Mame analog joystick mapping vs. u360 firmware mapping?

[arzoo]

(use Dwight Schrute voice) Question: For those who are using u360s with an app/plugin to set their firmware mapping, could this create a conflicting map with mame? For example, if mame is restricting the analog output to 4-way and the u360 is loaded with an 8-way map - will the game still only register the 4-way region? Or let's say both mame and the u360 use a 8-way diagonal map - do you get composite results?

Here's a few other questions...
1) Which was the first version of mame to support built-in analog joystick mapping?
2) Can this feature be turned off?
3) What are the possible values for the joystick_map key in the mame.ini (auto is the default)?

Thanks!

[Neverending Project]

I don't know for a fact, but in thinking about how the "mapping" works if the U360s have the firmware set to a map, this would be in addition to the mame mapping. So in effect it would be like overlapping the two maps - U360 applied first then mame.

Example: You play a mame game with a 4-way joystick, but you set the U360 to a different map in firmware first. Say you set the U360 to 2-way map using its firmware (extreme example) where all +Y movement sends "up" and all -Y sends "down, then mame would never see a + or - X movement to apply its map.

I can't confirm this from work (I wish I had my arcade machine in my office!) but that is how I understand it to work. I can't answer about the other questions, though. The docs\config.txt file talk about the mapping in mame, but I can't find where it mentions how to disable it.

-joystick_map <map> / -joymap <map>

   Controls how joystick values map to digital joystick controls. MAME
   accepts all joystick input from the system as analog data. For true
   analog joysticks, this needs to be mapped down to the usual 4-way or
   8-way digital joystick values. To do this, MAME divides the analog
   range into a 9x9 grid. It then takes the joystick axis position (for
   X and Y axes only), maps it to this grid, and then looks up a
   translation from a joystick map. This parameter allows you to specify
   the map. The default is 'auto', which means that a standard 8-way,
   4-way, or 4-way diagonal map is selected automatically based on the
   input port configuration of the current game.

   Maps are defined as a string of numbers and characters. Since the grid
   is 9x9, there are a total of 81 characters necessary to define a
   complete map. Below is an example map for an 8-way joystick:

      777888999    Note that the numeric digits correspond to the keys
      777888999    on a numeric keypad. So '7' maps to up+left, '4' maps
      777888999    to left, '5' maps to neutral, etc. In addition to the
      444555666    numeric values, you can specify the character 's',
      444555666    which means "sticky". In this case, the value of the
      444555666    map is the same as it was the last time a non-sticky
      111222333    value was read.
      111222333
      111222333

   To specify the map for this parameter, you can specify a string of
   rows separated by a '.' (which indicates the end of a row), like so:

       777888999.777888999.777888999.444555666.444555666.444555666.
       111222333.111222333.111222333

   However, this can be reduced using several shorthands supported by the
   <map> parameter. If information about a row is missing, then it is
   assumed that any missing data in columns 5-9 are left/right symmetric
   with data in columns 0-4; and any missing data in colums 0-4 is
   assumed to be copies of the previous data. The same logic applies to
   missing rows, except that up/down symmetry is assumed.

   By using these shorthands, the 81 character map can be simply
   specified by this 11 character string: 7778...4445

   Looking at the first row, 7778 is only 4 characters long. The 5th
   entry can't use symmetry, so it is assumed to be equal to the previous
   character '8'. The 6th character is left/right symmetric with the 4th
   character, giving an '8'. The 7th character is left/right symmetric
   with the 3rd character, giving a '9' (which is '7' with left/right
   flipped). Eventually this gives the full 777888999 string of the row.

   The second and third rows are missing, so they are assumed to be
   identical to the first row. The fourth row decodes similarly to the
   first row, producing 444555666. The fifth row is missing so it is
   assumed to be the same as the fourth.

   The remaining three rows are also missing, so they are assumed to be
   the up/down mirrors of the first three rows, giving three final rows
   of 111222333.

[edubbs]

What a coincidence, I was just about to post a similar question.

