The NEW Build Your Own Arcade Controls

Main => Main Forum => Topic started by: seanwheels on December 09, 2004, 08:23:42 pm

Title: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: seanwheels on December 09, 2004, 08:23:42 pm
hello,Seanwheels here I am a quadriplegic I posted here a couple weeks back asking for information or assistance I am willing to pay someone for parts time and trouble of assisting me to build an arcade type controller for my Place station I can used arcade type joysticks and   I can use arcade type buttons. I have a Sony Play station until and the controllers are just too small for me to use them if I could build to a larger version proximal for 20 in. long by 9 in. wide the joysticks located approximately 8in from each side with two buttons of located on each side with 4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform before I was injured by was a fabricator and machinist for Titan motorcycle company before that I was a stage rigger ido understand mechanics and if I had functional use of my hands I could build what I need  but if that was the case then I would not need 1  right if  any 1 of the members of this forum has the expertise that I need to complete this project I really would appreciate your assistance if I could do it myself I would unfortunately I'm kinda short on family and the maintenance man in the nursing-home and I am currently stuck in was not mechanically inclined enough to attach my play station to  my television. Seanwheels  Sean2U@ peoplepc.com
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SirPeale on December 09, 2004, 09:32:40 pm
Hi Sean!  Welcome to the board!

Post your location, perhaps someone nearby can help you with things you may need.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 09, 2004, 10:51:15 pm

Sean,

Welcome to the board!  I am going to see if I can sketch something based on your description to see if I understand what you are thinking about.  We're gonna get this sorted out.  It would help to know where you are located too.   
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 09, 2004, 11:56:40 pm
So working off this description,

"a larger version proximal for 20 in. long by 9 in. wide"

"the joysticks located approximately 8in from each side"

"two buttons of located on each side"

"4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick  -

in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform"

I threw something together with visio to see if this is what you are looking for or something similar.  Are you looking for something more like the PS2 controller itself?

I put in two different button layouts as I am having a hard time understanding, "...human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform"

Take a look and let me know what needs to be changed.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RayB on December 10, 2004, 11:30:42 am
May I suggest overlaying a GRID (1 inch squares) on top of your diagram, and then labelling each line across the top with letters (A, B, C...) then label the lines down the side with numbers (1, 2, 3...) This way Sean can more easily describe where parts need to be moved and how far.

~Ray B.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: boesiii on December 10, 2004, 12:43:34 pm
I'd be willing to help out if needed.

Check out infogrip.com, they have a couple of different types of switches and buttons for this situation.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 12:54:42 pm
Good suggestion.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 01:17:41 pm
I also checked out x-arcade's site.  They have an adapter for $19 that will port the x-arcade products to PS2.

http://www.x-arcade.com/adapters.shtml

http://www.x-arcade.com/two-player.shtml

Not sure if the x-arcade layouts will be ok though.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 10, 2004, 01:29:23 pm
But there's no analog stick support on an X-Arcade is there? That makes it pretty well useless for most PS2 games. I think I have maybe one PS2 game that you can play without analog sticks.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 02:58:47 pm
But there's no analog stick support on an X-Arcade is there? That makes it pretty well useless for most PS2 games. I think I have maybe one PS2 game that you can play without analog sticks.

-S


Can you explain to me what the difference is?  I have always had a hard time understanding what exactly the analog issue is all about.  I suppose now is as good a time as any for some schooling.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SirPeale on December 10, 2004, 03:12:09 pm
Can you explain to me what the difference is?  I have always had a hard time understanding what exactly the analog issue is all about.  I suppose now is as good a time as any for some schooling.

A digital interface has an on/off approach, whereas an analog interface has a gradual approach.

If you play, say, Pole Position, and you use a digital pad to steer left, the wheel will be *hard* left, and you'll cut off the road.  With an analog control, you can use either a little or a lot of force to steer.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 10, 2004, 03:15:21 pm
Which of course brings us to the inevitable question, are there any arcade size analog sticks that can be used in place of the analog sticks on a PS2 controler for a project of this kind? Unless I'm mistaken, the only sticks out there that might work are pretty expensive. Has anyone actually done this?

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 03:58:22 pm
I found this link to a ps2 - > arcade controller hack.  I assumed if I were to build a controller I would have to sacrifice a couple ps2 controllers.  Take a look and let me know what you think. 

http://wrongcrowd.com/arcade/joystickp1.shtml

Don't forget to look at the title of the page that came up.  I did a double-take when I first found the article... ::)


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 04:01:26 pm
Also, check this out.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: locash on December 10, 2004, 04:36:10 pm
I think the controller you found is a 2 player controller.  Unless I am mistaken, the controller seanwheels is looking for has 2 joysticks for 1 player.

I don't know much about analog controls, but can someone explain how they could be emulated digitally?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 10, 2004, 04:52:36 pm
I believe this person has limited gross motor skills in his arms but not fine motor controls, if I am recalling correctly.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Shape D. on December 10, 2004, 05:17:16 pm
Not to seem rude
Last I checked, I had thought it was rude to call someone a liar, and rip on the guy saying he's "pretending to be paralyzed" just to get a controller to use for his ps2.  Just to check where would he get a controller for this, sony? Sony could most likley care less about any of their customers, including those with special needs. So it seems the most obvious place to go for help with this would be.........
THE BUILD YOUR OWN ARCADE CONTROLS WEBSITE!

Not cool man, Not cool.

<edit> Sorry had to add additional venting. <edit>
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: mozzer on December 10, 2004, 05:53:07 pm
Quote
I apologize for this letter ahead of time, I just want the writer to realize that he doesnt need to pretend to be a quadreplegic to get people to help him, and to do something like that is just wrong.


You're going to feel like such an ass if he calls you out. Actually you should allready feel that way
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 06:26:20 pm

I'm in the xmas spirit and am taking Sean at his word, but I do understand your concern.  Some quick homework tells me his classification, from an earlier post, indicates he has a more advanced range of motor abilities than you might think.


(Earlier Post) ----

/ Consoles / controller for quadriplegic  on: November 24, 2004, 01:48:18 AM 

hello, my name is Sean McCloskey.  I am a C-5-6 incomplete quadriplegic I recently purchased a Sony Play Station2 unfortunately I cannot use the controller successfully I have use of my Arms and limited use of my hands I do not have fine motor control needed to push the buttons and use the joysticks simultaneously do you know of a comptroller I can use so that I may game successfully thank you for any help or suggestions you may have . Sean McCloskey- Sean2U@peoplepc.com

(End Earlier Post) ----



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More on motor skills of someone classified as a 'C-5-6 incomplete quadriplegic '
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http://www.asia-spinalinjury.org/publications/index.html

ASIA Impairment Scale

The ASIA Impairment Scale uses the findings from the neurological examination to categorize injury types into specific categories. These categories allow researchers to identify the outcome of different injuries and degrees of spinal cord damage.

The following scale is used in grading the degree of impairment:

A = Complete. No sensory or motor function is preserved in the sacral segments S4-S5.
B =Incomplete. Sensory but not mr function is preserved below the neurological level and extends through the sacral segments S4-S5.
C = Incomplete. Motor function is preserved below the neurological level, and the majority of key muscles below the neurological level have a muscle grade less than 3.
D = Incomplete. Motor function is preserved below the neurological level, and the majority of key muscles below the neurological level have a muscle grade greater than or equal to 3.
E = Normal. Sensory and motor function are normal.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.spinalcord.org/html/factsheets/spin.php


The level of injury is very helpful in predicting what parts of the body might be affected by paralysis and loss of function. Remember that in incomplete injuries there will be some variation in these prognoses. Cervical (neck) injuries usually result in quadriplegia. Injuries above the C-4 level may require a ventilator for the person to breathe. C-5 injuries often result in shoulder and biceps control, but no control at the wrist or hand. C-6 injuries generally yield wrist control, but no hand function. Individuals with C-7 and T-1 injuries can straighten their arms but still may have dexterity problems with the hand and fingers.


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Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Will on December 10, 2004, 06:43:41 pm
Why would someone make this up Amra?The guy needs help because of his condition,he isnt looking for a handout and even offered to pay.Just because you know the difference between the word quad and pari doesnt make you an expert on his condition.He obviously likes to play video games but cannot because of the size of the ps2 controller.If I had the skills I would help build this for him.I personally would throw some money into a paypal account to help fund this project if it would help get it started.Just my 2 cents..
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Mameotron on December 10, 2004, 06:50:55 pm
Not to seem rude or anything, but what good would one of these systems do for a real quadraplegic?

Man, that was real harsh.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 10, 2004, 07:35:08 pm
Hey Sean. Welcome To The Board! I am in NY, and would be happy to help if I am near you.  It seems like alot of other people want to help too.  If for any reason you are uncomfortable with posting on the board, or you think it just might be easier, you can get an individuals email address by clicking on their name, (most anyway).  You already can see who wants to help.  I am sure the people that want to help would be happy to communicate with each other "off board" to help you if for any reason you think that might be easier.  I am also sure you can realize that some people are just used to getting scammed online.  There are alot of people that pretend to be something they are not. 



Steve
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 10, 2004, 07:53:21 pm
First off, Welcome to the board Sean!  Post when you can, you will be helping others here I guarantee it.  As you can see, most of us here are good folks willing to help where we can.  And the few insensitive idiots just don't matter, f'em!!
My son (a quadraplegic with cerebral palsy) loves to play videogames too.  We have had no success in finding an arcade joystick that fully emulates the PS/PS2 gamepad completely. 
The problem is that even when a stick is found that will emulate digital (the cross shaped control) and analog (the 2 dual joysticks) it will be a switchable type, single joystick.  Meaning that you can use either/or but not both at the same time, making it impossible to play most PS games that don't allow button customization for changing the movement, aiming controls etc. 
Get out a regular arcade stick and try to play Killzone and you'll see what I mean, forget it, doesn't work. 
A possible solution would require 3 sticks, 1 for the cross-shaped digital pad, and 2 for the dual analog joysticks, in a similar configuration as the PS2 pad pictured in a previous post.  But on a larger scale and including all the other buttons for the r1, r2, l1, l2, start, select etc., making it easier for a person who has difficulty using small, closely placed buttons due to a disability.
BTW, I wrote Sony regarding the possibility of adapting controllers or supporting games that support better configuration options.  Got a form letter back stating essentially that any unsolicited ideas submitted to Sony would then become their property, implying that they would use them without compensation or consideration.  Pretty much a corporate FU.
Much respect to those here who are looking to find solutions for this man, you will also help others, keep us in mind as this solution progresses.
LMK if I can be of assistance.
Also bear in mind that people who are disabled live on a very meager income, most times less than $600 a month, most all of it going for living expenses.  So expensive solutions may not be easy for Sean, help out as you see fit.
ARCADIAC!

Sidenote to AMRA:  I've never called out anyone on this board for their comments before but your mean-spirited, ignorant remarks are by far the most offensive that I have ever seen here, bar none.  Amra, keep in mind that being disabled is a minority that ANYONE can join at anytime through no fault of their own. Keep your prejudice and assumptions to yourself, your offensive comments were totally uncalled for.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 10, 2004, 08:49:37 pm
If someone can build a solution that will help Sean, I will fork out up to $100 towards expenses. The caveat is you have to document it so we can help the next person in this situation.

--- saint
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 10, 2004, 08:51:21 pm
Quote
keep in mind that being disabled is a minority that ANYONE can join at anytime through no fault of their own.

Wise Words...
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: mmmPeanutButter on December 10, 2004, 09:07:27 pm
If someone can build a solution that will help Sean, I will fork out up to $100 towards expenses.
--- saint

I guess that's why they call you saint.   :angel:
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 10, 2004, 09:13:38 pm
This might be a shot in the dark, but I can see this in my mind, and it might work.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 09:20:17 pm


Regarding the analog issue, it sounds as if we just need an arcade style or at least size analog joystick to hack to the ps/2 controller.  What about PC joysticks?  What do the Jakks games use?  Analog?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 10, 2004, 09:22:29 pm
Sean, I'm in Oklahoma. If by any chance you live here or even in an adjacent state feel free to email me at stingrayg4@gmail.com and we can talk about options for game controls that I might be able to build for you. I don't know if I can build you a PS2 controller or not. Considering that no one replied to my query quoted below regarding analog sticks I'd guess that I can't.


Which of course brings us to the inevitable question, are there any arcade size analog sticks that can be used in place of the analog sticks on a PS2 controler for a project of this kind? Unless I'm mistaken, the only sticks out there that might work are pretty expensive. Has anyone actually done this?


However having said that, if you're interested in having a controller that will work with a game system that doesn't use analog controls (pretty much anything before the N64/ PSX era)I'd be willing to build one for you on the house based on your particular needs.

I'd even be willing to build you a MAME system, but since those can get a bit expensive I'd probably need a some financial backing on that.

On the subject of financial backing, if anyone does know of a way to build the PS2 controller that Sean was origianally inquiring about I'd be more than willing to throw some money in that pot.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 10, 2004, 09:23:00 pm
This might be a shot in the dark, but I can see this in my mind, and it might work.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on December 10, 2004, 11:10:09 pm
First of all Sean welcome to the boards.

Second Saint can we get Amras message deleted. The more times I go through this Post the madder I get.
**edit**

Thank you mods.

Amra I don't know how old you are or what your thinking making that post.  But all respect is lost.  The guy said he would pay for it. I don't know what kind of hand outs your thinking of but I see this community building things for its members all the time(for money and mostly not for money) the ideas that people have and share on this board is amazing not counting all the time it takes them to work on them and then just give them away.  I feel sad for you man really sad, it hurts.
<venting done>

To the real issue on hand

Saint I'm with you Ill give money if needed.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 11, 2004, 01:49:51 am
The Dreamcast Alloy Arcade stick is essentially the same as this version for PS/PS2:
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on December 11, 2004, 02:11:02 am
I kind of figured the stick wouldnt work in one of the reviews I was reading it said it was an analog digital 8-way(which doesnt make since to me). What about AUTO FIRE?  Would that be useful?  Also about the track ball for the second joystick since most games that use the second joystick are for looking around.  I didnt even think about durablity its not really a major issue as long as you know it has to be dealt with.  You could just make sure that when you cut the holes for the joystick that they are exactly the radius of the limits of the joystick and the base is very firmly attached.  So if such an occurance does take place the joystick has the wood to help stop and take some of the pressure off of the base of the joystick.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: seanwheels on December 11, 2004, 04:32:43 am
hello everyone THANK YOU for the many varied responses while I did not expect to be taken at face value I did not expect to be accused of being a liar since I did not have he opportunity to read that particular post but as I have read every one else's posts I get the gist of the accusation. Here is my response

I am the 35 year-old man currently residing in a nursing home. I have broken my neck Not once but 3 times in the last 4 years. My 1st accident was December 2nd of 1999 on my way home from work I rolled my vehicle I fell asleep at the wheel 27 days later I awoke and hospital with 3 of My x girls friends were standing around I' tried to get out of bed to go work on my motorcycle funny, on waking all I wanted to do was to go work, motorcycle I didn't realize I was paralyzed the doctor came in and I was told I would never walk again.

While being transferred in the hospital I was dropped while I still had my halo on and my neck rebroken at that point I lost the fine motor skills in my left hand I was then transferred to  good Samaritan Hospital here in Phoenix Arizona for the remainder of my physical therapy. June 6 2002 my caregiver spent most of the the day packing my belongings and loading them into my van I had acquired a old 1 ton Chevy  Pathfinder van and 1 of my buddies got me a lift to put on it.It was late in the evening but my caregiver said she was a good to drive so we sat out for Glendale Arizona so I could start going to college. 

Well we made it as far as Happy Valley Road she fell asleep I realized this as we hit another vehicle.  The driver was ejected on the 1st roll through the windshield she hit the side of the road in brokeher pinky and hit her head I rolled another 600 ft. with everything that I own was in the van .because I had been mechanic/fabricator the things  I owned were heavy and steel my floor safe and 16  HP Briggs Stratton were laying next to me on the floor then I had a Wankle( rotary) motor laying by my legs on the floor. 

After the accident 4 truckdrivers stop and they said they heard me screaming get me out from inside the burning vehicle I don't remember none of this but I do have the police report and they dug their way into my wreck and pulled out my body thus saving my life.  as the vehicle burned to the ground I awoke in John C. Lincoln Hospital approximately 30 days later from the coma my neck wasbroken at C 123 and 4

the doctor went in operated on it but didn't believe I was going to live so he didn't bother putting a halo on me my skull was broken in the front and back  both eyesockets broke and had to reattach my nose to my face along with 1 of my Ears along with the ribs on the left side my body and my left ankle the doctor did go ahead and pull pins in my left ankle at least he was an optimist.

you would think this would be the end it but 6 months ago I was living in apartments by myself with a caregiver that would come and visit me every day to give me what I needed.  I unfortunately developed a bed sore and needed to be transported to the wound clinic for treatment.  The ambulance driver came to pick me up 1 day and on the way to the ambulance pushed my stretcher over and-bashed my head in causing the nerves and my neck to swell and causing my upper body to be completely paralyzed for about a week I spent the next 4 months in Mesa in banner desert TCU getting physical therapy. 

Now I am in a nursing home working on getting myself out of here at age 35 I feel I'm too young to spend my life in a nursing home unfortunately the state of Arizona feels otherwise as far as income is concerned my Social Security is taking away from me and they give me al lowance of $30.00 a month to live on.  So I will not turn away anyone who feels out to sending a few dollars to a trust fund for this project but asking for a handout was not my objective . 

The name of the nursing home .i live-in is called Desert sky it is located at **** ******* ******* **** I know you can get a copy of the above mentioned accident reports from the Arizona Department of Public Safety as well as 8x10 color glossies I have not been able to afford the pictures of the accidents so after u check them  out  I would appreciate it if you could send me a few copies. 

Thank you for your support everyone and l will try to answer the responses as I go down the list.  as to the allegations if if you feel my response is a all loan or hard to believe I believe all the facts are on public record.  Thank you Sean


Edit: added paragraphs for easier reading

Edit: Address removed
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Pacific Ripper on December 11, 2004, 05:08:20 am
Sorry to hear about your accident and the situation that you are in. I don't know if you believe in God, but you will have a prayer from me. I'm sure I am not the only one who'll do that around here. I'll send something your way - I don't know if it'll help because I know it may not be enough as consolation for your predicament.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 11, 2004, 11:38:28 am
Hey Sean.  As you can see, alot of people want to help.  BUt we all need to know a little about what you want built.  I don't think we understood your first post describing the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform.  We also might have some good suggestions if we knew exactly what motor control you have.  Any particular games you are looking to use this for, that might make some slight differences, (possibly).  I really hope someone here can make something that works for you. 

Steve
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: dweebs0r on December 11, 2004, 12:04:17 pm
Ok folks, heres the deal.  We have an idea to build a controller.  We have $100.00 (from Saint).  Now we need someone with the skills to step forward:

Number one:

someone needs to step forward and say the have the skills and the time to do this

Number two:

that same person should set aside a paypal account for donations towards this project (its Christmas time people time to give!)

Number three:

although I dont have skills with a woodsaw, I can effectively manipulate HTML  :)
so whoever builds the project, if they take pictures, and document on paper or whatever, I can happily create the webpage documentation that saint requested.  I will also donate some cash to the project

So, who here can build it?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 11, 2004, 12:21:04 pm
I think first we more detailed information from sean.  I was not the only one that didn't understand the hand on edge thing.  This has to be perfectly suited to his needs.  It has to have the same measurements as his hand and fingers.  It needs to be funtional, and comfortable.  Throwing something together with out enough of the correct information to help- might not help at all.  Without knowing exactly what he needs, we don't know exactly what skills we need.  I am sure there are hundreds of people here that can drill holes in a flat panel.  That might not be what best works here.  Please read my above post about my idea.  I think that might be what we need here.  If sean agrees that is a whole new set of skills.  I took an empty mouse I have and slapped it on a joystick handle, it seemed like it might be enough.  Maybe not.  Perhaps I can carve something more accurate out of wood.  Maybe we something no one has thought of yet.  But we wont know without more details from sean.  And I think that if something was thrown together without those details and sent to him, that he might not have the heart to say "sorry, I can't use it, try another one".

Steve
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Oddfeld on December 11, 2004, 12:38:28 pm
...with 4 buttons located on each side of each Joy stick in a pattern similar to the human hand standing on edge on top of the joystick platform

I wonder if Sean means that it would be uncomfortable or not possible, due to limited wrist movement or whatever, to rest his hands flat on the control panel to hit the horizontally oriented buttons that would be on a typical CP, or to keep swapping back and forth from this hand position to holding the joystick.

So the placement of the buttons should accomodate the fact that his hand will be resting on it's side on top of the panel (as when gripping the joysticks) - the buttons would therefore be oriented vertically on some sort of raised section of the panel behind the sticks,  Imagine gripping a joystick,  then releasing it and extending your fingers -  not turning your wrist 90 degrees afterwards to rest your fingers on the control panel - that's where I think he wants the buttons.

Or I could be way off...

I have the DIY skills of a house brick, incidentally, plus I'm several thousand miles away,  but I'd happily make a paypal donation or whatever to the project, and  provide artworking skills (drawing up templates in Illustrator, making CPO graphics etc).


