The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: Knievel on January 16, 2005, 01:47:56 pm
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Decided to post this in the main forum as it seems to be taking over my thread in Project Announcements. I came up with the idea while building my latest cab, see it here...http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,30538.0.html
I wanted lighted Wico leaf buttons and had yet to see anything that did it well.
In my quest I tried pretty much everything out there for lighting. Using fluorescent lights, cold cathode tubes and neon car lighting inside the CP box all proved less than dramatic. The best result was with an LED shining up at the button, but it was still pretty weak.
The idea I came up with was to get the LED/LED'S as close to the button as possible and this is what I came up with...
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/button1.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/button2.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/button3.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/button4.jpg)
You can see in these pics that I drilled a 3/16" hole through the center of the button holder to make a hole on either side to mount LED's in. The 3/16" bit is the perfect size for mounting the standard superbright LED's. It's a snug fit and won't require any other fastening.
If you have a drill press you can clamp the holder between 2 blocks of wood and drill down through it. If you don't then start the hole with a smaller bit and work your way up to the 3/16".
The results....
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/bcp2.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/leds1.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/leds2.jpg)
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/leds4.jpg)
Of course it's tough to get a good picture of a glowing button in the dark but the first photo is the most accurate one I took. You may think 2 LED's would be too bright and distracting but they're not. The buttons literally GLOW... they don't shine. This is because the LED's are pointed directly into the button housing/stem and are diffused. Another plus from this is that the whole thing glows, not just the pushbutton itself.
See my NEON MAME post in Project Announcements forum for more pics...and check out FLYERCADE too.
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Awesome Job Evil!
Where did you get the Leds?
Also, anyway I could get my hands on a copy of the CPO?
:)
bsoder52
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looks great!
are those buttons nos, or does wico still sell them? I couldnt find them in there catalog.
were did you get yours?
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They are still availiable from Wico. I bought mine from http://www.centsibleamusements.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=225[/url]
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thanks. I was about to place a order from them for coin door parts.
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I got mine straight from Wico...http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page87.htm
Some people have had issues ordering from them but I've never had a problem.
Got the LED's off eBay, think it was this seller...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=66948&item=3866786849&rd=1
Good luck!
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That looks awesome.
A word of warning for those who want to imitate. The holders used are the thick holders designed for metal panels. If you get the ones designed for wood, then you will have trouble drilling the hole.
The wood ones don't have a solid ring, but rather are "split" into two two thin rings of different diameters that sit on top of each other (visualize a small washer sitting on top of a big washer).
Since each "ring" is less than 3/16", you would have to drill through both to get this to work. And since the rings are different diameters, the drill bit would keep getting pushed to the side. It would be the same thing as trying to drill half a hole into the edge of a piece of wood.
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Thanks for adding that, I didn't know there was a difference.
I think if you were to clamp the holder pieces between 2 blocks of wood and then clamped that to a drill-press table you still might be able to make it work.
Getting a fair amount of e-mail on this. For those looking to copy this technique I used the following Wico parts for each button...
22-1040-16 2" Blue Transparent Button
22-1052 Button Holder Assy w/Switch
1160-092 Pal Nut (think I had to buy a min. quantity of these)
That link again...
http://www.wicothesource.com/new2/pages/page87.htm
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Are these the dark blue buttons or the light blue ones?
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btw, are you using one or two led's between each button?
And AMAZING job! I wish I could get my wiring to look that good!
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Scooter they are the readily available light-blue ones.
I managed to track down some of the dark blue and they didn't light up as well.
They did match better when they were turned off, but they never will be ;)
Lilwolf there's 2 LED's between the buttons, back to back. I wired those together to simplify things.
The LED's are all daisy-chained in parallel with the proper resistor for 12v supply on each one. Then they connect to a spare 12v(yellow+black)molex connector on the computer power supply. Very simple, no extra power source to worry about and they turn on/off with the computer.
