The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Monitor/Video Forum => Topic started by: El Pato on January 21, 2003, 07:18:05 pm
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I am in the process of building a cabinet and have decided to go the route of using a TV as my monitor.
I have researched and read many posts on this forum (especially from SNAAAKE) about TV w/ S-video being subpar when compared to the original Arcade monitors. I would love to get a Wells Gardner or Happs 27", but cost is just the overriding factor.
On researching video cards, I discovered that the newer ATI Radeon's (8500+) have component video adapters available. They only have drivers for Windows 2000 or XP so I am sure that will eat up some overhead as far as processor performance goes (I was wanting to run in DOS).
Is anybody out there using this adapter? If so, could you tell me how you like it compared to S-video? Would going the way of component video be worth it in terms of Video quality vs. hit to processor performance?
Thanks in advance for any feedback.
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Can't be much help about these video cards (although component SHOULD be better than S-video, but why is it an adaptor?)...
I just though I'd ask what spec your PC is. If it is reasonably powerful and you are running a newish version of MAME then you may actually get better performance in Windows than DOS - I did :)
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On any video card I have tested, component video is much LOWER quality than s-video.
If you are using an S-Vid solution be sure to get a tv with at least 550 lines of Hz res.
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Well I haven't seen a video card with component out before so I don't know. Most just have composite and s-video out. How does this component 'adaptor' work?
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Thanks for the responses.
I was surprised myself when I saw the component interface for the ATI Radeon 8500.
The URL to the adaptor is:
http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html (http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html)
If anybody thinks would be an improvement over S-video please let me know. Thanks
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I personally prefer rgb (eg rgb scart) over s-video always. Since the component is coming from the vga connector using this adaptor, and I believe component is essentially rgb, then I would expect this to be superior to s-video. ATI mention that it is the highest quality out for TV's.
But not many TV's have component in - does your TV?
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i dont know about mame but its GREAT improvement over s-video when i use my ps2...the color is really nice and nearly NO dot crowling..that for ps2..ps2 looks REALLY(i mean REALLY) nice with component..if i were you..i give it a try..I mean..the colors are goin seperate(ya got R G B sort of) so it should give you a better picture then s-video..post your result if you decide to get that dongle..good luck ;) ;D
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I am sorry, I was referring to composite out. I have no experience with component out.
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I am sorry, I was referring to composite out. I have no experience with component out.
allright now i get it..i am like... "WAHHHH ???"..you said its "WORSE" and you were about 100% sure about this..
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Component video is the next best thing to RGB. This website has a comparison of svideo output vs Radeon component out.
http://www.radeon2.ru/konkurs_2/ypbpr.html (http://www.radeon2.ru/konkurs_2/ypbpr.html)
Force component output on any Radeon without buying the adpater.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212199&perpage=20&pagenumber=1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212199&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)
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Thanks for the links, Macros.
OK, this idea has intrigued me so much that I went ahead and purchased a Radeon 8500 OEM and am going to try the suggestion on the link above -- modifying an HD15 male VGA connector and doing the registry hack for Win98. If that doesn't work, I can always purchase the ATI dongle.
I was going to go for the Radeon 9000 but couldn't find anywhere on the ATI website where the dongle supported the 9000 even though the forum link in the post above alludes to the fact that it should.
OK, so, wish me luck and I will be sure to report my findings here soon.
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My own RGB vs. S-Video...
(http://www.oscarcontrols.com/video/test01.jpg)
(http://www.oscarcontrols.com/video/test02.jpg)
All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor (http://www.oscarcontrols.com/monitors.shtml). Obviously RGB is better than S-Video. I would imagine that component would be very similar to RGB, more so than S-video.
Check out www.oscarcontrols.com/video for more.
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THATs WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT... :D ;D
OSCAR,great picture..i got 2 if it helps anyone..
None is this are TVs..both pure RGB through scan converter.
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/p982c80c5a2a91d77b5bd5bad3af06f81/fce8c092.jpg)
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid43/pb0f1d36700a63eb9f254ae1b1c477150/fce8bff5.jpg)
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Looking at the above pics,
With S-Video the picture gets cut off at the top and bottom? Can the Vertical Adjustment of the TV (or CPU)correct this? The clarity of the RGB is much better, but it's something I can live with, but cut off pictures would be horrible.... I have an ATI all in wonder pro vid card, but no TV as of yet. Thanks in advance!
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No, I just didn't capture the entire screen in the photo. I cut off the top & bottom with the camera because I was zoomed in too close.
You most likely have software with your video card that will let you make adjustments (size/position) to the TV-out picture if your card isn't outputting correct, full screen video.
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whew... thanks for the info!
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There's definitely a noticeable difference in the pics. Is it even more noticeable in person - IE with moving video? I work as a visual effects editor and I see a huge difference between still image captures and actual moving footage. What looks decent as a still often looks MUCH worse moving due to pulsing and flickering colors and moire patterns, etc. Have you noticed that with the different inputs? Just curious.
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There's definitely a noticeable difference in the pics. Is it even more noticeable in person - IE with moving video? I work as a visual effects editor and I see a huge difference between still image captures and actual moving footage. What looks decent as a still often looks MUCH worse moving due to pulsing and flickering colors and moire patterns, etc. Have you noticed that with the different inputs? Just curious.
Oh for sure! When switching inputs you can see worlds of difference! It's hard to go back to s-video after using rgb. But that said, if you are using s-video now, chances are you think it looks great... I know I did for about a year. It's when you put them side-by-side that the differences really show up.
But to answer your question, yes, I believe the still photos give a false representation of true live motion. But when you are in the middle of a round of MvsC, they all kind of look the same to me... :)
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Anyone bought that dongle off of Ati's site? I'm really curious as I just ordered the Radeon 8500....
http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html
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What is your setup to run with Component connections?
I don't want to over spec my system. I'm looking at a 27" JVC AV27S33 for $299, a Radeon 8500 video card for about $100, and the component doggle for $44 shipped. Any suggestions on where I can save money?
I'm considering following the hack from the site Macros linked to, but I don't want to be limited to booting into Win98.
Are there any problems running Mame with Win2k? Is there a preferred OS to use when you are running a fast computer (ie. no need to run in DOS to save resources)?
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OK ... finally ... after many weeks of trial and turmoil (both with the cabinet and with real life work), I have finally finished my cabinet ... WITHOUT COMPONENT VIDEO.
I purchased the Adapter from ATI ($29 + $15 s/h = $44 yikes!!) and have had nothing but problems with the stupid thing. I have also written 3 e-mails to ATI asking them for help on the situation. Unfortunately they have yet to respond.
My video card is a Sapphire "Powered by" Radeon 8500LE.
My television is a 27" JVC-AV27230.
MY OS is WinXP Pro
The TV has both component and s-video connections and is all in all a pretty good tv for the money. I highly recommend it.
I have also read about the "powered by" Radeon's (that the video-out on them is inferior to that of the "built by" cards), but I must say that I am VERY satisfied with the s-video out on this card. No complaints here. The VGA and even the DVI-D work great too.
However, when I hook up the HDTV component video adapter to this card and connect it to the JVC, everything goes haywire. First off, I have been unable to get any color to be output from the adapter to the JVC. However, I hook up the JVC to my DVD player at home with the same component cables and get a color signal. So, I decided to connect the HDTV component adapter to a Dell projector with a "DVI-I to component" cable, and voila ... I get color. When I asked Sapphire about this phenomenon, they say I must be using PAL for the TV output. The Catalyst software doesn't support the PAL/NTSC distinction for YPrPb output, so I decided to ask ATI about this. It has been over two weeks with no response.
The difference between S-video and Component ouput on the Dell projector was highly noticeable. Component was MUCH better. However, there was still another problem with COMPONENT output from the HDTV adapter which I don't think I can ever get over unless they improve the Catalyst software. It seems that the adapter overscans the images to the TV by about 5%. This is a known issue and documented on the ATI website. I didn't think it would make that much of a difference .... it does. Just to give you an idea about how much of the screen is cutoff with this overscan ... the mouse completely disappears from view in each direction. It was nearly impossible for me to play any games with the command line mame because too much of the playing area was being cutoff. (I know I probably could use another version of Mame to display the game in its proper dimensions, but I don't want to do all this configuration if I don't have to.)
So, that's it. My guess is the output signal from the HDTV adapter only works on TV's that truly support HDTV not just the YPrPb inputs like the JVC I have. I have spent a lot of time researching this subject and just can't find any explanation as to why I can get color on the projector but not on the TV. ATI has not been one bit of help. The overscanning of the image is a huge pain anyway. I am just going to stick with s-video for now, and keep my $44 dongle handy just in case one of these days someone can help me get this thing to work.
For anyone else contemplating this route, I suggest to hold off for now. Even if you can get color out to your tv from the adapter, you will have to do a lot of customization to make the games playable on your arcade, and if you are going to do that, might as well go the route of a true arcade monitor.
So, that is my 2 cents. Hope it is helpful.
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What I liked about using a TV with Component inputs is the fact that you can use common parts in the cab. An arcade monitor is never going to be more than an arcade monitor, but at least a TV can be a TV.
You should try posting your problems on this thread:
Updated Link to the AV forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=212199&perpage=20&pagenumber=1)
Those guys seem to be some hard core mush heads. I wish you were able to get it working, because I would go with the Sapphire 8500 (which is probably 1/2 the cost of an ATI).
I'm glad to hear you like your JVC. I was going to take the cheap way out with an APEX 24" but the quality just wasn't there. It was a big turnaround to now be considering the JVC with Component connections (probably double the cost with the TV upgrade and a 8500 card instead of a 7000).
Another concern I have is with the 27" TV, it seems like it will be too big. Do you ever feel your 27" is too big (question to anyone).
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So is there any way to get this to work? Do all the models and manufacturers cards display no color with non-HD TVs? If so.. does anybody know what Sam's Club's return policy is on items like TVs? :'(
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This is the first that I have heard of the "no color" problem. I would be suprised if there isn't a fix available, it's probably just a matter of tracking it down. It's too bad that ATI hasn't replied, because the problem seems to be with their software, drivers, or dongle.
El Pato, I see you were going to try the hacked vga plug + registry entrys. Did you ever try going that route? I think I may put myself in the same boat as you, by buying a TV with component inputs and using S-Video until things are worked out. I guess I need the hardware first before I can try anything.
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El Pato, are you using the SVGA to Component adapter or the DVI to Component adapter? (not meant to be insulting, the ATI website is just confusing on what adapter to use for the 8500 series).
Just a side not, there is an updated Catalyst software download available that solves the overscan issue (I think). It is on the ATI website.
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Did you have your DIP on your HDTV adapter set to 480i?
One problem is that there are standard Component and HD Component inputs on TVs. The JVC has Standard Component and the ATI HDTV adapter may only work with HD Component input. I'm not sure about this.
However, 480i is standard TV output, so it seems that this mode should work on a normal TV. Give this a try if you have time. I think I read that you can override the dip settings in software. Make sure you are in 480i mode to see if that works.
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I'm interested in this topic also. Be sure to let us all know how it works out.
-Ace-
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Sorry Wienerdog. It has been a while since my last update. I have just enjoyed playing with the arcade rather than wasting my time ... which is what it seems I do everytime I start messing with the Component output. Thanks for the news on the new Catalyst driver. I appreciate it.
Anyway, I do not have any new news on the new Catalyst driver (3.2) working with my Sapphire card and JVC TV. I downloaded them (both Catalyst and the Control Panel), installed them, and I still get the top, bottom, and sides of the screen cut off on my TV as well as no color. The documentation states 720p is the best HDTV format for the overscan problem, but the little ol' JVC I have doesn't support that. 480i is still a mess, and everytime I try it, the driver resizes my display parameters to 720 x 480 and screws everything up display-wise for when I switch back to S-video.
