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| 1UP:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on May 12, 2009, 10:18:24 pm ---The stick looks good. I will comment... that if you compare a Leaf button from a game like Asteroids Deluxe, many who have never played (and even some who have) the original game with original leafs... they will feel the buttons are too fatiguing to press rapidly. The problem is misunderstanding. Leafs do not have to be pushed all the way down. You can reach the point of contact, and barely wiggle the thing to get it to rapid-fire with almost no effort at all. Even the easiest actuating microswitch can not compete with the rapidfire possible with a leaf. Because the even tho the actuation is quick and easy, you need a greater distance to un-click and reset the switch. A leaf can be nearly infinitely small in reset distance. Less than a sheet of onion paper. A micro-leaf reset is probably at least 1mm, standard micros usually more. (And not counting the start distance) --- End quote --- I'm guessing this is the real purpose of the leaf spring on the Happ trigger mechs. The trigger actually pushes on the spring, and the spring pushes on the actuator arm of the microswitch, providing some leverage and therefore narrowing the distance the trigger must be pulled. |
| Xiaou2:
Its probably just to aid return. The switch alone doesnt have enough pressure to return with enough bounce to overcome finger grip pressures good enough. Also, Being that the leaf is struck by the trigger, reduces the possibility of damages to the microswitch actuator. Also, no matter how well you optimize and create leverages... the micro will always need a set distance for resetting. Where as a leaf will not.. which means a leaf can rapid-fire much much faster. |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on May 12, 2009, 10:18:24 pm --- The problem is misunderstanding. Leafs do not have to be pushed all the way down. You can reach the point of contact, and barely wiggle the thing to get it to rapid-fire with almost no effort at all. Even the easiest actuating microswitch can not compete with the rapidfire possible with a leaf. Because the even tho the actuation is quick and easy, you need a greater distance to un-click and reset the switch. A leaf can be nearly infinitely small in reset distance. Less than a sheet of onion paper. A micro-leaf reset is probably at least 1mm, standard micros usually more. (And not counting the start distance) --- End quote --- No misunderstandings here, Steve. The new sticks directly from HAPP use a microswitch (with a spring of it's own) and a long piece of beefy spring steel, which acts as a return for the trigger. The reason it was designed like this is due to the environment they were meant for. It only takes a tiny bit of gunk in the socket where the trigger part pivots and then it will no longer pivot well. As gunk is a norm for arcade controls, this would have meant down time and lost revenue. In one's home, this level of "bulletproof" isn't really necessary, so one can reasonably use parts which afford a bit more comfort. Also, your 1mm reset distance is way off. Even a normal Cherry pushbutton switch is about 2/3rds of that, and the "Micro-Leaf" style are about half of the Cherry's. The biggest challenge with a microswitch is finding that point where quick oscillation of the snap trigger is possible and keeping the button pressed to that point consistantly. If one could "pre-load" the actuation so it sat at that exact distance at the highest point of the plunger travel, rapid oscillation would be much easier. The Micro-Leaf switches do this to a good extent, which is why they are so popular. All of that is pretty much a moot point in this discussion though, as one still needs to overcome the heavy resistance of that original return spring, which will cause a good deal of fatigue whether it is being held or depressed, leaf or no leaf. Getting rid of that resistance may, as I stated, be desireable to many. RandyT |
| Xiaou2:
--- Quote ---No misunderstandings here, Steve. --- End quote --- SO, you are saying that ALL people do not Misunderstand how Leaf buttons work best? Funny, because just YESTURDAY I had an old KungFu student drop by for a visit... and he played a couple games of Asteroids Deluxe - and commented on how tired his fingers were getting. Then I explained the trick to them... and immediately he played better with no abnormal fatigue. Also, I was once part of the Ignorant group. And I assure you... that grouping is Very large. --- Quote ---The new sticks directly from HAPP use a microswitch (with a spring of it's own) and a long piece of beefy spring steel, which acts as a return for the trigger. --- End quote --- That was already stated. --- Quote ---The reason it was designed like this is due to the environment they were meant for. It only takes a tiny bit of gunk in the socket where the trigger part pivots and then it will no longer pivot well. --- End quote --- HUH?! AFAIK, the trigger Pivot is at the Top-most point, where its very hard to gunk up. Not only that... but the Leaf spring is Not in front of that part, nor protecting that so called Gunk from the pivot point of the trigger. Unless you are speaking about the Microswitch actuator itself. Which considering your wording.. does not seem to match up Imop. I did mention Protecting the