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Dream Authentics LCD Claims

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SavannahLion:


--- Quote from: ChadTower on March 25, 2009, 09:17:58 am ---
--- Quote from: MonMotha on March 24, 2009, 12:58:04 pm ---Really, the reason these aren't repairable is because it isn't worth it to do so.  Making the device easier to repair would inflate the price by ~10-25%, and prices are already so low that it isn't worth paying a repairman for his/her time, so why not shave the extra 10-25% off and just make replacement cost less.  Besides, when it dies, you'll be able to buy something 10 times better for 1/10th the price.

--- End quote ---

That's pretty much where I was going.  Unless you can swap a replacement board in, and those tend to go OOP within 12 months of production, it's just not worth the repair cost most of the time now.  Sad, really, as it produces even more toxic electronic trash than before.

--- End quote ---

Finally! Someone who actually "gets it." Even if you were to strip the lead and other (much needed) toxic metals out, any environmental "savings" one gains is moot when those "green" electronics gets dumped, trashed, or shipped out to China for "recycling."

What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

Anyhow, I digress. I just believe CRT is getting a bad rap from the environmentalists, especially considering environmentalists can't decide whether we should use renewable resources, or save a few tortoises. ???

MonMotha:


--- Quote from: SavannahLion on March 26, 2009, 06:16:20 pm ---What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

--- End quote ---

Actually, CRT televisions have gotten to the same point as LCDs.  They're so cheap that it's not worth paying a repairman to work on them.  This is especially true of the models targeted at people who would actually buy a CRT over an LCD (mostly small, cheap ones).  Why pay a repairman $100 to show up plus $50/hr (or whatever) when you can just go buy a new TV for $100 (or less!) and be done with it?

You could argue that the TV repairman is overcharging, but he/she is simply charging what he/she needs to.  See, if he/she were to go into a different industry as a technician, the billable rate would be about the same.  How much do you pay electricians?  Plumbers?  There is a reason TV repairmen are getting harder and harder to find.

What has happened is that production costs have gotten SO cheap that it now costs less to build a new television than anybody is willing to fix it for.  This is mostly due to the disparity in labor rates between the production site (usually mainland China these days, but sometimes Taiwan, Korea, or Singapore) and where the repairman lives (the USA).  This has benefits: new TVs are really, really cheap.  However, it also has downsides: more waste due to everything being "disposable" since it makes no economic sense to repair it.



--- Quote from: RandyT on March 26, 2009, 04:53:40 pm ---Heh.  Another big challenge is just identifying the parts.  Not such a big deal if you happen to have a schematic, but that's often very difficult to come by for some of these "here today, gone tomorrow" boards you find in LCD panels.

Small parts often means cryptic labeling.

--- End quote ---

True, though I've inevitably found that, once I do finally ID them, I can't buy parts like that anyway.  They're usually only for sale in China or Korea and in rather large volumes to boot.  Generally, if I can manage to track down the defective part on a board, I'll just find an identical or similar model that's broken and attempt to swap parts around one works.  Gets around the part sourcing problem, and you don't even have to identify the part fully aside from verifying that it's the same thing on both units.

SavannahLion:


--- Quote from: MonMotha on March 26, 2009, 06:51:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: SavannahLion on March 26, 2009, 06:16:20 pm ---What's better? A lead filled CRT that's manufactured once, repaired two to five times over a span of twenty plus years then salvaged for the lead (apparently, lead salvage is a big business?) or four green LCD screens that are manufactured and trashed over the same course of time?

--- End quote ---

Actually, CRT televisions have gotten to the same point as LCDs.  They're so cheap that it's not worth paying a repairman to work on them.  This is especially true of the models targeted at people who would actually buy a CRT over an LCD (mostly small, cheap ones).  Why pay a repairman $100 to show up plus $50/hr (or whatever) when you can just go buy a new TV for $100 (or less!) and be done with it?

You could argue that the TV repairman is overcharging, but he/she is simply charging what he/she needs to.  See, if he/she were to go into a different industry as a technician, the billable rate would be about the same.  How much do you pay electricians?  Plumbers?  There is a reason TV repairmen are getting harder and harder to find.