For all practical purposes, I have given up. I still haven't heard anything from ATI. I am using the S-video with this TV and am VERY satisfied. I know the YPrPb would be better, but I don't have the time to mess with it anymore. I am getting married in 2 months and my fiance already went nuts with me building the arcade. I don't think she would go for me fiddling around with it and not playing it ... or letting her play it. Maybe when I get some free time, I will try to take a look at it. I have given my best effort on it. Sorry to disappoint everyone. If anyone has anymore questions, or would like me to try something else, I am all ears. I am just not up for being creative on my own anymore.
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Don't be sorry, your info has helped alot. I already have a Radeon AIW 8500 and I ordered the HDTV adapter, so I think I'll give it a try. The worst case is that I buy a TV and end up returning it if I'm not happy. I guess my only choice is if I go with the JVC that you have, or with another TV. I need to get it from Circuit City because I have some gift cards there. I think my options are your JVC, an RCA F27650, or a Panasonic PAN CT27G7SD. Perhaps I should take my computer to Circuit city and ask to try the TVs out to see if your probelm is isolated to the JVC.
Anyway, I guess I am beta tester #2.
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For all practical purposes, I have given up. I still haven't heard anything from ATI.
Nuts. I have the exact same TV as you (and I too am very happy with it), so I'm sorry to hear that this adapter possibly doesn't want to work with it.
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I have the exact same TV as you (and I too am very happy with it).
Sas, are you running S-Video now? What video card are you using and do you have any pictures?
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Sas, are you running S-Video now? What video card are you using and do you have any pictures?
My card is actually an old 8MB ATI All-In-Wonder Pro PCI, but it outputs pretty nicely.
It's not in my current cabinet - it's gonna be for my next one - but I have it nearby and can hook it up. Anything in particular you're wanting pictures of?
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Thanks for the offer, I'm okay now. I picked up my TV this weekend and will be getting the component adapter later this week. I'll put some pictures together of composite, s-video, and component (hopefully), and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).
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Wienerdog, which TV did you get? I'd love to see pictures and hear how hooking up the component adapter goes.
and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).
Hahahahaha.
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and then I'm sure snaaake will shoot me down with is "my screen is better than your screen" arcade monitor pictures (I can live with that).
HAH...HAH...HAH
Actually cant do it brother..dont have it anymore :(.
I will get you when I get my new monitor though.. :D ;D
PS:I am honestly interested in seeing how component out looks though..post em ! :)
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Wienerdog, which TV did you get? I'd love to see pictures and hear how hooking up the component adapter goes.
My rig:
TV -> 27" JVC AV-27S33
Video -> 128MB 8500 AIW (Built by ATI, of course)
HDTV -> DVI to Component
I am really hoping that my 8500 AIW card works with the HDTV adapter. My adapter will be here on Wednesday, so I'll try to buy some cables and be ready for it. I'm happy that I went the TV route, because the picture looks great with S-Video. To justify some of the expense, I am using this TV as my replacement TV in my basement game room. I understand the benefits of using a WG 9200, but the TV route fit my needs better and made me feel comfortable that I was at least getting a new TV out of this project.
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My rig:
TV -> 27" JVC AV-27S33
Video -> 128MB 8500 AIW (Built by ATI, of course)
HDTV -> DVI to Component
I have the JVC AV-27320, so I'm very curious to see if/how it works for ya!
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El Pato,
i got everything set up tonight and was getting a black and white image so I thought I was out of luck. While looking through the TV menus, I saw "V2 COMPONENT-IN <NO>". I changed that to Yes and got great color. I am having significant overscan problems but haven't had time to play with it yet.
I also downloaded a new set of drivers and Catalyst software before trying the adapter. Good luck. I'll try to post the pictures tomorrow.
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Wienerdog,
That is awesome. Although now I am pissed at myself for not even trying the "V2 component-In" setting. I guess I was so pigeon-holed with the problem being in the adapter/software/etc. that I didn't even spend that much time messing with the TV or better yet reading the TV Manual (.... it's a TV for crying out loud ... who ever reads a TV Manual?). Anyway, congrats. That overscan problem is pretty messy though. I will try to find some time to play around with it this weekend. Let me know if you make anymore progress.
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My own RGB vs. S-Video...
(http://www.oscarcontrols.com/video/test01.jpg)
(http://www.oscarcontrols.com/video/test02.jpg)
All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor (http://www.oscarcontrols.com/monitors.shtml). Obviously RGB is better than S-Video. I would imagine that component would be very similar to RGB, more so than S-video.
Check out www.oscarcontrols.com/video for more.
just out of interest, that is a tv your using right?
i mean, i can make my s-video picture look like yours if i turn the colour all the way up....
after tweaking it though, it looks just like you RGB picture (as far as i can tell - good colour, really sharp image)
but there are a few settings on my tv which help; there's a sharpness level (set to max), and something else (forgotten) that you can turn on and off (again, adjusts the sharpness)
*m
EDIT:
"All of these pics are taken from a 26" NEC rgb/vga presentation monitor." - duh! i didn't see that first time round!
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Unfortunately my pictures came out like junk (can't take a picture of the TV). I'm not even going to post them because they are misleading. In fact, I could match S-Video pictures to Component pictures that make the Component look better, or I could match pictures that make the S-Video look better. The bottom line is that the component always looks better.
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I am having significant overscan problems but haven't had time to play with it yet.
What do you mean by "overscan" problems?
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(http://home.attbi.com/~morrisonjim3/IMG_0358.JPG)
(http://home.attbi.com/~morrisonjim3/IMG_0357.JPG)
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What do you mean by "overscan" problems?
From ATI: "TVs overscan images, typically 5%, and this can result in part of the image being cut off the display."
Look at my pictures above, you can see all sides are cut off.
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Is that ATi's official response? If they recognize that this is a common problem with T.V.s why wouldn't they compensate for it?
El Pato, were you able to finally get the color working?
-Ace-
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No, AceTKK, I haven't actually tried yet. I will try this weekend. But, I am pretty confident given Wienerdog's instructions that I will be able to get color.
Wienerdog, I don't doubt you one bit that the component is better. When I compared the two on a projector, it was pretty substantial. Of course, that was on a $3k projector, and I should be able to see the difference. I even noticed a difference in the black and white on the TV. But, what on earth are you doing to compensate for the overscan problem? Are you just dealing with it, or are you configuring a different resolution via command-line in MAME? For me, the overscan was so annoying, even in black and white, I did not even want to think about how I was going to handle it for all the different games I was wanting to play. Just wondering.
BTW, those screen shots look pretty good .... make me jealous (except for the overscan part).
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I haven't been playing. I only have one computer and since you have to reboot into component, I haven't been connecting to my TV. I am actually surprised by how good the SVideo looks. With all the SVideo bashing, I figured it would be very good. I was happy enough with SVideo to wonder if it is worth buying the $45 adapter and the expensive component cable instead of using svideo. Obviously I need to do some more "testing" to get a better feel of the differences.
I don't know what to do about the overscan. I haven't looked into running at a different resolution in Mame, but that may the be the only answer. ATI was supposed to have addressed the overscan in the new compile of Catalyst, so I need to looking into that too. I may have overlooked some ATI settings that might solve the problem.
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I must chip in my 2 pence (or cents I guess!) here.
Component Video is the best possible connection for almost all kinds of displays IMO. I have a monster of a DVD player and the output on my Plasma screen is head and shoulders above that of S-video. For instance when i pause a DVD and compare the 2 outputs, component show so much more background detail it takes the piss. S-Video provides a good picture, don't get me wrong, but in the UK we are spoilt with genuine RGB through Scart leads for almost all electrical items. S just doesn't cut the mustard compared with RGB, or even better component. I suppose S might provide a smoother picture on older games as component can look quite blocky on low res games.
Don't forget the Component offers progressive scan modes for those that can use them. I've found that prog scan virtually eliminates 'jaggies' in modern games.
I assume the same will apply with regular pc monitors (as essentially the Plasma is a monitor).
If you can afford it, go component - you won't regret it.
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Okay, forget what I said about the expensive component cable. I do think it is worth it to go with component, if I can get the overscan issue worked out.
I'm not sure what parameters I need to set in mame to get the resolution to work out right, or if that could even help. To summarize, I still have a problem with only seeing part of the screen on the TV (the top and bottom of Galaga are cut off, etc).
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I'm not sure what parameters I need to set in mame to get the resolution to work out right, or if that could even help. To summarize, I still have a problem with only seeing part of the screen on the TV (the top and bottom of Galaga are cut off, etc).
Does it work well with horizontal games? There's the same problem with arcade monitors in with vertical games. Arcade monitors basically use 480i. Are you able to set which component output is used? If your TV can take progressive, switching to 480p should help greatly.
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It's possible that I don't understand how to change the settings, but I am not having any luck. I can't seem to improve the overscan to acceptable levels. Is anyone else working on this?
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Wienerdog, have you tried the avs forums? www.avsforum.com try asking in the htpc forum.
-Ace-
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I was told that I should set up a custom resolution in Powerstrip. I am trying to figure out the software, which is a pain in the butt. I don't know what I should be modifying, so I keep messing up my signal. Hopefully I can get it straightened out tonight.
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Is anyone else working on this?
To be honest, I'm waiting to see if you can get it working before I think about buying a 7500 and the adapter. ;)
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To be honest, I'm waiting to see if you can get it working before I think about buying a 7500 and the adapter. ;)
No problem, I'll get it working...
I know you meant 8500 and the adapter, right?
ATI HDTV Adapter FAQ (http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/faq.html)
Q2: What graphics cards does the HDTV Component Video Adapter support?
A2: ATI's HDTV Component Video Adapter supports RADEON
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I know you meant 8500 and the adapter, right?
Whoop. Indeed I did.
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Rough waters ahead...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252496 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252496)
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Doesn't look to promising.
Just throwing out an idea, don't even know if its possible....
The latest mame lets you create your own in-game bezels- Is it possible to create a bezel the size of the portion of your screen that is overscanned? So in reality, the bezel would be hidden by the overscan and you would'nt have any of your game cut off.
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What I am hearing from the AV guys is that a standard TV cannot support any resolution above 640x480. When it is displaying 800x600 with SVideo, the video card is really sending a modified signal to the TV. The signal probably has the resolution of 640x480, but it is displaying the full height and width of 800x600 pixels.
I think the problem is that the current Catalyst drivers do not support this same feature for the Component output. I'm also wondering if the resolution would really be an improvement over S-Video. I know 640x480 Component looks better than 640x480 S-Video, so I would imagine the same would hold true for higher resolutions, if the drivers ever supported.
Oh, back to the original question. I think that the bezel feature probably involves a custom resolution or something that would push the signal over 640x480, which would not work.
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If i may ask a question of all you guys
how does the tv display the windows desktop with s video
is it clear or blurry or unreadable altogether
can someone post some pics of the desktop
screens
any help would be greatly appreciated
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As mentioned, http://www.avsforum.com/ (http://www.avsforum.com/) is a good place to do research on this topic.
Another site I didn't see mentioned in this thread was Rage3d.com (http://www.rage3d.com)
The have a good forum there. Even if you don't have an ati card, you can still learn lots of stuff there. I have an ATI AIW Radeon, but haven't hooked it up to my pc as of yet so the link above is all I can add.
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If i may ask a question of all you guys
how does the tv display the windows desktop with s video
is it clear or blurry or unreadable altogether
Windows desktop is blurry but readable in my opinion.
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thanks for the post answer
are any of you familiar with scan converters
they are supposed to clear up the pc screen when using a tv for a pc moniter...
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Has anyone been able to get this to work properly?
I plan on taking a look at it once i find a DVI component no one wants, or would sell to me :)
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newer cats have custom 'no overscan' resolutions.
like 640x432 i believe.
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newer cats have custom 'no overscan' resolutions.
like 640x432 i believe.
Have you tried this or is this word of mouth? Is this a recent release (I assume by "cats", you mean catalyst)?
When I was working on this before, there was supposed to be improved resolutions which helped reduce the overscan issue. Is that what you are talking about? Those didn't help me out, as they were designed to reduce the overscan on an HDTV, not a standard resolution TV. I didn't see anything on the ATI site, but I hope you're right.
