The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls
Main => Driving & Racing Cabinets => Topic started by: Felsir on February 24, 2014, 05:38:48 am
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A quick post to gauge if there is any interest. I'm coding my own race game- fake 3D, sprite based 80s style.
Is there any interest for a homebrew game like this? If there is interest I'll make it driving cab friendly (support for driving controls and such).
What are "must have" features in your opinion for a racegame in this style?
Ofcourse some videos to show what I have so far:
Racer, Dutch level (Work In Progress) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cGcNEnrzN0#ws)
and
Racer, snow level (work in progress) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6mdhZdH5Mo#ws)
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I like it, especially the Dutch level with too many confusing max. speed signs...just like in real life.
Must haves:
- A red car!
- Maybe cop cars, that chase you?
- Options to tune your car (from better tires/engine to more usefull things like leds underneath the car and 6000 watt audio system)
- Night time
But what about QixPanic?
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That's pretty awesome man.
So are you coding that from scratch or using a pre-existing engine or what?
As to your question:
Lambo's and/or Ferraris... find me a 80's racer that doesn't have them and I'll find you an 80's racer that isn't very fun.
Pretty girls. It's not a deal breaker but they seem to be included in all the greats, so maybe there is something to it?
Music selection. Since this is a modern title using a mp3 playlist would probably be the easiest.
Traffic obviously. I figure you know that one though. ;)
Some kind of gimmick would probably be a good idea as well... turbo boost, drifting mechanics, anything to set it apart. Again all the greats seemed to have had some sort of gimmick.
I'll second the night level suggestion. For some reason a nighttime level always seems special on these racers. Ditto for sunrise and sunset.
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How about a button to change the view? I always liked to change the view to inside the car.
More road hazards. I saw the cows, but they didn't cross. You could add chickens, rabbits and turtles to make it interesting.
How about a level where you race parallel to a train while avoiding road hazards and other cars? If you are too slow, the train crosses the road ahead of you and your time runs out.
I have a view other ideas about racing away from a tsunami while driving on a bridge towards the mainland. The other is while racing away through the country side from a tornado.
Sjaak's and Howard's ideas were all sound.
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A multiplayer, choose your own adventure driving game based on cannonball run "race across the country" type movies. At each checkpoint give an option to select from 2 or 3 paths. In game money for better time than your opponent, and then in game head start for the next path.
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several grammar edits
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I like it, especially the Dutch level with too many confusing max. speed signs...just like in real life.
;D
But what about QixPanic?
Still working on it, don't worry!
That's pretty awesome man.
So are you coding that from scratch or using a pre-existing engine or what?
Thanks! It's coded from scratch (C# with XNA). I found this (http://www.extentofthejam.com/pseudo/) page and challenged myself to implement this. Turned out to be a fun thing to work on.
Must haves:
- A red car!
- Maybe cop cars, that chase you?
- Options to tune your car (from better tires/engine to more usefull things like leds underneath the car and 6000 watt audio system)
- Night time
Lambo's and/or Ferraris... find me a 80's racer that doesn't have them and I'll find you an 80's racer that isn't very fun.
Pretty girls. It's not a deal breaker but they seem to be included in all the greats, so maybe there is something to it?
Music selection. Since this is a modern title using a mp3 playlist would probably be the easiest.
Traffic obviously. I figure you know that one though. ;)
Some kind of gimmick would probably be a good idea as well... turbo boost, drifting mechanics, anything to set it apart. Again all the greats seemed to have had some sort of gimmick.
I'll second the night level suggestion. For some reason a nighttime level always seems special on these racers. Ditto for sunrise and sunset.
The current car is modelled after the Lamborghini Countach; and I would like to do more and have the player select the car of their choice (same with music- it's indeed MP3s and is fairly easy to do. I have a friend working on tunes). A lot of graphics have to be made, I want the car to flip over like in Outrun when it hits roadside objects above certain speeds.
A night level is very possible; the current engine supports dynamic palette switching with a fade-timer (the sky goes darker when it starts to rain- in it is possible to start one section in daylight and fade to night during a course. I have also "fog" implemented so nighttime could have reduced visibility. Oh and the traffic automatically switches on their tail lights when it rains or the "fog" is over a threshold (a bit hard to see, but check the red car at about 24 seconds in the Dutch level).
Traffic is in the works. A policecar chasing you is a great idea!
Pretty girls- added to the list!
The Gimmick- that's what I'm looking for. A turbo (worked well in the Burnout series) seems nice. Also upgrades might be a good idea. The car is now pushed out of corners based on the speed of the car and the level of the curve, better tires could reduce that force as well.
How about a level where you race parallel to a train while avoiding road hazards and other cars? If you are to slow, the train crosses the road ahead of you and your time runs out.
I like that idea! Don't know yet how to implement it properly, but a speeding train sounds like an exiting competition.
A multiplayer, choose your own adventure driving game based on cannonball run "race across the country" type movies. At each checkpoint give an option to select from 2 or 3 paths. In game money for better time than your opponent, and then in game head start for the next path.
I have been toying with the idea like The Great American Cross-Country Road Race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_American_Cross-Country_Road_Race). Added it back to my idea's list :-)
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At some point, we should pass a Clint Eastwood lookalike driving with an orangutan. That could be an idea itself. With enough plays, you could inject random cars with shout outs from various movies. Drive often enough and you'll pass the Mystery Machine. Trigger the Mystery Machine often enough, and you'll see it driven by the different cast members.
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How about a level where you race parallel to a train while avoiding road hazards and other cars? If you are too slow, the train crosses the road ahead of you and your time runs out.
Death Valley in Cruisn USA did this, and its pretty great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5JvwoGqUQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=89 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ds5JvwoGqUQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=89)
(about 1:29 in)
To pile on suggestions:
Multiple Cars to pick from
Multiple Car colors to pick from
Love the outrun road splits, why not make it better Left, Right, AND straight
Lane swaps ie in the USA levels you drive on the right, in Great Britain on the left
Multiple Cameras, I know already mentioned but Im not a fan of inside the car, but I know some people like the ass end of the car against the screen, some people like the camera where you have it now.
My buddy Kazuya (Davide Pasca) made a game called Final Freeway (and Final Freeway 2) for iOS and Droid, check them out if you want a little inspiration.
Car cameos would be pretty awesome, and there are tons to use (in addition to the ones mentioned: The General Lee, KITT spring to mind)
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Drove the kids to school on roads with ice ruts and had an idea. Challenge Level! You are driving a fire truck hauling water with an open top down a road with a bunch of pot holes. Loose too much water and the fire burns out of control.
Challenge level: Avoid cars while maintaining the balance of an egg on the rear spoiler! Watch out for those banked turns and roads.
Also, have you ever driven behind a chicken truck? Feathers everywhere. Could be a distraction like the snow level.
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If it's 80's, it needs a hi/lo shifter. Hot air balloons or a blimp in the sky.
+1 on the gimmick. Outrun had the "choose your path" gameplay. I keep thinking of 90's games like Cruisin' and California Speed when I think of other gimmicks. I'll browse through the other 80's games and get back to you. It will be something cool to think about while stuck at work.
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I like the movement of the camera when you wreck on WEC Lemans
(trying to hit the checkpoints before running out of time in that game is maddening)
WEC LE Mans 24 (ARCADE) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Vmxi_wMCU#)
Overall, probably newer looking than what you're going for, but check out the horizons on Super Monaco GP.
The ocean or a lake in the distance is pretty cool, but remember to make more downhill than uphill if heading toward it. ;)
The buildings on a mountainside are also a nice touch.
[ARCADE] Super Monaco GP 1989 SEGA (Gameplay) FullHD 1080p (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8RUMeHp3Q#ws)
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I think the game looks fantastic so far but it's actually a lot more impressive in motion than the still images lead on... it seems rather plain just from the screenshots but maybe that will change once you've got traffic and other things.
One thing that makes it look really weird to me is your placement of the car. I would recommend placing the car lower on the screen and make it a little larger (essentially changing the camera view to closer to the car).
If you look at most racing games of this type the car is either at the very bottom of the screen or close to it... you have your car near the center.
I think the placement of the road and skyline is perfect... the car just needs to be lower.
For example...
Rad Racer: car is at the bottom
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3e/NES_Rad_Racer.png)
Outrun: car is at the bottom
(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/outrun/outrun-6.png)
Even more modern games like Cruis'n USA: car is near the bottom regardless of camera.
(http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/4/a/d/gfs_41937_2_6.jpg)
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Other suggestions:
-Force Feedback... I mean who doesn't like force feedback
-Multiplayer (LAN) support... AFAIK there aren't many of these games that offer multiplayer that could be part of your gimmic
-Mountains to help break up the skyline... Maybe it's just because I live in a region with a lot of mountains but it seems weird to have it go straight from ground to sky without anything breaking up the two.
-Tunnels? having tunneled sections might add some variety to the tracks.
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Randomly posting things as they come to me.....
Although a lot of work, more sprites for different angles of the car would go a long way in making it look polished.
Here's an idea for a gimmick - Allow the car to jump a little when going over a hill at high speed. Controls don't work until it lands. Sparks fly when it lands and bottoms out. There could be a hill with a turn after it so you have to slow down to avoid jumping it or else crash. Games usually had a landmark to let you know that it was coming up...once you knew it was there. Although the landmark would be memorable, so you'd know the second time through, it was not a warning sign or anything like that. Kinda like in Daytona where when you see the Sonic wall, you know that turn can't be taken full speed.
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Tab to configure:
Real hardware setup options for cab builders. For example, make hi/lo, 4 gear, 6 gear options, but only in setup, not during game play. As such, no option for auto/manual during gameplay.
Single pedal (release to slow down)
Gas & Brake
Three Pedal support, If you could add clutch, that would be cool.
I'll echo the FFB
Output to external screen:
How about a small rearview mirror that always displayed the rear view instead of just a pop up? Or the cab builder could use a rear view mirror that pointed at a second monitor behind the driver?
External Dash elements:
In game elements outputted to external elements:
USB speedometers
LED Array for Speed as in Crusi'n USA
LED indicator for transmission position
Pseudo GPS NAV Screen.
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Single pedal (release to slow down)
Gas & Brake
I'll echo the FFB
Output to external screen:
How about a small rearview mirror that always displayed the rear view instead of just a pop up? Or the cab builder could use a rear view mirror that pointed at a second monitor behind the driver?
Pseudo GPS NAV Screen.
Single pedal sucks, gas and brake would be the way to go (let off the gas to slow a little, use the brakes to slow a lot)
FFB would be neat but thats drifting away (PUN!) from an 80's racer.
rearview, not very 80's racer-ish I mean maybe a little on screen one at the top, but most of these games were spent weaving through traffic not seeing whats behind you.
I think a Hi Low shifter would be most 80s racer arcade accurate
GPS Nav on an 80's racer?
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GPS Nav on an 80's racer?
I *might* have got carried away when mentioning the ideas for external outputs.
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Man that was a interesting article. If I knew that was out there I would have already started on a racer myself. ;)
I can't disagree with any of the suggestions. Especially moving the car down a little. I knew something looked off in the demo but I couldn't figure out what.
How about an in-car view? It worked well for rad-mobile.
I think instead of just having cameos of famous cars you should just have famous cars as selectable characters. That might be a lot of work to do on your own, but if you make it skinnable and give us simple access to some variables like speed and handling, we could probably help out with that.
How about some sweet jumps? I'm not talking about puny little gaps in the road... I mean full on Dukes of Hazzard jumps. I've never seen that pulled off properly in a scrolling racer.
Btw I figured that was a Lambo in the demo, I guess I should have specified... RED sports cars. All other colors are invalid. ;) That's why nobody picked the stupid white car in Rad Racer.
If you want to do the blinky lights and such we can do that through mamehooker. You can of course use the official mame-style windows messages, but that takes a lot of calls to setup. The next version has DDE support and if you wanted to go that route, a single api definition combined with a single line of code will send an output to mamehooker. That's how I implemented it on TS2 to keep the processing loop lighter.
In terms of force feedback.... I mean you could add it, but a really good rumble would probably be just as good. It worked for outrun and the sega racers.
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How about some sweet jumps? I'm not talking about puny little gaps in the road... I mean full on Dukes of Hazzard jumps. I've never seen that pulled off properly in a scrolling racer.
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The closest thing I can think of are the original Mario Kart and F-Zero both had sweet jump mechanics but it's kind of a gray area as to whether they'd be considered a true scrolling type racer.
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As for FFB I would see it simply as getting heavier the harder you turn (like a scaled centering spring effect) and then a rumble effect when you crash... If you wanted to get crazy maybe some push-back when you rub up against another vehicle
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Man that was a interesting article. If I knew that was out there I would have already started on a racer myself. ;)
There is room on the road for more than one racer!
If you want to do the blinky lights and such we can do that through mamehooker. You can of course use the official mame-style windows messages, but that takes a lot of calls to setup. The next version has DDE support and if you wanted to go that route, a single api definition combined with a single line of code will send an output to mamehooker. That's how I implemented it on TS2 to keep the processing loop lighter.
I am going to check mamehooker out! Thanks.
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Awesome stuff! I think force feedback would be cool, hi/lo shifter and multiplayer LAN. Perhaps police chases?
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Awesome ideas! Keep em coming :-) keep in mind that I'm doing this in my spare time (about 4-6 hours a week) so it will take some time between updates.
The shifter is on my list, it will also make the sound better (now it is a linear sound from zero to max, and the gear shifts will also improve that).
I'll look into FFB and Mamehooker later, I don't have the hardware so I will need volunteers at that stage...
Jumps sound like a good idea, they will have to be meaningful (the jumps in Turbo Outrun are more an annoyance than a feature IMHO).
Howard_Casto I'll get to that configurable car stats later, that's a great idea to get variety in the game.
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I agree on jumps being meaningful... I think it would be great if the jumps were semi-hidden and allowed you access to short-cuts (I'd recommend playing San Fran Rush or looking at the original Mario Kart and F-Zero for some awesome examples of what I'm talking about).
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I had an idea for a gimmick... it might be cool if there was some time-travel aspect to the game. I was thinking maybe go back in time or forward in time to change the track design or avoid "permanent" obstacles.
Maybe another option would be to simply reverse time and get a certain number of "do-overs" similar to how you can rewind Forza but more implemented as a gamplay mechanic like the way it works in Braid (if you've ever played that game).
I'm not sure how that would work with timed based races or multi-player though.... maybe even have a DeLorean as an optional car choice.
Also here's some awesome 80s inspiration:
KUNG FURY Official Trailer [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72RqpItxd8M#ws)
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During lunchbreak I had a little time to tinker with my code. Not enough time to do major features, but I did some restructuring and made some settings configurable. Also I added Sjaak's Fix-it Felix post-processing code for added retro look (optional ofcourse).
Will probably have more time this evening to do some real coding...
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KUNG FURY Official Trailer [HD] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72RqpItxd8M#ws)
Bahah.. I got nothing..
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During lunchbreak I had a little time to tinker with my code. Not enough time to do major features, but I did some restructuring and made some settings configurable. Also I added Sjaak's Fix-it Felix post-processing code for added retro look (optional ofcourse).
Will probably have more time this evening to do some real coding...
Awesome work! Its already looking very nice. I would like to see 2p/3p/4p split screen :) Oh and for 2p split screen a choice for vertical or horizontal split would be much appreciated.
Thanks for the link regarding the technology, really informative :applaud:
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Just watched the videos WITH sound...I really like the music. Will it be in the game or is it just a placeholder???
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This is neat. Watching with interest.
debircsbuS.
AJ
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Just watched the videos WITH sound...I really like the music. Will it be in the game or is it just a placeholder???
It's in the game. One of my friends has a home studio and composed a couple of tracks for the game.
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Question about the hi-low shifter. I don't have a driving cabinet; so if you have an actual shifter on your cab, how does the game know the initial position of the physical shifter when the game starts?
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Since no one else is likely up I'll try to answer.
First off understand that the way mame does it does NOT work for a real hi/low shifter. Cab owners have been fighting the mame devs over this issue for years.
A traditional shifter only has one switch in it. While the switch is pressed, the shifter position is high, while it's released, the position is low. It's the mechanics of the shifter itself that holds the switch either open or closed. Also keep in mind that some hi/low shifters worked the opposite way, with the switch being in the low position.
So to please everyone (god help you) you'll need the following options:
Hold for high=button (One switch shifter, with Hi being on)
Hold for low=button (Ditto, but low is on)
Toggle Shifter =button (toggle between high and low... like mame works)
(These two are dedicated buttons... pressing them or holding them shifts to that gear)
Hi Gear=button
Low Gear=button
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So to please everyone (god help you)
Heh, heh, I know what you mean. I'll try to get close if it is fairly easy to implement.
So a config like this would satisfy most of the people:
ShiftMode = Automatic | Manual | PlayerSelect
ShifterType = Toggle | HoldHi | HoldLow | HiLowButtons
ToggleButton = key | none
HiButton = key | none
LowButton = key | none
HoldHi mode is the "while switch is pressed position is Hi and when released it is Low" and checks the HiButton setting. The HoldLow mode is the inverse and checks the LowButton setting.
HiLowButtons shifts the gear into the HiButton/LowButton position while pressed (if the button is released it remains in that position).
Toggle mode switches between gears if the ToggleButton is pressed.
Shiftmode configures the game to either give the player the option for manual/automatic or preselect the shifter mode.