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 11, 2004, 12:49:53 pm
Let's get the design figured out first.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 11, 2004, 02:41:07 pm
Well, about all I can offer to this is maybe to help 1hookedspacecadet with Analog to digital and PS/2 controls.

Easy explanation - A PC joystick (Saitek, etc.) is analog - it uses potentiometers to sense movement.  An Arcade joystick (Happs), is digital.

Generally analog joysticks are okay for digital games, but digital joysticks suck for analog games.

Example - play Tiger-Heli, Pac-Man, or 1942 on a PC Joystick.  It works okay, even though the game is meant for a digital controller.

Play Star Wars or Sinistar or or Paperboy, or as Peale said Pole Position with a Happs stick on your arcade cab.  It doesn't work well, because the stick is either up or centered, not 2/3 of the way up.

The PS/2 controller has 4 shoulder buttons, a D-pad, two joysticks, and 4 game buttons, and a start and select button.  On the PS/2, the D-pad is digital, the two joysticks are normally analog (but I think can be switched to digital by a button) and the action and shoulder buttons are digital (I think).

Most games primarily use the left analog stick and the lower diamond button (the one with an X on it), but most also use the other buttons, right stick, shoulder buttons, etc. for more advanced controls.

I am not sure if you would need to swap/adjust the range of the pots or not, but it should be very possible to hook two PC joysticks into the pots for the PS/2 controller sticks.  This gives you the two analog joysticks.  (I'm not sure if you could also make them work digitally, but that shouldn't be a major concern.).  The buttons are just a matter of soldering leads from the PS/2 controller button contacts to arcade buttons.

Setting all of this up on a panel so that Sean can operate two joysticks and eight buttons simultaneously with the heels of his palms will take a lot of work, but I'm sure the members of this board are up to the challenge.

At this point, it would be helpful to know what types of games Sean wants to play and what controls he would be comfortable with.

Not to completely change the course of the discussion, but someone mentioned MAME -  This might be a better option - All it would take is something like the joystick that Stevejt (sp?) mentioned and some arcade buttons, and a $40 computer with TV out.

The reason I am suggesting this is two-fold - most MAME games are digital joysticks - ON-OFF means fine motor control is less necessary.  Many MAME games require much less controls and coordination -
Pac-Man, Q-bert - Joystick
TimePilot, Galaga, Galaxian, Gyruss - Joystick and one button
Robotron - Dual joysticks, no buttons.

You won't find MAME games that need two analog sticks and 8-12 buttons, and that's a good thing in this case.

And (probably with some donated parts), a MAME system could be done for under $100.  We'd need one of Paige's $30 computers, though.   For that matter, Sean mentioned ViaVoice and is posting here, so assuming he is using his computer and not a central one at the nursing home, he probably could be running MAME, if we just built a controller.

I'm assuming also that Sean would enjoy classic arcade games, but who wouldn't (besides my wife . . .)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RayB on December 11, 2004, 06:23:07 pm
Sean,
A couple months ago there was another user on here asking about building a controller for his friend who is in a wheelchair. Are you that friend, or is this a coincidence?

I was just thinking, if that guy was talking about you, it would help everyone if he returned to the board and helped coordinate all this, since he's one person who has first-hand experience with your abilities.

If not, we know at least one other person may benefit from whatever comes out of this...

~Ray B.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 11, 2004, 07:49:17 pm
Check this out -

http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=PL631

Pelican PL631 PS2 Arcade Fighter Fully Analog Joystick

Fully analog buttons
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 11, 2004, 07:51:21 pm
Another possible -

http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=22&products_id=1012

Arcade style Joystick
 
Vibration force feedback compatible
 
8 way direction control
 
Turbo function
 
Slow motion function
 
Supports the PS2
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 11, 2004, 07:53:36 pm
Not alot of info on this one but it looks promising -

http://www.research.co.jp/MindStorms/JoyBricx/index-e.html
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 11, 2004, 08:02:51 pm
More possibles -

http://www.lik-sang.com/list.php?category=22&start=0&
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 12, 2004, 02:17:34 am
Good news, the Pelican stick is analog, Kev has the Universal model pl-950

http://www.pelicanperformance.com/index2.html

It functions as the left analog stick,I tried it myself on Killzone, could move forward, back, and strafe left and right just like the PS2 left stick.  But could not turn or look up and down as that would be a right analog stick function, however, could use the buttons to look up/down and left/right, somewhat unwieldy because one of the button is used for reloading and another for changing weapons.  I'm relearning a bit about the difficulties my son has playing games here too, Killzone sucks trying to play this way!

A D-pad and 2 of these may go far towards the solution.

Also see Reply # 17:
 http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=10%3baction=display%3bthreadid=17788

The Interact Pro Mini Arcade Stick functions basically the same, it appears that the Hais stick is very similar to this one.

A bonus is that both of these stick are already arcade style, so trying to adapt the stubby PS2 style analogs won't be necessary.

We have tried most of the available US options so please before throwing money at this project (I have done this for you already, looking for solution for my son Kev, believe it!), contact me and see if we have tried or have on hand the stick/solutions suggested. 
I will read the thread daily and will chime in when needed, anything to help.

I have available 1 used Universal PL-950 and also 1 near-mint Pro Mini to donate/send to whoever will be taking on the actual task of building and testing designs for Sean's joystick.     

We may also consider the trackball idea for analog #2, it may work just fine.
Or the ps2 keyboards that have analog sticks on both sides.

All we need is someone(s)? with the skills, trustworthiness, time, ability and oh yeah a PS2 to step up and help out.  And that's a lot to ask but if any group of people can get it done, I believe we can!

Look at all that has been proposed in less than a week, WOW!
Keep it up, ya'all are the best!

Hang in there Sean, you got a lot of great people here working for you!

Thanks again all, ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Layer01 on December 12, 2004, 02:41:46 am
i dont even know if this is what your looking for ( i dont have time to read all the posts) but here's the link anyway:
http://www.lik-sang.com/info.php?category=22&products_id=4508

maybe it can help :)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 12, 2004, 06:51:22 am
Another shot based on Sean's comments.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: stevejt on December 12, 2004, 08:48:42 am
With reguards to the last pics:  Sean said he used the butt of his palm to hit buttons, also said he wanted his hand in a vertical position.  What is you took the above layout, but in stead of the butons being vertical,(when looking down from above), make them horizontal.  That way he could have his hand vertical and use the edge if ir to hit individual buttons.  Right now with his hand vertical, he would be hitting all of them at once.

Another thing:  he said he can hold a joystick with his palm and thumb.  What about a flight stick?  3 or so buttons AND a hat switch.  The hat could be wired as the digital pad, or just as buttons.

Steve
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 12, 2004, 09:37:31 am
With reguards to the last pics:
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 12, 2004, 11:02:01 am
Looking real good 1hookedspacecadet.  Keep in mind though that the PS2 controller will need a stick for the d-pad itself, many in-game choices are made with it during gameplay.  I'm curious, 5 admin buttons?  What functions will they represent?   Keep up the good work, very generous of you to spend so much time towards this project.  Thank You, ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 12, 2004, 11:14:09 am
Looking real good 1hookedspacecadet.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 12, 2004, 11:45:25 am
"Ok, so that's what sean meant by a third joystick.  That would be to take over the inputs of the 4 buttons on the left of the game pad correct?" 

Exactly, and many fps shooters use r1, right top button, for primary firing, r2 for secondary.  Fortunately some games allow for reprogramming, so changing the functions around may be possible depending on the game.  FYI, flightsticks that we have tried have a very different, long kind of throw to them than regular joysticks/pads.  Kev tried them as substitute and they don't work very well.
Of course Sean's needs may be different, but I still think you are definitely on the right track.
ARCADIAC!   
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 12, 2004, 11:49:06 am
"Ok, so that's what sean meant by a third joystick.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Oddfeld on December 12, 2004, 12:24:36 pm
I still don't think you're getting this vertical button thing - from Sean's description, I was envisaging something more like this:

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: seanwheels on December 12, 2004, 05:58:38 pm
hello, all right I appreciate the work you guys are putting into this you are really going to town.  I show and the Web site to 1 of the nurses here at desert sky and she was very impressed at everyone's willingness to help someone else and this is really cool to document everything  so that the next guy in my shoes can be helped out too.  I use yahoo Messanger for instant messagesmy address is zzzis4me@yahoo.comI like the way you have laid out the butttons guess I was wrong about the vertical idea space down in a semi circumference with each joystick being the centerI will get a nurse to measure my hand for me what I was saying 3:00 to 7:00 and maybe have each  joystick  a little farther apart and have the buttons  well spaced  otherwise i will hit more than 1 at a time-I was also taking that some sort of beanbag type surface to the bottom of that because it will be sitting in my lap thank you for the positive  posts and everything you are doing to help me out with this project
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Knoxximus on December 13, 2004, 01:01:39 am
Man I wish I had skills....but I do have that PS1 analog flight controller I'm willing to donate if it'll help.....
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 13, 2004, 07:37:31 am
Just to keep everyone in the loop, SeaMonkey is going to setup a time to go see Sean so we can nail the layout in person.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: HaRuMaN on December 13, 2004, 08:10:26 am
I don't have anything to offer you guys right now, but I just have to say that what you all are doing is awesome.  It makes me happy to see fellow BYOACers helping out someone in need!

Keep up the great work!   :D
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 13, 2004, 09:57:07 am
Not alot of info on this one but it looks promising -

http://www.research.co.jp/MindStorms/JoyBricx/index-e.html

I have one of these and it does have analog sticks. However for whatever reason the analog sticks don't work with PS2 games. I assume the pots in the controllers are different. If anyone thinks that it can be adapted, I'll be happy to donate it to the cause.

Something else that I don't think has been considered yet. PS2 buttons are also analog. While I guess we could get away with digital arcade buttons it may make a difference in some games. Just throwing that out there for those who know more about this stuff than I do to consider.

Still willing to donate money to the project, as soon as someone posts a paypal address to send it to.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 13, 2004, 10:51:01 am
Not alot of info on this one but it looks promising -

http://www.research.co.jp/MindStorms/JoyBricx/index-e.html

I have one of these and it does have analog sticks. However for whatever reason the analog sticks don't work with PS2 games. I assume the pots in the controllers are different. If anyone thinks that it can be adapted, I'll be happy to donate it to the cause.

Something else that I don't think has been considered yet. PS2 buttons are also analog. While I guess we could get away with digital arcade buttons it may make a difference in some games. Just throwing that out there for those who know more about this stuff than I do to consider.

Still willing to donate money to the project, as soon as someone posts a paypal address to send it to.

-S

Now that is disheartening.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 13, 2004, 11:22:55 am
No, it's an official Sony controller. It works with PS1, and you can plug it into the PS2. The buttons work, as does the little switch that stands in place of the direction pad, however the analog sticks do nothing. It works fine on a PS1 on games that support analog controls. As I said, the only thing I can think of is that maybe PS1 analog sticks use a different pot than PS2 analog sticks.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Amra on December 13, 2004, 12:39:23 pm
For those who seemed so upset at my original words, I would like to point out two things.

First off, I have a brother who IS a quadriplegic and thus have a somewhat more intimate knowledge of what it truly is to be quadriplegic then most people on this site.

So everyone will know, a true quadriplegic is a person with absolutely NO motor function in their arms, NONE.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 13, 2004, 01:04:40 pm
Amra give it a rest man. Sean didn't come here looking for a handout. He came looking to pay someone to make a controller for him. He wasn't looking for a handout. The offers of free labor and funding donations were all offered voluntarily out of the kindness of the hearts of some of the members here.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: JThw8 on December 13, 2004, 01:27:15 pm
Check this out -

http://www.savinglots.com/lotprod.asp?item=PL631

Pelican PL631 PS2 Arcade Fighter Fully Analog Joystick

Fully analog buttons
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 13, 2004, 01:33:31 pm
All - I don't want this thread to turn into a bash session, if anyone is looking to do so, please start a new thread.

That said, let me try to reply to Amra as I think we just have a definitional issue happening here:

Amra, first let me say my heart goes out to your brother and your family.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Amra on December 13, 2004, 01:39:42 pm
1hookedspacecadet you are quite right, and I know many "incomplete" Quadralegics, as there are many that are in therapy, but there is one thing that is similar in all of them, their upper body use is extremely limited, and most lack the dexterity to even write their name, much less type on a computer.  If they have attained more then a certain amount of dexterity they are no longer classified as "incomplete" quadraplegics, and 'upgraded' to paraplegia.

Even with my knowledge, I am certainly no doctor, and yes, perhaps I was a bit harsh, but when I think of a quadriplegic, the first image that pops into my head is my brother, who cant even feed himself, much less play video games.  And none of the "incomplete" Quadriplegics I know can type, or play video games, but again my knowledge is based on my own experiences.

Thank you for the post 1hookedspacecadet.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 13, 2004, 01:40:53 pm
>Im not saying he is looking for a handout, Im simply asking that he use the correct >terminology, because people who DO have intimate knowledge of that affliction DO >take offence.  Which is why I took offence.

Okay, maybe the thread title should have been "Controller for incomplete quadriplegic", but for the majority of the board, that wouldn't have been any clearer, plus he has to use voice recognition software to post to the forum, so I'm willing to cut him some slack.

>so why even mention the disability if for no other reason then to gain sympathy?

Because otherwise he would get a bunch of replies saying "I like the dual Shock, or the Pelican, etc."
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 13, 2004, 01:44:00 pm
And none of the "incomplete" Quadriplegics I know can type, or play video games, but again my knowledge is based on my own experiences.
Thank you for the post 1hookedspacecadet.
He never claimed he could type.  If you read the thread, he mentions ViaVoice, which is IBM voice-recognition software.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: shawnzilla on December 13, 2004, 02:01:00 pm
I would also be happy to donate a little cash to help this controller become a reality for Sean.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 13, 2004, 03:20:52 pm
To Shawnzilla and everyone else who has offered equipment, funds, resources, etc.  I have noted them though I have not had time to reply to the offers. 

I am taking this one step at a time, first step being to get the layout correct, SeaMonkey's visit with Sean should get us there pretty quick. 

Then I plan to (hopefully with everyone's help) take a hard look at the technical challenges based on the layout.  I think the biggest one is going to be the joysticks.  Not only choosing them and getting them wired to work, but also mounting them. 

After that I think we will have enough of a gameplan together to see what devices and equipment would be applicable and if any funds are needed, we can determine that as well.  So hang tight, keep the offers comming in, and we'll get there!

P.S. The same goes with all of the technical discussions and suggestions to date, I have not been replying to them though I am reading them and keeping them in mind as we move forward, please keep 'em comming in!





Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: dweebs0r on December 13, 2004, 03:38:33 pm
Saint never replied as to if he can be "the banker" of sorts and take paypal donations.  I'm thinking if everyone here donated at least 5 or 10 bucks each we could get Sean built something that'd be pretty nice.

Happy holidays, folks!

--Dweebs

Edit:

Thanks Saint! 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 13, 2004, 03:39:29 pm
Sorry it took so long for me to reply. Yes, I am willing to be the treasurer for this if so desired. I want to give a big thanks to everyone who is tackling this, I think this clearly falls under the category of a "good thing" and to me, truly represents the spirit of the Internet and what BYOAC was started for (as a way of giving back to the Internet community).

Big props to 1hookedspacecadet and everyone else (forgive me, I'm at work and doing this in a rush) for moving this along!

--- saint
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 13, 2004, 04:11:45 pm
Sorry it took so long for me to reply. Yes, I am willing to be the treasurer for this if so desired.

I think you're certainly trustworty enough. As soon as you post a paypal address I'll make a donation.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Mameotron on December 13, 2004, 06:07:11 pm
Wow!!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Jabba on December 13, 2004, 06:45:49 pm
I have no arcade parts laying around that can be used for this project (other than a few buttons), so I'm offering to send money for this project. I know that this is going to a good cause.

Someone here should document this project for the next person in this situation. I could certainly help out in this area as I do tend to write a lot of technical documentation.

Good work to all who have replied. Seems as thought the Christmas Spirit is certainly alive and well at BYOAC!

Regards,

Garry
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 13, 2004, 08:59:02 pm
Couple of things I want to throw out:

1. Just to give credit where credit is due -- BYOAC ads and donations bring in enough money right now to pay for the costs of hosting, and a little bit left over as well. The extra money so far has gone towards some of the books and tokens that have been given out, and also the $100 pledge towards this project. Everyone who has ever clicked an ad or donated or otherwise contributed to the site is due thanks for helping out here. :)

2. I am willing to take donations for this project right now. PayPal payments can be made to saint@arcadecontrols.com, or you can click the link below. If this falls through, any donated funds will be returned. However, bear in mind PayPal will take a bite out of it going both directions. If you'd prefer, you can simply post a pledge amount instead, payable only when the project actually moves forward. Either way.

Donate to Sean's new arcade controller (http://www.arcadecontrols.com/donate-to-sean.shtml)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Alpha17X on December 13, 2004, 10:53:10 pm
-Sean has a disability.
-Sean can't use normal controls.
-Sean has requested help here because people here could build controls he could use.

Sean has stated that he is paying for time and supplies

THE END.

This is a primarily civil board. what's your issue?  My brother has a similar problem to Sean here. I'm really looking forward to what comes out of this so we can finally do something together again. Well something we used to do, so stop being jerks, those who are being jerks.

The level of patients  (sp?) in the admin and mods here is absolutely amazing. I would have site banned certain people a while ago.
Title: SeanWheels Controller - Updated Design Pics
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 01:32:56 am
Sorry all, no list of issues.
Title: More new pics
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 01:35:32 am
.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 14, 2004, 09:34:54 am
Okay, I've made a donation, I'd like to encourage others to show their holiday spirit & do the same.

I'm trying to get a handle on the design work you've done so far 1hookedspacecadet.
 
On the right, I assume the red balltop would be the right analog stick and the three blue buttons are triangle, circle, square and X.

The three small white buttons on the top left, are those the pause, select & analog buttons?

What do the buttons on the top fire stick, and the small red button next to it do?

If the blue buttons on the side are R1, R2, L1 & L2, maybe their positioning should be reconsidered. A lot of PS2 games require them to be pressed at the same time as using on of the sticks or pushing one of the symbol buttons. I think they may be a little too far out of reach where they are now. Just a thought.

Well done on doing all of this design work.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 09:47:45 am
Ok, so I need to make this quick, but here is some explanation about my thought process on the new design.


1. Made the top of the cp more or less flush with the base in order to make it easier to get to the shoulder buttons.

2. Not pictured, but I still have the "beanbag" Sean talked about in mind.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RayB on December 14, 2004, 10:41:11 am
Those angled "arm" buttons. --brilliant!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 11:03:44 am
Those angled "arm" buttons. --brilliant!


They really are and they speak to the power of this board.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 14, 2004, 11:27:53 am
Those angled "arm" buttons. --brilliant!


I agree, that's an outstanding solution.

I'm still unclear on what you mean by the top fire button and the button next to the left stick emulate the d-pad. Do you mean that when pressed the left analog stick functions as the d-pad? Depending on Sean's ability to use it, that's good idea from a design standpoint. From a technical standpoint, though, how do you plan to make this work? How will the same stick function as both an analog stick and a digital stick? I'm not putting down the idea at all, I'm just unclear on how that could be done.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 14, 2004, 11:38:35 am
NICE! yeah that angled arm button idea is fantastic.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 11:39:37 am
Those angled "arm" buttons. --brilliant!


I agree, that's an outstanding solution.

I'm still unclear on what you mean by the top fire button and the button next to the left stick emulate the d-pad. Do you mean that when pressed the left analog stick functions as the d-pad? Depending on Sean's ability to use it, that's good idea from a design standpoint. From a technical standpoint, though, how do you plan to make this work? How will the same stick function as both an analog stick and a digital stick? I'm not putting down the idea at all, I'm just unclear on how that could be done.

-S

The hat-switch is essentially a little joystick in its own right.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Oddfeld on December 14, 2004, 11:42:56 am
Quote from: Stingray link=topic=28718.msg241671#msg241671
I'm still unclear on what you mean by the top fire button and the button next to the left stick emulate the d-pad. Do you mean that when pressed the left analog stick functions as the d-pad? Depending on Sean's ability to use it, that's good idea from a design standpoint. From a technical standpoint, though, how do you plan to make this work? How will the same stick function as both an analog stick and a digital stick? I'm not putting down the idea at all, I'm just unclear on how that could be done.

I was just picking up on something stevejt suggested, that is hacking a PC/Playstation flight stick, which often have a HAT switch on the top, a 4-way rocker switch that you move with your thumb while gripping the sitck. How it would work from a technical standpoint is that these things have digital switches built into the top already, which are wired seperately (the analog joystick will be using a couple of pots in the joystick base or something).

How good a solution that is obviously depends on how much movement Sean has in his thumbs...
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 14, 2004, 11:49:28 am
The hat-switch is essentially a little joystick in its own right.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 14, 2004, 12:23:45 pm
FYI, R1 and R2 are frequently used for fire buttons, they may need to be moved to the topside of the CP, within reach of the joysticks, possibly near wherever the x button will be.

Also consider my previous posts, flightsticks have a very different, longer throw to them, they will NOT be equal to the analog stick on the right side, they're just not designed to work the same way.

Since the pelican sticks already are analog sticks, why not use them instead of an arcade stick?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Jabba on December 14, 2004, 12:31:44 pm
Its looking real good so far guys...

