Some cool indy PC games for your cabinet

[pmc]

I've had dozens of indy/freeware PC arcade games kicking around on my hard drives for the last year or two -- waiting for me to the take the time to see if each is fun to play and cabinet friendly. One of my new year's resolutions is to go through them all, try them, and set them up in MaLa complete with screenshots. I thought I'd post some of them here in case someone else wants to try 'em out. I'll add to this list as I try them...

I guess I'll post the truly cabinet friendly ones to smariner's related thread.


RumbleBox is an interesting fighting game that reminds me of Ballz on the Sega Genesis. It seems completely cabinet friendly and is worth checking out.

Pen Pen Olympics (Black Cat) is a great skiing game that's meant to look like a 16-bit precursor to the Dreamcast's Pen Pen Trilcelon. Controls are perfect for a cabinet. I can ski OK with a joystick, but not so good with a keyboard.

Cho Ren Sha is a great oldy style vertical shooter. Fantastic game and seems completely cabinet friendly.

Retroids (Dan's Remakes) runs good on the cabinet. It's a simple asteroids remake and has OpenGL space clouds, power-ups, and some other features. If you like Asteroids, it's worth a look. I have a couple of other Asteroids clones I'll post about too.

Rip Off (Tardis Remakes) is a remake of the arcade game of the same name. Plays great on my cabinet, but you need "Y", "N" and enter keys mapped to buttons to be able to quit the game.

Prototype II is a fantastic rType type game (horizontal shooter). It runs great on the cabinet, but it starts with a Windows configuration screen that lets you set resolution, enable shaders, etc. I haven't figured out how to launch from the command-line and bypass the start-up window.

Fraxy is a really nice Japanese arena shooter. It uses both the mouse/trackball for aiming and firing, and a regular joystick for directional. Fire with the mouse button. I'm not sure if you can get this working with cabinet controls, but it's worth trying if you have a trackball installed.

more to come...

-pmc

[pmc]

A couple more I've been playing recently...

Winged Gear is a very nice arena shooter with graphics that remind me of Xevious and gameplay like Smash TV. This one plays perfect on the cabinet with no key mapping issues.

Jack'O'Roids is a Halloween Asteroids clone. Plays pretty good on the cabinet once set up (you need "enter" and "tab" keys, and "Y" to exit, but the rest are remappable). I like this one alot.

The same guy made an excellent color remake of Omega Race called, um Omega Race. Plays good on the cabinet, but you need "enter" and "Y" (to confirm exit) mapped to your CP.

Parsec47 is a Kenta Cho vertical shooter that plays great on a cabinet. All his shooters are great. I suggest you get them all (rRootage, Gunroar, Torus Trooper, and Mu-Cade in particular).

Millenipede is based on Centipede but has lots more. Great game. I've been playing with mouse and keyboard so far but haven't yet tried a trackball arrangement yet.

Ice-Teroids is an Asteroids clone but with sharp shards of ice instead of rocks. The cool thing about this one is that you can play with up to 3 people simultaneously. It requires F-keys so it's not so cab friendly. But once the keys are remapped (each game), it plays great with arcade controls.

-pmc

[gonzo90017]

Great list. If possible can you also post the system requirements? (if it's not too much trouble) 

To close the games without confirmations have you tried Closemul?

[pmc]

Streets of Rage Remake is a fantastic new episode to the SOR family -- takes me back to my Sega Genesis days. I like it as much as Beats of Rage. Runs perfect on my cabinet. I love a good beat-em-up with arcade controls.

Final Force is a Japanese vertical shooter. It's fast and hard to see all the stuff flying around on the screen. It runs good with cabinet controls but requires the use of the "enter" key. The installer/unpacker is difficult to interpret (Japanese) but I managed. Supports two players and defaiult MAME keys. I can't figure out where I found this one, but I'll look for the link.

Hunter's Moon is a remake of a Commodore 64 game. It plays well on a cabinet, but I think it's better with arrow keys rather than a joystick. You need an "enter" button but otherwise can remap the control keys. In MaLa, I had to launch it "normal" or the splash screen and initial menu screen won't show up.

AsteroidsGL is my favorite Asteroids emu, mostly because it generates flyback transformer noise to add to the experience. It maintains the hiscore list too. It was coded back in 2005 and hasn't been updated. Runs perfectly on my cabinet.

[pmc]

Great list. If possible can you also post the system requirements? (if it's not too much trouble) 

I can try. I'll have to go back when I get some time and check. I can tell you that I'm running a 2.4ghz AMD processor with a built-in nVidia GF3 card; Windows 2000, and DirectX 8.something. I think I need to add avideo card to support some of these games, and I definitely need to upgrade DirectX. Some of the newer Japanese vertical shooters struggle to run or get wonky on this machine so the upgrades would probably help. I originally built it for MAME so I wasn't concerned (at the time) about video power.

To close the games without confirmations have you tried Closemul?

I'll definitely check that out. Might make the difference for alot of these games. I really wish an ESC (or two if confirmation is necessary) would send any and all games back to the OS. Thanks for the link.

I have like 100 more games to go through... this is going to take forever... 