BTW I experimented with 1 LED per button and they looked pretty good but 2 pointing at one another really does the job...3 made no difference.
On the NEON CP there's 2 LED's beneath the trackball as well.
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Hey Kneviel, would you be interested in writing out a tutorial on wiring LED's? I've forgotten most of what I once knew about resistance and current and stuff, but a lot of people here have no idea where to start for something like this. Perhaps you could just write a simple tutorial for lighting up a few LED's. Like tell what values of reistors to use and why to use those and how to wire it all to a power supply. Is this something you could do? A lot of people here would benefit from it.
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I 2nd that suggestion, if you have time.
I would go ahead and emulate this, but the wiring is over my head.
I wired my entire control panel no problem.
I have 2 coindoor lights with the lights in them (normally sold that way) and I can't get them wired up to a power supply even.
:(
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It's a good design, and I can say I may emulate it myself.
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Well guys I'm pretty busy at the moment but I think this tutorial about covers it...
http://www.lsdiodes.com/tutorial/
I went the Parallel route, if you're using a 12v supply you'll need a 470 ohm resistor for each LED. For the 12v you just connect the LED leads to the yellow and black wires of an unused Molex connector coming out of you computers power supply.
I would suggest buying the LED's off eBay from a seller who packages them together with the proper resistors. I just did a quick search and this one seems to have good quantities/prices....
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZaxioms1
If you have a specific question about the process just ask away.
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bsoder check this link to Retrobast, it explains coindoor lighting...
http://www.retroblast.com/articles/coindoor.html
Basically you're tapping into the 12v(yellow+black)wires from the PS, just like I did for the LED's.
Of course your bulbs should be 12v so there's no resistor required for those, just connect them directly.
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Did you use 3mm LEDs or 5mm?
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I used the 5mm, if you use the 3mm you'll need to use a smaller drill bit.
Forgot to mention the 'mcd' number refers to the brightness...should be 8-10k for the blues.
Like these...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3673&item=6736545927&rd=1
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Great idea! :D Anyway, for those of you who wanted it, LED tutorial. its pretty basic so when that site comes back online use it (it was offline when i went). A lot of this info is probably overkill but it doesn't hurt to know.
LED Basics
The Basic idea of a LED (Light emitting diode) is to block electricity flowing in one direction and also produce light. The Anode (longer leg) is universally positive, and the negative leg is the cathode. Voltage that can be passed through the LED depends on the specs, so i cannot tell you exactly, but i am guessing that most LEDs will take 12V. This is not to say run and buy a car battery and hook it into your cab! It really depends on the amps coming from the power source.
Amps & Coulombs
Amps are the unit for measuring how many electrons are moving past a single point. A coulomb is approximately 6.241506
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quick LED question for you guys:
Lets say I have a box full of LED's. None of them are marked. How do I determine what voltage and current each LED needs in order to light up properly without burning it out or something? Like is there anyway to determine the vital statistics of an LED if you don't have them?
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Even 1 superbright LED per button works well.
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Jakobud I'm no expert but I would connect a 1.5v(AA) battery to the LED leads, observing the correct polarity...
(http://members.shaw.ca/knievelgod/polarity.jpg)
First try a single AA and if you don't get any light then try 2 together. If a single doesn't produce any light it's likely a blue or white LED that requires a higher voltage.
You should get enough light to determine the color. Then you'll know the voltage you need. From what I've read....
Red and green need 2 volts
Blue and white need 3.5 volts
This is for the superbright style LED's like I used.
Oldskool that looks great however the orange buttons are very easy to light. A blue/green button will barely light up that way, I tried it.
If you have a spare leaf mount you should try my method. I tested orange buttons as well because we were considering them on the FLYERCADE CP.
Even with the orange color there is quite a difference between a light shining at the bottom of a button vs 1 or 2 mounted in it.