Just a thought, has anyone considered something like a virtual reality glove for this project. I'm sure one could be built and could control mame but not sure how easily it could be used.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 01:06:37 pm
FYI, R1 and R2 are frequently used for fire buttons, they may need to be moved to the topside of the CP, within reach of the joysticks, possibly near wherever the x button will be.


Noted

Quote

Also consider my previous posts, flightsticks have a very different, longer throw to them, they will NOT be equal to the analog stick on the right side, they're just not designed to work the same way.



Since the pelican sticks already are analog sticks, why not use them instead of an arcade stick?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 14, 2004, 01:46:36 pm
For the record, donations stand at $225 presently!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 14, 2004, 01:50:28 pm
For the record, donations stand at $225 presently!

That's fanstastic!

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 02:12:43 pm
Re: Donations - Wow, great stuff guys.  Very cool.

In other news, I got a note from Sean and he likes the wrist controllers, but the thumb controlled hat switch is a no go due to the fact that he does not have control over his thumbs.  (For what it's worth Sean, neither do I...and sometimes I feel like I have 10 of 'em!)

Tonight I will update the design pics with the left controls consisting of two ball-top joysticks, one for the left analog stick, the other for the dpad. 

I think we are getting pretty close, though I will post some more ideas on the shoulder buttons after I get a chance to reread the info posted about the functions and uses etc.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 09:09:34 pm
Something to keep in mind that I found here:

http://wrongcrowd.com/arcade/joystickp1.shtml

and here

http://wrongcrowd.com/arcade/sony.shtml

"The PCB in the Sony pad is very hard to work with. At first glance, it looks like it should work fine, but the black traces (indicated with the red arrow) are made out of some strange material that solder won't stick to."


"Why not sacrifice a Sony controller? Good question. This is what I did at first, since I didn't like the way the Sony D-pad feels. The problem is that the PCB in the Sony pad is very, very delicate. There are no nice big patches of solder to connect your wires to, and it's easy to damage the board. Pull a little too hard on a soldered-on wire and you can pull a patch of solder right off the PCB, which can also break the trace underneath - and that can be fatal. In contrast, the Mad Katz and High Frequency pads (which seem to be nearly if not completely identical inside) have huge tracts of copper and solder on the PCB, making them very easy to work with. Illustrative photos are available. "
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 10:27:13 pm
In a couple of posts there is talk about an "auto fire" button.  Any ideas on how to accomplish that?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 14, 2004, 10:39:33 pm
FYI, R1 and R2 are frequently used for fire buttons, they may need to be moved to the topside of the CP, within reach of the joysticks, possibly near wherever the x button will be.

Arcadiac - R1 and R2 are the right shoulder buttons correct?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: HaRuMaN on December 14, 2004, 11:38:10 pm

Arcadiac - R1 and R2 are the right shoulder buttons correct?

Yes they are.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 15, 2004, 12:10:20 am
Sorry about Snapfish images, bad idea.
Here are direct links to where I've uploaded the pix:

http://www.geocities.com/harassler/PS2DualShockBasics1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/harassler/Unreal1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/harassler/Pelican1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/harassler/pelican2.jpg

I'll send 2 sticks and some other goodies out priority mail later today for seamonkey to take to Sean when he visits.  Thanks again all!  ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 07:20:37 am
Arcadiac's pics reminded me - the analog sticks also act as a button when pressed down, so we probably need to add two more buttons to the panel . . . .
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 09:15:48 am
Arcadiac's pics reminded me - the analog sticks also act as a button when pressed down, so we probably need to add two more buttons to the panel . . . .


Akkk...and they used to say Defender had too many buttons....what, are kids nowadays growing extra appendages?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 09:23:29 am
Akkk...and they used to say Defender had too many buttons....what, are kids nowadays growing extra appendages?  Cripes.
That's also why I was initially saying MAME might be a better option for this.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 15, 2004, 09:26:20 am
Arcadiac's pics reminded me - the analog sticks also act as a button when pressed down, so we probably need to add two more buttons to the panel . . . .

Ahhh, good catch, I totally forgot about that. A lot of games don't use that function, but a few do.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 09:27:16 am
Akkk...and they used to say Defender had too many buttons....what, are kids nowadays growing extra appendages?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 09:33:21 am
Akkk...and they used to say Defender had too many buttons....what, are kids nowadays growing extra appendages?  Cripes.
That's also why I was initially saying MAME might be a better option for this.
What kind of input(s) are often or generally transmitted by depressing the analog sticks?  i.e what does it do?
Intentional Walk in MLB 2004 is L1 and R3 (Left upper shoulder button and Right analog stick press).  I don't play too many PS2 games b/c they all have too many combinations to keep up with  :P
Title: SeanControls - New Images
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 10:06:43 am
.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 10:11:28 am
So I went back to the two left joys, one for the left analog stick, the other for the d-pad.

Also, added the beanbag.

I am trying something new with the shoulder buttons, idea being that Sean can move his arms forward to hit the buttons with his knuckles.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 15, 2004, 10:32:18 am
I think that's a much better placement of the shoulder buttons.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 10:37:23 am
>EDIT - Just noticed that if the new shoulder button layout works I can put the right wrist >button on an angle as well which may be easier to use for Sean.

Agreed.

>Sean - Regarding your thumb usage, do you think you could manage to depress a >button ontop of the joysticks if needed to emulate the PS2 analog sticks being pushed >down?

Two things - On the PS2 pads, the entire stick is pressed, not a button on top of the stick.  A top fire button would be easier to fab.  Depending on Sean's mobility, he might be able to palm the joystick and press a top-fire button with his palm?




Quote
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 10:46:44 am


Two things - On the PS2 pads, the entire stick is pressed, not a button on top of the stick.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 11:45:12 am
Again, not to dash Sean's hopes ( I've heard of some people doing some awfully amazinging things with incredible disabilities)  but I want to throw out again that we may be setting the bar a little high here -

I.e. - Basically a console system and controller with 8 analog buttons, a d-pad, and two analog joysticks (plus two additional buttons) may be a little much to expect for someone with wrist movement, but limited hand movement and limited sensation of pressure being applied.

OTOH, If you basically took 1HSC's design and made it with two digital joysticks and an encoder, you would have perfect control for Joust, Robotron, Galaga, PacMan, Metal Slug, etc.

Sean - Do not take this the wrong way.  I have full use of my hands and I realized long ago I lacked the co-ordination for games with more than really one joystick and two buttons, so I stick to games like the above and avoid Street Fighter, etc.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 15, 2004, 11:58:24 am
The Pelican stick does not have that function, however it is used in very few games by my experience.
Title: More Designs
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 01:15:14 pm
With the top fire buttons, right wrist button on an angle, bigger admin buttons.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 15, 2004, 01:25:34 pm
Its looking real good so far guys...

Just a thought, has anyone considered something like a virtual reality glove for this project. I'm sure one could be built and could control mame but not sure how easily it could be used.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 15, 2004, 01:34:55 pm
Its looking real good so far guys...

Just a thought, has anyone considered something like a virtual reality glove for this project. I'm sure one could be built and could control mame but not sure how easily it could be used.  Fingers could control the buttons, while moving the wrist could control the joystick.

Just an idea my 8 year old son mentioned after I explained to him about Sean's condition, this thread and how people on the forum were rallying behind this project.


I think it is a very interesting idea, but I would have no idea where to start.  Thank your son for the suggestion though.  Maybe it is an idea for the 2006 version... ;D
I would not dismiss this out-of-hand (oops, bad pun, unintentional).  Seriously, I have no idea how one of these works, but it would be good to mention to Sean and see what he thinks.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: unclet on December 15, 2004, 02:43:44 pm
Let me say that the effort being putforth is simply impressive.   Maybe the donations which have been submitted can be kept ongoing so other people in similar circumstances can benefit as well.   Basically, have a waiting list of people who would like to have a custom control panel built for them and simply go down the list accomodating each individual one specifically.   I believe I read in this post of another person stating they tried to find a controller for someone in a similiar situation but had no luck..........

As for the current project for Sean.....

Do you think the button which can be pressed by the right forearm might get pressed accidently when using the right hand joystick?  Basically, if his motor skills are not that precise then moving the right joystick might also result in his right forearm pressing the button at undesirable times.  Also, if the forearm button was going to used as the "main" button for games (ie: firing, jumping), then it also might be quite hard to continuely use your forearm to press the button somewhat rapidly while moving the joystick as well.  Keep in mind I have never played PS2 games so I am not familiar with the buttons which are used.

Anyway, a solution to this (or simply another a way of adding extra button to use) would be to have a button useable by the foot.  Maybe like a foot pedal although you would not need to press the pedal completely down, just simply touch it a bit to activate to button.  The foot could easily be used to fire rapidly.  Not sure if a foot type button is needed (or whether a foot button could even be used in his case), but I thought I would mention it as a possibility.

Good job everyone.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Jabba on December 15, 2004, 04:08:40 pm
...Maybe the donations which have been submitted can be kept ongoing so other people in similar circumstances can benefit as well.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: dweebs0r on December 15, 2004, 04:14:44 pm
Another thought, the "eye toy" for the PS2 might be a good thing to add to the X-mas package.  It'd a webcam-like addition that allows for interaction with the games (such as a simple boxing game) and from what I have seen playing with the thing at the local Walmart, it doesn't require any fine motor movements, only gross motor which Sean is capable of.

I will make a cash donation to the project on Friday and I would still be willing to hack together a webpage for the project if so desired.

--Dweebs
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Goz on December 16, 2004, 09:47:55 am
It's posts and actions like this that make me proud to be a member of this great community. 

Tis the season, I added a little to the fund. Everyone else reading this thread for the first time, if you can spare anything I encourage you to do the same.

-Goz

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: ntjedi on December 16, 2004, 10:03:27 am
I have an extra new Wico red Ball top 8 way stick if you are going to be using one?  I went through the posts but didnt catch if anyone already donated parts.  If not I will just donate money but I thought I would put the part offer out there.  If you want it, just tell me where to ship it and consider it done!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 16, 2004, 10:27:47 am
On the subject of donating parts, IMO it would probably be best to wait and see exactly what is needed before sending stuff. I have quite a bit of stuff I'm not currently using, if it turns out any of that is needed for this I'll gladly send it along.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 10:32:25 am
On the subject of donating parts, IMO it would probably be best to wait and see exactly what is needed before sending stuff. I have quite a bit of stuff I'm not currently using, if it turns out any of that is needed for this I'll gladly send it along.

-S

Yes, keep the offers comming, but hang onto the goodies for now until we know exactly what we need.  New designs comming in a little bit with some cool surprises (if I do say so myself).  :)
Title: Sean Controller - New Designs - 12162004
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 10:50:14 am
I added a wheel on the left side.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 16, 2004, 10:57:38 am
The wheel between the two left sticks is a very creative idea, as is the adjustable wrist buttons. The design just keep getting better & better. Can't wait to see how this comes out.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 16, 2004, 11:39:34 am
Current funding:

$405 donated, another $50 pledged!

Should I post the names of those who have donated/pledged?

--- saint
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 11:48:42 am
All,

I
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 16, 2004, 12:36:02 pm
On the KYE controller:

From Sean's comments in Reply 39:

>also there is a company that makes a controller for a play stations for people who >are disabled whole lot worse than me who cannot move their body and all it is >called a  sip   and Puff controller I wouldn't have the 1st idea on how to use that >and it would not be effective for me I had to much movement I can scratch my >head right my name with a larger pen and do a lot of
>The things that most people my level of injury can't

So I don't think this is the way he will want to go.

I still think we need to ask Sean if he REALLY likes PS2 games, or if a MAME setup and PC games would be good as well.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on December 16, 2004, 12:45:42 pm
MY donation will be coming tomorrow. also Ill still donate the items I listed in my first post if needed.

The plans look increadible.  I cant wait to see this thing in action.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 01:02:36 pm
On the KYE controller:

From Sean's comments in Reply 39:

>also there is a company that makes a controller for a play stations for people who >are disabled whole lot worse than me who cannot move their body and all it is >called a
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 16, 2004, 01:38:05 pm
Not to keep harping on this, but we really need feedback from Sean on:

What games is he looking to play?  Any video games or only PS2 games?

In case Sean isn't familiar with MAME, a (mildly outdated) list of games and screenshots is available at http://www.arcadeathome.com/shots.phtml.

The difference is Arcade games (MAME) generally has simpler controls (single joysticks, 1-3 buttons) and are designed to be more difficult and only last 3 - 20 minutes.  Console games usually have more buttons (2 analog sticks, 8 analog buttons) and are designed to play for 1-2 hours, and are generally easy to play badly and difficult to master.

The only game I've seen Sean mention is Gran Turismo using an Interact V3 wheel and pedal set.  This is a good game, but the controls (by PS2 standards) are pretty simplistic.  There are similar games in MAME, but again, they aren't designed for you to play for hours on end, but there are also PC games like Need For Speed, which are very similar to Gran Turismo.

Final Point - and it applies to a MAME cab as well - the controller needs to be designed for the games it will be used for.

In other words, if Sean only plays games that require the left analog stick and two function buttons, we are being counter productive trying to design for both analog sticks and all ten buttons.  (In that a system that only supported two buttons would be easier for him to use for those games).

Example for the rest of the board - if you are the only one in the house that likes arcade games and you play Galaga, Time Pilot, Gyruss, and Pacman - you are throwing away space and money if you build a 4-player control panel with a SF layout and spinner and trackball and trigger sticks (Frankenpanel).
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 16, 2004, 03:01:03 pm
1hookedspacecadet, I would LOVE to help building this thing. As you know I am in the outskirts of atlanta (20 min away) and have a pretty good size shop with tools that we could do this thing in. If you would like, you are more than welcome to come by and do some work on it here.  Let me know, and by the way, this is incredible what you are doing. I am glad to be part of this forum.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 03:10:36 pm
1hookedspacecadet, I would LOVE to help building this thing. As you know I am in the outskirts of atlanta (20 min away) and have a pretty good size shop with tools that we could do this thing in. If you would like, you are more than welcome to come by and do some work on it here.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Oddfeld on December 16, 2004, 03:15:55 pm
Regarding the KYE controller, even if it is overkill for Sean's use, it would certainly be worth contacting these guys and directing them to this thread. They undoubtedly have far more experience than anyone here in custom designing controls for quadriplegics and they may well be able to offer advice, design help and so forth. And if they aren't interested because they are a business looking to make money then they can always look at this case as useful prototyping for a new product (I'm sure that wouldn't be the case though - people don't tend to run companies like that to be mercenary, but rather to help people).


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 03:18:25 pm
Regarding the KYE controller, even if it is overkill for Sean's use, it would certainly be worth contacting these guys and directing them to this thread. They undoubtedly have far more experience than anyone here in custom designing controls for quadriplegics and they may well be able to offer advice, design help and so forth. And if they aren't interested because they are a business looking to make money then they can always look at this case as useful prototyping for a new product (I'm sure that wouldn't be the case though - people don't tend to run companies like that to be mercenary, but rather to help people).




 ;)

From Ken Yankelevitz, creator of the sip and puff controller.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on December 16, 2004, 03:24:07 pm
Well Mr. Yankelevitz certainly seems willing enough to offer advice & direction on this project, that's very good news.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on December 16, 2004, 04:01:22 pm
I know that when I was searching for an "off the shelf" solution for Sean earlier this year, I mentioned the "sip and puff" solution to him, and he definitely would prefer a hand-operated device.

The fact, though, that Ken would like to help (and has a lot of experience in this area) is a great asset.

I'm so glad to see a solution taking shape!  :D

Kevin
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 04:16:19 pm


One note - I noticed Ken's statement that there is a "turbo" option that will accomplish the auto-fire on many gamepads, that is definitely the way to go.

That would free up the oral switch for something else.  It may be a good idea to make the oral switch, switchable to take over different inputs as needed.  It would not be too hard to wire up to a few of the buttons for this purpose.  Also, I am pretty sure it could be configured to have more than one switch, possibly using a sip and puff switch.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 16, 2004, 04:25:03 pm
1hookedspacecadet Just let me know a couple of days in advanced when you want to do this. I am north of downtown, exit 107 to be precise on 85.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: seanwheels on December 16, 2004, 04:30:17 pm
Hello,  i am  sorry  if it appears I am not keeping up yesterday I was sent  to the hospital with a fever.I   am  back home now and will try to get  caught up..SEAN
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 04:36:56 pm
Hello,
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 16, 2004, 05:30:06 pm
OK, I just looked over the whole thread once again. I am good with a soldering iron, and should be able to hack a ps2 controller with NO problems. I also have a PS2 here at my house, so we can do any testing if need be, and I am sure I can borrow needed games from friends if I do not have the needed games. I really think that if we plan this all out, and have good plans of what we need to do, we can most definetly put it together with some clever thinking. 1hookedspacecadet, could you send me a basic summary of everything that the controller has to implement? I just read over the whole thread, but everything changed so much that I am not sure of everything that will be put on. I could also give you some suggestions on the actual construction of the controller as well as what materials might work.

Keep up the good work people, I am sure Sean and anybody else we might be able to help will really appreciate this.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 07:13:14 pm
1hookedspacecadet, could you send me a basic summary of everything that the controller has to implement? I just read over the whole thread, but everything changed so much that I am not sure of everything that will be put on. I could also give you some suggestions on the actual construction of the controller as well as what materials might work.

Keep up the good work people, I am sure Sean and anybody else we might be able to help will really appreciate this.

The PS2 for testing is also a huge plus!

Regarding the materials, I am most comfortable working with wood, and 3/4 ply or mdf is usually my choice, but we will need to be aware of the weight as this will sit on Sean's lap. 

I also would be interested to know if we should put some sort of angle brackets on the sides to hang the cp off of Seans wheelchair arms if that is possible. 

I am assumming that Sean has no feeling in his legs, but I would think it would still be detrimental to have alot of weight on his lap for circulation etc.

Once we finalize the design we can estimate how much wood we would use and the corresponding weight.  If needed we can come up with some creative ways to shave the weight down if needed.

We might consider using 3/4 ply (a little lighter than MDF) then route areas out on the inside of the chassis to remove uneeded weight while maintaining good strength of course.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 16, 2004, 07:29:39 pm
That would not be a problem. I am also comfortable with working with metal, and during school I have access to a full metal shop. It would be cool if we could make it out of metal, but I am not 100% comfortable with doing this, it just seems that if we screw up it will be expensive and labor intensive to start over. If anything, to reduce weight, we could use 1/2' MDF and just brace it to be strong enough, or some sort of hardwood that we can use that is thinner but still strong.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Alpha17X on December 16, 2004, 08:45:09 pm
Dunno if this has been thought of already but rather than it sitting in his lap.. or maybe in addition to....


.... Adjustable mounting brackets for him to secure it to his chair?  kind of like how some dinner trays work?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 16, 2004, 09:13:48 pm
That would not be a problem. I am also comfortable with working with metal, and during school I have access to a full metal shop. It would be cool if we could make it out of metal, but I am not 100% comfortable with doing this, it just seems that if we screw up it will be expensive and labor intensive to start over. If anything, to reduce weight, we could use 1/2' MDF and just brace it to be strong enough, or some sort of hardwood that we can use that is thinner but still strong.

Here is what I was thinking on the routing to reduce weight if needed.

Re: ".... Adjustable mounting brackets for him to secure it to his chair?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on December 17, 2004, 09:48:00 am
The following are not cheap, but may give some more ideas...


(http://www.tashinc.com/images/sw_minijoystickpad.gif) (http://www.tashinc.com/images/sw_star.gif) (http://www.tashinc.com/images/sw_wafer.gif)

www.tashinc.com (http://www.tashinc.com/catalog/s_multiple_switches.html) - all of these are simple digital switches.

(http://www.edupro.nl/html/images/32002.gif) (http://www.edupro.nl/html/images/7113.gif) (http://www.edupro.nl/html/images/32001.gif)

www.edupro.nl (http://www.edupro.nl/) - then search on "Funkey", or look under Hardware:
Title: Scale Images
Post by: RetroJames on December 17, 2004, 09:54:24 am
I am sending actual size images to SeaMonkey for his visit tommorow, just posting smaller ones here with a grid to show the scale.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 17, 2004, 11:46:38 am
Welcome aboard Barrie AKA skallagrigg.  Feel free to post any other possible solutions.  We appreciate your help and input.  I'm looking forward to the result of Seamonkeys visit too!  This is a very exciting project.  Thanks all for your help! ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on December 17, 2004, 12:00:31 pm
If the current superb looking design doesn't work out,
Title: Analogue problems
Post by: skallagrigg on December 17, 2004, 12:07:19 pm
Just had the following message from EduPro, in the Netherlands:



Quote
I am not sure that the Funkey [track-ball] works on a Playstation 2, I think it does not, because on the page I mention the port it works on, and that is the PS/2-port and this one has nothing to do with the PS2..... Sorry, my mistake!, there is however a new device that is meant for children with physical dysabilities, that works with the Playstation 2. This week I got a mail about this one. I will look it up as soon as I am in my office and get back to you, o.k?


I'll keep you all posted...