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I'm trying to get the topic started again on this forum, maybe we can have an answer from someone who has played with the drievers
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2973877#post2973877
Feel free to join in the conversation, I'd love to have the component output and knock s-vid off its feet :P
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look for nintari's guide on avs. in the HT computer forum
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On nintari's guide website, doesn't have source for 480I.
His FAQ says he never tried :(
Thx for the help on that one though :)
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i was just referring to this :
"
ATI HDTV Adapter resolutions
Ok ATI was nice enough to include quite a few resolutions to use. You have your standard 480p, 720p and 1080i resolutions....but then you have some odd ball ones out there...? Ones you most likely thought were a mistake but really aren't. There are three of these..640x432, 864x648 and 1776x1000. These are resolutions provided by ATI as "Optimized resolutions". What that means is they have no over-scan to them.
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there's a 480i rez that came standard in my Powerstrip that, when activated, provides only about 1% overscan on my set..... I believe it says (arcade) in it's name in the custom rez list....
Post from the other forum, can someone try this out?
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That looks like it will work. VERY NICE. I can confirm that it is about 1% to 3% overscan. I'm sitting about 10 feet from my TV and have no problem reading everything on the screen. I played a Divx movie and it looks sharp. Sorry, I switched machines and don't have MAME running on this box
It's 3am here, so I don't think I'll get you any pictures of the screen tonight.
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I've stayed up this late, what's another 45 minutes. Here is picture from my digital camera:
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WOO HOO! WTG Wienerdog ;D
looks like 2% overscan and you are not missing anything major (start menu button blue part of the flag is the cut off) but on the right side og the screen everything looks good?
Are you able to shift the screen right at all?
After 6 months do you think you'll switch to omponent in your cab now, do you really see a big difference in color and crispness towards text.
What rez looks best in youur option?
So many questions so little time :P
I hope the person I won the adapter on ebay shipped it already, can't wait to try it out.
Get some mame pics up if you get the chance ;D
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looks like 2% overscan and you are not missing anything major (start menu button blue part of the flag is the cut off) but on the right side og the screen everything looks good?
Are you able to shift the screen right at all?
After 6 months do you think you'll switch to omponent in your cab now, do you really see a big difference in color and crispness towards text.
What rez looks best in youur option?
So many questions so little time :P
I hope the person I won the adapter on ebay shipped it already, can't wait to try it out.
Get some mame pics up if you get the chance ;D
The right side of the screen looks pretty good, there is probably a software way to shift the screen to the right. I know there is one, I'm just not positive it is available when you are running from component.
A little background for anyone joining us now, these ATI cards DETECT the component doggle when the computer is booting up. It then outputs the component signal. If you want to change back to a monitor, you need to reboot again without the doggle.
I'll try to get some comparison stuff up this weekend, but I'm not sure if I'll have time. I'll decide at that point if I'll use component. Judging by the quality of the video playback, I'll be using component.
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Awesome I look forward to the comparison!
Windows won't let you shift the component signal with ati drivers, but powerstrip might be able to overrule them. In the custom rez menu I saw arrows making it look like you can shift the image, but again on component signal i don't know
What sucks is the dongle reboot to change vid card source, I'll be using the pc for home theatre and will be changing the signal alwats bettween ( projector, mame, and xbox ps2 on cab)
Looking forward to it!
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Wow, this thead lives! ;) Thanks for the info and pics, WD!
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I got my adapter yesterday and just setup the component!
I cannot stress how INSANELY AWESOME this looks. Never would I have though it would be this good, its worth 200 US to me this adpater if Id have to buy it!
I have my desktop running in 640X432 16bit color .05% overscan! Tell mame to run games in that rez you see no difference since the rez compensates for overscan.
In powerstrip, custom timings you can shift the page left and right without changing the scan frequencies.
Impossible to take good pics, I get too many waves on the screen when taking a pic.
Anyone have suggestions on how to take good pics of tv image?
Anyhow, if I was all of you i would change whatever video card you have now get an 8500 plus adapter and NEVER look back. THIS IS AMAZING!!!!!
NEVER USING S-VIDEO EVER!!!
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This is an interesting thread. I have a JVC 27D201 set that not only remembers what input was used before the power down, but also automatically powers up after plugging back in AND has a set of component inputs. Maybe it's time to buy a plasma and build a cabinet around the JVC. Can't wait to hear some more impressions of this setup as well as more screenshots (hint hint!).
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FYI
Digital cam pics of this will not do justice. Can't get good ones.
You have to see it in person to really appriciate it!
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So color is more accurate now ?
R-G-B ???
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Color, sharpness, clarity everything you can think of has just improved a million times over.
It's quite remarkable!
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sorry for being late to the game I was thinking of doing this for an htpc. This is what's recommended by the HTPC people some time go I don't know if it's the case anymore.
It's a VGA to component adapter. There is also a component to RGB adapter so you can hook up normal home theater equipment to an RGB Monitor. I was thinking about doing this if I bought an RGB capable monitor to my cab.
http://www.smarthome.com/77706.HTML
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This is awesome. Hey SuckerFish can you tell me what hardware and software (video card, TV, any special software and settings, etc) your using. Thanks.
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ATI Radeon 8500 oem
ATI Radeon 8500 dvi component dongle
Latest Powerstrip ( on modified arcade settings to get no overscan)
JVC 27inch AV-27430
:)
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All you need is the HDTV Component Adapter and any ATI card that supports it. Most adapter and card questions can be answered on the ATI FAQ page:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html
Then you need the Powerstrip software (as SF said) and a TV that accepts Component inputs. We both happen to be using JVCs (they power on nicely).
There is also a way to hack a VGA cord and mess with some registry settings instead of buying the component adapter. All the component adapter does is it tells the video card (on boot up) to transmitts the component signals on a subset of the vga pins. It doesn't actually do any converting of the signal. Oh, it also gives you the component jacks...
edgarvil: That sounds like alot of work to get an RGB monitor into a cab...
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Hello all. Todd H referred me to this thread from another thread, http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=13526
I just wanted to let everyone know that I've had great success using PowerStrip to force my TV in to 540 progressive mode, and have since been able to run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480 with absolutely no overscan (in fact I had a lot of underscan at first, but I fixed it). Powerstrip also helped me enable 1772x1000 with no overscan and 1920x1080 with a little overscan in 1080i mode. The difference is astounding. If anyone is curious about how to do it, let me know, I'd be happy to explain.
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I have an HDTV, a Radeon 9600 Pro, and ATI's component adapter.
We are using standard definition TVs. The ATI component adapter was made to be used with an HDTV, so everything should have worked for you. That is a pretty nice setup.
If you are using a standard definition TV, THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE SETTING is listed as "Arcade" in the custom settings. If you can't find it, PM me.
Credit goes to SuckerFish for tracking down the arcade setting.
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Hmm this is totally confusing me. Oh well. I don't think I have the money to spend on a TV that has component inputs but from the pictures posted earlier. It makes so much difference. On top of that, I have no clue how to fix my over scan on both my Radeon 9700 and 9500 pro :( Now I still need to decide between a TV or a 21 inch monitor for $90. Hmmmmm Any suggestions? How cheap can you get a TV with compnent inputs for?
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I would like to know the final verdict on this too if anyone cares to share? It sounds like the overscan problem with NON HDTV's is such that using the ATI HDTV adapter isn't worth it?
I have a Toshiba 27" TV that has Component Inputs on it - it is not an HDTV.
I would be up for spending the $ on a new ATI Card + HDTV adapter if someone else is reporting success using a setup similar to mine (i.e. the JVC).
Anyone?
Thanks!!!
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I actually just stumbled across this which could accomplish the same thing the ATI+HDTV cable is doing.
http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=9A60
I may go this route if someone has any idea on the overscan problem looming. =)
[Edit]
Actually this wouldn't work because the video card needs to send the correct signal to the TV (sorry).
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Can't the overscan problems be resolved with Powerstrip?
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Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. if you have an HDTV, a Radeon, and an ATI Component adapter, you can use PowerStrip to eliminate any overscan. If you have all of that hardware, and you are not using PowerStrip, you are not getting the full benefit of the hardware. Without PowerStrip, you can run the desktop on 640x480 with slight overscan, or you can run it at 640x432 with no overscan. But with PowerStrip, you can run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480, and 1772x1000 with no overscan what so ever, and 1920x1080 with a little overscan. I'm using this setup and I will never go back to an S-Video connection. The difference is ridiculous. With S-Video, for example, the font on this message board is barely visible, with a lot of squinting and staring at certain words until you figure them out. With Component, the words are crystal clear. I can't even begin to describe what it does for MAME. There is just no comparison.
Now if you're not using an HDTV, I don't think ATI's adapter is of any use to you. I guess you could get Powerstrip to make it output 640x480 at 30Hz, but I'm not positive. From what I understand, and from everything I've read, the adapter is only for HDTV.
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OK,
Thanks for the clarification - I appreciate it!
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Is powerstip free? Where do you get it?
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Hello all. Todd H referred me to this thread from another thread, http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=13526
I just wanted to let everyone know that I've had great success using PowerStrip to force my TV in to 540 progressive mode, and have since been able to run 640x480, 720x480, 856x480 with absolutely no overscan (in fact I had a lot of underscan at first, but I fixed it). Powerstrip also helped me enable 1772x1000 with no overscan and 1920x1080 with a little overscan in 1080i mode. The difference is astounding. If anyone is curious about how to do it, let me know, I'd be happy to explain.
Procyon,
I am inded curious and would love for you to explain. I am outputting to a high definition widescreen. Not only to I get overscan, but I get a weird scrolling phenomenon. Like only a portion of the desktop is showing at any given time, but if I move my cursor to the edge of the screen it will scroll around. It's difficult to explain. It's kind of like when you use the zoom feature on your DVD player and can then move the zoomed window around the screen.
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Not a problem.
First of all, Powerstrip can be downloaded for free from http://www.entechtaiwan.com/ It can be registered for a price, but at this time, I am unaware of what benefits you gain from doing so. So far the unregistered version has done everything I have ever needed it to.
My experience with this program is limited to my setup, which is a Radeon 9600 Pro, the ATI Component adapter (DVI port), and my Panasonic CT-34WX50 HDTV. And I am not currently at that computer, so I couldn't even paste the settings I have if I wanted to. But what I found is this: you can go online and search for the particular timing paramters that pertain to your particular tv, but if you have the patience and the technical understand, I found it was best to ignore them and start from scratch on my own.
What happens is this. ATI cards are programmed to use the 480p mode by default for any XXX by 480 resolution. However, every HDTV that I have seen that is capable of 480p display, is capable of 1080i display as well. These are common HDTV broadcast signals, as well as the newer 720p format. Now, if your TV is capable of 1080i, your TV is also capable of 540p. You might not have heard or thought of 540p because nothing I know of uses this signal, but never the less, your TV can do it. Instead of displaying 1080 lines 30 times every second, (doing 540 in one 60th of a second, and the other 540 in the other 60th) it displays 540 lines 60 times every second. It's the same thing, it's just that nothing uses that format. (Vice versly, because your TV can do 480p, your TV can also do 960i, another unsed signal. And if you have a 720p capable HDTV, you have 1440i as well.)
Now I've rambled on a bit about that, and most of it is useless information to everyone except for HTPC users. Let's say you had a general run of the mill transcoder (therefore, not ATI's adapter). You could use this information to construct any resolution that would fit best in which ever given signal. For example, 640 x 480 in 540p. 800 x 600 in 720p. 1024 x 768 in 960i. 1280 x 960 in 1080i. And so forth.
However, if you are using an ATI adapter like I am, I regret to say that you are limited to exactly 5 desktop sizes that will not result in a virtual desktop. This is a very poor decision in my opinion, and while there may be some technical excuse for it, it is one that I hope ATI remedies soon.
Anyway, the point of all of this is that because of the inherent underscan and overscan in television sets, whatever your vertical resolution is set to, you need a mode that is greater than that resolution. 640 x 480 won't fit properly in 480p, but it does fit wonderfully in 540p. And Powerstrip is the program that lets you do that.
