The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Project Announcements => Topic started by: John Blund on July 15, 2012, 05:30:55 pm
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Hi!
Today Santa is in town, and is taking up requests. :notworthy:
I am thinking of making a PCI-e card for PC's. But the thing is that I want to make something to make new arcade games with jamma connectors. This year I will start at a new school that is dedicated at learning how make custom computers. And arcade games is custom computers, so that would be fun. I have been designing electronics for over 15 years. But now I'm ready for the next step :cheers: No emulation will now be necessary, today you can integrate complicated integrated logic designs, in one or two standard chips. New graphics chips, sound chips or CPU:s, custom memory configurations, or what ever.
What would be a great card do you think? Do you want to have the card connected to a PC, or should it be stand alone. And what features would be nice? All old nice problems that you hate can be solved if they just are mentioned. If nothing else, I'm thinking of a stand alone card to make new games on. And that could run old games without emulation as well, even if that is not my primary target. When it is finished I am thinking of making it all free. And if there is others that want to join, it could be an open project from start to end. But at this stage it would just be cool if you had something that you have been looking for, that you have not found yet. :P
What is your dream that needs to become true? :dunno
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Hey man, glad to see you posting here! I think that a JAMMA board that can be programmed from a PC using USB would be convenient. I know very little about creating games myself, but I think some kind of encryption would be important too as it might attract small game studios to release games to the home arcade crowd (or are there any operators still working today that would pick this up?).
My wishlist:
1. JAMMA edge connector
2. JAMMA+ connector with a standardized connector that is easy to get hold of for buttons 5+6
3. Stereo output (low level) as well as the amplified mono on the JAMMA edge connector
4. Standalone, small-footprint JAMMA PCB - No need to hook it up to a PC or additional hardware such as ATX PSU
Perhaps discuss this with the author of GroovyMAME and get a list of common components this hardware can replicate (or is it emulated?) and see if GroovyMAME can use the components directly instead of emulating them using software. Kinda like using a GPU's hardware acceleration for playing back HD video instead of having the CPU + software do it.
Note for BYOAC regulars, have no fear about the above poster being "that guy" btw. I had a conversation about arcade hardware with "John Blund" (Swedish for "Sandman") last evening at a party, he's not crazy.
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Well I think that making your own hardware in logic, is a bit like a black art these days. But there is still some of us left.
Now to get on with the wish list to Santa :o.
1 JAMMA... no problem.
2 JAMMA+ with more buttons... no problem.
3 Stereo sound... no problem.
4 Stand alone card without -12V (ATX PSU)... no problem.
Yes, but I think that you come with an even greater more genuine Idea. Maybe some kind of API could be used to configure half breeds between MAME and logic replicas of arcade hardware. That would be way cool. I'm not sure what the most common components in arcade games is. But lets say I implement two Z80 chips, configurable address space, ROM and RAM and two AY8910, and some different graphics hardware to begin with. Then we could get at least 50 to 100 games working as hardware replicas.
But I would need someone to help me with making a custom version of MAME. Then I could do the hardware design, and write the drivers for Linux and Windows for the card. This will be all needed to get cycle exact hardware replicas of these games. It would not be emulations any more. In this way, the feeling would be great and NO ONE could ever complain that it's not the real hardware. :cheers: If you want to get any more real than this, then you have to connect the old arcade PCB's we all have stacked in piles ;). Then all die hards don't have to switch boards any more to get the purist touch. No more lag or glitches ever, as in the old times!!!
I think it could be quite doable. There is open source logic descriptions of most processors used in arcade games, so the hardest parts is already done.
I am quite willing to make this happen. But I surly don't know anyone, that know MAME inside out. If there is someone that is willing to modify MAME for this purpose. Then I will make the hardware to make the old games run from these configuration descriptions that we will send over USB to a stand alone card (yes you can make a PCI-e on the board also for flexibility, and can be a great during development). What I need is someone to talk to about this, that know the ins and outs of MAME. And someone that are willing to spend time modifying MAME.
I think that would be a great start... If you know anyone, that may know anyone, that is capable of modifying MAME, then let them know. Then it would be great. If I cant find anyone thats willing to spend time modifying MAME, then I will just do a board with JAMMA. It would we fun to run own games in a arcade cabinet also.
Wouldn't it be great with real hardware and to skip software emulation of hardware? No more bios startup :laugh:
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There is of course the legality to consider. MAME's license is pretty straightforward on what's allowed and not, there are a couple of free roms out there, but most games supported by MAME is copyright protected and making multi-game cards is frowned upon. Therefor, getting a MAME dev onboard a project like this might be difficult at best, they might even oppose it.
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instead of builing your own pci-e card, why not modify the bios of existnig cards to allow 15kz signals on lower resolutions and use that as a thesis for school
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instead of builing your own pci-e card, why not modify the bios of existnig cards to allow 15kz signals on lower resolutions and use that as a thesis for school
like the AVGA?
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instead of builing your own pci-e card, why not modify the bios of existnig cards to allow 15kz signals on lower resolutions and use that as a thesis for school
like the AVGA?
yep
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But that would need to hook a whole computer up to this instead of having a small standalone card you install in a JAMMA cabinet. I personally hate playing on computers and never use my 2 J-Pacs as it involves non-stop hassle (in my experience).
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instead of builing your own pci-e card, why not modify the bios of existnig cards to allow 15kz signals on lower resolutions and use that as a thesis for school
Well, the reason is simple. I have looked around and there are no cards that even come near what I am looking for.
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jamma edge is nice. But if this might be a all-n-1 card go ahead and throw on a encoder/multi-device function(s) as well. Also a pci-e card is great, but heck how about a SoC thumbdrive? On the other side of the drive is a micro-sdhc slot capable of handling up to 64gb cards. Plug-n-play baby.
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Some of the Devs have expressed interest in a Hardware based mame. I suggest you post on Mameworld forum, where a lot of them hang out. Even if they were not.. Im pretty sure someone would be interested. Any time there has been some hardware produced... eventually a version of mame has been created for it.
As for the idea... I think its cool. However, if you lock your technology into a video card... and then computers change Slot types due to new advances... your card will be obsolete.
Eventually, old Pc hardware will fail.. especially in these days, where things are made as cheaply as possible.
I wonder if some sort of pass-thru box might be a better idea? Stand-Alone device? I dunno.
I do also agree that some form of flash memory slot option may be nice as well.
(but not limited to that alone)
A big factor to consider, is making sure there is full unique controller capability.. such as spinners, trackballs, pedals, shifters... and even unique controllers. 4 speaker output would be good too. Shaker motors, Force Feedback wheels, Lamp output, arcade guns....etc..
When we think of Mame -vs- a hardware multikit... the advantage usually goes to mame in software format, because of mames flexibilities and lack of restrictions.
I think something has to be exceptional, and give functionality that isnt easily achieved in mame, to really be successful.
How about instead...to develop something to compliment the many missing things in emulated games, both mame, and elsewhere?
A common problem with Driving games is lack of good shifter support. There are multiple kinds of arcade shifters. 2 way arcade shifters cant be used with standard mame.. due to the press and release toggle issue. Shifters use hold-down to activate. But mame simply toggles by a button press.
Additionally, if you had an 4, 5, or 6 way shifter, NO emulated games, or console games, and even most PC games.. wouldnt allow its proper use. I think a system Could be developed to send pulses based on the position the shifter is in.
Analog shifter support would also be desired. Race Drivin's analog shifter design is probably the best ever developed. They would work great for Race Drivin as-is, as well as any other game... if they were read and translated correctly via hardware, to a digital form.
A toggle mode button(s), would allow flexibility for on-the-fly functionality changes, of the type of device, and how its being translated... for all around compatibility and flexibility. (allowing multiple shifter types if one really wanted it.. as well as ability to read multiple ways without too much hassle)
Then you have issued with force feedback. Mame only supports it externally, with Howards 'Mame Hooker' program. But most people have only basic wiring skill.. and do not have the hardware / electrical knowledge to out together a real force feedback wheel interface, coil interface...etc. With mame hooker (or similar) , and a simple pre-built kit, one could get a ffb wheel, or wire some Terminator 2 coils up... and have the correct arcade experience. It might also be used in conjunction with scripting/programming, in other emulators or games... to add things to games that never existed before. Such as a force feedback coil tripping when a character is hit on the screen, in a fighting game.
