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cant seem to grasp why mame is 'illegal' for commercial use
ark_ader:
--- Quote from: Haze on February 03, 2010, 09:49:58 am ---
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on February 03, 2010, 09:07:06 am ---
--- Quote from: ark_ader on February 03, 2010, 08:48:50 am ---It does matter[/b][/i] and I would like Haze to reference those emulators that is using MAME code as his post suggests. Also again I ask Haze where is the agreement from Namco Bandai saying that it allows the Mamedevs to promote namco copyrighted software to be used in MAME.
--- End quote ---
I think the point is that the MAMEDevs don't promote this ... they've actually been pretty damned clear about it.
People ---smurfette--- about how changes to MAME make some games unplayable and how the MAMEDevs don't care enough about gameplay. I expect that the reason is that they aren't at all interested promoting MAME in that manner.
Check Youtube for Aaron's talk at a recent Cal Extreme.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, no promotion is going on at all. If you look at the recent documentation that is provided with MAME you'll see this is being made perfectly clear, the examples used are all games which have been made freely available.
MAME does what it does, it's a piece of software, which if provided with the appropriate game software will attempt to emulate the hardware required for that software to run. Promotion would be saying 'replace all your Pacman cabinets with MAME because it's better' If anything the opposite is done, you'll find the majority of developers promoting the restoration of the original hardware, and going out their way to help people who have issues with the hardware, often using what was discovered when emulating the games as a reference.
FWIW most games aren't protected at all, and most MAME development isn't even done in the US. Existing court cases, such as the case Sony had against various PSX emulators have always ruled in favour of emulation being legal. MAME contains no material which could be considered under copyright of anybody except the development team, it simply knows what to do with the game software if provided.
Anyway, this is separate from the issue being discussed which was simply 'Why can't MAME be used in a commercial setting' for which the answer is simply because the license that comes with MAME states that you can't. If you believe a significantly older version does not have such a clause then maybe (pending verification with the author who holds the copyright on it) such a version could be used but all recent distributions have an explicit license agreement which states they can't be used for commercial purposes.
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You have not answered any of my questions put to you, have you?
Looks like you are ducking the issue on those replies. I'm interested in the Namco Bandai question. :banghead:
Haze:
--- Quote from: ark_ader on February 03, 2010, 09:59:29 am ---
--- Quote from: Haze on February 03, 2010, 09:49:58 am ---
--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on February 03, 2010, 09:07:06 am ---
--- Quote from: ark_ader on February 03, 2010, 08:48:50 am ---It does matter[/b][/i] and I would like Haze to reference those emulators that is using MAME code as his post suggests. Also again I ask Haze where is the agreement from Namco Bandai saying that it allows the Mamedevs to promote namco copyrighted software to be used in MAME.
--- End quote ---
I think the point is that the MAMEDevs don't promote this ... they've actually been pretty damned clear about it.
People ---smurfette--- about how changes to MAME make some games unplayable and how the MAMEDevs don't care enough about gameplay. I expect that the reason is that they aren't at all interested promoting MAME in that manner.
Check Youtube for Aaron's talk at a recent Cal Extreme.
--- End quote ---
Agreed, no promotion is going on at all. If you look at the recent documentation that is provided with MAME you'll see this is being made perfectly clear, the examples used are all games which have been made freely available.
MAME does what it does, it's a piece of software, which if provided with the appropriate game software will attempt to emulate the hardware required for that software to run. Promotion would be saying 'replace all your Pacman cabinets with MAME because it's better' If anything the opposite is done, you'll find the majority of developers promoting the restoration of the original hardware, and going out their way to help people who have issues with the hardware, often using what was discovered when emulating the games as a reference.
FWIW most games aren't protected at all, and most MAME development isn't even done in the US. Existing court cases, such as the case Sony had against various PSX emulators have always ruled in favour of emulation being legal. MAME contains no material which could be considered under copyright of anybody except the development team, it simply knows what to do with the game software if provided.
Anyway, this is separate from the issue being discussed which was simply 'Why can't MAME be used in a commercial setting' for which the answer is simply because the license that comes with MAME states that you can't. If you believe a significantly older version does not have such a clause then maybe (pending verification with the author who holds the copyright on it) such a version could be used but all recent distributions have an explicit license agreement which states they can't be used for commercial purposes.
--- End quote ---
You have not answered any of my questions put to you, have you?
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I don't care to, they have no sound backing at all.
ark_ader:
Thank you for that. :applaud:
And thanks for updating your previous post to reflect your change of heart. So with that change you fail to mention game operators who have MsPacman units available for purchase. Does the Mame program deny Namco Bandai revenue for these machines, purely because you cannot use MAME in a commercial venture or does it promote it due to exposure? It looks that way doesn't it?
I'll ask Haze a simple straight forward question and call it a day:
Breaking encryption in games that MAME supports (like CPS2) from various Mamedevs - Does that give you license to perform these actions purely based on preservation of arcade games, and if so, where does MAME sit on the legality of such actions, with regard to the DMCA rulings?
CheffoJeffo:
--- Quote from: Haze on February 03, 2010, 09:49:58 am ---If they want a legal option to operate MSPacman on location the only options they have is finding an official MSPacman board on ebay (not a bootleg) or one of the newer models. Ultracade I can't recommend at all due to the ongoing legal issues. MAME they definitely can't run if they want to operate it legally regardless of any permissions from Namco because the MAME license states as much, so no, the OP can't revert to getting it for free if they want to operate it legally, and if they don't care about the legality of it they have plenty of other options. (Chinese xx-in-1 bootleg boards, FGPA based boards, MAME, Ultracade etc.) This doesn't make MAME illegal, but the use of it in such a situation would be. It's like a knife, you can use it for cutting meat, or you can stab somebody with it. The other options like the xx-in-1 (and depending on the outcome of the court case Ultracade ) would definitely be illegal from the start as they're actively distributing and promoting the units as coming with games, and distributing the games without permission. MAME isn't doing this.
--- End quote ---
An excellent summary
--- Quote from: Haze on February 03, 2010, 09:49:58 am ---The primary goal of the project, is, as it's always been, to figure out how things work and document them in the form of source code which can reproduce the behavior of the original hardware to a high degree of accuracy. The license and trademark restrictions applied help reaffirm this goal. If you want to operate a machine commercially then by all means use the information in MAME to restore the original hardware, or, if there are reissues of the games available on different hardware, buy and operate those. MAME isn't promoting or encouraging any other use.
--- End quote ---
And, a worthy goal that is more beneficial to some of us "purists" than we often admit. I know that I have benefited from the work done by MAMEDevs in fixing broken boardsets and am using MAME to figure out how some boardsets work while trying to figure out what is wrong with them (haven't succeeded yet, but I am learning).
:cheers:
versapak:
ark_ader:
Your argument is that because MAME gives people the ability to play games illegally (without permission of copyright holder) that they have no standing to say how MAME itself is used?
Are manufacturers of CD/DVD burners responsible for piracy that takes place with their product?
What about hard drive manufacturers? MP3 players?
Okay that is all hardware...
What about Windows Media Player? I can watch pirated movies and music to my hearts content with that software.
Does MS have no rightful claim in how that software is used because of that?
Maybe I just have your argument wrong, but it seems you are just arguing a point that is pointless.