I wanted to verify that my u360 mapping was working with ledblinky so i tried a few things.  first, i set joystick_map to 0.  when i did that my joystick failed to work at all in the rom.  next i set my joystick_map back to auto, deleted the Joy8Way map, and renamed the Joy4Way map to Joy8Way map.  i loaded the rom (street fighter two champion ed) and it was obviously running in 4 way mode.

so, my mapping with ledblinky appears to be working correctly.  however, i don't understand why disabling the mapping in mame would completely disable my joystick?!?  maybe everything isn't working perfectly...

(mame .118 onward offers the joystick_map option)
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=80873.0

[Ummon]

It's simple: your stick must be set to analog for MAME to map it itself. If set to analog, your FE can still set it to something else at game load. (I don't recall what version of MAME started mappings.) I don't like the MAME mapping, though maybe if the stick had a greater mechanical tolerance I would. Hence, I make my own U-maps, which are switched via MaLa.

Supplemental: for 'joystick' to work in MAME, make sure it's enabled. Another reason I use MAME32/UI for testing. Still, sometimes you have to also set it in-game.

[arzoo]

Thanks everyone for the answers.

My concern here is that the u360 (regardless of the map loaded into firmware) always looks like an analog stick to mame. So if you can't turn off mame's mapping then you're playing with a composite map. And if that's the case then some custom u360 maps may not work as expected - for example, if the u360 map has a very small dead-zone (intentionally) and the mame map has a larger dead-zone, then the larger dead-zone will take effect.

It seems impossible to do any valid testing because the mame mapping only effects the game - there's no test mode or test app.

Those of us who want to use the u360 firmware mapping really need a way to turn off the mame mapping.

[TheShanMan]

Those of us who want to use the u360 firmware mapping really need a way to turn off the mame mapping.

I don't think that makes sense, unless the u360 converts analog to digital (i.e. keypresses), which I don't believe it does. I think even with maps it outputs analog values, but it's a single analog position per map zone, such that mame (or other apps) see the joystick as perfectly centered, or to the extreme positions, and never anything in between. Assuming that's true, it really doesn't matter what mame does map-wise. Taking the dead zone as an example, I think the u360 would send (0,0) regardless of where in the dead zone the joystick is physically. So it wouldn't matter if mame's dead zone is smaller than the u360's.

This is a bit of conjecture on my part - I don't really know for sure. But this is how I've always thought of it.

[Bobulus]

edit: I misunderstood. Nevermind.

[arzoo]

I don't think that makes sense, unless the u360 converts analog to digital (i.e. keypresses), which I don't believe it does. I think even with maps it outputs analog values, but it's a single analog position per map zone, such that mame (or other apps) see the joystick as perfectly centered, or to the extreme positions, and never anything in between.

Correct - that's what I said.

the u360 (regardless of the map loaded into firmware) always looks like an analog stick to mame

Here's two pics that may help visualize what I'm thinking. In this example, the u360 has a smaller dead-zone than the mame map. So the u360 is passing data for more zones than mame and I'm thinking that mame is only using data for the zones in its map - so in effect the mame map is partially overwriting the u360 map.

EDIT: ShanMan - I reread your post and I understand what you're saying. I believe you are right - the u360 is translating all the analog zones to single point zones (center, left, right, up, down). So my example is wrong. Nothing to see here... move along 

Sorry for all the confusion.

[Bender]

Hey Arzoo,

I have been wondering about this for a long time too.

We need u_rebelscum to give us the skinny

[arzoo]

Hey Arzoo,

I have been wondering about this for a long time too.

We need u_rebelscum to give us the skinny

I agree!

I've been thinking about this some more and now I don't think my example (above) is valid. I don't think I know what I'm talking about  

[arzoo]

I'm still think it's possible that a mame map could effect a u360 map. How about this... if the mame map is ignoring the outer region of the map (top and bottom in this example), would up/down register in the game?

(obviously this example would never happen - it's more of an academic question)

[edubbs]

I agree with Arzoo. I think a mame map could definitely limit a u360 map.

It would be an easy test. Create a mame 4 way map for an 8 way game (ie sf2t). Load the game and see if the joystick is in 4 way or 8 way mode (as being applied from a plugin).

If the joystick is in 4 way mode than you know that the mame map overlap is affecting the u360 map.

