But I hope nobody who buys a DKII kit will dump and distribute the roms. If they spread on the net, the creator will know about it, and know he's losing money he ought to be making selling kits. That's the kind of thing that can leave a bad taste in a guy's mouth, the kind of thing that can keep him from ever doing another similar project. And I'd like to see more.
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?You would need permission to make anything with the Donkey Kong name since it's copyrighted by Nintendo.
That's the kind of thing that can leave a bad taste in a guy's mouth, the kind of thing that can keep him from ever doing another similar project. And I'd like to see more.
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
By releasing only a ROM chip set, the author has completely ignored a majority of his market, so it is inevitable that his work will be dumped and distributed freely eventually because the market demands it.
By releasing only a ROM chip set, the author has completely ignored a majority of his market, so it is inevitable that his work will be dumped and distributed freely eventually because the market demands it.
Because we all know how willing MAMErs are to pay for their ROMS ... ;) ... and, yes, I know some are (hey, I bought from StarROMS), but they are a definite minority, not a majority of the market. The folks on the dark side are more willing to pay for stuff like this, so I don't think that your assessment of the market is quite right.
Oh, and the ROMS are available from ArcadeShop (I missed that important point earlier). They sell them for use on their programmable multiboard.
regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
Extremely illegal. It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.
Cool? Yes. Legal? Nope.
Sure would like to play it, though. :D
yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.Haze,
I disagree. A bootleg is a 1:1 copy of an original game. Very easy to do because you don't have to be creative to design levels, don't have to test drive and improve them, test again, improve further, add stuff that only appear in later levels etc. etc. Basically this is a new game, using the same characters and basic game mechanics as an original.regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
Extremely illegal. It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.
Cool? Yes. Legal? Nope.
Sure would like to play it, though. :D
yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.
Who cares if you disagree?
I disagree. A bootleg is a 1:1 copy of an original game. Very easy to do because you don't have to be creative to design levels, don't have to test drive and improve them, test again, improve further, add stuff that only appear in later levels etc. etc. Basically this is a new game, using the same characters and basic game mechanics as an original.regarding what your saying there kremmit, how legal is dk II anyway,? does the guy making these boards, have/need permission from the original DK producers?
Extremely illegal. It's utilizing all manner of copyrighted code and trademarked artwork.
Cool? Yes. Legal? Nope.
Sure would like to play it, though. :D
yeah, it's effectively nothing but a fancy bootleg with new levels.
I beleive charging people for something you do not own is much more offensive than some hick in the middle of nowhere playing downloaded versions of a 20+ year old game for free, especialy considering there is nowhere within 50 miles to play said games in arcade form, aside from the pizza place that is charging people to use an illegal multi-cade.
but, thats just me.
-Harry
Don't beleive me? Go to an arcade auction sometime. The one that just happened in Richmond had 5 or 6 brand new Multi-cades. All illegal, all home-made, and all of them had a pricetag of $1200 or more, none of which the copywright owners will see. At least one of them was running mame ( I saw the computer case through a gap in the cabinet). Now, do you think all of those multi-cades had chips produced by the original manufacturer (assuming they even have chips), or chips with roms downloaded off the internet?
Thats what I'm getting at. You can call me all of the cuss words you want, but if you sit down and think about it, you'll find I'm right.
-Harry
http://www.amazon.com/Donkey-Kong-Mario-Bros-Donkey-Kong-Jr/dp/B000GF7L4M/ref=pd_sbs_sg_njs_title_2 (http://www.amazon.com/Donkey-Kong-Mario-Bros-Donkey-Kong-Jr/dp/B000GF7L4M/ref=pd_sbs_sg_njs_title_2) Yes I do.
You obviously need to grow up.
-Harry
Question Harry...how much profit do the original copyright holders see when people sell their 25 year old cabinets at an auction? NONE! NOT A DIME! Why? Because they ALREADY MADE THEIR MONEY when they sold it the first time!
Harry, you're being totally misguided. The guy selling the rom hack isn't going to get rich, or even be able to afford himself anything more than dinner and movie once every 4 months.Actually, he is not selling a board, just the chips that carry the hacked program. The Braze kit that carries the chips are not Jeff's product AFAIK. That doesn't make your point less valid Ray. His costs were his hours spent to create it. (And the chips. And I also see that US shipping is included in the 40 bucks.)