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And that's just the shifter...don't forget about joysticks, gamepads, steering wheels, pedals, keyboard control..... ;D
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eh, steering wheels and pedals are just reconfigured dinput gamepads until you get into directional force feedback.
The newer Logitech wheels will even shake the wheel back and forth when you send the command for rumble.
I know nothing of C++ vs XNA, but are you aware of Cannonball?
https://github.com/djyt/cannonball/wiki (https://github.com/djyt/cannonball/wiki)
It's a complete rewrite of Outrun in C++ and uses the sprites from MAME roms.
It's open source if you want to browse to see how things were done.
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Yes, I'm aware of the Cannonball project (I run that version on my cabinet). His blog entries are very interesting, I'll most likely use Outrun mechanics for subjects such as the scoring mechanism (http://reassembler.blogspot.nl/2012/04/traffic-code-ported.html (http://reassembler.blogspot.nl/2012/04/traffic-code-ported.html)).
The c++ code is a nice reference, but I cannot use any of the code (it's nice clean code though!). But articles as I just linked provide great insight in the mechanics.
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The c++ code is a nice reference, but I cannot use any of the code (it's nice clean code though!). But articles as I just linked provide great insight in the mechanics.
Why not? don't you know there is this abomination called C++/CLI aka managed C++ ;D
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eh, steering wheels and pedals are just reconfigured dinput gamepads until you get into directional force feedback.
And man now that I'm finally about to get the new version of mamehooker out the door, I'm learning what a pain in the butt directional FF is. You can certainly build the effects internally, but if you are doing anything complex it's far easier to use the long depreciated ffedit supplied by Microsoft (you'll see ffe files on even the most recent racer). The problem is ffedit has all kinds of error suppression that'll make you think an effect file is properly structured, you'll load it up and it actually isn't.
It isn't terribly hard to figure out once you get the hang of it, but imagine making an effect, trying it out on your program and getting an oddball error, spending the better part of an hour trying to track it down, only to figure out that ffedit by default binds the secondary motor to an axis even if a secondary motor doesn't exist.
Xinput shouldn't be terribly hard though. One api call with left and right motor strength and that's it. Run off the road and use the small motor, hit something and use the large motor. Even though it's feature slim, it is a lot simpler to deal with.
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Okay, I have the lowgear/higear mechanics working. It took a while to get it "right". The automatic transmission shifts a bit earlier than the optimum, so with manual transmission you could get a slight advantage as bonus. Also manual transmission grants a bit more top speed.
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Okay, I have the lowgear/higear mechanics working. It took a while to get it "right". The automatic transmission shifts a bit earlier than the optimum, so with manual transmission you could get a slight advantage as bonus. Also manual transmission grants a bit more top speed.
sounds just about right. Most games grand a top speed bonus to manual gearboxes.
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I think Playability is most important.. however, if you are playing something that really is visually unpleasent... it can effect the experience to the point of not wanting to play. Same goes for poor sound quality and or poor musical score.
One thing I really like, is the speed. Thats a key factor in making a very intense experience... and its most always often lacking in a lot of the new 3d based games. Arcade style driving does not, nor should not be 100% realistic. Its should be fun. And games like Sega Turbo, or Spy Hunter... has acceleration & speed levels that no cars can achieve.
The thing I do not like the most... is the effects... such as the tire smoke and rain splash. Its wretched ugly... and looks nothing like the real deal. Totally ruins the whole thing for me.
Also, the graphics are so flat. There is no realistic shading going on. A game like Outrun, trumps pretty much all other racers of the time.. and even after it... because the art was shaded very well. Its adds impact, depth, and a level of realism.
The other problem.. is that Retro Arcade games were shown on Arcade Monitors. While the scanline effect does help a little... its still too flat looking, due to there being too little variances. There are these huge blocks of solid colors.. and nothing is filling them. With a real low-res arcade CRT.. the shadowmask creates a texture effect... which helps break up those solid block areas. It makes it appear more shaded and artistic. Lines are not as rigid.. and in games like this.. where objects are scaled.. it actually creates a bit of a true shading effect... because the smaller objects will be more effected by the shadowmask lines. Thus, they will be less focused in detail.. as well as their colors will be more blended and slightly different.
Color mixing, via light bleeding over the shadowmask's.. creates an automatic shading effect. Its also often how they simulated transparency effects... using small dot patterns of black. In emulators on an lcd.. you can easily make out these patterns.. and it looks horrible.. and nothing like how its supposed to look. They also used it to make more colors and shading effects, by placing certain colors next to each other.. which would bleed together to form another color.. which was especially great, because certain hardware didnt have a lot of colors.. and or they didnt have a lot of memory to store better shaded graphics.
Ive included a few quick mockups to make some points about lighting, texture, and other stuff...
- The first pic.. shows how by adding a noise or texture style filter from photoshop.. can create a much more visually pleasing effect.
It helps make those large solid color areas much more interesting. Almost like a simulation of gravel, grass..etc. Where as before, it looks like everything is a flat piece of glass-smooth plastic. As such, when you look at a game like Outrun, the shadowmask actually makes the art look like an oil painting. A very unique expression... rather than a mere photograph.
Also, because of this screen texture effect.. it helps hide resolution issues. Such as scaling, harsh edges on sprites, jagged lines, and more.
- The next pic shows a more realistically shaded car in a dark night snowstorm. Visibility is lowered. Objects far away.. are blurred. The car color is turned down to match that dark environment. Lighting from the cars limited headlamps.. stays in a small area.. while further out.. things get darker and darker... and more and more blurry. Very fine translucent areas of snow gusts cause headlamp reflections, reducing visibility even more... (the light reflecting off the snow causes a level of brightness that makes it hard to see deeper past it.. in the dark)
In the last Pic.. I created a more visible night version, on a more clear and moonlit night. This one is to point out a great feature in Outrun.. which is the "Over-Scale" effect. When an object, such as a tree passes your car.. it gets blown up to huge proportions, and really adds a depth effect that other racers lack. Sort of like the side scrolling games, which put some large fast moving parallax scrolling layers in front of your character.
In this case.. rather than merely scale them up... by adding a slight blur to them, it simulates a real movie camera experience. Where the greatest focused area is near the car... the distant horizon is slightly blurred.. and so is anything past the car area.
Again.. this creates greater depth and a greater feeling of speed and motion.
Some other things to note...
- Objects that are very far away will be less saturated in color. (Most especially in the day) This is an environmental effect of visibility, moisture, and blur.. as well as the way light bouncing off these objects travel. As you get closer.. you see more detail.. and the colors get more Pop to them.
- In a painting.. its often that the artists paints the edges a slightly darker shade.. to pull your attention towards the center of the painting. It also creates a greater impact and depth effect. This can be done artificially, to give that same artistic effect. Even if thats not quite realistic to real life. Its just very visually pleasing... and thats the point.
- If the sun is very bright.. colors will be very intense and saturated, but also, there will be very dark and well defined shadows. If its more overcast.. colors are less bright and less saturated.. and the shading and shadows on objects is less dark. (more color shown, rather than pure black levels)
Most artists use this effect to great advantage. They make, often exaggerated, high contrast effects... on purpose. That gives the stuff more shading, more shadow.. and it will look more 3d, as well as is more pleasing to the eye. If you look at Marble Madness... thats a great example of high contrast work. Where as Marble Madness II... is not high contrast. It looks much flatter and boring. Possibly because it wasnt ever finished.. but maybe there are other reasons. Either way.. its garbage compared to the original. I feel the same way about the original Outrun look.. when compared to the more flat cartoon look of Turbo Outrun.
FYI - I believe Marble madness was pre-rendered in 3d, and then raytraced. Once the renders were finished.. they broke the captures into tile sets. Im also pretty sure Outruns sprites were captured using digitized photos. But then tweaked to the lower resolution, and hand edited to make sure it looked correct.
Yrs later, in a game like outrunners... the sprites look too much like photographs in some areas.. and then very cartoony in others. This ruins the whole graphical look. Its like wearing lime green sweatpants and a business shirt & tie. They just dont go well together visually.
More later...
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Xiaou2, you've made some excellent points. I've already added a noise filter to the HLSL shader code for the pac man game and it helps create the CRT look.
I like the second picture you posted with more realistic light, but personally I think if you add those lighting effects, the whole thing goes more to a race simulator with 3d graphics than a sprite based arcade game. The lighting has to be baked into the sprites and that will limit the range of light effects because of sprite limitations.
But this is just my opinion and maybe others think that sprite lighting should be more realistic...I know that this guy does: http://snakehillgames.com/spritelamp/ (http://snakehillgames.com/spritelamp/)
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The thing I do not like the most... is the effects... such as the tire smoke and rain splash. Its wretched ugly... and looks nothing like the real deal. Totally ruins the whole thing for me.
So you want the 80's driving game, which is currently based on arcade games like Outrun....... to be a sim?
Secondly, I'll bet you that you are wrong on how outruns sprites were made (and probably how marble madness was made as well) . You don't give artists nearly enough credit, not everything is tracing a picture or a render.
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More later...
:cry:
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Guys the problem is that you engaged him. [ edited by moderator - Please no name calling - http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html (http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html) ]
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Xiaou2, you've made some excellent points. I've already added a noise filter to the HLSL shader code for the pac man game and it helps create the CRT look.
I like the second picture you posted with more realistic light, but personally I think if you add those lighting effects, the whole thing goes more to a race simulator with 3d graphics than a sprite based arcade game. The lighting has to be baked into the sprites and that will limit the range of light effects because of sprite limitations.
But this is just my opinion and maybe others think that sprite lighting should be more realistic...I know that this guy does: http://snakehillgames.com/spritelamp/ (http://snakehillgames.com/spritelamp/)
Hi Sjakk,
Thanks.
As I was saying, if you look at Outruns sprites, you can see that there is a definite light source. The main car, is very realistically shaded, with the same light direction in most cases. (except where they used mirroring, to save on memory)
The only reason Outrun didnt do things like change the Car darker in a dark scene.. was that they simply didnt have the memory to do such things. All you have to do it either alter (cycle) the color palette.. and or make another set of sprites in that darker tone for that level. It doesnt actually have to go full on 3d with 100% dynamic 3d lighting. With todays PC / Filter technology, you can actually do much of it using simple semi-translucent mask images, put in place. In Discs of Tron artwork in mame.. they used this to make the Artwork file look lit more like the arcade machine.. rather than just a uniform value.
Though... I will say that link is Really cool. The dynamics of lighting, with the pixel art look. Still, I often prefer hand shaded pixel art to bly generic 3d and vector stuff.
Im glad to hear there is a noise filter. But I do hope you get someone with good shading ability to fix the sprites... and or if you are capable.. use a more diagonal based lighting angle for the shading. Those trees are quite bad too (the non snow trees. Looks like globs of bushes formed into trees). heh
So you want the 80's driving game, which is currently based on arcade games like Outrun....... to be a sim?
No. And as Ive said.. Outrun DOES have realistic lighting shading. AND, if you read what I wrote.. it clearly states, that I prefer the Outrun arcade style control and feel. Sim games are too slow feeling.. and Im not big on their physics model. The only way I may change my mind on that.. is if someone make a version of Race Drivin.. and with all the same sit-down controllers. Unlike most FFB controls.. Race Drivin took it to a whole other level... and so you could actually feel the road properly. Even then.. I still like the Outrun style of racing, where you dont have to worry about a huge pile of physics slowing your gaming actions down.
Anyway, in this case, it seems you were referring to my quote about smoke. Which is funny, because his implemtation of smoke, is more like a 3d sim.. with its translucency. Quite honestly, Outruns non translucent smoke effect looks a lot better. So does outruns paper-like smoke trails (used several non translucent sprites in a trail... but alters the colors on each one.. and or cycles an animation. Take a look at arcade footage)
Translucent effects can be done well.. but there are some principles that need to be followed for them to look realistic. Most people.. possibly even myself.. dont have the skills to pull it off well enough to be pleasing to the eye.. and it looks so phoney, and so bad.. that it impacts the entire game negatively.
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The thing I do not like the most... is the effects... such as the tire smoke and rain splash. Its wretched ugly... and looks nothing like the real deal. Totally ruins the whole thing for me.
So you want the 80's driving game, which is currently based on arcade games like Outrun....... to be a sim?
Secondly, I'll bet you that you are wrong on how outruns sprites were made (and probably how marble madness was made as well) . You don't give artists nearly enough credit, not everything is tracing a picture or a render.
How much do you want to bet? Tell you what.. Ill be nice, and spare you the loss:
" There's lots of great parts in the postmortem, but I think my favorite is discussing how he uses basic ray-tracing to improve the graphics of Marble Madness, but because of the constraints of the hardware, it all has to be pre-rendered. While amazing-looking, it also entirely crippled Atari's VAX and was only run on the weekends, where it only freaked out a few people who found the machine unusable, while it calculated the handful of rays needed."
http://www.gdconf.com/news/tales_from_the_gdc_vault/tales_from_the_gdc_vault_its_g.html (http://www.gdconf.com/news/tales_from_the_gdc_vault/tales_from_the_gdc_vault_its_g.html)
Im not saying that artists Cant draw realistic pixel art. But there are cases, where its faster to use digitized pre rendered stuff... as well as often producing stuff that even the best artists would have trouble doing.. due to the sheer number of variables that occur in a game. In MM's case... every tiles angle needs a lighting value that is different, so that each tile looks correct. If you make a raised hill.. and one of your shades were off... it would stick out like a sore thumb. I know this due to my art background.. but also, because I actually TRIED to hand draw MMs tiles. Actually I modified Marks tiles with better shading... but kept running into issues where the shades were not right.. and then every time would have to be re-shaded differently. I gave up, and started to try to reproduce them in 3d studio max. The problem is that I suck at 3ds.. and as far as I know, 3ds doesnt have good enough rendering to make the needed depth of color and rays needed. You then need to export 3ds models, into a high power raytracer.. which I had no experience with. The more rays.. the longer it takes.. but the more realistic it will look.
As for Outrun, its more difficult to find art info on it. However:
" On returning to Japan, Yu Suzuki and his team set out to conduct further research. Suzuki had already explored the potential for OutRun’s scenery and environment throughout his European rent-a-car expedition; his team’s next objective was to learn more about the Testarossa, but this was fraught with problems, as Suzuki relates: “Only a tiny number of Testarossas had been brought into Japan, so we had some trouble finding an owner to help us with collecting car data. Eventually, five of us squeezed into a small car and drove for three hours to see a [privately owned] Testarossa. We took photos of it from every side, at five-degree intervals, and we also recorded the sound of the engine.”
http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894882/the_making_of_outrun.html (http://www.nowgamer.com/features/894882/the_making_of_outrun.html)
Every 5 degrees... a photo was taken. Thats pretty much a 3d model, even if you didnt render it with true 3d.
It also describes how the developer drove thru europe, with a camcorder recording video of the various areas that would later be used for the games scenery.
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Good artists copy. So when doing game artwork... actually use your eyes, and research what things look like. If your trying to copy someone elses poor interpretation.. its gets horribly wrong each iteration.. as if its not bad enough already.
Heres some reference material, on how smoke actually looks. This isnt to say, put into the game for a tire skid.. but to show that the crappy methods used by certain clueless companies, which is often followed... is complete garbage, looking Nothing like reality.
Smoke is dense, especially if its freshly made, and depending on the quantity... as well as what kind of thing is being burnt. You cant always easily see through smoke, and even when you can... there are parts of it more dense than others. Being that smoke is like a volume of water.. calculating it in actual 3d volume would be incredibly difficult. So its far better to use an animated effect. Where as colors shift, density reduces, shape changes, and slowly it fades into nothing, in that entire process.
(http://picturesplacesthings.com/Z_SpaceCoastBlogger/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sts-119_2.jpg)
(http://199.101.98.242/media/shots/53898-Afterburner_II_%28J%29-1.jpg)
(http://s1.goodfon.com/wallpaper/previews-middle/363530.jpg)
Ill retain my class and dignity [and obey the forum rules - (mod edit)], by not naming who the real Monkey is around here...
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Sorry to disappoint you Xiaou. I'm sticking with these sprites. The thing is, I like the way they look and it takes a lot of time to do all the graphics by hand (yes, all pixel artwork here). Oh the Lambo is actually modelled using photographs of my real scalemodel Countach so they're pretty accurate. Still some improvements are planned (more animation frames for the car for example).
So if the graphics put you off, it's not the game for you.
Ontopic of the game progress. I'm working on direct-input controls so hopefull it is testable soon on a driving cab. Below a clip of the music selection and on the automatic transmission mode.
The 80s Racer. Work in Progress (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAjSHLx1kUs#)
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Nice work :applaud: How did you do the spectrum analyzers?
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Nice work :applaud: How did you do the spectrum analyzers?
Thanks! I used the MediaPlayer.GetVisualizationData method. Proved easier than I expected :-) It will probably be incoporated into a LCD screen radio graphic when I have the graphics for the music selection done.
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Sorry to disappoint you Xiaou. I'm sticking with these sprites. The thing is, I like the way they look and it takes a lot of time to do all the graphics by hand (yes, all pixel artwork here). Oh the Lambo is actually modelled using photographs of my real scalemodel Countach so they're pretty accurate. Still some improvements are planned (more animation frames for the car for example).
So if the graphics put you off, it's not the game for you.
Ontopic of the game progress. I'm working on direct-input controls so hopefull it is testable soon on a driving cab. Below a clip of the music selection and on the automatic transmission mode.