Powerstrip is a program that talks directly to your video hardware and tells it exactly how to send the signal that your computer generates to the monitor (or HDTV). This give you complete control over the refresh rate as well as a slew of other features of your video signal. One of those features is referred to in Powerstrip as the front and back porch. The front porch controls the number of scan lines to wait until drawing the desktop would be visible (i.e. not off the top of the screen). The back portch controls the number of scan lines to hold off from drawing the bottom of the desktop (i.e. defining the bottom of the visible screen). Properly setting the front and back porch will result in a perfectly fitted desktop on your TV screen.
Now, if only it were as simple as setting those numbers. Unfortunately it's a little more complicated than that, but not by much. Before you start Powerstrip, I would recommend you read any of the number of poor to well written tutorials on using Powerstip that can be found on the net. They do a much better job at explaining the necessary steps than I ever could. Notably, read:
http://www.ramelectronics.net/html/powerstrip.html
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/markrehjon/htpc_superguide.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=206854
The last link in particular will contain actualy values that you could theoretically use if your TV matched the exact specifications as the TV that that forum poster has. Chances are, that won't be the case and you will be left, as I was, on your own to figure out the right timing.
This requires a great deal of patience, and having a monitor attached to your video card at the same time is a HUGE plus. What you're going to do is start with a base resolution such as 640 x 480 @ 60Hz in 480p. Get it working on your monitor (should be easy) and get it working on your TV (should be a little tricky, but not too hard). Once you have your monitor and TV agreeing on the numbers and you see a good picture on your TV, you've gotten through step 1. It does not matter how crappy Powerstrip makes your monitor picture look (squashed, stretched, WAY off center) as long as it's legible. Now you need to start changing the numbers in Powerstrip, to switch the resolution to 540p. The links provided above give you a good baseline to start from. The vertical refresh rate should stay exactly the same, and you should note what it was in 480p mode so that you know if you deviate too far from it, you can set it back and fix it. Incorrect refresh rates will result in an unviewable picture with lots of scrolling, and if the refresh rates are way too off, you could potentially damage your TV. Hence all the "do this at your own risk" warnings in almost every guide you come across. Once you have a viewable picture for 640 x 480 @ 60Hz in 540p, you are well on your way to becoming a Powerstrip master, and you ready to try for some more "crazy" custom resolutions.
Note however, like I said earlier, that if you are using the ATI Component adapter, you are limited to exaclt 5 resolutions that will not result in a virtual desktop. They are 640x480, 720x480, 856x480, 1772x1000, and 1920x1080. You can use Powerstrip to get the first three resolutions in 540p with no overscan. The last two will run automatically in 1080i, but you can use Powerstrip to tweak them. It is possible with Powerstrip to have no overscan in 1772x1000, but it is physically impossible to prevent overscan in 1920x1080.
OK I better cut this here, I don't know if half of this information was really useful to you all, but I hope it cleared up a few questions. Please feel free to ask if you need me to clarify any points.
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First off Hi! This is my first post of many I am sure.
I'm in the early stages of planning my first mame cabinet and am debating everything (monitor/tv, modular cabinet/all in one) but that is half the fun... :)
I've been reading this thread and would like a bit of clarification - So it looks like reguardless if you are using the component adapter with a non-HDTV screen there is about 5% overscan? (?even when using the powerstrip program on arcade mode? - that is part of the confustion)
Has anyone tried to get into the service menu of their TV to try and correct this overscan in the TV itself? I've been a HT nut for some time now and every TV I've ever owned has had to be tweaked for overscan (and horrid geometry) with a dvd like Video Essentials. There has got to be a test signal generator of some sort you could use beyond just eyeballing it.
Just a thought (as I would really like it to work...).
-Zathras
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If you read some of the earlier posts in this thread you can use a NON HDTV (JVC or Toshiba w/ Component Inputs), the appropriate ATI Radeon Card, the ATI HDTV Adapter, and Powerstrip (using the "Arcade" setting) to run a very clean 640x480 picture with less than 0.5% overscan.
You can not run over 640x480 unless you have a true HDTV.
I'm not sure if it works yet - I've ordered both a Radeon 8500 and the HDTV adapter to hook up to my Toshiba 27A33. I'll post results when I get them, I know "Suckerfish" was very happy with his results.
IMO S-Video is adequate but if I can get near "computer monitor" clarity for another $100 on my cabinet - it's a $100 well spent. The small amount of fuzz I get with S-Video is just enough to bother me.
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Thanks that clears things up (I guess it was the 480P discussion that threw me since you have to have HD for 480P).
Component makes a big difference in color stability even in non-hd.
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I have a 27" panasonic.. and it has component inputs.
I looked into the manual and it says it supports 480i
signals.
I then looked arround and found this:
http://www.grandtec.com/xppro.htm
A pc to composite converter.
I wonder if anyone has tried this... or has any comments about this? I wonder if this would be a better route for me than buying an updated ATI card with the dongle thingy... as im not sure the dongle supports my tv anyway?
With many options on the device already... it might be be better as its deviod of driver problems? And no need for powerstrip...
(http://www.grandtec.com/images/ultimate%20xp%20pro.gif)
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I posted pictures earlier in this thread that show how clear the image is. I'm using a 27" JVC with component input. Here is the setting I was running in Powerstrip (it's a predefined setting).
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The settings on the rightside of the screen are setup for 1280 btw, I'll post mine later tonight :)
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These are my settings once im in the Custom Arcade settings. No overscan :)
Hope this helps out!
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Here
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Folks,
Of all the people who sucessfully got this working.. (the
component out of the ATI cards).
Do anyone of you use non ATI brand cards? Like the "Powered
by ATI" cards (sapphire, powercolor, etc)? They are a lot cheaper
then their ATI counterparts. Will the component out/adapter
work with these cards? I just picked up the toshiba 27" tv
everyone suggested to use (with the component in). I am now
looking to pick up the video card and the adapter.
Thanks,
Crayola
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I have an original 8500 All In Wonder. I'm probably looking to get a cheap card too, since I am running to a TV. and won't need the TV tuner. My advice is to build the cable as described on the AV forum. Is anyone selling those cables on ebay yet? It seems like something that should be avaiable by now, but I haven't looked.
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Ok I finally got the TV mounted last night and hooked it up via component and started playing around with powerstrip.
At 640x432 I get no overscan, but I'm having some problems getting all the emulators to cooperate with that resolution. When I try the arcade 640x480i mode I still have a good bit of overscan - is there some other adjustments I need to make or should I hit the service mode of the TV to get everything correct?
Thanks!
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For mame it is simple, Other emus you can edit the cfg files or ini to run your own custom resolutions.
I most on my xbox connected to the cab : nes snes genesis etc, Lets try to compile a list of emus at will work with that custom rez for component 640 X 432.
Btw what do you think of the picture quality?
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I'm impressed so far - Actually I need to try taking out the tinted glass to see it a little more clearly tonight.
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What TV are you using Zathras?
I'm still waiting on my adapter from ATI... <twiddles thumbs>
- eli
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It is a Toshiba 27A33 - It is about the smallest footprint 27" tv I've come across, the price was right (had some BB coupons) and it did component so it was pretty much a clear choice for me.
Specs are available here:
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=27a33 (http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/televisions/product.asp?model=27a33)
My ATI adapter took forever to come too - one would think for $15 shipping they would overnight the thing....
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Excellent Zathras.
I'm glad to hear that as the Toshiba seems much easier to get in my area than the JVC the others have used. You should mail Tenka your PowerStrip settings, as it sounds like he has had no luck getting his 27A33 working with this setup. (In fact you should post them, as I'll probably go with the Toshiba now and I'm sure others will want them as well.)
- eli
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Anyone know if the Radeon 9600SE will work with the component video adaptor?
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For those of you using the Dongle + Powerstrip on a non-HDTV, are you also manually setting MAME's resolution to 640x480 for every game too?
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Yes .. In my case I use 640X432 for mame and desktop.
I can do it in mame and it will automatically detect my desktop resolution and let me select the output for the games to run in the same resolution.
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Yes .. In my case I use 640X432 for mame and desktop.
I can do it in mame and it will automatically detect my desktop resolution and let me select the output for the games to run in the same resolution.
So your saying that you just have Powerstrip running at 640X432, but you don't specifically tell MAME to run at that resolution, correct? Thanks for the info, by the way. :)
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In Mame options I have to select 640 X432, Mame lists the option for me cause my desktop is running at that resolution. But I still have to select it, all My games run at that res and look great.
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Hi guys! It's nice to be here :)
I have been gaming on emus from my PC via the *Ultimate XP Pro by Grandtec USA* (http://www.grandtec.com/xppro.htm) for a few weeks now. This is basically a third party PC to TV transocder that accepts S-Video and Component video. Here's a *pic* (http://www.grandtec.com/images/ultimate%20xp%20pro.gif)
Now, with this new Ultimate XP Pro by Grandtec, I am happy with it except for one thing...
The fact that I am not getting a progressive scan image as a result of my TV not being HDTV compliant means that the picture running from my PC is blurry compared to my monitor and I have to turn the sharpness up to like 50 in order to get a decently sharp picture. In other words, 480i SUCKS for viewing PC content on a TV! This is not the case with my home console games. All my PS2 and xbox games are sharp enough even at a setting of 0! Not so with PC emu'ed games though.
But the question I have is...would the crappiness of nVidia's TVout display affect how it looks even from a third party VGA to PC transcoder?
I'm sure you'll agree that the picture quality from an emu running from an Xbox to a 5 year old NON-high definition Rear Projection Widescreen TV(which I currently have) via component out can't compare with an ATI card running to a High-Def DLP front projector via DVI output....right? I have the rear projection TV...and Im sure that has a lot to do with
it not being as insanely clear as a standard CRT TV...right?
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Thanks to you guys and this thread I think I will order a Radeon 8500 and adaptor to get the component connection on my analog t.v.
Question is which card does everyone suggest?
64mb or 128
LE?
I know it makes a difference in 3d pc games but what about MAME?
My other specs are:
1.2ghz Thunderbird
512 megs DDR ram
40gig WD hd
GF2 Pro Svideo
Yamaha Aureal Vortex Soundcard
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I forgot to mention that this guy http://tvmame32.mameworld.net/main.html swears by using a scan converter.
I found his site on a forum where they were talking about it, if I find it ill put the link here.
Anyway I would love a comparison, or word from someone who has tried both methods.
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i have a ati radeon 64meg LE..
Its working great , strong enought to play Killer Instinct 2 in UltraHLE emu.
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Wow, I'm pretty late into this one, but I'm building another cab and I just wanted to see what you guys think of my setup. I got a girl at work who's gonna sell me a 27 inch Panasonic that has S-video and component video and the option to turn itself back on when power is restored for $50. Seems like a good deal to me. Now I'm reading this thread and some folks seem to be raving about component input. I was wondering if this card:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051384251495&skuId=4099120&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01151 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051384251495&skuId=4099120&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01151)
would be any good for my little setup. What do you guys think? also do you know if that card would come with the dongle needed for component video?
Thanks
Allroy
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I have a 27" panasonic.. and it has component inputs.
I looked into the manual and it says it supports 480i
signals.
I then looked arround and found this:
http://www.grandtec.com/xppro.htm
A pc to composite converter.
I wonder if anyone has tried this... or has any comments about this? I wonder if this would be a better route for me than buying an updated ATI card with the dongle thingy... as im not sure the dongle supports my tv anyway?
With many options on the device already... it might be be better as its deviod of driver problems? And no need for powerstrip...
(http://www.grandtec.com/images/ultimate%20xp%20pro.gif)
Why has everybody ignored this? It seems too good to be true.
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I would love to see this compared to the ATI/Component adaptor solution.
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Some review I found on the net.
http://www.vjcentral.com/hardware/show/7559
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Excellent. Thanks!
Edit:
Okay, I just read it, and I'm glad you shared:
Occasionally I get "page tearing" (a horizontal line that creeps vertically up the screen) in the output signal, but I think that a common problem with scan converters in this price range.
Unacceptable for an arcade machine, in my opinion.