Do you know how much it costs to manufacture custom circuit boards and roms in such small quantities? He's asking $40 for pete's sake. That's barely enough to cover his cost. If there's a any profit at all, it might cover the hours of time he spent making this, but nothing more.
Get a little perspective.
It makes it very easy for folks to do stuff like Jeff has.
Go to an arcade auction sometime. The one that just happened in Richmond had 5 or 6 brand new Multi-cades. All illegal, all home-made, and all of them had a pricetag of $1200 or more, none of which the copywright owners will see. At least one of them was running mame ( I saw the computer case through a gap in the cabinet). Now, do you think all of those multi-cades had chips produced by the original manufacturer (assuming they even have chips), or chips with roms downloaded off the internet?
This guy and people like him are not helping the community at all. They're hurting it.
However, I find it very odd that a group of people who strongly hate multi-game boards as much as you guys do can condone esentialy the same actions on something that is just as illegal.
QuoteQuestion Harry...how much profit do the original copyright holders see when people sell their 25 year old cabinets at an auction? NONE! NOT A DIME! Why? Because they ALREADY MADE THEIR MONEY when they sold it the first time!
You're taking things out of their context. When you buy an arcade cabinet (or a CD or a book) you buy the right to use the content. You can transfer this right but not multiply or change the content. Imagine if someone would change Tolkien's Lord of the Rings or recorded a sequel to Dark Side of the Moon without consulting with or getting permission from the copyright owners. He would be sued, wouldn't he? It gets worse if he decides to sell it on the internet because then it's not a non-profit operation anymore. Just because he's under the radar of a big corporation like Nintendo doesn't mean that they won't go after him. Nintendo did bring out sequels to Donkey Kong, just not in the arcades. Nintendo hold separate copyrights on the DK and Mario (Jumpman) characters and stills gets millions in revenue from them. Even using those in a complete rewrite of the DK game would make it illegal. Don't confuse legality with justice ;)
Let's just say that D2K isn't going to have any effect on my Nintendo console habits.
Consoles were my bridge drug to vid cabs which were my bridge drug to pins. It's a vicious cycle. I fear what may be next.
BYOHD
(Build Your Own Holo-Deck)
Those plate are, ahem, already restricted.
:woot
Hey guys, someone is reproducing Nintendo restrictor plates.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=73374.0
Let's mail Nintendo about this criminal !!!
I'm just not sure any laws are being broken here, leaving any moral arguments aside. This hack only works if you have a DK board, and already own the intellectual property in question. I have not seen anywhere that says any of Nintendo/Namco's intellectual property is contained on the kit he's selling. If the kit is simply a new set of instructions telling the game how to present and manipulate the data on the legally purchased DK boardset, then I don't believe there is any illegality involved. People sell kits to modify products consumers own all the time, such as kits to modify cars. There are many different arcade hacks out there, such as chips that will enable free play. Without evidence of copyright infringement to the contrary, I think any claims of illegality are speculation, at best.
If he does have Nintendo/Namco intellectual property on the kit he's selling instead of just referencing the code on the original board, then the discussion changes. I'm not entirely clear what is and isn't allowable as a derivative work.
--- saint
Anyone know of other mini arcade cutouts similiar to:
http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/d2k_cabinet.htm
??
Not really trying to stir the fire, but while I was searching for some shielded 6x9 speakers, I came across this:
http://www.arcadeshop.com/multi-pcb/dk2/dk2.htm (http://www.arcadeshop.com/multi-pcb/dk2/dk2.htm)
So it would seem Jeff is not just selling nintendo's property to people who already have donkey kong pcbs.
-Harry
(http://shifteightgeneration.com/smilies/db.php?txt=Cheffo%20loves\Tommy!!!!)
Well, please explain what makes this any different or more moral than any other bootleg or hack?
Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to pick a fight. I just don't see how someone spending a lot of time working on something illegal makes it moral. I see it a lot like someone making moonshine. It take a long time to make it, but its still illegal.
