So I bought a vintage Phoenix machine. Complete but NW

[midnightpulp]

Hi guys. Picked up that Phoenix machine I posted about a couple of weeks ago. I was surprised to discover that it was complete: boards, power supply, isolation transformer, etc. However, it doesn't power on. Nothing. No sound, nothing from the marquee lights or coin slots. Completely dead. So I'm wondering where do I start? Since picking my Neo Geo machine, I've become familiar with the standard Jamma setup, but this unit has a few differences, as I'm sure you all know. Isolation transformer looks the same but seems to be wired different (I don't see any tabs, looks like it's hard wired). Near the AC line, there's not one but two fuses. And I'm also unsure if this unit needs specified parts, namely the isolation transformer. Can I go ahead and just order a standard switching power supply, AC line, and iso? FWIW, it has an Electrohome g07907 19in Vertical monitor. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Anyhow, here's some pics on the guts:





Found the manual (can't make much sense of the schematics):
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/ARCADE/K-R/Phoenix%20[Service]%20[English].pdf

Looks like it still has the original Shindengen power supply.

[Kevin Mullins]

Are there any back door or coin door interlock switches ?

[Havok]

Time to whip out the multimeter - check for interlock switches, just follow the power cord. I would also do a continuity test of the fuses - should be almost no resistance. If that's good, then just start at the power supply and trace the voltage, find where it stops. At the very least you should always get the marquee to light up - it's usually a straight connection to the AC. You may have a bad line cord. Just start from the source and work your way up until you find where the break is.

[midnightpulp]

Time to whip out the multimeter - check for interlock switches, just follow the power cord. I would also do a continuity test of the fuses - should be almost no resistance. If that's good, then just start at the power supply and trace the voltage, find where it stops. At the very least you should always get the marquee to light up - it's usually a straight connection to the AC. You may have a bad line cord. Just start from the source and work your way up until you find where the break is.

Thanks! Sounds like a plan. There is an interlock switch that I thought was an on/off switch: Looks like this one: http://www.happ.com/electrical_supplies/interlock_switches.htm

Anything special I need to do with it?

Thanks again.

[RayB]

Plug machine in. Press interlock in and hold it.  Got power?  If not, check that the MAIN power switch is on. Got power? Yay. The back door is supposed to hold that switch in.

Now let go. Power off. PULL that switch out. Power back on! You can leave it like that while you have no back door on there.

Above don't work? Check fuses, connectors, etc.

Absolutely NO power is not a sign to replace the power supply.

[midnightpulp]

Plug machine in. Press interlock in and hold it.  Got power?  If not, check that the MAIN power switch is on. Got power? Yay. The back door is supposed to hold that switch in.

Now let go. Power off. PULL that switch out. Power back on! You can leave it like that while you have no back door on there.

Above don't work? Check fuses, connectors, etc.

Absolutely NO power is not a sign to replace the power supply.

Update. Still getting nothing.

Pulled out the interlock switch and its wires. Plugged the loose wire it left into the bottom right tab on the ac line filter. The AC line filter and Fuse holders were set up like this: The white and black wires on the AC cord are soldered to each right edge on the fuse holders (as seen in one of my photos) then two other white and black wires are soldered to the left edge. Those wires connect into the bottom tabs on the AC line filter. Solders seem good, but could a  bad/worn out solder be a culprit? 

I replaced the fuses as well.

Guess I'll have to get my hands on a multimeter and check everything.

Thanks everyone for all your help.

[Kevin Mullins]

Sounds like you need to break out a voltage meter and start checking from the power cord into the cabinet, through the fuse holder, through the interlock switches, etc, etc.

[channelmaniac]

When "pulling out" the interlock switch you aren't removing it from the game. You need to grab the plunger and pull outward on it to see if it snaps into place outward.

This action will lock the interlock switch into an "on" position for when working on the cab with the back door removed.

RJ

[RayB]

Oh man, Im so sorry. Never in my life did I think someone would think I meant removing the entire mechanism. 

[orion]

At one time I had a bunch of working parts from a Centuri cab that would work with a Phoenix.  I think I still have all of the parts around. If it turns out you need a new interlock switch, PS ect send me a PM, I'm sure we can work something out.

[midnightpulp]

Plug machine in. Press interlock in and hold it.  Got power?  If not, check that the MAIN power switch is on. Got power? Yay. The back door is supposed to hold that switch in.

Now let go. Power off. PULL that switch out. Power back on! You can leave it like that while you have no back door on there.