I bought my first Ultimate XP Pro about a year ago and had it break on me after 8 months of usage (the output signal went to black and white). I tend to treat my gear fairly rough, so I can't really hold that against it.
I wonder what he means by "treat my gear fairly rough". Oh, well. It doesn't matter. The first issue alone is enough to dissuade me.
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i doubt a dongle will go defective on you, just the video card..... and that can happen with a scan converter too.
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Hi all,
I've read this thread with great interest, but there is one inconsistency regarding the ATI component doggle which I'd like to ask about. I noticed at one point that SuckerFish listed his setup as:
ATI Radeon 8500 oem (later described as an 8500LE 64 meg)
ATI Radeon 8500 dvi component dongle
Latest Powerstrip ( on modified arcade settings to get no overscan)
JVC 27inch AV-27430
however, according to the ATI site, the DVI doggle will not work with the 8500LE cards...but the VGA-to-Component adapter will. Does anyone know if this was just a posting error? If SuckerFish is still checking the board...are you using the VGA adapter or the DVI adapter?
The results of using the component adapter were so strongly positive I definitely want to go this route. I'm going to troll ebay for an 8500LE card and a component adapter, but I want to make sure I've got my facts straight on which card/adapter I'd need before making any purchases.
Not to drag this message out any longer but....does anyone have any insights on whether there is any difference in output quality between the DVI and VGA component adapters? I ask because if there is, I may just go with a newer 9000 series card and the DVI doggle.
OK...that's it!
I appreciate any assistance and input.
Cheers.
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Here's the FAQ (http://mirror.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html) on the dongles. I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards. It's in there.
I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping. I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality. If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here. I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.
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Libref, post the email you sent me and my response.
I was just wondering for all the people that have emailed me, who has gone and done the component setup and are you as happy as I am with it?
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I fully plan on using this setup. The only thing that I can see anyone complaining about is no screen until the OS boots up, but I think that's a small price to pay for the results you'll end up with.
I'm taking one step at a time and when I get to that point I'll post up my results and comments. ^_^
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Hi all,
A bit long, but here is a similar message I sent to SuckerFish and his response.
Thank you for the info...it's been a great help!!
----
Libref:
I am interested in going the component route using a TV; I'm planning on purchasing a non HDTV...much like the JVC model 27inch AV-27430 you're using. I read your comments from last December in the 's-video vs component'
thread the on BYAOC site regarding the use of an ATI 8500 card and the DVI component doggle along with Powerstrip. It's sounds like this combination produced a great picture! However, in reading the whole thread I had a few questions regarding the specifics of the hardware used....I was hoping could you help clarify a few issues for me?
1) Are you using an 8500 All-In-Wonder (AIW) card or a standard 8500?
I ask because you indicate that you're using the an 8500 OEM card with the DVI component doggle, however, the ATI site states that the DVI adapter (purple) is not supported with standard 8500 cards. I've copied the ATI info below:
VGA to YPrPb Adapter (black) is for use with RADEON
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Here's the FAQ (http://mirror.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html) on the dongles. I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards. It's in there.
I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping. I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality. If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here. I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.
I found one on Pricewatch for $39 shipped.
Just do a search for Radeon 8500. (it is a 32MB version, don't know if that makes a difference. The discription on ATI's site says that the DVI to Componate adaptor works with 8500s)
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Here's the FAQ (http://mirror.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html) on the dongles. I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards. It's in there.
I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping. I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality. If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here. I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.
I found one on Pricewatch for $39 shipped.
Just do a search for Radeon 8500. (it is a 32MB version, don't know if that makes a difference. The discription on ATI's site says that the DVI to Componate adaptor works with 8500s)
Yeah, I found that one too. I'm trying to get one of the 128MB cards since they don't list anything below that on the ATI HDTV converter FAQ. Figured I should just shell out another $20 instead of buying a card I wouldn't otherwise use and another $40 after shipping for a dongle that won't work. :-\
Thanks for the heads up though.
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Has anyone tried any brands other than the JVC and Toshiba televisions? Do the Panasonic models work well, like the PAN CT27L8S?
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I did not bother to read the whole post so I don't know what you decided. However I want to point out that component and S-video are virtually the same. You would have to strain hard to see a difference. There is a world of difference between composite and S-video or better but that's pretty much where it ends. To compare s-video to rgb as a component surrogate is not fair as rgb has a much higher bandwidth than component and all the color signals are individually handled whereas in component you are mathematically combining red green and blue in two signals.
If you are planning to spend a lot of cash just to get component, think twice.
You can see for yourself. Watch a DVD using component and s-video back to back on the same tv and tell me if you see a significant difference.
My 2 cents.
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There is a world of difference between Component and S-Video. It may just be the quality of the TV you are using TheManuel, but on my Hitachi 46" HDTV and even on my 27" JVC the Component Cable blows the S-Video out of the water. If you take into consideration that S-Video cannot produce an HD picture, but Component is the required connection to produce an HD picture, you will already realize that the component connection is a much better connection choice if available.
1) Line details are much clearer.
2) Text on screen is much more legible
3) Special Effects look sharper and more crisp.
4) You can spot Blue Screen scenes much easier.
Head out to any home theater group and state that S-Video and Component are close in quality and you'll be flamed by 50 people.
The quality of connection is as such [Worst to Best]:
1) Coax
2) Composite {RCA Cables}
3) S-Video
4) Component
5) RGB
6) DVI
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The reason hdtv requires component over s-video is bandwith, plain and simple. However, the originator of the post will not be feeding an HDTV signal from MAME to his cabinet but a regular NTSC signal which is just a fraction of the bandwith required by HDTV.
Don't go by the home theater groups. They are really nice people and are always looking to help as you clearly are but they have a tendency to see things most people have to strain hard to discern.
I agree with your hierarchy of video transfer medium quality regardless of how different is each from the previous one but I would knock out DVI from that list as it is a digital format and the rest are analog (apples to screwdrivers).
Numbers and specs aside, the only true infallible way of making a decision is for the intended user to see comparisons back to back before buying and deciding if the difference he sees is worth the extra cost.
Hopefully I'm wrong and the money will be well spent.
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Now on that stand I agree with you The Manuel.
But if the person were to by an HDTV and want to connect the PC to it to get the mame experience.... then the DVI connection would be best.
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But if the person were to by an HDTV and want to connect the PC to it to get the mame experience.... then the DVI connection would be best.
No doubt. You want to keep that signal path digital all of the way if possible.
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Try it then write back :)
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I feel really dumb asking this but just for clarification (again).... To do this all you need is a TV with YPrPb input, ATI HDTV component adaptor, and supported ATI video card. Then to rid overscan you need Powerstrip right?? and this equals awesome results?
THANKS!
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Does the component video clarify the output to the point where it is as sharp as a PC monitor, reducing the quality of older graphics? Or does it merely make things such as small text more readable, creating a more arcade-realistic picture while not going overboard in the sharpness department?
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I would say more the second option
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Hello enthusiasts!
I've read this entire thread and gained a ton of information. To clear things up to me, and the many people reading this thread, please answer my question.. ;D
I have a 25" TV with component input(Red Green Blue) that is NOT HDTV. If i purchase the neccessary VGA Radeon Card and the VGA-Component ATi Adapter, will I achieve a better, cleaner, sharper image than by using S-Vid. If so, how should I have my windows resolution, powerstrip settings, and mame settings set? I am hoping someone has this same setup and can help me before I throw the money down getting a new card and adapter. If someone can honestly agree that with my setup I'll get a better picture with the adapter, I will buy in a heartbeat! I want my arcade cabinet to be as nice as i can get it within a price range! Thanks for the great thread. 8)
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Just ordered the ATI DVI-I to Component cable from Newegg (35 with Fedex shipping. Ordered on Sat. and arrived Thur. (Includes Memorial day on Monday) and it arrived yesterday (California to Florida). My impressions: Freaking awesome! I'm a huge component fan, but I'm still impressed by how much sharper and colorful everything is (Previously calibrated my JVC TV with a calibration DVD).
I've not installed Powerstrip because Catalyst 4.6 drivers are supposed to include increased support and these will be released any day now.
The downers: 480i (Without powerstrip and the current drivers ) is 720*480. No default settings to get it lower (Other than lowering the desktop resolution to 640*480 (I guess this is only a problem if you're using another monitor and want that higher). Overscan is slight, but I've remedied this by changing the default resolution in MAME from 640 * 480 to 640 * 432 and everything if framed PERFECTLY.
I've tried a couple other emulator (Including ZSNES) and they were perfectly framed playing full screen at 640 *480. So even with the issues with the drivers, emulators are working fine.
Can't give this product enough of a recommendation!
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Dang, that sucks. Newegg doesn't carry the VGA-HDTV dongle only the DVI. All well, back to $10 shipping. :'(
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Does the DOS bootup display at all with component input?
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nope it doesnt
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If anyone is looking for a 27" Component TV, I found this one http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2175197&cat=4560&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A121791%3A4560
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that tv might be a little too big ... 30wide. it would never fit in my machine
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I dont know b/c component increases the resolution of the TV and thats the effect PC monitors have, pixelizing the graphics
Are there side by side pictures of S-Video and Component in action?
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I don't know what s-videos max resolution is, but I know 640*480 is within its range. So if you're using an analog set and setting the resolution at 640*432, there's zero diffference in the bandwith between the 2.
As I've had a few days to play with my new set-up, I wish someone would post component (On a tv with its color calibrated) vs Arcade. I'm beginning to wonder if there's any real difference. This component dongle is beyond outstanding.
Couple things that have popped out at me: Pac-Man finially has that piercing blue that was burned into my memory. Bump and Jump, which had really disappointed me since playing in MAME (Never held up to my memories) is now beautiful (At least to me). It seems to be showing fine details that were either missing with s-video or just ruined by high-resolution monitors. Couple that with the fact the amazing colors of this game are now searing off the screen and the game is the beauty that I remember. I can go pretty much down the line, but I highly recommend this to anyone who has a television that can support it. I also highly recommend calibrating your color with this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630551982X/qid=1086695811/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-4379532-9411905?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846
Edit: And if you're cheap, just buy the DVD like I did, calibrate the set, write down the settings, and sell it on Ebay and get most of your money back.
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Does it get rid of the eye-damaging shimmer effect that composite is giving me?
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Hi All,
PaulG - could you post the system configuration you're using (ie. computer, video card, TV make and model).
I also picked-up a ATI 8500 + dongle and tried it on a new JVC 27" using MAME32 and found the results rather disappointing; a lot of shimmering, difficulties calibrating the screen size (using Powerstrip), etc. I'm almost on the verge of going with and arcade montor and ArcadeVGA. I'm going to try another system as I found the ATI card locked-up the computer I was testing it on...I beginning to think the ATI card might be damaged in some way.
However, I'll keep trying as the results people are having with this setup seem to be very good.
Also, PaulG - how did you get MAME set to a resolution of 640 X 432 with using Powerstrip? Is this a default resolution with the video card you're using?
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1.) I'm using MAME32 and just went to Options - Default Game Options - Advanced - Resolution Size - 640 *432. The MAME interface will still run at whatever the default desktop resolution is, but when a ROM is loaded, the resolution will change to whatever is selected in this option.
I built the computer myself, but the motherboard is an Abit NF7-S (Rev. 2) NForce 2. Video card is a Radeon 9800 (Non Pro. ATI brand. Bought at Circuit City for 199.99). TV is a JVC AV-27D303.
I'm just using the default 720*480i resolution. This mean I have to scroll the mouse to see the entire desktop, but once playing in MAME 640*432 fills the screen beautifully. As for the shimmering, I seem to get quite a bit if I'm browsing the web, but in an application like MAME I'm truly unable to see it. Because when there is a lot of text, it's crisp, solid, and extremely stable. It's probably not perfect like a computer monitor, but it's as good as I could hope for in an analog setting. I'm assuming that's what you guys are referring to when talking about shimmering, right?