Now I understand the situation.
Jeff is part of the "club". Anyone in the club can do what they like with what they like, no matter how illegal it is. If someone outside of the club questions it, the club comes down on them like a ton of bricks.
You also seem to be under the impression that owning a game gives you a legal right to have rom files of said game. It does not, and that is just as illegal. Unauthorized ROM files are illegal, no matter if you own the PCBs, Cartridge, disk, or anything else.
Selling hacked versions of games (be it via a pass-through or whatever) does nothing but draw more negative attention to those of us who (while having illegal copies of games) actualy mean no harm to any of the copywright holders, but would still like to play their games when we have no means of doing so otherwise. See where I'm comming from?
§ 117. Limitations on exclusive rights: Computer programs53
(a) Making of Additional Copy or Adaptation by Owner of Copy. — Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106, it is not an infringement for the owner of a copy of a computer program to make or authorize the making of another copy or adaptation of that computer program provided:
(1) that such a new copy or adaptation is created as an essential step in the utilization of the computer program in conjunction with a machine and that it is used in no other manner, or
(2) that such new copy or adaptation is for archival purposes only and that all archival copies are destroyed in the event that continued possession of the computer program should cease to be rightful.
(b) Lease, Sale, or Other Transfer of Additional Copy or Adaptation. — Any exact copies prepared in accordance with the provisions of this section may be leased, sold, or otherwise transferred, along with the copy from which such copies were prepared, only as part of the lease, sale, or other transfer of all rights in the program. Adaptations so prepared may be transferred only with the authorization of the copyright owner.
The majority of people (i.e. not you and frizzle) do not have $700 plus to drop on a ragged donkey kong machine that may or may not work, plus have the extra $$$ to have it shipped from out of state.
-Harry
I just wish they'd sell the Braze Kit with the new DKII roms already installed (since one depends on the other) instead of pinching you for both separately.
Harry, how hard is it for you to understand that the chips contain a set of data that alters the original board's data? That's not illegal.
The DMCA even provides exceptions for "obsolete" hardware and media.
Hacking game code isn't a copyright violation unless the chips being sold actually CONTAIN game code. If its just new level data, the new bits and bytes that dictate which graphic tile goes where is actually copyright of the guy who made this hack!
Section 1201 divides technological measures into two categories: measures that
prevent unauthorized access to a copyrighted work and measures that prevent
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998
2“Copying” is used in this context as a short-hand for the exercise of any of the exclusive
rights of an author under section 106 of the Copyright Act. Consequently, a technological
measure that prevents unauthorized distribution or public performance of a work would fall
in this second category.
unauthorized copying2 of a copyrighted work. Making or selling devices or services that
are used to circumvent either category of technological measure is prohibited in certain
circumstances, described below. As to the act of circumvention in itself, the provision
prohibits circumventing the first category of technological measures, but not the
second.
This distinction was employed to assure that the public will have the continued
ability to make fair use of copyrighted works. Since copying of a work may be a fair use
under appropriate circumstances, section 1201 does not prohibit the act of circumventing
a technological measure that prevents copying.
Ahh, but what is game code by definition? Does Game code not dictate what graphic tile goes where? Does game code not dictate what pallet is used to color said graphic tile?To answer the question, no. The video hardware handles this. But why don't you ask a programmer? Oh hey, I'm a programmer. Ask me.
This is where I feel that anyone making money off of property that is not theirs is worse than those who aren't making any money but enjoying the games. E.G. someone who builds a MAME cab and charges people to play it are worse off than those who build a MAME cab for their own enjoyment.
This is where I feel that anyone making money off of property that is not theirs is worse than those who aren't making any money but enjoying the games. E.G. someone who builds a MAME cab and charges people to play it are worse off than those who build a MAME cab for their own enjoyment.
To be clear, I was speaking specifically of people like Jeff, who are not selling MAME cabs (a point on which I would agree with you), but who support the coin-op hobby (e.g. there is more to the hobby than just MAME) with stuff like D2K.
To answer the question, no. The video hardware handles this. But why don't you ask a programmer? Oh hey, I'm a programmer. Ask me.
