Asteroids Cocktail restoration

[csa3d]

So I finally purchased an asteroids cocktail table after searching online for one for some time.  I got a pretty good deal off craigslist for $125.  The machine is said to not work at this time, and I'm not sure why.  I was told it did before it was moved out from storage, so it could be something loose, could be worse, I have no idea.  I'll be asking a million questions to anyone who has insight.  I plan to fully restore this one.  I have a few projects that need to complete before diving into this one, but hope to get to it soon.  Here  are some "coming home" shots.

-csa

[GaryMcT]

Congrats! What an awesome game!   May it function soon.

[saleem]

i am envious.

we cant even get a gutted cocktail table never mind an intact one for less than around £200.man that would cost fortune over here in uk.

you americans,you got it cool.
 

[RayB]

Let me know if you need any parts CSA3D... I have one with monitor issues (working boardset though) and I'm considering parting it out...

[csa3d]

Let me know if you need any parts CSA3D... I have one with monitor issues (working boardset though) and I'm considering parting it out...

Awesome news.  Might take you up on that at some point.  Step one is gonna be to crack this puppy open and see what I'm working with.

-csa

[spriggy]

Always loved the look of these cocktails and the simple Asteroid artwork and underlay.  My simple brain likes simple things 

I'll be watching. 

[Silas (son of Silas)]

...we cant even get a gutted cocktail table never mind an intact one for less than around £200.man that would cost fortune over here in uk.

you americans,you got it cool.
 

Ain't that the truth 

Nice find. I look forward to seeing it live again 

[csa3d]

So last night I managed to finally start looking at this project.  I brought in inside and got it opened up (first time opened since acquiring it).  I was quite happy to see that it appears to have all the parts inside and no signs of rodents living in it.  First hand I noticed that the main boards were not securely fastened to the sides of the cab, and that the coin mech had a loose wire hanging from the coin switch.  It's dusty as all get out in there, and the overlay's paint is flaking off.  I'll be eventually worrying about cosmetics, but not until we're up and running.

The guy I bought it from told me it kept blowing fuses and that's about all I remember him saying.  I noticed that there are a bunch of fuses missing, but I suspect that if I just replace them without doing my due diligence, they will just immediately blow again.  So based on other posts I've read on the boards, I gather that my first job is remove all the main boards and give them a cap kit.  The power supply still has the original "big blue" cap.  No pictures yet, but I've managed to extract the main board, the audio board, and the power supply so that I can start cleaning them up and recap them as needed.

There are some dark spots on the one board around a few pieces of the same type.  I'll have to look them up and see what those are exactly.  I"m not sure if it's normal or not.  Hopefully pics will help and exact names of which parts these are will help others help me figure this out

My next order of business is to figure out what "recapping" this entire machine entails.  I haven't touched the monitor cage yet.  Even with vector monitors, am I going to need to do the thing where you insert a grounded screwdriver around the neck ? (the process name escapes me)?  Until I figure this out, those boards are staying in the cab.  Plus, I have plenty to clean/repair for the time being.  I'm assuming I should also recap those boards as well however.

This will be my first restoration, so any help will be super appreciated.

-csa

[csa3d]

So I've managed to take some shots of the boards I've pulled from the machine.  So that I only have to place one giant order and prevent myself from multiple orders like in Chad's thread, I was hoping that others could help me come up with an ordering list from Bob Roberts.

Power Brick

I know right off the bat that I'm going to need to order an Atari Big Blue replacement, and all fuses that go on this board, seeing that there are none in the main fuse block, and nothing in that black fuse container.

Questions:
1.)  Is the Big Blue kit I'm after called, "Atari 'Big Blue' Capacitor - (Transformer Assembly)" listed for $12.50 on Bob Roberts's Page

2.) Does bob sell these fuses, or should I just go to Radio Shack or Frys and pick them up locally?  I suspect I'll need at least two of every fuse, as I expect a few of them to blow while I'm learning how to fix this stuff (long time poster, first time restorer).

3.) Are there any other parts you'd order ahead of time for this guy while I'm repairing it?

4.) I've read that it's important to measure voltages out of this power supply after repaired.  Do I need to have all other components connected to the power supply when doing so, or can I leave everything unplugged for the time being until I verify that just this unit is working properly?  What is the protocol for testing voltages here?

-csa

[csa3d]

A/R Board

Here are some shots of the A/R Board.  Still looking at completing a list of parts from Bob Roberts, any help is appreciated.

I've read that this is another board which is recommended to have caps replaced.  I've located an, "Atari A/R Repair Kit (caps + Q2/3+R29)" listed for $9.00.  Though I've looked at the schematics (and noting that the digital copy I've seen so far is hard to read some of the identifiers), I'm not quite certain where R29 is.

There looks to be two fried resistors on this board.  One of them is just to the right and slightly down from J6, and the other is immediately to the left of J6.

Questions:
1.) Is the repair kit listed above the correct thing to order for this board?

2.) Can anyone help me to identify which resistors are fried?  I'll need to buy these either from Bob or Radio Shack.

3.) Should I be concerned about anything before repairing anything given those specified fried components?

4.) Should I order any additional parts other then previously mentioned?

-csa

[csa3d]

Main PCB

In general, I feel that the main PCB looks pretty good.  I suspect I need to order an, "Atari Asteroid PCB Cap Kit" listed for $5.00 from Bob Roberts Parts Page.  The portion of this board which feels sketchy to me is that the end connector looks like the very top pin could be slightly melted.  It appears that work has been done to try to fix this in the past.  There are also two components with obviously different solder marks then 90% of the board.  I'll assume those parts are working until proven guilty in a court of law.

Here are some shots of the board, with questions to follow.

Questions:

1.) Is the PCB cap kit mentioned above correct/sufficient?  What other parts would you pre-order?

2.) The melting of that connecting pin, what are people's thoughts on this?  Is it fine?  Should I try to smooth it out/make it flatter?  Should I be concerned that it even looks like that, and therefore investigate some other area of the board given someone's expert advice?

-csa

[GaryMcT]

This all reminds me how much I need to fix my Asteroids Deluxe that let out the good smoke a while ago.

Looks like you are having fun!

[csa3d]

PCB pics continued...