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Questions for Sean during SeaMonkey's Visit
Post by: RetroJames on December 17, 2004, 12:17:26 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a basic list of items SeaMonkey should discuss with Sean regarding the CP from my perspective.  If anyone has any further suggestions, please quote this post and add your input.  Any other additions, please quote the last (most current) list and add more suggestions.  This way Sea Monkey can print the last applicable post for his visit with Sean.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Questions -

- Double check overall dimensions of the cp chassis. Currently it is approx. 20" long x 11" wide x 5" high (that is from the bottom of the beanbag to the wrist rests).

- Determine optimum height from bottom of the beanbag to the top of the cp and to the top of the wrist rests.

- Determine correct angle(s) at which Sean's arms will rest on the cp. Drawings to date show them straight on, my suspicion is that they will be angles inward.  Tracing his arms on the cp in the applicable positions would be helpful.

- Have Sean pretend to move sticks, contact buttons, etc. in order to determine if his range of movement will allow him to operate the cp as pictured.

- Ask Sean about how he would prefer the cp to mount meaning should we use the beanbag and have the cp sit on his lap or should we make "hangers" on the sides so it can rest on his wheelchair.

- If hangers are desired, take applicable measurments.

- Discuss the weight of the cp.  What are the implications of X amount of weight resting on his lap if the beanbag approach is desired?

- Survey how his PS2 is setup.  How does he play now?  How does he load disks?  How might he use and then stow the cp?  With assistance?  If there is anything we can do to make that easier let me know.

- I am unsure if Sean knows about MAME.  He mentioned that his all-time fav game is Dig-Dug.  There is a PS1 namco disk that has dig-dug but also school him on MAME and see if he would rather go in that direction.  Who knows the pelican controller may satisfy him for the PS2 usage, then we might build him a MAME cp.

- If possible, pictures of Sean's hands may be helpful, even better if he is holding a joystick so I can get an idea of how his hands might rest on the cp.  Would he have his hands on top of the joysticks or on the side with his hand resting on the cp?
Title: Analogue problems
Post by: skallagrigg on December 17, 2004, 12:43:00 pm
I've been trying for some time to make an accessible universal controller. Finding out about this forum is really exciting. I'm keen to help if I can, and I'm also keen to find help too - ideally through finding a solution for Sean.

My current work so far on a PS2 / universal accessible controller:

(http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/1/x-arcade.jpg)

The X-arcade controller has switchable analogue modes. The digital joystick can act as the D-pad, or the left analogue stick or the right analogue stick (on the press of two different buttons). It also has the option for full push - or half push. A good compromise I thought.

However - this unit has suffered from 'ghosting'. The controller operates by itself randomly when I connect external switches. I and others are looking to solve this problem, but so far no luck.

My X-arcade D.I.Y. page is here: www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/DIY/x-arcade.htm

I've also worked on a Dual-Shock 3rd party controller (easier to adapt) and a 4gamers arcade stick. The 4-gamers stick has a 3-way switch which assigns the D-pad / left stick / right stick to the digital joystick. The 4gamers stick is quite easily available on eBay.co.uk:

(http://img.game.net/ml/2/7/5/2/275250ps.gif)

These are both fairly straight forward to adapt, but if you press left and right together or up and down together, the controller would short out, resetting the Playstation. A real problem for disabled gamers using switches, and one I'm still looking for a solution to. However - this might not be a problem for Sean if he uses three joysticks.

Best of luck all.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 17, 2004, 07:04:46 pm
WOW great work all.  It seems as if we all just need to take a deep breath and wait for some input from Sean and seamonkey.  Hopefully the package I sent will arrive in time to take to Sean, I'm excited to see where this goes, the implications for adapting a controller for my son is very encouraging.
Keep up the good work all and as always Thank You!
ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Kremmit on December 17, 2004, 11:06:33 pm
re: reducing weight on lap

What if you built the box out of Plexi instead of wood?  I don't believe it's hard to bend with a little heat, and would weigh a lot less than MDF.

re: top-fire buttons

If Sean can't manage a top-fire, he still may be able to use a trigger, as a hand-squeeze requires less dexterity than a thumb push.  Something like these:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6137147329&rd=1
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 18, 2004, 09:02:36 am
re: reducing weight on lap

What if you built the box out of Plexi instead of wood?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on December 18, 2004, 11:19:48 am
More information if it will help:

(http://enablingdevices.com/images_medium/867.jpg) (http://enablingdevices.com/images_medium/756.jpg) (http://www.tfhusa.com/images/products/temp/30dae64578862de5224f2c2dc3d3ebdf.jpg)
(http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/4/DIY/retro/8.jpg) (http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/1/PSinterfacesmall.jpg)

www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/games/1interface-stockists.htm

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 18, 2004, 02:37:14 pm
I am headed over right now. I have the template printed, and cut and taped so it is actual size.

I do have the box of goodies in hand so Sean will have some joysticks to playtest some games, and wow...a wireless setup...sweet.

I am also taking pen paper measure tape, and some happs buttons to test and note, and template while I am there.

I will post back in a few hours.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: dweebs0r on December 18, 2004, 04:03:57 pm
Saint, what are the donations up to now, out of curiousity?  Maybe we could get enough together for a Mame controller and a PS2 controller.  Wow, that would make for a merry Christmas indeed.

--Dweebs
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 18, 2004, 04:07:06 pm
Good news SeaMonkey! I am thinking of wiring the controller with some db25 connectors, stick a serial switch in there, and with the twist of a knob change between mame/ps2. It could be easily done. Also it would be better than carrying arround 2 different controllers, and we can just concentrate the funds onto the 1 controller instead of 2.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 18, 2004, 07:07:39 pm
Right on!

Yeah that would rock. We talked about MAME today, and Sean is interested. Next saturday I am going to load it on his PC.

Okay I printed out a full sized CP as you guys have seen posted.

There were some erganomic problems as we suspected.

We then took some foam-board and cut out the elements of the original layout and taped them on the foamboard for optimal positioning.

Sean seems pretty happy with the final layout for the most part.

Here are the changes:

everything should be reversed. That is the joystick and the joystick replacing the D-pad should be on the right. The triangle, square, circle, and X should be on the left, due to his arm strengths and control.

Instead of a square, triangle, circle and X, how viable would it be to replace that with a 4-way joystick instead? We discussed the fact that it would prohibit multi-button moves, but how common are those? (Seriously, some PS2 people answer that because I don't know.)

We split the controler and angled them in on both sides to line up with how Sean would lay his arms.

The back (farthest from Sean) side of the controller should be 5" high including beanbag, and the other end should be 4" high, to accomodate him in bed.

The controller shouldn't be a rectangle. It will need arm supports.

Here is a rough sketch of what we came up with:

(http://www.ultimatebattles.com/CP.jpg)

Notice that this means the joysticks will need to be mounted for diagonal throws.

He has requested the joys have the longest throw possible to allow him to "have something to work with" but the "triangle, circle, square, X" joystick will only be a 4-way and that can have a regular throw.

I am going to transfer this template we made on paper to something that folds and mail it off.

I think that about does it.

With protractor, poster board, foam board, etc, expenses so far are only
$15.98 ! 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 18, 2004, 07:28:09 pm
Let me know when you would like funds transferred - kudos for the work!

--- saint
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Ton80 on December 19, 2004, 12:30:42 am
Quote
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 19, 2004, 01:02:30 am
He has a second box that his doctor is letting him use. It is a 300 AMD and yes I ran MAME on mine. I may need to get an older version though and stick with the classic ROMs.

He said the crashed box is faster, but I didn't ask how much faster.

We will spend more time on the computer next saturday. (Christmas)
I will help him get Windows loaded back on it. Looks like a blue screen of death on bootup due to a missing file. Should be an easy fix with the Windows CD.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Kremmit on December 19, 2004, 02:36:23 am
Where would we need to bend the plexi though?

I was picturing soomething like the attached picture.  It appears to be made of 3 pieces of plexi; two sides, and one bent piece.  I think it's much stronger to build a plexi box this way than to glue 6 separate sides together.  Plus it cuts down on sharp edges.  Plus you can make it light up inside.  ;D

I also dug up some links with plexi-working tips:

http://slot-tech-ftp.serveftp.com:8080/videogame%20conversions/plexiglass/plexi.htm
Randy Fromm's tips for working with plexi.

http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/spacepanel/page5.asp
The only pic I could find of bent plexi

http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/plex.html
Tons of plexi info from the world of aquariums.

from http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9712/msg00163.html:
A few years ago I helped build two 400 gallon show tanks for a local fish store.  We purchased the Plexiglas from a local plastics supply company along with the solvent.  The secret to bending the material is to use an industrial style heat gun.  Using an oven can warp the sheet of plexi and ruin it in short order.

Our first step was to buy the material pre-cut because of the smooth edge provided.  If you want,  you can buy a saber saw blade from the plastics company designed specifically to cut the plastic.  Practice cuts are essential so as not to chip or crack the plexi for the final product.  I think there may be a special router tool that can be used to easily clean up ragged saw cut, just remember to oversize the saw cuts so you don't run short on material.  Peel off the protective paper from both sides of the area you wish to bend and clamp to a table, overhanging the section to be bent.  Apply heat gun hot air to within an inch or two of the surface along proposed bend line.  When the plexi begins to get hot, check for flexibility.  Use a pipe or tube of the appropriate radius as a guide to bend the plexi around to form a corner.  (To be very precise, you can make a hinged fixture around the pipe to hold and bend the plexi as we did.)  It is important not to soften the plexi too much, this maximizes your ability to control the bending process.  (It would be a good idea to buy some scrap plexi and practice before doing the real thing.)   Use a carpenters square to verify a 90 degree bend at the top and bottom of the of the corner.

Always remember, MEASURE TWICE, CUT ONCE!

from http://howtos.linux.com/howtos/MP3-Box-HOWTO-7.shtml:
7.4 How do I bend plexiglass?

Get a torch and heat the opposite side of the plexiglass that you are going to bend. You should move the torch back and forth, not to fast, and not too slow. One minute - two minutes should be fine, if you warm up it too much, bubbles will appear. After you have heated the material, put in on table and slowly bend it. Keep it under the desired angle up to a minute.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: gprime on December 19, 2004, 04:58:58 pm
I don't post much around here, but I just want to say that the joystick for the square triangle circle and x buttons is a really great idea. For limited hand movement it should make switching between each button much easier.

I've been following this thread for a while, you guys seem to making good progress!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 20, 2004, 01:23:20 pm
Awesome stuff guys!  SeaMonkey, you rock.  Looking at the new cp design, MAME looks more doable than ever as we will now have 2 analog sticks and 2 digital sticks.  I am a bit concerned about the shoulder buttons though, and was on the other design.  I just don't see how Sean will be able to use them with any degree of effectiveness.  Maybe a coupleof sip n' puff switches are in order?

I am awaiting the revised drawings and will post a new 3dmodel at that time.  Also, I plan to make a full mockup and get it shipped back to SeaMonkey by the first of the year to finalize the design.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on December 20, 2004, 03:11:12 pm
I'd recommend adding 3.5mm mono sockets for any of the controls you are a bit unsure of. Then Sean can add sip/puff, head switches or anything else that may help at a later date - and to suit each game. Great work by the way.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

(http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/switches13.jpg) (http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/switches12.jpg) (http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/SpecsSwitch[1].gif)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 20, 2004, 03:13:21 pm
The sholder buttons are no problem. Shawn's hands are clinched at the second knuckle and as long as they have 3/8 " inch clearence of each other, he can hit them fine, by "punching" forward. We tested with a blue Happs button, and it worked fine. We may want to go with jumbo buttons however:
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 20, 2004, 03:47:07 pm
Most of the MAME stuff his box will run will be joystick and a button or two anyway.  What is the Mame version of choice for low end machines by the way? I will make sure to hook him up.
MameWorld Link (http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/arcadepanels/faq.htm#What%20are%20the%20significant%20MAME%20%22milestones%22?)
I would say at least go back to 0.53 when 8-bit modes were still supported.

R37B15 was a Windows Build and has hardware stretching.

R36B12 or previous for BattleZone, Asteroids Deluxe, etc. but this is DOS-based and harder to configure.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on December 20, 2004, 03:59:09 pm
Status: $470 in donations, $50 pledged.

Also, Game Cabinet's Inc. (http://www.gamecabinetsinc.com/) has quietly contacted me to let me know they will supply all the arcade parts necessary for this project, up to a maximum of $400! The parts must come from Happ Controls. Awesome!

Spent status:
$17 to SeaMonkey (expenses + PayPal fee)

--- saint
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 20, 2004, 04:03:57 pm
Status: $470 in donations, $50 pledged.

Also, Game Cabinet's Inc. (http://www.gamecabinetsinc.com/) has quietly contacted me to let me know they will supply all the arcade parts necessary for this project, up to a maximum of $400! The parts must come from Happ Controls. Awesome!

--- saint



WOW! 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 20, 2004, 06:50:59 pm
Holy Smokes! That is awesome. 1hookedspacecadet do you have any new plans after seamonkey's visit? If you would like, you can send me some of the plans and I can start on some of the basic construction of this thing. Let me know, and again keep up the good work guys!

Thanks, Fred.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 20, 2004, 07:43:32 pm
Holy Smokes! That is awesome. 1hookedspacecadet do you have any new plans after seamonkey's visit? If you would like, you can send me some of the plans and I can start on some of the basic construction of this thing. Let me know, and again keep up the good work guys!

Thanks, Fred.

Not yet.  I am waiting on SeaMonkey to send the drawings, then I can setup the model.  I think we should do a full-scale cardboard or foam board mockup though and send it out for Sean to try before building to make sure we have it all setup correctly.  I know I can't be sure about a cp until I put my hands on it.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on December 20, 2004, 09:10:31 pm
Status: $470 in donations, $50 pledged.

Also, Game Cabinet's Inc. (http://www.gamecabinetsinc.com/) has quietly contacted me to let me know they will supply all the arcade parts necessary for this project, up to a maximum of $400! The parts must come from Happ Controls. Awesome!

Spent status:
$17 to SeaMonkey (expenses + PayPal fee)

--- saint


That is fan freaking tastic...
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: snubber on December 21, 2004, 06:24:38 pm
Just wanted to say it's inspiring all of you are helping Sean. Amazing display of generosity.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - Paging PS2 Owners
Post by: RetroJames on December 22, 2004, 09:45:16 am
Question for PS2 folks.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - Paging PS2 Owners
Post by: Tiger-Heli on December 22, 2004, 10:09:55 am
>Question is, "Are BOTH sets of shoulder buttons needed for alot of games?"

Typically, yes.

>Would it be ok to have one S&P that can be remapped to the left or right shoulder buttons as needed?

Typically no.

There may be some games that only use the L1-R1 or L2-R2 ones (or none at all), but most of the ones I've played use at least 3 of them.  I think you will want two switches.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 22, 2004, 11:21:18 am
Aren't the shoulder buttons very commonly used in some games? I don't know the extent to which a ps2 game remaps buttons, so I guess as long as we had the sip and puff switches for some stuff it would be ok, since if it is a button that is used maybe for firing I don't know how convenient it would be for Sean to keep going at those things. I am guessing we would be looking at 2 switches correct?

Thanks for all the great info guys, Fred.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 22, 2004, 12:06:29 pm
Aren't the shoulder buttons very commonly used in some games? I don't know the extent to which a ps2 game remaps buttons, so I guess as long as we had the sip and puff switches for some stuff it would be ok, since if it is a button that is used maybe for firing I don't know how convenient it would be for Sean to keep going at those things. I am guessing we would be looking at 2 switches correct?

Thanks for all the great info guys, Fred.

Yes, I think two.  Ken just emailed me and can sell us two for $80.  We will need to adapt a stand or headpiece.  That is a great deal as they generally cost $200 - $295 elsewhere.

Also, he mentioned the siwtches for depressing the analog sticks -

"Don't forget the  L3 and
R3 switches which are done by pushing down on the left or right analog
joystick.  Grand Theft Auto uses the L3 switch to "Honk the horn" and get
the prostitute to come out of the hotel!"

Now I think it is pretty important that Sean can get his girls up off thier butt to pony up the cash so....

What about a pressure plates near his wrist etc.  They have some that will activate when pretty much a fly lands on them, that way Sean can just rest his wrist on the plate for a second to get the day's take.

See the "Bass Switch" here:  http://www.synapseadaptive.com/switches/DJ/switch_kit.htm



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 22, 2004, 03:46:06 pm
That is pretty neat looking. How big are they? Also, I know you were thinking of adding wrist cushions for Sean, would this get in the way?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 22, 2004, 03:59:44 pm
That is pretty neat looking. How big are they? Also, I know you were thinking of adding wrist cushions for Sean, would this get in the way?

The site says they are about 4" x 6" - these are pretty steep, about $50 a pop.  I would think we could fabricate the same thing with a microswitch (maybe from a coin - door) and some sort of flexed plate. 

Maybe the same material they use for those cones you can put on your pet's head to keep them from biting a wound.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on December 22, 2004, 09:36:45 pm
Yeah, it would be fairly simple to make something like that. Either just 2 metal plates on top of each other, 4 screws with springs on them, and wire one plate to ground and the other plate to the button press and that does it. One thing you forgot to reply on, what about Sean's wrist cushions? Are we forgetting about those? This seems to be a really good idea, so I would think that it would be favorable to ditch the beanbags for this. What would Sean think?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on December 23, 2004, 09:40:51 am
1hookedspacecadet your dog looks just like mine.  He had to wear that "CONE" for awhile when he got clipped  :-X.  What is he/she Black Lab..?  How much does he/she weigh?  My dog "MAD MAX" is 1 1/2 years old, black lab and weighs 110 lbs of Muscle(NOT FAT).  Hes is a monsters and only getting bigger.  My wife just got a new Female Black lab "ROXY" and she is 10 weeks old this week and wieghs 25 lbs.  The Vet said she might get bigger then Max.   :-\. 


Back to the controller. 

Those presure pads are pretty sweet.  I cant wait to see what the mock up final looks like for this CP.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 23, 2004, 09:48:09 am
1hookedspacecadet your dog looks just like mine.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 23, 2004, 10:37:36 am
Yeah, it would be fairly simple to make something like that. Either just 2 metal plates on top of each other, 4 screws with springs on them, and wire one plate to ground and the other plate to the button press and that does it. One thing you forgot to reply on, what about Sean's wrist cushions? Are we forgetting about those? This seems to be a really good idea, so I would think that it would be favorable to ditch the beanbags for this. What would Sean think?

So on the pressure switch, I am enclosing a quick diagram of one possible config.  Note it may be possible to eliminate the small springs and use the natural tension in a material (like the plastic cone material) to act as the spring if properly cantalevered.  I tried to depict a microswitch with a little lever on it like the ones used for a coin insert.

On the wrist rests, I noted this in SeaMonkey's preliminary report from Sean;

"The back (farthest from Sean) side of the controller should be 5" high including beanbag, and the other end should be 4" high, to accomodate him in bed."

That seems to indicate the cp will have an increasing slope from front to back.  My initial thoughts at this point are to put together the mockup without any wrist rests, let Sean put his hands on it, and see if there is one or more applicable spots for those.

Also, remember the beanbag is so Sean can rest the cp on his lap in his chair or in bed.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 23, 2004, 12:53:18 pm
I'd recommend adding 3.5mm mono sockets for any of the controls you are a bit unsure of. Then Sean can add sip/puff, head switches or anything else that may help at a later date - and to suit each game. Great work by the way.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk

(http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/switches13.jpg) (http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/switches12.jpg) (http://www.liberator.co.uk/images/SpecsSwitch[1].gif)

Just a thought, This person has some experience to offer for control flexibility and also has built adapted controllers, apparently works for a company that does just that,  keep them in mind when suggestions are made.  It could make the process so much simpler!  ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on December 23, 2004, 02:04:52 pm
Thanks for the reminder.  I just browsed Barrie's site again and found his DIY instructions for a S&P switch as well as some further discussions about the 3.5 mono plug jacks and pressure switches.  Check out this link provided by him to a supplier of low pressure vacume switches.

http://tinyurl.com/57tl3
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - Call for equipment
Post by: RetroJames on December 23, 2004, 02:49:44 pm
Ok folks,

I have been conferring with Hiub 1 and we have decided now is the time to start figuring out the analog joystick wiring and the mounting of the Pelican sticks while we wait on the revised designs from SeaMonkey.


To that end we are ready for the following components if anyone has them to donate:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2 x PELICAN PELPL950 Universal Arcade Sticks

(example: http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20260800103)


1 or more aftermarket PS2 controllers - prefer ones which have an "auto-fire" or "turbo" option

- (possible examples: http://wrongcrowd.com/arcade/controllers.shtml)

NOTE: One issue with the stock ps2 controller is that it has small tracts of copper on the inner PCB.  Not much to solder to.  The link below discusses this issue and illustrates why we should look at aftermarket parts. 

http://wrongcrowd.com/~arcade/sony.shtml



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It looks like we can get the Pelicans for about $15-$20 pc and the other controller for around $10 if no one has any available.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on December 23, 2004, 10:20:13 pm
That's a good price for the Pelican Universals, literally half-price.  Keep in mind that they already have some ps2 capable circuitry (possibly analog), turbo (auto-fire, same thing?) and programmable buttons.  Could the circuit boards inside them be daisy-chained to emulate the analog sticks?  I know very little at all about circuit boards but maybe something to test out. 
Keep up the good work all!
ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 25, 2004, 05:10:32 am
Hey Sean, that cabinet we talked about got SNIPED at 1 second to go.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6140330981&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT

I will see you tomorrow.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on December 25, 2004, 01:35:28 pm
Sean got a pass to leave the facility today, so I won't be putting MAME on his box for Christmas as planned. I will do it tomorrow instead.