Thanks for reading anyways.
As for the graphics, I completely understand. Its difficult to do good shading.. especially with animation. However, if your game plays great.. consider asking for a few skilled artists to redraw stuff.
I dont mind the car that much, in fact, I like certain vector style looking games. Even the odd looking trees are not that bad.. but I honestly just cant stand the actual smoke and rain effects. I hope you will accept this request, to put in an option to turn them off. It would be enough for me to enjoy it. It may seem simple, but those visual effects are really hard for an artists eye to deal with.
The music.. its nice to have a somewhat synth sound to it... but it seems a little too relaxed / ambient. It makes you want to drive slow... and or gives the feeling of a slow game. Higher BPM, and a more energetic set of musical tracks, are suggested.
Id personally love to see a real DX-7 or similar Synth, used in realtime midi, for a games music. Maybe even a custom synth machine, built from various emulated systems parts. For example.. Pole Position has this awesome Chior like harmonic tune at the start. If you have that engine... you could possibly use that to compose original tunes using a real synth engine. This would be nice in respects that game size would be vastly smaller.. and yet audio quality, would be without any compromises in quality. Recordings are almost always lossy.. and modern keyboards tend to use the same boring sounding samples, rather than lively unique synth sounds. FM synths tend to have some of the most incredible sounds Ive ever heard.
The other cool feature, if going with recorded audio samples... would be the use of Holographic sounds. Where as you mount two microphones into a human head shaped object. This creates a 3d depth and sensation of positional realism, that even the highest end surround sound system cant replicate. To experience this.. grab a nice pair of high end headphones.. such as the Sennheiser HD series.... and listen to the examples on Holographic Audio on Youtube. Some are quite incredible.
The most simple of changes I think needs to be made currently.. is a check in scale. Your 2 lane highway.. has about 4 to 5 lanes worth of space. I would also increase the length of space between the lines in the road... because they seem to look too close together at the higher level speeds of your game.
Some more of ideas...
- Spectacular crashes, ala outrun, would be great. Spin outs, but maybe unlike Outrun.. can shake out of them... and or make them worse. Full screen rolls, with parts flying all over the place, would be awesome. Even going so far as to intentionally make crashes between other cars happen often.. as seen in Continental Circuit 3D. (Stereoscopic 3d would be awesome too)
- More use of ground texture. Outrun used a lot of rows of flowers, corn fields..etc. Rather than merely a few side objects.. a full row creates a deeper motion feel experience... and a more realistic and even prettier looking experience.
- Narrow roads. Two way traffic. Heavy traffic areas. Erratic drivers & responses.
- Different surface effects.. A Lambo would slide off a curve as easily, or more easily, than a mere pickup truck, on an icy roads curve.
- Possibly one randomly generated track.. where it chooses from several pre-made coarse areas that you designed beforehand. This makes it so that the level is not able to be fully learned in memory... thus never fully master-able. You instead have to be a master of realtime reactions instead.
- 4way shifter support... for greater challenge and fun.
- Possible motion blur effect at higher speeds.
- Way to turn off engine sound... and or reduce their volume. Its nice to hear a roar every now and then.. but it can get grating after a short while. Most cars reduce this, with good insulation.. and the high power cars.. you dont care much because you are too busy feeling the effect of g-forces... tire traction feel, and the roads bumps. I believe most games fade out the engine noise after you get going. Maybe some loud revs.. and thats about it. There could be a 3rd option, to only play the engine on the startup from a dead stop... then fade away in low volume, or fade to being completely silent, until something happens to warrant its noises.
- Larger Objects. Trees can be quite tall. So are buildings, light posts, etc.
- Theme work. Tie objects into level theme looks. Use a color palette that matches all of the obj. on that level.
- Cliff Edges. Turns that dont have guard rails.. .and or you can fly off of them anyways, if you go too fast. Would be fun and great to see your Lambo hit a Rail, tumbling over it in a fast airborne spin, parts flying off randomly, while smoking and on possibly on fire! Then descending out of view of the camera. Possible "ejection' of passengers on impact or spin.
- Possible ability to Knock others around with some mild bumping.
- Optional Engine overheating / Car damage effects. Effecting performance and controls.
** No brakes / Poor brakes
** Rough Ride (bearing / tires / suspension issues)
** Stuck Accelerator >:D
** Exploding / Popped tire
** Aerodynamic slingshot effect?
** Strong gusts of winds, making steering difficult (FFB & or less sensitivity / reaction)
** Strong rains / slippery roads.. easier to slide off the road.
** Violent reaction to running off road, and too long = visible vertical bucking & harsh damages.
** Clutch pedal option
** Airtime. Too fast = hop off road.. and landing too hard can have multiple negative effects. Realistic, not like Rush... so you really have to be careful on certain areas, with regards to your speeds.
** Random events... such as AI wrecks, sideswipes, people or animals running in the way. (deer wrecks! heh)
** Possible Railway crossings, and Intersections.. where crazy side impacts can occur.
** Torn up road areas... such as city streets with huge potholes. Road work signs. Pits. Parked cars / Construction vehicles.
** Custom LIC plate for multiplayer identity. Possible custom car colors, using pallette swaps.
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** Custom music library MP3 jukebox Support.
A reason to play it: .. Difficulty, Fast Intensity, and good Challenge. Something severely missing from the snorefest in recent Outruns.
Driving a fast car, should Feel fast and intense. Should get your heart pumping, and adrenalin fired up.
(and IMO, a greater sensation of depth, with good shading, focus blue, color intensity changes, and lighting practices, all help to add to the sum of that sensation.. and re-playability)
Btw - Ever play Final Freeway 2R?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNkAPMqamU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpNkAPMqamU)
Its ok.. and has some of the effect Ive mentioned. It just has that cartoon look for a lot of the objects.. that kind of ruins it for me.
If memory serves me well, it was fast feeling.. but not anywhere near the challenge of Outrun.. so I never bothered to play it more than twice.
The music is ok too.. but it seems too overproduced & generic. Repetitive, too full, and not overly creative. Plus.. its on a phone.. so control is not the greatest. Its just a poor platform for good gaming... at least, with regards to controllers being a 2nd seat to generic tilting, or finger sliding. (which stink) As a result.. all Devs cater to the most common crippled controls.. and thus the games have very poor challenge levels.
I do wonder if its possible to make banked angles look good on a sprite & vector race game. I dont think Ive seen this yet.
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but I honestly just cant stand the actual smoke and rain effects. I hope you will accept this request, to put in an option to turn them off. It would be enough for me to enjoy it.
I'm sorry, I'm not going to disable those effects. I'm really happy how the rain turned out (it's better than most 80s arcade games where the rain was just a layer of sprites moving down the screen).
It may seem simple, but those visual effects are really hard for an artists eye to deal with.
If you consider yourself an artist, then you will also understand that as an artist you can stick to your artistic intentions. I wanted the rain to look cheesy yet a convincing 80s graphics rain effect. And I think that is exactly it.
The music.. its nice to have a somewhat synth sound to it... but it seems a little too relaxed / ambient.
The music is a work in progress. I'm not a musician myself so I have a friend arranging the scores for me. It will be plain and simple MP3s that work as a background tune. Stuff like "Holographic sounds"... You are aware that I'm just a guy who programs this game as a hobby?
The most simple of changes I think needs to be made currently.. is a check in scale. Your 2 lane highway.. has about 4 to 5 lanes worth of space. I would also increase the length of space between the lines in the road... because they seem to look too close together at the higher level speeds of your game.
The video doesn't show, but I have full control over the road width and the number of lanes as part of the road-definition.
Some more of ideas...
Some suggestions are workable (some even planned such as the outrun flip style crash).
For some other suggestions, I don't know if I can implement them (without doing a ton of research) or don't match the kind of game I plan to make. It's not going to be the next Burnout but in 2D sprites.
Btw - Ever play Final Freeway 2R?
Yes, I have (bought the full version actually, I like the game!)
If you are turned off by a game with such production values. Sorry to say, but man, my game isn't going to be your cup of tea.
I do wonder if its possible to make banked angles look good on a sprite & vector race game. I dont think Ive seen this yet.
Racin' Force by Konami. It used a voxel engine to render it's roads.
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I'm sorry, I'm not going to disable those effects. I'm really happy how the rain turned out (it's better than most 80s arcade games where the rain was just a layer of sprites moving down the screen).
Actually, I should have clarified.. Its not the rain that bugs me. Thats actually a decent effect. (although, know that when your car makes a turn... and the rain is still going the same vector... Umm.. )
Its the water splashing effect off the tires, that is a real bust.
Its completely random.. where as a cars wheels would toss out the water in more of a direct line vector. It becomes almost comedic as a result. But it speaks more of ignorance and laziness, than anything else.
Its almost like theres this idea that people from the 80s, made things cheesy on purpose... and as a result of this warped thinking... you wish to recreate that. I can tell you that its furthest from the truth. Evidence was already posted, in the case of Out Run.. which the developer actually traveled to different countries to get the look.. as well as getting a full set of accurate pictures of the car.. among all the rest that was done.
The only thing that limited these games, was the hardware circuitry. Not the artists laziness or ignorance. The only cases where there may be such a thing...is where some cheapo studio was cutting every corner, forcing time limits on projects, and or replacing the main artists with some clueless joe. (which honesty seems like the case these days more than the days from the past. IE - A 3d modeler.. doesnt mean your a true artist.. or even a good animator. Hence the unholy creation that is Jar Jar Binks)
You can take personal offense if you wish.. but Im just being honest, and I dont have anything against you personally... I dont even know you. And even if we knew each other as good friends... Id STILL tell you the same things. And trust me, Im NOT the only one who would look at these things as ridiculous, and do an internal face-palm.
If you consider yourself an artist, then you will also understand that as an artist you can stick to your artistic intentions. I wanted the rain to look cheesy yet a convincing 80s graphics rain effect. And I think that is exactly it.
If your an artist, then you are keen to know the basic structures and principles of light, shadows, colors..etc. Otherwise, you are NOT an artist... or at very least, are a very poor artists. Especially in attitude, when glaring issues are reported and you ignore them.. rather than repair them.
And there it is... the Slap in the face of the artists works. If Out Run is so CHEESY, then why is it the alltime Favorite of pretty much every gamer out there? Why are there tons of fansites, artworks, remakes, and ports of the game, ports of the original, and more?
Nope. Its far from cheesy. Even a game like TX-1 isnt Cheesy. Nor is Galaga. Pacman. Or Space Invaders. These are all artistic creations. Unique and creative. And all bound to various limitations of hardware.. such as Limited colors, limited resolutions, limited number of objects on the screen at once. Limited Ram and Rom memory... so even with larger color pallettes, and higher resolution.. you Still could not put a ton of details into sprites and background tiles. (There was not hard drive ram swapping back then)
If you want to recreate an 80s game... then prove your metal. Limit yourself to the same color palette, same number of objs., same low resolution of for example, Outruns 336 * 240.
In fact, many people who call themselves artists today... cant produce good looking pixel art without high resolution graphics, cheating photoshop techniques, etc. Try a basic sprite / pixel editor like the Amigas Deluxe paint, on an Amiga emulator. See if you can actually make some well shaded objects that look good. Most cant. Im not even that good at it.. but Im well aware and respect those who can greatly.
Strider and Ghouls and Ghost, are two games where real artistic talent is presented, even with incredible limits on resolution, color, and memory constraints. Then have someone call it cheesy. A lot of those guys could out-do anything you are capable of, when not having limitations to deal with. Even WITH these limits, made some incredible and beautiful creations... that again, are probably way past your level of skills, by Miles.
My Brother, is a far better and True artist, than myself. Hes partially color blind. He sees the world differently, but he also retains the natural rules of art, such as proper shading, coloring, lighting, perspective...etc.. In fact, its his lacking that seemed to amplify his ability to recognize and master these basic foundations and principles of good art. Hes won awards and contests all his childhood as a result. In fact, it was him who schooled me many a time at my artistic failings... which only helped to make me a better artist. Though, Id still never compare to his level of ability... I at least do everything in my power, to represent the foundations properly. Copying and borrowing things from others to help as needed... until Ive gotten a certain level of mastery of my own. (and or handing it off to someone else more skilled to fill in)
It isnt Cheesy being stuck to media limitations. It IS Cheesy is being lazy and ignorant... and doing things like random and unnatural things... and then trying to pass it off as being Artistic. Even good artist who choose to work in limited restraints, such as only using 2 colors, or only using a 2" brush...etc.. all still use the same artistic principles... of natural physical properties.
The music is a work in progress. I'm not a musician myself so I have a friend arranging the scores for me. It will be plain and simple MP3s that work as a background tune. Stuff like "Holographic sounds"... You are aware that I'm just a guy who programs this game as a hobby?
Good that you acknowledge that you are incapable of Music. Too bad you dont do the same for art. But anyways... You put it out there, and people have opinions, so there is mine. You can pass it along to see if he can improve on them... or find someone more capable of representing the needed energy and good compositional musical skills. Many people whom make music these days.. are sample arrangers.. rather than actual trained musicians and composers. Hence the lack of any real emotional impact in a games music and sounds. As well as the droning boring non-creative repetition. Good rhythm, isnt the same thing as telling a story... or expressing some emotions.
As for what you think you are.. thats your choice. Im a guy with a lot of passion.. and no matter what I do, I put everything Ive got into it...because I love what Im doing, and I love expressing my passions to their fullest extent. I like the challenges. I like doing things that push the envelope. I like creating great things. I also like helping to create great things.
Using two microphones to record a sound isnt rocket science. But if its beyond you, and or your time constraints.. find a sound effect guy to help accomplish it. Maybe even a guy who has passion and experience in Holographic sound recordings. And for music, Id look for someone with classic training & optimally, an FM Synth - Master.
es, I have (bought the full version actually, I like the game!)
If you are turned off by a game with such production values. Sorry to say, but man, my game isn't going to be your cup of tea.
How many hours have you played the game? And do you continue to keep playing the game every few times a month?
Thats what a good game is. I played it a few times, then never fired it up again. Where as Ill play Spy Hunter, or even Outrun, quite often...
I guess I wasnt clear enough on my meaning.. I think the look of that game is better the the previous attempt at photo pasting. But the cartoon look does turn me off a little, as it feels less like Outrun, and so its a bit of a let down. But the real problem I have with the game.. is its too easy and too boring. Theres little intensity at all. In Outrun, even on the 1st track.. the S-Turn would wreck you if you were not on your game. And it only got more intense as you went on deeper in the game. The control sucks too.. as mobile phones are just not made for good gaming, at this time.
racin' force
Interesting to note about the Voxel engine. Thanks.
The banks look decent.. but the game overall looks a bit too generic. It would be interesting to see banked curves on an Outrun style game.. maybe using the Afterburner II hardware to do it.. if necessary.. or making a unique hardware add-on or emulation simulation add-on.
Just remember, if your making a game for you... then expect that only you are going to fully appreciate it the same way you do.
If your making it for masses, then expect criticisms, and discontent.
IMO, stick to your strengths. In your case, it seems to be programming. I can barely program in basic, so I respect that skill greatly.
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I'm an artist - I went to art school and everything! Then I decided it was a much more fun and rewarding career to travel to foreign lands, meet the indigenous peoples, and kill them! Now I'm a freakin' artist with a rifle baby yeah!
This game looks tits! Keep it up! I love the Hang-on vibe. This post needs more exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As for what you think you are.. thats your choice. Im a guy with a lot of passion.. and no matter what I do, I put everything Ive got into it...because I love what Im doing, and I love expressing my passions to their fullest extent. I like the challenges. I like doing things that push the envelope. I like creating great things. I also like helping to create great things.
I also do things with passion. I also know where my limits are -mostly timewise. I have a fulltime job and three kids. Perhaps sticking two microphones in a mannequin sounds like a simple thing to do -certainly not "rocket science", but recording sounds and using them in a music composition or even as game sounds is a considerable amount of work (for an effect that is certainly not 80s like).
Just remember, if your making a game for you... then expect that only you are going to fully appreciate it the same way you do.
If your making it for masses, then expect criticisms, and discontent.
I am quite capable dealing with critique. It would be nice if the one providing the critique could also see the limits of how far to take it. As I said in the previous post; some of the points you made are noted, some are beyond what I'm currently capable of and some are a matter of difference in taste. This has nothing to do my "attitude" where "glaring issues" are not fixed. This has something to do with your definition on what a glaring issue is versus my definition. Which brings me to:
You can take personal offense if you wish..
Normally I don't take personal offense. But you called me "lazy", "ignorant", a "warped thinker", "trying to pass things of as artistic" and that I should tell you that I'm not capable of doing art ("you are incapable of Music. Too bad you dont do the same for art.") and having "an attitude" because I don't fix the issues YOU seem to have with my game.
Dunno what that looks like to you but it sounds pretty much like you in fact are attacking me. An that's what bothers me. If you just said "the graphics is not my taste, I'd like it with some realistic lighting." that would be fine critique. Instead you come with a wall of text explaining how it should be done and that the handdrawn (in the MS-DOS version of DeluxePaint II Enhanced) lamborgini's aren't worthy of being called pixel art. I don't know if you've seen the image attached to post #4, but the shading, shadowing looks fine to me.
It is not even critique anymore- it's you wanting to be right. And going lengths trying to prove that.