So in conclusion, my "To Purchase" list so far contains:

From Bob Roberts
1x    Atari Asteroids PCB Cap Kit
1x    Atari A/R Repair Kit (caps+Q2/3+R29)
1x    Atari "Big Blue" Capacitor (Transformer Assembly)
1x    PCB Edge Repair Kit 22/44

Local Retailer (Frys/Radio Shack)
2x    50v Silicon Rectifier 1N4001 Diodes (A/R Board, CR2 and CR3)
4x    3amp glass fuses
4x    7amp glass fuses

Please help and thanks for watching

-csa

[csa3d]

I've posted a link to this thread on the KLOV forums to get some additional eyes on this.  Thanks to JoshBrown80

... I do want to tell you that you need to ask around and find out what caused thosed DIODES to fail. The one component that is burnt in half and the other one that looks heat damaged on the A/R are diodes, which basically act as a one way gate for current flow....something had to have went wrong to fry those...and honestly I have not seen that type of failure...

The edge connector could have been put on backwards at some point, the Poer brick could have something going on...I just don have a chance to look at the A/R Schematic at the moment...but you will definitely want to ask around and abort any future testing until you at least find out what killed the A/R and repairs are made.

The edge connector on your board looks like someone used the solder trick to half-ass repair the edge connector issues that plague atari games. You are going to want to remove the solder from the traces and get a replacement edge connector from Bob Roberts, along with the appropriate pins to repair it properly and to prevent damaging your newly repaired A/R Board

I have discovered that I should look into repairing the PCB Edge, as it was hacked back to life.  It also sounds like this is a common Atari board issue.  Bob Roberts has a page explaining PCB Edge Repair.  I've gathered from his site that I have 7 pins in 1 inch of that connector, making my spacing 1.56, which means I need a "PCB Edge Repair Kit 22/44" for a cost of $7.50.  I've added this part to my running list of parts to order.

I've also been told that the two fried components on the A/R board are diodes, not resistors.  I'm still trying to identify which component IDs these diodes are on the schematic, so I can order the right thing.

EDIT:  I've located a better scan of the manual for an upright asteroids machine, which has much clearer part id numbers overlayed over the A/R circuit board diagram.  Also knowing that I'm looking for diodes, it's just my luck that there are only two of them on this board according to the parts list in the manual, and they both happen to be fried on mine.  Cross checking the diagram to this new info allows me to identify the two fried parts CR2 and CR3, which equates to being two 50v Silicon Rectifier 1N4001 Diodes.

I have updated the parts list to include CR2 and CR3

Questions:
1.) Would you add/remove anything from this shopping list?
2.) Does Bob sell the items listed under Local Retailer?  Am I better of finding those parts locally?  Are there any things to look out for when purchasing those items locally?
3.) On the A/R board, I don't see R29 in the parts list in the manual.. is something in a Deluxe or different board?
4.)  Should I go ahead and and replace CR1 (Which is between the two white jacks on the AR board, next to the fried CR2?  It's not fried, but was near the burnt component.
5.)  What about replacing any of the parts around the other burnt diode, CR3?

Any other comments and help on this are welcome.  Thanks again!

-csa

[SirPeale]

One piece of advice I'll give you is: get extra fuses.  Inevitably some will blow.  I would personally get two boxes of each rating (five fuses to a box).  Even if you get 100% lucky, eventually you'll need them for another project.

[Level42]

One piece of advice I'll give you is: get extra fuses.  Inevitably some will blow.  I would personally get two boxes of each rating (five fuses to a box).  Even if you get 100% lucky, eventually you'll need them for another project.

Better then keep blowing fuses is this from good ol' Bob:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/cirbreaker.html

[csa3d]

One piece of advice I'll give you is: get extra fuses.  Inevitably some will blow.  I would personally get two boxes of each rating (five fuses to a box).  Even if you get 100% lucky, eventually you'll need them for another project.

Better then keep blowing fuses is this from good ol' Bob:
http://www.therealbobroberts.net/cirbreaker.html

I did run across that while scanning Bob's site actually.  So would you recommend getting a few of them or just one?  There are components with multiple fuses, and I'd hope that only one blows at a time, but who knows.  I'm new to this.

[csa3d]

It's been suggested that I check my Bridge Rectifier to ensure it's working on the A/R board, located at position (Q3).

I've read online that to test a bridge rectifier, it's just 4 diodes, which essentially restrict electrical flow to one direction. The test to check a diode is to set the meter to ohms, and ensure there is an infinite change in one direction, while the other direction stays around zero.  Correct?

I've pulled out my multi-meter to test for a bad bridge rectifier on the A/R board (Q3). Set the meter to continuity beep, red probe on the very top of the bridge and the black on the surrounding heat sink and got no beep. This is probably a good thing meaning that it was properly installed, since it's not touching the metal heat sink because of the pad under it.  However, if I put both probes on different parts of the heatsink, which in my mind I *expect* would make a connection, I get no beep. Therefore, my heatsink is either coated with something non-conductive, or my meter is weak, or the heatsink is non-conductive (which I find hard to believe), or lastly I just did something wrongly while testing.

Looking at Q3 which is currently attached to the board, I am puzzled on how I access these diodes. There are two nuts on the top which secure it to the heat sink, then two soldier posts underneath the location, along with two screws, which I assume are the posts for the nuts above. My bridge rectifier appears to have a thin rubber like surface between the base holder and the heat sink, and I assume the whole thing somehow pulls off. When it's off, I also assume I'll have access to the diodes.

Can anyone point me in the direction of testing the diodes and explain how this things comes off, or even if I need to take it off to test it?

-csa

[csa3d]

OK, last post is incorrect.  There is a 2N3055 transistor at Q3 on the A/R board.  Looking up how to test transistors, it appears that it is testing out correctly according to the guidelines I've found.  The bridge rectifier mentioned is on the Power Block.  I am now looking into how to test this to make sure it's ok.

At this point, I'm probably going to make an order for the parts mentioned above and see where I get.  Possibly this weekend I'll discharge the monitor and start that list of parts rolling.

-csa

[csa3d]

Just shot off an email to Bob Roberts ordering the following parts:

Quantity       Price      Part
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  1           $  5.00     Atari Asteroids PCB Cap Kit
  1           $  9.00     Atari A/R Repair Kit (caps+Q2/3+R29)
  1           $ 12.50     Atari "Big Blue" Capacitor (Transformer Assembly)
  1           $  7.50     PCB Edge Repair Kit 22/44
  1           $  5.50     Molex edge connector with split pins, 22/44 Common on Bally/Midway games
  1           $  1.00     1N4001 50v Silicon Rectifier Diodes (5 pack)
  1           $  2.50     7amp 250v 3AG slow blow fuse (5pack)
  1           $  2.50     3amp 250v 3AG slow blow fuse (5pack)
  1           $  3.00     Circuit Breaker Tester
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping: $8.25
Total:     $56.75

Hopefully these parts once installed with get my cabinet at least up and running blindly.  Next on my list of things to do is start to figure out what needs done on the monitor, so I can place another order.  I figure fixing the above list will keep me busy for a bit.