I would try it but I'll be away from my cab for the next few days.

With that being said...assuming that mame maps could limit a u360 map, would it be possible to create a defualt mame map that is limitless and apply it to all games?  so, if mame was always mapped to analog then the u360 firmware would be the only limiting map affecting game play.

[u_rebelscum]

Sorry, was out this weekend.

First, yes, mame always applies its maps to all gamepad type joysticks, but if the u360 is mapped to digital, then only 9 of the 81 squares matter.  (the corners, center edges, and center)

The most common issue people run into is probably with qbert, as mame applies a normal 4-way map by default, and if you map diagonal-only on the u360, mame tries to convert them to cardinal-only with sticky rules, but without a prior cardinal direction to stick to (it's diag-only), mame has problems.

As to what's better, u360 is better, but AFA inside mame goes, mame's is almost as good.

u360 map
pros:
can move cutoff points aka resize cells (need to hand edit cfg file though)
can remap for all emus and games, not just mame
possible to map each joystick differently
can set different maps for each game (with FE, script, & third party app)
has GUI remapping app

cons:
needs separate app to automatically change maps (and a FE that can run it)
can't auto-change if using mameUI or plain mame without a FE
may need to set a mame map anyway in some cases (like sometimes qbert)

mame map
pros:
works with all analog joysticks, not just u360
no need for an external app to remap
mame automatically remaps for 8-way & 4-way, defaults are okay for most people
can set different maps for each game (with gamename.ini files)
there is a third party GUI remapping app

cons:
cannot change cell size
only one map can be set to all joysticks at a time
only works on mame
can be confusing to remap by hand (but there is a GUI app to do it for you)


FWIW, the best way to "fix" mame so it doesn't mess up u360's maps is a generic 8 way map "-joystick_map 7778." for all mame games, and let u360 (& FE/script/app) handle the remapping.

Me, I use mame's maps because I never setup the script/app stuff, and am happy with mame's for now.

[arzoo]

FWIW, the best way to "fix" mame so it doesn't mess up u360's maps is a generic 8 way map "-joystick_map 7778." for all mame games, and let u360 (& FE/script/app) handle the remapping.

Rebel - thanks for the detailed explanation. This is exactly the answer we u360 users needed!

By the way, you can use LEDBlinky without any FE and it has a u360 only mode (for those who don't have any LEDs).

[edubbs]

u_rebelscum,

instead of the generic 8 way map, could you apply a generic analog map?  the reason for this would be to make sure that the mame map never overlaps the u360 map.

if so, do you know the code for the analog map?

[Ummon]

Wait a minute. I thought that MAME would only apply mapping if the stick was in analog mode. This ain't so? Hmmm. Obviously it's not coded with the U360 in mind....but still.

[arzoo]

Wait a minute. I thought that MAME would only apply mapping if the stick was in analog mode. This ain't so? Hmmm. Obviously it's not coded with the U360 in mind....but still.

I think mame sees the u360 as an analog stick regardless of the loaded map.

[arzoo]

u_rebelscum,

instead of the generic 8 way map, could you apply a generic analog map?  the reason for this would be to make sure that the mame map never overlaps the u360 map.

if so, do you know the code for the analog map?

That makes sense.

[Ginsu Victim]

Wait a minute. I thought that MAME would only apply mapping if the stick was in analog mode. This ain't so? Hmmm. Obviously it's not coded with the U360 in mind....but still.

Yeah, I always assumed this as well.

[Neverending Project]

The way I understand, the U360 is always an analog joystick. The difference in firmware mapping is that for any given position it will either output its exact position (analog map) or a quantized position (digital map). But the computer (and hence mame) will always see it as an analog joystick.

[Bender]

so from a practical standpoint if we set the Mame.ini file joystick map to "7778" instead of "auto" we should be good to go?

EDIT: I tried that and it wreaked havoc on the maps. It made the joystick stay permanently in the up position.
So the mame maps certainly do have an affect on the U360 map
I Changed it back and everything is fine,  fhheww!

So is there a way to simply disable the mapping function in mame?