Oh and for the record: I never said Outrun (or any other game for that matter) is cheesy. I called my rain effect 'cheesy' to indicate that it is faux and unrealistic but I still like the way it looks. Sorry you interpret that as my opinion of 80s games (being born in the 70s, I only have fond perhaps rose-tinted memories of the 80s). Perhaps I didn't fully understand the implication the word 'cheesy' has (may be a language thing- I'm not a native English speaker). So that could have saved you a few paragraphs of text ;)
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I'm an artist - I went to art school and everything! Then I decided it was a much more fun and rewarding career to travel to foreign lands, meet the indigenous peoples, and kill them! Now I'm a freakin' artist with a rifle baby yeah!
This game looks tits! Keep it up! I love the Hang-on vibe. This post needs more exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks Le Chuck :-) That cheered me up!
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I also do things with passion. I also know where my limits are -mostly timewise. I have a fulltime job and three kids. Perhaps sticking two microphones in a mannequin sounds like a simple thing to do -certainly not "rocket science", but recording sounds and using them in a music composition or even as game sounds is a considerable amount of work (for an effect that is certainly not 80s like).
Congrats on kids, and others. I dont know your situation, I only know what you presented.. what Id love to see implemented, and that you asked for ideas on improvements.. so thats what I gave. You made it sound like my suggestion was impossible, hence my return reply.
Believe it or not, the 70s and 80s, were a time when they pushed the limits of what was possible, at every turn. The 70s, had complex mechanical gun games, that used half-silvered mirrors to produce 3d holographic effects. They had crazy mechanical solutions to solve complex scoring systems in pinball and other mechanical games. They had some very awesome mechanical games of skill, such as the multiplayer Big Ball Bowlers, Puck slider games, and much more.
The 80s were the golden era of the video based games, with some of the best and most interesting classics games being produced. Many of the 80s games pushed the limits with very unique controllers, subwoofers (sega turbo), Quadrphonic Surround Sound (TX-1), incredible cabinet lighting effects (Discs of Tron: Blacklight glowing plastics, a true holographic marquee, half silvered mirrors for game depth, lit flooring, and front and rear speakers), moving cabinets, and much more... too much to even write... Sega's sound system was actually very 3-d sounding... and later, Capcom would use Q-Sound, in their games, to enhance the positional sound field.
Now we have all this technology and power... and nobody even scratches the surface with it... and or does not have the time, energy, or money.. to make anything worthwhile.. let alone revolutionary. Its pretty much all generic garbage, thats too easy, boring, and filled with unskilled / non-qualified efforts... which takes it down in quality even further. It starts to get under your skin, when you have lived through the golden era of entertainment... only to end up in the sewers of blah ville. And no, this isnt a dig on you personally.. its the state of the entire set of industries... from music, movies, and games.
This has nothing to do my "attitude" where "glaring issues" are not fixed. This has something to do with your definition on what a glaring issue is versus my definition. Which brings me to:
Please, do not try to mix things up here. I didnt bash you because you may or may not choose to put in 4way shifter support. And its also your choice, the number of colors and game resolution. But when you put a seriously flawed effect of water coming off a cars tires at completely random ways.. and represent them as a kid stomping his foot into a puddle... rather than being Flung from spinning force... then YES.. it IS a Glaring error.
Please, go and spin a bike tire, that is hovering in 1" or more of water. See what happens. Does it look ANYTHING like your effect?
This has little to do with artistic interpretation.. Its simple basic reality here. Its like me asking someone to draw a dog.. and rather than getting a disproportionate dog.... I get a dog that has a neck of a Giraffe, and claws for feet. Its not a result thats even close.
Also, if you chose the Artistic Interpretive argument.. then you have to stay within the bounds of that argument. Take a look at Impressionists paintings on Google. The ENTIRE painting, is a unique and slightly distorted way of expression. Where as your game, has everything that matches general reality... but then goes off the deep end, on smoke and tire splashing effect.. to the point where we have to concede we are on some alternate universe, where general physics do not apply - at all.
It might be what you are capable of. It may be that you dont understand or have time to figure out how to make these things better... but they ARE mistakes.
As I said, I dont mind the car not being well shaded. Id enjoy it better, if it was shaded in a diagonally lit manor, a manor that would match all the objects shading in the game... but, I can live with limited shading, flat look. This part IS an Artistic choice in representation. But those effects are ghastly, ugly, and unbearable. They Ruin the nice look of the car... and the whole look of the game period. The trees tunnel was kinda cheesy too, but even thats tolerable compared to those effects.
If you just said "the graphics is not my taste, I'd like it with some realistic lighting." that would be fine critique. Instead you come with a wall of text explaining how it should be done and that the handdrawn (in the MS-DOS version of DeluxePaint II Enhanced) lamborgini's aren't worthy of being called pixel art. I don't know if you've seen the image attached to post #4, but the shading, shadowing looks fine to me.
It is not even critique anymore- it's you wanting to be right. And going lengths trying to prove that.
Again, you are twisting the words meanings, and taking the context and messing it up.
The problem with NOON or Top-Lit objects... is that it makes the definition very boring and flat looking. This is why most art is drawn with light at an angle. It also means that shadows will not extend and give any real depth. So for example, trees will have pretty much a circle shadow around it.. rather than a nice shadow that hangs over the roads surface.
Also, The mere use of only 3 color shades for the body, makes it hard to consider it "shaded". But again, this is all fine... as that is your chosen flat looking artistic choice. Im not a huge fan of it, but its not bad at all. Its well drawn. Its just not "great". Nor realistic... like the shading on the outrun car. Thats all personal opinion.
But the tire water effect, and the smoke effect, are not mere opinion.. they are just plain wrong... and it has Nothing to do with me wanting or needing to be 'right'. Ive been wrong many times in my life, and can admit it.. and live with it. My goal in life isnt to be right. I may be right a lot of the time, merely because Ive invested a lot of time, energy, and efforts, into the stuff I have passion and depth of knowedge and skills in. But thats not why I posted. I posted, because Id love to see a great 80s racer... in the Spirit of the 80s, but with the technological limits that held the 80s games back. Such as for example.. Did you know that Spy Hunter had planned a Helicopter stage? Sadly, they ran out of Ram and Time... so it was scrapped.
Perhaps I didn't fully understand the implication the word 'cheesy' has (may be a language thing- I'm not a native English speaker). So that could have saved you a few paragraphs of text ;)
Got ya. It aggravated and somewhat insulted me, by calling the 80s / 80s games Cheesy. (hence the more harsh reply) I happen to Love the 80s, probably more than any other time period.
By the way... Cheesy is more negative in meaning:
- Cheap, unpleasant, or blatantly inauthentic.
- Inferior or cheap; chintzy: The movie's special effects are cheesy and unconvincing.
Its quite easy for meanings to cause issues of good communications. Ive had this happen a few times here.. where others whom were not native speakers of english, have misunderstood what I was trying to say... and possibly I not fully getting what they were trying to say.
Ive said what I have to say, for what Ive seen. The real test will be in the gameplay anyways. Its the most difficult part of the game.. and the very reason why some games are a hit, and others failures.
Best of Luck on your games future progress.
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:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:
I look forward to your project thread Xiaou2, I cant wait to critique the 80s racing game you make Im sure it will be artistically perfect for both audio and video, and Im sure the controls will put Hard Drivin to shame.
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Ontopic of the game progress. I'm working on direct-input controls so hopefull it is testable soon on a driving cab. Below a clip of the music selection and on the automatic transmission mode.
The 80s Racer. Work in Progress (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAjSHLx1kUs#)
Felsir, this looks awesome! Totally gives me a vibe back to racers I played in the 80's, and I think the smoke looks great. Looking forward to more :)
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Brings to mind the feel of Stun Runner and Space Harrier.
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Mel,
Everything I do gets put up on some lame website.. didnt you know?
But dont worry, I was barely able to program a c-64 in basic. And while I compose inside of my head... what Id like to hear... Id never learned to play any instruments.
I can draw pretty well. Ive good good color sense. Ive got decent ability in composition. And Im an idea / design factory...
But I just dont have the money, to get the talented team I need, behind me.
One day... maybe... but then again, maybe not.
Just because I cant make a Star Wars Prequel... does not mean I have to enjoy them.
Nor does it mean I... or anyone, shouldnt be allowed to have a very strong opinion on where all those films reels should be inserted...
Same and more relavent... is the Butchery of the Originals with that Bogus quality CGI.
Cheers Buddy.
:cheers:
PS: Im sorry if Ive offended you, as maybe you Loved the "Gummy-Bear" Yoda fight scene, and Jar Jar- Wabbits Antics...
:dizzy:
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And Steve - for the love of my blood pressure and sanity.... I value the interaction of people with different ideas and dissenting opinions, but at some point you just have to agree to disagree and let it go. There's a fine line between arguing your point, and thread-bombing. You're kind of stomping that line into a mud pile.
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Mel,
Who is Mel? The guy who owned the Diner?
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Everything I do gets put up on some lame website.. didnt you know?
I know what you mean man... I've had my projects put on sites like kotaku, engadget, time, hackaday, gizmodo, yahoo!, msnbc, and all kinds of other dreary cheesy lame ass websites. It's. such. a. drag. And I'm willing to bet if the OP sees this through he'll likely have to put up with the rigamarole and assache of having his project on some of those and maybe more. I'm with you X2, this internet stuff is hard.
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There's a fine line between arguing your point, and thread-bombing. You're kind of stomping that line into a mud pile.
This.
It's no fun to see a cool thread and then you have to read through the muck and filter out the BS looooong paragraphs about something I honestly I don't care about. If it's that important, send a PM!
Please think before posting people... Please...
P.S. - Felsir, that game looks great! Can't wait to see the progress...
DeLuSioNaL29
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Love the game. Keep it up. It has the *LOOK AND FEEL* of an 80s arcade game which probably had the equivalent graphic output capabilities as a Trash80.
AJ
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Thanks for the nice words :)
I added clouds; the clouds and fog are controllable by the track definition (so the sky can turn dark and visibility can be reduced on the fly). There will be more skyline/horizon graphics with parallax scrolling- the clouds are the first bitmaps that are done.
Also I added 4 views (incar, close, chase and chase high) similar to SEGA VR style viewpoints. I think the close and chase-high viewpoints are closer to the views suggested earlier in this thread. I could move the "high" viewpoint up a bit more but tunnels obscure the view- so I'm thinking of lowering the camera automatically when an overhead object would obstruct the view.
I'm working on the controls -but I only have a Xbox360 gamepad to test. Hopefully I can get a demo out next week if some of you are willing to test it for me.
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What are the hardware requirements? I only have a P4 with onboard video running my arcade.
AJ
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Hopefully I can get a demo out next week if some of you are willing to test it for me.
I'm down! Ask around I'm a half decent test subject!!!!! <---- for emphasis
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What are the hardware requirements? I only have a P4 with onboard video running my arcade.
The biggest question will probably be can your videocard handle HLSL shaders? I use one for the fog effect (the scanlines can be disabled). Also it uses the XNA framework which has some prerequisites: DirectX9 IIRC.
If your onboad video can handle (simple) shaders, it should be okay. But honestly- it's something to test I guess.
LeChuck: noted!
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Yeah, it's a bit underpowered, but I am able to run Killer Instinct 1 and 2 on it. Once anything requires rendering polygons (i.e. Tekken), it all goes *poof*.
AJ
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I'm working on the controls -but I only have a Xbox360 gamepad to test. Hopefully I can get a demo out next week if some of you are willing to test it for me.
I could give you feedback on trying to run it on a laptop with intel graphics. I don't have any special controls hooked up though.
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Now that I'm finally out of bed permanently I just wanted to chime in and say how impressed I am with the recent updates.
It looks amazing man, keep up the great work!
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I agree, its shaping up to be a great little game. As for testing I have an i7 powered desktop with redonk specs, and an i5 powered rig for my racing set up. I'd be more than happy to give things a whirl for you.
Also, I do a little sprite art, I can try to whip up some car frames for you if you'd like.
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I've compiled a test version, downloadable from my dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
it's an XNA game so you might need the XNA runtime: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=20914 (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=20914)
The game is far from complete, but it give a rough idea of the gameplay. I'm also curious to learn if the game runs okay on various systems. In the zipfile you will also find a .ini file where you can set up various things (screen resolutions and keyboard settings etc). Not all graphics are in place and the traffic movement is very (very) plain.
There are lots of things on my to-do list, but the first thing is getting the game modes running with proper start-checkpoint-finish mechanics. I also plan to improve the level editor I made for the game so people who are interested can help out making tracks for the game (see attached screenshot).
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i7 870, 4GB RAM, NVidia Quardo FX 580, 5.9 Win7 32 experience index and it runs at a rock solid 62fps.
Didn't display any car sprites the first time I opened it. Was fine the second time.
Cute game. Xiaou2 really stepped over the line.
:cheers:
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Love the progress you've been making. Can't wait to see this finished.
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(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136713.0;attach=305585;image)
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=136713.0;attach=305587;image)
Win7 64bit. Sadly, my SSD is my "choke point"
Locked at 62 fps the whole time. The rain effect is TOP NOTCH, absolutely love it. The smoking tire effect actually looks too real, can you make it look crummier (like in outrun?). For fun I hit a cow, and it must have been made of metal judging by the sound effect :p
Still, its an amaze-balls beta. Im more than willing to make the sprites for the car crashing ala OutRun as well.
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good stuff.
I got 62 fps on a phenom x4 945 and 550ti card. Can I get the logo and some other artwork? I use hyperspin and i like having themes for my games. Even if its still in alpha/beta.
keep it up. I got agree the rain is pretty cool. hopefully you have it showing up the floor too.
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Sweet! Locked in 62fps with no slow down on an intel core duo 2.1 running a cheapo g-force 200.
Gameplay is classic fun and the game is very VERY polished for a beta. I'll test more out later but wanted to get the initial data and first feedback up. :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
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Not that we really need more confirmation... but....
i3 3.07GHz, 4GB ram, Win 7 64 Bit, Radeon HD 6570, 5.9 experience index - rock solid 62 fps
When you're done with this, how about working on Gauntlet Legends emulation?
:lol
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HA! It didn't load on my P4 with onboard video. Couldn't find a suitable video card.
Then again, I'm sure that if I ever build a driving cab it won't be based around a GX2670 :laugh2: :laugh2:
AJ
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Thanks for the positive comments!
I got agree the rain is pretty cool. hopefully you have it showing up the floor too.
I'll see if I can get some kind of effect for that.
Im more than willing to make the sprites for the car crashing ala OutRun as well.
I'm working on a method to add artwork separated from the code- so you can make your own sprites and test them directly in the game. Once I have the crash-flip animation worked out I'll post the dimensions etc.
Perhaps you can create a different cars so players can select between different models? I've added the current car sprites for reference.
Can I get the logo and some other artwork? I use hyperspin and i like having themes for my games. Even if its still in alpha/beta.
Logo attached!
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Being a (scalemodel) Lamborghini countach owner, wouldn't it be easier for you to put a (scalemodel) crash test dummy inside your countach and crash it, then pixellate the "flying" car shots? Well, you need a good camera for that, but ... ;D
(just kidding :lol)
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If anyone working on sprites wants the outrun ones as a guide, here is a sheet of them for the genesis version:
https://www.spriters-resource.com/genesis_32x_scd/outrun/sheet/25458/ (https://www.spriters-resource.com/genesis_32x_scd/outrun/sheet/25458/)
F40 https://www.spriters-resource.com/genesis_32x_scd/turbooutrun/sheet/36254/ (https://www.spriters-resource.com/genesis_32x_scd/turbooutrun/sheet/36254/)
I couldn't find them for the original, but Reassembler made a tool to view them when he made Cannonball:
http://reassembler.blogspot.com/2012/11/sega-system-16-sprite-viewer.html (http://reassembler.blogspot.com/2012/11/sega-system-16-sprite-viewer.html)
While looking for those, I came across this interesting idea for Outrun Nights..
http://boingboing.net/2013/01/17/tell-us-about-the-games-you-al.html (http://boingboing.net/2013/01/17/tell-us-about-the-games-you-al.html)
(http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/outrun1.png)
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Found this. Link to the pic works, but link to the page doesn't so I don't know who to credit.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/shadowlink001/mercadiesspritesheets.gif (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/shadowlink001/mercadiesspritesheets.gif)
Could work as a guide for larger sprites.
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Found this. Link to the pic works, but link to the page doesn't so I don't know who to credit.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/shadowlink001/mercadiesspritesheets.gif (http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a218/shadowlink001/mercadiesspritesheets.gif)
Could work as a guide for larger sprites.
Thats GT Racing for SNES. I know because of the Supra :)
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Ok if we are pulling sprites out of games, there is an oddball tg-16 knight rider game called "Knight Rider Special" The sprites are around the same resolution as maybe rad-racer, but it's KITT and therefore awesome.
Oh and Rad Racer. ;)
Need a 70's era trans-am as well. For the bandit of course.
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Ok I finally got a chance to play this for a few minutes today. I've got a couple of suggestions that should be easy to implement. First off, you might want to add a horn. It takes next to no coding (play a sound when this button is pressed) and horns are fun. Also something that rad racer used to do and is a really nice gimmick is the ability to coast in when time runs out. Instead of slamming on the breaks when time ran out it would just decelerate you very gradually. So sometimes if you were close, you could coast to the next checkpoint.
Keep up the good work man.