Sean wanted everyone to know that he hasn't been able to be online, but he thanks everyone who's been helping, and wishes everyone a Merry Christmas.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Puds on December 30, 2004, 07:13:05 am
hey guys, sorry havnt been on the forum lately or i would have jumped in on the physical  construction of this thing as soon as I heard Atlanta.  I'm a student at Georgia Tech and am currently on my holiday break but only live about 20 mins north east of atlanta.  I just briefly read the post about possibly using a shop here to work on this controller?  If that's still the case I would truely love to come by and do what I can.  I can still remember how painful it was to hack all my xbox controllers with a soldering iron but after 4 controllers I'm at least a pro at it :P

hit me up with an email if you're interested.
gtg225s@mail.gatech.edu

and AIM name:   puds99

- Pat
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SOAPboy on December 31, 2004, 11:06:52 pm
ok..

My 2 copper worth (bad WoW joke)




PS2 analog sticks be default are rather "simple" if you just look at em.. I was thinking, it wouldnt be terribly hard to just hack up the actual analogs, and extent the stick a bit..

the hatswitch.. i know the PERFECT switch for that.. Neo Geo Pocket Colors hatswitch.. http://www.cyberiapc.com/vgg/pics/neogeo_pocket5.jpg

if anyone of you have owned one, you know, its SIMPLE to use, and its the most responsive Dpad ever made.. and the bonus, there cheap..


ok.. thats all my ideas..

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 01, 2005, 05:04:21 pm
Happy New Year All!

Just getting back into the groove and ready to push ahead on Sean's controller.  Hiub and I need the controllers to get started on the wiring while we await the revised plans.

I am sending Saint a note to ask him to order the following:

2 x Pelican Arcade Sticks $14.99 pc. ( http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20260800103 )

2 x Mad Katz controllers $9.99 pc (  http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20260600032  )

If anyone has a cheaper source, let us know. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on January 01, 2005, 05:14:32 pm
Don't forget I'll need to know where to have them shipped :)

--- saint

Happy New Year All!

Just getting back into the groove and ready to push ahead on Sean's controller.  Hiub and I need the controllers to get started on the wiring while we await the revised plans.

I am sending Saint a note to ask him to order the following:

2 x Pelican Arcade Sticks $14.99 pc. ( http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20260800103 )

2 x Mad Katz controllers $9.99 pc (  http://www.fadfusion.com/selection.php?product_item_number=20260600032  )

If anyone has a cheaper source, let us know. 

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 01, 2005, 05:54:31 pm
PM Sent!  :)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 02, 2005, 04:24:16 pm
Just heard from SeaMonkey, diagrams are on the way and should  be in by Tues.  Saint is ordering up some parts so it looks like we are on track.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 02, 2005, 06:34:55 pm
Good deal! I will post whenever I get the controller and take a look at it
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 03, 2005, 01:48:14 pm
I've been off work, and offline for the last two weeks for xmas vacation. I'm very happy to see that enthusiasm for this project has not died down any. At this point I don't know that there's anything I can offer other than encouragement at this point, but please feel free to ask if there's anyting I can do. I'll continue watching this thread and if any needed parts that I have pop up I'll be happy to donate. In the meantime, kudos to you guys who are doing the actual design and building.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: jsco on January 04, 2005, 11:56:11 am
I first want to say that I really appreciate what you all are doing to help this guy and all the other disabled people that happen to find this thread, myself included. I am in a similar situation to Seanwheels and have been trying to think of a way to build a controller that would allow me to play any console game.

I have been using an x-arcade controller for about a year now and I've been able to play most of the games that do not require the use of both analog sticks at the same time. The three games that I am playing now are KOTOR2 (Xbox), MGS3 and GTA:SA (PS2). The major limitations I have found while playing these games are:

- Lack of analog joystick
- Not enough controls (buttons, joysticks) for games that require the use of both analog joysticks
- switching between left/right analog and d-pad requires pushing a button that affects game play
- Lack of L3 and R3 buttons
- Lack of ability to remap the button layout

I believe that the lack of ability to remap the button layout is a major flaw in the design that you have proposed for seanwheels. I guarantee that there are games out there that use button combinations that would be impossible to execute with this controller. One of the problems I have while playing MGS3 is being able to aim and shoot my weapon. To do this I have to press two buttons (R1 and square) with the side of my hand and I always accidentally hit other buttons in the process. The button layout you have proposed would probably eliminate accidentally hitting other buttons, but if you don't allow the user to remap the buttons for different games it will not work in certain situations.

What hardware/software would you need to be able to remap the buttons like this? I know that the x-arcade controller has the ability to re-map the joystick to emulate left/right analog or d-pad controls. What would be needed to remap all the buttons on the controller?

I was also wondering why they have decided to rip out the analog sticks from the pelican arcade controllers instead of using something like the 49-way joystick from Happ Controls http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/a219391.htm I understand the price differences, but are there any technical reasons for this decision?

I was thinking that in order to solve all of these limitations I would have to create some custom hardware/software. Something like a custom version of the I-PAC http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html or a custom version of the hardware in the x-arcade. That way I could add as many buttons as I'd like and be able to remap the buttons. Is this the case? Programming a custom microcontroller seems like a daunting task, and isn't something I really want to do.

Justin
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: darkmavis on January 04, 2005, 05:25:48 pm
dunno if this is any help for you lot but i found this on ebay see if its any good! its ps2 compatible too...


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11319&item=8158715493&rd=1
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 05, 2005, 03:26:26 pm
I have one of those. The analog sticks don't work in PS2 games, they work fine on PS1 though.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: darkmavis on January 05, 2005, 05:54:20 pm
dang! ah well it was worth a try
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 06, 2005, 05:32:25 pm
I got the revised diag from Sea Monkey today, haven't heard from Sean lately though, hope all is well.  I will have some new drawings up asap.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 06, 2005, 09:58:09 pm
I sent you mail to the acct that you have posted on the board.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 07, 2005, 08:28:38 am
I'll make another trip out there Saturday, and check up on Sean.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 07, 2005, 10:00:46 am
Re-checking my email he sent me a note 12/25/04 saying his P3 with the voice recognition sw crashed.  The note was typed and brief.  That may be why he is not posting too much.  Also, he replied that a trackball may be a good thing too.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 07, 2005, 10:43:59 am
I first want to say that I really appreciate what you all are doing to help this guy and all the other disabled people that happen to find this thread, myself included. I am in a similar situation to Seanwheels and have been trying to think of a way to build a controller that would allow me to play any console game.

I have been using an x-arcade controller for about a year now and I've been able to play most of the games that do not require the use of both analog sticks at the same time. The three games that I am playing now are KOTOR2 (Xbox), MGS3 and GTA:SA (PS2). The major limitations I have found while playing these games are:

- Lack of analog joystick
- Not enough controls (buttons, joysticks) for games that require the use of both analog joysticks
- switching between left/right analog and d-pad requires pushing a button that affects game play
- Lack of L3 and R3 buttons
- Lack of ability to remap the button layout

I believe that the lack of ability to remap the button layout is a major flaw in the design that you have proposed for seanwheels. I guarantee that there are games out there that use button combinations that would be impossible to execute with this controller. One of the problems I have while playing MGS3 is being able to aim and shoot my weapon. To do this I have to press two buttons (R1 and square) with the side of my hand and I always accidentally hit other buttons in the process. The button layout you have proposed would probably eliminate accidentally hitting other buttons, but if you don't allow the user to remap the buttons for different games it will not work in certain situations.

What hardware/software would you need to be able to remap the buttons like this? I know that the x-arcade controller has the ability to re-map the joystick to emulate left/right analog or d-pad controls. What would be needed to remap all the buttons on the controller?

I was also wondering why they have decided to rip out the analog sticks from the pelican arcade controllers instead of using something like the 49-way joystick from Happ Controls http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/a219391.htm I understand the price differences, but are there any technical reasons for this decision?

I was thinking that in order to solve all of these limitations I would have to create some custom hardware/software. Something like a custom version of the I-PAC http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html or a custom version of the hardware in the x-arcade. That way I could add as many buttons as I'd like and be able to remap the buttons. Is this the case? Programming a custom microcontroller seems like a daunting task, and isn't something I really want to do.

Justin


Justin,

Hello and I'm glad you found the thread.  I hope you stick around!  On the remapping, we are looking at that issue and also discussing the need for input jacks that would allow Sean to add any additional input devices as needed.  that suggestion came from Barrie at OneSwitch.org.  Great site, you should check it out as it addresses many of the issues you discussed.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Jabba on January 09, 2005, 08:47:24 pm
Any more developments on the controller for Sean?

Saint, how much of the funds have been used so far and how much is left?

It looks like Sean has been down a little while. Hope everything is OK with him...
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 09, 2005, 10:33:06 pm
I should have the designs done by tommorow based on the info from Sean and Sea Monkey.  Lotsa family distractions this weekend. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - New Design Sketch
Post by: RetroJames on January 10, 2005, 10:05:54 am
Small update,

Here is the preliminary sketch of the new design. I did this from Sea Monkey's template to get the dimensions down.  If I remember correctly he said that this will be on a slope, the front of the cp (farthest from Sean) at 5" height and the closest at 4" height.  Sea Monkey please confirm.  Also, I wasn't sure from the template if the wheel idea was still wanted (the wheels that assist in switching from one joy to another).  Let me know. 

Better plans to follow soon.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 10, 2005, 03:05:12 pm
The back (farthest from Sean) side of the controller should be 5" high including beanbag, and the other end should be 4" high, to accomodate him in bed.

Sean says that pillows can work if that is too much trouble.


Help me out...what is this wheel?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 10, 2005, 03:47:53 pm
The back (farthest from Sean) side of the controller should be 5" high including beanbag, and the other end should be 4" high, to accomodate him in bed.

Sean says that pillows can work if that is too much trouble.


Help me out...what is this wheel?


Re: Wheel - Check out my second post on this page, you can see the wheel there - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,28718.120.html

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 10, 2005, 05:13:14 pm
I am not sure what that is for. LOL

Sean never mentioned it. Is this a switch activating one joystick or the other, or does it just facilitate movement?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Scott84 on January 10, 2005, 05:18:32 pm
You guys are truly awesome. Such a nice thing you guys are doing!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 10, 2005, 09:44:03 pm
Ok, just a fast sanity check - here is the overall footprint, I have set it on a slope from front to back, 5" high at the front, 4" high at the back (the end of the arm wrests). Just wanted to make sure the 4" height is at the end of the arm wrests and not the portion that is just in font of Sean's torso -


On the wheels, the ide was he could use them to transition from one joystick to another without having to lifft his hand.  Maye we can put the wheel on one side of the prototype and Sean can try it out.

Check out the picks and let me know what you think.  BTW: Did you see Sean this weekend?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 11, 2005, 07:45:07 am
No, my wife and I went out there but he wasn't there.

Sean just sent me a PM that he has moved, so I am going to check out the new address this weekend. I am not sure if he has the same phone number or not, but I am going to try that too.

Yeah the idea was that the shorter end is at the end of the arm rests.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 13, 2005, 12:30:23 pm
Hope all is well with Sean.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 13, 2005, 01:20:28 pm
All, here is a quick update -

Hiub1 did some testing with the pelican stick.  It does not appear to be a true analog joystick and it is apparently a bit chincy.  Hiub1 did some preliminary testing with the gamepad analog joystick and it appears we can use a true analog joystick fom  Happs. ( http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/50287600.htm )  We can then use two of the analog sticks and two ultimate 4 ways from Happs.

He is speaking with a happs rep on a related issue and we should know more today or tommorow.  I have yet to open the pelican or gamepad I recieved, which is good as we may be returning those items, certainly the pelican is going back.

I still need to finish the revised plans and mockup, and have a three day weekend comming up so that should give me the time needed to reach those milestones.

It looks like the offer for the account at Happs is going to pay off big as those analog sticks are not cheap.  They  will however be very durable and should serve the purpose well for a long time.

Sean if your out there drop one of us a line so we know all is well and Sea Monkey if you are able to visit, let us know.  Arcadiac reminded me that when someone with disabilites moves it can take a good deal longer to get settled in so I am assumming Sean is busy getting situated.

Also, right now we are planning to purchase the following from Happs -

4 pushbuttons
2 ultimate 4 way sticks
2 ultimate analog sticks

That will leave us with about $75-$100 on account (minus shipping fees) so if there is anything else anyone sees we may need from happs, please chime in before we order.

Thanks!

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on January 13, 2005, 02:15:45 pm
wow everybody is doing a fantastic job.  I just have one question about the 4 ways.  Why not get the 4-8 ways you know the one you can change back and fourth.  Im sure you guys have this all figured out I was just asking for myself.

Once again great job on getting all this togther. You guys rock
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 13, 2005, 02:55:29 pm
You know, now that I think about it, it will probably be a better idea to use an 8way for the d-pad movement since some games do require you to move diagonally. I think the competition stick is also a bit better quality than the ultimates. I will look further into this, and I have sent an email to the Happs rep and I should be getting an answer tonight or tomorrow morning.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 13, 2005, 05:06:09 pm
We might also consider the Universal stick to allow switching back and forth - http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/50604800.htm
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on January 14, 2005, 12:48:13 am
isnt there a stick that has a little lever on the top of the mounting plate that lets you move it to a 4 or 8 way?


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Lord Xane on January 14, 2005, 03:37:46 pm
Hey everyone, I am new to this board and I know I'm the millionth person to say something like this, but what you are all doing is awesome.  I am also a quadriplegic looking for a video game controller so I have just a few questions that you might have answered in some of the previous pages.  Are you making just a one-time controller or are you making a design that you plan to duplicate?  And if you are duplicating it do you have any idea how much it will cost for materials or construction fee or whatever the heck you decide to charge?  I'll be keeping up on here!  Good luck
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 14, 2005, 03:44:15 pm
Hey everyone, I am new to this board and I know I'm the millionth person to say something like this, but what you are all doing is awesome.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on January 15, 2005, 05:53:10 am
Very exciting news!

I'd be happy to mirror and promote your finished plans permanantly on my Public Domain "D.I.Y. assistive technology" pages, with your agreement:

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/DIY/index.htm

Best wishes with it, and good on you all,

Barrie
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on January 15, 2005, 06:51:15 am
Thought you may all be interested in the following links:

www.atariage.com/magazines/magazine_page.html?MagazineID=54&CurrentPage=6 (http://www.atariage.com/magazines/magazine_page.html?MagazineID=54&CurrentPage=6)
The article is from the UK Atari owner's club, featuring a guy with Muscular Dystrophy playing games with an adapted Atari controller in 1982.

And this from 1981: www.quadcontrol.com/about.htm (http://www.quadcontrol.com/about.htm)

Good old Atari...
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: jsco on January 16, 2005, 03:26:06 pm
1hookedspacecadet,

How do you plan on interfacing the Happ analog stick with the Platstation?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Redseven80 on January 16, 2005, 10:39:53 pm
You guys are truly awesome. Such a nice thing you guys are doing!

Yeah that really is, I think it shows a lot about the people on this forum. :D
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: danny_galaga on January 17, 2005, 12:04:51 am
 i watched this thread from early on and im finding it hard to tell whats happened so far. can someone summerise the basics?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 17, 2005, 12:13:08 am
1hookedspacecadet,

How do you plan on interfacing the Happ analog stick with the Platstation?

Hiub1 has been spearheading the happ analog to ps2 interface.  We will be sure to post notes as we go.

Danny, right now we are about to place an order with happs for the analog and other sticks.  I am finishing up the cabinet design so we can make a mockup for sean to put his hands on then the final build.  Hope that helps.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: danny_galaga on January 18, 2005, 11:14:38 pm
sure does (",)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 20, 2005, 07:16:36 am
Update;

1. I am working on the mockup now, Hiub1 was going to do it but I found that I needed to in order to work through a few issues with the design.  The final plans will depend on Sean's final input based on the mockup.  This portion is going a bit slow, but this is the price of fatherhood especially during "teething season."  I am shooting to have something complete by end of the weekend, but as always I can only do my best.

2. Regarding the Pelican sticks. The one used for testing (i.e. the one used to determine it would not work in true analog mode) will be kept for parts if needed as will the two gamepads purchased to date.  The second Pelican (unopened) is being resold to Arcadiac for the cost + shipping that was paid from the Sean CP account.  Arcadiac will be depositing these funds into the account posted by Saint. **Saint, please let me know when it is posted***  I will cover shipping to send it along to him.  When the dust settles, if we have leftover parts (i.e. the first pelican and the spare gamepad, we can sell or ebay those to recoever the funds for Sean's account).

3. We have heard from Happs regarding the analog sticks, we needed the ultimate handle sticks with the 100k pot option only currently offered for the analog sticks with the "regular" handle.  They needed to internally create a new part number etc to do this.  They will do so but the sticks will be non-returnable.  We believe we need them and that they will work so we would like to order them as well as a pair of Universal (4-way/8-way) sticks, 4 buttons, and some carriage bolts from Happs.  I may add a couple of cherry switches with armatures (like the ones used for coin mechs) to that order for the  pressure switches we talked about near the wrist to emulated the ps2 switches activatedby pressing down on the analog sticks of the gamepad)  I will compile the part numbers, prices, etc for Saint to order through the company that is donating the Happs parts.

4. Currently Sean is MIA. I have sent a couple of emails and pms with no response.  After posting this I will be sending a note to Sea Monkey to see if he has had any luck contacting Sean to see whats up.

5. PS2/Mame - The current plan is to "double-wire" the cp for both MAME and PS2.  The CP will basically be used on the platform to which it is plugged in at any given time.

6. CPO - When we finalize the layout, I would like to put a nice CPO on the CP. If anyone is willing to whip up a cool design when we get there, please let me know.


My biggest concern right now is that Sean is not checking in.  Arcadiac reminded me that it takes longer for folks in Sean's situation to get settled in to new digs, but it has been a while and I will feel better when I get some word that he is ok etc.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on January 20, 2005, 11:06:50 pm
Yes Sean is alive and well. He has moved to the east side, so he is quite a drive from me.

I have been working 12 hour days, due to the season of the industry I am in, but things should settle soon.

I had Christmas and New Years open for him because they are Holidays. Other than that, when I go see him, I am taking a day off, so it won't be weekly for a while.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 21, 2005, 12:05:08 am
Shopping...


http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/universal_joy.htm!

Price = 2 for $31.40 plus shipping

[edit] Surprised I could not find any reviews on the universal stick.


We can get the Ultimarc T-stik; It switches from above by pulling up and twisting.  They also have a ball-top version, but I think we should stick with one style.

http://ultimarc.com/controls.html

Price = 2 for $63.00 shipped

This from RetroBlast, looks like it has a short throw too, but may actually be a plus - http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/ultimarc_tstik.html

"The T-Stik plus is a "short-throw" joystick, meaning the range of motion is much less than a typical joystick: for example, while the Happs Competition joystick has a "travel" of 15 degrees, the T-Stik Plus only moves about six degrees off of the perpendicular.
The T-Stik Plus also only engages about 1 degree before the end of the range of motion. This, combined with the short travel, produces a sensation which can throw off gamers accustomed to the relatively generous range of motion of the Happ joysticks, which engage roughly half-way through their travel.

So, is this "short-throw" motion good or bad? Neither
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 21, 2005, 12:27:43 am
Yes Sean is alive and well. He has moved to the east side, so he is quite a drive from me.

I have been working 12 hour days, due to the season of the industry I am in, but things should settle soon.

I had Christmas and New Years open for him because they are Holidays. Other than that, when I go see him, I am taking a day off, so it won't be weekly for a while.

Ok, I got the pm.   Thanks and don't be takin' no days off!   :-\ (until we reaaallly need you to...)
Title: Seans Returned
Post by: RetroJames on January 21, 2005, 07:45:41 am
FYI: Got word from Sean with a number.  He is ok and now living with a roomate. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 21, 2005, 09:38:39 am
Then you have the GGG Prodigy that switches from the top with a lever, very good for Sean.  It only comes with a "euro" ball-top shaft though.  [EDIT] I see now it also comes in a retro ball top as well as a topfire version -

GrooyGameGear.Com Link (http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi?ud=NUZUSlhUM05FVCUlJSUlJTExMDYzMTIzNzgA&storeid=1&c=search.htm&categories=0029)

http://www.groovygamegear.com/page14.html

[EDIT] - KevSteele just forwarded a link to his review of the prodigy, thanks Kev!

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/prodigy.html


If short throw turns out to be a plus in Sean's case I can attest that the Prodigy, IMO, is the best short throw stick on the market. Also I'm guessing that it would be easier for Sean to move the switch to change between 4 way/ 8 way than it would be for him to use one of the pull up to swich type of switchable sticks.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 24, 2005, 09:35:35 am
Update:

The mock-up is nearly complete, pics tommorow

Also, I have drafted my Mother-in-Law's sewing skills.  She and I came up with a rough plan for the beanbag.  It will be removable via velcro and will have baffles inside the overall footprint to keep the beans in line.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 25, 2005, 08:26:56 pm
Getting fancy with the beanbags man ;)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 26, 2005, 07:13:08 am
Re: Prodigy Joysticks

For the PS2, I don't think a dedicated 4-way is required, but for lots of MAME games it definitely will be.