I'm not going to bother explaining to a non-techy how the hardware and programming works just to try and change your preconceptions, that I sense is futile. But you can see for yourself from this list that each set of data is on its own chip(s): See here: http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/dk/
You could swap out a chip with your own set of new "moving objects" or your own set of new colors and there's absolutely nothing illegal about that. In fact, the new set of graphics would be copyrighted by YOU the creator of those new graphics.
It's only infringing if the DkII chip still has some original data on it. (Something we can't know for sure without dumping this new chip and comparing it with the original).
But picture this ok... you own a DK board but it's not working properly. You send it to someone to fix. In order to repair the board, Mr. Repairman must replace a few ROM chips. In order to do this, the replacement ROMs must be burned with the correct data. Since the old chips are broken or corrupt, where does this data come from? You cannot buy them from Nintendo. So the service person takes another working DK board, and dumps the data from those chips onto his PC. He then burns this data to the new chips, then installs them on the board. Game works like new again. He sends it back to you and you pay him for his services.
TECHNICALLY, if you want to be an ass about it, that repair person just broke copyright law TWICE. Once when he created a copy on his PC and a second time by burning the data to new chips. There's no way in hell Nintendo are going to provide repair services for a 25 year old game board. But people like HARRY would like to see Mr. Repairman turned in to Nintendo. How nice of him. (And don't try to say "well that's different, this guy is SELLING his hack". The repair man gets PAID too).
No problem. What he's doing by selling D2K is akin to the whole Galoob vs. Nintendo battle many, many years ago. Galoob was marketing the Game Genie which ran on Nintendo's hardware but altered the way the hardware worked. It was deemed perfectly legal because none of the Game Genie's hardware or code was taken from Nintendo nor did they break some type of encryption to get the Game Genie to work.
As long as he's not breaking any encryption to get his D2K modification to work, and as long as he's not using any of Nintendo's code, what he's doing is akin to what the Game Genie did and the Game Genie was deemed 100% legal.
Now those people who sell DVDs full of ROMS or cabs fully stocked with games should be drawn and quartered.
How do you explain "crazy kong"? How about the numerous pac-man maze hacks?. For some reason, they're illegal...
COPY OF: Donkey Kong
This game is not a bootleg, but a legitimate release licensed for non-US markets.
holy sh!t, lock this thread.Once again, do some research. Nintendo sued Tengen and won the case because their games bypassed or defeated the encryption on the NES. The game genie does the same thing, just in a different way. The judge clearly said that nintendo had already made plenty of money on the NES, so she was gonna let the Game genie slide. By law, the game genie is illegal, but the judge basicly didn't give a rip.
A judge found the Game Genie was not infringing, but because Harry says so, it is illegal.
I point Harry to a table that shows how the data is divided up among different chips, but harry's too stupid to understand how programming would LOOK UP the data and write it to the screen, so again, he's right, and those who know better are wrong.
Mmmmm, what do you think ? Did Nintendo make lots of money on DK (the arcade game) ? One of the biggest arcade hits ever ? A game released over 26 years ago. Do you really think a judge is going to decide something else in this case ? The Game Genie probably sold a couple of million, or at least somewhere in the 100,000's. We're talking about, what 100,300 DK2's ?
Man, Nintendo is earning truckloads of money on the Wii and the DS these days, do you think they will loose a second of sleep over DK2 ? I don't think so.
AGAIN you are mis-informed (to put it politely). Discussing x-in-1 boards IS ok here as long as you do not link or reference to sellers.
AGAIN you are mis-informed (to put it politely). Discussing x-in-1 boards IS ok here as long as you do not link or reference to sellers.
There is a link to the said illegal multi-boards on the first post of this topic, posted by you, no less.
So I guess its ok if you do it, because its all in the club, right?
-Harry
The double-standard at this forum is astounding.
The double-standard at this forum is astounding.
you can lock it lev
i just tried it on an old thread and i think it worked, i could lock it and unlock it, theres also a buton there to remove topic, didnt think that was possible.you can lock it lev
That ability was taken away a while back thanks to Mr. Koolmoecraig, I believe.