(a good example of this showed up recently with a program that looks for the Tron Light Cycle stage, then disables diagonals when it detects it)
Direct force feedback output might also be handled directly in mame, should the hardware be readily available...rather than use an outside program like Mamehooker. Missing hardware has always been a huge stumbling block.
Light output support, is in many devices.. However, Im not so sure how easy it is... or if its even possible.. to drive a games leds per emulation. Such as in Spy Hunters weapons lights... or T2's leds that flash based on the games gun power levels.
Real pinball control might be a farfetched output dream.. but with Pinmame and a good hardware kit.. Pinball machines might be able to be reproduced.
(or at least just some coils activated for better simulated flippers or pop bumper activity)
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Some of the Devs have expressed interest in a Hardware based mame. I suggest you post on Mameworld forum, where a lot of them hang out. Even if they were not.. Im pretty sure someone would be interested. Any time there has been some hardware produced... eventually a version of mame has been created for it.
As for the idea... I think its cool. However, if you lock your technology into a video card... and then computers change Slot types due to new advances... your card will be obsolete.
Eventually, old Pc hardware will fail.. especially in these days, where things are made as cheaply as possible.
I wonder if some sort of pass-thru box might be a better idea? Stand-Alone device? I dunno.
I do also agree that some form of flash memory slot option may be nice as well.
(but not limited to that alone)
A big factor to consider, is making sure there is full unique controller capability.. such as spinners, trackballs, pedals, shifters... and even unique controllers. 4 speaker output would be good too. Shaker motors, Force Feedback wheels, Lamp output, arcade guns....etc..
When we think of Mame -vs- a hardware multikit... the advantage usually goes to mame in software format, because of mames flexibilities and lack of restrictions.
I think something has to be exceptional, and give functionality that isnt easily achieved in mame, to really be successful.
How about instead...to develop something to compliment the many missing things in emulated games, both mame, and elsewhere?
A common problem with Driving games is lack of good shifter support. There are multiple kinds of arcade shifters. 2 way arcade shifters cant be used with standard mame.. due to the press and release toggle issue. Shifters use hold-down to activate. But mame simply toggles by a button press.
Additionally, if you had an 4, 5, or 6 way shifter, NO emulated games, or console games, and even most PC games.. wouldnt allow its proper use. I think a system Could be developed to send pulses based on the position the shifter is in.
Analog shifter support would also be desired. Race Drivin's analog shifter design is probably the best ever developed. They would work great for Race Drivin as-is, as well as any other game... if they were read and translated correctly via hardware, to a digital form.
A toggle mode button(s), would allow flexibility for on-the-fly functionality changes, of the type of device, and how its being translated... for all around compatibility and flexibility. (allowing multiple shifter types if one really wanted it.. as well as ability to read multiple ways without too much hassle)
Then you have issued with force feedback. Mame only supports it externally, with Howards 'Mame Hooker' program. But most people have only basic wiring skill.. and do not have the hardware / electrical knowledge to out together a real force feedback wheel interface, coil interface...etc. With mame hooker (or similar) , and a simple pre-built kit, one could get a ffb wheel, or wire some Terminator 2 coils up... and have the correct arcade experience. It might also be used in conjunction with scripting/programming, in other emulators or games... to add things to games that never existed before. Such as a force feedback coil tripping when a character is hit on the screen, in a fighting game.
(a good example of this showed up recently with a program that looks for the Tron Light Cycle stage, then disables diagonals when it detects it)
Direct force feedback output might also be handled directly in mame, should the hardware be readily available...rather than use an outside program like Mamehooker. Missing hardware has always been a huge stumbling block.
Light output support, is in many devices.. However, Im not so sure how easy it is... or if its even possible.. to drive a games leds per emulation. Such as in Spy Hunters weapons lights... or T2's leds that flash based on the games gun power levels.
Real pinball control might be a farfetched output dream.. but with Pinmame and a good hardware kit.. Pinball machines might be able to be reproduced.
(or at least just some coils activated for better simulated flippers or pop bumper activity)
Insanely Idiotic (Billy Madison) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HoaFWI5S0Q#ws)
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Some of the Devs have expressed interest in a Hardware based mame. I suggest you post on Mameworld forum, where a lot of them hang out. Even if they were not.. Im pretty sure someone would be interested. Any time there has been some hardware produced... eventually a version of mame has been created for it.
Ok, I will check that out. And I have started to learn about how MAME works, it looks like it wasn't that hard as I thought to begin with. I have found a couple of great recourses with inside information. There are many things to learn form the work with MAME and the source code. But the actual MAME software is something I will not use. MAME is emulation, and that is not what I am trying to do.
As for the idea... I think its cool. However, if you lock your technology into a video card... and then computers change Slot types due to new advances... your card will be obsolete.
Eventually, old Pc hardware will fail.. especially in these days, where things are made as cheaply as possible.
I wonder if some sort of pass-thru box might be a better idea? Stand-Alone device? I dunno.
I do also agree that some form of flash memory slot option may be nice as well.
(but not limited to that alone)
Well I can agree. The technology I will use, does not depend on things that go obsolete. And at the moment it looks like the device will be stand alone. And it will probably use some kind of flash card like SD-card. And it will be totally independent from other systems as much as possible.
A big factor to consider, is making sure there is full unique controller capability.. such as spinners, trackballs, pedals, shifters... and even unique controllers. 4 speaker output would be good too. Shaker motors, Force Feedback wheels, Lamp output, arcade guns....etc..
Well, when you make all the hardware, it is easy to support things like that. But for a normal PC, these king of things can be a big problem. Many companies that build components for PC's depend on making hardware obsolete to keep the competition away. Good examples of that is HDMI and Thunderbolt.
When we think of Mame -vs- a hardware multikit... the advantage usually goes to mame in software format, because of mames flexibilities and lack of restrictions.
I think something has to be exceptional, and give functionality that isnt easily achieved in mame, to really be successful.
How about instead...to develop something to compliment the many missing things in emulated games, both mame, and elsewhere?
Well to get rid of Windows, and Linux is a good start I think. They are only in the way if you try to make a good emulation. I think the PC has served well as a platform for emulation. But things has changed. And as the cost of hardware is going down, the biggest cost will eventually be to try to hang on to the chicken race.
Real pinball control might be a farfetched output dream.. but with Pinmame and a good hardware kit.. Pinball machines might be able to be reproduced.
(or at least just some coils activated for better simulated flippers or pop bumper activity)
I didn't know of Pinmame. I will look in to it.
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Real pinball control might be a farfetched output dream.. but with Pinmame and a good hardware kit.. Pinball machines might be able to be reproduced.
(or at least just some coils activated for better simulated flippers or pop bumper activity)
I didn't know of Pinmame. I will look in to it.
Here's the place to look.
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php? (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?)
Scott
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You mean something like FPGA Arcade (http://www.fpgaarcade.com/)?
My wish-list of features for such a product are:
- stand-alone (no Windows, no Linux, no Mac required)
- can work from a small power supply (ATX is way too big for small projects)
- can access ROM files via CompactFlash or SD cards
- JAMMA connector + whatever other standard connectors for things not available on JAMMA. I'm thinking about maybe using the DB15 Neo-Geo game ports? DB15 connectors (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/8R15-N001/3M10609-ND/2744544) are easy to find, even in 2012.
- stereo line level output (1/8" stereo connector would be fine)
- can output to composite, S-Video, VGA, DVI-D/HDMI (you never know what kind of monitor each project might require)
- hardware scanning lines options would be nice, if the output resolution allows it (depending on which video output was used, of course)
- built-in game selection interface (nothing fancy, but configurable to at least one full-screen image per game, or ideally using a 32-bit PNG for each game and a 32-bit PNG for the interface overlay to save space and keep the interface editing to a minimum)
- two 8-way joysticks with 6 buttons per player minimum
- trackball and spinner
- steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedals
- coin mechanisms + player start buttons
- Neo-Geo features (game select button, multi-cart with highlighted selection for DIY backlight mini-marquees, from 1 to 6 games, dual 7-segment credit displays for each player)
- output the selected ROM filename on a SPI port (or something) for dynamic LCD marquees, even from the game selection interface
So, as you see, I'm not asking for much. ;)
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You mean something like FPGA Arcade (http://www.fpgaarcade.com/)?