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i wouldn't trust anything except a multimeter or packaging. trying to trace a manufacturer may help, but is not worth the time. If you have access to a multimeter then have a look at http://www.metku.net/index.html?sect=view&n=1&path=mods/ledcalc/index_eng which can do all the work for you. I trust this calculator very much, and i think you should too.
Also, i know this is kind of off topic, but http://www.metku.net is a really great place to build small but impressive things to add on to your cab
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I don't see anything on that page that will determine the value of an unknown LED.
I tested my idea and it works well for identifying the superbrights.
Sorry guys but this post wasn't intended to be a tutorial on LED's. I was more trying to show my method for mounting them in the leaf holders and what I specifically used so you could recreate it. I just know this setup works, I'm not an expert on them.
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What color LEDs should be used for orange and red buttons?
And before anyone says "duh, orange and red", I am asking in reference to brightness. If I use a superbirght blue at 8-10k mcd, will they look outrageously bright next to the much lower mcd orange and red ones? Shoud I just put superbright white ones in the orange and red buttons?
Also, I don't see why kneivel's method of testing for voltage wouldn't work. As long as you don't make a large incremental leap in voltage, you should be fine.
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Fractal I can't speak for the red LED's (never tried them) but using the orange ones in an orange button provides a glow similar to the blue.
The blues are harder to light so the they need the higher mcd to get the same glow as the orange, if that makes sense. I don't have the orange buttons here or I would take a pic for you.
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After re-reading Knievel's post i think that it would be the easiest way to find LED voltages. Sorry about the doubt.
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For those who've never used the Wico's before I wanted to add the fact that they need a 1 3/16" hole vs the usual 1 1/8" pushbutton hole.
Also if you've got a 3/4" thick CP you'll need to route/chisel out approx 1/4" of wood on the underside where the buttons holders mount. You won't be able to get the nuts on otherwise...the buttons aren't long enough.
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Well.... I'm sold on this idea. I've ordered my parts from Wico and I've been doing some research regarding the LEDs. I'm going to get my LEDs from a local store, that way I can try a couple of different brightnesses out first then pick the ones I like best, and then buy the rest I need.
As far as the technicals go, I think I only need to be sure of the forward voltage and the current they normally work on. Then I can do the following calculation to find what size resisitor I need:
Supply Voltage
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Also if you've got a 3/4" thick CP you'll need to route/chisel out approx 1/4" of wood on the underside where the buttons holders mount. You won't be able to get the nuts on otherwise...the buttons aren't long enough.
Is that for "short" buttons or "long"? And is that with a holder for wood, or a holder for metal panels?
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It's for the parts that I used and have pictured/linked to above, the long buttons and the metal mounts.
My NEON MAME project has been updated. I came up with a sideart idea that compliments the lit buttons quite nicely... may do a how-to on it as well if there's interest.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,30538.0.html
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So I've combed the threads, and either I've been on the computer too long and my eyes are tired (the most likely scenario) or there was no actual mention of which color choice was used for the LED's in your beautiful control panel. They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain. I'm sure you experimented with various LED color choices--if you used blue LED's for blue buttons, what sort of results did you get with straight white LED's? Two of the eBay links you provided as LED sources have so many choices--it's tough to figure out which ones to get!
I too have the light blue transparent buttons, but I also have darker blue and red ones as well. Would it make the most sense to purchase white to cover all the bases, or would I end up wishing I had picked like-colors for each of the button types I have? Can you add a few more comments about color choices/mcd values from your experience?
Thanks a bunch, and kudos to the fine work on your cabinet.
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They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain.
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They appear white in the 3rd and 4th pictures, but it's difficult to be certain.
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Yes blue LED's is what I used, sorry I thought I mentioned that somewhere.
I would stick to matching the led color to the button color. I tried white superbright LED's on light and dark blue buttons as well as the orange...they all looked washed out.
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How did you mount the LEDs on the Trackball?
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fantastic work
but are there translucent buttons that will work with wooden cp's?
whats best solution clear buttons and colored leds, or colored button with white led's?