[TheShanMan]

But it wouldn't make sense to disable the mame map. Mame has to know how to interpret what the u360 sends it because most games are 2/4/8 way so it needs to know how to go from analog value to up, down, etc. As u_rebel said, 7778 is the best map to use generally if you're using the u360 maps.

[Neverending Project]

Robin is certainly the expert here, but I think he may have meant to say to use the generic map "7778...4445" The way I understand the symmetry to work, you would need to specify at least to the fourth row to allow mame to determine up/down symmetry of the rows. The periods denote the end of a row.

[Bender]

But it wouldn't make sense to disable the mame map. Mame has to know how to interpret what the u360 sends it because most games are 2/4/8 way so it needs to know how to go from analog value to up, down, etc. As u_rebel said, 7778 is the best map to use generally if you're using the u360 maps.

Ok that makes sense but I can tell you that 7778 doesn't work

Robin is certainly the expert here, but I think he may have meant to say to use the generic map "7778...4445" The way I understand the symmetry to work, you would need to specify at least to the fourth row to allow mame to determine up/down symmetry of the rows. The periods denote the end of a row.

I'll try that

[u_rebelscum]

so from a practical standpoint if we set the Mame.ini file joystick map to "7778" instead of "auto" we should be good to go?

EDIT: I tried that and it wreaked havoc on the maps. It made the joystick stay permanently in the up position.
So the mame maps certainly do have an affect on the U360 map
I Changed it back and everything is fine,  fhheww!

D'oh, that's what I get for not double checking what I post.  you want "-joystick_map 7778...4445"

But it wouldn't make sense to disable the mame map.

Correct.  The u360 is converting to the nine extremes, which with the corrected "7778...4445", mame doesn't change what u360 sends.  Heck "78....45", "755558.5...45", or even (random except bold)
"732181259.
 845621483.
 619766687.
 244668712.
 431353186.
 987654321.
 123456789.
 555555555.
 198724563"
would all work just as well.  Because mame just sees the converted bolded "analog extremes", aka "digital 8-way".

Remeber, mame treats all gamepad directional data as analog because mame uses directX directInput, and directInput treats all directional data as analog.  IOW, it's a windows limitation, but it doesn't matter if you set mame to leave them alone.

[u_rebelscum]

Robin is certainly the expert here, but I think he may have meant to say to use the generic map "7778...4445" The way I understand the symmetry to work, you would need to specify at least to the fourth row to allow mame to determine up/down symmetry of the rows. The periods denote the end of a row.

Yup, beat me to my own correction.

[Bender]

yeah, that did it works great

Thanks everyone!

Got my personal best hi score on Qbert after the adjustment!

[Bobulus]

Random thought: the u360 is programmed via a flash-rom, right? And flash roms typically have a limited life of x number of flashes before they start glitching out.

Take the example of the flash-rom memory stick that is so popular for file storage these days. It's good for something like 10,000 flashes, which is more than most people will use in a lifetime. However, some people were running Firefox off the stick, and the constant updates to the profile were creating worries that it would wear the stick out too fast, such that a flash stick version of Firefox was created that updated less often.

Now, presumably the u360 also has such a flash lifetime.

Would it be better to use the mame map exclusively, rather than flashing the u360 for every mame game, to save on the flash life, and save the u360 mapping for non-mame games?

Might be a non-issue, I'm just throwing this out there.

[Bender]

The main reason I use the 360 maps are so I can use arzoo's program to load the right map for the front end and other emu's
plus it's very easy to customize the map in mame too.

good point about the flash memory though.

curious to hear what others have to say about it

I have flash memory for my camera that has well over 10,000 writes to it an it still works fine

[u_rebelscum]

That write limit is per "cell" or block of cells (depending on if the blocks can be written & earased by cell or not), not per drive.  You can have single level cell (SLC) or multi level cell (MLC), like with SSDs.  These cells are grouped by blocks.  Usually individual cells can be written one by one.  For a cell to be overwritten, they must be erased on the block level.  Note that "cell" is different than "file", and if the flash drive firmware or driver is good, it can write the updated file to a different cell(s) without touching the old cell, thus saving an erase/write cycle (until the space is needed).