My wish-list of features for such a product are:
- stand-alone (no Windows, no Linux, no Mac required)
- can work from a small power supply (ATX is way too big for small projects)
Ok, there must be a way to use it even if you don't use Jamma, is that what I'm hearing? Well I think it would be nice to use it out of the box also. But it should be easy to use it in a cabinet without hassle. I think that to use a PC in a arcade cabinet is just lame. It's just a feeling. Bios and PC's gives me the creeps. A big part of arcade is that it isn't a simple PC. A trouble free solution would always be the best. It should be fun. And installing operating systems isn't what I'm thinking of, when I think of arcade games. Maybe I will upset someone. But lets face it, maybe you can imagine that the PC isn't there. But you can still sense it's presence. Maybe someone can fool you, but that isn't what I am about. If you want a hammer, than you buy a real hammer, not a toy that looks like a hammer.
- can access ROM files via CompactFlash or SD cards
- JAMMA connector + whatever other standard connectors for things not available on JAMMA. I'm thinking about maybe using the DB15 Neo-Geo game ports? DB15 connectors (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/8R15-N001/3M10609-ND/2744544) are easy to find, even in 2012.
- stereo line level output (1/8" stereo connector would be fine)
- can output to composite, S-Video, VGA, DVI-D/HDMI (you never know what kind of monitor each project might require)
Ok, the neo geo thing is nothing that I have thought of. I may be a great idea. And different video formats is good. But HDMI has to be a add-on. HDMI isn't a connector, it's the devil itself. I would not bring satan upon this project. If anyone made an add-on it would be okay, but I won't go near it. HDMI is DRM, if you pay for it, then it's the same as being insane. It will only make the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- lag.
- hardware scanning lines options would be nice, if the output resolution allows it (depending on which video output was used, of course)
- built-in game selection interface (nothing fancy, but configurable to at least one full-screen image per game, or ideally using a 32-bit PNG for each game and a 32-bit PNG for the interface overlay to save space and keep the interface editing to a minimum)
- two 8-way joysticks with 6 buttons per player minimum
- trackball and spinner
- steering wheel, accelerator and brake pedals
- coin mechanisms + player start buttons
- Neo-Geo features (game select button, multi-cart with highlighted selection for DIY backlight mini-marquees, from 1 to 6 games, dual 7-segment credit displays for each player)
[...]
So, as you see, I'm not asking for much. ;)
Well you sort of ask for the same things as the others. But you give more reasons to do it. I'm thinking that there must be a good way of wire up custom things. I think that it would be great if it was easy. Maybe connectors for attaching small boards, for soldering or what ever. And if you do anything wrong, you would just replace that single part.
How to make the game selection is something to give more thoughts. It have to feel like it's a part of the game, but I don't know how that have to look like. Anyone who has thoughts about that?
- output the selected ROM filename on a SPI port (or something) for dynamic LCD marquees, even from the game selection interface
Well that a great idea to utilize a common standard. Then you can use of the self parts, that will be here for a long time. More thoughts like that.
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I'm watching this closely. 8)
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I would love some real arcade lightgun support. If Santa can make a box that let's me plug in a happs gun and have it play in MAME that would be some amazing stuff and really add a lot to current setups.
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I would love some real arcade lightgun support. If Santa can make a box that let's me plug in a happs gun and have it play in MAME that would be some amazing stuff and really add a lot to current setups.
Now that's what I'm talk'n 'bout. :cheers:
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Pinmame can control a real pin jst fine, take a look at this...
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=17696 (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=17696)
A bit off topic but some other pincab related projects are..
http://www.pindmd.com/default.php (http://www.pindmd.com/default.php) I have one of these!.
and
http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/showthread.php?15644-LED-wiz-alternative (http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/showthread.php?15644-LED-wiz-alternative)
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That HDMI rant made me LOL. :cheers: How about just DVI and SPDIF then? :laugh2:
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Pinmame can control a real pin jst fine, take a look at this...
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=17696 (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=17696)
A bit off topic but some other pincab related projects are..
http://www.pindmd.com/default.php (http://www.pindmd.com/default.php) I have one of these!.
and
http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/showthread.php?15644-LED-wiz-alternative (http://www.hyperspin-fe.com/forum/showthread.php?15644-LED-wiz-alternative)
Thanks for showing me this. What a total ripoff!!! More than $300 for that P-ROC board. Then the cost of a PC on top of that :o. Can any one name the price this will land on? Looks like they need help more than us.
Well we could do a lot better than this it's for sure. It looks like they have had severe problems with the pinMAME project. But actually I don't know much about it. But it looks some kind of pricey to me. But what do you think? What would be a totally okay price for a hardware without any software emulation, to run all those rom's?
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That HDMI rant made me LOL. :cheers: How about just DVI and SPDIF then? :laugh2:
:P Well I could put like 10 VGA or DVI ports on that board for the price of one HDMI port.
And DHMI is not worthy a true gamer. I wonder why NVIDIA is spending this amount of effort to make that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- work... http://www.nvidia.com/object/cloud-gaming-benefits.html (http://www.nvidia.com/object/cloud-gaming-benefits.html)
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Personally I dont think cost is too much of an issue in this hobby, but i may be wrong.
Not sure PC free virtual pinball cabinets can be produced as pinmame only covers the rom emulation of course and a pc is needed for the table rendering and physics simulation.
But some people do recreate real pins, it may be good for you to ask what people may like on the vpforum and the hyperpin site (i can do this for you if you like)
Below are some more links to other projects
http://benheck.com/03-16-2010/bill-paxton-pinball (http://benheck.com/03-16-2010/bill-paxton-pinball)
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=18203 (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=18203)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111201.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111201.0)
Analogue nudging and a good plunger solution are two things people are trying to get right
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Personally I dont think cost is too much of an issue in this hobby, but i may be wrong.
Not sure PC free virtual pinball cabinets can be produced as pinmame only covers the rom emulation of course and a pc is needed for the table rendering and physics simulation.
But some people do recreate real pins, it may be good for you to ask what people may like on the vpforum and the hyperpin site (i can do this for you if you like)
Below are some more links to other projects
http://benheck.com/03-16-2010/bill-paxton-pinball (http://benheck.com/03-16-2010/bill-paxton-pinball)
http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=18203 (http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?showtopic=18203)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111201.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=111201.0)
Analogue nudging and a good plunger solution are two things people are trying to get right
I don't have any pinball game, so it's kind of hard for me to test these things. But I will keep my eyes open, maybe I will do something later on as i like to play pinball also. But any good insights about how to make a good pinball card would be welcome.
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Is there any one, who has any ideas about how you could make a project like this open source in a constructive way? The main reason would then be to make it possible to continue development.
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
I don't know much about making a project open source but I do know that the arduino folks seemed to have cracked that nut so perhaps there are some cues that can be taken from them.
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
I don't know much about making a project open source but I do know that the arduino folks seemed to have cracked that nut so perhaps there are some cues that can be taken from them.
Yes I have looked a lot on arduino, not because I like it, but because I admire the way they has got people to engage.
Well it would be nice with gun integration. But what games is it that use these? I have to look at the specifications for these games. I have to be able to support the processors that these machines use. I looked at virtua cop for example, and it uses a i960 and thats a problem, the games need to use more common processors. For best luck, it would be games that was produced in the early 90s. What games should I check out?
Is these guns made to be used by CRT monitor? Is these Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns common? if so i could make it possible to wire it in to the board. Is it someone that knows what connector it is that is used inside the arcade?
I am going to start to work on the PCB (the design of the card itself) today. And I will work out dimensions and holes to place it in a cabinet, and connectors and things like that. Anyone that has thoughts about that?
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Well it would be nice with gun integration. But what games is it that use these? I have to look at the specifications for these games. I have to be able to support the processors that these machines use. I looked at virtua cop for example, and it uses a i960 and thats a problem, the games need to use more common processors. For best luck, it would be games that was produced in the early 90s. What games should I check out?