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Weird. I've just downloaded the new Catalyst 4.6s. I have no idea how you get the new feature to work. I did have Rage3D installed and tried uninstalling that. After doing that (But it may have been there from 4.6) the little ATI tab in my toolbar now let's me choose 720*480, 704*480, 640*480, and 480*432. Reinstalled Rage3D and they're still there. So I'm thinking it's probably 4.6 that installed these resolutions into the toolbar. It never went below 800*600 previously. So either 4.6s add this or some bizarre combination of incompetence somehow installed them there. Either way, I'm happy about that.
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Hi PaulG,
Thanks for the details regarding your configuration.
I'm still wondering about the 640 X 432 resolution you were able to use in MAME32. When I check the same area for available resolution, the closest I have is 640 X 480. Actually, the only resolutions available are those supported by my video card...and 640 X 432 is not one of them.
I checked the ATI site and 640 X 432 is not an available resolution for the ATI 9800 card...is this perhaps an available default resolution in MAME32? If so, perhaps I need to re-install because I definitely don't have that resolution available to me (unless I define it with Powerstrip - but from your post I'm assuming that you're not using Powerstrip).
I should also note that I'm using MAME32 v.79
Thanks again!
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The only way I saw that resolution was after making it in powerstrip.
I don't know if you still need to do this with the newest drivers... my drivers date from xmas 2003.
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When I received the dongle last Thursday, I immediately fired it up and was able to play at 640*432. This was Catalyst 4.5 and MAME32v.070. I am, however, using Rage3D Tweak utility for overclocking. I see now that it has 640*432 as a defined standard resolution.
I installed Powerstrip for about 10 minutes last Friday and then deleted it. I don't think I'd had it previously installed before (But maybe I had it for 5 minutes and some registry tweaks were left installed.... but I doubt it).
I share this computer system with a nearby desk and use it for gaming. I've recently purchased Star Wars: KOTOR and upon getting to DATTOINE the game was literally unplayable. I googled and saw the game is severely crippled with 4.4, 4.5, 4.6 and DATTOINE in particular is unplayable (Literally jumping all over at about .25 FPS). So I downloaded the best driver 4.2 and that fixed that problem, but I could no longer get 480*432... Even after installing PowerStrip. Maybe it's possible, I just have not been able to figure it out.
Confused, I deleted the drivers, PowerStrip, and Rage3D and installed the 4.6s again. Unless there are after effects of PowerStrip being on my computer, you just need to then install Rage3D, insert the dongle, turn it on in the advanced settings, and not only does 640*432 reappear in Mame32, but it also appears in the ATI quick resolution switcher in the toolbar (Something that was absent in 4.5).
One more observation: While it's true I didn't do any tweaks in PowerStrip (which I installed after the KOTOR fiasco), 640*432 in MAME honestly seemed to have shimmering I didn't notice before. Since deleting and installing only 4.6 and Rage3D, I fired MAME back up and the shimmering wasn't there. Maybe it's just in my head, but for me this seems like the better combination. So no one flame me on that, but for some reason it just seems that way to my eyes.
Edit: I also have things like anti-shimmering(?) checked in the Rage3D settings. Didn't really think this was making any difference (It certainly doesn't do much for web browsing), but maybe this is what makes the difference in MAME. And just for the record, there wasn't a huge difference with PowerStrip, but for some reason my eyes do think it is a subtle difference.
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Hi PaulG,
I've just tried the same combination you suggested on a fresh 'test system' running XP, ATI 8500, 4.6s Catalyst and the Rage3D Tweak Utility from www.rage3d.com.
Once the installtion was complete, the lowest resolution I saw was able to get was 640 X 400 from the 'Default Resolutions' tab of the tweak tool. Is it possible to modify the default resolutions in Rage3D tool? Still wondering where the 640 X432 came from?
Any thoughts?
Cheers.
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Thanks to trying to diagnose your problem, I've actually solved the mystery of my ATI toolbar :)
Here's my deal: With 4.6 and Rage3D installed, 480*432 doesn't appear right away. Until I install the dongle and activate it in the ATI advanced settings tab, it doesn't appear. Once I activate it, however, it appears in the RAGE3D supported resolutions.
Just so I'm not missing any steps, here are the other things I've activated in the RAGE3D settings: DVD - Enable HDTV modes (I've checked it, though my tv isn't HDTV and probably doesn't do anything), and in Driver and Display - Shimmer Fix.
So once the dongle is installed and the 640*432 appears in the supported mode of RAGE3D, I right-click the desktop - Properties - Settings - Advanced - Displays. Here I have the computer monitor on the upper-left, the dongle thing on the upper-right. Inside of both of those boxes there's the "bulls-eye" button and the "2 monitor" button. The default on my setup is the Dongle box has the 2 monitor button as the default. If I hit the "bulls-eye" button in the dongle box, hit apply, enter the dongle settings button, enable custom settings, check custom 480i, apply, close, close, and restart. When I reboot again, 640*400, 640*432, 640*480, and 720*480, all now appear in the ATI Quick Resolution switch in the toolbar. (And I'd never been able to get anything lower than 800*600 to appear in that.)
I realize my button names aren't the proper names, but you should be able to see what I'm talking about. If this doesn't work, I guess it only applies to certain cards:( Let me know if you don't understand directions.
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Hey PaulG,
I finally did get around to trying your configuration..and you were right!
When I installed Catalyst 4.6 + Rage3D Tweak Utility no 640 X 432 but after installing the dongle...there it is..very cool!
Unfortunately, even with the new driver and tweak utility I was still experiencing major shimmer and had a heck of a time gettting any game to play in 640 X 432 mode. I'm beginning to think my ATI 8500 card is pooched!
It would be great if someone could post a few pics of their component output..
Thanks for all your help PaulG...I may trying borrowing a newer ATI card which uses the DVI dongle instead of the VGA version...anyone willing t lend theirs for testing purposes? :)
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Has anyone taken screen captures of component video in action, I cant get an idea of what its like
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One of these days I'm gonna borrow a digital camera to take pictures of my CP (which I think is somewhat unique. Excellent layout for a wide range of the unique old-school games. Though a little unorthodox for hard-core fighter fans.)
I'll take some pictures of MAME with the component. Now sure how it'll turn out. I'll also be unable to compare to s-video (with pictures). The reason I bought the component adaptor (Didn't see this thread until after purchasing) was when adding RAM to my computer, I didn't unplug my s-video cable (Which was snug and really thick and strong) and I ended up stapping off the inards of the s-video output on my video card when I flipped the case on its side (only the wires remained. The black mold was destroyed). So if anyone has suggestions on how to snap pictures for best results, or requests, I'll try and take some within the next week or two.
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Hi everyone. I just set up my 27" Panasonic TV with the ATI 8500 card, ATI component dongle and Powerstip. I set Powerstrip to the "Arcade" setting - 640x432 - and changed the resolution settings on my Mame games to the 640x432 resolutions as well.
The games look amazing and I agree it was all well worth it, but I am also getting major shimmer on Windows and on the mame front-end. I don't really care too too much since the games look so good, but I would be interested to hear if libref is able to clear this issue up. I will probably play around with powerstrip a little more.
Thanks again to everyone for posting and leading me to the component input solution!
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Hi! Hello everyone, I am new here.
I've read everything until page 3 1/2. I was reading this post and searching ebay, when I found this dude:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1)
Its $58,95. Probably less than what you are going to pay for the 8500 + dongle + shipping of each.
And it can archieve (at least the seller says so) 1024x768!!
Please, let me know if there is something wrong with it.
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Hi! Hello everyone, I am new here.
I've read everything until page 3 1/2. I was reading this post and searching ebay, when I found this dude:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3759&item=5104522456&rd=1)
Its $58,95. Probably less than what you are going to pay for the 8500 + dongle + shipping of each.
And it can archieve (at least the seller says so) 1024x768!!
Please, let me know if there is something wrong with it.
Nothing wrong with it. The problem is that it doesn't have component video output, which is what this thread is about. However, an interesting feature is that it provides RGB output, which theoretically would allow you to connect it to an arcade monitor.
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Well...
In my ignorance, I though RGB and COMPOSITE was the same deal.
I dont understand one thing. How can it archieve 1024x768@60Hz if we are talking about a TV? Isnt 60Hz too much for a television?
Me and my ignorance. But dont worry, I am working on it.
Regards,
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To add to your confusion, there's also component and S-Video, which are different than RGB, VGA and composite :)
Regarding 1024x768 on a tv. Well, that's the whole point of the device aptly called "scan converter". Basically it blends or averages 4 lines in the 1024x768 frame for each line in a 320x240 frame, which is what a TV understands (actually two interlaced 320x240 images are needed for each TV frame).
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Nice! Great newbie-proof explanation.
I will add this dude to my project then. I want to be able to get 1024/768, so I can play some PC games with hr on the TV as well.
I was going to choose RGB monitor over TV, due to the price, but looks like TV will be the way to go.
Ty folks.
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Okay, so I'm looking to build my own cabinet and have been following this thread. I'm going to use a TV for the display. Seems like Component is the way to go, but I'm looking for a "simple" solution to give good results. Seems like there is a lot of work and tweaks to get Componet working with video cards (overscanning issues, etc.)
I happened across this 'scan converter' product and am looking for feedback to see if it's a viable solution
http://www.smarthome.com/7743C.html (http://www.smarthome.com/7743C.html)
It seems like it would allow me to use an existing video card I have (rather than buying a TV-out card), and since I have to buy a TV anyway, I would just buy one that has Component in and use the Component out of the converter.
Thoughts or suggestions? Would it be as simple as hooking my video card to this, and this to my TV using Component? Do you think the display would be superior to S-Video from a video card to the TV? What about resolution and refresh rates? See any issues there? Overscanning?
I'm very new to this and, as stated before, am looking for the best but easiest solution.
Thanks.
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After looking over this thread again, it is my understanding that you can't run any modes above 640x480 with the component dongle setup. If this were to be true, what would happen if my cab ran a game like Golden Tee Golf PC, in which the resolution starts at 800x600 regardless if you changed it in a previous instance of the game? Would the system go to a black screen, or would it simulate 800x600 via interlacing or some other technique that I don't understand? Or would something else happen?
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Thoughts or suggestions? Would it be as simple as hooking my video card to this, and this to my TV using Component?
It should be that simple. These devices, whether they are for component or s-video tv's are usually plug and play, with no software config on the PC side.
Do you think the display would be superior to S-Video from a video card to the TV?
Component output is designed to be superior to S-Video as this is how High Definition tv's are connected to HD-compliant devices.
What about resolution and refresh rates? See any issues there? Overscanning?
Although I'm no expert, all component-compliant devices are standardized in regards to resolution/refresh. The scan converter should be able to take care of all the conversion details.
-- Android
NOTE: Just completed reading the entire thread and looks like somebody else has reviewed this scan converter. Read the review and the follow up comments before you buy.
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Okay,
This is probably too much, but I need to request:
- Can someone using component PLEASE take a decent picture of the TV displaying a PC game running in a big resolution (800 x 600, 1024x768)?
I dont know anyone who has such connection. My box wont be only mame, I also want to run PC games on it. And I dont want to use a 200 bucks video card in a tv if the tv is going to became the "bottleneck".
If I can not make a TV perform it nicely, I am rather going to a old 20" svga monitor.
Thank you again,
Manny.
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I have a question:
How does the DVI to component dongle compare to the VGA to component dongle? I ask this because I see alot of talk in this thread about the DVI, but very little about the VGA. Are they effectively the same?
Thanks!
Coop
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Okay,
This is probably too much, but I need to request:
- Can someone using component PLEASE take a decent picture of the TV displaying a PC game running in a big resolution (800 x 600, 1024x768)?
I dont know anyone who has such connection. My box wont be only mame, I also want to run PC games on it. And I dont want to use a 200 bucks video card in a tv if the tv is going to became the "bottleneck".
If I can not make a TV perform it nicely, I am rather going to a old 20" svga monitor.
Thank you again,
Manny.