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CPickler I just used a piece of velcro to hold the LED's to the Trackball, lots of methods out there.
rchadd thanks for the comments. Those are the long Wico translucent buttons I used. They are intended for wooden CP's but as I mentioned I still had to route out 1/4" of the CP underside where the buttons were. That's using a 3/4" thick CP.
I've found colored buttons with the matching color LED looks best, the white LED's wash out the color. Clear translucent Wico buttons are very rare so that's not really an option. I think they would look pretty lame when the LED's were off anyway.
If you can live with the *click click* there is a thread in the main forum where someone is working on getting translucent microswitch buttons made. Should be a good option for everyone.
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Beautiful job dude!
Thanks for sharing :)
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Knievel--
Love the Buttons. Are the clear or are they blue...hard to see, I am not using my PC and this monitor stinks. Where did you get them from?
Thanks Thndrbug
I hope to be posting my project soon
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They are blue, from Wico. All that info is up top ^
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I just discovered this thread and thought I'd give my 2 methods for finding out what value resistor I need for an unknown voltage LED.
I hope I don't make any stupid math mistakes in calculations since I just woke up, but the method is right even if my numbers came out wrong. I'm doing it as I go.
Method 1:
Since I have a lab bench power supply with adjustable voltage outputs, that's usually my first method - let it be known that you ONLY need a series protection resistor to limit current on the LED if you are going to supply the LED with more voltage than it is rated for. IF you supply the LED with the exact voltage it's rated for, then it automatically draws the proper current that it can handle. As you increase voltage beyond that, there is also more current and eventual destruction.
So if you supply less than rated voltage, nothing happens because there isn't enough voltage to forward bias the diode and it's just open circuit. I start the power supply at 0volts and slowly increase it until the LED starts to turn on. I adjust it until it seems safe, not too dim, not too bright, and then whatever voltage I'm giving it is what I'm going to consider its rated voltage. Say it's 1.8 volts. If I'm going to power from a 12v computer power supply, then the resistor I need is 12v - 1.8v = 10.2v expected across the resistor I add in series. Then I measure the current actually going through the LED with my experimentally determined voltage, I stick a multimeter set to measure current, in series between the LED and one of the power terminals...say it's 10mA. Resistor needed is 10.2v / 10 mA = 1020 ohms so I'd stick a 1K resistor in series with the LED on a 12v supply.
I'd probably want to double check the power ratings of the resistor as I start using higher voltages so I don't burn it up. Most common resistors are 1/4 watt. Power = current squared x resistance, 0.010amps squared times 1000 ohms = 0.1 watts. 1/4 watt is 0.25watts so I have more than twice the power rating. No problem.
Suppose the power calculated grater than my resistor rating, just split the resistance up between several resistors in series, like make up 1K out of two 470 ohms in series to get close to 1K, and twice the power rating for 1/2 watt total. Add another 56 ohms if needed to get closer to 1K using standard component values (996 ohms)
When you add a resistor and a higher-than-rated voltage to the LED, the voltage measured across the LED will remain the same (rated voltage) and the rest of the power supply voltage will show up across the resistor if you happen to measure that. So running a 1.8v LED on 24volts would give 22.2v across the resistor and still 1.8v across the LED. 22.2v / 10 mA = about 2.2K resistor needed in series with the LED. It's only about 0.2 watts, still safe with a 1/4 watt single resistor in that case.
So that's method 1. Set a variable power supply at 0v, slowly turn up voltage until LED is satisfactorily lit, measure the current through the LED, calculate resistor needed with (expected power supply voltage minus LED voltage) divided by measured LED current, and make sure the power rating of the resistor can handle the calculated power dissipated by that resistor at that voltage and current.