Many of the flash drives have a 1,000 write/erase cycle limit (per cell or block).  Some are higher, at the before mentioned 10,000 limit.  Higher end are at 100,000 or even 1,000,000 cycles.


But even with a 1,000 cycle limit drive, with level smoothing firmware a small file can be updated hundreds of thousands of times.  This assumes the drive has free space one hundred times the size of the file being updated.  If the free space is limited, then the number of rewrites drops.

There are other issues (speed) that might crop up before the cells and thus drive starts failing.

[TheShanMan]

Robin is certainly the expert here, but I think he may have meant to say to use the generic map "7778...4445" The way I understand the symmetry to work, you would need to specify at least to the fourth row to allow mame to determine up/down symmetry of the rows. The periods denote the end of a row.

Yup, beat me to my own correction.

Yeah, and my post illustrates the fact that I haven't actually played with modifying the mame maps. 

[Ummon]

It's mostly a MAME concern, I guess, as consoles were generally 8-way, and you just dealt with the suck if the game was 4-way (2600 pac-man immediately comes to mind), so if you're using newer MAME, then sure go ahead and let it dictate at game load. Plus you can make custom maps, which I would do just as I've done with Umap.

[Ginsu Victim]

Ok, I'm not sure I understand. What do I need to do to make sure MAME doesn't interfere with my U360's mapping?

[arzoo]

Ok, I'm not sure I understand. What do I need to do to make sure MAME doesn't interfere with my U360's mapping?

in the mame.ini change:
-joystick_map auto
to:
-joystick_map 7778...4445

[Ginsu Victim]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the "..." was a shortened form of something and I was supposed to just know what it meant.

[arzoo]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the "..." was a shortened form of something and I was supposed to just know what it meant.

At the top of this thread (2nd post) there's a pretty good description of how mame interprets the mapping values (like 7778...4445) - but I still had to read it over a couple times before it made sense. 

[u_rebelscum]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the "..." was a shortened form of something and I was supposed to just know what it meant.

It is shorthand for something, but mame knows what it means.







Seriously, it's shorthand for:
777888999.
777888999.
777888999.
444555666.
444555666.
444555666.
111222333.
111222333.
111222333.

Italics are what the "..." means. 
Green is automatically filled in after the text.

[kronic24601]

Thanks. I wasn't sure if the "..." was a shortened form of something and I was supposed to just know what it meant.

At the top of this thread (2nd post) there's a pretty good description of how mame interprets the mapping values (like 7778...4445) - but I still had to read it over a couple times before it made sense. 

@arzoo - Somewhat related question. I am using Hyperspin as my FE, and I wanted to use LEDBLinky to map the u360 maps. However, I am building a swappable control panel, one with 2 u360's, 1 with 4 8-way joys (switch type). I'm assuming there wont' be a conflict when I change the mame mapping values (since the other panel uses non-analog controls), however, will LEdBlinky cause problems if the u360's aren't "plugged in"?

@u_rebalscum (or anyone that knows) ... I keep reading your post (#12) of the pro's and cons, and am trying to decide about why to bother using the u360 maps at all ... I am still a little confused as to why I would bother. I WAS planning on just using the standard maps, nothing fancy ...

cons:
cannot change cell size
only one map can be set to all joysticks at a time
only works on mame
can be confusing to remap by hand (but there is a GUI app to do it for you)

Should I care about not being able to change the cell size? What practical need would I have for this? (I don't care about it only working for mame, or all joysticks per game). I was looking at this app: http://headsoft.com.au/index.php?category=mame&page=joymap which seems pretty close to the u360 app ... my only deterant for that is I don't want to create entried for everygame ... I'm not sure if there is a work around for that.

My head is totally spinning guys  someone please dumn this down for me. (I beg you)

[arzoo]

My head is totally spinning guys  someone please dumn this down for me. (I beg you)

Since you’re already using blinky with the u360s – I would just stick with that and not worry about creating mame maps. And there shouldn’t be any problem if you swap to a panel that doesn’t use the 360s.

[Ummon]

Hmmm, so where is the 'joystick_map' parametre in MAMEUI?