Is these guns made to be used by CRT monitor? Is these Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns common? if so i could make it possible to wire it in to the board. Is it someone that knows what connector it is that is used inside the arcade?
I am going to start to work on the PCB (the design of the card itself) today. And I will work out dimensions and holes to place it in a cabinet, and connectors and things like that. Anyone that has thoughts about that?
Answering my self here :-)
It looks like the connector for a happ gun would connect to a standard 5pin header. And it's designed for CRT. I could make it work without any problem. Now it's only down to games that I can support for this feature.
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Some of the most common gun games I can think of would be Lethal Enforcers, Area 51, Police Trainer and Point Blank.
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Some of the most common gun games I can think of would be Lethal Enforcers, Area 51, Police Trainer and Point Blank.
Point blank is the most likely to get support for first. It looks like most of these games use odd things. But I have at least decided to build in support for guns on the card. But I think it will take some time before these old games gets supported. But when it's possible, then you connect the board to USB and upgrades, it's as simple as that.
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
What games use analog controllers? And how are they usually connected?
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
What games use analog controllers? And how are they usually connected?
A lot of games use analog controls, either in a flight yoke or accelerator/brake. Most steering wheels used rotary encoders but some used pots I think. Some of the classic gun games are analog controllers also.
Afterburner
STUN Runner
Star Wars Arcade
Star Wars Racer Arcade
T2: Judgement Day
Spacegun
Jurassic Park
Star Wars
Return of the Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
Food Fight
Road Runner
Red Barron
I Robot
Space Harrier
Monkey Ball
Hang On
Super Hang On
Lunar Lander
All of these are titles with analog controllers (feel free to correct this list if I have put anything in that isn't) and I'm pretty sure there are a log more out there that fit into this list.
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
What games use analog controllers? And how are they usually connected?
A lot of games use analog controls, either in a flight yoke or accelerator/brake. Most steering wheels used rotary encoders but some used pots I think. Some of the classic gun games are analog controllers also.
Afterburner
STUN Runner
Star Wars Arcade
Star Wars Racer Arcade
T2: Judgement Day
Spacegun
Jurassic Park
Star Wars
Return of the Jedi
Empire Strikes Back
Food Fight
Road Runner
Red Barron
I Robot
Space Harrier
Monkey Ball
Hang On
Super Hang On
Lunar Lander
All of these are titles with analog controllers (feel free to correct this list if I have put anything in that isn't) and I'm pretty sure there are a log more out there that fit into this list.
Well I'm keeping a list of games that I'm going after before the others. I just put up afterburner on that list.
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any good insights about how to make a good pinball card would be welcome.
To cover the greatest number of Visual Pinball and Future Pinball tables, you will need inputs for:
Coin
Start
Plunger/Ball Launcher
R/Flipper
L/Flipper
L/Up/Flipper
R/Up/Flipper
L/Magnasave
R/Magnasave
Fwd/Nudge
L/Nudge
R/Nudge
Pause
Exit
Quit (Visual Pinball)
Future Pinball also supports using a mouse input for plunger/launcher. I'll be posting soon about my controller build that uses realistic pinball shooter hardware and a laser gaming mouse.
You may also want to have x- and y-axis analog nudge inputs, even though the analog encoder details may not be refined yet.
If you need to reduce the number of inputs, Upper flipper and Magnasave can be combined by outputting 2 keystrokes for 1 button press since any table that uses upper flippers doesn't use Magnasaves, and any table that uses Magnasaves doesn't use upper flippers.
Scott
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John, If you need controllers or parts to start testing some of this stuff out I'd be willing to provide one of the standard Happ 45 Cal. Optical Guns (http://na.suzohapp.com/amusement/optical/96210017.htm) if you decide to try your hand at light gun integration. I may also have an analog controller I can send your way as well. Getting the roms and cards running would be awesome but without really versatile controller support the utility will be limited.
What games use analog controllers? And how are they usually connected?
A lot of games use analog controls, either in a flight yoke or accelerator/brake. Most steering wheels used rotary encoders but some used pots I think. Some of the classic gun games are analog controllers also.
How many analog inputs are needed? 4 or more?
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I'm pretty sure four pots covers any game I can think of, most don't use more than three and a lot use only two so I'd say that four would be great. Four analog inputs, two light gun inputs, and compliment of standard joy and button inputs would be a impressive feat I'd think. Maybe throw in a rotary support and call it a day?
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I'm pretty sure four pots covers any game I can think of, most don't use more than three and a lot use only two so I'd say that four would be great. Four analog inputs, two light gun inputs, and compliment of standard joy and button inputs would be a impressive feat I'd think. Maybe throw in a rotary support and call it a day?
What if someone wants to set up a 2 Player racing cab?
Wouldn't that would be 6 - 2 ea. of wheel, gas, and brake.
7 if you use a SW yoke for one position.
Scott
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I'm pretty sure four pots covers any game I can think of, most don't use more than three and a lot use only two so I'd say that four would be great. Four analog inputs, two light gun inputs, and compliment of standard joy and button inputs would be a impressive feat I'd think. Maybe throw in a rotary support and call it a day?
What if someone wants to set up a 2 Player racing cab?
Wouldn't that would be 6 - 2 ea. of wheel, gas, and brake.
7 if you use a SW yoke for one position.
Scott
In that case the ability to daisy chain boards would be a nice functionality. That way the "what-ifs" can be taken care of by telling the guy to get a second board. If the guy was cheap he could go with digital brakes and make it okay with 4... who brakes anyway? Braking is for squares.
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I'm pretty sure four pots covers any game I can think of, most don't use more than three and a lot use only two so I'd say that four would be great. Four analog inputs, two light gun inputs, and compliment of standard joy and button inputs would be a impressive feat I'd think. Maybe throw in a rotary support and call it a day?
What would be a "compliment of standard joy and button inputs"? JAMMA+ or what?
Games that use 2 trackballs: Atari Football, Track & Field, Cabal, Marble Madness.
Looks like SegaSonic the Hedgehog, and Rampart uses 3 trackballs.
As pins is almost for free, I could add some just some on the board for completeness...
3x trackballs (6 encoders),
2x extra joysticks for Gauntlet and others,
2x light gun inputs,
8x analog input channels.
+ some extra spare I/O..
...I think that this will fit in a 20x2 standard header on the board.
1x JAMMA+ connector with stereo sound, and extra buttons.
1x VGA connector with separate graphics output, not the same signals as those on the JAMMA connector.
1x 3.5mm stereo audiojack or 2x RCA for sound (not decided yet).
1x SD card slot for your ROM copies,
1x USB for upgrading.
1x More on board RAM memory, than needed to play all NEO GEO games.
Thats about it.
No harddisk,
No fans,
No moving parts,
No PC,
No software emulation,
No operating system,
No lag,
Just Real Hardware...
All we need is love :blah:
Anyone interested?
Just sign below :-)
I think thats about it. I think I could get it ready october-november, if some one want to beta test.
In October we will see how many games i have managed to support. But It will be total mayhem in the beginning and it could be good with some beta testers with balls of steel, there will be hundreds of games to test. I will be doing much of the initial testing on another platform starting in about 4 weeks, but will try to get this dedicated JAMMA platform as fast as possible. And I will have one month of research until then... No rocket science, but it will be a small steep for man but a big steep for gaming :cheers: I have to get some girls givi´n me some sweet lovin to manage this :afro:
Well this is the new dawn of hardware, I think we are somewhere around 1998 in MAME time at the moment. And we have some catching up to do...
And I think 1998, 1999 might be some fine years before the new Melania.