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Ok I finally got a chance to play this for a few minutes today. I've got a couple of suggestions that should be easy to implement. First off, you might want to add a horn. It takes next to no coding (play a sound when this button is pressed) and horns are fun. Also something that rad racer used to do and is a really nice gimmick is the ability to coast in when time runs out. Instead of slamming on the breaks when time ran out it would just decelerate you very gradually. So sometimes if you were close, you could coast to the next checkpoint.
Keep up the good work man.
Thanks :-) yes a horn will be easy enough!
What you describe (coasting) is already implemented, if you run out of time the car decelerates if you then cross the checkpoint you "get back in the game". (You may have encountered it where it was not working: in the demo I simply load the track 4 times, then it loops but the startline does not trigger the 'checkpoint').
I might make the deceleration more gradually.
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Well it doesn't halt to a stop, but it doesn't exactly coast either. Unless this is an improvement not in the build you released. On Rad Racer you could coast almost a mile if you were going at top speed when the timer ran out. I'm sure there's some nerdy formula out there to calculate coast from a given speed. Just a suggestion though.
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Well it doesn't halt to a stop, but it doesn't exactly coast either. Unless this is an improvement not in the build you released. On Rad Racer you could coast almost a mile if you were going at top speed when the timer ran out. I'm sure there's some nerdy formula out there to calculate coast from a given speed. Just a suggestion though.
I'll check RadRacer and see if I can find youtube videos of it. It's the kind of suggestions I like- so keep 'm coming :-)
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I agree with his assessment. It should feel more like the gas pedal is disabled, and less like the brake pedal is engaged.
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Just wanted to chime in with some love. Great job!
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Well it doesn't halt to a stop, but it doesn't exactly coast either. Unless this is an improvement not in the build you released. On Rad Racer you could coast almost a mile if you were going at top speed when the timer ran out. I'm sure there's some nerdy formula out there to calculate coast from a given speed. Just a suggestion though.
I'll check RadRacer and see if I can find youtube videos of it. It's the kind of suggestions I like- so keep 'm coming :-)
You should download it and play a few rounds. It was meant as a competitor to outrun and in most instances it fell short, but it had a few features like this that really made it stand out. It also gave you the ability to change the song while driving (hint hint).
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The mile long coasts were one of the reasons I disliked Rad Racer
Different strokes
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The mile long coasts were one of the reasons I disliked Rad Racer
Different strokes
I like the coasts too, but I found that if I had to coast a CP I wasn't long for the world and was usually dead by the next CP. Six of one, half a dozen of the other IMO.
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Well it's only good for the final leg. One of the things that is incredibly frustrating about outrun is sometimes you'll be at the goal, can literally see the finish line and run out of time a few feet from it. Coasting solves this problem.
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I have a new update of the game. In the .ini file you can adjust the "coastfactor" which basically is a multiplier to the decelleration once it it timeover. A factor of 1.0 means the decelleration is equal to the no-gas decelleration during the race, a factor of 0.0 means the car decellerates really really slow. I'm curious what you feel is the optimal value.
I also added a horn (configure the key in the ini file as well).
But best of all, I have included the track editor. It is a crude editor but it gets the job done (there might be bugs in the layout editor). You can save your track files and test them in the game. Currently it only supports art that is already in the game but it should give you an impression of what the racegame can achieve so far. Also I'm looking for tracks to include in the game so if you have a fun track, feel free to share!
Keep in mind that the track-snow and track-dutch files must remain in place (the title sequence currently preselects them).
For tracks there are two things to keep in mind: the height of the start and finish should both be zero. Thus the sum of all height changes should equal zero in the end. The other thing: the race timer is fixed on 60 at start and 40 at each checkpoint which roughtly equals 2000 - 2200 sections.
I'll post a quick rundown of how the editor works later. But I think you can figure most out by loading the dutch and snow tracks.
Controls for the editor are mouse and mousewheel to move between sections (use the leftshift+mousewheel to move in 10 sections at a time). Pageup and Pagedown zoom in and out.
Download it from my dropbox here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
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The layout editor works as follows:
Use mousewheel to move up and down the track. Holding the left shift while scrolling the mousewheel you can move faster.
You can add segments by clicking the "New Segm." or "Quick Segm." buttons. The New Segment button provides a dialog with the following options:
Lead-in the number of segments that "ease in" the turns or trackwidth values
Hold the number of segments to hold a turn or width
Lead-out the number of segments that "ease in" the turns or trackwidth values
Curve The curve value- ranging from -6 to +6. A curve value of 0 means straight, negative is a left and positive a right turn.
Height The height change reached over the number of sections. Positive means up, negative down.
Width How wide the road will be. 0.5 means a thin road. Values above 1 up to 2 make the road split.
Lanes A visual effect only. How many lanes does the road have.
The "Edit Segm." button produces the dialog for the segment hilighted in red.
You can add scenary by using the "New Scenary" button. The dialog has the following options:
List of sprites The sprite to be used. You can select multiple sprites, and the engine will select a random sprite from the selection.
Minoffset and Maxoffset The range between the sprites should be displayed. 0.00 is the center of the road -1.00 or +1.00 are the road edges. You can set a range and the engine will place sprites random between those ranges. The checkbox aligns both sliders.
Start and End the segment element IDs that start and end the sprites.
Interval how many segments should be skipped between sprites. For example a road sign can be repeated every 10 segments. While you might want a small forest at every segment with an interval of 1.
Elevation used for tunnellike structures. I don't have many graphics for that yet, but it's in there.
Stretched used for ground texture-like sprites- such as the tulips in the dutch level.
Mirror options Select if you want to mirror (for example a turnright sign used in a left turn) or if you want variation pick random (for example the cows, they are oriented randomly).
The weather dialogs work similar.
Start and End much like the roadside sprites.
Leadin/outstart and end the weather effect gradually.
Amount the number of particles per section. A value of 50 is okay for snow, 75 is probably enough for rain. (the drawing distance is 300 sections; thus with 50 snowflakes per section, you'll see plenty of snowflakes).
An icon depicting snow or rain on the track shows where the weather is located.
Then there are the colors:
You can define palettes. Some colors have a far and a near value; you can set the color at the horizon (far) and at the camera (near). Some values have alternating colors (the road, rumble strips, grass).
The Fog value works like this: the near value is the distance where the colors will be clear. The far value is the distance where the colors will be faded. This can be used to produce a fog or night effect.
The "P. Change" means palette change. You can add a palette transition at point on the track. Pick a palette you have defined and the index of the section on the track (by default the cursor position is shown). The time 30 means 3 seconds for the transition to take place. note that the palette changes are by palette name; if you delete the palette the change will produce a fault in the game.
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I tried the new version. Horn and Coast work great. I prefer about .75 btw. I'm not sure if it was a glitch or if I was just barely under the line, but I intentionally let the timer run down and then coasted to the line for a test and even though my car was on the line when the coast ran out, I still got a game over. Again this is iffy so if I get time I'll try to test some more.
Also I think I found an oddball bug. It seems like the view button doesn't work the first time unless you let off the gas. I'm using a 360 controller and every time I have to stop initially to change views. After that it works fine.
Keep up the good work man.
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Ah, the viewpoint wasn't correctly initialized for the 360 controller. I also found a bug in the steering controls when using the controller (I mostly test using the keyboard).
I have a few more improvement in the pipeline. However- I'm having a crunch time at work so I probably won't be able to work on the game this week :'(
Has anyone tried the layout editor yet?
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Has anyone tried the layout editor yet?
I haven't since my original pre-beta testing. I'd like to make an entire track, but it will be weeks before I find the time. :-\
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Yeah I had the same problem. I opened it up... fiddled with it a little, but doing a whole track would be a massive time sink.
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Im working on one. Hopefully swapping assets will be easy to do if you decide to keep the track and use it for a diff level :p
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Switching scenary shouldn't be a big issue- either by a search-and-replace of spritenames in the XML or by picking different sprites via the editor.
Looking forward to the track!
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I've made a quick update especialy intended for people with driving controls. Since I don't have a steeringwheel controller I'll have to do some testing and rely on your input.
So this update has some debug info for me displayed below the framerate counter. I'd like to learn what values change if you turn the wheel and hit the acellerator/brake pedals. I didn't have time for major improvements yet, but this info will help a lot later on. Note that I'm less interested in the values itself, but what axis (LeftX, LeftY, RightX and RightY) are linked to what controls.
This is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
Check the ini file. It has an option to enable/disable the steeringwheel debug info and a setting to configure the directInput device ID. 1-4 are probably reserved to the 360 controllers, the API documentation mentions 5-8 being reserved for directInput devices.
Also I think I found an oddball bug. It seems like the view button doesn't work the first time unless you let off the gas. I'm using a 360 controller and every time I have to stop initially to change views. After that it works fine.
This should also be fixed, along with better support for the 360 controller while driving the game.
If any of you want to be so kind and test this with a steering wheel, it would be much appreciated!
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I've made a quick update especialy intended for people with driving controls. Since I don't have a steeringwheel controller I'll have to do some testing and rely on your input.
So this update has some debug info for me displayed below the framerate counter. I'd like to learn what values change if you turn the wheel and hit the acellerator/brake pedals. I didn't have time for major improvements yet, but this info will help a lot later on. Note that I'm less interested in the values itself, but what axis (LeftX, LeftY, RightX and RightY) are linked to what controls.
This is the link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
Check the ini file. It has an option to enable/disable the steeringwheel debug info and a setting to configure the directInput device ID. 1-4 are probably reserved to the 360 controllers, the API documentation mentions 5-8 being reserved for directInput devices.
If any of you want to be so kind and test this with a steering wheel, it would be much appreciated!
First off great work, the video looks great. :applaud: Luv the golden age racers.
I just DL this & hooked up a Thrustmaster F430 FFB wheel.
It recognized it. I had to put the pedals in combined mode, for both to work. In separate mode, just the brakes worked.
The steering is on the LX axis, both left & right.
The pedals are on the LY axis, gas and brake.
Now, I could not get the start mapped or the gears. I tried to edit the ini file, nothing. So I was not able to get it started/race even thou I could see the wheel & pedals values moving it the window.
Hope this helps.
edit=sp
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First off great work, the video looks great. :applaud: Luv the golden age racers.
I just DL this & hooked up a Thrustmaster F430 FFB wheel.
It recognized it. I had to put the pedals in combined mode, for both to work. In separate mode, just the brakes worked.
The steering is on the LX axis, both left & right.
The pedals are on the LY axis, gas and brake.
Now, I could not get the start mapped or the gears. I tried to edit the ini file, nothing. So I was not able to get it started/race even thou I could see the wheel & pedals values moving it the window.
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the info. I haven't hooked up the steering wheel controls at all (you can play the game via keyboard or a Xbox360 controller). Because I wasn't certain what device and which axis are used on a steeringwheel, I needed to figure that out first :-) Probably somewhere next week when I have time to program, I'll implement the steeringwheel controls for testing the race segment.
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It's not universal, so you can't just hook it up. You'll have to allow the user to reconfigure.
The wheel is always the x axis, but as for the pedals and shifter... well. Sometimes the pedals are combined on the Y axis, sometimes they are split over y and z. Sometimes there is a clutch and the pedals are on rx, ry, and rz. Some of the more complex setups have the pedals show up as a whole different device, ect. That doesn't even bring the shifter, which is sometimes analog, into the equation.
What you've got are good default values, but I'm just saying... a steering wheel is a non-standard device, so mapping isn't universal.
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It's not universal, so you can't just hook it up. You'll have to allow the user to reconfigure.
The wheel is always the x axis, but as for the pedals and shifter... well. Sometimes the pedals are combined on the Y axis, sometimes they are split over y and z. Sometimes there is a shifter and the pedals are on rx, ry, and rz. Some of the more complex setups have the pedals show up as a whole different device, ect. That doesn't even bring the shifter, which is sometimes analog, into the equation.
What you've got are good default values, but I'm just saying... a steering wheel is a non-standard device, so mapping isn't universal.
Sounds like a small nightmare ... :dizzy: I'll see what I can do... Thanks for the headsup.
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Not the best solution, but for now people can probably use x360ce to emulate the xbox360 controller.
Any configuring can be done in the x360ce app.
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It's not universal, so you can't just hook it up. You'll have to allow the user to reconfigure.
The wheel is always the x axis, but as for the pedals and shifter... well. Sometimes the pedals are combined on the Y axis, sometimes they are split over y and z. Sometimes there is a shifter and the pedals are on rx, ry, and rz. Some of the more complex setups have the pedals show up as a whole different device, ect. That doesn't even bring the shifter, which is sometimes analog, into the equation.
What you've got are good default values, but I'm just saying... a steering wheel is a non-standard device, so mapping isn't universal.
Sounds like a small nightmare ... :dizzy: I'll see what I can do... Thanks for the headsup.
It is. People wonder why I haven't released any of my Outrun 2k6 hacks yet.... the main reason is input configuration. There are similar issues with mamehooker as well, only on the force-feedback end of things. ;)
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I've made an update. It should support the steering wheel for steering/accelerate/brake - I haven't mapped any buttons yet. Also for a steeringwheel I should implement some calibration settings later. The accelerate pedal should also function as a 'start' or 'confirm' action. You can pick music/tracks using the wheel too.
Further, I did some minor improvements and started to work on gamemodes (not yet visible in this build- mostly 'stuff under the hood'). I also added a title sequence ;D
Get the latest build here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
Preview of the title sequence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0OyHSuDoJ4# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0OyHSuDoJ4#)
There are a lot of things on my "to-do" list, that aren't yet implemented - but still idea's and suggestions are welcomed.
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A new version is available here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
This version has the basic game with 3 areas with 2 tracks per area. The tracks are experimental; it takes a lot of time to create tracks that are both fun and challenging... so tracks are very much subject to change. Still not sure how to tackle this so testing and ideas are welcomed! Laptimes are about ~45 seconds so I now add 45 seconds per checkpoint.
What is new?
- Title sequence, with highscores and laptimes
- At the end of the race a "enter your name" screen. Use the key you configured for the 'carhorn' to enter letters.
- Better support for xbox360 controls
- Better support for a steeringwheel (can someone test this?)
- Tracks are loaded in one continous loop with transitions between areas.
What is planned (short term- stuff I want to get in first so the game is playable):
- More player car animations.
- Car crash animation (outrun style flip, smaller animation when just bumping into another car or scenary at low speed).
- Start and Finish animations
- Laptime mode (race a specific track for 3 laps for best time).
- Traffic graphics (generic cars, trucks to populate the roads).
- Better traffic behaviour of opponents (this version they're just "drones").
- More scenary: rockside walls, tunnels, etc.
- Interactive trackside objects (traffic-cones bumping out of the way, tumbleweed, stuff like that).
- More soundeffects (interface bleeps, amosphere sounds).
Long term plans:
- Car upgrades (much like in Turbo Outrun, after 3 areas completed or something).
- Car selection (pick your ride from a selection of cars)
- Opponent AI to race against in laptime mode.
- Policecars chasing you/setting up roadblocks
- Custom music selection (put your own music in the game)
- Track gimmics- for example a speeding train
- Local multiplayer
- Global highscores
- Improved trackeditor and ability to race those custom tracks separate from the main game.
- Mamehooker support
Looking forward to hear comments/suggestions!
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Everything seems to work really well. It feels like a actual game now.
I've got a question/suggestion. Are cliffs and walls possible?
The reason I ask is around here (and most of Appalachia) we have a lot of twisty two lane roads that snake around the mountains. The area for the roads are basically cut into the side of the mountain, so you've got a rock wall on one side and a cliff on the other. I've never really seen that done in a racing game, at least not a whole stage and it seems like it would make a good final track.... if you go off the road you either run into a wall or fall off a cliff... either way you are screwed.
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I'm actually working on wall graphics now. Cliff is something I want to do, I'll have to think what changes the drawing sequence need for that (I know Outrunners simply draws only one side of the road- but it makes the road look like a floating ribbon).
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I think you'd have to do it like a wall but up-side down if that makes any sense. Draw a buttload of slope graphics one after another right at the edge of the road, similar to how outrun does those arch walls on that one stage, only draw them before you render the road so they would be underneath looking like the road is supported by them.
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I think you'd have to do it like a wall but up-side down if that makes any sense. Draw a buttload of slope graphics one after another right at the edge of the road, similar to how outrun does those arch walls on that one stage,
In my prototype I did exactly that; but for a more convincing effect the sprites need to be stretched all the way down (otherwise the rocks and the road 'float' in the far distance) much like how the sea and tulip fields are stretched horizontally. I also need to draw a rockface when the road becomes back 'normal' again (bad ascii art incoming!):
XX| |XX <- full road
--+ +-- <- rock face
| |XX <-- cliff
| |XX <- cliff
--+ +-- <- rock face (invisible because we approach from the section below)
XX| |XX <--full road
only draw them before you render the road so they would be underneath looking like the road is supported by them.
Yeah, at the moment I draw the road first, front to back so I can calculate the top of the hills for cutting off sprites. This is the part I need to rethink; probably do a "dry run" of the road graphic without actually drawing it; then draw the sprites that go underneath the road, then draw the road using the data from the dry run.
The reason I don't draw sprites and road per section is that the road is acutally filled vertices and switching between shaders (road<->sprites) messes up the spritebatches the GPU likes so much. So I want to draw the sprites in one big batch and all vertices in another batch.
But again it is a really nice effect so I'm probably going to refactor some of my road-drawing code :-)
It also would make interesting scenary: tunnels, overhanging rocks stuff like that.
This is a test I did earlier with the "wall" graphics:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_uo7nN-dKQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_uo7nN-dKQ)
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any force feedback planned for future?