Mmmmm, what do you think ? Did Nintendo make lots of money on DK (the arcade game) ? One of the biggest arcade hits ever ? A game released over 26 years ago. Do you really think a judge is going to decide something else in this case ? The Game Genie probably sold a couple of million, or at least somewhere in the 100,000's. We're talking about, what 100,300 DK2's ?
I think a competent judge would realize that the law is the law and making a crap-load of money on something does not make the laws protecting it dissapear. The judge in the galoob-vs-nintendo case was not competent.
-Harry
People that have actually played Donkey Kong 2 - how is it?
I would like to see the transcript from the Nintendo Vs. Galoob case. You seem to be spouting off a lot of stuff like it's fact, but so far haven't given any proof. Granted, you may indeed be correct, but I would like to see the court transcript to ensure that you are correct.
Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v. Nintendo of America, Inc. (Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, 1992) was a court case which established the rights of users to modify copyrighted works for their own use.
Galoob manufactured an add-on product called Game Genie, which allowed users to modify video games by entering in certain codes; for example, a code might make the player invincible by negating the programming that updates the player's health amount. Nintendo, which sold a video game system and video games that could be modified by Game Genie, sued Galoob for copyright infringement, arguing that Game Genie made a derivative work, violating Nintendo's copyright in their video game.
The Court denied Nintendo's motion for a preliminary injunction, holding that Game Genie did not create a derivative work and also suggesting that even if it did, it might well be fair use. As the district court wrote, "Having paid Nintendo a fair return, the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."
See also Foresight v. Pfortmiller, 719 F. Supp 1006 (D. Kan. 1989). An earlier appellate case on similar facts came out the other way, favoring the monopolist in Midway Manufacturing Co. v. Artic International, Inc..
I can't.have you been naughty ;)
The judge clearly said that nintendo had already made plenty of money on the NES, so she was gonna let the Game genie slide. By law, the game genie is illegal, but the judge basicly didn't give a rip.
The Court denied Nintendo's motion for a preliminary injunction, holding that Game Genie did not create a derivative work and also suggesting that even if it did, it might well be fair use. As the district court wrote, "]Having paid Nintendo a fair return, the consumer may experiment with the product and create new variations of play, for personal enjoyment, without creating a derivative work."
I see that this hack requires swapping out some roms on a Braze Kit. Now, if you go and buy a Braze wanting this hack included on it, I wonder if you can save money by buying both at once?
Now I understand what you were reacting to, but this loses the simple elegance of the original response!Wahahahaha ;) Simple yes, "elegant" no.
;)
Hahahahahah. At least this way we can test-run it. It hasn't really struck my fancy, so I'd guess I'm in the clear.
I think all sorts of people, in various camps, are too serious about all this.
Let's remember that you were the guy complaining about objectivity in the MAMEY judging ... which makes you the resident expert on taking things too seriously ...
I think all sorts of people, in various camps, are too serious about all this.
I guess screwing over a guy friendly to the arcade community just isn't my "thing"... if that means I am too "serious" about the issue, so be it.
I can't blame you for trying DKII... what with it being included in MisfitMAME and all... however if you DID like it you'd buy the ROM, right? ::)
Hows this for Irony... I bought and paid for the ROM for the AS multigame board...but I don't have full access to it... nope... I can only download to the board once per update of the installation software...
It's hard but not harder than Donkey Kong..DK2 is the game I play most these days..I never had the training from Donkey Kong so I'm a newbie...People that have actually played Donkey Kong 2 - how is it?
Fun! But hard! Very hard! I am at about 25,000 with about 30-35 games in to it.
It's hard but not harder than Donkey Kong..DK2 is the game I play most these days..I never had the training from Donkey Kong so I'm a newbie...People that have actually played Donkey Kong 2 - how is it?
Fun! But hard! Very hard! I am at about 25,000 with about 30-35 games in to it.
I have no idea how to make the pully elevator be up so that I can jump across. This game would've totally died in the golden age.Take the last hart...
I have no idea how to make the pully elevator be up so that I can jump across. This game would've totally died in the golden age.Take the last hart...
Which one?I have no idea how to make the pully elevator be up so that I can jump across. This game would've totally died in the golden age.Take the last hart...
