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Main => Consoles => Topic started by: opt2not on October 10, 2018, 05:50:26 pm

Title: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: opt2not on October 10, 2018, 05:50:26 pm
Iím a fan of Arkanoid. I used to own the boards and spinners when I owned a cabinet with a vertically mounted monitor. Having moved and needing to downsize my cabinets, Iíve conceded to play Arkanoid (1 & 2) on my famicom using the Vaus controller. Itís a great port, and the controller works surprisingly well.
Nintendo made the great decision to support this game by producing a proper spinner controller for a more authentic experience.

Then came the SNES, and an exclusive release of Arkanoid - Doh it Again, but no spinner controller! This game is fantastic, and really could use a proper spinner. Iíve read that it supports the mouse that came with Mario Paint, which got me thinking, has anyone hacked the SNES mouse to a spinner? From the internals of the mouse it looks like itís just a wheel encoder like the old ball mice.
Iíve been searching around to see if this has been done before, but havenít found any results. I donít have an SNES mouse on-hand to see if itís actually doable, but perhaps someone here has some experience with this old style spinner hack from BITD. I remember people used to take the old ball mice encoders and rigged up our mame spinners, before optical encoders were available on the market. I would assume this would be similar.

Anyone have any insights on this?
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 10, 2018, 08:20:39 pm
I still primarily use mouse hacks for spinners and trackballs on the pc end of things... you can get the old mice for about a buck on ebay anymore.  It's no biggie... pull voltage and ground from somewhere on the board and then the data + and - from the optical sensor traces in the mouse, after des-oldering the mouse sensor of course.  The only issue you might run into is I think the snes controller port only uses 3.3v, which might not be enough to power an arcade pcb.  I think there is a reproduction snes mouse out now which might be a better option, or even better yet just fake the signal with an Arduino and do the whole thing from scratch. 
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: bigster on October 10, 2018, 09:01:28 pm
That is a great arkanoid game.  I bought it right when it came out.  I never even thought of using a spinner I guess I always thought of game as a snes game. 

Another possibly cheaper option is to get a famicom to snes controller converter and try the controller you have already.  Ralphnet probably has one but it is also probably easy to wire yourself if you don't mind hacking that famicom controller.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: opt2not on October 10, 2018, 11:24:44 pm
Thanks for the suggestions guys.

I want to try a more simple approach ó get an Arkanoid spinner, remove the optical pcb. Get an snes mouse, pull the pcb out of it and try to fit it into the Arkanoid spinner (somehow), fitting itís optical wheel into the mouseís sensor.
Tap the right and left button pads to connect to push buttons, mount it all in a project box and call it a day.

Iíve already found a cheap $10 snes mouse, now I gotta see about acquiring an Arkanoid spinner and see if my plan can be hacked together.
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 10, 2018, 11:42:33 pm
That's probably not going to work due to how small the optical sensors are on the snes mouse and the different tooth ratio ect.  You'll most likely have to use an arcade encoder pc wired to the mouse.  Thinking about it more even that is going to be tricky as I'm sure the game is coded so that you don't have to move the mouse that much to move the paddle compared to a spinner. 
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: opt2not on October 10, 2018, 11:50:01 pm
Yeah I thought about that as well. I want to get the mouse and spinner in hand and see what Iím dealing with here. I was thinking maybe I could transplant the mouse wheel onto the Arkanoid spinner and use that instead of its own wheel.
But if there isnít a physical hack I can do, Iíll look into a electrical solution.
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: opt2not on October 17, 2018, 07:03:11 pm
Alright, I got my components to start digging into.
Picked up a dirt cheap SNES mouse ($5), and original Arkanoid spinner. I've cleaned up the mouse, but still gotta tackle the Arkanoid spinner.
(https://i.imgur.com/VSXtOW9.jpg)

I've got experience cleaning these spinners up and getting them spinning silky smooth from my refurb cocktail project a while back.
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=90051.0;attach=133953)

Disassembled the mouse to see what we're dealing with here. Optic sensors on a small PCB, encoder wheels for each axis, and of course the two button switches:
(https://i.imgur.com/YHqjYyu.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ImD05Cm.jpg)

Here's a shot of the encoder wheels and a comparison. Different tooth ratio for sure, if they were closer I might have just tried my physical solution, but it looks like I'll have to go the electrical route.
(https://i.imgur.com/DQVB7Yq.jpg)

I've read somewhere that the Arkanoid spinners with taito optic boards are active-high.  I'll have to look up that thread again, but I know there is a way of determining whether the optics are active-high or low, so I'll need to determine that on the SNES mouse. I know i can convert the Arkanoid spinner to active-low if I need to, by introducing a couple resistors on the data lines (again I'll have to find that thread), but I think I'm going to have to try what H_C suggests and tap the data lines from the Arkanoid spinner's board and solder them to the SNES mouse PCB after removing the optic sensors.