switch from abuse. Sure, I didnt mention Gunk... but to me, thats very obvious and logical anyways. --- Quote ---As gunk is a norm for arcade controls, this would have meant down time and lost revenue. In one's home, this level of "bulletproof" isn't really necessary, so one can reasonably use parts which afford a bit more comfort. --- End quote --- Comfort was not mentioned in my argument. Speed of rapidly repeated actuation's were. --- Quote ---Also, your 1mm reset distance is way off. Even a normal Cherry pushbutton switch is about 2/3rds of that, --- End quote --- Actually, what was meant is that the Micros have to travel at least a full MM distance from actuation to reset for one button push cycle. EVERY TIME. Its pretty much easy for anyone to clearly see this. Even IF you get the switch to actuate in the upper range... Due to the nature of the internal spring, it is impossible to keep it from snapping Past that point and going the full travel, and needing again to travel all the way back up - as again... its not feasable to try to stop the micro at a paper thin point right before actuation. So, no matter how you slice it... you will always be limited to at least 1mm travel on standard micros for each press... and maybe 1/2 mm travel for your micro leafs at best. A Leaf can be an onion skin away from contact, and vibrating it on and off takes little more than a feather touch. No hard pressure (resistance) Mouse trap style Snap Spring to overcome at each press. --- Quote --- and the "Micro-Leaf" style are about half of the Cherry's. The biggest challenge with a microswitch is finding that point where quick oscillation of the snap trigger is possible and keeping the button pressed to that point consistantly. If one could "pre-load" the actuation so it sat at that exact distance at the highest point of the plunger travel, rapid oscillation would be much easier. The Micro-Leaf switches do this to a good extent, which is why they are so popular. --- End quote --- The internal Snap Spring is designed in such a way that it will last a long time, and give very positive reaction. When one tries to Modify that action, by adding spacers to tighten up the spring travel... basically, they are more likely to reduce the springs lifespan for accurate snap. It will flatten out quickly and become worthless. The better idea, IMOP, would be to use leafs with a limited travel button assembly, that has a definite bottom. So the leafs would not over-bend. Or maybe a Harder coil spring Under the leaf which acts as energy return, as well as keeping the switch from getting destroyed (and providing a smoother feel instead of a hard crash from Bottoming out) --- Quote ---All of that is pretty much a moot point in this discussion though, as one still needs to overcome the heavy resistance of that original return spring, which will cause a good deal of fatigue whether it is being held or depressed, leaf or no leaf. Getting rid of that resistance may, as I stated, be desireable to many. RandyT --- End quote --- Admittedly, As far as I remember the triggers on the heavy duty sticks were a bit much pressure. Then again, I recall playing tron on the higher stages and it working incredibly well... which was really needed considering how fast the MCP cone gets. Im not so sure microleafs could attain that level of speed needed to perform that well on those higher levels. ...But... to each his own. |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on May 13, 2009, 02:09:35 am ---SO, you are saying that ALL people do not Misunderstand how Leaf buttons work best? Funny, because just YESTURDAY I had an old KungFu student drop by for a visit... and he played a couple games of Asteroids Deluxe - and commented on how tired his fingers were getting. Then I explained the trick to them... and immediately he played better with no abnormal fatigue. Also, I was once part of theIgnorant group. And I assure you... that grouping is Very large. --- End quote --- Not relevant to this thread.... --- Quote --- HUH?! AFAIK, the trigger Pivot is at the Top-most point, where its very hard to gunk up. Not only that... but the Leaf spring is Not in front of that part, nor protecting that so called Gunk from the pivot point of the trigger. --- End quote --- Not hard at all. Operators shoot cleaners at the controls which leave residue, soda gets spilled, etc., etc... Take any old control that's been in the field and open it. Where do you think any of that filth comes from? --- Quote --- So, no matter how you slice it... you will always be limited to at least 1mm travel on standard micros for each press... and maybe 1/2 mm travel for your micro leafs at best. --- End quote --- You are quite incorrect. I just put some digital calipers on a standard HAPP button with the big, normal, Cherry switch. I zeroed it when it clicked. I then opened the calipers until it released and noted the distance. Steve, it was 1/4 mm or less, every time. As I stated, the issue isn't the "reset" of the switch, it's the individual's ability to find it and keep the plunger there. --- Quote ---Im not so sure microleafs could attain that level of speed needed to perform that well on those higher levels. --- End quote --- Well, since you don't have one of the trigger assemblies and haven't tried it, I don't know how you could be. But I am. RandyT |
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