Above don't work? Check fuses, connectors, etc.

Absolutely NO power is not a sign to replace the power supply.

Lol. I did interpret "pull it out" as "remove it". But can't the machine power on without one, provided everything's connected correctly? I simply completed the circuit to everything.

Anyhow, I can reinstall it the way it was set up. Or did I do some damage by plugging the cab in without that switch installed?

Also, just picked up a multimeter, and while the stickied tutorial was helpful, it didn't cover any specifics on testing arcade equipment. When I test the ac line cord and filter, do I switch to AC on the multi? And since the power supply is DC, I would assume I test with the switch set to DC?

Thanks.

[midnightpulp]

Update:

Reinstalled the interlock switch and this time I pulled it out without pulling it out  Tested the AC line cord at the filter and it appears to be working. Got a reading of 118 volts. Both fuses and holders have continuity. Not sure how to test the iso transformer on this unit. There's no tabs to simply touch with the probes. It's hardwired. When I got to the power supply, I got nothing. Got readings of 0 at every tab.

Not sure what else to do? If anyone has any suggestions, I love to hear 'em.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[Kevin Mullins]

Not sure how to test the iso transformer on this unit. There's no tabs to simply touch with the probes. It's hardwired.

Then check at the next nearest connector...... power goes in one side and out the other.

When I got to the power supply, I got nothing. Got readings of 0 at every tab.

So what you need to do is backtrack until you do find power, and then move forward until you find your missing link so to speak.
 
A pic showing the insides of the cabinet in it's entirety might help as we can "point" to certain things for ya as we trace it out. (just back far enough to kinda show as much as possible without getting toooo far away)

[orion]

I saw that Ray B asked you this, and I am sure you checked it... however you didn't acknowledge him on this point... did you check the MAIN power switch? The one on top of the cab in the back?

[midnightpulp]

Not sure how to test the iso transformer on this unit. There's no tabs to simply touch with the probes. It's hardwired.

Then check at the next nearest connector...... power goes in one side and out the other.

When I got to the power supply, I got nothing. Got readings of 0 at every tab.

So what you need to do is backtrack until you do find power, and then move forward until you find your missing link so to speak.
 
A pic showing the insides of the cabinet in it's entirety might help as we can "point" to certain things for ya as we trace it out. (just back far enough to kinda show as much as possible without getting toooo far away)

Regarding the iso trans, the wires go directly into a molex connector, as seen in one of my photos. Do I stick the probes into there?

I'll get some pics up in about 20 min.

[midnightpulp]

I saw that Ray B asked you this, and I am sure you checked it... however you didn't acknowledge him on this point... did you check the MAIN power switch? The one on top of the cab in the back?

Boy, do I feel dumb. Never would thought to look in that spot for a switch.

Powers on. But the monitor displays a bunch of non-distinct lines and pixels. I'm getting sound, however. Monitor needs to be recapped?

I'll get up some pics.

[midnightpulp]

[RayB]

First thing you do is find a good mirror to set up in front of the monitor, so you can see it from the back. Then, using a plastic tool, you gently turn the monitor knob marked "HSync". Sometimes that knob gets really finicky and the slightest pressure may affect it. Anyways... this MIGHT get you a normal picture.  Be careful not to touch anything with your hand.

Otherwise you may be looking at needing to re-solder the video connector pins or replacing the knob (called a Potentiometer). Hopefully nothing worse than that, but it's possible.

[orion]

I saw that Ray B asked you this, and I am sure you checked it... however you didn't acknowledge him on this point... did you check the MAIN power switch? The one on top of the cab in the back?

Boy, do I feel dumb. Never would thought to look in that spot for a switch.

Powers on. But the monitor displays a bunch of non-distinct lines and pixels. I'm getting sound, however. Monitor needs to be recapped?

I'll get up some pics.

If you don't know about them, they are hard to spot. To further specify the plastic tools Ray B was referring to, I would recommend purchasing TV tuning tools from radio shack. You don't want to get a zap from a monitor as really hurts!

[midnightpulp]

Thanks, Orion.

Been in contact with Bob Roberts, and he suggested I recap. So along with that, I ordered his 7 piece plastic tool adjustment set. Will those do the trick?

[orion]

Thanks, Orion.

Been in contact with Bob Roberts, and he suggested I recap. So along with that, I ordered his 7 piece plastic tool adjustment set. Will those do the trick?