I can only compare the Prodigies to a PC joystick and the arrow keys, but I can say that I beat or tied my high scores on Time Pilot, Top Gunner and Pac-Man on my first game using these sticks.  Highly recommended for MAME.
Title: Sean Cp: Updates
Post by: RetroJames on January 26, 2005, 09:40:09 am
Ok some news:

First, David from http://dave.bit2000.com/aki.html has generously offered an AKI analog encoder for this project.
Title: Re: Sean Cp: Updates
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 26, 2005, 09:46:14 am
Probably too much for his limited range
of motion.

Kevin[/i]
Point of concern here - I am not sure whether Sean has a limited range of motion as much as limited motor skills and limited fine control.  They are not the same problems and should probably influence the selection of controls.
Title: Re: Sean Cp: Updates
Post by: RetroJames on January 26, 2005, 10:10:26 am
Probably too much for his limited range
of motion.

Kevin[/i]
Point of concern here - I am not sure whether Sean has a limited range of motion as much as limited motor skills and limited fine control.
Title: Re: Sean Cp: Updates
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 26, 2005, 10:25:41 am
Can you elaborate on the distinction?
Okay, I'm not a doctor, but to my interpretation

Limited range of motion -  I cannot move my arms (fingers, etc.) more than 2 or 3 inches, but they move exactly where I tell them when I tell them to.

Limited motor skills or Limited fine control - Could be either or a combination of:

1)  Sometimes my arm moves forward when I want it to go right, or more likely it moves 5 inches when I meant to move 3 or 3 inches when I meant to move 5.

2)  I can move my fingers and wrist when desired, but I can't move my fingers and wrist together to open a soda bottle, or I can move my left and right arm independently but I can't raise my right arm and lower my left at the same time.

NOTE:  None of this is meant as poking fun at anyone with disabilities, I am just trying to post simplified examples that all might understand.

From what I read of this post, Sean has more fine control than range of motion issues - he said he can scratch his head, for example.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 26, 2005, 10:34:45 am
I think .. and this is all theory ... that the force or pressure is the issue at least for the Prodigy/T-stik choice. 

Can Sean apply enough force or pressure to grip the stick, twist and pull in order to switch from 4way to 8way.  Based on his input to date and the fact that we don't have a t-stik to have him try it is a quesion that at this time cannot be answered. 

On the prodigy however, based on his input and the feedback from Randy T and Kevin Steele as well as Kevin Steele's video reviews of the prodigy, I am 99% certain Sean can operate the switching lever.

Based on SeaMonkey's visit and Sean's comments you pounted out, I think he has decent range of motion, at least enough to operate the joysticks.  I don't think we have really discussed Sean's fine control though and it is not an issue I had considered.  Good points.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 26, 2005, 10:48:52 am
I think .. and this is all theory ... that the force or pressure is the issue at least for the Prodigy/T-stik choice. 
Okay, I like the Prodigies and think they are great sticks for MAME. But in fairness to Sean, let me play devil's advocate here a bit.  From what I remember, Sean said he had good use of his hands/wrists, but limited control of his fingers.

The T-Stik requires the stick to be lifted and twisted, however, gripping the handle requires very little finger control.

The Prodigy requires a lever to be shifted, however the knob (extension) of the lever is fairly thin, and the lever is fairly stiff - not a problem in normal use, but I'm not going to say how easy it would be to activate for a disabled person.

The bottom line is that we really don't know without more information . . .
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 26, 2005, 11:02:43 am
Another item I wanted to reintroduce to the discussion is the remapping of controls.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 26, 2005, 12:52:00 pm
Another item I wanted to reintroduce to the discussion is the remapping of controls.  I have sent a note to a local electrical engineer for input on this issue and am adding the text of that request below.
I could have told you as much as he said.

Here are your programmable arcade interface issues -

First, the available interfaces are hacked PS2 pad, X-arcade encoder, I-PAC, Keywiz, or some combination (parallel wiring to a hacked PS2 pad and an I-PAC, possibly with a select switch, for example).  Of these I think the hacked pad is probably the best bet, but more details below: 

Playstation2 -  Some games let you re-map controls.  What would be nice is an interface that allows you to remap the controller - i.e. Button 1 is Square, or Button 1 is X, or Button 1 is Circle, etc.  I don't think anyone makes one.  The KeyWiz wouldn't work, the I-PAC has a USB option and the PS2 has a USB port, but I think the I-PAC would be identified as a keyboard and not useable by the PS2, the X-Arcade encoder could work and is programmable, but I think the programmability is only for the keyboard mode for PC gaming.  The desired level of programmability would require probably a custom encoder chip, new software, and a designer intimately familiar with PS2 signal paths and formats.  Even then, you might end up with a programmable PS2 controller that couldn't be used for PC games - - -

MAME - As mentioned, MAME is easily reprogrammed to any keyboard or joystick button, so just about any interface will work.  In the case of the hacked PS, you would be connecting through a USB adapter.

PC Games - While many PC games allow assignable inputs, most are looking at keyboard and not joystick/gamepad interfaces, so the PS2/hack to USB adapter probably won't work.  The only thing that could work for both PC games and PS2 (other than parallel interfaces) would be the X-Arcade, but it has limited PC programability, I don't think it has PS2 programabilty, and I'm less than impressed with it overall.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 26, 2005, 12:55:24 pm
You misunderstood to a degree - the note i posted was what I sent to him, he has not replied.  I was posing the question to him because of his experience in creating the Tokn16 ps/2 keyboard encoder -

"The desired level of programmability would require probably a custom encoder chip, new software, and a designer intimately familiar with PS2 signal paths and formats."
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: rerstad on January 26, 2005, 02:32:33 pm
As to the Prodigy/T-Stik, I have both on my cocktail and the T-Stik is a bit difficult to switch, plus you can't tell which mode it's in without lifting and turning to see if you meet resistance.  The mounting plate on the prodigy may be a bit big, but I mounted mine on a metal cp without the plate by drilling the right size hole for the stick and cutting a groove for the switch--cut down on the required space quite a bit.  You could also turn the Prodigy 90 degrees one way or another so the switch is more out of the way of Sean's hands and/or the switch is more accessible.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on January 26, 2005, 03:34:08 pm
Remapping problems:

Playstation remapping: Would be great to find a cure for this. The ideal one would be if all games had the facility to remap controls. Sadly game designers don't realise how useful this is to many disabled gamers. It's also very useful to be able to assign multiple functions to individual buttons. I know of a number of disabled gamers who can only play video pinball games by assigning both flippers to a single switch.

I can only suggest a simple solution, that is far from ideal. You could build a patch bay on the back of the controller. From this a helper could re-wire the controller by using patch leads to suit Sean. Of course - not ideal as Sean can't do this independently.

PC remapping: JoyToKey is a great free utility that allows you to assign key presses to joystick functions. It won't work with every game, but it's a good fix for many: http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA016823/joytokey/english.html

Good luck!

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 26, 2005, 04:33:10 pm
I believe that any remapping problems faced with the PC can be fixed with software. The PSX or PS2 will be the problem here. Are there any fully programable pads out there for the ps2? This could be what we need, but I am not sure if there are any in existence. This way we would already have any hardware/software needed to do the button remapping. Then again, that would probably be a complicated pad and not sure if it would be very easy to hack.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 27, 2005, 07:55:51 am
Just some random thoughts here:

PS2 - Expanding on Skallagrigg's thoughts - I'm not real familiar with it, but it might be possible to come up with some type of 10-position four pole switch which Sean could activate, which would change which input the buttons activate, thereby remapping the controller.  Problems -

There are basically 14 buttons to re-map so the number of permutations to hit any possible combination is pretty unfeasible.

I have only played 7 or 8 PS2 games, but the most used controls overall are probably (in order):

Left Analog Stick
X Button
Circle Button
Triangle Button
L1 Button
R1 Button
Start Button
Square Button
D-pad
Right Analog Stick
L2 Button
R2 Button
L3 Button
R3 Button

And sadly, while the first buttons are the most common ones, many games use all the buttons (or even combinations) for SOME functions.

For PC games, the lack of inputs with a PS2 hack and lack of buttons may be a problem.  I have successfully integrated two Train Simulators with arcade controls (MSTS and TRS2004) and both used every bit of the 32 KeyWiz inputs and all but maybe 10 of the shifted inputs.  Games like Falcon 3.0 use about 40 input keys EACH with Shift, Alt, and Ctrl modifiers, so a total of around 100 inputs.

These are all older or simpler games, so the trend could be worse with newer games.

Counter-point: many of the newer games - like TRS2004 - also make extensive use of mouse controls, so I could get by with less inputs and use the mouse, but it might be difficult for Sean to navigate to the specific point on the screen and click and drag the mouse in a timely manner . . .
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 08:50:54 am
Minor update:

Wife absconded with digital camera today, no pics 'till  tonight. 

Got the joysticks in postion and at the correct height based on Happs and RandyT's input (2.50" from cp to joystick top(s)). 

I had to move the sticks about 1" apart and 1" forward (away from Sean) in order to compensate for the Prodigy 5" square and Happs 6" square mounting plates.  It looks good and feels ok though, hopefully it will not cause any issues.



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 27, 2005, 09:31:50 am
You could also turn the Prodigy 90 degrees one way or another so the switch is more out of the way of Sean's hands and/or the switch is more accessible.

That's a very good point.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 27, 2005, 11:07:27 am
I dunno if this would be helpful in the ability to remap controls, but there is a controller called Gamester FPS Master (http://www.gamesterusa.com/ps2fpsmaster.html).

It has a little LCD screen, and allows you to remap any of its buttons to a different one, and it has storage for 3 preset configurations.

I dunno how hard it would be to hack this for arcade controller use. I have an Xbox version in which the right trigger physically broke. I can take it apart, and snap some pictures of its internals if there is some interest. The customization options it offers are pretty excellent.



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 27, 2005, 07:01:03 pm
Tiger-Heli: It seems that Sean is able to use a computer to some extent from his posts on here. If you think about it, all the games you mentioned are either turn based or strategy games, and they do not require very fast actions or movements. Obviously they do require a good number of buttons or keys, so that would most likely not work with the controller we are designing. I am not entirely sure since I have never met Sean, but it seems that he would be more interested in using this controller to play action or sports games, where quick button presses and movements are needed. It would seem pointless to use this controller with a game that requires key presses and the use of a mouse. Building on your theory, it would be possible to use a 4 port DB25 switch to switch between 4 key configurations. This wouldn't be the best way to go about doing this, but at least it would allow us to have 4 custom maps for the buttons. It would not be too hard to implement either, but it does have its limitations.

Thank you all for the input, it is really helping this project materialize.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on January 27, 2005, 09:52:42 pm
I too have been following this thread with great interest for personal reasons, my son Kevin is disabled and will benefit from the ideas collected here.  Keep in mind however that Sean's original request is for a Playstation 2 adapted controller using arcade style controls (see Sean's post #1), not a PC or Arcade/M.A.M.E. controller.
All input is respected and appreciated, just keep the original project in mind, helping us to keep focus on the project at hand.  One set of needs and project at a time. 
Hopefully this will be the beginning of various projects, all aiming to help those with different abilities be able to participate in what many of us take for granted, and that's enjoying gaming!   ;D  Thanks All, Respectfully, ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - Mockup Pics
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 09:53:32 pm

Ok, got the digicam back -


Pic 1: You can see the original position of the joysticks (small circles) and of course the new positions


Pic 2: Front of the cp is 5" high, rear is 4" high.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - More Mockup Pics
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 09:54:05 pm


I need to add a small lip around the edges as we will have a 1/4" to 1/2" protrusion around the top of the cp with t-molding

Obviously there is a ways to go, I had to sort out the sticks first as everything else really depends on thier positions
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - More Mockup Pics
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 09:54:44 pm
Pic 1: In case you were wondering, that's a good example of that "new trigonometry" you have been hearing about.


Pic 2: Those blue bushings on the joysticks are specialty parts from Happs, email me if you need the part numbers.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 09:55:14 pm

These pics show templates for the GGG prodigy and happs analog mounting plates and should illustrate why the sticks had to be moved.

The happs analog has an ultimate style handle, but the prodigy is the euro style.  I only did this on one side of the mockup as I only have one spare handle in that ultimate style.

Randy T at GGG actually has new retro balltop sticks comming out, but I want to go with the "euro" tops as that will make both sticks the same height.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 10:08:47 pm
I too have been following this thread with great interest for personal reasons, my son Kevin is disabled and will benefit from the ideas collected here.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 27, 2005, 10:18:46 pm
That is great progress man! I am very exited to get the ball rolling on this!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 27, 2005, 10:29:53 pm
That is great progress man! I am very exited to get the ball rolling on this!

I feel we are gaining on the crest of this hump, soon we will be picking up speed.

I really wish I could be showing something a bit more slick, like the mockup made out of toothpicks or something, but it is very difficult to do this considering baby.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on January 27, 2005, 10:34:07 pm
Great progress James and Co., keep up the good work, "show-off!"   :o  ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 28, 2005, 09:57:39 am
The mockup looks good. My only concern would be weight. At this point has anyone made an estimate of what the final CP will weigh? Does Sean have enough upper body strength to be able to lift it unassisted? It would kind of stink if he had to get help to get it on his lap, and off again for breaks. This is only speculation, since I don't know if it's really even a concern, for all I know Sean can lift a Buick over his head. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 28, 2005, 10:11:20 am
The mockup looks good. My only concern would be weight. At this point has anyone made an estimate of what the final CP will weigh? Does Sean have enough upper body strength to be able to lift it unassisted? It would kind of stink if he had to get help to get it on his lap, and off again for breaks. This is only speculation, since I don't know if it's really even a concern, for all I know Sean can lift a Buick over his head. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

-S

We dont have a good idea on that issue though I have been thinking about it.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: walls83 on January 28, 2005, 11:16:03 am
Great work that is looking fantastic.. I can see why the wieght would be an issue maybe something like this could work.


http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/210000/213600/213651/Products/6314903.jpg


The only issue would be I think having casters that you could lock down so it wouldnt move around.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 28, 2005, 12:01:35 pm
Anyone see my post about the control remapping?


This thread seemed to have jumped a lot from that post rather quickly. :)



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 28, 2005, 12:03:11 pm
Anyone see my post about the control remapping?


This thread seemed to have jumped a lot from that post rather quickly. :)





Yes, it is still a ball in play.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 28, 2005, 12:14:47 pm
Yeah, I was referring to this post I made after that one. :)

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,28718.msg263818.html#msg263818

I guess it did get lost in the suffle. heheh

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 28, 2005, 01:22:28 pm
oops, might have.  yes pics wuld be cool if you can.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: quadmasta on January 29, 2005, 12:53:54 pm
That Xbox controller may just be the answer.  It's got the exact same number of buttons and types of control sticks that the PS2 has.  Also there's an adapter available that lets you play your PS2 with your Xbox controller.  In the MAME aspect, there's also a Xbox to USB adapter commercially available.  From what I know about Xbox controller modding, there's the exact same number of wires in a Xbox controller cable as there are in a USB cable and they correspond with the same colors (Xbox controller is a USB based controller with a built in USB hub) so in the BYO spirit we could fashion one ourselves :)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 29, 2005, 02:58:27 pm
There is a PS2 version of that controller also, so no conversion will be necessary, other than to play on PC.


I will get some pictures of its insides up tonight. It is definitely one MF to take apart. heh


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 29, 2005, 03:04:31 pm
Tiger-Heli: It seems that Sean is able to use a computer to some extent from his posts on here.
Sean uses a computer with voice-recognition software, so his abilitly to press rapid button games is questionable (no offense intended)
Quote
If you think about it, all the games you mentioned are either turn based or strategy games, and they do not require very fast actions or movements.
Not sure which games you mean, the PC games I mentioned were Simulations.  MAME seems easier for me to control and seems like it would logically be easier for Sean to master.  The PS2 games I was referring to (I didn't list them) are sports games - NFL 2K5, (not sure of the other titles, NBA 2K something, MLB 2K something, Strike force bowling, several car racing games).  Of these, most require almost all the buttons on the controller for some actions.  Bowling requires the least, but it still uses the left analog stick, d-pad, start, and two buttons.
Quote
Building on your theory, it would be possible to use a 4 port DB25 switch to switch between 4 key configurations. This wouldn't be the best way to go about doing this, but at least it would allow us to have 4 custom maps for the buttons. It would not be too hard to implement either, but it does have its limitations.
That's an idea, although it seems like the project may be leaning toward that FPS controller now . . .
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 30, 2005, 10:42:59 am
Sorry it took me so long to get this up.

(http://ldgonzales.home.comcast.net/fps_master.jpg)

The RED tags are the control remapping buttons, and the YELLOW tags are the actual controls.

Other than the fact that it is not all on one tidy PCB, it looks like it would be extremely easy to hack for arcade controls.




Follow this link for the high res view:
http://ldgonzales.home.comcast.net/fps_master.jpg


[EDIT]
Upon further inspection, it looks like all the extension PCB's could be removed, as all they are is something hard for the controllers buttons to press against. Could easily just put the arcade buttons to the wires going to them instead, so I guess it would be one tidy PCB. :)

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 30, 2005, 11:34:50 am
Also, I just want to make clear, that ANY control button can be remapped to ANY other control button, as well as to the d-pad.

The analog sticks can't be remapped, but they can be inversed.




[EDIT]
Hmmmmmm

Seems this post, bumped us to a new page. See the last post on the prior page for the picture of the controllers inside's.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on January 30, 2005, 01:37:35 pm
Hi -

When you say the analogue sticks can be inversed, does this mean you can have the left stick functioning as the right stick, and vice versa?

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 30, 2005, 01:49:35 pm
Nope

It just means that the up & down can be swapped on which ever stick you choose to swap it on. LEft stick will alwafs be left, and right will always be right.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on January 30, 2005, 10:14:05 pm
WOW that is some great info Versapak. Now, what you need to verify is if the pad has a single common ground. I.E. Any ground on any of the PCB's work with all the other buttons. If that is the case, then I think we found exactly what we need!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 30, 2005, 10:30:20 pm
Will bust out the multimeter and get back to ya in a couple. :)


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 30, 2005, 10:37:53 pm
WOW that is some great info Versapak. Now, what you need to verify is if the pad has a single common ground. I.E. Any ground on any of the PCB's work with all the other buttons. If that is the case, then I think we found exactly what we need!

I am MOST impressed and have allocated a spot for an LED screen on the mockup... ;)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 30, 2005, 11:08:37 pm
hmmmmm

Well...

As usual, I didn't put my mutimeter away last time I used it, meaning the wife did.

This may take me some time to find, so it will either be later, after I can manage to find it, or tomorrow, after she wakes up. :)


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on January 31, 2005, 12:34:29 pm
I finally found the darn thing. I put it away in the drawer with all my controllers lol


Anyway...

They all do share a common ground.



[EDIT]
I edited the picture to show the common ground.



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: quadmasta on January 31, 2005, 02:05:35 pm
that FPS master PS2 controller for $22.50 plus shipping.  http://www.nulime.com/product.php?productid=61463
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on January 31, 2005, 02:57:04 pm
that FPS master PS2 controller for $22.50 plus shipping.  http://www.nulime.com/product.php?productid=61463

Out of stock. :(

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: krick on January 31, 2005, 04:34:19 pm

Out of stock. :(


Just did a search, there's a few on eBay.  One "buy-it-now".
http://search.ebay.com/fps-master

Amazon also has it...
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001CNMB6/
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - New Mockup Pics
Post by: RetroJames on January 31, 2005, 11:43:18 pm
Ok, here goes.

1. Note the select,start, etc buttons added in the center -

2. Obviously the shoulder button structure has been added.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic - new mockup pics
Post by: RetroJames on January 31, 2005, 11:44:26 pm
2
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 31, 2005, 11:45:16 pm
Closeups of the right side moveable buttons on  the mockup. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 31, 2005, 11:45:55 pm
Flaps up, Flaps down - these could just be bigger buttons etc.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on January 31, 2005, 11:46:52 pm
It was hard to take these two pics.  I was trying to illustrate the reason for the positioning of the pressure plates. 

I don't think I am getting the point across, but trust me, they are in a good spot.  A light tap on the pad and the input will be achieved.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 01, 2005, 12:13:05 am


Some thoughts -


1. The research and notes above about the FPS controller and the remapping capability that adds to the mix is awesome.  I did not have a chance to add it but if we keep the shoulder buttons on top, the led screen can be mounted at an angle in the center top portion of the structure.  Really cool.

2. I am not sold on the shoulder buttons.  I want to toss this out here for the group and Sean to consider. 

Since we now believe we have the capability to remap ANY controls to ANY controls, do we need the shoulder buttons? Certainly we can keep them for more options, but what if we removed the SB structure and just added a couple of big buttons for extra inputs? 

Just tossing out the thought, let me know what you all think.  I really wont have a better bead on them until Sean can try them out.

3. Not pictured is the sip and puff switch.  I do want to add one to the panel.  Remember that doing so will add two inputs, which sean could also map to shoulder button functions.