Right now I'm really hooked on Star Wars: KOTOR and it's a bit of a pain to switch from driver 4.2 (Which KOTOR is best at, and which the dongle isn't outputting anything at.) That said, to my memory it's not actually like s-video (Which you can output at 800*600 or 1024 *768... albiet with dropped pixels which degrade the picture.) You can set the desktop to 800 or 1024, and it will output the picture to the component, but if you're only displaying this on an analog 480i television, you'll have to cursor scroll the screen to get to the undisplayed portions. Obviously this is unacceptable for gaming. Now if you had an HDTV and had a television with a high-resolution, this isn't a problem, but for analog (unless I'm missing something), you really can't play anything over 640*480 desktop resolution.
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Hi,
Has anyone tried or considered trying AdvanceMAME to get the 640x432 resolution without using Powerstrip or the 3drage utility? There is some mention of custom resolutions on the website, but it is sort of unclear:
http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/readme.html
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Is the display with the dongle at 640x480 as unplayable as everyone is making it out to be, as far as overscan goes? I have a number of non-MAME PC games that I plan to use in my cab that can't be forced into a 640x432 resolution, so I might just stick with composite or s-video.
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This Radeon 8500 + dongle combo can output to a TV, through this component connection and PowerStrip, very low non-interlaced resolutions like 320x240 or 256x240 ? For the sake of a accuracy emulation.
Anyone could, PLEASE PLEASE, try this ?
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Freakin' ATI. The new 4.7 drivers finially seem to fix KOTOR (Loaded an old Dattoine file that was previously unplayable on 4.5 and 4.6). But now the 640*432 option disappears with Rage3D. UUGGHH! At least it's something though. 640*400 (slight letterbox) is still better than not being able to output anything (which is what the previous 4.2 yielded).
Edit: To the poster directly above: Only using Rage3D, I set a game in MAME to 320*240 (Hardware stretch enabled) and the output was a small box (320*240) in the center of the screen. Maybe powerstrip is different though.
The reason I'm not a fan of powerstrip is when I install that, I have to uninstall Rage3D or Powerstrip doesn't boot on start-up. And if I don't have Rage3D installed, my monitor calibration (done with monitor software independently) doesn't install (Very odd). And considering my Samsung monitor has lousy default calibration, I've just found life easier by sticking with what works.
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What about Advance Mame, never tried ? It's the best program to handle the video card to output low-resolutions.
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Read the review of this new S3 video card which has decent performance and built in NATIVE component connections!!!
http://techreport.com/etc/2004q3/deltachrome-s4pro/index.x?pg=1
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Read the review of this new S3 video card which has decent performance and built in NATIVE component connections!!!
http://techreport.com/etc/2004q3/deltachrome-s4pro/index.x?pg=1
That is looking awesome! Thanks for posting it. I'm going to see if I can locate one of these, although they might not be out yet.
It sounds like this might be perfect for MAME use.
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More information on the S4
http://www.s3graphics.com/feature_def.html
Blast. Doesn't look like its out yet....
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The concern I would have about that card is the component support. ATI is throwing more resources at this segment and still has some issues. And if you look at those specs in one of the links: It lists component as starting at 480P as the lowest supported spec. It mentions 480i as supported via s-video or composite. I'd be gunshy until certain what exactly is supported at what resolutions.
P.S. I'm not posting any photos. I recently borrowed a decent Canon digital camera, but I really suck at photo taking. It served my purposes well (And I took a couple photos of my CP), but between getting reflections off the television, not really understanding all the options on the camera, and the fact my hands aren't all that steady and even my best snaps could use a tripod, and it's pointless. They'd show nothing other than I suck as a photographer:( If anyone was hoping, sorry:(
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I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34. Then I realized my graphics card is an ATI 9200se! :(
ATI's website lists the supported cards as the 8500, 9500, 9600, 9700 & 9800. What about my 9200?
Does anyone know if one of ATI's 2 component dongles will work with the 9200se? ???
If not, what about one of the following items?
http://shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?dept_id=20
Thanks!
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1) I read this entire thread, and it has some great information but seems to have died off lately? Is there a differrent location where the component battle is being waged?
2) Has anyone looked at the Daewoo 27" DTQ27U4SC Flat Tube TV that Best Buy has on sale this week for $229? It has component inputs, and the flat tube should make monitor bezels much easier to make and fit....
3) Any more word of reasonably priced video cards that put out component video natively?
Nick
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So you guys are really pushing this component thing, huh? Seems to me that there's a TON of issues trying to get it to work right- or have you figured it out enough that the rest of us can jump on the wagon too? ;) Im about to buy a new tv, but need to know how this is all working for you guys. Still all for it? How is the setup? Got it all figured out, or, still trying to resolve issues? Which tv's do you reccommend?
Thanks soo much for all your posts!
D
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oops- sorry about that- I hit reply only after reading page 2 on this thread! Its 5am, maybe I should get some sleep... lol. I'll go read and post more if I have questions later.
Sorry...
D
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ok- so read the complete thread. Everyone who switched to component is THRILLED with it. But- looking at the comparison pics on page 1- honestly, I don't see much difference between Component and S-Video. I know that in person you'll probably notice a huge difference. But- on those pics, I just see the coloring a little bit off. Not sure if it's worth the extra $200+ for a new card, dongle, cables, etc, compared to sticking with S-Video. Any comments on that?
Thanks!
D
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ok- here's what I have found (man that search button is handy, isn't it?). If you go with Component, you CANNOT USE the Act-Labs light guns! They are only available in S-Video and Composite, NOT COMPONENT. So- I'll sacrifice a little better color quality to play my gun games...
D
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Sorry but what is component ??? im really sorry im sure its a stupid question im using a 28" philips tv and want to know the best way to get the best picture
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Sorry but what is component ??? im really sorry im sure its a stupid question im using a 28" philips tv and want to know the best way to get the best picture
In order of quality:
Composite Video
An analog video signal in which the luma and chroma components are combined (by frequency multiplexing), along with sync and burst. Also called CVBS. Most televisions and VCRs have composite video connectors, which are usually colored yellow.
S-Video
A video format offering a higher quality signal than composite video, but a lower quality than component video. This mid-level format divides the signal into two channels - luminance and chrominance.
Component Video
A video system containing three separate color component signals, either red/green/blue (RGB) or chroma/color difference (YCbCr, YPbPr, YUV), in analog or digital form.
There is also VGA and DVI but most tellys don't have those plugs.
HEY! I posted in the monster topic. Yey! :D :D :D :D
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Just so ya know... Ive spent some time taking pics of svideo tv and others. I had noticed that my pics never seemed to look as good as the tv's picture.
I then realized why...
ATI has settings for adjustments of clarity. You can take the jitter away - but you willl get a less sharp picture. Or make it sharp - and you see a bit of jittering... Why? Because ati uses an Interlacing technique for higher detail capability! : )
Interlacing is where 2 pictures are shown alternating swiftly - to make it appear as if they were one shot. Using half of the details in one pic, and half the details in the other frame... its able to make incredibly clear images. Almost as clear as a pc monitor. Its able to display a simulated 1024*768! The more frames used for details- the more the pic will appear to shimmer or jitter a bit.
So - if you try to take a picture of it - your only snapping 1/2 of the details. If you really wanted to see the full details... youd need to somehow set up a perfect slow delay on the camera so that it captured both frames perfectly. I do not think its possible to capture the two at once without some freaky hardware and or software intervention.
So - in responce to the componet -vs- svideo... the pics seen are probably much better than you could imagine.
I can tell you this.... some cheaper tv's svideo and or component arnt as good as others. Ive seen other comparison pics of svid vs component and it was night/day. One thing you get with svideo is a oversaturated red which is hard to swallow. Component dosnt have this problem. Colors are much more true. Also, Details are much clearer - and do not get fuzzed out.
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Although s-video is pretty good 2 noticeable problems are flicker (is'nt this the same as dot crawl) and a little bit of warping that is especially noticeable near the outer borders. How does composite fare with these 2 problems.
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I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34. Then I realized my graphics card is an ATI 9200se! :(
ATI's website lists the supported cards as the 8500, 9500, 9600, 9700 & 9800. What about my 9200?
Does anyone know if one of ATI's 2 component dongles will work with the 9200se? ???
If not, what about one of the following items?
http://shop.ati.com/searchresults.asp?dept_id=20
Thanks!
I would like to know this as well! Could someone PLEASE post an answer to this if they know it?
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So what is the latest and greatest set up for using a 27" TV with Component & S-Video and a computer to run MAME?
Thanks!
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I have been reading this thread and want to get the ATI HDTV dongle to run component in for my Toshiba 27A34.
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I've read this whole thread and i'm confused. It doesn't seem like anyone answered some of the other simple questions, so i figured i'd ask again:
I've got a 27" Magnavok non-HDTV. I need to buy a video card for the free computer that i just picked up (PIII with Windows 98 is all i know).
If i buy the ATI 8500 and the adapter, then i just run component cables to the back of the TV (that does have component in)? I gather i have to get Powerstrip and click the "Arcade betting" but am wondering if i'd be lost with getting the thing to work properly.
FWIW, my TV has a S-video in also and i'm almost confused enough to take that "safe" route, but i want to get the component up and running if that's the best.
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
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I'd like to look at something before commenting
What model number is your TV?
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It's this one. Thanks alot man.
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Magnavox-27-TV-27MS3404-/sem/rpsm/oid/86035/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
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I'm also having trouble finding the 8500 at retailers, so i'd probably have to go with a different ATI card.
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I don't see the 9200 on the list of compatible cards for the component adapters:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html#1
That's not saying it won't work.
Keep in mind that ATI makes different adapters for different cards so you should buy accordingly
Why not try the component route and I'm sure everyone here will be glad to help
and if it just doesn't work out for whatever reason you can always use the svideo connection and sell or trade your adapter.
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Does that Magnavox model turn back on once power is restored, as well as go back to the last used input?
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I don't see the 9200 on the list of compatible cards for the component adapters:
http://www.ati.com/products/hdtvadapter/faq.html#1
That's not saying it won't work.
Keep in mind that ATI makes different adapters for different cards so you should buy accordingly
Why not try the component route and I'm sure everyone here will be glad to help
and if it just doesn't work out for whatever reason you can always use the svideo connection and sell or trade your adapter.
i noticed that after i posted it. That card was about the only reasonable priced ATI that i saw on my quick search. I'll keep looking (and go the ebay route this time). There's a "Microcenter" by my house that i want to check out also.
So there are a bunch of different component adapters? Once i get the card, i might need more help with getting the right adapter.
FWIW, that's why i bought that TV, if i'm too dumb to get component to work, S-Video is another option.
Does that Magnavox model turn back on once power is restored, as well as go back to the last used input?
The Salesman told me that it did, but i don't have much faith in salesmen. I've had it sitting in the original box in my living room for a few weeks while i finish the cab and figure out the control panel, but i'll fire it up and check for you.
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Here's my story:
I just finished my cab. I bought the 27" Toshiba 27A34(I believe-$214). It has both S-Video and Component. It is very difficult to find a inexpensive tv 25"-27" with component. I bought an ATI 9600(Sapphire brand) for $80 and the component adapter for $29.
I really wanted a true arcade monitor, but those things aren't cheap--I sort of started this project without asking the wife, so I'm trying to limit how much I spend. I started with the s-video connection while waiting for my ATI adapter to come in. The picture was very good--a little color bleed but not bad.
Once my ATI adapter came in I changed to component. OMG! What a difference! No color bleed. The picture is very sharp compared to s-video. The colors are are outstanding. In fact, the picture was so good, I had to run and tell my wife, but she could've cared less. I am definately happy with this combination. Be aware that using the component adapter introduces some overscan(about 5 percent). From what I've read, it varies depending on the TV and/or Output(480i,480p,720p,1080i). Obviously my TV can only do 480i.
If I had to choose this combo or a real arcade monitor, I would choose the tv combination. I just need to do a little tweaking to see if I can minimize the overscan. Overall, I am VERY pleased. ;D
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Omar,
Please share the steps you take getting the overscan down.
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Just curious, where did you get the Sapphire card from?
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I will definately post my results with the overscan issue.