I dont know what level your talking about ...but take all the harts..Which one?I have no idea how to make the pully elevator be up so that I can jump across. This game would've totally died in the golden age.Take the last hart...
(http://www.tvshowsondvd.net/graphics/news3/HartToHart_S2_early.jpg)
2) AFAIK Nintendo is aware of this project and have given their blessing not only for the game, but for the use of the artwork.
Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.
Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.
Sounds like pretty much every MAMEr out there ... :embarassed:
Well, I think of it like this: If one was never going to buy a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.
Sounds like pretty much every MAMEr out there ... :embarassed:
Well, I think of it like this: If one was intending to steal a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.
Well, I think of it like this: If one was intending to steal a thing to begin with, then whomever created it isn't really missing out on any revenue.
Fixed...
Jeff was, quite rightfully, pissed at how D2K came to be included in misfit MAME.
Jeff was, quite rightfully, pissed at how D2K came to be included in misfit MAME.
If this is true, I think Jeff needs to do some soul searching and ask himself: What's really important? That he makes a few bucks for his effort, or that a larger number of people are playing his game?
Honestly, if money was his motivation to begin with, and his motivation to continue, then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts. Artistically, you can't really, truely, be inspired by money. It has to go deeper than that.
Money is a thing. He will get it money, he will spend it, and it will be gone. However, if what he has created is good, people will play his game and he will be remembered for that far longer than his money lasts.
Different strokes for different folks... but anytime I create something and send it out into the ether, the only thing I care about is that people experience it, and get the enjoyment from it that it was intended to give. The only time I feel loss, is if people don't discover it.
then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts
I can count on two hands (and some toes) the number of folks that have contributed money to this place, but I used saint as an example.
because it points out, as TheShanMan points out above, one of the reasons why the coin-op collector community gets so upset with the MAIMers. I can't see how anybody can say something like this about Jeff. How many of you have played his version of Dragon's Lair ? Or otherwise benefited from work he's done, particularly vis-a-vis Laserdisc games. It certainly seems that isucamper has with his playing of these games via Daphne.
Isu, more power to you if you want to do stuff for free. But don't expect others to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money from a creation,
and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.
I am SURE that if anyone has thought about doing a creation along the lines of D2K they have given thought to the fact that their work will inevitably be ripped off for use in a MAME derivative like MisfitMAME.
It may be "art" but it's also "hard work". He's choosing to trade hard work for money. Something I'm sure you do as well. Don't tell me that you put in your 40 hours for free because money is just a "thing".
I can count on two hands (and some toes) the number of folks that have contributed money to this place, but I used saint as an example.
I thought I was contributing when I bought his book. :)
because it points out, as TheShanMan points out above, one of the reasons why the coin-op collector community gets so upset with the MAIMers. I can't see how anybody can say something like this about Jeff. How many of you have played his version of Dragon's Lair ? Or otherwise benefited from work he's done, particularly vis-a-vis Laserdisc games. It certainly seems that isucamper has with his playing of these games via Daphne.
I'm not sure what you're saying here.
and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.
I never said anything of the sort. Its at this point in Internet arguements, when people start putting words in my mouth, that I usually take my leave.
I'm totally fine with having the debate you seem to want to have (I might not even be on the opposite side), but that isn't the discussion here -- we're talking about a specific guy and his specific work.
Isu, more power to you if you want to do stuff for free. But don't expect others to do so. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making money from a creation,
Absolutely not. I guess I just feel that if someone creates something and then makes me pay for it in order to experience it, if it ends up being crap (which is usually the case these days in the film and music industry), then it is actually me that has been stolen from. Where as if you are more generous with your creations, if you are desearving, you're rewards will come anyway. And if they don't come, they what you created wasn't worth peoples time or money to begin with.
There's a whole... machine... out there that is designed to steal from us. They create art for the purpose of holding the copywrite and charging you for it. Then, when they don't get their payoff (because what they were selling was crap anyway), they blame the internet for it. (I'm not at all saying any of this applies to the DK2 situation)
and to imply that the arcade game community would be better off without D2K because he charges for it is ridiculous.
I never said anything of the sort. Its at this point in Internet arguements, when people start putting words in my mouth, that I usually take my leave.