And I have reserved 100% of my time one year from now to hardware. I'm going to study asic design and custom computers fore one year. I think they made a c64 in a joystick, and now I want to make an entire arcade hall in a game pad :censored:
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I'd say a compliment would be:
P1
4 directional inputs
6 action inputs
1 P1 Start input
1 P1 Coin input
---
12 inputs
P2
4 directional inputs
6 action inputs
1 P2 Start input
1 P2 Coin input
---
12 inputs
P3
4 directional inputs
4 action inputs
1 P3 Start input
1 P3 Coin input
---
10 inputs
P4
4 directional inputs
4 action inputs
1 P4 Start input
1 P4 Coin input
---
10 inputs
1 Exit Input
1 Pause Input
TOTAL: 46
Will there be any sort of software interface to assign all this in each game, similar to the current MAME settings menu? For Jamma boards that don't have on board light gun hook-ups (for example) will it be able to to tell there's a light gun present? I'm how you'll be able to interface controllers with the Jamma boards. Interface and moving through the roms will also need to be somewhat configurable, perhaps by using the file structure present on the SD card.
If speed is capping just north of neo-geo games a lot of the functionality of those extra analog inputs might go unused or at least underused. I wouldn't expect this to run NFL Blitz or even CarnEvil but if it can't run Area 51 at full speed then it will be disappointing for a lot of users just on the light gun side of things.
Another question is how will it present vector images and what sort of image adjustment if any will be onboard? Case in point, MAME displays vector like crap. Getting vector to look remotely decent on anything but a vector monitor is a trick. AAE is a passable solution but is very resource intensive (not to mention a completely dead project), is this project going to be able to address this? This isn't a have to have to but surely would be a nice to have.
I'm down to test and hope you are able to produce a great product.
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A few of us currently use a controller to control a servo to switch joysticks from 8-way to 4-way etc, could something like this be built into the card?
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A few of us currently use a controller to control a servo to switch joysticks from 8-way to 4-way etc, could something like this be built into the card?
Along the same lines, maybe two outputs for monitor rotation: 1 for rotating it horizontal, another for rotating it vertical
Scott
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Has anybody mentioned LED controller?
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A few of us currently use a controller to control a servo to switch joysticks from 8-way to 4-way etc, could something like this be built into the card?
Well it would be fully possible to use one dedicated output for it. But you would have to connect a separate board that controls these servos. There would not be enough power for that on the main board.
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A few of us currently use a controller to control a servo to switch joysticks from 8-way to 4-way etc, could something like this be built into the card?
Along the same lines, maybe two outputs for monitor rotation: 1 for rotating it horizontal, another for rotating it vertical
Scott
Well that would be needed I guess, could be handy for testing purposes, and simple trouble shooting. The chip I will be using has versions that have over 600 I/O pins. The only thing is that pins that is used for more unusual things, has to have support from another board with the extra stuff needed. At this point it looks like I could place two 2x20 headers on the board for dedicated I/O stuff. Would that be enough? Any one that want to count up things?
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Has anybody mentioned LED controller?
What should that be used for? Any good examples?
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I'd say a compliment would be:
P1
4 directional inputs
6 action inputs
1 P1 Start input
1 P1 Coin input
---
12 inputs
P2
4 directional inputs
6 action inputs
1 P2 Start input
1 P2 Coin input
---
12 inputs
P3
4 directional inputs
4 action inputs
1 P3 Start input
1 P3 Coin input
---
10 inputs
P4
4 directional inputs
4 action inputs
1 P4 Start input
1 P4 Coin input
---
10 inputs
1 Exit Input
1 Pause Input
TOTAL: 46
Well that could be added. My only concern is that the main board doesn't get cluttered with odd stuff. So it has to be added in a manageable way. And things that belongs in groups, is best managed if they isn't split up on several connectors. 2x20 headers could be one way to add other boards with hard drive cables. Any one else that know ready made cables that would be good to use?
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Will there be any sort of software interface to assign all this in each game, similar to the current MAME settings menu? For Jamma boards that don't have on board light gun hook-ups (for example) will it be able to to tell there's a light gun present? I'm how you'll be able to interface controllers with the Jamma boards. Interface and moving through the roms will also need to be somewhat configurable, perhaps by using the file structure present on the SD card.
I would like to stay away from software interfaces as much as possible. One way to avoid this would be to use dedicated I/O. With this new board we don't have to stay compatible with any PC software. The only thing is the cabinets and the old games.
How to manage game switching is something that has to come from actual needs. One important need is to be able to switch games without adding anything extra to a original cabinet. Any other thoughts about that is welcome.
I would say that we use dedicated I/O for light guns.
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Another question is how will it present vector images and what sort of image adjustment if any will be onboard? Case in point, MAME displays vector like crap. Getting vector to look remotely decent on anything but a vector monitor is a trick. AAE is a passable solution but is very resource intensive (not to mention a completely dead project), is this project going to be able to address this? This isn't a have to have to but surely would be a nice to have.
I'm down to test and hope you are able to produce a great product.
Well I wont make any raster conversion of old vector games, thats for sure. If it would be possible to convert CRT's to vector monitors, than I could add support for that. If someone would like a conversion, they wold have to convert the vector-signals outside the board :lol Maybe I will do some conversion for testing games. But I think the real stuff is better.
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If speed is capping just north of neo-geo games a lot of the functionality of those extra analog inputs might go unused or at least underused. I wouldn't expect this to run NFL Blitz or even CarnEvil but if it can't run Area 51 at full speed then it will be disappointing for a lot of users just on the light gun side of things.
Well I don't quite understand. And I can only read between the lines. The only thing I could say is that there won't be any software emulation of things. As all things will be implemented in hardware, the only lag would be something that existed in the original game.
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8x analog input channels.
Hard Drivin and Race Drivin (sit down) use a 10 turn pot for the wheel,
2 standard pots for the gear shifter, pot for gas, analog clutch and analog brake.
Thats 6 pots per player, and two machines can be linked up.. for a total of 12 analog inputs.
Theres actually an along seat sensor too.. but, nobody really needs that functionality,
unless you are going for full arcade level replacement. The seat sensor is for activating an electromagnet, to lock the seat in place.
As for optical inputs... I think 6 is about right. There is an 8 player sprint game... but its doubtful anyone would hook that up and play it. As said, there are games like Rampart with 3 trackballs. Some driving games like supersprint have 3 optical wheels + 3 analog (pot) pedals.
Well I could make more analog inputs. Is 16 enough? The only concern is is that the board gets filled with stuff that cost extra and won't be used. If necessary I could add some sort of communication port to add support for enhancements.
1x VGA connector with separate graphics output, not the same signals as those on the JAMMA connector.
What about games that use multiple monitors? TX-1 is a great multi-monitor game.
Ninja Warriors & Darius has a few versions with 2 and 3 monitors. And if you want to run two (or more) racing cabinets linked up.. you would need more too. (unless you are going to make it so that linked games need two separate boards + a lan style link cable...
VGA and RGB are great.. but I also think adding component would be good too. Its pretty easy to find a spare Component based TV for use in a cabinet. Or at least make it so a dongle could be used to convert the VGA to a component output.
Personally, I cant stand to see games on a typical PC monitor. It just doesnt look right.
Well I could add support for three monitors. But in this case maybe I could make hi speed serial wires. So you could add external video DAC's. Don't want the main board to get cluttered.
1x 3.5mm stereo audiojack or 2x RCA for sound (not decided yet).
Why not quadraphonic output? Older 80s games like Sega's "Turbo", has 3 speakers. I believe TX-1 has 4 speakers. Many racers have subwoofers in the seats. And if you run two racers linked... you would also be missing the output for the other players sounds.
Another cool project/ability would be the ability to display Vector games on a REAL Vector monitor. There used to be a multi-vector board called the ZVG. However, it was expensive.. and the emulation it used for the games was not that good. They never seemed to update the software.. and the hardware runs are small to non-existent.
Also, you didnt mention if force-feedback is included. Many racing games use force feedback wheels. Some use motors to move the cabinets. Standup Outrun has a simple but awesome shaker motor assembly. Some games have 3d lcd shutter glasses, like the Awesome Continental Circus. Some games, like Road Riot, and Qbert have a knocker coil that fires if you have been hit / killed. Terminator 2, has 2 guns, each of which has a kicker coil that vary's its rapidfire rate based on the games energy levels.
Personally, Id rather see things like this added.. that Mame currently has neglected... and is nearly impossible for the average to above average person, to make possible.
Well I could add more audio channels. But it has to be via standard serial communication used for DAC's or by PWM. Then you could add just one transistor and a RC filter for each extra audio channel. How many channels is needed?