Method 2:
If you have the fixed voltage power supply you are going to use, say 12v, and the LED, and you have no idea what resistor to add in series, obtain a variable resistor of a reasonable value - from the above example even with 24volts you'd only need a few K, so don't get a pot rated at 100K or 50K or even 25K maybe, because the "few K" area of the pot is going to be such a short travel near the end, you'll zoom through it too fast and maybe blow the LED. If you get say 5K pot it should be ok to work with. Ignore one of the end terminals on the pot and work with the other 2 as your 2 resistor wires. WHen you adjust the pot you'll vary the resistance of those 2 leads between 0 and full range ohms.
Set the pot dial in the middle, then you'll have half resistance across the 2 terminals without needing to worry about which end-of-travel direction of the dial is going to be full or zero ohms, and accidentally blow the LED in ignorance. So you have a power supply, an LED and the POT 2 leads all connected in series. Power it up. Most likely the LED won't be on. Slowly adjust the pot in either direction until it comes on - if it doesn't come on, you're probably turning the pot the wrong way and increasing resistance, lowering current. Turn it slowly the other way until it comes on. If it still doesn't, maybe the LED is backwards. Reverse it and have the pot set to center again and start over.
When you get the LED to light as desired, disconnect the pot and measure the resistance between those 2 terminals you used. THat's the value you need for a fixed resistor.
If there's any typos, calculation, or logic errors in all that, it's because I just woke up...at least gain some ideas for approaches from it.
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I was cursed at birth with impatience. I admire all the time put into it, but I doubt I could ever do it because I simply can't sit still long enough.
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Thought I would bore you guys with my implementation of Knievl's great idea...
I chose red buttons and....yes red LEDs....mainly because my cab is black and red colors. May take some time before I re-theme it...one step at a time !
My original metal CP had square (Lorenzo Industries) pushbuttons. Although they were lighted, I think this kind of button belongs on gambling machines (slot machines, whatever you call them) and are not suitable for videogames.
Also they use microswitches, which I hate.
Had to make one exception: P1 and P2 buttons don't come in leaf versions, and I don't really care for them to be leafs....makes sense I hope.
The holes that the original buttons needed were smaller then the proper translucent Suzo buttons. So I had to use my Dremel (clone) to make them larger. Lots of patience and work....
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Finished....not too bad, although some minor markings are visible ::) May have to put something under the buttons to cover it up. But when I re-theme it, there probably will be a new CP anyway. That is also the reason why I didn't isolate the solderings to the leds, and kept the led wires pretty long.
For some strange reason, the red translucent buttons are only available in short length. Also Suzo only had the small (less thick) buttonholders for wood cabs...
I solved this by placing two layers of board on top of eachother, make the holes in proper places, and this is what it looks like, the board is also a nice isolater. I put the LED's in series with 1 resitor (under the isolation, top-left) per three buttons. The power comes from the original 12V power lines that lit the lamps. So not from my PC power supply, but from the cab.
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The result: Great if I say so myself.
O, forgot to mention that I used only 1 LED per button. Drill the hole trhough and through on one side, then the LED will throw it's light straight to the other side of the holder. The result is great. Very evenly lit, only experts will know there is only one led lighting it. This also saves a lot of money, those hi-brite leds are very expensive.....
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Good work.
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Very evenly lit, only experts will know there is only one led lighting it. This also saves a lot of money, those hi-brite leds are very expensive.....
BTW, there are some great LED deals on Ebay. I just needed 45 x 3000mcd 5mm pinks. Bought them from Hong Kong for $13 inc shipping to England!
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O, and drill with GREAT care ! This is what happens if you don't ;D
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Just has a thought for people building their CPs out of wood (and this would also work with the new translucent microswitch buttons).
Why not just use a router or drill to make some shallow LED shaped slots around the button holes. The LEDs could then be placed in the slots and kept in place by the button nut (if you're using microswitch buttons) or the leaf switch holder (if you're using leaf switch buttons).
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Maybe also will work ok, but then you definitly need at least two LED's, like Knievl's original. The fact that the LED is IN the buttonholder makes that the light is transmitted within the plastic of the buttonholder too (not only directly in the button itself) I guess this gives it a more "even" lighting...not sure though didn't test, and I used Red, which is probably easier to light then Knievl's blue buttons....