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any force feedback planned for future?
I have it on my list- but I don't have a forcefeedback device myself so it's a bit lower on the priority list.
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I'm starting to get the hang of FF finally. If you have the capacity to read them via XNA (it's not hard, I can show you how in DX at least) effect files are the way to go. Then if users don't like the effect or want to change a bunch of stuff they can supply their own.
Most of it could be handled via mamehooker, but in all honesty FF is better handled at the game level if at all possible just to ease the complexity of the user's setup. We do it that way with emulators because emulator devs are all gung ho about cross-platform portability and FF is almost exclusively a windows thing.
Your video is set to private, so we can't see it. ;)
From your description though it sounds like Microsoft still doesn't get that we'd like to draw 2d and 3d stuff interchangeably.... been struggling with that issue since dx8.
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I'm starting to get the hang of FF finally. If you have the capacity to read them via XNA (it's not hard, I can show you how in DX at least) effect files are the way to go. Then if users don't like the effect or want to change a bunch of stuff they can supply their own.
Most of it could be handled via mamehooker, but in all honesty FF is better handled at the game level if at all possible just to ease the complexity of the user's setup. We do it that way with emulators because emulator devs are all gung ho about cross-platform portability and FF is almost exclusively a windows thing.
Once I get to the FFB, I'll definetly contact you for the inside info :-)
Your video is set to private, so we can't see it. ;)
Oops. Fixed that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_uo7nN-dKQ# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_uo7nN-dKQ#)
From your description though it sounds like Microsoft still doesn't get that we'd like to draw 2d and 3d stuff interchangeably.... been struggling with that issue since dx8.
Yeah, I need to switch between shaders and vertices- the way it is set up now, I can do all sprites in one batch. I also generate spritesheets at the start of the level to keep all sprites in one bit of texture memory. I reach up to 1500 frames per second unthrottled - if I draw vertices and sprites mixed, it can add up to 300 spritebatches and the framerate drops down to 30-40 frames. Quite a performance hit (the rest of the calculations is the same so it's all down to the GPU there).
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That looks really good man. I think I would just about make the bottom of the cliff wall angled to match the typical perspective of the road... then it wouldn't look so separated when you slow down.
Yeah I know direct-X at least has always had an issue with that. Pre-transformed vertices are the things you are supposed to use for displaying a gui over a 3d render, but depending upon the render order and your 3d world setup it'll kill your framerate dramatically and screw up any texture buffer you have in place.
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@Felsir" your work is awesome I wish you would be at the head of "The 90's Arcade Racer", hopefully when I finish with this note for the future (this is the forum to create the perfect arcade racer).
much luck in this "The 80's Racer" :notworthy: :cheers:
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I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier. I was incorrect on a few points as well. I was a bit fired up because of the recent Butchery of Strider. One of many horrific remakes, from people whom dont have any artistic skills.
Turns out Outrun has a lot of noon shading, because shadows were easier to do in this manor. However, I still think it looks far better to have a diagonal light source.
About bridges / cliffs... I think you just have to draw it similar to Afterburner... where you are drawing large blocks of graphics layered on top of each other.
In a Marble Madness remake that I helped work on.. the programmer made it so the game would load:
a) Top tile At position x,y
b) wall tile line from x,y to x,y
c) Bottom tile At position x,y
d) Shadow tiles & Wall artwork tiles.. could also be positioned over the top of the wall tiles.
e) The field was drawn from rear to front, layer after layer... with the marble (and other baddies/stuff) being placed in the appropriate depth & positions.. before drawing the rest of the tiles. After this.. I think he only updated an area around the things that moved... so as to gain performance.
While you probably dont have to approach quite the same level of complexity of MM.. by adding actual large size sprites - such as chunks of rock.. or large tile pillars.. you can probably create a very good effect. Especially with good shading and a few textural tile shifts. The game will need actual 3d coordinates for this however, which is actually a cool and good thing.. because it can create over and under passes, as well as draw things more realistically.
You could also do some similar cheats, and only draw the areas that are visible. If the road is covering them, no need to update them.
Also, rather than draw an entire horizontal plane.. as often is the case.. some areas might only draw narrow chunks, and or erase areas.. use a mask? and or draw using an 'eraser'... effectively zeroing out parts of the drawn area.
Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates.. is easier stereoscopic 3d support :)
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I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier.
Apology accepted; as we dutch say "Zand erover" (I think the english version is "water under the bridge."?)
The major difference between Marble Madness and a race game is, that MM has for the most part a static backdrop (except for a few moving parts in the scenary) thus the marbles and enemies are basically the only objects that change. A masking strategy works in that context so there is no need to redraw the entire scene.
In the racegame on the other hand, -unless the car is not driving- every object moves. Keeping track of the masking areas is more costly than redrawing the scene since every sprite has to be redrawn anyway.
In a modern remake of MM one would draw the entire scene as you described first to a separate texture layer and have the GPU overlay the sprites at every redraw- which is the most efficient way of doing it.
Thus the "Afterburner" technique is indeed the technique I use for the driving game.
Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates.. is easier stereoscopic 3d support :)
For stereoscopic 3D, I can simply draw the road twice with each section of the road an additional shift horizontal left or right depending on the distance. It is the same technique used in the Anaglyp mode of Rad Racer. For full head-tracking VR stereoscopic... well that's more for the 90s racer project ;D
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90s? Ehh... I prefer the 80s! :) Even if it looks sort of Paper 3d.. the effect of a 2d style game in 3d is actually quite awesome. Jaw dropping actually. I was fortunate enough to see and play Continental Circus 3D with the glasses still working... and It blew my mind. Smoke, car parts, tires, spoilers... were flying out of the screen almost every moment. And the depth... really made the game so much more fun and interesting visually. You can press f2 in mame to get 3d mode. I turned on my old sega master system, with the 3d glasses & 3d game in... and looked at my pc monitor. The sync isnt right... so the 3d flips around a lot... but its still worth it. So breathtaking.
Ok, so what I was tying to say before... is that your cars scale does not match the road lines. Once you change view.. you will have to increase the size of the car to fit the road better. OR.. you will have to move it inwards... which isnt as nice. OR... you would have to change the drawing formula, for the perspective angles of the road. Simply drawing more of less lines does not really work properly... to account for the viewpoint change.
In your current version, top right.. you can fit 3 Lambos in one single lane. A lane should only barely fit One car.
In my play, I drew the top left, to show a more proper scale. Bottom right, I was playing with colors and a cliff concept.. high in the cloudy icy blue mountains. Of course, I got the scale wrong on that one. heh. Which should be at least 2 cars width.. maybe a little shoulder too. Would be interesting to see 2 way traffic as well.
Note the use of high contrast. Very bright and saturated colors, with very dark shadows. This is typical-bright day style of lighting. On more over-cast / couldy days... colors are less saturated, and less drastic contrast from light to shadows.
As always, a fade to a more gray / blue hue, with reduced saturation in colors, the further things are into the screen.
Sharper details close up, but more and more blur + less detail, as things are further away.. and or past the cameras focus point. Which make a nice deep visual effect.
Ive not been able to play the game yet, cause the PC needs repair... and laptop isnt powerful enough. But dont get too hung up on graphics yet, as they can be redrawn later. Get all the features, like intense traffic areas.. long Semi Trailers.. etc.
I think the Afterburner style would work well for things like bridges and cliffs. Maybe use much larger images, or large images towers put together and then moved... that are located right under the main road.
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I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier.
Apology accepted; as we dutch say "Zand erover" (I think the english version is "water under the bridge."?)
The major difference between Marble Madness and a race game is, that MM has for the most part a static backdrop (except for a few moving parts in the scenary) thus the marbles and enemies are basically the only objects that change. A masking strategy works in that context so there is no need to redraw the entire scene.
In the racegame on the other hand, -unless the car is not driving- every object moves. Keeping track of the masking areas is more costly than redrawing the scene since every sprite has to be redrawn anyway.
In a modern remake of MM one would draw the entire scene as you described first to a separate texture layer and have the GPU overlay the sprites at every redraw- which is the most efficient way of doing it.
Thus the "Afterburner" technique is indeed the technique I use for the driving game.
Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates.. is easier stereoscopic 3d support :)
For stereoscopic 3D, I can simply draw the road twice with each section of the road an additional shift horizontal left or right depending on the distance. It is the same technique used in the Anaglyp mode of Rad Racer. For full head-tracking VR stereoscopic... well that's more for the 90s racer project ;D
How about a perfectly square set of repeating tiles? I would think that just a repeating pattern all the way down to the bottom of the screen would do. You could also try a "fog of war" technique. Make the "canyon" next to the cliff either white and full of fog or dark in the shadows and blend the cliff segments that way. Although I'm not sure if you are using a simple color key or a full on alpha channel, so I don't know how well that'd work. Pumping out that many textures has to take it's toll when you start doing fancy stuff like a full on alpha blending, so just some suggestions.
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I had a 2 hour commute for work today; the train was comfortable enough to do some coding so I refactored the drawing code. I only had ms-paint on my laptop so don't mind the crude graphics; those are just placeholders for now (those are stretchings and scaling some old test graphics anyway). Anyway, this is the result so far:
http://youtu.be/7MYQMRg0Hts (http://youtu.be/7MYQMRg0Hts)
It still needs work, some graphical glitches occur but the basic code to have objects underneath the road- and fill the gap underneath the ground-plane functions. I did some optimizations so it runs smoothly (the occasional FPS dip on the video is due to the capture software).
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I don't see anything wrong with that. Looks good to me. Honestly I think the blending turned out more convincing than solid graphics would have anyway.
I've got another question/ suggestion. Are we going to see a background plate for these stages? I think turbo outrun and a few other games had em. Basically in front of your sky graphic you might have a cityscape or some mountains or what have you that kind of floated over the ground plane. To keep them from looking static they would move a little bit depending upon how the road turned. The trick of course would be how to handle transitions.
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I have coded 3 parallax layers for the background; I just don't have decent graphics to show for those yet. As you mentioned, I'm not yet certain about transitions. I've seen different methods varying from a slide below the horizon and after that popping back up with a new graphic or have a long curve sliding the background graphic out of the way. Something to think about ...
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Yeah. I know from my 2k6 hacking that how it's done in that game is sort of like the first way you said. Basically all the background plates are stretched into their full-upright position when entering the course and are squashed back down when you leave.... sort of like a pop-up book. The "exit ramp" with the giant curve and the wall for the stage transitions is also quite intentional.... while you are taking that curve it transitions the sky and gets the next set pieces ready. I've seen hills used for that as well. You climb a big hill right before the goal and the backdrop falls below it, revealing the generic transition graphics once things level out.
You know I've got an idea, but I don't know if it would be over-stepping my bounds or if it would even go well with the project. It isn't something I advertise around here, but I'm a fairly decent landscape painter. I haven't done it in a few years, but recently I've been meaning to get back into it. Bought some new kit last year, haven't even cracked it open. I'm wondering how backgrounds painted on canvas would look. It would be tricky with the sprites, I would probably have to prep the canvas with magenta or something but it should be doable. Maybe not the best idea for the whole game, but for a bonus stage or something it might look pretty good.
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The effect is pretty cool, but the fog seems a little much. Personally, I like sprite effects, so Im curious to know if it would be even better to do an enhanced Power Drift style of implementation... ?
One thing that would be great, are things like seeing a bridge sweeping off to the distant left.. and or some giant mountain style sprites that scale up, that you end up going around. (and through, using a dark tunnel effect)
Id also like to see a floor graphic, so for example, when you get near the cliff edge, you can see a fuzzy high altitude landscape.. or a giant lake / ocean.
Also, for graphical walls / cliffs.. it might be nice to make them a bit larger, and use varying sloping slant angles. As if these are too 'vertical' in nature.. they dont look like real cliff faces. If using larger sprites is too much... you might instead use a few different smaller sprites ,on that same line, to make up those larger sloped angular shapes.
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Howard_Casto, sounds like a good idea (especially if that gets you back to painting!) we'll see how that painting fits in the game. I'll still thinking what the best way to handle the transition, I'll tinker with that a bit.
Xiaou2, the fog effect is one that I can control from 0% fog to zero visibility. Note that the video was a proof of concept and the cliff/rock graphics were thrown together. So the final graphics will probaby be more sloped and more varied than shown here.
I have been thinking of a Power Drift remake (don't think I have ever seen a PD remake?) however the underlying technique is entirely different from the pseudo3D employed here, so that may be for another time.
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Howard_Casto, sounds like a good idea (especially if that gets you back to painting!) we'll see how that painting fits in the game. I'll still thinking what the best way to handle the transition, I'll tinker with that a bit.
Xiaou2, the fog effect is one that I can control from 0% fog to zero visibility. Note that the video was a proof of concept and the cliff/rock graphics were thrown together. So the final graphics will probaby be more sloped and more varied than shown here.
I have been thinking of a Power Drift remake (don't think I have ever seen a PD remake?) however the underlying technique is entirely different from the pseudo3D employed here, so that may be for another time.
I thought about this more...
When the rock wall comes into view... the one thing you notice right away, is that there is no mountain attached to it. Its like a series of random pillars, rather than a mountain ledge.
In order to take that away, you could use a horizontal drawing trick similar to the MM vertical drawing trick I showed earlier. Where on each line drawn, you can specify a Beginning, middle1 (possibly a few varied middle parts), and an End.
Ex:
A,B,Z
A,BBBBBBBBBB,Z
A,BCDBCD,Z
A,CBCDEDCBCECBCDC,Z
For short rows, such as details in flowers..etc.. you could make user-designed sections. But for things like a mountain wall... you could specify a pattern type.. and it will just scale that pattern from small in the distance, and it will grow and expand that pattern until its large enough to fill the visible screen width. Once its fully expanded... it will draw that same pattern on the visible screen.. but, it will put the user defined end tiles on the section you have specified... (it will also drop the beginning "A" tile, and the ending "Z" tiles, because they are no longer needed / in view... until you specify things are going to close up again)
Hmm, a more visual example:
(Note, this is Only ONE line scrolling down the screen. Next lines drawn would vary the H value, so that the cliff edges
are different)
[ AZ ]
[ AH HZ ]
[ AcdeH HedcZ ]
[ AcdefcdeH HedcfedcZ ]
[AcdefcdefcdeH HedcfeZ]
[cdefcdH He]
Note that after the A tile (slope inward) and Z tile (slope outward) are off the screen.. they are no longer used or
needed to complete the mountain scaling illusion. You could do the reverse to end the mountain area, but you would use a different tile than the starting A & Z tiles you originally used.
So, as the line gets further down the screen, it expands the middle patten. Once the pattern fully expands to fill the
whole line.. it then no longer draws the beginning & End (A and Z).
Each line drawn behind this line, will can have its own start and end tiles, to make the various shapes of the mountain sides. Each line will use the same expanding pattern format.
Eh, I think I explained it good enough. Let me know what you think.
Edit:
Noticed that in practice, you may want middle tiles to be different, instead of a direct left to right mirror. So it
instead be:
A pattern H J pattern Z
Where H is the middle left side, and J is the middle right side cliff face.
This same pattern tech, could also be used for the underside of the road, for things like bridges and rock detail.
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Probably the cheapest and easiest way to fix something like that is to introduce the side of the cliff when you go into a sharp curve. If you do that then you'll never see the other side of the cliff.
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Thats not the point. The point IS being able to see it, and appreciate it.
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I have coded 3 parallax layers for the background; I just don't have decent graphics to show for those yet. As you mentioned, I'm not yet certain about transitions. I've seen different methods varying from a slide below the horizon and after that popping back up with a new graphic or have a long curve sliding the background graphic out of the way. Something to think about ...
Maybe you could use a tunnel for transitions?
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... Where on each line drawn, you can specify a Beginning, middle1 (possibly a few varied middle parts), and an End ...
I (think) understand what you're saying Xiaou2, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You want to add detail or additional sprites as the mountain comes closer, right? Here is why it doesn't quite work like that with sprites: because the sprites are gradually scaled towards the player it will be quite obvious that new sprites "pop up" between the other sprites- the distance in the pseudo3D racegame isn't "distant" enough to gradually add sprites inbetween. It would work with 3D meshes (in fact: it's actually used a lot in that field) where detail is added; the trick is that the mesh is improved once the detail is big enough to be visible.
Probably the cheapest and easiest way to fix something like that is to introduce the side of the cliff when you go into a sharp curve. If you do that then you'll never see the other side of the cliff.
Yeah, I'll probably used a stretched sprite technique (as used in the tulip fields) and obscure the emptyness by a curve and some strategic place trees.
Maybe you could use a tunnel for transitions?
That's also an option!
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Not sure if it would be as bad as you think, with the other layers behind it.. plus the texture effect and speed.. but I know what you mean. If we applied a sliding expansion, such as the other sprites are behind.. then you avoid the instant pop up.. which if Im not mistaken, is essentially what a mesh kind of does automatically.
Also, note that the original Out Run game uses several sprites for a single image, when scaling. The scaling detail would never be good enough on a low-res screen, to scale from small to large.. so they had to redraw the images at various points, to make the details look more appropriate at those distances.
When looking at a game like Outrunners.. one thing that kind of ruins the game, is that the graphics are a bit too clean. You see, with the original Outrun, there were limits on details, as well as more distortions.. and the monitor was smaller, with most likely a larger dot pitch... thus the shadow mask cause even more distortions. This helped to create texture in sprites and backgrounds, and simulated a more natural shading effect.. as well as Hid a lot of graphical issues, such as scaling details, jagged edges, etc.