I live in San Diego and I get the free computer mag called computorEdge. I got the card here locally from a place called MyPCParts in Clairemont Mesa. Actually I only paid $70 for the card. They have the ATI9600 128MB now for $66.95.
Looking through the magazine, I see they have a website: www.mypcparts.com
I haven't viewed their site, but the prices might match their weekly ad. Oh, if you don't have the ATI component adapter, get it from s-video.com. The shipping on ATIs website is just too expensive.
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Here's two that i found at CompUSA (as i'm checking locally first in case i have to take it back)
Which would you guys prefer? I believe that they are both on ATI's list for the component adapter:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=50357982&pfp=BROWSE
http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?product_code=311024&pfp=BROWSE
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Unless you need all of the features of the AIW I would just get the 9600SE(The exact same on I have, except it's not 'made' by ATI). My .02 cents
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For some reason, the 9600SE doesn't mention the component adapter like the All in Wonder 9600 does:
Drive an HDTV-ready Television using the optional VGA->YPrPb adapter available from ati.com
I also just noticed that the specs for the 9600 don't mention Windows 98. The only other version that i own is XP and that might be too much for the machine. Thoughts?
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OVERSCAN ISSUE FIXED!!! ;D
Be aware that using the component adapter introduces some overscan(about 5 percent). From what I've read, it varies depending on the TV and/or Output(480i,480p,720p,1080i). Obviously my TV can only do 480i.
Okay, here's what I did to fix it--YMMV. I went into the service menu of my tv(Toshiba 27a34). Decreased the Height (by 3) and Width (by1 ).
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HOW did you do that????
I have a Toshiba 27A34, and I can't figure out how to change the H size or V size. Nor can I figure out how to mess with corner geometry (pincushion) or any of the other advanced settings.
I've read the entire manual for the TV, and I've looked through all of the menues on the TV, but to no avail.
What steps did you take exactly to modify these settings?
Thanks!
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I couldn't find that Toshiba model anywhere i looked. Now i'm starting to get jealous :-\
i hope the Magnavox works out too...
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BTW, I found the TOshiba at Frys Electronics. Best Buy had it too. They told me that model is discontinued, the next model has speakers on the side (which is bad for me because my internal cab dimensions is 26"). So I was forced to buy it.
To get to the service menu (Toshiba 27a34):
1. On the TV, set the volume to zero.
2. On the TV hold the volume down and press '9' on the remote.
3. You should now see 'OSD' on the screen and vertical dashes on the left and right.
Use Channel Up/Channel Down to cycle through the different settings.
Use Left/Right(I'm doing this from memory. I don't have a remote at the moment--I forgot what left/right is) to change the value. Press 'enter' on the remote to save settings.
Disclaimer:
Make sure to write down your settings before you change anything (I didn't, but it's common practice)
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Discontinued? I had better get mine while I can. I was hoping to wait a bit. :(
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I was hoping to wait a bit too, but I didn't want to take any chances;this tv is perfect for this type of project. At least having the TV staring at me everyday forced me to work a little faster to get my cab built. Unfortunately I'm always on the lookout for another one in case I want to build another cab. :)
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BTW, I found the TOshiba at Frys Electronics. Best Buy had it too. They told me that model is discontinued, the next model has speakers on the side (which is bad for me because my internal cab dimensions is 26"). So I was forced to buy it.
To get to the service menu (Toshiba 27a34):
1. On the TV, set the volume to zero.
2. On the TV hold the volume down and press '9' on the remote.
3. You should now see 'OSD' on the screen and vertical dashes on the left and right.
Use Channel Up/Channel Down to cycle through the different settings.
Use Left/Right(I'm doing this from memory. I don't have a remote at the moment--I forgot what left/right is) to change the value. Press 'enter' on the remote to save settings.
Disclaimer:
Make sure to write down your settings before you change anything (I didn't, but it's common practice)
Okay, that worked. But it took me a minute to figure out that I had to hold the 9 button for a few seconds.
Thanks for the help! How did you find out how to do that?
The only issues that I'm seeing with my TV are:
1) When it's in Windows 2000 with a blue background, there are a couple of spots to the right where it looks dark or burnt. But under MAME I don't notice it. Is that some kind of burn in or something?
2) Screen looks to be tilted/slanted to the right, just slightly. For example, when I'm in Windows, if I look at the toolbar at the bottom, I can see more blackspace under the left side than the right. So, it's off by a few millimeters. Not THAT noticeable, but if you know it's there it's a little annoying. I've tried fooling with trapezoid, etc, but to no avail.
Any thoughts on those 2 things?
BTW, I'm using the XP Pro adapter plugged into my cheap VGA card.
Thanks for the help/advice.
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For those with this Toshiba TV, omar is the man! With these setting tweaks on the set, there is no need to mess with Tweak UI, Powerstrip, etc.
I too have slightly more black on the left bottom of my screen, but then I also had it after tweaking the thing with my ATI dongle and software...so I'm used to it. The trapazoid and other settings don't seem to change this on my set either.
Thanks again for the tip!!
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Thanks for the help! How did you find out how to do that?
I Just googled: Toshiba 27a service menu
The only issues that I'm seeing with my TV are:
1) When it's in Windows 2000 with a blue background, there are a couple of spots to the right where it looks dark or burnt. But under MAME I don't notice it. Is that some kind of burn in or something?
2) Screen looks to be tilted/slanted to the right, just slightly. For example, when I'm in Windows, if I look at the toolbar at the bottom, I can see more blackspace under the left side than the right. So, it's off by a few millimeters. Not THAT noticeable, but if you know it's there it's a little annoying. I've tried fooling with trapezoid, etc, but to no avail.
Any thoughts on those 2 things?
My windows desktop doesn't look perfect either. Since I don't use the windows desktop for anything(I use the mamewah frontend), I didn't care. I'd rather have my games looking the way they should instead of windows.
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Cool,
Thanks again for the info, Omar.
And Scoobie, it's nice to know that it's not just my TV. It's so slight though, that it's not really a big deal. Maybe they all do that a little bit. BTW, I was reading that maybe some of that tilt is caused by interference? To the right of my TV, I have: my XP Pro adapter, a 17" FP monitor, a cable modem, and a computer. So, with those 4 things, there's gotta be some interference, I would think.
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I checked with Best Buy tonight. They aren't selling the Toshiba 27A34 anymore. Ordering one online from them is not an option for me since they wanted $55 for shipping.
It's almost impossible to find a 27" tv with component video that also has the speakers on the bottom. Then add the requirements of coming on after power restore, and returning to the last input, and the choices are even slimmer. I now don't know what model to get.
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Exactly. As soon as I heard the were being discountinued, I ran out and bought one ASAP. They'e becomming very hard to find(not online). I would check Sears if you're still looking. I didn't see one in their online store, but they had it in their physical storefront.
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I'm having a hell of a time finding locally a video card that i can use to try the component hookup. The best that i could find was the AIW 9600 card for $130.
I don't really need all the AIW functions at all, but that's the cheapest card that i can find around.
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Have you thought about the XP Pro external adapter? It converts VGA to Component. So it should work with any VGA card (in case you already have a card in your machine...even a cheapo card).
I got mine for ~$90 at Radio Shack. But you can probably get them cheaper online.
Not sure if the ATI card (with dongle) looks any better than using a cheapo card with the XP Pro. But if you're just running MAME games, then I don't think the video card really matters.
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Are you talking about the external scan converters that people talked about earlier in the thread and didn't like?
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Are you talking about the external scan converters that people talked about earlier in the thread and didn't like?
It has been a few weeks since I've read this entire thread. However,....
I'm pretty sure that you're correct in that they've been mentioned in this thread.
But I don't recall reading much (if anything) negative about them. What were the negatives?
I happen to own one, and I don't really have any complaints, so far. Pricewise, it's about the same as (or less than....in some cases) the ATI/dongle solution. As far as image quality, I don't have the ATI/dongle, so I couldn't say. I haven't seen any comparisons. As for setup, it doesn't get any easier than what I have...just hook up all of the cables...and overscan can be fixed with the XP Pro. Whereas, with the ATI/dongle, I believe you need to install that Powerstrip (?) software. However, if you have a TV that lets you adjust HSCAN and VSCAN (like the Toshiba 27A34, for example), you may not need the Powerstrip software.
BTW, I'm NOT saying that one's better than the other. I'm just throwing out another option for you, since an affordable ATI card seems hard to find.
Again, I didn't think that the feedback was negative. All I remember was someone pointing out the XP Pro, and getting ignored...then finally someone saying that it was too pricey or something. But that's all from memory. I'm too lazy to go back and read the whole thread again.
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I purchased the Sapphire ATI 9600 Atlantis card and the DVI adaptor. Overall I was not very impressed. The flicker is pretty bad and the floating dots are large and very distracting in component. I then tried the S-Video output on the card, the flicker was lower, but the dots were as bad.
I then went out and bought an ATI 9550 since I can't find a made by ATI 9600. I hooked this up to my Toshiba 27A34 with component and the flicker is still pretty bad even in the games. There is less flicker in the games but it is annoying. The dots are not present with the ATI 9550.
I then hooked up the 9550 with S-Video. The flicker is almost a non-issue and there are no large floating dots on the screen. Overall this seems to be the best setup as far as middle ground and is for the most part, acceptable for all games.
If anyone could come up with a list of their setup with both the ATI component and the Toshiba 27A34 that they are happy with, that would be outstanding.
This lis should consist of:
1. Mame settings via the INI file.
2. The ATI Windows XP desktop settings with res. and such.
3. The adjustments and what number level they are at now on the Toshiba 27A34. This would include the contrast, brightness, ect.
4. The Toshiba 27A34 service menu number settings for each item adjusted. I have played around with the corner sizing, V-Size, H-Size, V-Shift, & H-Phase to center the image on the monitor for full screen. Any other settings would be great.
From just playing around I can't see how component output could be acceptable with all the flicker. For example - Asteroids, when the asteroids are foating, parts of the astroid go blank. Puckman- the whole maze flickers pretty bad. I must be missing something. I now have $260 wrapped up in just video cards and the adaptor, about 1/2 way to the cost of an actual arcade monitor.
Please lets try and help everyone out with examples of how you have your configuration setup.
Thanks to everyone on this.
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I finally hooked up my ATI9600XT via monster S-video cable to the Magnavox TV that i bought and got it to a point where i was really impressed and surprised at how good it looked. I could read small type in the Windows environment and everything.
The TV itself had settings for horizontal and vertical adjustment, aspect ratios and such. I set them up, then played with the settings on the ATI card. I don't recall where, but there was a way to adjust the flicker.
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Now that I have had a chance to really play games with my ATI9550 and the Toshiba 27A34 with S-Video I have noticed one thing that bugs me. The screen has too large of gaps between pixels. The lines that the dots produces can be hard on the eyes after a few minutes. The colors can seem a little soft or fuzzy at most times. I have tried to fix the saturation, contrast, and sharpness but it doesn't seem to help.
Does the arcade monitor have the same issues? I realize the larger the screen the larger the distance between the pixels but I was hoping it wouldn't be an issue, but it is.
Why does this have to be so hard? I just want it to look great, but there is something I am missing.
Any help would be great.
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OK I had enough with the TV and trying to get it to look good. I finally broke down and just purchased a Betson 27" Arcade monitor and ArcadeVGA card from Ultrimarc. This better rock!!!!
I figured what is the point of putting together a whole cab if the display sucks. Isn't this the point in putting together a cab in the first place?
Now I just have to wait a few weeks for delivery. sigh!!
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Does anyone know of a step by step tutorial on getting the ATi component video adapter to work well connected to a tv? My video card is a Radeon 9800 Pro.
Every time I try it, windows trys to enter a mode that the tv can't handle, and I can't see anything of course to undo it.
I started out with only the 480i dip switch enabled, but it didn't really seem to matter much.
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Figured I would dredge up this monster thread because I've had recent success with it which I've documented in the following post.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43408.0 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=43408.0)
I've also included the coveted s-video to component comparison screenshots! :D