be able to play about 95% of MAME's games. The fact you think that you need multiple encoders for swap-able panels is a pretty good indicator you don't know how to make a swap-able panel.
So yes, you are Agreeing with me. There are ways to present multiple controllers, without functional problems. Thanks.
95% ? So what your saying, is that you actually did a count and percentiled them? Doubt it. But regardless, its not the percent that matters... its the games that you wish to actually Play that matters. In my opinion, if you cant play Mad Planets, then your cab is a waste of space. And if it cant play a 3 player game of Supersprint... then why even bother to turn it on? I may only play a handful of the 10 billion roms Mame supports.. but for these, I need the proper controls to do so. These games, usually the ones with specialty controllers.. give me the most satisfaction.. as they typically are the most challenging / intense , and thus the most rewarding.
As for Swappable panel assembly.. it may depend on what kinds of controls you use. For example, swapping an optical wheel panel 'live', might not be a good idea. This depends on the encoder you use, and the types of connectors you use. But nobody can deny... there is no good connector solution for swappable panels. Most of them are using very tedious, painful to craft, prone to breakage in a short timespan.. and or are very hard to connect / disconnect.
That doesnt even count the lack of good panel locking systems. Its not that I couldnt make one.. its just rare that Ive ever seen a good setup. Actually, I havent to date.
Still, all of this doesnt negate most of the points Ive made. You simply are arguing for the sake of arguing... because you simply are in Love with me, and cant handle my rejection of your affection.
Things you dont seem to know about real cars: You can start a real car with the shifter in any position, because you have to keep the clutch down to crank the engine. When the clutch is down the car is in neutral no matter what "gear" the shifter is in.
Slipped my mind. But then, I dont drive a stick.. and I didnt recall the game as its been a long time since last play. (The game did actually teach me how to use a stick however.. ) And then again, I dont have a robotic autistic photographic memory like you. Then again, Im a free-thinker, which means Im able to think outside of the box, rather than be a stale copying machine, like you.
Real Cars steering wheels rotate 900 degrees. (2 1/2 turns), 3 full rotations would be *less* realistic.
Citation: I drive a 5 speed every day.
Which is probably 900 degrees then. As said, memory is somewhat foggy. Then again.. no game until probably 2000 had a 900 degree wheel. And were they in an arcade machine? I dont think so. And if so... they were probably boring as heck anyways.
Please name another arcade racer that went to that level of realism and control accuracy...
And or, please find another pedal and wheel set that can be used with the most modern consoles.. that matches all of those specs... and as a bonus, could withstand the abuse of kids in a busy arcade for years on end.
Ok, more realistic arcade racers:
WEC Le Mans
Ferrari F355
Uhh, Wec Lemans hardly qualifies to beat Race Drivin in physics and control accuracy. Theres no 10-turn pot / 900 degree wheel. No reverse, no pressure sensitive brake. Its a simple 2d racer.
Ferrarri 355 was produced way after RD, is pretty much a Simulator. Its tracks are Boring... and its not Fun at all. It feels slow. And the force feedback is both Weak, and doesnt provide half the tactile experience that RD does. I played it Once... regretted it, and moved on.
It made so little money in the arcade it was put in... that it was shipped out in like a month or two time. Which is a very short time for Namco game shipment / rotations. Games can sit for years before being moved out.
The Race Drivin was still there however... earning steady cash.
Ok, a pedal/wheel set that matches all those specs? Fine the set up I have in my driving rig. Fanatec CSR Wheel and pedals. It doesn't rotate 1080 degrees though, its stuck being a realistic 900 degrees. No bonus though, not many home parts are designed with arcade in mind. The wheel/pedals work on PC, PS3, and xbox360. Firmware update will allegedly allow use on PS4 and XB1 but Im sure they'll prolly release a new set for the new consoles.
Umm, Lets try that in an Arcade format. List the games in the arcades that used that? Zero.