EDIT:  Updated order to include proper harness adapter and pins, plus shipping costs.

On a side note, I've discovered a cold solder joint on the A/R board which I'll get into more when my parts arrive.  I've also cleaned all the parts mentioned earlier, so I'm ready to go when the parts arrive.

-csa

[csa3d]

Parts arrived from Bob Roberts on Thursday.  Everything was pretty straight forward, though the hardest part was recapping the PCB due to the close proximity of all the small components.  There was also solder on both sides of the PCB which was unexpected, but I quickly figured that out.  The PCB Edge repair went pretty well.  I removed all the old solder with a soldering braid to see how bad the damage was underneath.  Most of the pins were in good shape, except three of them which were largely cooked off.  Not really enough room to feel good about connecting straight to it, so I moved forward with the edge repair kit.  The AR Board was super easy.  Here's some photo updates of the repairs.

PCB

[csa3d]

A/R Board

[csa3d]

Power Brick

[csa3d]

Next on my list of things to do is to replace the wiring harness PCB connector with the new parts I've order, and test some voltages on the stuff I recently repaired.  I also need to discharge the monitor and see what's going to be wrong on the video front.  I expect at least a cap kit will be necessary.

-csa

[slasherman]

Nice a detailed project, hope you get the hang on the PCB board a well.

[Level42]

Looks very nice !

[csa3d]

Today I decided it's time to quit putting off monitor repair.  I discharged the monitor, though nothing popped.  Quite uneventful.  Looks like this isn't going to be a straight forward plug-n-play like I had anticipated.  I'm missing fuses, there are some burn marks, and at least one visibly busted component.  I have NOT located a manual for this monitor yet, so please excuse any misnaming of various parts.  This is my first monitor repair, so I'm looking for any expert advice anyone can offer.  And here are some pics to motivate help

Monitor

Q) Can anyone point me towards a manual or whatnot so I can locate which part is which?
A) Electrohome G05-805 - PDF found here

-csa

[csa3d]

Asteroids Monitor - Deflection Amplifier PCB

1.)  Is the black wire in picture #08 normal?  It looks suspect..
2.) There appears to be a badly burnt component(s) on R100 and R101.  Any advice on how to check/fix this issue?

-csa

[csa3d]

Asteroids Monitor - HV Board

Here's the second board found on the monitor.  It was the one the monitor is directly connected to, and was enclosed in a metal protective cage.  This board looks pretty good, except there is one component on it that looks broken (see image 17).

1.) Can anyone confirm what the broken part is, or if that looks not broken and should just work?  It looks suspect to me..
2.) Is the blackness on the part in image #16 look normal?
3.) What's the broken part called in image #17
4.) When I go to reconnect the scary cable to the monitor after repair, do I need some special goo?  It appears sticky under that suction cup cap..

-csa

[Level42]

Asteroids Monitor - Board 2

Here's the second board found on the monitor.  It was the one the monitor is directly connected to, and was enclosed in a metal protective cage.  This board looks pretty good, except there is one component on it that looks broken (see image 17).

1.) Can anyone confirm what the broken part is, or if that looks not broken and should just work?  It looks suspect to me..
2.) Is the blackness on the part in image #16 look normal?
3.) What's the broken part called in image #17
4.) When I go to reconnect the scary cable to the monitor after repair, do I need some special goo?  It appears sticky under that suction cup cap..

-csa

Well first: Board 1 is called the deflection board. Board 2 is called the HV board.
1) That is a potmeter. It's a variable resitor that you can set with a screwdriver to the desired setting. At least that is what it used to be. Check the value of R905 in the manual for ordering a replacement
2) I think this is the rather special diode that is on the G05. Judging from other pictures the blackness is normal.
3) see 1)
4) You mean the HV cup. In normal cicumstances, and if the cup itself is still flexible enough, you should not need any goo at all. In fact it could cause arcs to the dye if it's under the cup itself.
5) That wire you mention is normal, leave it there
6) The burned spots look to come from regular use. But it does look pretty bad. Are you in a hot climate (or has the machine been ?) The resistors themselves look good. They could still work OK. The tracks on the back look like the lost covering. Unable to see if there are any breaks or cracks from these pics though.


The best source for vector help is the vector e-mail list. You can register here: http://www.vectorlist.org/

Also, read this faq.
http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Monitors/FAQ%20Black%20and%20White%20XY%20Version%201.1%20dated%207%20Feb%2002.pdf

And then read it again. And again.

And the best accumated info for vector monitors is by my friend Speleo (Andreas)' site Here are some pics you can compare to:
http://andysarcade.de/data/picseries/vecmon_eh_g05805/overview.html

[csa3d]

Well first: Board 1 is called the deflection board. Board 2 is called the HV board.
1) That is a potmeter. It's a variable resitor that you can set with a screwdriver to the desired setting. At least that is what it used to be. Check the value of R905 in the manual for ordering a replacement
2) I think this is the rather special diode that is on the G05. Judging from other pictures the blackness is normal.
3) see 1)
4) You mean the HV cup. In normal cicumstances, and if the cup itself is still flexible enough, you should not need any goo at all. In fact it could cause arcs to the dye if it's under the cup itself.
5) That wire you mention is normal, leave it there
6) The burned spots look to come from regular use. But it does look pretty bad. Are you in a hot climate (or has the machine been ?) The resistors themselves look good. They could still work OK. The tracks on the back look like the lost covering. Unable to see if there are any breaks or cracks from these pics though.


The best source for vector help is the vector e-mail list. You can register here: http://www.vectorlist.org/

Also, read this faq.
http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Monitors/FAQ%20Black%20and%20White%20XY%20Version%201.1%20dated%207%20Feb%2002.pdf

And then read it again. And again.