4. Not shown, 3.5 input jacks.  I wanted to have one jack for every input in a "patch panel" bank somewhere on the cp easily accessable for Sean to plug in another button or switch as desired.

Two related concerns

- if we can remap controls are the jacks needed?

- With the shoulder button structure ontop, there is no room left for a gnats a** much less a new button / switch anywhere else.  He could of course plug in with the cp off to the side, just curious if we really think they will be needed at this point.

Lastly, is it just me or top down is this thing is starting to look like a Tron interceptor....



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 01, 2005, 12:16:06 am

Out of stock. :(


Just did a search, there's a few on eBay.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on February 01, 2005, 01:01:57 am
Are the four main buttons (X,O,□,∆) getting put to a stick instead of buttons?

I am not too sure how often this would even come up, but it would make it impossible to press 2 buttons at the same time (well not impossible with diagonals, but the diagonals aren't necessarily the button combos you'd be wanting).

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on February 01, 2005, 11:49:28 am


Since we now believe we have the capability to remap ANY controls to ANY controls, do we need the shoulder buttons? Certainly we can keep them for more options, but what if we removed the SB structure and just added a couple of big buttons for extra inputs? 



Not sure I understand the question, but if you're asking if you can delete the buttons entirely, the answer is no. Some PS2 games do indeed make use of all twelve (or however many there are) buttons, both analog sticks and the d-pad.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on February 01, 2005, 01:08:21 pm
Getting rid of the SB structure.... What does Sean think? Perhaps a lot would depend upon how easy he would find the remapping process.

I'd personally add the 3.5mm sockets at the back as they add future flexibility - the sip-puff switches could go into them quite easily too.

Great work, by the way.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on February 01, 2005, 08:32:45 pm
EB in the mall where I live had 2 FPS Master controllers for PS2 for $15 each.



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: jsco on February 02, 2005, 05:04:25 am
Has anyone looked into the possibility of connecting the Happs analog sticks to the FPS Master controller? If we can not connect our analog sticks to the controller it is useless, right?

I've been talking to Dave (http://dave.bit2000.com/) about an alternative way of connecting the Happ's analog sticks to a console. He says that he might be able to adapt his AKI Analog Kontrol Interface to work with an Xbox. If he can pull this off I think it would be the best solution. You wouldn't need to take apart a FPS Master controller, and assembly would be significantly easier. An Xbox to Ps2 adaptor or a usb to Ps2 adaptor could be used to connect the AKI to the PlayStation. I will have to search some more to find the best adapter to use. 1hookedspacecadet and everyone else, what do you think about this? It might not be the best solution for a PS2 controller, but it would definitely work on an Xbox.

One downside to this would be the ability to remap the controls. The AKI does not have this functionality built into it. I know of two ways to overcome this. Like someone suggested earlier, we can route all of the buttons to the back of the controller and have a series of switches or a patch panel that would allow the user to manually rewire the buttons. A more elegant solution would be to add some type of hardware logic, maybe a simple cpld or something, that could handle the remapping. This is unfortunately beyond my level of expertise though.

The design of the cpld, in theory, is very simple. Have a separate control button that, when pressed, would tell the cpld the the following two button presses should be remaped. Like so...
[control] [button4] [button6]
Then the cpld rewires 4 and 6. Are there any engineers out there that could do this? Anyone know if there is a better way to implement hardware remapping?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on February 02, 2005, 07:57:52 am
From what I have gathered, PS2 is the priority here though.

All other functionality would just be a bonus.

As for getting actual analog functionality. The analog sticks on the PS2's FPS Master are the same as you would find on the Xbox version, and pretty much the same as are found on the standard Xbox controller.



[EDIT]

Yep, I just went back and read the first post in this thread, and PS2 is reason this controller is being built.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Lord Xane on February 02, 2005, 03:58:52 pm
Once again I think you guys are doing awesome, I just thought I'd stop in and put in my little input.  I am a C5 C6 quad and I personally think the shoulder buttons are really good.  I think PlayStation 2 is a good way to go because it has all the good RPG's, which are a little easier to control.  Definitely focus on finishing it up now and seeing what you can do for adapting it for other system later.  I know my little brother bought an adapter that allows him to plug his PlayStation 2 controller into an Xbox.  There might be something just as easy the other way around.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on February 03, 2005, 03:16:05 am
A Playstation controller is the best way to go if Sean ever wants to use other Games Consoles. I've a page up detailing all the adapters available (to my knowledge) for Playstation controllers:

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/1/playstation-adapters.htm


Ghosting problems. I imagine you already know, but with a ton of extra wiring, you may experience rogue button activations. It may help to add a single 1N4148 diode from the Ground of each microswitch leading any 3.5mm sockets you add.

All the best,

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk (http://www.OneSwitch.org.uki)

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: jsco on February 03, 2005, 11:26:04 am
Another idea would be to make it compatible with the x-arcade or i-paq. That way we could use the various console adapters those companies make. X-Arcade makes Xbox, PlayStation, GameCube, and Dreamcast adapters. I-PAQ has an Xbox adapter and is supposedly in the process of developing a PS2 adapter.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on February 03, 2005, 11:34:07 am
There are adapters to use PS2 controllers on pretty much everything, so I compatibility is not really a concern there.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on February 03, 2005, 05:58:47 pm
Hey guys. Sorry for not being up here as much as I should, but school has bogged me down a bit. Anyways. The news on the FPS controller are great indeed. This possibility will allow Sean much more freedom in the use of the controller.

By using a PS2 controller, the compatibility list greatly opens up since we can use adaptors to connect to almost any console or PC available. Theoretically, as long as we get the PS2 pad working right on the PS2, it should work with any other console with just the use of an adapter.

Has anyone looked into the possibility of connecting the Happs analog sticks to the FPS Master controller? If we can not connect our analog sticks to the controller it is useless, right?

I've been talking to Dave (http://dave.bit2000.com/) about an alternative way of connecting the Happ's analog sticks to a console. He says that he might be able to adapt his AKI Analog Kontrol Interface to work with an Xbox. If he can pull this off I think it would be the best solution. You wouldn't need to take apart a FPS Master controller, and assembly would be significantly easier. An Xbox to Ps2 adaptor or a usb to Ps2 adaptor could be used to connect the AKI to the PlayStation. I will have to search some more to find the best adapter to use. 1hookedspacecadet and everyone else, what do you think about this? It might not be the best solution for a PS2 controller, but it would definitely work on an Xbox.

One downside to this would be the ability to remap the controls. The AKI does not have this functionality built into it. I know of two ways to overcome this. Like someone suggested earlier, we can route all of the buttons to the back of the controller and have a series of switches or a patch panel that would allow the user to manually rewire the buttons. A more elegant solution would be to add some type of hardware logic, maybe a simple cpld or something, that could handle the remapping. This is unfortunately beyond my level of expertise though.

The design of the cpld, in theory, is very simple. Have a separate control button that, when pressed, would tell the cpld the the following two button presses should be remaped. Like so...
[control] [button4] [button6]
Then the cpld rewires 4 and 6. Are there any engineers out there that could do this? Anyone know if there is a better way to implement hardware remapping?

JSCO: The more possibilities we have to interface the controller, the better. The PS2 hardware has a standard that every controller must meet in order to function properly. This won't necessarily mean that the hardware used is the same, but it has to function in the same fashion. This is apparent in the difference between Sega branded DC controllers which use Hall Effect sensors to detect movement in the analog pad, compared to most aftermarket pads which use Pots to detect movement.

The FPS pad looks to use pots, and I believe they should be 10k pots just like on the other PS2 pad that I looked at. The pot Resistance will not really matter, since we are getting 2 analog joysticks with 100k pots that we can adjust to a lower Resistance value. It would be great if Dave could come up with an interface, but it seems to me that it would be a lot of extra effort to recreate something that we seem to have put together for us already with this FPS controller.

Other than that, I just bought a shiny new Dewalt DW621 Plunge router to start the project on a good note, and along with it came a Keller dovetail jig to make this box nice and strong. I can't wait to start putting this thing together!

Again I want to thank everybody for their input and ideas, without you guys the concept of remapable controls would still be up in the air!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: handiman28 on February 10, 2005, 05:37:50 pm
hi i'm a quadriplegic that's been looking for a controller to play games on the ps2 also. this is the controller i have and have been able to play games ok with it. the buttons are starting to not work well but even if i find another like it i still won't be able to play ps2 games with it.

i've read some post but i don't know if anyone has come up with any solutions and i don't know if seanwheels problems are similar to mine.

i'm a c-5 quad. i can use my shoulders, bicepts, the outside of my forearmes, and the top muscle on my right wrist towards my thumb

with my left on the joystick i hook my thumb to go left and up and push with my palm to go right and hook my fingers to go back.
with my right i press the buttons with my pinky with my hand upright.
i'm not able to hit more than one button at a time unless they are right next to each other (i was still able to wind up a haymaker on my friends in the first ring kings game and knock their a$$es out!)

if i can help with anything please let me know. i can give input, do drawing,
see if i can understand more of what sean needs cus i would also love to see if someone out there could make a control that quads could use for the ps2.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 10, 2005, 06:32:12 pm
Welcome to the show handiman!  We are shipping the mockup to Sean and waiting on some vendors to get in line but we should be building soon.  Please stay tuned as we  will be making the plans public once finished for all to benefit. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on February 11, 2005, 04:22:39 am
Hi handiman,

What about an X-arcade? http://www.x-arcade.com/

(http://www.x-arcade.com/images/1-player-console.jpg)

The joystick can be set to act as a d-pad, or either analogue sticks. Works great with most PS2 games, and most other games consoles too with an adapter.

The difficulty you may find is in the shape of the joystick? And also, in switching the joystick mode. To do this you need to hold down the side button, then press one of the top buttons. Is there anyway that you could activate two switches at a time (e.g. by using a sip/puff switch and a button)? I would imagine a simple fix could be made if so to enable easier mode switching.


You may also be interested in the following adaptation that I'm working on:

http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/DIY/x-arcade.htm

It's out being tested at present, but results are pretty positive so far.

By the way, I have a number of the ASCII sticks you have been using in stock if you are struggling to get an exact replacement.

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk (http://www.OneSwitch.org.uk)

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 11, 2005, 11:36:44 am
Are the four main buttons (X,O,□,∆) getting put to a stick instead of buttons?

I am not too sure how often this would even come up, but it would make it impossible to press 2 buttons at the same time (well not impossible with diagonals, but the diagonals aren't necessarily the button combos you'd be wanting).



Even with buttons, I think it would not be easy for Sean to hit two buttons at the same time. At some point in the design, we will have to accept a small margin of diminished returns.

Sean himself put forward the joystick mapped to the button functions.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: handiman28 on February 11, 2005, 03:51:07 pm
hey skall, i think the x-arcade might work for me. i'll have to try one out and see.

the joystick doesn't look like it will be a problem, but you never know.
as far as the button to change modes, if it's that button on the left that
you can kinda see i can probably glue a cylender peice on that button to make it stick out far enough to hold it and press another button at the same time.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on February 11, 2005, 06:29:13 pm
Quote
Even with buttons, I think it would not be easy for Sean to hit two buttons at the same time. At some point in the design, we will have to accept a small margin of diminished returns.

Sean himself put forward the joystick mapped to the button functions.


Ahhhh I C

I imagine he isn't playing the kind of twitch action games that would require such presses anyway.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 15, 2005, 09:08:45 am
Yeah. I imagine the controller as it looks now, will open up a world of games for Sean. Even if he can't play 5% of the games out there, that is still a 95% increase on what he can effectively play.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 17, 2005, 07:20:27 am
All,

The CP is going out this weekend to Sea Monkey by hook or crook. 


Next, someone contacted me about the FPS controller in that they had one for the project.  Please contact me again as I cannot find the PM so we can arrange shipping and reimbursment.  Thanks!

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: CMIVXX on February 18, 2005, 01:58:20 am
Hello all.  I have been away for a while and this thread caught my eye right out of the box. 

I just wanted to let you all know that you are about the coolest group of people I have ever had the pleasure to (almost) being a part of.  The fact that you guys would bust out and do something like this just to bring a little pleasure to someone's life is about the most truly heart-warming thing I've read about in a long time.  If only I hadn't been away so long, I would have tried my best to help.  I just hope you all realize how special you all are for opening your heart to people in need.

Sean:  I wish you all the best, and I will say a prayer for you.

Thank you all for my enlightening experience for the evening.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Hiub1 on February 18, 2005, 10:20:15 am
Thanks for the kind words man. 1hookedspacecadet, I sent you an e-mail yesterday with the prices and part numbers that we need, so we can get the order in with that. Other than that, I will be waiting to get the FPS controller and look into what we can do with that. Progress is going good, let's keep it up.

Thanks again everybody for all the help, this project would not be possible without all the help from everybody in this forum!

Fred.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 18, 2005, 10:27:39 am
Thanks for the kind words man. 1hookedspacecadet, I sent you an e-mail yesterday with the prices and part numbers that we need, so we can get the order in with that. Other than that, I will be waiting to get the FPS controller and look into what we can do with that. Progress is going good, let's keep it up.

Thanks again everybody for all the help, this project would not be possible without all the help from everybody in this forum!

Fred.

I saw the email, lets get the rest of this list together and off to Saint for ordering from Happs.  I need to check my email, In know we already have most of the list ready.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Bspill1 on February 21, 2005, 09:33:21 pm
MAN!!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: IntruderAlert on February 22, 2005, 02:40:23 pm
I don't know if this has been mentioned but there is a big list of specialised game controllers and links here:

http://www.cgexpo-uk.co.uk/forum/index.php?s=275c4ad9664a38f8e1ce36e95d4c103f&showtopic=95
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on February 26, 2005, 05:56:18 pm
Welcome to the board, BSpill1,

You can get 3.5mm sockets from www.rswww.com (http://www.rswww.com) - then search on "Miniature Jack Sockets".

Look forward to seeing some pics of your controller,

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on February 28, 2005, 12:20:53 am
FINALLY PACKAGED!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: scatter on March 03, 2005, 10:21:04 am
This topic actually hits on something that I have been looking into for a while. Is it possible to come up with an arcade (control panel) layout that is usable with a playstation 2's analog sticks.

What I mean is, most games require you to control stick with your thumbs while hitting buttons with fingers and thumbs, but on an arcade panel it would be difficult at best to play any current ps2 game with the anolog sticks requiring your whole hand to move. Now your left hand can only move the stick instead of being able to move the stick and press up to two other buttons at the same time.

Any ideas?

b
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on March 04, 2005, 12:36:41 pm
What about the Quasicon?:

(http://quasimoto.com/images/qcon_f.jpg)
http://quasimoto.com/

Looks expensive...

Barrie
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on March 04, 2005, 02:58:47 pm
That thing looks like a nightmare, even for those that are not physically handicapped. :P

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 04, 2005, 03:29:55 pm
Isn't that the Defender III panel?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on March 05, 2005, 05:55:19 am
 ;D

I agree, it looks intimidating. However, it's the only arcade stick I'm aware of with two analogue sticks.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 05, 2005, 12:12:05 pm
;D

I agree, it looks intimidating. However, it's the only arcade stick I'm aware of with two analogue sticks.

So far.... ;D
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on March 07, 2005, 11:37:46 pm
The package has arrived!

I will swing by and test it with Sean friday after work.
I will work extra hours this week so that I can be skating on OT by friday, and then leave at like 2 pm or so. Should work out perfect.

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 07, 2005, 11:58:06 pm
The package has arrived!

I will swing by and test it with Sean friday after work.
I will work extra hours this week so that I can be skating on OT by friday, and then leave at like 2 pm or so. Should work out perfect.



Awesome, that is great news.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on March 09, 2005, 06:51:23 am
Great work guys :)

I was gonna say that 3rd party ps2 controllers don't use the back stuff on buttons so you can easily solder onto the points for ise with buttons.

I do have some experience with this but not much.

My cousin was born with a stump so i made him a Playstation joystick which lets him use all the buttons with 1 hand easily and fast besides the start and select buttons.

What it is is just a joystick which has 4 buttons ontop which is controlled by the thumb (l1 l2 r1 r2) and where he grips the joystick the 4 fingers lay ontop of the 4 main buttons the XO etc buttons.

Looking at whats you guys have made im thinking of making him another 1 for ps2 where he uses his stump to control the 2 thumb pad things.

Also i think a good idea is to use some of the money left over to buy him some of the Arcade classics for ps2 for now till he uses mame if he does use it :)

I'm glad to see how friendly this communit has been and I wish i was there to help but im in australia :(

Still you guys have done a great job :) I hope sean is ok and you guys tested the panel already :)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on March 09, 2005, 11:22:22 am
What about the Quasicon?:

(http://quasimoto.com/images/qcon_f.jpg)
http://quasimoto.com/

Looks expensive...

Barrie

Expensive........I'll say.............$599 US..........Holy crap!!!!  :o
ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: handiman28 on March 09, 2005, 03:31:55 pm
i was wanting anyones opinion on the Super Pro Stick by MAS vs the x-arcade. are one of these better than the other?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on March 10, 2005, 11:38:58 am
That thing looks like a nightmare, even for those that are not physically handicapped. :P



Looks totally unusable to me, what a stupid looking layout, and those analog sticks are way too small. At $599 I can't see them moving very many of them.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on March 11, 2005, 01:26:26 pm
I have been unable to contact Sean. His phone says, "At the subscriber's request, this number does not accept incomming calls"

Um....

He is pretty far away in his new place, and even when we agree on a time to meet, it has been 50/50 that he is actually there. Anyone have an alternate number for Sean?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on March 11, 2005, 01:57:11 pm
Wow, my apologies for not seeing this thread earlier.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 11, 2005, 02:01:38 pm
I have been unable to contact Sean. His phone says, "At the subscriber's request, this number does not accept incomming calls"

Um....

He is pretty far away in his new place, and even when we agree on a time to meet, it has been 50/50 that he is actually there. Anyone have an alternate number for Sean?

I just tried with no luck, same message.  I have sent him an email and will let you know as soon as i hear back.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on March 11, 2005, 03:39:04 pm
Ok hard to follow all of these posts, but looks like you are still in the design layout stage.  I like the layout, looks pretty cool.  I would suggest you look at a mouth controller similar to what we did on Bspill's.  You don't have to compromise that way and will get nearly full functionality.  If the game doesn't need the shoulder buttons you don't even need to hook the mouth controller up if the circuit is designed correctly.

Here are my 2 biggest recommendations as they caused us the most difficulty.
1.  Find a PS2 controller with large solder pads.  Just makes the electronic work easier.
2.  Find a PS2 controller that is looking for 100k Ohm potentiometers in the analog sticks.

I can't stress how important item 2 will be.  If you are really good with a soldering iron the pad size can be worked around, but the resistance of the potentiometers can be a show stopper. 

The official PS2 controllers use 10k Ohm potentiometers for their analog sticks.  Unless you have very good connections with an electronics supply house you can not get 10k Ohm pots for the Happ Analog joysticks.  The Happ sticks have a choice of 5k Ohm or 100k Ohm pots.  5k is (or at least was) the standard for arcade games.  100k Ohm is what you will find in PC analog controllers.  These pots are special and you aren't going to find replacements at Radio Shack.  They are High Life meaning they will taking being turned a couple million times vs. the normal ones that are only rated between 5000 and 20,000 times.  The other special thing about them is that they only have 50 degrees of electrical rotation.  Meaning that as you turn from 0 to 360 degrees the resistance only changes from 155 degrees to 205 degrees.  So in the case of a 10k ohm pot 0-155 degrees = 0k resistance, and from 205 to 360 degrees it's 10k ohms.  At 180 it's at 5k Ohm and gradiant in the rest of the range from 155-205.  You will NOT find a replacement for the controller if you use 10k Ohm.  I managed to have some special made in Taiwan or something like that.  So you can pay $45/resistor and remember you need 2 per joystick and you will need to order at least 100 or more for them to do the special order.  You do the math.  In quantities of 1000 or more then you can get them for $5-$10/resistor and the price keeps going down once you get into the multiple 1000 order.  I only needed 2, so I almost scrapped the idea of the analog stick before  I got lucky and talked  an electronics manufacturer into getting me a "sample" of these made for free, (they had them made by hand in Taiwan) but that process took me about 2+ months to get it resolved and they were under the impression that there was a potential of this becoming a commercially available item and a subsequent large order would potentially be following once the prototypes were finished. 

Bottom line find a controller that is looking for 100k Ohms, they are out there as I realized when I bought a different controller for a different project.  This way you have the option of ordering the Happ with 100k pots or even using PC arcade analog stick as they also use 100k pots which would save you a ton of money in the short run if you can figure out how to mount them.  Bspill and I went with the analog stick from Happ as I wanted this to be easy to mount and last forever.  With all of the PS2 to whatever adaptors out there (xbox, gamecube) you should be able to use his controller on whatever as long as you have a good adaptor or worst case rip out hte controller and put in a next gen one.

I'll post some wiring diagrams in a bit as well to show the analog to digital circuit used in the mouth controller and the pinouts of the PS2 controller I worked on.

Hope this helps... if not just tell me to stop.   :-)

-Zinfari
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on March 11, 2005, 03:45:52 pm
Here is everything I wrote up and sent with the controller.

-Zinfari

-------------------------------

Analog Daughter Board Pinouts - (Viewed from the top of the board
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 14, 2005, 10:49:32 pm
Awesome info!  Keep it comming. 

