Limited Edition Run On New LOTR

[Xiaou2]

The real problem here is that you're just not able to see that Stern does put out some good stuff. Lord of the Rings, Spider-Man, Family Guy/Shrek, and The Simpsons Pinball Party stand up well with the top tier Williams and Bally games. Unless you can see that, this discussion will remain circular though.

 No, they dont.  Not even close.

 Family guy / Shrek plays horribly, with slow and bad flow.  Simpsons isnt too much better... (my first game on the machine was clocking in over 30min... and I left the
machine with a ton of balls left because it was too easy and too boring.  Whitewater
has been known to take me out in less than 5 min play, kicking my butt so hard I
actually wanted to play over and over again...)  but at least the theme is superior. 

 Spiderman is a snorefest too, (much worse than Simpsons, and worse theme+art+sounds)   and got old in less than 10 min of play.  Walked away from that
one too.

LOTR is the only one to show any promise at all... and it falls flat in two areas:

 1) The side drains are incredibly cheap even when adjusted to full easy level.  They
take the skill away from pinball, and simply rip the player off with no chance in hell for
a save.

 2) The Path of the Dead is Useless and a waste of good ball speed, and further gameplay.


 Also, They all sound like a 30yr old tv thats been sitting out in the rain.  Rather than the crisp details of Williams vastly superior  DTS sound system.

 
 None of these titles compare to a game like  Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc.    Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.

 The people who think they enjoy Sterns machines are people that havnt played such
said Titles. (or played broken / beat up machines)   Once you have tasted Fillet Minion,
a hamburger just does not satisfy...  especially when that hamburg cost the same
as that tender juicy slice of heaven.

[akoz]

A used Midevil Madness might be worth $5000...   But certainly not a LOTR.

Medevil madness- http://www.pinball.com/medieval-remake/medieval-remake.htm

There homepage with other remakes- http://www.pinball.com/

[Flake]

None of these titles compare to a game like  Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc.    Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.

You realize you mentioned a Gottlieb game in there right?  I just wanted to make since you seem to be exclusively Bally/Williams.

BTW - I've played Medieval Madness and LOTR.  I think MM is fun but I have no idea why its considered the holy grail of pinball.  Its not any more fun IMO than TOM or TOTAN or even LOTR.  So whats the deal with MM anyway?  Why the premium on this game?

[Jeff AMN]

A used Midevil Madness might be worth $5000...   But certainly not a LOTR.

Medevil madness- http://www.pinball.com/medieval-remake/medieval-remake.htm

There homepage with other remakes- http://www.pinball.com/

That's a scam. Do NOT send Wayne a single penny.

[Jeff AMN]

I absolutely love Medieval Madness. I think it's a very fine game, but I wouldn't pay the asking price for it. If it was in the $3,000-$3,500 range I'd probably already have one, but that game drifts as far north as $8,000 quite often depending on condition. I just can't pay that for a game that's basically a refresh of Attack From Mars (another great game).

For the record, I feel the same way about Monster Bash. It's one of my all time favorites to play, but I'd never pay the asking price on that machine.

And with some more thinking, I might drop my preorder for LOTR. I still feel that it's one of the best pins ever made, but I think I'd rather seek out a nice HUO machine when the limited editions hit and people are flipping their original purchases.

[shardian]

There is no logical reason whatsoever why Medieval Madness should sell for thousands more than Scared Stiff, Attack from Mars, or other ~1996 williams pins.

[ChadTower]

Thank GOD I'm not all that into DMD games, that's all I gotta say.  I just don't see how so many of them are 5x better than a good earlier SS game.

[Aceldamor]

 
 None of these titles compare to a game like  Tales from the Arabian Knights, Monster Bash,
Medieval Madness, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Indiana Jones (WMS), Whitewater,
Haunted House, Space Station, Theatre of Magic, etc.    Not in art, ball speed, challenge,
fun, theme, sound quality, and value.


 The people who think they enjoy Sterns machines are people that havnt played such
said Titles. (or played broken / beat up machines)   Once you have tasted Fillet Minion,
a hamburger just does not satisfy...  especially when that hamburg cost the same
as that tender juicy slice of heaven.

Personally I have played a majority of the above mentioned titles, and though I agree that some are superior, I have a grievance with some of the thought process.

Doesn't Indiana Jones have a similar side play field that the ball slows down on as well, not to mention the sheer chance of the magical target that just happens to line up with the center of the play field, draining balls quite regularly?