With Outrunners, these things jump out at you. The longer field of road, and the lack of texture and shading.. means a more photographic look.. but without the shading to match it.. it looks flat and unrealistic. About 10x more unrealistic than the original. Add to that the cartoon like cars.. and the cartoon like reaction of the cars (riding on two wheels.. sliding at 45 degrees on every turn.. even though skidding via loss of grip isnt supposed to be a full on power-slide.. )
and you have a clash of graphics, and clash of concepts. IE: Original outrun is meant to represent realism... where as Outrunners cant make up its mind... and tries to mix realistic captures, with cartoony graphics...
I think its very possible to make a non cartoony sprite racing game, with enhanced graphics.. but a lot more details have to be artistically worked out. Its never going to be 100% realistic.. but thats the Charm of a sprite racer. Its scaling look and un-natural speed, make it more fun and artistically interpretive.
In many ways, the Original Outrun has outlasted many of the 3d modeled games.. not just because of the higher difficulty challenge.. and speed.. but because its interpretive look holds up better than low polygon counts, poor shading (low number of rays), and other graphical errors associated with poorly done 3d modeled technology.
This is why something like an Oil painting cant be Out-Dated. It is what it is. There is no resolution. There no need for perfection. And its why oil paintings done well, are far more valued than mere photographs. Most especially, if the artist has a very unique way of expression in his painting.
I feel this is very relative, because your version is much more hi-res.. and can have the same kinds of issues of Outrunners.. if certain steps are not put in place. Such as the noise filter, shading on hills, color shift and bluring in distant images...etc.
Anyways, I hope to see you try something like a scaling mountain, as well as curving bridge. See how well it can be done.
Im also wondering if instead of scaling in parts.. simply draw the mountain in a psudo-3d.. such as using 1 small image in front, then two or three images next, then maybe 8 behind that.. until its the full length and size. Again, not completely realistic.. but interesting, and probably would do the trick well enough to be fun and convincing, especially for an 80s racer level of technological capability. (if cost were no option back then)
:)
Edit: Found this on the net. Notice, not just horizontal lines, but vetical as well.. which help make the texture. Distant images are much more effected by these distortions, helping out the lack of shading and details. Also, note that lines are smoother, like road lines.. as well as colors are more blended. This was further enhanced, as the arcade monitors tended to get slightly out of focus.. as well as blurry from dust on the screen, trapped behind the monitor glass. Ive often wondered if some Devs actually glued the monitor focus to be slightly blurry on purpose, at the factory, to help smooth the images. Also note, that this is probably a replacement monitor. While the resolution is the same on the newwer models.. the dot pitch often was higher.. and so the shadowmask lines were thinner.. making a more clearner picture with less distortion than may have originally shipped out with.
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Inspire heh
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9WWl4g8h4xg/TymxYs-6MKI/AAAAAAAAHbM/Yo0_yFUGVaU/s1600/3+cliff+road.jpg)
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Some interesting stuff here:
http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=99346 (http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=99346)
Cool 'bank' drawing shown. Some other psudo 3d stuff too.. though, Id rather not see a Loop in outrun heh
(http://www.upl.co/uploads/road25.jpg)
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Well done Felsir! :applaud: This game looks amazing. Congratulations on having a go at this by yourself. Makes me wish I had a driving cab. Once you are done I think you'll need to build a full cabinet for this with matching artwork!
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Well done Felsir! :applaud: This game looks amazing. Congratulations on having a go at this by yourself. Makes me wish I had a driving cab. Once you are done I think you'll need to build a full cabinet for this with matching artwork!
Thanks Stuzza. Unfortunately I have no room for a driving cab (I had plans for a 10mx15m basement, but unfortunately the local building regulations didn't allow it -so I had to give up my arcade/homecinema dream).
Made some progress- most of it not visible so no new build yet.
Me and my brother took some photographs of my scalemodel Lamborghini as base for the car crashing animations, so I plan to have them in soon as well:
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I'm loving this! Didn't think much of it when I first tuned in, but as I followed the posts, its gotten better & better. You're doing something I've wanted to see for a long time--taken an 80's game & used modern computing power to add a lot more to it, without losing the 80ness of it. I've always wished someone would do this, esp. with Battlezone. There was a running myth in my home town that if u kept heading for the volcano, you'd eventually get somewhere...different...was always kinda vague on just where :dunno. I finally cracked a million points on that beautiful game, &, of course, never found anything.
I'll definitely want a copy of this when its done. Keep up the great work! :applaud:
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Felsir, if you can send me some of the original car sprites I can start working on the rest of them. my username at gmail
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Cool.
But please also include vertical perspective changes.
In Outrun, there are levels where when going up hill.. the camera is in a different position, and you see move of a top view of the car.
Often in the game, you will notice small vertical angle changes on hills as well.
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I think using the model as a guide is a good idea. Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?
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Good models with good photography and lighting, can often produce better results than 3d modeling... partially because 3d modeling isnt always raytraced for 20 hrs per frame... and or depending on polygon counts, and modelers abilities. Textures, as well as real world color depths. 3d models often tend to look too clean, as a result.
Two problems exists however...
1) You could spend hours of efforts to create graphics for a game.. and find out it wasnt worth it, because the gameplay never lived up to the expectations. The programmer might often never finish it, and or may not have the ability to make it play well.
Sadly, Id learned this the hard way, spending 3 yrs on a project that never would be completed.. and never was playable. Always promised that it would be "Fixed" later.. and when demanded game control to be fixed... programmer couldnt do it.
On another venture.. Id given another programmer some ideas on his existing game, but realized that he wasnt up to the task. He kept switching to doing a different game every time things got too challenging for him.. after 3rd game attempt, I jumped ship.
IMO, its better to rough out the graphics, and get the game play and features down pat. Then, there will be no shortage of artists willing to re-draw the graphics.
2) Lighting
When making sprites for a game like this, the lighting has to be exactly the same. If you put the light in a different spot, intensity, and or angle.. than the other persons models.. then the shading will not match the others.. and so each model will look out of place.
You also have issues with contrast and shading. Your can may have a very high contrast with super light brights... and very dark-darks.. where as others might shade with a more limited spectrum of mild highs, and medium darks. And then you have color intensity as well.. such as a bright lime green - vs - a pale green. Color intensities can create a very different look... so if your car is very intense in color value... but all the other graphics are more mute (such as on a cloudy day), then the car will look out of place.
Its best if the artists are very adept at color and shading knowledge.. because thats the only chance that things will match up. Otherwise, its better if one so-so artists, does his own full-game graphics in completion. Or one Stellar artist, to do the full thing.
edit:
3) Model Accuracy
Looking at the model presented.. it appears the bottom may not be correct. A lot of models are like that... because they do not figure you will care about the bottom much... being that its not visible. You may want to see if you can get a more detailed model, or a 3d model thats accurate, and map the details onto the pictures. And or use other photos, manuals, etc.. to get the needed information.
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I think using the model as a guide is a good idea.
Yeah, it works pretty good. It also enables me to work on the ingame effect using these als placeholders until the final art is there. I have the crash animations (flip, flat-spin, bump) working. It's a matter of getting the final sprites in before I release an update.
Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?
That would be great :-) Looking forward to what Malenko is brewing...
Looking at the model presented.. it appears the bottom may not be correct.
What you see is the cover for the battery pack is missing. It kept falling out during photography (the locking mechanism is broken). It will be fixed in the sprite-creation-process. On the other hand: just don't crash your car in the game and you won't notice ;-)
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I think using the model as a guide is a good idea. Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?
(http://thumbs1.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mocZn6oVxMoDymfzr-yOCgQ.jpg)
Seriously! What scale? Which angles?
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Seriously! What scale? Which angles?
This post has the countach base file attached to it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502)
A few posts above this one you can see the flip animation frames, that I currently use as a reference.
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Seriously! What scale? Which angles?
This post has the countach base file attached to it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502 (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502)
A few posts above this one you can see the flip animation frames, that I currently use as a reference.
right-o. If this was to become a thing that could be done, how specific would we have to be for the angles? Or would the same general angles as viewed in your post be sufficient?
Call me crazy, but is there any way to use a pictures from a 3d model to incorporate into the game? Wow...that could be cool.
I'm glad to see this is progressing. I hope to play it one day. Have you considered mocking up some sideart and marquee for this?
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dunno what I did, but I downloaded the game to my work PC, and I dont see a track editor.
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dunno what I did, but I downloaded the game to my work PC, and I dont see a track editor.
Yeah, I removed the track editor from the package, I had the "cliff" code working but not yet in the editor so it saved incorrectly formatted levels.
Also the structure of the levels has changed. Next version will have an updated track editor (if you made a level, hold on to it: the new editor should still load it).
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right-o. If this was to become a thing that could be done, how specific would we have to be for the angles? Or would the same general angles as viewed in your post be sufficient?
Call me crazy, but is there any way to use a pictures from a 3d model to incorporate into the game? Wow...that could be cool.
I'm glad to see this is progressing. I hope to play it one day. Have you considered mocking up some sideart and marquee for this?
The angles correspond roughly to the perspective of the road (assuming you mean the angle of perspective?) if you mean the angle of the rotation of the model while steering; the same general angle will do.
I might make a vector version of the logo for use on marquee and sideart (well, in my early years on BYOAC I did custom sideart anyway, I even created a vector car (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,21752.msg201212.html#msg201212)...)
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I've never really seen that done in a racing game, at least not a whole stage and it seems like it would make a good final track.... if you go off the road you either run into a wall or fall off a cliff... either way you are screwed.
The original Test Drive (circa 1987) did this. It was pretty unforgiving as I remember it, since there was no shoulder on either side and only one lane in each direction. With the narrow road and the wall to your right, pretty much every curve was a blind one.
OP, kudos on the game thus far. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.
Endaar
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Man why is it we all decide to work on our cool stuff at once? I want to work on this, I want to work on 2k6, I want to build a model and scan it. Can someone invent a 48 hour day?
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Can someone invent a 48 hour day?
Yes please!
Got some better rock graphics in. I don't have capture software on my laptop so I made a quick video with my mobile phone.
80s racer cliff test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYqq5qGveg#)
The video also shows the spin/flip/fall animation with the placeholders (the flip is a bit exaggerated- mainly for testing).
The screenshots give a better idea of the graphics, but seeing it move is way better.
Graphics for this level that are in progress: tunnel, "warning falling rocks" sign and a guardrails.
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lookin good! Cant wait to get the new track editor so I can finish up my course and maybe start a new one :)
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Looking much nicer. :)
A minor gripe... but its annoying... can you fix the line dividers on the road? Where the car is, you currently can fit about 3 to 4 cars width from the diving line to the edge of the road. Its ruins the scale of things.
A little bit of shoulder is ok... and welcome, in some areas.
On the above picture... do not forget the shadows, as well as the texture under the rocks probably shouldnt be merely road. It should be something like a rock color at minimum (past the shoulder), and or some gravely surface.
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Can someone invent a 48 hour day?
Yes please!
Got some better rock graphics in. I don't have capture software on my laptop so I made a quick video with my mobile phone.
80s racer cliff test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvYqq5qGveg#)
The video also shows the spin/flip/fall animation with the placeholders (the flip is a bit exaggerated- mainly for testing).
The screenshots give a better idea of the graphics, but seeing it move is way better.
Graphics for this level that are in progress: tunnel, "warning falling rocks" sign and a guardrails.
Pure awesome sauce man.
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Pure awesome sauce man.
Thanks :-)
New video, captured instead of shot with mobile phone (set to 720p for best quality).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46-Mb2CMopw#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46-Mb2CMopw#ws)
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Cool.
Can we get a mad max level with a merciless mode that will extend the players time if we run a car other than our own off the side of the cliff?
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That looks amazing :applaud:
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I am slowly chipping away at the sprites, its a little more daunting then I thought it'd be. Ive locked down the palette so you be able to add selectable colors (or I can recolor them in photoshop).
Also in my infinite wisdom, I moved the file from my home PC to my work laptop, then deleted the XML from my work laptop, so I have to start from scratch. Good news is Im much better at the editor than before :p Can you email me the cow sprite, so I can make some other sprites based on it?
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Here you go: the cows.
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Looking much nicer. :)
A minor gripe... but its annoying... can you fix the line dividers on the road? Where the car is, you currently can fit about 3 to 4 cars width from the diving line to the edge of the road. Its ruins the scale of things.
A little bit of shoulder is ok... and welcome, in some areas.
On the above picture... do not forget the shadows, as well as the texture under the rocks probably shouldnt be merely road. It should be something like a rock color at minimum (past the shoulder), and or some gravely surface.
I agree with this. The car looks way too small because of the esta wide lanes. But, things are really looking amazing.
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I havent checked other racers, but it appears Outrun locks the road lines to the alternating color blocks. This actually make it look a bit better than keeping them separate. Part of it is the timing.. but also, the darker color road contrast helps bring out the lighter colored road lines better.
Also, they used dual alternating checker patterns on the Shoulder, to add to the speed effect. In certain stages, the shoulder colors and patterns are different. Interesting, as the Alps stage chose not to alternate the shoulder stripes. Maybe an error.. but also, maybe just an interesting change for difference sake. They also allow plants & flowers to overgrow the road shoulder a little bit on that stage.
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Observations:
I noticed that in Outrun.. Most of the times when you crash, the camera tends to slow down very quickly.. so you get to see your car wreck deep into the screen. The camera also stops panning and does not follow the car. This is better, because it feels like you get disconnected from the car, when the camera no longer follows it.
However, there was one video I saw of a guy who crashed in an odd way, against a cliff wall. I believe because he was blocked from going further into the screen, due to the rock in the way, the car bounced towards the screen.. scaled much bigger... as it rolled and then flew right over the camera, and out of view.
It seems Outruns car crashes simulate physics a bit. As the car rolls.. it has a certain momentum. As the car bounces and rolls.. it loses that momentum, so the roll-over spin gets slower.
The crashes are actually the best part of Outrun. It was one of the few racers, especially at that time... that didnt just blow the car up in some explosion graphic. It actually portrayed a realistic crash, the best way the hardware could produce.
I think it should even be taken a step further... making the crashes even more epic. Such as having door panels fly off at random.. A tire flying off and bouncing... Small parts and particles bursting out on collisions, Collisions where the car crashes and lands in different ways... such as landing on its hood, its side, and even possible end to end rolls.
Another effect that might be cool as an option to enable or disable, is to have the entire game screen shake or buck violently, depending on the action. When you hit walls.. you could shake the screen graphics left to right, or right to left a little.
Camera could also be used to zoom in or out, raise or lower the perspective horizon like, or other similar things, for crashes, bumps, and or to better simulate speed...
One idea I have, is that if you accelerate with full pedal down... the speed is so great that the camera gets lagged a little behind. This causes the car to scale smaller into the screen a bit.. before the camera slowly catches up, and the car is scaled back to its original position.
Similarly... if you slam on the brakes, the camera might sling ahead of the car a little.. so that the car gets scaled larger, and zoomed close... and the the camera backs up and or waits for the car to catch back up. Never getting to the point where the car is completly off screen... but just scaled past the main focus point. These would help to simulate violent speed reactions.
Also, because acceleration on certain cars is so fast... you have to be careful not to fully drop the pedal, else you accidentally smash into nearby cars or obstacles. Maybe even lose traction and start to fishtail with loss of some steering control - as well as loss of traction.
Spy Hunter and many other Sega driving games (like Turbo), are much the same. In Spy Hunter... f you go from full pedal in low gear, right into high gear... without lifting off the gas a bit... you go so much faster that you usually wreck every time. (smashing into cars, running off the road bends, and or hitting trees / stuff in the process)
SH also awards you greater points for keeping the throttle glued to the floor. This makes incentive to live in the danger zone... and often, you pay dearly for it.. but always have an awesome adrenalin rush, while doing it.
- Car Perspectives:
In Outrun, depending on which position the cars are, you can see more of the other cars sides. If the car is on your left... you can see more of its right side. If its on your right.. you see more of its right side. Your car mostly only makes very small changes, because its locked in the center area of the camera. However, anything to the sides, shows greater perspective changes. Also, if your car were to crash and go off past the center point of the camera, you would also see more of its sides. Similarly, hills where the camera and horizon line change.. also effect the cars.. in that you may see more of the top of the car, or the underside of it.
If you do not change the perspectives of the cars, the game will look too flat and fake.
- Sounds
It seemed your passing car sounds were somewhat delayed to the action of the screen... as well as all uniform in volume. Even in Outrun, when you approach a car.. its noise gets louder on the side closest to your car. As it passes you, it briefly sounds very loud, then fades away. This also all depends on what lane they are in too. As if the car is 5 lanes away from you... its not very audible. Yet if its nearly rubbing paint with you... its very loud and pronounced. It was very much a 3d audio experience... without overpowering the music. In fact, I think some of the sounds were intentionally reduced, to keep them from being over-bearing and annoying.
Crashes and explosion sounds should also pan in 3d sound-space too.
In Sega Turbo, and other racing games of that time... when you enter a tunnel.. the sound volume is raised, as well as sometimes a certain change is added.. such as a delay echo, reverb, chorus, sound / tone changes... etc. I think thats a great feature to add it.
In TX-1, theres 4 speakers. One in the front, one in the seats bottom, two in the rear. As such, it was one of the few racers to have true quadraphonic sound... in the 80s no less. It was also a 3 monitor game. Incredible, and fun.