Honestly, if money was his motivation to begin with, and his motivation to continue, then I doubt we will be missing much from his future efforts.
I am SURE that if anyone has thought about doing a creation along the lines of D2K they have given thought to the fact that their work will inevitably be ripped off for use in a MAME derivative like MisfitMAME.
And hopefully, the fact that their game would be available to a very wide audience makes them happy.
It may be "art" but it's also "hard work". He's choosing to trade hard work for money. Something I'm sure you do as well. Don't tell me that you put in your 40 hours for free because money is just a "thing".
Do not confuse work with art. There is no love put in to a janitor scrubbing a toilet (that's not my job by the way). The janitor doesn't feel a special bond with the toilet when he's done cleaning it. We're talking about something, completely, totally different. Just because you work hard on something, doesn't mean you have the right to anyone's money.
I started in on this thread when TheShanMan was putting some pressure on Ummon that rubbed me the wrong way (you downloaded it, you owe money). If that was off topic, I apologize.
Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal. :dizzy:
And hopefully, the fact that their game would be available to a very wide audience makes them happy.
What does that have to do with ripping off D2K? ???
What does that have to do with ripping off D2K? ???I was subtly hinting that you're spinning your emotional wheels. As is everyone else in some manner in this portion of the thread.
Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal. :dizzy:
You haven't read a single word of what I wrote today.
And if you don't feel cheated and stolen from when a marketing company guises up a crap product, then, I guess capitolism loves you. Unless you have ESP, there's no way to know if something is "good" until you experience it yourself.
Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal. :dizzy:
You haven't read a single word of what I wrote today.
And if you don't feel cheated and stolen from when a marketing company guises up a crap product, then, I guess capitolism loves you. Unless you have ESP, there's no way to know if something is "good" until you experience it yourself.
Oh, believe me. I read every word. And no, I'm not happy if I buy a crappy product, but I do take responsibility for my choices, and part of making a choice like that is finding out what kind of return policy there is, and then deciding if it's worth the risk. We're getting way off topic though, so that's the last I have to say on the subject.
Ummon, any "emotion" involved relates to the sadness over how some of you spit in the face of people like Jeff, and most likely kill motivation for some to contribute cool new things to our community. Clearly, bringing that to your attention doesn't bother you. You've got what you want, everyone else be damned. So since this is just "spinning my wheels", I'm done. The end result for me is that I've pretty much lost respect for you (not that there's any particular reason you would/should care since I'm just a voice on the internet).
Cheffo, no. I covered and explained that. My point was that I'm not emotionally attached to the points in this topic (at the very least).
Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal. :dizzy:
"Your honor... I wasn't emotionally attached to the [enter whatever you wish here] that I stole, therefore I should not have been arrested or tried for said theft."
Ah... I see.
The only black and white truth is that ANY downloading of copywrited material is illegal, and if you've done it, you've got no right to sit here and tell someone that they've stepped over an imaginary line that you drew for yourself.
Well for one, it's against forum rules to post locations of roms.
The creators of all the old arcade games not only do not make money from those games, they more or less don't even care about us playing the games through MAME.
Oh, and just for good measure, I have every right to judge. I don't know where the notion that people don't have the right to judge the actions of others came from, but I'm perfectly free to say that an action is wrong.
I've not suggested Ummon (or anyone) need be charged with a crime... I simply said if he keeps the ROM he should step up and pay for it. I am guessing "reading comprehension" isn't your forte?
You are being so frustratingly short sighted. The only difference is that you are closer to Jeff and you can see a more direct effect that downloading has on him. How can you sum up the thousands of other game creators out there with one flippant statement? How the heck do you know what they think?
I've not suggested Ummon (or anyone) need be charged with a crime... I simply said if he keeps the ROM he should step up and pay for it. I am guessing "reading comprehension" isn't your forte?
Reading comprehension. Hilarious. And I'm sure you sent Shigeru Miyamoto (creator of all the old Nintendo games who IS still compensated when his company repackages and sells his old arcade games on new platforms) a kick back for each of his games you've downloaded. Or the countless other developers out there who you guys are lumping into the "don't care" category without any real basis for doing so.