As for theme, yeah those titles have wonderful themes, but how can you say that Pirates, LoTR, and even the not so hot ones don't have a great theme/art?

Now I am not one to go apeshiz on who makes a more superior pinball, simply because I don't care who makes it as long as I enjoy it, (I mean my god...my favorite pin is the universal monsters making a band.....good god) but some logic was a bit off to me....

[Jeff AMN]

Xiaou2 is just a blind hater...you're not going to reason with him.

[Xiaou2]

Xiaou2 is just a blind hater...you're not going to reason with him.

Heh!  And Who is taking it Personal and dishing the hate?    
 
 I dare say I have played far more 'near perfect' machines, and in longer time quantities.
Im less of a hater, and more of a game lover.   Not just pins, but vids, electromechanicals,
or any other sort.  I have a strong opinion, because I have such a wide base of
experience with them.

Doesn't Indiana Jones have a similar side play field that the ball slows down on as well, not to mention the sheer chance of the magical target that just happens to line up with the center of the play field, draining balls quite regularly?

 Actually, Indys center target is a bank of drop targets.  Hit one of them, and you can
enter the ball lock behind it.   Drains down the center are not very frequent. Maybe the
one you played was not centered properly.

 The ball speed on a  WMS  Indiana  is slower than some other  WMS  games.  Its more
like an older EM machine.   However... unlike  LOTR,  Indys ball flow can be nearly
non-stop... going from one shot to the next effortlessly and smoothly.  LOTR Stops the
ball completely when it has to pop up to the path of the dead... and them you basically
WATCH the ball come down slowly.  A Non-Interactive, huge waste of time.

 LOTRs flow path isnt nearly as complex nor smooth as Indys.  Where as Indy has both
ramps you can successively combo off of... as well as the full outer loop pathway.

 Indys Side-Path is completely different,  in that its Interactive.  You use the left
and right flippers to tilt the mini playfeild in order to try to collect the lit stones.
The timing can be very challenging, and its a very fun part of the game. 

 It takes some efforts to merely get access to the "Path of Adventure",  and then you
have to try to get up the correct ramp,  and then score well on the stones... and then
try over and over before the mode is up.   

 LOTR - Path of the dead, is Easy to get up into... and its non-interactive.   There is
really little incentive or 'joy' ?!  when the ball goes down it.  In fact, every time the ball
enters that damn popper... it ticked me off... knowing how long it was going to take to
get back to any real action.

As for theme, yeah those titles have wonderful themes, but how can you say that Pirates, LoTR, and even the not so hot ones don't have a great theme/art?

 Have you looked even at a pinball playfeild?!   Stern uses a really low-resolution ink-jet
style of printing.  Its really awful.   The colors are Bland, and you can see the Huge dots
clearly that make up the pictures.

 Williams used high resolution silk screening, and a hand drawn comic-book like artistry.  Stern uses a generic Photoshop edit session for their  supposed art.  Its completely different.  Very lame.  Very generic.  Very Un-Inspiring.

 If you are going to opt to use Photo-Realistic captures.. then they should be in
high resolution... else they look corny as heck.  Its bad enough that they use
photographs and poor photoshop edits rather than get REAL ARTISTS to draw
and paint real ART.

 Go compare Williams greats, to any of Sterns... and see Sterns Pale in comparison.


Now I am not one to go apeshiz on who makes a more superior pinball, simply because I don't care who makes it as long as I enjoy it, (I mean my god...my favorite pin is the universal monsters making a band.....good god) but some logic was a bit off to me....

 Monster Bash - I believe you are speaking off..  and yeah, it was by Williams.
Like most all good pins.

 
 Ohh and yeah,  Im fully aware of who makes what pins.  I may mention Williams the
most... but there were some great pins by the other manufacturers.  However, Ive
yet to play a Stern that I actually enjoy even the slightest compared to the much
older others.   In some cases...  Id prefer to play an EM over a modern stern.

[koolmoecraig]

It's really simple supply and demand here.

Think of the prices that a lot of the late Bally/Williams titles command.  In restored/NIB condition as to be compared with a NIB Stern.

MM's are around $7-8k restored.
Cactus Canyon around $8-9k
Monster Bash $4-5k
AFM $5-6k

There is obviously a demand that outstrips the supply.  You could sell brand new MM, AFM, CC all day long at the $5000 it costs for a new Stern.  $5000 "player" condition MM's are snapped up quickly.  You would destroy the inflated prices of the original machines but that's a good thing if it's an EXACT remake of the original.(No inkjet, photoshop artwork).