And the best accumated info for vector monitors is by my friend Speleo (Andreas)' site Here are some pics you can compare to:
http://andysarcade.de/data/picseries/vecmon_eh_g05805/overview.html

Thanks so much for all this info!  Seems I have some more reading to do for sure.  I'm in Dallas, TX.  The machine has a state gaming sticker on it which makes me think it was in rotation in the Dallas area at least for part of it's coin-op existence.

So you think those burned resistors look normal?  I will pull out the meter and see if the traces are still in tact.  I guess worse case scenario would be to fill them with some solder or a jumper?  Someone on KLOV mentioned that they thought I might be able to replace them with some heavy gauge wire, as all they do is dissipate heat.  I'll have to check the monitor manual again, but I didn't see what they are actually called to tell if that's even a part I can special order to replace.

I also did not see a specific cap kit for this monitor from Bob Roberts, but I'd bet if I email him he'd have one.  I was able to locate a cap map for it on his site.

-csa

[csa3d]

Today I started reading and trying to put together a new shopping list for monitor repair.  I need some help figuring out exactly which trim pot I need to fix the EHT PCB.

This broken part here:

   

Measures out to fit the "Horizontal C Template" from Bob Robert's pot page:

   

According to the electrohome G05-805 manual I need a 4k7 Trim Pot.  Can somone take a look at Bob's pot page here and tell me which one I should get?  I'm guessing I need the next size up (Would that be 5k???).  If 5k is correct, which would be the best fit given the following Type C choices for 5K ( the P1033, the P1043, the P1051, the P1066 )?

Thanks!
-csa

[Level42]

Drop Bob an e-mail incl. your pic and ask him. He's great.

[csa3d]

Today I placed another order today to Bob for parts to fix the monitor.   My shopping list this time consists of:

Qty.       Item                                                     Price
--------------------------------------------------------------------
1x        G05-805 15" B&W x-y w/ x-sistors        $11
1x        T03 insulators (6)                                  $1.00
1x        2amp Fast Acting fuses                         $2.00
1x        5amp slow blow fuses                          $2.50
1x        5K Trim Pot, P1051                               $1.00
--------------------------------------------------------------------
USPS Priority - $7.00
Total - $24.50

Getting closer to getting this thing working.

-csa

[csa3d]

Today I did some cap repair on the G05 with the kit I ordered from Bob.  It was strait forward, but I realized that the kit did not include the two 6800uf 50v radial caps.  I also neglected to order a 1amp fuse.  I'll be submitting that order shortly.  I still need to repair the wiring harness with the new pins I've bought as well.  Then I think I'm ready to start plugging things in and hoping everything works.

Some questions:
1.) When I get to the point where I plug in the power supply and test voltages, do i want to have all the other components plugged in or do I leave certain parts disconnected until power is verified, etc?  Any advice on this topic would be great.

2.) I had to replace a trim pot on the G05.  Not that I trust that the other pots on the monitor boards aren't set incorrectly, but how should I go about adjusting all the pots should they need it?  I assume this is a "adjust as needed" thing, and there's probably a systematic way to go about adjusting one at a time until it looks right.  Any advice on this topic as appreciated.

I'm also curious how one adjusts a monitor in regards to it being powered on.  It has a scary warning sticker in there, and it seems possible that you have to poke around in there with tools to do the job.  How does one do this safely/correctly?

3.) There are 4 transistors on the bottom of the monitor which I've replaced with new transistor pads.  The old pads had white gunk around the pads, the new ones are clean and new.  I'm guessing that gunk was/is some sort of heat protecting cream?  Is this a gunk necessary and should I put an order in to get some for the new transistor parts?

Thanks so much!
-csa

[csa3d]

Last weekend I repaired the wiring harness with the new connector I ordered from Bob.  Placed another order with for the following parts:

2    6800uf 50volt radial caps for XY monitors - $10.00
1    1amp slow blow fuses - $2.50
1    7/8" cam lock - $3.00
1     tube heat sink compoud - $5.00
USPS Priority - $7.00
Total - $27.50

This parts list should complete all repairs for the "knowns".

The guys on KLOV suggested that I plug in only the power supply and keep all other parts disconnected while I test voltages.  I found a post here outlining how to test voltages.  Hopefully I the next post to the board will be of news where everything just magically works.  I have a feeling that I'll have some monitor adjustment questions seeing that I had to replace a pot on the HV board.

Till then
-csa

[csa3d]

Can anyone tell me what I incorrectly ordered here?  I was looking to replace the C100/C101 caps on the Electrohome G05 Deflection board.  The manual reads the description as, "6800uF 50v Elect."  I ordered the "6800uf 50volt radial caps for XY monitors" from Bob.  Pictured below are both parts.  I need the bigger part, with three pins.  I was shipped the smaller part with two pins.

Thanks
-csa

[csa3d]

So I emailed Bob with this confusion, and he set me straight with the following info:

You have the correct parts. Thirty-five years ago they did not have the
technology to make the physical size any smaller & therefore needed to have
a third leg for stabilization of the gargantuan container. Those caps are
long since obsolete, but the modern ones are much more efficient while
taking up half the real estate & do not need to be stabilized in any
manner.Disregarding the no connection (NC) leg you only need to determine
the + & - holes & fill in the NC hole with solder. The pic with the product
on my Parts Page http://therealbobroberts.net/6800-50.jpg shows the negative
stripe that goes to ground.... better yet, my Cap Map onsite shows where the
+ lead should be
http://therealbobroberts.net/g05802.html . Using modern caps is noted
throughout my Help Pages onsite in many of my ramblings.

Hope this helps someone else later down the line.  There's a lot to learn for a first time restorer!
-csa

EDIT:  Bob just sent me an email with an updated cap map diagram here, showing  how you swap out the big, older style ones to these new tiny ones.  Awesome!

[Spyridon]

I just picked up these:


All from Asteroids machines.  Let me know if anything will be useful to you.

[csa3d]

I just picked up these:


All from Asteroids machines.  Let me know if anything will be useful to you.

Hey thanks for the offer!  I think I'm good so far, but will definitely give you a shout if that changes.

-csa

[csa3d]

So today I got the last of the caps in the HV board, plugged everybody in and flipped it on to see what would happen.  I smelled some smoke and hear some arcing in the HV cage, I haven't opened it back up to see what went wrong yet.  I was hoping everything would magically light up, but that didn't happen.

So turning on self test, I unplugged the monitor and figured mind as well see if she plays bind.  With the self test, you're supposed to hear a series of beeps to tell you what's going on.  High means good, low beep means bad.  There should be multiple high beeps.  Luck not being on my side, I hear only 1 beep, and that beep is LOW.  This means that the first RAM chip fails self test. 