Though, there were also other multichannel speaker racers & games back then... such as:
- Sega Turbo (3 speakers. Two front, and one 12" woofer that was pretty much dedicated to engine noise)
- Spy Hunter Sitdown (Speakers in front and rear of cabinet)
- Discs of Tron Environmental (Speakers in front and rear of cabinet)
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Regarding crashes:
I have made the code to support camera movement- I've experimented with it but so far it requires a ton of tweaking to get it "right". I also implemented a particle engine (I use it for the smoke when sliding or hitting the ground) so it's possible to have debris fly off the car. Right now the crash can go from one mode to another- a car that flips over will for example change the direction when it hits another piece of scenary and it will fall off a cliff if there is no ground to touchdown on. So the crash routines are a branching affair that keep in mind the track and scenary while crashing.
The Cannonball project made me appreciate the attention to detail that SEGA had in Outrun: http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/collision.html (http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/collision.html)
I implemented gamepad rumble; I'll look into a screen shake effect- that may be tied to that. Not sure (I'm generally not too fond of screenshakes) but it might add to the crash effect.
To simulate speed while accellerating it is cooler to adjust the field of view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_zoom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_zoom) ) I implemented the FOV distortion in my code (currently as a constant value) but I want to use the effect in the case a "turbo" button or something comes up as selectable upgrade.
There are many directions I can go with this, a lot of things take time to implement or require some research to implement correctly so bear with me.
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Regarding crashes:
I have made the code to support camera movement- I've experimented with it but so far it requires a ton of tweaking to get it "right". I also implemented a particle engine (I use it for the smoke when sliding or hitting the ground) so it's possible to have debris fly off the car. Right now the crash can go from one mode to another- a car that flips over will for example change the direction when it hits another piece of scenary and it will fall off a cliff if there is no ground to touchdown on. So the crash routines are a branching affair that keep in mind the track and scenary while crashing.
The Cannonball project made me appreciate the attention to detail that SEGA had in Outrun: http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/collision.html (http://reassembler.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/collision.html)
I implemented gamepad rumble; I'll look into a screen shake effect- that may be tied to that. Not sure (I'm generally not too fond of screenshakes) but it might add to the crash effect.
To simulate speed while accellerating it is cooler to adjust the field of view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_zoom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolly_zoom) ) I implemented the FOV distortion in my code (currently as a constant value) but I want to use the effect in the case a "turbo" button or something comes up as selectable upgrade.
There are many directions I can go with this, a lot of things take time to implement or require some research to implement correctly so bear with me.
Bearing. :) heh
Just making observations and putting out suggestions. Sometimes research is easier if a lot of people are looking into it. Just trying to be helpful... as well as give my opinions and ideas.
I do like Camera Focus tricks, but I think that should be sort of standard part of the games look. Meaning.. just like a Movie, the things that are not in focus are slightly blurry. Most especially the things behind the car. That adds a great amount of simulated depth to the look.
However, Im also curious to have the option to use an "Retro-Scale" mode ... to simulate the blocky distorted look seen in older Sega games like Outrun and Afterburner II.
Maybe even a combination option, that can combine the two as well.
As for Speed Burst.. Ive never really liked that "light speed" style of distortion. When you drive in a car, is never looks like that... and so visually, it feels and looks so fake.. so it ruins it, IMO.
I prefer subtle and tangible / realistic things. Not sure about the shake either.. but it can be interesting if pulled off well. Camera lag + sprite scale does work very well however, for representing fast acceleration and deceleration. Its also very realistic looking and feeling. Just like if you were filming a bike in front of you, that sped up quickly... you would be a little behind him before you caught up. And or almost hit him if he stopped immediately.. thus he is now zoomed in (er... scaled larger), very close and large.
Also, Im not always a fan of particle effects.. because often its not done well enough. What I would Rather see.. is actual small sprites being thrown around. Because with that... you don't have unrealistic small dots of all the same size and color. You get actual car parts, and or small random chunks, that very in shape, color, and size.. and they react with correct vector physics. Makes it so much more realistic and a real work of Kinetic art.. rather than a very unrealistic and poor looking 'hack job'.
For crash effects and smoke..etc.. I think a bit of study and or capture of real wreckage footage should be analyzed and attempted to be reproduced somewhat faithfully, in a semi realistic manor.
Its nice to see Cannonball / Outrun inspires you.. because it really is one of the best driving games. Beautiful, Artistic, Realistic within certain bounds, great music / compositions, and just as you have said.. a Lot of fine details. They really pushed the limits of the technology. Had so many talented artists. And was committed not only to merely making money... but making an unforgettable experience.
Looking forward to seeing more great progress,
Cheers.
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Also, Im not always a fan of particle effects.. because often its not done well enough. What I would Rather see.. is actual small sprites being thrown around. Because with that... you don't have unrealistic small dots of all the same size and color. You get actual car parts, and or small random chunks, that very in shape, color, and size.. and they react with correct vector physics. Makes it so much more realistic and a real work of Kinetic art.. rather than a very unrealistic and poor looking 'hack job'.
I've seen the particle effects that Felsir is talking about and it's not small dots, but sprites that can be thrown around.
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I haven't had a chance to try this yet, but the pics are looking great. Sign me up for the 48hr day, please. I still haven't had time to try out Mamehooker either.
I am installing a new monitor in my Big Buck Safari tonight, so I may not get to either of these. :banghead:
Great work! :cheers:
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I'm definitely interested in this man. Nice work! :applaud:
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Thanks for the kind words!
I have a busy week at work ahead so probably not much progress this week... I plan to get a playable demo with the placeholder graphics on my dropbox this week.
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Get the current version here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yivaovqzncqnl6i/The80sRacer.zip)
This version shows the cliffs and crashes (the crashes have the placeholder graphics in them- these will ofcourse change and some additional effects will be added later).
In arcade mode, you race all courses on a timer- score is tracked. If you run a single track, you run 3 laps and compete for laptimes only. The races have a lead in stretch so you start your first lap with a rolling start.
I'm still looking at what makes tracks fun. I find the difficulty curve a tough nut to crack: at the moment the game is too easy so tracks will change for sure.
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Cool. Will check it out when I get a breather.
I think the main thing to make the game fun is the difficulty in keeping on the track.. and the funny and cool wrecks that result after.. as well as the adrenalin rush from constant near misses.
I think Outrun was a little too lax on the difficulty.. so they made it so that the time was very tight. The extra difficulty came from a lot of traffic, and surprise hairpin turns.
The main issue I believe, is that the game allows you to put the pedal to the floor most of the time... and that many of the turns just are not enough to challenge your handling & driving abilities.
By adding a higher top speed, and making it so that you can rarely ever attain it.. let alone survive tight turns without drastic reflexes at even mild speeds.. it would create a more dynamic and adrenal experience.
A few ideas to add:
- Skidding: Even with good brakes.. your speed reduction should be limited. You shouldnt be able to stop on a dime, if your going +200 MPH. As such, you might slide off the road even with full brakes depressed. In Outrun, merely letting off the gas worked most of the time... because skidding / mass didnt seem to be weighty enough. A visual of tire tracks might be cool too. (only for slamming & holding at high speed, rather than merely tapping or mild braking)
- Sway: If you ever get near the highest of the top end of the speedometer.. maybe it would be interesting to make the car get a little squirly. Where as theres a momentum effect delay to your steering. Easier to get out of control.. and harder to recover.
Squirly - vs - tire slip
Squirly = a little leaning (shocks bending) and rotational turning. Weighted action, making it tough to counter steer due to delay.
Tire Slip = General outrun style slip.. where the car stays vertical, but slides via loss of grip.
I would make it so that getting to the very top end of speed, isnt that easy. Maybe Kamikazi points for "Suicide-Speed" runs. (consecutive hold of top speed for x-amount of time)
Enhanced High-Speed difficulty - By scaling the car a little further into the screen at higher speeds, gives the player less reaction time. Seen in Turbo, and Spy Hunter in High Gear. High gear + gas pedal value = distance into screen.
If getting a higher speed isnt easy.. might want to reduce the scaling count a little. It may look a little choppier, but the speed is much more valueable than a super smooth but slow moving road. Thats usually the problem with typical 3d modeled games. Real life racing just doesnt look & feel fast unless your physically in the car. Experiment with exaggerations, such as possibly adding greater distance between the scaling steps as they get closer to the car.
- Some simple solutions to difficulty ramps:
1) Reduce road width.. as well as possibly the shoulder width (if any at all).
2) Add more traffic. More densely packed traffic moving at various speeds.. can create a rush trying to navigate thru.
3) Two way traffic. Anything head-on will make things really crazy, when trying to pass cars.
4) Erratic drivers. Shift lanes. Driving way too slow. Slams on brakes. Cutting several lanes. Wrecks.
5) Road Stuff - More stuff closer to the road edges.
6) Greater speed
7) Less view - as in, less road distance shown.. and or a perspective, such as a hill.. that you cant see over.
8 ) Add Long Trucks - As they can really block out a lot of visibility, and create a tougher challenge on curves when they are around.
Other visual & play stuff:
In Outrun.. when your car runs on certain kinds of terrain.. theres usually some sort of effect & penalty. On grass..the tires kick up grass as they drive + car is slowed drastically. Similar for beach sand. Would be good effect for road gravel on shoulders - on the mountain areas. As well as snow kicked up..
- High Wind sections - Where a loud blowing howling wind sweeps through.. pushes your car (possibly into another), can makes it harder to navigate corners, can slow your speeds .. tied into force feedback as well.
- bumpy terrain - Where the road could be rough & bumpy, or smooth as glass. Icy, slushy, wet, gravely, rock, pavement, sand...etc.
- Road Cone Challenge: Stay within the cones while driving on roads. Less cones knocked over / crushed = more points.
- Random course levels: Design a few sections of road / scenery.. and computer randomly selects the parts, assembles and merges them to form a completely different and thus non-memorizable stage.
- Sabotage Mode - Like the movie "Speed" ... theres a bomb rigged under your car. If you go too slow or stop.. it will blow. For additional challenge... add a rule that you also cant go above a certain speed. Explosions-a-plenty = Fun / Funny ;)
- Hill Speed Effect - Give the option to slow the cars acceleration on steep hills, as well as speed it up on downgrades.
- Murphys Law - A race where you must survive various catastrophes.. such as sudden falling boulders, fallen trees, animals & people darting out, downed bridges, Railroad crossing gates w/ live trains..etc
- RoadKill - Avoid critters that walk, fly, and or dart out. Maybe a Safari style course? Maybe an abstract course.. where instead of cliffs and bushes.. there are Giraffes, Rhinos, etc. Maybe a road filled with kittens, with a narrow path you must stay in. (least amount of Kitten Car-nage + Time Remaining = more points)
- Damage Control - Keep car within a certain spec of damage, or it doesnt make it to the end of the race... ???
Ok.. I know, Ive went off the deep end heheh
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I'm still working on this, got very little spare time at the moment; some personal stuff and very busy work schedule... :cry: Hopefully an update in about two weeks.
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I have 11 arcade games in my collection and out of those 11 5 are sit down racers. 2 hydrothunder linked, cruis,'n world, nfs underground, and Arctic Thunder.. So I do enjoy racing games. There is a perspective that was awesome that I had never seen before that worked incredible. The game was called Power Slide. Came out in like 1998 and used the unreal engine.. The game was awesome.. Graphically was before its time.. But what really made this game was the width of the tracks.. It just gave the environment a certain feel of depth and reality that almost all racers missed.. Detail in the immediate road every crack, rock, and dirt coming up behind the car.. I was actually ranked 4th in the world in this game and it will probably go down as the best online racer I've played.. Check out the pictures and reviews for it.. Everything about this game drew people into it and made you want to get better at it... Apocolyptic world environment, slinging the cars around the tracks.. You always thought you were doing good till you got to race someone quick.. It was a real eye opener.. Steep learning curve but enjoyable.. An added bonus the creators of the game actually participate in the online racing events. Out of the top 100 racers only me and Bendito used the keyboard. Ranked 4th and 2nd. He was also one of the creators of the game and the character Bendito was actually named after him.. I mean what else could you ask from a racer.. Just check it out. If I was into making games I'd want to know about this one..
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Here is the review at IGN.. And an actual in game picture in the track called "the dam." The makers of Power Slide were Ratbag and GT Interactive. http://www.ign.com/articles/1998/12/23/powerslide. (http://www.ign.com/articles/1998/12/23/powerslide.) Not bad for a 16 year old game and the online was spot on...
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I have 11 arcade games in my collection and out of those 11 5 are sit down racers. 2 hydrothunder linked, cruis,'n world, nfs underground, and Arctic Thunder.. So I do enjoy racing games. There is a perspective that was awesome that I had never seen before that worked incredible. The game was called Power Slide. Came out in like 1998 and used the unreal engine.. The game was awesome.. Graphically was before its time.. But what really made this game was the width of the tracks.. It just gave the environment a certain feel of depth and reality that almost all racers missed.. Detail in the immediate road every crack, rock, and dirt coming up behind the car.. I was actually ranked 4th in the world in this game and it will probably go down as the best online racer I've played.. Check out the pictures and reviews for it.. Everything about this game drew people into it and made you want to get better at it... Apocolyptic world environment, slinging the cars around the tracks.. You always thought you were doing good till you got to race someone quick.. It was a real eye opener.. Steep learning curve but enjoyable.. An added bonus the creators of the game actually participate in the online racing events. Out of the top 100 racers only me and Bendito used the keyboard. Ranked 4th and 2nd. He was also one of the creators of the game and the character Bendito was actually named after him.. I mean what else could you ask from a racer.. Just check it out. If I was into making games I'd want to know about this one..
Here is the review at IGN.. And an actual in game picture in the track called "the dam." The makers of Power Slide were Ratbag and GT Interactive. http://www.ign.com/articles/1998/12/23/powerslide. (http://www.ign.com/articles/1998/12/23/powerslide.) Not bad for a 16 year old game and the online was spot on...
Is this the same game? http://www.gog.com/game/powerslide (http://www.gog.com/game/powerslide)
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Yeap..
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now the most important question... does it support force feedback? ;D
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Is this still in progress? I'm working on 2 games of my own and came across this while seeing what others have done. Looks great! I can't wait to get home and try it!
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Yeah, I'm still working on it. Progress is really slow due to the lack of spare time at the moment :-/ (long story short: my daughter has some health issues so lots of time is spend with medical specialists...)
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Hi Felsir - just joined and wanted to say how much I enjoy your game, really well done on capturing the spirit of 80's arcade racing games:)
Understand that you don't have the time to work on it at the moment and I hope your daughter get's well soon.
If your still taking requests on the game when you come to revisit it is there a possibility that could you make the Lambo a bit bigger as it looks really small compared to the other cars on the road.
Also when you turn left or right can we have have some GFX added to the tyres to show that the car is skidding, otherwise it just looks like the car is sliding along the road.
Those were the only 2 things I would change and I'm really impressed with what you've done so far and can't wait to see what else you add to it.
I also made a desktop icon for the game to give it that retro 80's feel :)
(http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2014/236/5/1/the_80s_racer_game_icon_by_pooterman_by_pooterman-d7wi66d.png)
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(off topic) Hey Pooterman, I'm a fellow Chase HQ 2 enthusiast. I've been seeing your name pop-up in a lot of other forums I've been keeping an eye on for any updates about it. Bit of a bummer that when a dump of it finally does appear it's still encrypted :( . Not sure how all those other Taito Type X & X2 games out there on the web ended up getting decrypted but it looks like everyone's drawing a blank on this one. Frustrating as it's the one TTX2 game out of the whole lot of them I'm desperate to play at home. :badmood:
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Hey MTW - I've been subscribing to your YouTube channel for a long time now and post on you YouTube pages too under my real name (Gary).
Uncanny that we both share the same interest in the same games - but then again they are really great games so no surprise there!
Yes I have been posting on other forums asking about the progress of Chase HQ 2 for quite a while now as I tried to bypass the encryption when the rom was dumped ages ago but nobody seemed interested in getting it running on the PC. There seems to have been more interest in getting Battle Gear 4 running which surprised me as I thought Chase HQ 2 was the better game of the two!
I just don't want people giving up on trying to get it running on their PC as I fear they might well do which would be a real shame.
It can't be just me and you who are the biggest fans of Chase HQ 2 can it?
Anyone else played the game and want it emulated as bad as me and MTW do?
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Hey MTW - I've been subscribing to your YouTube channel for a long time now and post on you YouTube pages too under my real name (Gary).
Ah, I had a funny feeling you were one and the same person.
I just don't want people giving up on trying to get it running on their PC as I fear they might well do which would be a real shame.
Well, I think there's a least one guy on a French forum who's having a try at getting it running, but I get the feeling he could use a bit of help from someone who really knows what they're doing with this sort of stuff...
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I'll do good to get 2k6 out before the end of September. I don't need anymore projects even though Hq 2 is frikkin awesome. :banghead:
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Ha, don't worry dude, that wasn't like a subtle hint or anything, just more of an observation.
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don't say that Thunderwing - I'm fully expecting Howard to create Outrun 3 after all this!
I have to believe!
:)
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Hi, can I contact the author of this thread?
I'm very interested in retro racing projects and engines. This looks very neat, cliffs are amazing, I'm trying to code in cliffs for weeks now without success.
Very interesting reading at any case.
If maker of this game reads this - please contqct me.