Well force feedback could be supported. I don't know much about how it's controlled, I have to read up on it. Any links for reading?
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John, rather than fill this post with quotes I'll just add some comments and questions since I think we're all tracking the above:
I haven't quite wrapped my head around how all this works so my questions about controller assignment and top speed may be out of left field. If it's all hardware run with no emulation what roms won't be supported? Is there a year benchmark where the hardware to run the game is just too beefy? Like Super Model 3 type stuff? I don't know how to properly ask this question, it came from your comment about having enough RAM to support all NeoGeo games, sorry for the confusion.
There are a lot of nice to have features that are starting to get integrated into the hobby such as auto rotating 4way to 8way joysticks that cue off the ROM being played, LED lit buttons and features that display what controls to be used and provide light shows, auto rotating monitors that match the original games screen orientation; however, the original games didn't have these features. If cramping the board is an issue I'd say that these features are top candidates for the cutting room floor. I think that a cool phase two project would be a supplemental board that supported this kind of stuff, but these features rely on information about the ROM that is found in MAME and use software to call the hardware required (either stepper motor controller, servo controller, or LED controller board).
Like I said, vector would be nice but isn't necessary, if it gets cut because it would be a compromise I say that's fine.
Xiaou2's Hard Drivin question is the perfect example of why being able to daisy chain the boards would be a great functionality. I know multiple arcade games (SW Racer being one, Hard Drivin being another) that allowed machines to be connected and I think 8 analog is more than plenty. I know the modern games used an optical cable to link but really whatever does the trick would be fine.
Component? Really? X2, buy an adapter.
Support for two monitors would be great but anything more than that and I lean back towards a link solution. Kills clutter, add functionality, satisfies the what-if-ers.
Having 2.1 audio should be enough.
As for controller inputs I think that four groupings would be fine. P1-P4. All can share a ground or have a ground for each set. Either way, tho most here will prefer a shared ground for all. As for what types of connectors to use I like pins like on the Xin-Mo encoders but others prefer solder points or screw terminals.
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For your insight, what I'm going to talk about down here, is the actual card that is going to be made. New hardware support can be made after the card is shipped. The difference between this solution and a PC, is that with this new stand alone card, you can make all the wiring by yourself. If you want something extra, you just have to add passive wiring to make things work (or basic components in some cases). If you want something extra, you just plug in a cable to one of the headers, and you can make all your wiring on another passive card inside your cabinet. This makes it possible to make all the connections in your cabinet before you attach the JAMMA+ board.
But as this will be a standard JAMMA+ board. You will get support for most things without any wiring at all. The JAMMA connector makes the board self sufficient. But the card also has VGA, and RCA. If you want to use this board without any cabinet. You have to use a converter (that you buy or build yourself) to add joysticks and power to the board.
I haven't quite wrapped my head around how all this works so my questions about controller assignment and top speed may be out of left field. If it's all hardware run with no emulation what roms won't be supported? Is there a year benchmark where the hardware to run the game is just too beefy? Like Super Model 3 type stuff? I don't know how to properly ask this question, it came from your comment about having enough RAM to support all NeoGeo games, sorry for the confusion.
Well NEO GEO has cartridges with ROM. For flexibility this new board (that needs a name) will load all ROM files in to RAM instead. So the machine will need at least 128Mb of RAM. There will be no emulation of hardware in software. All old hardware will be emulated in real copies of the hardware. As this is the case, there is no reason to use a benchmark. It's only a question if the card have enough gates to fit all a copy of a certain hardware. And concerning processor speed, I think it only will be possible to implement processors up to 100Mhz-140Mhz max. That will be up to anything up to about year 1997-1999. But there can be a problem to make certain mass of logic fit. It's about spending about $150 to make it able to run everything up to this around 1998. But there won't be any support for these fancy stuff for a few years anyway. Yes, someone has to make all the logic designs that copies the hardware of the original games.
There are a lot of nice to have features that are starting to get integrated into the hobby such as auto rotating 4way to 8way joysticks that cue off the ROM being played, LED lit buttons and features that display what controls to be used and provide light shows, auto rotating monitors that match the original games screen orientation; however, the original games didn't have these features. If cramping the board is an issue I'd say that these features are top candidates for the cutting room floor. I think that a cool phase two project would be a supplemental board that supported this kind of stuff, but these features rely on information about the ROM that is found in MAME and use software to call the hardware required (either stepper motor controller, servo controller, or LED controller board).
Well with the design I'm thinking of now, it will be possible to support almost any controllers. The issue is only to make support for all games. The issue is only to reserve I/O pins on the headers for certain things. Most of that work will be done after the hardware is released, as you can upgrade the hardware via USB. It will be the people that have these new boards, that has to come with reasonable suggestions about what is going to be implemented on what pins. Then we can make these new upgrades via USB.
Like I said, vector would be nice but isn't necessary, if it gets cut because it would be a compromise I say that's fine.
Well support of vector displays is no problem, it can be handled by a USB-upgrade.
[...]
Support for two monitors would be great but anything more than that and I lean back towards a link solution. Kills clutter, add functionality, satisfies the what-if-ers.
Having 2.1 audio should be enough.
As for controller inputs I think that four groupings would be fine. P1-P4. All can share a ground or have a ground for each set. Either way, tho most here will prefer a shared ground for all. As for what types of connectors to use I like pins like on the Xin-Mo encoders but others prefer solder points or screw terminals.
As standard there will be 4 audio channels, and 2 monitor connections out of the box. The JAMMA connector, the VGA connector, and a RCA stereo pair will take care of this.
Anything else can get support by dedicating I/O pins on the headers. To make almost anything fit, I will put three 40pin headers on the board, that will give about 100 I/O pins, for spinners, light guns, trackballs, extra monitors, sound channels, analog inputs, servo control, led controls, force feedback, multi cabinet communication, and what ever. And all can be handled without fancy extra hardware that you cant build by yourself. It's just a USB-upgrade away.
But as you understand someone has to write all logic descriptions. And that is what I am intending to do. I can right away say that there will be support for at least 20 games minimum by the end of this year. But I will do my best to make support for over 100 in the beginning of next year. And I'm heading for 200 games to be ready by next summer. But until then it will be a lot of testing. One problem as I see it will be compile time. I will need some immense amount of commuter power to make this happen. I don't know for sure, but I think the compile time for one new game will be like an hour or more (the work done by the computer to make the design fit into the new JAMMA card).
So I think I will need lots lots lots of help testing games, and get feed back on what is not working, to make this happen.
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Sign me up as a game tester. As I live near you and have cabinets to test the card in this is a no-brainer. Add to that my vast knowledge on 1985-1990 arcade games as I know most of the most known games better than my own pocket. :cheers:
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Well I have started to design the card today. And I now have the dimensions for the board, and it's quite small. And I have also looked at what parts to fit on to the board.
But there is one drastic decision that has to be made. This is your choice...
"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -Morpheus
Either the card will cost about 200 euro, and you will get something that is quite okay by todays standard, it will be a little better than anything similar out there. Or you pay 400 euro and get something that will handle memory 32 times faster than anything like this. The card will get a lot easier to program also.
What do you think, 32 times faster or slower memory? I think that with the cheaper alternative you will get something that is good. But with the faster alternative, it will be something to grow in. The main difference is that it will handle 3D graphics with large textures without any problems. And it will be easier to implement games that use many more advanced CPU's at the same time. So I think it would also be easier to get more games to work, and that would speed up the pace, and bring more games to the platform.
But the card with the lower cost, could possibly gain more users in the beginning.
But I'm unsure what to do, what do you think. Double the stakes, or stay safe. What do you think honestly? :dunno
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Has anybody mentioned LED controller?
What should that be used for? Any good examples?
Blinking start lights (After Burner, Outrun etc), weapon lights (Spy hunter), patrol lights (Chase HQ) or a knocker (Q-Bert). Just to mention some examples =)
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That's about what a computer costs to run the more recent 3D games, if your card can keep up and run the more modern stuff + be able to natively accept the controls mentioned above I think that going with the pricey one is really the only choice. If we're going to be crippled in speed why would we bother? I don't want to have all these awesome controls and not be able to use them on the newer games.