For Arkanoid: Doh it Again with the SNES mouse, left/right movement obviously moves your ship, while up/down are used for menu navigation. Left mouse-button is fire/select, and Right mouse-button is pause.  I'll definitely need two push-buttons connected for these, but I'll also need to figure out how to get Up and Down movement translated into button presses. I don't *need* up and down, if it comes down to it, but it's a nice bonus to have so that I don't have to connect a P2 controller to just access menus.

First thing I should do is verify the optic board works on the Arkanoid Spinner. Since I don't have an arcade PCB of Arkanoid to do a quick hook-up test, I'll have to do it the old fashioned way and measure voltages with a multimeter.

More investigation to come, any feedback/suggestions are welcome.
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 17, 2018, 08:00:09 pm
Actually I think the tooth count is about the same.  The wheel sizes are different but that doesn't really matter.  I think you might be in luck.  For up/down the simplest solution might be to hack a scroll wheel. 
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: PL1 on October 17, 2018, 10:04:57 pm
Actually I think the tooth count is about the same.  The wheel sizes are different but that doesn't really matter.
The challenge with using a different encoder wheel is that the distance between the optos has to equal the distance from the edge of one tooth to the center of another.

If you're off by 1/2 the width of a tooth, the output waveform has no phase 2 or 4 -- the encoder can't tell which direction the wheel is turning.


Scott
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: Howard_Casto on October 18, 2018, 03:36:02 pm
Well unless I'm misunderstanding, he's going to use the encoder board that came with the spinner and wire it to the mouse pcb, so that shouldn't be an issue.  My point was I believe it's the same number of teeth, so the resolution of the spinner should be similar. 
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: PL1 on October 18, 2018, 04:56:16 pm
Agreed that Opt is doing an electronic hack, not a physical wheel hack.

As long as he works out these two possible issues, he should be good to go.

  1. Are the mouse and spinner active high or active low?

  2. Does the gearing in the Arkanoid spinner increase the rate of rotation enough to cause backspin?

For Arkanoid: Doh it Again with the SNES mouse, left/right movement obviously moves your ship, while up/down are used for menu navigation. Left mouse-button is fire/select, and Right mouse-button is pause.  I'll definitely need two push-buttons connected for these, but I'll also need to figure out how to get Up and Down movement translated into button presses. I don't *need* up and down, if it comes down to it, but it's a nice bonus to have so that I don't have to connect a P2 controller to just access menus.
For the up/down scroll wheel you might be able to adapt the 2-bit gray-code encoder from an Atari 2600 CX-20 driving controller.

It wouldn't be a good choice for a spinner, but should be fine for menus.

Blue and White = wire color in original controller

Black wire is the common/ground

X = continuity between that wire and ground, blank = open

If you break each rotation into 16 steps, the outputs are as follows:

      Blue    White
------------------ First quadrant
01
02                 X
03      X         X
04      X
------------------ Second quadrant
05      
06                 X
07      X         X
08      X   
------------------ Third quadrant
09      
10                 X
11      X         X
12      X   
------------------ Fourth quadrant
13      
14                 X
15      X         X
16      X   


Scott
EDIT: Added diagram.
Blue wire is connected to the contacts on the inner ring.
White wire is connected to the contacts on the outer ring.
Black wire (ground) is connected to the pivot arm.
(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=139819.0;attach=312447;image)

(http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=149491.0;attach=344402;image)


Scott
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: KenToad on December 11, 2020, 10:39:10 am
Opt2Not, did you ever get this hack working? I ended up getting an SNES mouse and playing through most of Doh it Again. It's fun, definitely one of the best Arkanoid games. The interesting bit for me is that it supports co-op and multiple mice, although I haven't been able to test that yet, since I only have one SNES mouse.
Title: Re: Arkanoid Doh it Again (SNES) with a spinner?
Post by: opt2not on December 11, 2020, 06:39:57 pm
No, not yet. itís still on my list, though. I just been distracted with other projects.