The summary right now is;

We have sent a scale mockup to a member in Az who is to take it for a final check with Sean.  Once Sean oks the final design, we build. We are fully financed and have a shopping list ready to go, but...

Sean has become unreachable by phone or email.

We are all waiting for Sean to ping the board or one of us so we know what is going on.

No word yet on my end. :(

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on March 15, 2005, 04:40:41 am
Why don't u call the centre he is at or home whatever it's called and see if they will go tell him that a guy from BYOC is on the phone and if he will accept the call.

Best way to get through if his phone has been set to not take calls.

Just a thought  :)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 15, 2005, 07:27:39 am
Hemoved out and in with a roomate a while back.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on March 15, 2005, 10:38:47 am
That thing looks like a nightmare, even for those that are not physically handicapped. :P



Looks totally unusable to me, what a stupid looking layout, and those analog sticks are way too small. At $599 I can't see them moving very many of them.

-S

Actually, I'm going to disagree - I've used the Quasicon, and it's really quite nice. I don't think it's appropriate for this project, but it's actually really easy to use in gameplay.

You have to imagine an XBox or PS2 controller "flattened" out to see how the buttons are used.

If you want to see my full review (here's the Quasicon controller part of the Quasicade review):

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/quasicade_3.html

Video of the controller in action:

http://www.retroblast.com/videos/quasicade2.wmv

Kevin
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on March 15, 2005, 09:08:14 pm
Anyone know who makes the quaicon analog controllers?  I'm wondering if they might be a lower cost solution to the Happ ones.  They would definately take up less space and something could be rigged up to extend the handles, although this may lead to too much range of movement.... still interested if they are avail to the public.

-Zinfari
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on March 15, 2005, 10:04:10 pm
I'd like to get some more feedback from bspill, his friends as well on how his controller is working as from what I understand he has several friends who are interested in getting something similar as well as the person here.

Couple more ideas.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on March 15, 2005, 10:13:56 pm
Anyone know who makes the quaicon analog controllers?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 15, 2005, 10:50:23 pm
Just a thought / question...are the joysticks on motorized wheelchairs analog?  If so who makes them?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: NiN^_^NiN on March 16, 2005, 12:35:32 am
Hemoved out and in with a roomate a while back.

Ahh i knew that (i read the whole thread  ;D) but it didn't click that there was only 1 phone  ::) stupid me
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: BackAgain on March 16, 2005, 07:20:56 pm
Just a thought / question...are the joysticks on motorized wheelchairs analog?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on March 21, 2005, 02:41:57 am
Quote
1.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 24, 2005, 01:15:09 pm
still no word form Sean....

:(
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: versapak on March 24, 2005, 05:30:57 pm
Yeah...

I have the FPS Master controller ready to ship, but I decided to sit on it until we can get some word on progressing forward with this thing.

I hope everything is ok with him.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on March 28, 2005, 02:40:15 pm
Ultimarc have just released the A-PAC, an analogue/digital dual game pad interface for PCs. How fantastic would it be if such a thing existed for Playstations?

That was my thought exactly when I heard about the apac.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on March 30, 2005, 06:56:19 am
Sean not checking his email for a couple of weeks can't be a good thing.

With his cell set to not take messages, but not turned off....that's pretty odd.  I hope he isn't being taken by his new "room mate".
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 30, 2005, 09:49:20 am
Sean not checking his email for a couple of weeks can't be a good thing.

With his cell set to not take messages, but not turned off....that's pretty odd.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on March 30, 2005, 03:26:39 pm


Arcade doubles as source of therapy

Appleton Post Crescent - Appleton,WI,USA
... Walking past GameZone one day, she looked inside and was struck by the potential of the arcade's offerings for rehab purposes. ...

http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/local_20377105.shtml
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: oldsage on April 02, 2005, 05:49:01 pm
Just a thought / question...are the joysticks on motorized wheelchairs analog?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: kcorcoran on April 02, 2005, 09:36:38 pm
finally read this thread because i was bored and all i can add to it is..
i recently lost my cell phone.
when i called them to have it turned off until i found it or got a new one.. that was the message people got when they called it.

'at the customers request this phone does not accept incoming calls'

maybe he lost his phone. i mean, doesn't sound like this guy has the best luck to begin with.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on April 05, 2005, 12:17:40 am
I sent a letter to the home he was at, hoping for a forward and a reply....

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Felice on April 09, 2005, 07:47:31 pm
So Ultimarc build the A-pac-PCB, to combine analogue and digitals inputs. They also have an X-Box adapter; does this also work with the A-pac?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on April 09, 2005, 07:59:30 pm
So Ultimarc build the A-pac-PCB, to combine analogue and digitals inputs. They also have an X-Box adapter; does this also work with the A-pac?

I've talked to Andy about this - the XBox adapter does not work with the A-Pac.

Kevin
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: saint on April 09, 2005, 10:34:58 pm
People should start thinking about what they'd like done with the funds that have been donated but not spent so far, if this project has to unfortunately come to an end. There's no timeline on my end, but sooner or later a decision may need to be made . . .

--- saint

I sent a letter to the home he was at, hoping for a forward and a reply....


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on April 09, 2005, 10:57:41 pm
~
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on April 10, 2005, 12:50:23 am
When there is closure on Sean's project, I remind y'all that we could still use some help with a PS2 controller adaptation for my son Kevin. 
Thanks, ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Jabba on April 10, 2005, 09:29:06 pm
Sounds to me that Sean is nowhere to be found :'(
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on April 10, 2005, 11:21:36 pm
I vote to give Sean another 30 days to reply.
Not being very mobile, I am not sure how often he CAN check his email.
If he hasn't responded in another month's time, then I think there is no shame in knowing we did all we could, and move the focus of the project to somebody else.
Title: Single Switch Game Competition
Post by: skallagrigg on April 11, 2005, 03:09:41 am
Shame to hear that Sean is incommunicado... I shouldn't give up yet though. With Sean's run of luck, I'm guessing he'll surface again at some point. Brilliant work so far...


I've got some fantastic news from else where though on the accessible gaming front. RetroRemakes.com (http://www.RetroRemakes.com) are hosting a single switch game programming competition. Programmers have a month to create the best game/s they can that will be playable using a single switch. There are three prizes up for grabs, but a ton of kudos for all having a go. People's efforts will go to further the very small range of games playable with a single switch.

Competition rules here: http://www.retroremakes.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4043

Barrie
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: paigeoliver on April 11, 2005, 03:15:57 am
Funny to see that competition right after I bought an honest to goodness, "One key" arcade game. Drop Zone 4 consists of one button, which is labeled "Drop bomb".
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on April 12, 2005, 03:28:35 pm
Yep, all of these games are going to be free - which is amazingly generous of all of those taking part.

Full One Switch Competition threads here:

http://www.retroremakes.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=35
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Bspill1 on April 17, 2005, 06:28:45 pm
These one switch games are great!  I already posted links to them on a couple of spinal cord injury forums that I go to.  They don't fill the void of Halo or Mario cart for me but they're all some people need.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on April 19, 2005, 11:51:49 am
Anyone heard from Sean yet?

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on April 24, 2005, 12:46:31 pm
No word here - sorry I have been quiet - I had a small injury so I am moving kinda slow.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on April 24, 2005, 01:05:46 pm
No reply on my end either.  :(
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on May 11, 2005, 05:20:39 pm
Any news? Any plans to continue/alter this project?

Any idea if Sean is okay?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RetroJames on May 13, 2005, 10:40:46 pm
No word here.  I am sad to say I think this project has ended.  If Sean resurfaces, I am willing to start it back up, but if he does not I am going to take a step back.  Multiple issues are consuming my time right now so I cannot devote any in order to redirect our efforts.  As I said though, if Sean shows up, I will honor my commitment to building him a controller.

I am sad that it came to this, but I think we have made progress in any case for others to pick up the pieces.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on May 14, 2005, 01:01:45 am
When there is closure on Sean's project, I remind y'all that we could still use some help with a PS2 controller adaptation for my son Kevin.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Zinfari on May 16, 2005, 05:51:20 pm
Well let's move on.  Sounds like Arcadiac's son is looking for something similar.  Honestly what I would really love to see developed is the PS2 breakout board.  Basically a PS2 controller with no controls, just terminals for hookups.  There are so many people that could benefit from this and think of all of the crazy things that the community as a whole would use it for.

I have no idea what would go into something like this or if it's even doable within this group.  But if that were done, all the rest is trivial.  It's just hooking up wires at that point and determining the design that works best for the individual.  I do think we would end up with 2-3 different designs depending on the level of disability or how much they can afford (unless a low cost analog joystick solution is found.)

That's my 2 cents worth on what we should focus on at this point.  If that makes sense I'd say start a new thread on that and see what happens.

-Zinfari
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on May 16, 2005, 08:56:53 pm
I certainly think it would be a good idea to start a new thread for discussion of Arcadiac's son Kevin's needs. We can see what we have right now, and how easy/hard it would be to adapt the existing design over to Kevin's particular abilities.

There was such great excitement and momentum going on this project, I'd hate to see it fail now.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Bspill1 on May 18, 2005, 10:21:04 pm
Hate to see Sean not get his controller.  But, what can you do?  Not too many options but wait.

zinfari has the right idea.  Interfacing the PS/2 controller was my difficulty over a year ago when I hooked up with him.  Everyone's needs are very different.  Every game is also different.  The versatility a simple interface unit would offer could go a long way.  Doesn't seem to be an easy way around analog controllers though.

Finding help to mess with buttons and wires or build control boxes is much easier than finding help soldering wires up to the PS/2 controllers board.


Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on May 19, 2005, 01:22:53 am
Hi y'all, just checking in. 
Kev and I are going thru some retesting of sticks and games that he has here, particularly ones that he is having some limited success using as-is.  I can take some pics of him using various setups, although I believe that he primarily uses his left knee while kneeling on the floor to use the joystick and his right hand/thumb to pop the buttons that he uses to play the games with. 
Still seeking the solution for the PS2 analog sticks that others have mentioned here.  That's the toughest part.  He tried using the Pelican universal stick to play Doom3 on the Xbox he got for his b'day, was doing great until he had to try to aim up or down to press an elevator control button to move from level to level, just didn't work.  Damn frustrating as a parent to watch too, he just wants to play like anyone else.
Anyway, looks as if the consensus is to start a new thread for this, would y'all like for me to do it when I get more info on Kev's specific needs?
Thanks in advance for all your help, we will get back to this over the weekend hopefully.
ARCADIAC!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Apparelyzed on May 19, 2005, 05:46:33 am
Hi all,

I hope no body minds, but I've linked to this thread from my own forum at :

http://www.apparelyzed.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=357

I thought it may be of use to other Quad's who post such requests for adaptive technology in there, and want more in depth knowlege from your forum.

Best regards

Simon
c5/6 Quadriplegic.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: phildo77 on May 23, 2005, 07:25:39 pm
Looks like we've given up on Sean?  Just an FYI I live in Phoenix, AZ.  I noticed he said he was here.  Anyone have data that could help me find Sean or get me rolling on finding out what happened to him?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SeaMonkey on May 27, 2005, 12:34:51 pm
Well he was last spotted in Phoenix. You now know as much as we do.

Sean was in and out of the hospital a lot and battling multiple infections.

Now his cell is shut off and his mail isn't answered.
It is clear that nobody is reading email sent to him, so if he is okay, he no longer has the mobility it would take to reply. He had support here though, so I would have to think if he were okay he would have somebody read him his email. I have sent him my current phone number.

I fear the worst.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Stingray on May 27, 2005, 01:44:28 pm
I certainly do hope that Sean is okay and I'm sorry that he will not be getting his controller. Having said that though, speaking as someone who donated money to this cause, I'm 100% okay with the money going toward building a controller for Arcadiac's son.

-S
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: davieboynj on May 27, 2005, 05:17:28 pm
Sad topic...  funny how it brings out good in some / bad in others.

anyways,

Could the Happs 49 way joysticks be programmed to function as an analog stick?

I also now the Quasicade has something that works for analog.  I don't know really if they'd be good people to contact or not.  I have the X-arcade, and its not even easy for me to work as analog. 



Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: KevSteele on May 27, 2005, 05:46:03 pm
I also now the Quasicade has something that works for analog.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: davieboynj on May 28, 2005, 12:23:10 am
I'm sorry, I read the entire thread this time, and realized I skipped a lot of important pages.  Sorry for being redundant...
d


The Quasicon control panel has dual analog sticks in addition to a 8-way, and is compatible with PS2, XBox, Gamecube, and PC. The only problem I see with it would be the control placement (and the cost: Quasimoto told me they don't sell the Quasicon separately from their Quasicade cabs, but apparently someone else got a quote of $600 for one!)
Kevin
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: danny_galaga on June 02, 2005, 08:52:09 pm
saint, is there a chance you could set up a 'news' version to to highlight the important developments here? i havent looked in for a while and its very overwhelming trying to discern what has been done so far due to all the posts.  :o
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Arcadiac on June 04, 2005, 12:41:29 am
Hi y'all, just checking in.  Kev and I will be going on vacation this month so we would like to propose starting on his project towards the end of this month or the first part of July. 
That would be the best time for us to start a new thread and begin figuring out what would be needed for his stick project. 
Thanks all, for your help.

ARCADIAC!   
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on June 12, 2005, 09:31:27 am
The results of the RetroRemakes.co.uk (http://www.retroremakes.co.uk) One switch game competition are now in! 70+ fantastic games aimed at disabled and non-disabled gamers alike are now available for free download:

OneSwitch.org.uk switch gaming (http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/4/games/0index.htm)

Games include remakes of the first video arcade game ever: Computer Space (1971) and much more. Almost all of these games will be available to play at CGE-UK (http://www.cgeuk.com/) on August the 13th.

(http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/2/downloads/StarWars.gif) (http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/2/downloads/ComputerSpace.gif) (http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/2/downloads/OneSwitchBallz.gif)


OneSwitch.org.uk (http://www.oneswitch.org.uk)

p.s. - Sorry to hear the problems getting hold of Sean Wheels. Don't give up hope. You've got a good thing going here.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on June 13, 2005, 07:45:04 am
The results of the RetroRemakes.co.uk (http://www.retroremakes.co.uk) One switch game competition are now in! 70+ fantastic games aimed at disabled and non-disabled gamers alike are now available for free download:
Here's a quicker link to the games:  http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/2/switch-downloads.htm

I just played the Star Wars Remake.  Great fun and a good approximation of the original!!!

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this!!!!
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RayB on June 27, 2005, 08:59:07 am
Sort of related to this topic, Gamasutra has an analysis of "one-button game mechanics". This is probably mind-numbing reading to game-players but to designers, very interesting: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050602/green_01.shtml

Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: skallagrigg on July 03, 2005, 06:07:49 am
(http://www.oneswitch.org.uk/IMAGES/ads/CGEUKOneSwitch.gif)

At this year's Classic Gaming Expo UK, there will be a range of accessible games on free play. The games will change every hour, to demonstrate various accessibility features, including:

Single switch games.
Audio games.
Subtitled games.
MAME games (user defined controls, speed control, cheats).
D.I.Y. controllers.
Free to enter competitions with instant lucky dip prizes.


Please pass this on to anyone you think may be interested.

Barrie Ellis
www.OneSwitch.org.uk
www.cgeuk.com
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Phunk96 on July 07, 2005, 11:56:31 pm
First off...  GREAT THING YOU ALL ARE DOING/TRYING TO DO HERE!!!!

Second off...

Not to think the worst, but if SeaMonkey or anyone knows his real name have they tried searching the internet or newspaper archives for any information about him??
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: SirPeale on July 11, 2005, 10:51:50 pm
Unstickying.  If Sean comes back we'll talk about sticky again. 
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: MoeBackus on January 18, 2006, 06:52:10 pm
any news about Sean?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Ninja Supremacist on January 20, 2006, 09:23:13 am
Not to dis Sean but building your own control panel isn't nuclear science.  I am disabled.
http://www.cyberista.com/images/articlepics/Chris_Uzal_biography.jpg

The reason I got into MAME and worked for Treyonics for several years is because retrogaming controls represent the best hope for accessible gaming devices.  Big controls, durable as hell, it's really the only option available for anybody that doesn't feel like buying 4 gamepads every year.

My latest controller was unceremoniously introduced a couple weeks ago:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=47874.0

It's up for sale (omg!  Shameless plug.):
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=48653.0

When I joined, I posted my accessible cocktail table project which, like so many projects, is in a perpetual holding pattern.  Panels are easier to complete and store than cabinets. It really was just a project announcement and it's the closest, until this post, that I've come to mentioning the disability.

My point is this: Our friend Sean could have educated himself about this little niche industry and approached his problem in a way that doesn't mention disability to trigger the sympathy game.  Thankfully, some users tried to stick to the technical discussion--"what does Sean want."  What dismayed me was the financial handouts first and doing his diagrams second.

This site is absolutely LOADED with quality, relevant information.  As this is a hobby, figuring things out through research and putzing around with diagrams is half the fun. 

Struggle isn't a bad thing.  If anybody is curious about why Sean is gone, I'm willing to bet that part of the reason is that he has no stake in the controller because everything was done for him.  Without the blood, sweat and tears, it's easy to walk away from anything.

When you _give_ the answers and then throw money at his project, that cripples him more than the default gaming situation.  Anybody else would get links to previous discussions and maybe an insight or two.  No money and that's the way it should be.

I feel good knowing half of you automatically have a problem with me because of the word "supremacist" in my ID.  It's complete nonsense and makes me laugh when people get hostile because I know and you know I'll be treated differently the second I mention the wheelchair.

Consider this when the next guy comes around asking for advice in relation to his disability.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, right?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on January 20, 2006, 09:41:49 am
Not to dis Sean but building your own control panel isn't nuclear science.  I am disabled.
http://www.cyberista.com/images/articlepics/Chris_Uzal_biography.jpg

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, right?
Interesting perspective and well-stated points.  Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: RayB on January 20, 2006, 05:00:00 pm
If you're in a wheel chair but have complete upper body function, then in theory you can accomplish anything we walking folks can.

But there's being "disabled" (like above) and then there's having limited use of maybe one hand and that's it. I'd say that severely affects what you can do for yourself.

(But you make some interesting points)
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Ninja Supremacist on January 20, 2006, 07:01:34 pm
Ray,

I have a neuromuscular disorder that looks like quadriplegia.  Maybe 20% use of my hands.  Very weak arms.  Based on the 10 pages I read, I think the abilities of Sean and myself are pretty similar.  I know full well how guys with normal upper body strength live relatively normal lives.

I can feel my wang so I don't worry much about the severely reduced extremity strength.

He doesn't have a problem reading or writing.  I just thought he should do his homework and research without bringing the disability in.

I use the disability when there's an injustice.  Example, I just spent a week in discussions with EA about why Madden won't take my controller.  That's an accessibility issue.  That's something they weren't thinking about and they need to consider.  But to learn how to build a controller and find a friend to help me put it together?  No big deal and that's what friends are for.

Peace.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Bspill1 on June 06, 2006, 04:58:22 pm
"Not to dis Sean " but basically that's all you did besides toot your own horn.


by the way, I did not need to pull the disability card with EA.  I just made a quadriplegic controller work with Madden
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: horseboy on June 06, 2006, 05:43:40 pm
"Not to dis Sean " but basically that's all you did besides toot your own horn.


by the way, I did not need to pull the disability card with EA.  I just made a quadriplegic controller work with Madden

Who are you talking to? There are over 400 posts in this thread. Who is the jerk?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Kremmit on June 07, 2006, 01:15:06 am
If you bothered to read one post up, that's who he appears to be talking too. 

A better question is why, considering that this project (sadly) died like a year ago, and the thread finally (and thankfully) died in January.  Let it go, kids.
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: horseboy on June 07, 2006, 01:54:56 am
If you bothered to read one post up, that's who he appears to be talking too. 

I did. I actually read 2 posts up, but decided not to start flipping back through pages to figure it out.

I still don't see the only actual quote in the above post.

Quote
"Not to dis Sean "
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Tiger-Heli on June 07, 2006, 10:21:10 am
If you bothered to read one post up, that's who he appears to be talking too. 

I did. I actually read 2 posts up, but decided not to start flipping back through pages to figure it out.

I still don't see the only actual quote in the above post.

Quote
"Not to dis Sean "
See Reply #398 by Ninja Supremacist - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=28718.msg474881#msg474881
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: PCtech on June 07, 2006, 08:31:31 pm
Bspill1...Why did you dig up this 6 month post....I remember when it started, and was just curious.  Do you have a need, or know someone who has a need for something like this?
Title: Re: controller for quadriplegic
Post by: Bspill1 on June 19, 2006, 12:15:08 am
Yeah, sorry for digging up an old post just to stir the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  That guy kind of got to me.

I wasn't looking for anything in particular.  I check back with the web site periodically to see if there's anything of interest to me.  Always do a few keyword searches.  Quadriplegic being one of them.  There's hundreds of guys out there that can't play at all or can't play that well because of their disabilities.  Most of them with nothing to do because they can't work either.  People are always talking on the spinal cord forums about games ,systems, andwhat they can and can't play.  I figure it's always worth a check here to see if there's anybody new getting some good help from you guys or are looking for it.that was an awesome thing you guys were doing for Sean.