If I have to buy 1 ram chip, I'm assuming I mind as well replace them all.  If I only buy one, what's to say any of the others are good.  I'll have to order more anyways.  So this being said, can anyone steer me towards the proper place to get these ram chips?  The manual says I need "Item #152, part # 90-7033, Random Access Memory  (D2, E2, M4, N4, P4, R4)"

I also don't really where to go from here.  I'm assuming I should discharge the monitor, investigate what's smelling/burning/arcing on the HV board.  Any suggestions would be great.

Thanks
-csa

[csa3d]

Today I decided to to take some readings and photos, and hopefully generate some discussion on what to do next.

Here are my multimeter readings off my power block and AR-I, based on this KLOV thread about Asteroids Power readings:

=====================================
Power Brick
Remove the big 15 pin connector P5

***V***V***
*1***2***3*
*4***5***6*
*7***8***9*
*10**11**12*
*13**14**15*
***********
=====================================

Meter set to 20vdc
Red lead to pins 1, 2, 3
Black lead to pins 4, 5
Reading should be 10.3 vdc (could read high 13vdc as it is unregulated)

reading: 14.15 (high)


Meter set to 200vac
Red lead to pin 6
Black lead to pin 7
Reading should be 36 vac

reading: 37.5 (high)

Meter set to 20vac
Red lead to pin 8
Black lead to pin 9
Reading should be 6.3vac

reading: 7.1 (high)

Meter set to 200vac
Red lead to pin 11
Black lead to Pin 13
Reading should be 65vac
 
reading: 62.9 (low)


=====================================
A/R I
Remove the 9 pin connector P7 (P5 on the power brick must be plugged back in)

__^__^__
*1**2**3*
*4**5**6*
*7**8**9*
*********
=====================================

Meter set to 20vdc
Red lead to pins 5, 6
Black lead to pins 1, 4
Reading should be +5vdc (could be as high as 7 or 8 vdc because there is no load)


reading: 6.3

This has me thinking something on the power block is still not working right, as I'm not getting any readings anywhere near 60vac.  I also have no idea where to look on a schematic to find out what the readings should be, and why I have no pin in slot #12, but I have one in slot #11.

Anyone?
-csa

EDIT:  Started a discussion over here at KLOV as well
EDIT2:  Figured out proper pin-outs, attached image and updated chart above.  Readouts look good, though a bit high or low.  I've attached the pin-out diagram for reference.

[csa3d]

I also did a Self Test with the cab, since my sound appears to be working fine.  According to page 7 of the Asteroids Cocktail Manual you are to hear a series of beeps.  High beeps mean something passed, low beeps mean that item failed.  When tested, I hear only one low beep, meaning it's failing on the first RAM I'm guessing?

I am confused though, because the manual states there are to be 6 RAM locations (D2, E2, M4, R4, N4, P4).  Given my board...

D2    slot appears factory blank, no chips there, what do I do here? (see attached photo)  <-- Low beep, guess I am failing here??
E2    is shared with F2 and has a big chip in there (guess that means the RAM is part of the ROM?)
*see edit below *

M4    no questions here
R4    no questions here
N4    no questions here
P4    no questions here

I'm attaching all RAM/ROM pictures along with the manual descriptions.  Any suggestions??

-csa

EDIT:  Upon further investigation of the PDF manual I have, the PARTS list shows RAM being in locations (L2, M2, M4, N4, P4, R4). This differs from the chart on the SELF TEST page, which appears to incorrectly identify D2 and E2 as Ram locations.  Based on the PARTS list, all 6 chips are identical in that they share a common "UPD2114LC" code on the chip.

[csa3d]

more images..

[SirPeale]

If the RAM is socketed, you could pull it and swap it with another of the same kind on-board.  If it then passes that chip, it's either a bad chip or an intermittent connection.

[csa3d]

How does one identify a chip by popular name to order new ones with?  After researching a bit.. my best guess is that it has something to do with the printing on the chips.. and I'd also gather that it should begin with "UPD"?  I'm guessing my ram is type "2114", but I'd like to learn for sure so I can ID other chips/Roms on the board properly.

-csa

[csa3d]

I should also add, that I can hear some ticking/static somewhere in the monitor.. either in the EHT or the around the monitor neck. With lights turned off, the monitor neck has glow.. and I'm unable to see any sparking in the EHT.. so I'm not sure what's going in there. I cannot see any parts on the EHT board which appear burnt or blown since I've replaced them.

I can say that every time I've discharaged the monitor, I have never once heard a zap noise.

Also, when I was cleaning out parts on the monitor, the diode that connects the D904 EHT Rectifier (connects to anode tube) was SUPER sticky. I disconnected it, cleaned it as best I could, then put it back together.

There is a slight "hot" smell that I get after keeping the unit on a while poking my in there for inspection which makes me nervous. Not sure if this is something I should expect from 40 year old electronics or if something bad is going on.

-csa

[csa3d]

I placed an order for a logic probe, because I was told I need to test to see if my watchdog is barking:

If you have a logic probe, check pin 40 of the 6502 and see if that is pulsing. If it is, then either your watch dog is barking or your reset circuit has an issue.

If the watch dog isn't barking (pulsing) and the reset is, then you probably do have a bad RAM or something to do with the RAM (like address decoding, etc..)

In the meantime, does anyone have any suggestions what I can do to test the monitor?  Do I need working RAM/board first?  I'm holding off ordering 6 new rams until I test the watchdog, so hopefully if I have to order parts, I can order them all at once.

-csa

[SirPeale]

Wish I had an answer for you on that one.  Rasters are easy, there a million ways to get a raster signal.  Vector?  You'll need a vector generator.

[csa3d]

I have tested pin 40 of the 6502, and it tests as constantly being high. Does this test satisfy the watchdog test, or is that a separate test. If it's a separate test, can anyone tell me how to test that now that I am the proud owner of a logic probe?

Also on the good news front, today I realized there is a single point of light in the middle of the monitor, and no LEDs lit up on any boards in the monitor. I can hear what I"m guessing is "chatter", but my board is still not passing self tests.

Is the next step to purchase 6 things of new 2114 ram? Do I need to buy a HV diode or should I run with the one I have? I've read these are sometimes suspect as well.