I don't care about new and exciting platforms... I want a NEW IN BOX Nintendo Donkey Kong to put in my Nintendo Donkey Kong cabinet. I don't think a Wii version will work. Apples to Oranges.
You are being so frustratingly short sighted. The only difference is that you are closer to Jeff and you can see a more direct effect that downloading has on him. How can you sum up the thousands of other game creators out there with one flippant statement? How the heck do you know what they think?
Oh, and just for good measure, I have every right to judge. I don't know where the notion that people don't have the right to judge the actions of others came from, but I'm perfectly free to say that an action is wrong.
Really? Honestly? When you were a kid, did your mother teach you to sit on the top of the hill outside your house and point at everyone that walked by and describe to them everything that was wrong with how they were living their lives? This is really a suitable way to conduct yourself in your opinion? You have no legal basis for your judgments (at least, no basis that isn't 100% hypocritical). These are morally grey areas in which you have no right to tell someone that they are wrong based on a justification you have made for your own life.
But Ummon has stated that he doesn't see the need to pay for it, and I'm perfectly free to say why I think that's wrong.
Sorry for not saying that it's OK to steal. :dizzy:
Nintendo, Namco, and other publishers are still trying to make money off these old games just the same as Jeff is.
isu: dude, whoa. People have various ways of feeling about all kinds of things. And they'll say all kinds of things about them. Let them. It usually helps. If they're being particularly nasty, casually let them know. No one's being nasty here.
Shan, yeah, publishers are releasing their old games all the time, usually using some verison of MAME to run them. Namco and Williams release museum collections for every generation of consoles.Really? You know that they are, in fact, using MAME in the products they are selling?
Really? You know that they are, in fact, using MAME in the products they are selling?
Forgive me, this is a bit off topic. ...
on board eight, does he crawl back up if you don't jump on him??
Bought a DK from Frizz a few weeks ago, and just got my D2K multigame kit to pop in there on Monday. Hopefully tonight I'll have time to plug it in and play! 8)
Bought a DK from Frizz a few weeks ago, and just got my D2K multigame kit to pop in there on Monday. Hopefully tonight I'll have time to plug it in and play! 8)
Well, that brings to mind an interesting question. Should the new owner of a used set pay a donation?
Jack, I find your reasoning to be so utterly ridiculous (but hey, it does justify stealing it in your mind I'm sure), especially since Jeff got permission from Nintendo, that I don't even think your points merit response (not like it would add anything new to the debate anyway).
If somebody wanted to be a rebel and flout the ROM hacking communities rules, and fight for the right for their ROM hacks to be published then more power to them. I wish them success. But at the same time I also hope that they do not makes things worse than they already are.
I contradict myself here, but those are my feelings.
To be clear... Jeff did "not" get "permission" from Nintendo. Nintendo was/is aware of the project and unoffically indicated that they'd have no financial motivation to go after Jeff. A big difference.
After reading all this- I just have to ask-
Do all of you MAME users on this forum own the actual PCB for the ROM files you have crammed into your MAME machines?
And why do we actually give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about a rom hack? He didn't have permission from Nintendo! Period! I'm not paying him for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!
Is this anything like paying 100$ for a 60-1 jamma multigame board that is also manufactured without permission?
(cue the hurricane)
Yeah. Why are we bringing this up again? I think we all settled on agreeing to disagree. As Cheffo said, arguments on both sides of a pretty gray area.Cuz Mods didn't lock this thread like they should have.
After reading all this- I just have to ask-
Do all of you MAME users on this forum own the actual PCB for the ROM files you have crammed into your MAME machines?
And why do we actually give a ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about a rom hack? He didn't have permission from Nintendo! Period! I'm not paying him for ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!
Is this anything like paying 100$ for a 60-1 jamma multigame board that is also manufactured without permission?
(cue the hurricane)
(http://carlnet.no-ip.org/troll.gif)
Yeah. Why are we bringing this up again? I think we all settled on agreeing to disagree. As Cheffo said, arguments on both sides of a pretty gray area.Cuz Mods didn't lock this thread like they should have.
What's the inevitable result of this?
What's the inevitable result of this?
BACON!
(http://blogchef.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/crispy_bacon_1.jpg)