Though I am not familiar with his particular adjustment set, I would have to say that if you ordered it though Bob Roberts it would do the trick.

[RayB]

Before buying the tools, I just used a plastic "picnic" knife.

And... why not trying adjusting it before capping??

[SirPeale]

I'm sure it needs capping anyway, but I agree with Ray - it might be able to be adjusted so you can see a picture.

Is that a G07?

[orion]

My thought is that going ahead and spending $5.00 on some tuning tools beats trying to adjust a horizontal width coil with an allen wrench. That was an experience I wish I could take back! 
EDIT:

I'm sure it needs capping anyway, but I agree with Ray - it might be able to be adjusted so you can see a picture.

Is that a G07?

I think it is, my centuri cab of that vintage and type had one in it. You guys know more about monitors than I do, but in looking at his picture it looks similar to how mine was looking. Adjusting the Hsync or anything else for that matter didn't do a thing for it. However there was an adjustment that could be made on one of the daughter cards which happened to clean things up in that case.

[RayB]

My thought is that going ahead and spending $5.00 on some tuning tools beats trying to adjust a horizontal width coil with an allen wrench. That was an experience I wish I could take back! 

  The Horizontal Width Coil has nothing to do with the Hsync. The Hsync is adjusted via one of the potentiometers, located along with the Vsync, Vertical size and similar controls. There is no high voltage with those like you have in a width coil. I recommend a plastic tool anyways because when you're trying to adjust and see the monitor at the same time, it's easy to drop a screwdriver or touch something you shouldn't, and that would cause damage.

[SirPeale]

If he has a G07 he's likely got those awful pots that need to be adjusted with a jewelers screwdriver.  Just be careful when you do it.  Oh, one more piece of advice: use a mirror.

[orion]

My thought is that going ahead and spending $5.00 on some tuning tools beats trying to adjust a horizontal width coil with an allen wrench. That was an experience I wish I could take back! 

  The Horizontal Width Coil has nothing to do with the Hsync. The Hsync is adjusted via one of the potentiometers, located along with the Vsync, Vertical size and similar controls. There is no high voltage with those like you have in a width coil. I recommend a plastic tool anyways because when you're trying to adjust and see the monitor at the same time, it's easy to drop a screwdriver or touch something you shouldn't, and that would cause damage.

All apologies, I didn't mean to suggest that his issue was with the horizontal width coil, I was just using it as an example of for the need for a plastic tv tuning kit. Seeing as to how he hasn't posted in a while, I would assume that your suggestion of adjusting the Hsync did the trick for him. If it didn't I leave it to folks such as yourself who are more knowledgeable than I on the subject as I wouldn't want to do more harm than good.

[midnightpulp]

Hi guys. Thanks for all the replies. And it is a g07 907 Electrohome.

Anyhow, got my parts from Mr. Roberts. Did a cap kit (a lot easier than I thought), replaced the horiz width coil, and adjusted the pots. Now I'm getting a solid white line down the middle of the monitor (seems to be a common problem). Good news is that I got picture for a few seconds when my friend wiggled cap c411. But when he wiggled it again, nothing. We were suspicious about this cap from the get go. While desoldering, the little circular piece of foil that covers the hole simply melted away, so we figured there was a chance that cap might not seat properly, creating a "loose" connection. Should I resolder it again? Or do I need to hunt down one of those pieces of foil?

Not sure what might next steps are after the cap kit? I've read about degaussing, resoldering videosyncs, checking transistors and vert delfection yoke (I have a multimeter, not sure what exactly to check( etc, but I'm not sure what to do with that.

Thanks for all your help. Almost had it working.

[Kevin Mullins]

I keep a little jar full of the capacitor leg clippings for repairing just such things.
You'll need to gently scrape the foil trace back enough to get a good solid clean spot and fold the leg over to reach it or jumper that cap leg to the next nearest solder point to repair that trace.
Double check any other suspected bad solder joints as well. (anywhere on the chassis)
Namely large resistors and such that get hot. If you see dark brown patches on the chassis, definitely check around there.

Does the line run vertically or horizontally ?

[midnightpulp]

I keep a little jar full of the capacitor leg clippings for repairing just such things.
You'll need to gently scrape the foil trace back enough to get a good solid clean spot and fold the leg over to reach it or jumper that cap leg to the next nearest solder point to repair that trace.
Double check any other suspected bad solder joints as well. (anywhere on the chassis)
Namely large resistors and such that get hot. If you see dark brown patches on the chassis, definitely check around there.

