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15KHZ on a 31KHZ Monitor

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CheffoJeffo:


--- Quote from: genesim on May 15, 2009, 02:45:59 am ---As for the the quote, the part that is deceptive is that he is saying only PCB's and CGA cards put out 15khz...aparently this is not so.

Arcade VGA does this..."not just PCB's and CGA" cards.  That was false from the first post.  And I was correct from my first reponse when I talked about the 15khz to 31khz scaling.

If Cheffo wasn't aware that I was right, he should have just said so.   I am even gave him a link and he still didn't seem to understand.

--- End quote ---


--- Quote from: CheffoJeffo on May 12, 2009, 09:50:48 am ---
--- Quote from: genesim on May 12, 2009, 09:37:42 am ---
--- Quote ---About the only things that I have seen put out 15KHz are arcade PCBs and CGA video cards
--- End quote ---

If this is true, then what is the purpose of Advance MAME?

--- End quote ---

Making a VGA video card act like CGA video card ?

I guess I should add ArcadeVGA cards and cards running under Soft15KHz as well, but if they are putting out a 15KHz signal, to my mind the cards are behaving as CGA.

--- End quote ---

saint -- can we get a facepalm smiley ? We're gonna need it if gene is going to stick around!



CheffoJeffo:


--- Quote from: genesim on May 15, 2009, 12:20:57 am ---The key word is NATIVE.   There is only one way this(MAXIMIZED resolution) is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate(that is scaled to fit within the difined parameters of a modern day PC which cannot take that low refresh rate with said resolution)...SCALING.

--- End quote ---

You see, to me, this line screams that you don't understand what you are talking about with respect to CRTs ... "maintaining the correct refresh rate". The refresh rate is the variable component, since the scan rate is fixed (well, for multisyncs, you have a choice) and the number of lines is determined by the game.

genesim:

Well to your mind you don't understand the difference.

The Arcade VGA is not a CGA card.    It not only can put out a Horizontal frequency of 15khz, but also 25khz...etc.

Plus of course the scaling features.   Not exactly the same, even if "behaving like one" is part of it.  But what it does do is blow your whole arguement to bits that "PCB's and CGA" are all there is.   As pointed out by others, there are more.

As for "this line screams that you don't understand what you are talking about with respect to CRTs"

Mabye Andy can help you out:


--- Quote ---Why can't you run your normal PC SVGA monitor at 31Khz with these low game resolutions?
--- End quote ---



--- Quote ---The answer is this: The vertical refresh rate is a simple calculation: Hfreq divided by lines. Therefore as the number of lines is reduced, the vertical refresh rate goes up. So for a vertical resolution of 256, the vertical refresh would be 121Hz, which the monitor (probably) cannot handle. This is why PC monitors cannot display these resolutions natively. The option of reducing the pixel clock is not there because SVGA monitors cannot display under 31Khz Horizontal. A few high-resolution arcade monitors can display the entire range 15Khz - 31Khz and these are ideal but expensive.
--- End quote ---

Its really not that hard to interpret but lets go for it anway.

My quote and then what corresponds me first..Andy second.


--- Quote ---The Key word is Native-
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---This is why PC monitors cannot display these resolutions natively.
--- End quote ---

xxxxxxxxx


--- Quote ---There is only one way this(MAXIMIZED resolution) is truly possible while maintaining the correct refresh rate
--- End quote ---


--- Quote ---So for a vertical resolution of 256, the vertical refresh would be 121Hz
--- End quote ---

Note...or you can have multiple pixels represented for every one...hmmm

xxxxxxx


--- Quote ---(that is scaled to fit within the difined parameters of a modern day PC which cannot take that low refresh rate with said resolution)...SCALING.
--- End quote ---

Should have been clear, but I stated it again in case you missed it.

Nothing "screaming that you don't understand" here.

Maintaining the refresh rate absolutely makes sense.   Hence the picture having to be drawn tiwce and thus accomodating a higher refresh rate.







CheffoJeffo:


--- Quote from: genesim on May 15, 2009, 09:12:35 am ---Should have been clear, but I stated it again in case you missed it.

Nothing "screaming that you don't understand" here.

Maintaining the refresh rate absolutely makes sense.   Hence the picture having to be drawn tiwce and thus accomodating a higher refresh rate.

--- End quote ---

I cited the basic formula for refresh rates on CRTs and explained how the scan rate is fixed by the monitor and the resolution is fixed by the game, which means that the refresh rate is NOT fixed. If you dispute any of those facts, please address then specifically:

- is the scan rate fixed by the monitor (remember, we are talking about CRTs, NOT LCDs ... big frakking difference in that regard) ?
- is the resolution fixed by the game ?

If you answered yes to the above, then how can you possibly maintain that the refresh rate is something to be maintained ? Do you dispute the formula ?

I am trying, as I did two years ago when you first started spouting off about video stuff, trying to remain civil, but I don't understand how you can be missing the obvious and be so obnoxious in your ignorance.

 :dunno

genesim:


--- Quote ---I cited the basic formula for refresh rates on CRTs and explained how the scan rate is fixed by the monitor and the resolution is fixed by the game, which means that the refresh rate is NOT fixed.
--- End quote ---

No I do not dispute this.


--- Quote ---- is the scan rate fixed by the monitor (remember, we are talking about CRTs, NOT LCDs ... big frakking difference in that regard) ?
--- End quote ---

It depends on the monitor.   Multisync NO, Fixed YES


--- Quote ---- is the resolution fixed by the game ?
--- End quote ---

Grey area.   If we are talking about the original code then YES, but the resolution can change depending on the program.  But I assume you are speaking about code so the answer is YES.

NOW lets get to your problem.


--- Quote ---then how can you possibly maintain that the refresh rate is something to be maintained ? Do you dispute the formula ?
--- End quote ---

EASY.   The refresh must be maintained to draw the picture on a current monitor with no scaling.    Lets break it down even further.

If you have a bunch of bricks you are laying and it takes you 15 seconds to do it...then if you have 30 seconds you will have laid twice the amount of bricks.    The problem is this, a monitor will have to work twice as hard because in 30 seconds it also has to lay that many more bricks sticking to the original formula to stay true without deviating.

No different then arcade resolution.  To stay true to PACMAN which has less resolution, you will have drawn the image that many more times in the set interval because it is not only less amount of pixels, but it is refreshed that much quicker.

Now MY IGNORANCE?   Do you understand this FACT?

The only way to get a modern computer to understand this is to tell it to redraw the image to fit the current standard.   Andy lines this out perfectly and you ignore it.    Read it and then understand.

What I have always meant by maintaining the refresh rate is having proper scaleup while staying true to the native image. 

You like to twist it around to some kind of simplistic notion that I think refresh rates don't change.  NOT TRUE.   For all CRT monitors there is a little trick I can show you..

Go to control panel-->appearances and themes-->display-->settings-->advanced-->monitor-->SCREEN REFRESH RATE.

 



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