Incidentally would you be able to make a board that would allow the controls mentioned to be recognized by windows? If you could crack the real optical gun to windows/MAME nut you'd have a helluva product right there. The only product out there that tries is called USB2Gun by Global VR and nobody seems to have gotten it working worth a damn. A replacement is badly needed, one preferably that doesn't cost $300 either.
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Has anybody mentioned LED controller?
What should that be used for? Any good examples?
Blinking start lights (After Burner, Outrun etc), weapon lights (Spy hunter), patrol lights (Chase HQ) or a knocker (Q-Bert). Just to mention some examples =)
Thanks, that clarifies.
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That's about what a computer costs to run the more recent 3D games, if your card can keep up and run the more modern stuff + be able to natively accept the controls mentioned above I think that going with the pricey one is really the only choice. If we're going to be crippled in speed why would we bother? I don't want to have all these awesome controls and not be able to use them on the newer games.
Incidentally would you be able to make a board that would allow the controls mentioned to be recognized by windows? If you could crack the real optical gun to windows/MAME nut you'd have a helluva product right there. The only product out there that tries is called USB2Gun by Global VR and nobody seems to have gotten it working worth a damn. A replacement is badly needed, one preferably that doesn't cost $300 either.
Well I could easily make a graphics card for arcade monitors. And to make it work with a optical gun would be a piece of cake. But I cant do that card right now, I have to focus. That there is no cards that works with light guns and windows, is only a good reason that they should use something that works.
Ok, with the more expensive card it would be a lot simpler to make support for newer games, thats for sure. And if we talk about 3D, I think the more expensive card even could make a playstation2 look weak if you made a dedicated game for the card.
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Sign me up as a game tester. As I live near you and have cabinets to test the card in this is a no-brainer. Add to that my vast knowledge on 1985-1990 arcade games as I know most of the most known games better than my own pocket. :cheers:
Well that would be a wonderful resource to make this work, and get as many games converted as possible, in the least amount of time.
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Btw, this will only use +12V for power, right? I want a power LED at least and perhaps some other LEDs for each major part of the card's logic components. This way, you can troubleshoot very quickly if thunder strikes and something smells burnt in your cabinet. Power LED is the most important one though.
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Btw, this will only use +12V for power, right? I want a power LED at least and perhaps some other LEDs for each major part of the card's logic components. This way, you can troubleshoot very quickly if thunder strikes and something smells burnt in your cabinet. Power LED is the most important one though.
Well thats a good idea. I think that you would like to know if a game is loaded and up and running or not for example.
Well it could be possible to add a diagnostics mode. This could be used to check that everything connected to the board on the headers are correctly connected and working. It could also be used to test joysticks and buttons and anything else connected to the board, it could be really handy.
The 12 volt won't be used for anything actually. I will probably only pass it though to the headers. If you want to use a more simpler power-supply, it's okay to go ahead and do that. And all extra stuff like converters and other things is something that I will cut down to a minimum. I will do anything in my power, to make the board 100% self sufficient. On the card there will be plenty and extreme good possibilities to convert any signal or video signals and other stuff. This is possible thanks to the reconfigurable nature of the hardware. So what type of conversion for things is it that you use extra stuff for today? What would be a comprehensive list?
And there are some things that I have been thinking about, and that are image enhancing. Today if you want to by a standard monitor you have to buy a LCD. And that is in most cases not on pair with the resolutions used in arcade games. What I am thinking of doing is to use algorithms to dramatically enhance the picture quality and resolutions, with algorithms specially designed for arcade graphics. This could be used to make the picture quality much better. Or it could be used make a low res image from this enhanced graphics, compatible with the pixel size on your LCD monitor. The algorithms will we be first class with sub pixel scrolling and movement predictions, and sub pixel edge, line and field detection. All these image enhancements could be turned off, or fine-tuned.
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I think the up-scaling algorithms is a good idea, preferably with scanlines as the original low res games are drawn with this in mind, but I also hope that this is something that doesn't add to the price of the board. Also, will up-scaling and image processing add lag to the video if it's done the way you have in mind?
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I think the up-scaling algorithms is a good idea, preferably with scanlines as the original low res games are drawn with this in mind, but I also hope that this is something that doesn't add to the price of the board. Also, will up-scaling and image processing add lag to the video if it's done the way you have in mind?
Well it won't cost anything extra to do this. And it won't add any lag, it will be done in real-time in hardware, without any software intervention. Well gaps between the scan lines will be there for anyone that want this. The good thing with making functionality in real hardware logic, is that you can add things without compromising 100% speed, or add any lag. Even if you use 1, 2 and 3 processors or more, each processor will always have 100% speed. This will not be a software emulation, everything will be done in hardware. The only software will be the original ROM files from the games.
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Sounds great! Oh, another thing I want for the card itself is two banks of DIP switches for game settings and a TEST switch. Most older games used DIP switches to control credits, difficulty, screen flipping etc. Newer games use a TEST menu that either use the cabinets TEST switch (on the JAMMA) or an on-board test button. I think there are a couple of arcade systems that use more than 2 banks (of 10 switches), but I don't know how common they are.
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Sounds great! Oh, another thing I want for the card itself is two banks of DIP switches for game settings and a TEST switch. Most older games used DIP switches to control credits, difficulty, screen flipping etc. Newer games use a TEST menu that either use the cabinets TEST switch (on the JAMMA) or an on-board test button. I think there are a couple of arcade systems that use more than 2 banks (of 10 switches), but I don't know how common they are.
Well that would be an idea, if someone only want to put one ROM the SD card. That could be used to start games as on the original game cards, without any extra configuring. But i think it might be confusing if you want to have many ROM sets on the SD card. Any thoughts about that?
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Well, unless you want to program in a software emulator for the hardware DIPs, I don't see how configuring a game would be possible? But if some kind of frontend is made for the board, it could of course have a DIP switch tab or something for each game. Or if the scenario would play out like this:
Example game Flying Shark:
1. Press TEST button in cabinet (JAMMA)
2. Your game card opens up a dynamic menu saying:
THIS GAME USES DIP SWITCHES FOR GAME SETTINGS - USE P1 JOYSTICK AND P1 BUTTON1 TO ENABLE/DISABLE SWITCHES
BANK1 - SW01 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW02 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW03 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW04 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW05 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW06 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW07 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW08 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW09 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW10 - OFF (DEFAULT)
TO SHOW BANK2, PRESS P1 BUTTON2
TO EXIT BACK INTO GAME PRESS P1 START OR TEST BUTTON
3. Game is restarted with the new settings.
This might be better than DIP switches, especially if the switches' functions would be mapped out so the user don't need a manual to figure out the settings, just like how it is in MAME. :cheers:
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Well, unless you want to program in a software emulator for the hardware DIPs, I don't see how configuring a game would be possible? But if some kind of frontend is made for the board, it could of course have a DIP switch tab or something for each game. Or if the scenario would play out like this:
Example game Flying Shark:
1. Press TEST button in cabinet (JAMMA)
2. Your game card opens up a dynamic menu saying:
THIS GAME USES DIP SWITCHES FOR GAME SETTINGS - USE P1 JOYSTICK AND P1 BUTTON1 TO ENABLE/DISABLE SWITCHES
BANK1 - SW01 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW02 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW03 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW04 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW05 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW06 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW07 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW08 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW09 - OFF (DEFAULT)
BANK1 - SW10 - OFF (DEFAULT)
TO SHOW BANK2, PRESS P1 BUTTON2
TO EXIT BACK INTO GAME PRESS P1 START OR TEST BUTTON
3. Game is restarted with the new settings.
This might be better than DIP switches, especially if the switches' functions would be mapped out so the user don't need a manual to figure out the settings, just like how it is in MAME. :cheers:
Well you can have (something like BIOS for PC) that could be used for "DIP switch" settings. Well, maybe it could be frustrating to have the cab open for changing those DIP switches, and also to remember what the switches does.
Another issue is how to change games. And settings for that, could also be set in "BIOS". This "BIOS" could also be used for testing the connected hardware like joysticks and other things. And some compliment with a LED for indicating...
