What's my first step? Sinistar - not working

[geocab]

Just like everyone here, I've loved video games ever since I was a kid and one of my favorites back in the 80's was Sinistar.  Well, back in 1993 I had a chance to buy my own used upright of Sinistar and I was thrilled.  It worked fine for about a year and then started to exhibit some problems with the sound going in and out intermittently.  I looked inside and since everything was foreign to me, I just let it be.  Around the year 2000, I went to a local pinball shop where they sold used games and asked if any of them could look at my machine and repair it, but since I didn't buy it from them, they declined.  At that point the sound stopped working and my screen started to act up.  Again, since everything was foreign to me and I didn't know where to go for help, I just stored it in one of the spare bedrooms and let it be.  

Fast forward to today and I've found this wonderful site and even if for a short while, my hopes are renewed that I may one day play my Sinistar cabinet again, and hopefully restore the cabinet too.  

I've been browsing this site the past couple of days trying to gather ideas for a MAME cabinet, but I didn't realize there was a Restoration section here as well.  Very cool.   I don't have a lot of pics just yet as I just unburied the machine an hour ago, still have to dig it out.  I don't have a basement so my spare bedroom is a storage room.  (I shouldn't even think about building my own arcade machine really because of the lack of space, but I've done sillier things in my time.)

Here are a couple of the front of the machine (very dusty):  



After I uncovered the machine I plugged it in and sure enough it still doesn't work.  This is what I get on the screen:


And a close-up:


This is a different pattern than the normal start-up "fuzz" so I don't think it's stuck in Service Mode or anything.

Here are some various pics of the inside:






I have a question about this board, should this be lit?  I thought I remembered this lighting up when the machine worked, but maybe it has to be at a certain point first?  Any idea?


And I'm assuming these batteries are for high score retension?  I hope the leaky battery didn't do any more damage, I didn't think about them being in there when I gave up on the machine in the past.


One last question that has always bothered me too, this cabinet only has one speaker, but I remember that the sitdown cabinet had stereo sound.  Did they release machines with different sound boards for both mono and stereo?  Or would it be possible to convert my machine to a stereo one?  Just wondering.

Anyway, my first priority is to know if I can fix this machine.  What would be my first step to determine why the screen is like that and the game doesn't start?  How do I troubleshoot this?  

Any help, as always, will be appreciated!
George

[Level42]

First: Welcome !

Nice machine ! I've recently worked briefly on a Sinistar.


Now, officially I would have to say that you should try and fix the boards, power supply, connectors, battery section etc. but since you already indicate you're not quite an expert in electronics, may I suggest something else ?

Actually, your timing seems perfect. About a month ago Jrok released this wonderful product:



Here's the product page:
http://www.jrok.com/hardware/wsf

I also started a thread about it on this forum here:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83897.0

The wonderful things about this board:

-all the hardware on the several boards in your cab are included on this tiny board
-this omits all the troubles that Williams hardware can show like poor connectors, bad power supply, bad RAM chips etc.
-it's not emulation. It plays 100% the same as the real hardware
- you can play more games on it (BUT if you would build this in your Sinistar, you can't play the other games because Sinistar is the only vertical game)

Even if you have to forget about the other games, this is the easiest and most rock solid solution to get the cab up and running again.

If you're all for purity, you will have to take the long and hard and dive into the electronics. Yes a lot of the Williams issues are known but you should decide if you want to go that way. Another option would be having someone else repair the boards, but you still can have lots of connector problems.

Anyway that board costs $165.-
You'll need an adapter to be able to connect it to the original wiring harness but Jrok also sells those. That will require a good original wire harness and power supply of course.

Alternatively you can choose to use a new switching power supply and wire the cab up with a Jamma harness. That would eliminate any power supply and wiring/connector issues, but is a bit more work


If you want to keep the original hardware I would say that that screen is an indication of bad Ram. The 4116's are known for failing. They also need 3 different power supply voltages. Most people replace the 4116's with 4164's because they are more reliable (don't get so hot) and only require one supply voltage.
You can either do a very easy mod to the board to be able to use 4164's or you can use an adapter connector. Here's more info:
http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliams4164.html

You should rebuild the PSU with a rebuild kit. This doesn't include the big capacitor though and I think that should be replaced as well as it is the main filter for all power.

I see on your pics that a lot of connectors have already been cut off and soldered directly to the board. Williams games are known for the poor contacts on the connectors (actually, they simple drove to much current through some of the pins of those connectors).