What has happened is that production costs have gotten SO cheap that it now costs less to build a new television than anybody is willing to fix it for.  This is mostly due to the disparity in labor rates between the production site (usually mainland China these days, but sometimes Taiwan, Korea, or Singapore) and where the repairman lives (the USA).  This has benefits: new TVs are really, really cheap.  However, it also has downsides: more waste due to everything being "disposable" since it makes no economic sense to repair it.
--- End quote ---

Yeah, I see your point. That illustrates another problem as well. The whole "throw-away" mentality is a pretty dangerous path we're taking. There's just no way we can sustain this kind of consumption and waste.

BobA:

LCDs do not have the staying power of older electronics.   Everyone has seen the TV that their parents have had for 22 years and still looks fairly good.   The lighting for LCD screens is not made to last that long but then the LCD TV costs only a fraction of what a 20 inch CRT TV cost over 20 years ago.  We get 4 or 5 years out of new appliances of any sort but they cost only a fraction of what the older appliances cost.  It is a sad statement of fact that it is a throw away society.  You cannot fix many new appliances (TVs Monitors Etc) due to the lack of replaceable parts and the lack of people with the skills to do the repair.  The TV repair guy who replaced a couple of tubes and tweaked your TV 25 years ago cannot replace SMD and other many pinnned ICs without being many many times more expensive and very much more knowledgeable about the new technologies.   How many TV repair shops or monitor repair shops exist in your city or town?

It is possible to fix desktop PCs due to the replaceable parts inside but try to fix most laptops.   You cannot get the MB for a decent price from the manufacturer because they do not sell to inidividuals and if you go to a service center the cost is most likely to be more than you want to spend on a 3 year old laptop.  It is cheaper to buy a new laptop with 200% or more more capacity for less then the MB replacement and labour would cost you.

There are advantages to this rapid obsolecence.   Many of my MAME or JUKEBOX computers have come from people who have upgraded and are willing to throw away their old computers.

It is not just computers, most newer appliances do not last as long as the older ones.  I had a dishwasher that lasted almost 20 years and a washer dryer set that was even older.  I do not expect my new appliances (new house) to last even one half that time.

It is a sad state of our society but throw away is where it seems to be. :hissy: :hissy:

But back to the topic.   LCDs will soon be the only available option.   They are not as bad as Dream Authentics would have us believe.  Most LCD monitors are very tolerent of out of freq signals.  They will just tell you the signal is out of range and not display them.  This is very different from CRT montors that would try to display out of range signals and do damage to themselves.   It may not be 100 percent arcade true but it is all we will have in the future.


SavannahLion:


--- Quote from: BobA on March 27, 2009, 12:44:08 am ---It is a sad state of our society but throw away is where it seems to be. :hissy: :hissy:

--- End quote ---

IMHO, it's a very deadly way to go. There's no way we can sustain that kind of consumption for any length of time. The raw materials have to come from somewhere and all that crap has to go somewhere. Our "recycling" is too weak at this point to be even considering that kind of society. Improve the recycling programs to where that crap isn't going off to Guiyu China to die. As much as I don't really like it, but I'm wonder if greater standardization would be the best compromise? We have some standardization at the consumer level, but what about down at the component level? Know how laptop monitors are, for the most part, not interchangeable? Well, make them interchangeable. Use standardized communication protocols. Standard components so that all 42" LCD's use essentially the same components. Most products are outsourced anyways, my LCD TV reports itself as a Zenith to my laptop even though it's badged as a different brand.

Even though it's not technically a repair, it's probably a better solution to make components standardized so your average repair guy can just pull a board or part off the shelf from company X and pop it into a TV from company Y.

edit: To clarify that last point, I mean to make replacement boards and parts a true commodity like 7400 or 4000 series ICs.


--- Quote ---But back to the topic.   LCDs will soon be the only available option.   They are not as bad as Dream Authentics would have us believe.  Most LCD monitors are very tolerent of out of freq signals.  They will just tell you the signal is out of range and not display them.  This is very different from CRT montors that would try to display out of range signals and do damage to themselves.   It may not be 100 percent arcade true but it is all we will have in the future.

--- End quote ---

I think my pet peeve about LCD's isn't so much as how they'll be the only option. It's more akin to how there's this movement forcing us towards ZERO legacy support. I don't mind HDMI support, but I would also like a TV that support older inputs as well. Even if this means creating a modular "port" where I would have to buy a separate module with that support. That would be fine with me. A way to keep costs down for those who don't want or need legacy support while giving those of us with old-ass equipment the option to have that legacy support. I'm sure we're (arcade enthusiasts) not the only group of people still holding on to 20, 30 year old equipment. Alas, I can dream.

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