I couldn't imagine the BS involved with doing it but if Stern could do it, I do not doubt they could do it profitably.

Tamiya did this with their old R/C cars.  They did exact remakes.  It killed the values of the originals by about 50%.

BTW, Apparently there were only around 900 Family Guy pins made.  They anticipated a lot more demand so they were left with a ton of left over parts.  That's what led to the Shrek pin.

Anyway, it's never gonna happen but it sure would be nice.

[shardian]

The reason those games command so much is because of the 'rareness'.  As soon as you pop that balloon you're going to have a tough time selling them for $5k "all day long". 

Cactus Canyon is the only pin that falls into the rare category at ~900 units. Medieval madness had almost the exact same production numbers as Scared Stiff and Attack from Mars - around 4000 units. Why is it consistently more expensive then by $2k or more? One of these days I'll get a real answer to that question. Personally, I'm in the camp that MM is inflated in price.

[divemaster127]

Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now.  I am curious what it will look like
dm

[shardian]

Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now.  I am curious what it will look like
dm

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say:
2 flippers
3 pop bumpers
2 bays of worthless targets to spell "Hobbit" or "Bilbo".
2 ramps
and a whole crap load of 2-d "toys" made of pieces of flat arcrylic with inkjet art on them.

[divemaster127]

yep, now i have to have one

[shardian]

Wouldn't it be funny if I got a C&D letter from a Stern lawyer asking where I got my info? That would be hilarious.

[Jeff AMN]

Stern has the new LOTR pin (the hobbit) version in design state right now.  I am curious what it will look like
dm

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say:
2 flippers
3 pop bumpers
2 bays of worthless targets to spell "Hobbit" or "Bilbo".
2 ramps
and a whole crap load of 2-d "toys" made of pieces of flat arcrylic with inkjet art on them.

Not sure that's fair...

Stern still partners with most of the good designers to have their designs made. From a pure gameplay perspective, the games are typically pretty solid. I can agree with the inkjet art, but the actual designs aren't bad. They're kind of on a hot streak with Spider-Man, CSI, 24, and NBA. All of them play well and have had some great designers (Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawlor, etc.) involved with their creation.

[RayB]

They should attempt an original non-licensed title.

Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.

Hard to do without pinball designers though. 

[shardian]

Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.

Video mode on Elvis is a DDR clone. Most collectors HATE that video mode.

[RayB]

Or they could have also innovated and cashed in on the rythm-game craze and come up with some sort of pinabll / rythm game hybrid.

Video mode on Elvis is a DDR clone. Most collectors HATE that video mode.

Yeah, Stern are screwed.
Anything that would make in-roads with a younger newer crowd will be crapped on by "the collectors", and yet catering to just the collectors is barely sustainable as a business.
Bye Stern!

[GPE]

I think their licenses are odd choices too. Big Buck Hunter is coming out next and I have ZERO interest in that license as a pinball. Here are some licenses that would probably do well for Stern:
...
- Ghostbusters (time has kinda passed, but our generation would eat it up)

I think they should start a Ghostbusters theme now.  They can get the game theme  and design done early. Finish the artwork when more information about the new Ghostbusters movie comes out.  Would be slick if they could actually release the game at the same time the new Ghostbusters movie hits the theaters.

Ed

[shardian]

What Stern should have lobbied for years ago - a Discovery channel TV show like American Chopper. That is the only thing that could save them at this point.

[Jeff AMN]

I think Stern will go bankrupt before he gives up the business. I'm sure there are lots of other people that could do better than Gary does, but the facts are that he's all that's left. Maybe one day he'll step down and a major shift in philosophy will take place over at Stern and you'll have Steve, Pat, and other greats coming back, but for now I'm just happy that pinball is still alive and that Stern does at least put out some good games.

[Jeff AMN]

Maybe they didn't sell a ton of pins, but they made good games. Family Guy/Shrek, Spider-Man, Lord of the Rings, 24, and CSI all play great. I can't complain about those at all, even if they weren't mainstream hits. Wheel of Fortune is really interesting, but it's severely gimped by unfinished code and a lame theme.

The designers can still design good games, but the marketing and theme choices are not up to snuff these days.

[FrizzleFried]

I don't have a lot of experience with newer pins,  but I will say that I played Family Guy ONCE and walked away after 10 minutest of play without sinking a single ball.  My plane was boarding.  I was super surprised at how easy it was... too easy.