About the battery: get rid of them, get rid of that terrible quality battery holder and install this:
http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliamscpubattery.html



I'm not an expert, and I haven't fixed the Sinistar I've been working on yet but I know there's lots of knowledge around.

[RayB]

As great as Jrok's board is, it would be a REAL SHAME to dump out all those original parts and replace em with this.

[Level42]

Where did I say that he should dump'em out ? I never said that did I ? He can leave them in there and still have Jrok's board in there.

[CheffoJeffo]

I agree with everything that Level42 said.

Check your voltages, rebuild the PS and change the RAM. I would also check for continuity in the harness and check/reflow all of the header pins on the boards.

And then you can decide if you want to dive deeper, send the boards out or drop in jrok's board.

One of the really nice things about jrok's board is that you can install it without doing any harm and then repair the original stuff at your leisure. I am queued up to buy my 3rd board from him specifically for Sinistar, for the day when I come across a suitable cabinet.

That cab looks great and your worst case scenario is being able to get it back up and running reliably (monitor aside) to about $200 (new board, conversion harness and power supply).

 

[geocab]

Hi everyone,

Level, thanks for that link, I will definitely keep that board in mind for later.  However, I'd like to first try and repair my current hardware if possible.   Even though I don't know much more than a novice, I'm not completely unfamiliar with electronics as I used to be so I'm not afraid to dive in like I used to be.  Especially with the resource of this forum which I did not have previously.  

So, of the suggestions you made, the RAM fix and rebuilding the power supply, is there one I should try first over the other, or do both at the same time?  (EDIT:  Cheffo replied as I did so anwered this for me.)  Should I try to clean all of the connectors or just replace them?

Cheffo, thanks for compliment on the cabinet, when I get it all the way unburied (a lot of boxes around it) I'll take more pics.  I know the artwork is scratched up a little bit and some of the moulding needs replaced.

This is cool, I was almost expecting a reply saying, "sorry, but you're SOL with repairing this".  I'm exciting to get started on this.

Talk to ya later!
George

[CheffoJeffo]

This is cool, I was almost expecting a reply saying, "sorry, but you're SOL with repairing this".  I'm exciting to get started on this.

Let me take another crack at it then ...

Sorry, but you're SOL with repairing this.

And because I'm a nice guy, I'll come and haul that piece of junk away free of charge so as not to cause you more pain.

Actually, that might have worked out better for me ! 

 

[Level42]

OK I agree with your decision, I also think it's worth to try and rescue the original electronics. However, thought you might be totally scared of it and so I figured it would be 1000 times better to have a Jrok board in there than sell/scrap the machine

But don't say I didn't warn you _if_ this is going to be a long search.

See if any of the connectors get hot. However, the one that I found to get hot are clearly already directly soldered to the pins in your machine now.

Again, I'm not an expert, but from what I've read, my money is on the RAM.

But the very first step should always be, check the basics. Measure your supply voltages.

[geocab]

If this ends up being a long search - no problem.  I've had the machine for 15 years and I haven't used it at all for the past 9, I'm sure I can wait a bit more. 

Question about the DRAM, where can I get some?  I found one link to 4164 DRAM, but there were different kinds, 4164-20, 4164-10, etc.  What does the 10, 20, etc. mean?   Where is the DRAM located, is it the bank of 24 next to the AA batteries I need to replace? 

[RayB]

Does the JROK board come with a Jamma to Williams adapter ?

[geocab]

As promised, more pics:

The Cabinet






Underneath the CP



Various Monitor Pics





Another Transformer Pic



The Power Supply



The 4116 DRAM chips





Well, looking at the 4116's, it looks like a lot of them have black on their pins from excessive heat.  I guess my next step is to order the new 4164's to put in their place.  Does the ns rating matter?  Obvioulsy the higher the number, the faster they read, but what is the rating that I want or exceed?  Once I know if that matters I can either order some of these or check a local surplus store for them.  Then I need to make a connector adapter.  Not sure how to do that just yet.  I read the link and I understand what the diagrams are telling me about what pin does what and goes where, etc., but I have to figure out how to put that in practice.    I think I need to get some sleep so I can think again.   Why do I always buy things toward the end of the week or start a project where I need to go to the store that's closed on the weekends or can't ship 'til Monday?  

I checked as many connectors as I could see on the boards and all of them pass for continuity.  I'm not sure how to read the voltage at the RAM locations to make sure I have the proper V, any advice?  Do I need to take the CB off the door and read from the back side?  

The LED I highlighted in my first group of pics lit up with a code of 031.  