-csa

[Spyridon]

Glad to see you are taking on this project, but you might be in over your head a bit right now (I know I would be).  Have you considered buying a working PCB and working monitor to get this going and using that to help trouble shoot the non working parts?  Once you get them working, you could sell them to make back the money you spent on the working parts?

[csa3d]

Glad to see you are taking on this project, but you might be in over your head a bit right now (I know I would be).  Have you considered buying a working PCB and working monitor to get this going and using that to help trouble shoot the non working parts?  Once you get them working, you could sell them to make back the money you spent on the working parts?

I have not considered that, no.  I am in a little over my head, but I don't feel overwhelmed just yet.  I feel pretty good that I can pick up what's going on with a little guidance and some hours of reading.  My biggest thing is you experienced guys call chips by names I'm unfamiliar with, and don't see listed as such on schematics.  It takes me some thread searching and cross referencing different information to figure out what is what.  From there, the tests seem rather simple and I'm pretty comfortable with program logic since I write code at work.

It's also kinda fun to me, so it's something I feel I would like to learn if possible.  If it continues to along the path of problem after problem, I might eventually get frustrated/impatient and just give up.  That being said, it's not really in my nature to do so.

I've placed an order from Bob for some new ram chips.  After all, the board is failing self test and blaming ram according to the test results.  Given that I've ensured my machine is not constantly resetting, I'm willing to buy that they are bad.  Especially given the number of blown fuses/pots/and burned traces on the machine when I got it.

-csa

[Spyridon]

Good to hear.  Keep at it and good luck.

[SirPeale]

The RAM chips aren't socketed (at least they don't look socketed in those pictures).  Being able to remove the old parts CLEANLY is very important.

I recently invested in a desoldering unit - the Aoyue 474A+.  It was ~$130 shipped plus a few extra parts (get more spring filters and sponge filters!)  A 100% necessary purchase IMO.  I was using a solder sucker and braid for years, and it was taking me forever to remove components.  Now I can remove a 40 pin chip in a matter of a few minutes. 

I was previously cutting out the old components, which sucked if I was unsure if they were bad or not.  With the desoldering unit it preserves their integrity until I can determine their worth.

And: don't forget SOCKETS.  Any time you remove a component, put a socket in its place.  They're cheap, and if you need to remove the component again for any reason it's just a matter of popping out the old one and replacing instead of unsoldering and possibly damaging the board.

[csa3d]

The RAM chips aren't socketed (at least they don't look socketed in those pictures).  Being able to remove the old parts CLEANLY is very important.

I recently invested in a desoldering unit - the Aoyue 474A+.  It was ~$130 shipped plus a few extra parts (get more spring filters and sponge filters!)  A 100% necessary purchase IMO.  I was using a solder sucker and braid for years, and it was taking me forever to remove components.  Now I can remove a 40 pin chip in a matter of a few minutes. 

I was previously cutting out the old components, which sucked if I was unsure if they were bad or not.  With the desoldering unit it preserves their integrity until I can determine their worth.

And: don't forget SOCKETS.  Any time you remove a component, put a socket in its place.  They're cheap, and if you need to remove the component again for any reason it's just a matter of popping out the old one and replacing instead of unsoldering and possibly damaging the board.

Yeah, I've placed an order with Bob for more Ram and sockets to match if he has them.  I agree, if I've gotta spend the time taking them out, sockets will make it 100 times faster in the future.

On the front of a desoldering station, what about that device makes it cleaner?  I've never seen one work, and assume the old solder is heated off then trapped somehow.  I've been using a braid.  The sucker I purchased first never seems to do anything other then irritate me by not removing anything I've melted.  Guess I should look into one of those.  I was hoping the desolder braid would allow me to clean them up enough to reuse them for testing purposes.

-csa

[SirPeale]

Oh...my...god...the desoldering unit is so awesome.  It surrounds the entire joint with heat, then uses a pump to suck away the solder, leaving a nice, clean, solder free hole.    It literally takes just a few moments to clear away the hole.

I'd been using a solder sucker and braid, and more often than not the solder on the TOP of the board wouldn't even melt.  Then you'd have to solder the joint again and resuck...might have to do that several times.  And of course the constant application of heat can damage the traces, the plated thru-holes, the PCB itself.

I always thought "what does a desoldering unit do that an iron and a solder sucker can't?"  And since they're usually pretty pricey I thought I'd never get one.  At ~$130 SHIPPED, it was worth every penny.  The time saved removing components...the money saved by being able to salvage possibly good components...but especially the time. 

http://www.sra-solder.com/Soldering_irons.htm is where I got mine from.  Practically within driving distance from me, but I had it shipped anyway.  I can't say enough good things about it and the company.  One of the pieces had a small defect on it, and they shipped a replacement piece out that day, and didn't want the old one back (of course it was just a gasket, but they certainly could have asked for the old one).

If you're going to be in this hobby for any length of time - heck, even if you aren't and just want to use this to fix this one board - the time saved alone will make this machine pay for itself its first use.

[csa3d]

No real news here on this update.  I started a thread in the monitor section over at KLOV to get some advice.  They gave me a bunch of good ideas and some more parts to test/check.  I'll likely look into that after I get the board passing self tests and playing blind.  So today, I'm really just posting parts order/price information here to keep a running tally.  Parts should arrive Monday:

Quantity       Price      Part
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  6              $15.00     2114-2L ram
  6              $  3.00     IC sockets for above ram
  1              $  2.50     PCB mounting feet
  1              $  1.00     PCB mounting feet to cab screws
  1              $  4.00     Bob's Plastic Alignment tool kit
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
USPS Priority - $7.00
Total - $32.50

-csa

[csa3d]

I just placed and order for a new tube since the one I has not one, but two different burn in patterns offset slightly. My plan is to get everything working with this older monitor, then do a swap out once I know it's all up and running. I picked up a 15ST4730R from Video Display Corp for just under $60 shipped. This is the same tube the B&W Vector Monitor FAQ references on page 21.

Does anyone have any links to any info outlining how one does the actual swap?

-csa

[csa3d]

Ok, removing these ram chips and installing sockets is no joke.  I'm on night #2 of it, and I've got all 6 ram chips off, and sockets mounted in 4 of them.  Should finish this tomorrow evening but man.. what a pain in the 

-csa

[SirPeale]

Should have bought the desoldering iron. 

[csa3d]

Should have bought the desoldering iron. 

LOL.  The irony here is that by the time I got the first chip off, I was mumbling those same thoughts.  I'm 90% certain that after this task I'll own one.