Even F355 looks to have basic pots and basic spring assemblies for the pedals. Its been too long since I played it, and at only one go.. I cant recall the feel. I do know that none of the controls felt as nice as RDs.
As for the Fanatec, the top end models have the loaded cell braking.. which again, is quite new.. and was not used in the arcades.
RD was the pinoneer in using pressure sensors in the braking assembly. WAY before commercialized high dollar PC sim equipment.
And even with that, the CSR cant even come close to the power the RD wheel has in its FFB... let alone its high quality durability.
But what your really angered about.. is the thought that Im trying to say that RD has better physics than modern PCs can produce.
Nope. Not at all. Im simply saying, that it was the Best Arcade sim style racing game. Best does not mean 1000% real. It also means, its one of the most fun and playable games as well.
Not like the boring F355, which feels like you are driving 30mph... on one of the most boring pieces of road ever laid out.
Quote from: Xiaou2 on Today at 02:08:26 pm
By the definition, you are driving around in your car, using a franken panel.
::) ??? ::) ???
How so? My car doesnt have the paddle shifters from a Ferrari, the wheel from a Supra, a german-spec 5 gear shifter with reverse to the left, a USA-spec 5 gear shifter with reverse under 5th gear, an autostick, etc,etc,etc
A frankenpanel is an amalgamation of other control panels, so even what you think a frankenpanel is seems to be misaligned with what everyone else defines it as. :afro:
The definition is open to interpretation. Its a panel that is somewhat chaotic and filled with controllers. It has nothing to do with the fact that they are all the correct controllers for what you are trying to control. An airplane cockpit, can easily be called a franekpanel.
(Most especially, based on mere bad looks.. which is what most people oppose in large muli-controller panels)
Btw - Almost seems like you are trying to brag about your 'stuff'. It really doesnt phase me in the least what you have or do or have done. Im not childish like you... and do not get jealous of other peoples things or accomplishments. In fact, Im happy for them being happy. I also do not value life by the amount of toys one has. Ive learned to be content with whatever I have, and to treasure the smallest things, such as lifes every breath. Often being very aware of each one I take, feeling it expand and contract and the rushing feeling of the air flowing in and out.
And for all of your negative and strained posts.. maybe you should take a long look at this yourself... because you seem like one of the most unhappy people in the room.. despite all of your high dollar toys. Hence the need to post a bunch of childish & useless garbage.
Btw - Im not one to trash others artistic works.. but because you have posted your opinions and judgements, as well as attacks / stalkings... Ill just state that if you think your cheesy vector hockey drawing is a work of art... you really are deluded.
But dont take my word for it. Go post your masterpiece in a few high level artists coves on the net, and brag about it there...
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Had a long drawn out reply, but meh, why waste the text? I'll nibble on the troll bait.
95% was a guesstimate, my panel should play roughly 100% of the games I care about. My Open Ice themed art is a raster, not a vector (PSD files are just Photoshop documents with all their layer data). It might not be super great, but its up there for anyone to download and edit. Hopefully it helps them get together art for their cabs. Ya know, making something and giving it to the community in an effort to help them. I liked F355 better than RD, but then again I like Cruisn USA more than RD. My racing set up cost less then $500 (including wheel, pedals, shifters, PC, and seat), not bragging one bit. Many people have spent far more than that on a single project. Also, all Fanatec brake pedals come with load cells. I think you looked up the price of a CSR elite set and not the more common CSR set. My wheel lacks the carbon fiber overlay. Got it to play PS3, PC, and xbox360 with a single piece of equipment, not to impress you.
Paul Olsen has done a pretty epic modular panel set up, including your precious 3 player super sprint http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139290.msg1440379.html#msg1440379 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139290.msg1440379.html#msg1440379)
Calling me autistic is sort of a low blow dontcha think? I'm already a ginger!
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(http://tisha70401.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/imagescao0rw7a1.jpg)