I'm not sure where to order parts to rebuild the PS, any good suggestions?

Thanks for your help so far everyone!
George

[Level42]

OK, we've got a great Wiki here:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Main_Page

And here's the direct link to the vedors page:

http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Vendors

Check under parts.

Anyway here are some sources for 4164's:

http://www.arcadechips.com/

http://www.arcadecomponents.com

http://www.coinopchips.com/shop/

I think all thee are members of this forum.

I don't really think the speed thing is an issue, but to be on the safe side, the faster the better. You can't buy them 'too fast'. It's an indication of what the RAM _can_ handle, not what it _has_ to be run on.

If you find any surplus local by all means get it, the more of these available the better

I think there were one or two guys here actually selling a ready made connector, and Bob Roberts does too IIRC.

Bob Roberts is also a great source for parts, but he tends to be a bit more expensive with the IC's. You can buy a power supply rebuild kit at him, plus the battery replacement "kit" for the current battery holder. Get that one out first by the way, simply remove the batteries and desolder the holder.

http://www.therealbobroberts.net/

[geocab]

OK, we've got a great Wiki here:

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm just really eager to get what I need for this game and I rushed to post before thinking about it.  I have found a lot of great info there too.  

Also, thank you for all of those links.

[SirPeale]

I'm not sure if you've read this yet or not, but the 4164 RAM is not 100% compatible with the Sinistar (or any other Williams) board.  You'll either need to modify the board, or use an adapter.

I make the adapters if you're interested.

Get those batteries out of there NOW.  Get some vinegar on a cloth and wipe down the area.  GENTLY.

The monitor in your machine is a Wells Gardner K4900 series.

[THE POKER BRAT]

as far as i can see is that you need to get rid of those 3 batteries fast!!! before the other ones leak and do futher damage,..clean out the battery compartment
and the board, are those batteries regular batteries like duracell?
....then get new ones,..unplug the main pcb, and check the connectons for rust or dirt etc,..check the chips as well for rust,..
replace batteries, replug the pcb/s,  and give it a go,...it might just turn on again,.
i dont know,..just my guess,..its the obvious

[Level42]

Am I starting to get Alzheimer's at 41 or did I already wrote that he should get rid of the batteries ?   

And no he should NOT put new baterties in there for these reasons:
1) the battery holder that Williams used is a piece of ---Cleveland steamer---. Even when it's brand new. The construction simply sucks.
2) After what happened to the batteries, the holder is definitely written off. No way that is going to give good contact anymore
3) If you put batteries again in there, the same thing may happen in a couple of years.
The best solution is the one I suggested in my initial response.

Also, the batteries are not going to make this game work or not. They're only there for backing up settings etc.

Sorry but if people post questions/ask for advice here and then they don't READ it then that's it for me.

Like this:

Does the JROK board come with a Jamma to Williams adapter ?

I mean I WROTE that in my very first reply and also you obviously didn't take the effort to actually read Jrok's page about this board.....

Another thing from my first reply:

If you want to keep the original hardware I would say that that screen is an indication of bad Ram. The 4116's are known for failing. They also need 3 different power supply voltages. Most people replace the 4116's with 4164's because they are more reliable (don't get so hot) and only require one supply voltage.
You can either do a very easy mod to the board to be able to use 4164's or you can use an adapter connector. Here's more info:
http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/techwilliams4164.html

I think that says pretty clear that he can't swap out the 4116's for 4164's......

[CheffoJeffo]

It seems that Level42 is both older AND grumpier than I am ! 

[SirPeale]

Oh, one point of interest: you can't just put new 4164 RAM straight in.  You either need to modify the board, or use an adapter.

Also, don't worry about the batteries.  They won't make the game work.  You do need to get the ones that are in there OUT though.

[Level42]

I've got the right to my grumpy moments like everybody else. 

[RayB]

I am getting off your lawn... just don't shoot.

[Level42]

See.......you didn't even read the sign:




You lazy son......

 


 

Sorry guys, I had a bad weekend. Let's get back on topic and get that piece of beauty working 

[geocab]

Wow, I didn't get an e-mail notification of all these replies, I missed a fun conversation.

For the record, it wasn't me asking about Jrok's board, I figured I'd worry about the details of it when all else fails.    Just wanted to say that so I don't get on Level's bad side.  Although I am sorry about the "gift" from my dog on your lawn, I forgot to bring bags with me.  Whoops!

On topic, I have a replacement battery conversion kit, PS replacement parts, and the 4164's on the way.  Hopefully I'll see them next week sometime, although I don't know when I'll get a chance to solder in the new parts. 