-csa

[csa3d]

Last night I got all 6 sockets mounted into the RAM banks and inserted new 2114 ram into the sockets.  Upon running self test, the first thing I noticed was that the testing tones were much different sounding.  The bad news is that I only get two test beeps.  This means self test did not complete, and there's something wrong with ram, specifically at position #2.  The odd thing is that the beeps were both low tones, and the manual states it's to be a high beep followed by a low beep.. high meaning item passes test, low meaning item has failed.

So I removed all the ram (thank god for new sockets) and put only 1 ram chip on the board in the first ram position and re-ran the test.  I get a high beep low beep!  I put a second chip in, I get low beep low beep.  Hmm... so i tried all the other 5 ram chips in position 2 to see if it had something to do with a faulty chip.  Same results.

This got me thinking that there's probably some circuit item around chip number 2 that is faulty, which is preventing the self test from working properly.  I checked all the traces on the sockets I just soldered for like the 17th time, and they all seemed to check out fine the best I can tell.  Looking at the traces, I started testing different components around ram #2.  There aren't that many components near by, so that didn't seem very complicated to do.

Call it luck, but I discovered a peculiarity in the bank of resistors at the top left corner of the board that all appear to have the same resistor installed.  Checking each with the multimeter, I found one which was not giving me a reading at R1, while all the others gave me readings around 22ohm.  I check the manual, and sure enough all those resistors are to read 22ohm.  So I think I found the offender all by myself  

Hopefully a trip to the store, a pack of 22 Ohm 1/4watt resistors, and the replacement of the resistor at R1 will lead me closer to completing self test.

-csa

[SirPeale]

Pull it out of circuit and read it to be sure. 

[csa3d]

Pull it out of circuit and read it to be sure. 

You're talking about the "bad" resistor, yes?

-csa

[SirPeale]

Yes.

[MaximRecoil]

I recently invested in a desoldering unit - the Aoyue 474A+.  It was ~$130 shipped plus a few extra parts (get more spring filters and sponge filters!)  A 100% necessary purchase IMO.  I was using a solder sucker and braid for years, and it was taking me forever to remove components.  Now I can remove a 40 pin chip in a matter of a few minutes.

I disagree. A good desoldering unit may be gentler than a good solder sucker, but it is not faster; nor does it work better.

However, there is only one solder sucker worth owning, and it is the classic fullsize Edsyn Soldapullt (models DS017, DS017LS, and AS196; they are all the same aside from their level of ESD-safeness). This is what we used at the PCB factory I worked at in the late '90s, and they work perfectly for what they are designed to do; with a single trigger pull; assuming they are used correctly. When used correctly, most components will simply fall out of the board when you are done (sometimes they may need a slight nudge on some of the legs with the iron).

We had high-end Metcal desolder units at the factory also, but they mostly collected dust. Most everyone used the Soldapullts for everything; including removing the terminal blocks off an entire board that some new-hire decided to solder on backwards or with the wrong blocks altogether (usually about 100 of them, 4 legs each); which took about 10 minutes.

Having the right type of solder sucker is important, but knowing how to use it is important as well. A mistake I've seen often is that people are afraid to let the plastic tip touch the hot iron; afraid that it will melt; so they are trying move the iron out of there and quickly get the sucker in there; and that never works right; because the solder will be partially cooled and you will only get some of it out. Here's a diagram I drew for another thread to show the proper relationship between the iron and the sucker when you pull the trigger:



And here's an old post from Ken Layton which sums it up perfectly:

I use an Edsyn "Soldapullt" model DS017 solder sucker. It workers great and it's a professional tool. I've worn out 3 of 'em over the past 25 years since I use it so much. I have no problem removing flybacks with this tool. In fact, it takes about 30 seconds to remove a flyback with this.

There are now appearing some similar looking (and much cheaper) solder suckers that look like a Soldapullt. These knock offs are cheap junk and you're throwing your money away on those knockoffs.

[csa3d]

When I unsoldered the bad resistor it cracked in half, so it was well on it's way out; no need to test it after removal  Put the new one in, did some MM tests, and put the PCB in the game and fired it up.  I have the same results I had before replacing it.  Two low beeps then nothing.  At this point, I have no clue what's wrong or where to test.  Unless someone here has some ideas, I'm off to KLOV to beg for help  

-csa

[MaximRecoil]

When I unsoldered the bad resistor it cracked in half, so it was well on it's way out; no need to test it after removal   Put the new one in, did some MM tests, and put the PCB in the game and fired it up.  I have the same results I had before replacing it.  Two low beeps then nothing.  At this point, I have no clue what's wrong or where to test.  Unless someone here has some ideas, I'm off to KLOV to beg for help   

-csa

Sometimes things can go wrong with boards that are well beyond being able to be fixed by someone who is learning as they go; asking questions on forums. For example, I got a Missile Command last summer, and when I first turned it on it worked. A few minutes later the picture went screwy. I figured that it probably wasn't anything major, because afterall, it was just working a second ago, and it is not as if anything was smoking. I tried the obvious things, like reseating all the socketed chips, replacing all the RAM chips (adding sockets in the process), cleaning contacts, reflowing dubious solder joints, etc.; and I asked plenty of questions on the forums. However, I got nowhere.

I finally sent it out to a Missile Command board repair specialist, and it turned out to be a challenge for even him to fix:

Yeah this one was a doozie. I'll give you some details if you're interested. When I got the board, did the inspection, replaced the crystal, etc, I plugged it in and the screen rolled. Hmmm. Usually a sign that either HSYNC or VSYNC is missing. I did some poking around and found the VBLANK was missing. I tracked that down to a 5-input NOR gate. It seemed that all of the inputs were firing, but there was no output. That's a classic sign of either a bad chip or a shorted load on its output. I replaced the NOR gate - still same problem. Uh oh. It must be a shorted load somewhere sinking a bunch of current from the output. I shotgunned all the loads, took them off the board, and replaced the NOR gate with a socket and new chip. STILL same problem! WTF???  As it turns out, one of the inputs to the NOR gate was *just* strong enough to trigger the voltage threshold on the logic analyzer, but still weak enough to NOT trigger the NOR gate! Son of a gun! I'm going to replace the driver tonight and see what happens.

And then:

Your MC board is now up and running! It was defiant until the end.

Yup ... if I lived to be 100 I never would have fixed it myself (unless I shotgunned the whole board).