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Nice job. :) Good to see someone else trying it.
If you want lighted buttons you just can't beat the leafs! The ring is definitely the secret to the even lighting.
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Thanks Knievl. Indeed the buttonholder is doing much of the trick. Besides: leaf switches ROCK ! When adjusted properly, you can fire a lot quicker than with microswitches.
No clickerdieclick and also adjustable to your "taste" (contactmoment). It just feels better....just MHO
Anybody noticed I used a Tungsten contact leaf for my #1 (fire) button ? All the others are the (little bit cheaper) silver contacts. Figured this button will work about 10 times as much as the others. On another thread I read that the Tungsten conctacts are only really needed for high currents, and that it wouldn't make any difference in this application. We'll see. I think both are good quality so far....
I also noticed that people use the hole to screw the buttonholder to the panel. Is that really neccesary ? On the Suzo catalogue it says "buttonholder with lamp mounting" so I figured that extra hole was for mounting some kind of lamp holder...
Of course, it won't do any harm to do it :) Also prevents turning of the holder I guess...mmm where's that screwdriver....
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So the Lightable Horizontal Pushbuttons from Groovygamegear, are'nt as effective as these leafswitch mods then???
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Hey Lettuce, I only noticed your reply just now. Remember this was done long before GroovyGameGear came up with their lirghtable buttons. I've only seen pictures of those and they too look good to me, although different in the general effect. If you put Ponyboy's leaf switches on them, I guess you must be about the same as this solution. My only thought about those small leaf switches is how they feel, since the blades are a lot smaller of course. Space wise, a GGG with Ponyboy's leafs is a lot better than this solution. And the "regular" leafs seem to be getting rare.
I personaly just don't like microswitches, so that's why I choose this solution back then.
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I personaly just don't like microswitches, so that's why I choose this solution back then.
Truer words were ne'er spoken. Micros suck bad for constant button pressing. Although I think they serve a purpose. I kinda think the clickety sound works when pressing coin, start, or especially a mouse button, but after that, the noise is just that. Noise.
Kneivel's method rocks. I used it as well and it looks so great.
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Mmm, yeah, this actualy became a very well known word in computing: You CLICK on this or that icon....
The microswitches' click is actualy responsible for this :-\
How about a mouse with leafs !!!! My bet is that a LOT of people would have had a lot less damage from RSI if mouses would have had leafs......
But then....we would't have a word instead of "CLICK"....
Hyper, how did the stuff I sent you end up ? Pix ? (PM please !)
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pls exkuze da newb: ready to start thinkn bout building a cab, gunna start with a CP, love the lit buttons. Reading all kinds of stuff bout leafs vs micro's. My machine will not be sitting in some public arcade, being pounded on by rabid 12-year olds. Leafs ok? Less noise, nice feel, worth the money? Am thinking to order parts listed earlier, from wico, if they still around (website looking like it hasn't been updated in a long time).
Thinking of a 4 player, which also raises questions of button colours, but mebbe thats for another thread.
Much thanks in advance
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Well, I'm a leaf man all the way, so don't ask me :laugh:
Simply put: my opinion is that leafs are worth the money, "trouble" (what trouble ?),space etc. If you do some searching here you will find plenty of threads that are discussing leafs versus microswitches.
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Wico is dead and buried. You'll have to find another vendor.
www.centsibleamusements.com
www.lizardlickamusements.com
http://homearcade.org/BBBB/
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Leafs are the option of choice.
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Thanks for the info, and the links. Will get started when I get back from vacation in 2 weeks. But judging from what I've read, I dont think it'll be complete anytime soon :'(
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Wico is dead and buried. You'll have to find another vendor.
www.centsibleamusements.com
www.lizardlickamusements.com
http://homearcade.org/BBBB/
I bought them at Suzo, but they say they are getting rare.....