[Spyridon]

Does the JROK board come with a Jamma to Williams adapter ?

Doesn't come included with the board, but JROK sells these as well.

[Level42]

 

[Mauzy]

IDK why, but that picture freaks me the hell out to no end...

[RetroACTIVE]

These boards are very fixable.  Take your time and do each repair/upgrade at a time.  The 4164 upgrade is an easy fix that can be done rather quick, but make the power supply voltages your next priority. 

...awesome game by the way, it's in great shape!

[geocab]

I turned the game on without the RAM chips installed which produced a sold yellow screen and I noticed for the first time that my monitor has Qbert burned into it slightly.     Crap.  Guess I'll have to make due with that.  Not sure I'll notice when playing Sinistar though since I never noticed it before.

[geocab]

Hey guys, here's an update.  Unfortunately I don't have time right now to post photos.  The new RAM chips are installed and all of the capacitors on the power supply have been replaced and my Sinistar turns on and runs.  The sound goes in and out though.  How do I troubleshoot this?

[CheffoJeffo]

Hey guys, here's an update.  Unfortunately I don't have time right now to post photos.  The new RAM chips are installed and all of the capacitors on the power supply have been replaced and my Sinistar turns on and runs.  The sound goes in and out though.  How do I troubleshoot this?

First ---    for getting her running!

Next --- I'll let someone like RetroACTIVE or Peale chime in about sound troubleshooting -- I chased sound issues on my Joust for years without nailing it down.

I would presume that Sinistar has similar test modes to other Williams games of the era -- does anything come up strange when you run the sound portion of the test ?

[SirPeale]

Sound comes and goes...hm...check the connections on the sound pot, and check it's resistance levels as well.  It might be bad, the connections might be crap.

[geocab]

OK, quick questions:  would it be in my best interest to replace the caps on the sound boards like I did with the power supply?  Also, I didn't replace the 18,000 mfd capacitor because I couldn't find one, is this a possible reason for the intermittent sound?  (I think I just found one, probably going to order it.)
I'm definitely going to check the pot first, but I wanted to ask a couple of questions about some more possibilites.

Here's a better description of the sound issue:  After repairing the PS, the game started up with no sound.   One instance when the sound came up, I was able to her "I hunger!" when inserting credits, however, every other time the sound worked, the speech has not.  So, I can stand and play the game, every now and then the sound comes on and I can hear the shooting and explosions, but when the Sinistar comes to life, all sound goes out again. 

SirPeale, I'm assuming you mean the sound pot on the daughter board?  Not the pot that is separate and mounted by the coin door access for the speaker volume?  Just want to be sure which to check and replace. 

Also, when the daughter board is disconnected, and the separate pot is turned all the way up, the sound of the game is barely audible, but constant (sans the speech of course).   Would this indicate that the problem is probably something on the daughter board, or could the problem still be on either sound board?

Oh, and totally unrelated to the sound issue, as I mentioned, my monitor has some Q-bert burned into it, is replacing the monitor the only way to correct this? 

Thanks for the help, guys, it's nice to be almost up and running.

[SirPeale]

I'm not 100% familiar with Sinistar, but on the other Williams classics I've worked on there's been a pot that's harnessed to the sound board.  That's the one I was talking about.

[geocab]

Here's both the pot on the daughterboard, and the harnessed one. 


     

[SirPeale]

The second one is definitely the main sound pot, and the one I was referring to.  Check that out, as well as the connection.

The other appears to be the speech board, but I could be wrong.  I've never worked on a Sinistar before.

[geocab]

Yep, that's the speech board, I wonder if that pot is strictly for speech though.

Will definitely thoroughly check out the harnessed one and will post my findings when I do. 

[RetroACTIVE]

Yep, that's the speech board, I wonder if that pot is strictly for speech though.

Will definitely thoroughly check out the harnessed one and will post my findings when I do. 

Yes the small pcb mounted pot is only for speach... the other cab mounted one as Peale indicated is the main... If just speach is cutting out I'd suspect the ribbon connector.   If all sounds are cutting out    or are intermittent then I would check/clean the sound-ROM board interconnection.   Also go into diagnostics and test the sounds... It should let you walk through them.  If certain sounds are consistently not working and all the connections have cleaned and verified it could end up being a faulty PIA on the sound board.

Certainly check the main volume pot as was suggested.

You should recap the sound board as well.  Bob Roberts sells kits for Williams sound boards.