BTW, his rates were extremely reasonable (don't know if they have changed since last summer or not):

Flat fee of $35 + parts + return shipping.

His name is bit_slicer on KLOV. I don't know if he works on Asteroids boards or not, but if you hit a deadend, you might want to send him a PM. He was a Godsend for me (and my Missile Command still works perfectly).

[csa3d]

Sometimes things can go wrong with boards that are well beyond being able to be fixed by someone who is learning as they go; asking questions on forums.

   Yeah, perhaps I'm at that spot.  I guess I'm hesitant because I've changed out so many parts on the board myself all ready, that part of me feels it's going to be one or two more tiny things that are broke that bring this back to life.  I'll give it a few more days then I'm likely gonna start contacting people about board repair.  Bummer..

On a brighter note, my tube replacement has arrived from Video Display Corp.  To my surprise, it arrived without being broke!  They packed the tube extremely well, and the box says in big black letters all over it "CATHODE RAY TUBE", "GLASS", "FRAGILE".  hahah  I suppose that gave the shipping guys enough warning to not beat the crap out of the box.  Too bad it's now gonna sit in that box until my board is repaired.

-csa

[csa3d]

Here's some images from the Ram --> IC Socket replacement I made this week.  I'm currently talking with another KLOV member about possibly sending out my board.  Quite a shame.. I feel like I've all ready dumped a bunch of money into trying to fix this myself, but I'm stuck so what do you do 

-csa

[csa3d]

more images..

-csa

[MaximRecoil]

Double-check all of your soldering. Some of those fillets look iffy. For example, on the M2 RAM, in the left-hand column of joints, the fillet on the 4th joint down appears to have a void in it. All of your fillets should be shiny and smooth, and shaped like an Atari Fuji logo.

[csa3d]

Double-check all of your soldering. Some of those fillets look iffy. For example, on the M2 RAM, in the left-hand column of joints, the fillet on the 4th joint down appears to have a void in it. All of your fillets should be shiny and smooth, and shaped like an Atari Fuji logo.

Yeah, that was a hard area to solder.  What looks like a void is actually a small tail which means too much solder.  Each of 'em passes continuity test, and I also checked that the traces which appeared bare wouldn't accidentally connected to any of the pins nearby which shouldn't have been.  Do you think resoldering them in this case would make a difference?  I was thinking about testing voltages on a chip level next and see what that says.

-csa

[MaximRecoil]

Do you think resoldering them in this case would make a difference?

Probably not.

BTW, it sounds like you need a smaller/thinner iron tip and/or smaller diameter solder wire if those seemed to be in a hard area to solder.

[Spyridon]

His name is bit_slicer on KLOV. I don't know if he works on Asteroids boards or not, but if you hit a deadend, you might want to send him a PM. He was a Godsend for me (and my Missile Command still works perfectly).

I've used bit_slicer for some repair work and highly recommend him.  He's an Atari expert, but I don't think he does any vector games.  You'll have to check with him to see.

[csa3d]

I've contacted road.runner.  I'm gonna ship it out to him to give it a shot.  He comes highly recommended for asteroids boards.

-csa

[Bangarang]

Any word on this yet?  Summer is closing in fast and you'll want something to do indoors with the AC on!

[csa3d]

Ok, here's the update:

Got the boards back from Road.Runner from KLOV.  Excellent work, highly recommend him if you have a board issue.  My asteroids board now plays blindly, as does my newly acquired asteroids deluxe with ROM mod to play in my cocktail.  This is the good news.

The bad news is that my deflection board in my monitor keeps blowing F700, R718, and R713.  This has happened twice, causing a small component fire each time, and melted the two big 6800uf caps thus far, and other various resistors in that area.  I've replaced parts twice now, and don't want to plug the board in again until someone helps me figure out what is going wrong properly.  If I plug in the deflection board again, it's just going to fry these parts, make me angry, and waist 2 hours of my day removing, cleaning, and repairing those parts for a third time now.

Here's my KLOV thread on this monitor issue, which I'd love if someone would chime in with advice, so it's not me just rambling on about things.







 
-csa

[csa3d]

Here's the schematic section that's causing me troubles on the G05-805.. parts in question highlighted in yellow.



-csa

[opt2not]

Sorry for resurrecting this post, but have you got anywhere with this lately?

I may have an asteroids cocktail "fall into my lap" in the near future that I will be restoring as well.
This one has been left out in the rain for about 4 months, so I'm not sure how much salvage there will be... 
Hopefully the glass allowed the rainfall to trickle off the sides, and not into the cab. But I've been told it hasn't been powered up since it's exposure so finger's crossed!

[csa3d]

I'm still futzing with getting the monitor to not collapse on the Y-Axis.  I'm likely going to take the monitor in for professional repair here locally, simply because I'm at a loss as to what is wrong with it at this point.  I'm sure whatever is wrong is probably really easy, and I've knocked off 75% of all the issues with it.  So I guess my answer is no, nothing has moved forward but yes, I've been thinking about finishing it

-csa

[opt2not]

Well if you don't mind, I've referenced your thread in my resto post. Lots of good info here thats has given me things to think about for mine.
I'm going to peruse the documentation a lot in the next few months. If I come accross any suggestions for your problem I'll be sure to let you know.
 

[ChadTower]

That looks like your B+ line.  Is that with the new tube?

[csa3d]

No, that's still the old tube.  I thought I get the old one working before putting the new one in.  That way if something went horribly wrong, I don't kill the new monitor.  It's been so long since I myself looked at this project, I don't recall a B+ line though.. where/what is this again to jog my memory?

-csa

EDIT:  Q708?

[ChadTower]

EDIT:  Q708?

That does seem to be the common path for all of those parts.

Do you have access to a tube rejuvinator?  It's possible the old tube is the problem here.

[csa3d]

Hmmm... I do not have one of those, nor know of anyone locally (free) who would have one.  Man... now I'm tempted to throw in the other monitor and see if it just works.  I swear I've tested those bottle caps three times now, replacing them twice.  I doubt they are the issue to be honest.

-csa

[ChadTower]

Where are you located?


EDIT:  is the location in your profile correct?  There has to be someone from here around Dallas with a rejuvinator.

[csa3d]

I'm located in Rowlett, TX which is just outside Dallas
-csa

[ChadTower]

Post here and on KLOV looking for use of a rejuvinator in the Dallas area.  I'd be shocked if you don't find someone willing to help out.