1) board power
2) game running
3) BIOS running
4) "short circuit detected" indication.
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Yes, some sort of SETTINGS or SETUP-like thing would be good, I just don't want to see this thing end up without access to per-game settings, especially when settings are originally only available from DIPs. Even as it will need a BIOS of sorts. Are you familiar with NEO-GEO Universal BIOS? http://unibios.free.fr/ (http://unibios.free.fr/)
Oh, and it would be cool to have some DSP effects to put into the sound output, like STEREO WIDENER for MONO games to take advantage of the RCA ports?
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Yes, some sort of SETTINGS or SETUP-like thing would be good, I just don't want to see this thing end up without access to per-game settings, especially when settings are originally only available from DIPs. Even as it will need a BIOS of sorts. Are you familiar with NEO-GEO Universal BIOS? http://unibios.free.fr/ (http://unibios.free.fr/)
Oh, and it would be cool to have some DSP effects to put into the sound output, like STEREO WIDENER for MONO games to take advantage of the RCA ports?
Could you tell me more what "without access to per-game settings" is in your mind? Exactly what phenomenon or consequence is it that you would like to be avoided, could you explain? Do you have any examples?
I will check out the NEO-GEO Universal BIOS. NEO-GEO game support will be one of the first things added. And I will probably try to fix that around September.
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With per-game settings I mean:
Coin-mode (1 coin, 2 coin, FREE PLAY etc)
Difficulty
Attract sound ON/OFF
Continue ON/OFF
Personally, I always turn FREE PLAY on, Attract sound OFF and in some cases, Continue OFF as well. So these settings are nice to have access to.
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With per-game settings I mean:
Coin-mode (1 coin, 2 coin, FREE PLAY etc)
Difficulty
Attract sound ON/OFF
Continue ON/OFF
Personally, I always turn FREE PLAY on, Attract sound OFF and in some cases, Continue OFF as well. So these settings are nice to have access to.
Ok, do you want these extra setting to be individual to every ROM set?
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Well, yes. As there's no standard per game system even, that's why I thought about adding real DIP switches for convenience, but having a DIP switch menu only, saving your settings on the memory card in it's own format (.cfg) would be better, as if you forget to change a hardware dip back to OFF, the next game you load would end up using a setting you might not want. It's worth thinking through I think.
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Oh, and it would be cool to have some DSP effects to put into the sound output, like STEREO WIDENER for MONO games to take advantage of the RCA ports?
Well I have been thinking about something like this as well. Maybe a multi band compressor/expander, limiter and EQ and a touch of reverb?
And a stereo widener would be a good idea also, as you mention. And i think it would be possible to control so that the sounds from left and right sounds further away also. I will try that when the time for that comes.
So in that case, there will be enhancements for sound and picture for anyone that would like that. It won't be that hard to do.
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Regarding video, would it be of any use to add display port connector to the card? It would then be able to send video ans sound over the cable to a TV or display. What do you think, is it sufficient with VGA and JAMMA RGB or would displayport be of any use?
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Display port? Is that like, what Apple computers use?
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Display port? Is that like, what Apple computers use?
Yes.
And it's a royalty free standard from VESA. It's like HDMI without DRM and license fee's.
But it's unnecessary to make it mandatory, if no one wanted to use it. Signals like that could be put on one of the headers.
One thing I have been thinking about is to make a developer kit, made for new Shoot 'em up games development. As this card has some insane parallel computing power and ASIC emulation, I think it will take about 20 years before it could possibly be emulated on a PC. Any thoughts on that? As it's also possible to encrypt games that will only be able to run on one specific card. This could be used for new arcade games.
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What code languages would work on this kit?
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What code languages would work on this kit?
Well almost any language. But if I made a arcade SDK (software development kit), I will make special support for one or two languages that will make it extra easy to make games. And if anyone has suggestions then I can see what I can do.
I have been reading up what the chip I am going to use can do. And it looks like it's extra suitable to run MIPS processors. You could have at least 50 pieces of MIPS processors at 100Mhz without any problems. Each capable of 300 million instructions per second. It was MIPS processors was used for nintendo64 and playstation2.
And I 'm thinking about putting 2 real hard ARM processors on the board, each running at 800Mhz, but I don't know if the two ARM processors will fit the 400 euro budget right now, and I don't want to step over that line. But in any case, there will be loads of power in this JAMMA card.
And at the moment I'm looking a lot at different memory configurations for bigger external memories. This to maximize the preformance within this budget. It would be fun if you could outperform many of the current systems. Making this board like a real up to date arcade platform. But the interesting thing is that you can come up with new processor configurations after this card has been shipped via USB-update.
But how this platform can be used is somewhat depending on what people want this to go. It can change over time, after that people has bought cards. You don't need to buy any new hardware, to make this platform evolve over time and improve it's capabilities. So if I say I think of doing this and that, doesn't say that it can be changed over time to meet what people want to use this for. The door is open for anything.
So there is basically no limitations what languages that can be used to program this platform. And as it will be capable of emulating a lot of systems directly in hardware, the possibilities is somewhat endless.
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Well if there's gonna be other outputs for video, audio and controls than the JAMMA edge, perhaps adding a power input (4 pin ATX power input or a +5V only?) on the card makes sense as it could then be hooked up to a modern screen and game controllers like a very small but super powerful gaming console without the use of a JAMMA cabinet? I can't imagine a sexier piece of hardware than a
completely DRM free gaming platform
running on a small power supply and
outputting low res AND possibly high res (at least 480p) graphics
without lagging controls or 30fps video.
:cheers:
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Well if there's gonna be other outputs for video, audio and controls than the JAMMA edge, perhaps adding a power input (4 pin ATX power input or a +5V only?) on the card makes sense as it could then be hooked up to a modern screen and game controllers like a very small but super powerful gaming console without the use of a JAMMA cabinet? I can't imagine a sexier piece of hardware than a
completely DRM free gaming platform
running on a small power supply and
outputting low res AND possibly high res (at least 480p) graphics
without lagging controls or 30fps video.
:cheers:
Well I think it is possible to generate Full HD in 60p with this system or even higher resolutions. Well I should see what I can do. The biggest problem is probably to make people program games for your system. And I don't know how to overcome that. But one possible solution to that, is to make it run games from all kinds of platforms. But what else?
And you would be able to make games rock solid for this machine with zero latency. The simple reason for that, is you can make anything 100% predictable. Every little detail could run in it's own processor or custom logic.
I' have been looking into how to turn it stand alone later on, I will see what I can come up with. But any ideas is welcome, just like your thoughts. But I have a solution for powering it up for a low cost.
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Not sure if it's been mentioned again, but having only a VGA output is seriously limiting options for some setups, especially mini desktop cabinets which usually use composite or S-Video only LCD panels. Having DVI-D would also be great because VGA sucks. And yes I realize the irony of that statement after asking for composite and S-Video outputs. ;D
And about the whole "automated" cabinets with rotating screens, dynamic marquees, auto 4/8-way joysticks, lighted buttons, etc... keep it simple.
For example, dynamic marquees can vary in aspect ratio, in resolution, in color depth, etc. Dynamic joysticks may not be limited to 4/8-way, etc.
So as I said above, just send the ROM filename on a serial port or SPI pins or something, the external peripherals controllers will take care of their own stuff with their own internal settings for each ROM filename. It's future-proof, upgrade-proof and allows all kinds of customizations.
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Interesting project...
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Long time lurker here, with new account, so I'm aware I don't have any credits yet and this might be seen as funny moment to unburrow.
However, if you're keeping stats, I'm willing to spend up to and maybe more than the upper limit of the budget that was mentioned.
I could be tempted to fork up part in advance if needed for prototyping.
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I would hold up on talking money until there is a prototype, schematics, or at least until the design and idea is vetted by a known EE.
Also, a question to the moderators. The logged IP from users at the bottom right, do you ever compare it with other users to see if they are clones?
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I met with John Blund this week (we live in the same town) and we had a long chat about this. He will be receiving the hardware this will a be based on on Monday I think. Hopefully he'll have some news to share soon.
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I really want to bump this thread to see what - if any - progress has been made on this project. Really sounded interesting.