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| cant seem to grasp why mame is 'illegal' for commercial use |
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| ark_ader:
--- Quote from: Haze on February 05, 2010, 09:04:10 am --- --- Quote from: ark_ader on February 05, 2010, 08:25:06 am ---References where you make this argument is where? Look at Dragon's Lair. How many formats/ports has this game ran on? How many variants of the theme? Has this title's strength in popularity created any new software from the creators? Has the delivery of an emulator like Daphne hurt sales? Has it has encouraged games sales from Digital Leisure? http://www.dragons-lair-project.com/games/related/ports.asp What has the appeal been behind the new software release of Daphne? Has this emulation software changed? What benefits are there between the previous versions and its current form? What distinguishes Daphne from Mame considering the direction of the eventual emulation of this title? Can you contact an arcade distributor and buy a new Dragon's Lair 25th Anniversary Edition arcade machine? --- End quote --- If MAME emulates Dragon's Lair, then it will require video sourced from an original Laserdisc, at a far inferior quality to the current offerings (because Laserdiscs degrade, are old technology and definitely not high definition), and a far larger file size (20-30gb) It will also have far higher CPU requirements. Given the level of availability of Dragons Lair (you can buy a copy that you can play on a standard DVD player) I can't see emulation making the slightest bit of difference. I'm not sure if you can currently purchase (new) arcade machines of it, because I think Digital Leisure mainly focus on home ports and the used hardware is getting on a bit. I'm also not convinced it would even do well in an arcade these days, it's become more of a novelty game which actually offers no gameplay at all. Daphne has some deal with Digital Leisure to use their files, via some DRM system, to run the game if you own a copy of the remake. MAME is an open project, which isn't tied to any single platform, and uses original material, not remastered material so won't take that route. This is where you can clearly see the difference between the goals of 'giving the user the best possibly play experience' and 'documenting how the original thing worked in an open way'. The MAME experience will be worse in every way compared to any of the current versions, but it will be faithful to the arcade. The MAME form will have no practical value to anybody except those who care about seeing it done properly. --- Quote from: ark_ader on February 05, 2010, 08:25:06 am ---Look at Pacman. Can the same argument be reached? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pac-Man Has the delivery of Pacman from Mame hurt sales? Is Pacman considered obsolete? Can you contact an arcade distributor and buy a Pacman machine? Do you think we will see a Pacman 30th anniversary edition cabinet? http://namcoarcade.com/ --- End quote --- Pacman, yes, you can buy new versions, but it's important to note from the hardware / documentation point of view these are entirely different beasts than the original Pacman PCBs. You can't take the roms off one of them and run it on an original 1980s Pacman board! I think it's proven beyond any doubt that Pacman will continue to sell regardless of ports, and regardless of emulation evidenced by the fact that Namco do keep coming up with new versions of it. It's an iconic game that people will continue to play, and continue to pay for, and continue to port to new systems. I think what you're seeing here is that if a game was good enough, and didn't age badly, it will continue to sell even if people already have an overwhelming choice of platforms on which to run the game. I can't really think of any system that doesn't have a version of Pacman, be it an official one, or a clone, yet the game still remains popular enough for Namco to release new versions. The original hardware is most definitely obsolete, which is what MAME documents, it was obsolete back in 1997 when it was the first platform MAME emulated, but the number of ports and new versions made hasn't changed at all. One of the nice plus points of MAME here is that we can also document the things that Namco can't officially endorse, the games that did cause them legal issues back in the day, eg. the Piranha hack which was sold as a new game, but was actually just a hacked up version of Pacman. Technically it's an illegal game, Namco can't include it in any of their new ports, the company that hacked it can't, and so without MAME that fact of history would be lost. MAME isn't doing anything wrong by documenting this, because the bad parts of history are still parts of history. I'd be very surprised if we didn't see 40th, 50th, 60th and even 100th anniversary Pacman machines, they'll continue to sell, and MAME will continue to document the different pieces hardware they run on in good time (as long as it's possible to do so, if they become dumb terminals running online flash games, it becomes impossible) --- End quote --- I agree with everything you posted so far, and I do not want to seem like I am laboring the point, but I do have three questions I would like Haze to answer as these will be my last questions on this thread, as it stems from the date when Haze was Coordinator of MAME. When a MAME developer submits code emulating/documenting the hardware of a Arcade PCB. When does that developer get permission to break the encryption of the said game in order to test the dumped software for accuracy? Granted not all ROM code is encrypted. Does the developer or the Coordinator contact (or make attempts to contact) the copyright holder for permission? What happens to the ROM code that is dumped from the mainboard of the PCB? Does those mainboard(s) go to a holding repository or agency? Do these mainboards or ROMS ever get sold on? And if so does the ROM dumped data get destroyed once the testing of that said PCB is 100% emulated? When did the MAMEdevs contact the Library of Congress to submit an application to become a partner of digital preservation. If this has not transpired, is this a goal of the MAMEdevs to register to this body, considering the benefits on offer? http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/ |
| Haze:
--- Quote from: ark_ader on February 05, 2010, 09:51:53 am ---I agree with everything you posted so far, and I do not want to seem like I am laboring the point, but I do have three questions I would like Haze to answer as these will be my last questions on this thread, as it stems from the date when Haze was Coordinator of MAME. When a MAME developer submits code emulating/documenting the hardware of a Arcade PCB. When does that developer get permission to break the encryption of the said game in order to test the dumped software for accuracy? Granted not all ROM code is encrypted. Does the developer or the Coordinator contact (or make attempts to contact) the copyright holder for permission? --- End quote --- There is no feeling that the law necessitates such permission, and cases such as the ones posted here to do with reverse engineering the Sony bios add weight to this. MAME is not developed using stolen information, it is pure reverse engineering, which thus far has held up as legal. The developers do not feel there is a copyright issue here so don't see the need to take any further action. MAME is a document of how things work. Again, you appear to disagree with this, but the answer isn't going to change. The team are confident in their legal position otherwise they simply wouldn't bother at all. --- Quote from: ark_ader on February 05, 2010, 09:51:53 am ---What happens to the ROM code that is dumped from the mainboard of the PCB? Does those mainboard(s) go to a holding repository or agency? Do these mainboards or ROMS ever get sold on? And if so does the ROM dumped data get destroyed once the testing of that said PCB is 100% emulated? When did the MAMEdevs contact the Library of Congress to submit an application to become a partner of digital preservation. If this has not transpired, is this a goal of the MAMEdevs to register to this body, considering the benefits on offer? http://www.digitalpreservation.gov/ --- End quote --- The developers work with the board owners, often with the board on loan from them. What the board owners do with their boards and the roms they dumped from them is entirely their business and responsibility, and not under the control of the core development team who actually work on the code. With the Library of Congress stuff again you're bringing US-centric details into play, the majority of MAME develoment does not happen in the US, I haven't looked into it. Maybe other developers have, but personally I prefer to just get on with doing what I know how to do. MAME isn't a political statement, and my time is better spent on figuring things out, and documenting them. I feel that the team has done a good job in it's current form, without the need for involving official organizations, which may only add pressure and political issues to the development cycle. |
| FrizzleFried:
--- Quote from: Haze on February 05, 2010, 09:38:13 am ---The WWF aren't even allowed to use their logo in old clips they broadcast... --- End quote --- --- Quote ---The company had also been ordered by the Lords to stop using the old WWF Attitude logo on any of its properties and to censor all past references to WWF, as they no longer owned the trademark to the initials WWF in 'specified circumstances'.[17] Despite litigation, WWE is still permitted use of the original WWF logo, which was used from 1984 through 1997, as well as the "New WWF Generation" logo, which was used from 1994 through 1998. Furthermore, the company may still make use of the full "World Wrestling Federation" and "World Wrestling Federation Entertainment" names without consequence. --- End quote --- ...it was only the "WWF Attitude" logo they can't broadcast... |
| Haze:
--- Quote from: FrizzleFried on February 05, 2010, 10:14:45 am --- --- Quote from: Haze on February 05, 2010, 09:38:13 am ---The WWF aren't even allowed to use their logo in old clips they broadcast... --- End quote --- --- Quote ---The company had also been ordered by the Lords to stop using the old WWF Attitude logo on any of its properties and to censor all past references to WWF, as they no longer owned the trademark to the initials WWF in 'specified circumstances'.[17] Despite litigation, WWE is still permitted use of the original WWF logo, which was used from 1984 through 1997, as well as the "New WWF Generation" logo, which was used from 1994 through 1998. Furthermore, the company may still make use of the full "World Wrestling Federation" and "World Wrestling Federation Entertainment" names without consequence. --- End quote --- ...it was only the "WWF Attitude" logo they can't broadcast... --- End quote --- Interesting, I don't pay much attention to it but at least when I caught a show last year and they were showing some old footage everywhere the gold logo (the same one used in the games) appeared it was blured out, be it on the ring, signs people had in the crowd, or the branding in the corner (where it was blured and replaced with the new WWE logo) They even dubbed the speech whenever WWF was mentioned. It was pathetic, and actually reminded me of why projects like MAME are good, because we don't attempt to change history. Still I imagine that licenses for the Wrestlers will still cause issues, there are several film tie-ins which suffer from the same problem, the company only had a license to sell / manufacturer games for a limited period. |
| FrizzleFried:
...strange... I just found this... (why am I even looking? Boredom I guess?) --- Quote ---Abandonment of the initialism did not end the two organizations' legal conflict. Later in 2002, the World Wide Fund for Nature petitioned the court for $360 million in damages, but the wrestling company prevailed. A subsequent request to overturn by the World Wide Fund for Nature was dismissed by the English Court of Appeals on June 28, 2007. In 2003, World Wrestling Entertainment won a limited decision which permitted them to continue marketing certain pre-existing products with the abandoned WWF logo. However, the wrestling company was obliged to issue newly-branded merchandise such as apparel, action figures, video games, and DVDs with the "WWE" initials. Additionally, the court order required the company to remove both spoken and visual references to "WWF" in its library of video footage (which spans several decades) outside of the United Kingdom. --- End quote --- So it looks like you were right Haze. |
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