Does the line run vertically or horizontally ?

Vertically. FWIW, it's a vertically oriented monitor.

Forgive me (still pretty new to all this), not sure I exactly follow your first suggestion of scraping back the foil trace. The foil pad that encircled the hole where the cap leg goes through is completely gone. As for your second suggestion, would there be any risk of creating a connection that isn't supposed to be there? Does it matter where I make the connection? Here's the cap kit map: http://www.lizardlickamusements.com/documents/g07/g07_chassis.pdf

Cap in question is C411. So going by what you're saying, if would be okay to connect the leg of that cap to a joint of one of those small blue transistors?

Thanks for your reply. Really have learned a lot these past few weeks.

[SirPeale]

Although the "circle" is gone, the trace it connected to is now.  Connect it to that.

[midnightpulp]

Did a little reading and I get it now. How about how Bob Roberts does it with a piece of wire acting as a defacto "tin?"

http://therealbobroberts.net/g07repair.html

Quick question: Are we to connect this wire to the solder point at the immediate left within the trace (R314)? Or is the wire    alone enough to facilitate a connection?

[midnightpulp]

What I wound up doing is taking a single strand of wire from some 20 gauge wire (is a single strand of wire too weak for that type of connection? Reason being that anything thicker would invariably hit a different solder point outside the circuit, which is why I couldn't simply bend a leg over to the next point) and connecting it to the nearest solder point within the circuit. Got continuity where I had none before, but the monitor still wouldn't display. This time it was a gray rectangle roughly the size of the monitor. So I guess I did something right

Any suggestions?

[RayB]

Did you remember to reconnect the video signal connector?

[midnightpulp]

Did you remember to reconnect the video signal connector?

Just took the board out and made doubly sure everything is connected good and tight, still got the same result.

What do you guys make of the way it was displaying color prior to capping (as seen in one of my photos) and now I'm getting nothing? I ain't too handy with a soldering iron as of yet so maybe I have a couple of cold joints somewhere?

Also, I didn't reflow the video syncs. So I guess I'll try that.

And if anybody has an extra working g07 chassis laying around that you'd like to sell, let me know.

[Kevin Mullins]

This time it was a gray rectangle roughly the size of the monitor. So I guess I did something right.

If you turn the SCREEN pot up on the flyback, does the screen get brighter/white ?

If yes, then monitor is working, but has no video signal.
(like RayB was referring to, no signal)

[midnightpulp]

Yep guys, no/bad video signal. Unhooked and made sure once again everything was hooked up properly and then got the same result as in my photo, bunch of nondescript lines. When I disconnected main Phoenix PCB, I got a similar result. Squiggly lines resembling "waves". I then unhooked the video connector and got a nice solid black screen, like when you go to input on a TV. So it looks like the monitor will display quite nicely once I figure out the problem.

Bad video wire(s)? Could it be that the PCB isn't outputting a vid signal? Or something as simple as a bad wire? Or a bad harness? Should I reflow solder on the vid connector pins?

FWIW, the edge connector on the PCB looks like Nintendo game that's seen once too many "blows". Tried cleaning it, but it didn't help.

Some pics:

Vid cables connected (Main game PCB removed):



Unhooked:

[Kevin Mullins]

You once mentioned getting sound...... but does it play "blind" ?
Can you actually coin it up and play it ? (even thought he image is scrambled)

Have you tried adjusting the Horizontal Frequency control ?

How is the Sync wired up to the monitor itself ?

Make sure it isn't something like a cold solder joint on the input header pins.
(wiggle test the chassis connector)

[midnightpulp]

You once mentioned getting sound...... but does it play "blind" ?
Can you actually coin it up and play it ? (even thought he image is scrambled)

Have you tried adjusting the Horizontal Frequency control ?

How is the Sync wired up to the monitor itself ?

Make sure it isn't something like a cold solder joint on the input header pins.
(wiggle test the chassis connector)

Yep. Plays blind.

Yes. But I'll try once again. Could that pot actually be bad?

Molex connector.

Will do.

[midnightpulp]

Monitor works! Horizontal freq did the trick. Had to adjust it ever so carefully. Looks great. But...

Firing doesn't work. You can hear it (so the button input is goos), but there's no animation for it. Bullets are invisible, or better yet, non-existent. Even if I line up with an enemy, there's no hit detection. So I'm assuming it's a PCB problem?

5 huge steps forward, 1 tiny step back.

Thanks to all.