-pmc

[gonzo90017]

I have like 100 more games to go through... this is going to take forever...

Cool. I can't wait!

[smariner]

Very cool list... I went ahead and added all the above to my list located at:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=88060.0

Let me know if I missed anything...

Hope this helps,
Chad D. Bryant

[pmc]

A few more....

Warning Forever is a very cool Japanese shooter. All bosses. Wireframe-like graphics. Uses a regular joystick and 3 buttons (z, x, and c). You can remap the keys, but I couldn't remap to keys like shift, control, and alt. So mapping to my six default player 1 MAME keys is difficult.

Quantasm is a neon vector-like arena shooter where you sit in a turret and spin around shooting at enemies that attack from all sides. It's meant to use a mouse and I could not get it to work with a standard joystick and buttons. I took this off the cabinet but might try to get it to work with a spinner if I can remap the mouse button to a microswitch button. I think it'll work with a gaming joystick/pad but I didn't try.

Gyrobot is a cute 3d puzzle game where you are a robot and have to collect energy crystals. Kindof a modern Marble Madness. Very nice music. Plays perfect on my cabinet (standard joystick and one button -- the space bar). Set for "fullscreen" in the .ini file or it will play in a maximized window instead.

Burn the Trash is a fantastic shooter that shows how games can be a real art form. This guy is talented. Same guy who wrote Clean Asia. Very sexy game. Great music; graphics; simple concept; addictive gameplay. Needs a standard joystick plus x, z, c, and enter keys (all of which are hard-coded). I had a problem with the "c" key which I don't have by default. You need that key to change from ship A to ship B. I live with ship A alone and love the game anyway. Works great otherwise.

Armagetron is a 3D Tron light-bike game. Tons of features like netplay and chat. It works fine on my cabinet (joystick plus a button or two) but all I do is play against CPU opponents so I don't push the control requirements much.

[pmc]

To close the games without confirmations have you tried Closemul?

I can't get a good download of this. The zip is always corrupt. Can someone email me a good archive? PM me I guess.

I really need something that can map keys for each individual .exe or .bat. So many of these games just need a key or two adjusted to be able to work happily on a cabinet. I still plan to spend quality time with autohotkey, but haven't had the time.

-pmc

[pmc]

I checked out a few more last night....

Vacant Ark is another Japanese horizontal shooter. This time you play a mermaid. I thought gameplay was a bit slow. All it needs is the arrow keys, Z, X, and shift. ESC exits right back to your front-end. Worked perfectly on my cabinet.

Veck Special Edition is an arena shooter with neon graphics. Looks like little like Geometry wars. I play it with dual joysticks. You need an ENTER key mapped to be able to exit. ESC will pause. It has a configuration program where you can set screen resolution and what-not. Keys can be reconfigured and it works with a dual analog controller too. If you can map ENTER easily, this one is cabinet friendly and good to play on a cabinet.

Val and Rick is a Xevious-like vertical shooter. Very nice. Different than Kenta Cho's other stuff. Only needs the directionals and Z and X. No problems. Cabinet friendly.

Typhoon 2001 is a Tempest like game. Very polished. Works with a joystick but would be better with a spinner. I didn't try it with a spinner. Keys are reconfigurable. Supports keyboard, mouse, or spinner.

Thrust Extreme is a Gravitron like game (actually, it's a remake of Thrust. Also very polished. Written in BlitzBasic. Can reconfigure keys (or edit the .ini directly). You need ENTER to play. You also need a keyboard to enter high scores. Also supports a joypad.

Robotix is a retro 2D platform game I thought would be cool to play on a cabinet. It didn't really work out. You need a mouse, ENTER key, DEL key, and the F-keys. Best to leave this one on a PC I think.

-pmc

[pmc]

And a few more...

Die Slave by Sexy Death Entertainment is another Japanese horizontal shooter. Very nice, 3D graphics; Arrow-keys, Z, and X are used. Seems totally cabinet friendly.

Gravitron is a neon vector Thrust/Oids/gravitar like game. Very cool. A configurator/launcher loads first and I can't figure out how to get past it without a mouse click. Might need to script it. You can configure the keys in the game (thrust, shield, left, right, and fire). ESC will pause, but another ESC will exit. Not really cabinet friendly because of the launcher, but you might be able to get it working. Gravitron2 costs $5 but there's a free demo. I haven't tried it yet.

Generic Arena Shooter is a 3D arena shooter. Works with dual analog sticks and pads (made for a DualShock or Xbox controller). I play it with a joystick and mouse (the stick moves your ship around, and the mouse is for aiming and firing). You might be able to play it with a stick and trackball. ESC exits properly.

Garden of Coloured Lights is a beautiful vertical shooter. It's gorgeous. Enemies fire in sync with the music. It uses the arrow keys, Z, X, C, and Left Shift... all of which are redefinable in-game. So I moved "C" (fire-3) to a default MAME key. You can tune the config of the program via the .ini file. This one stays on my cab.

Iwanaga is a strange Japanese shooter. It kinda looks like an old Sega Genesis platformer. Your player can swing at enemies and jump, but if you hold down the fire key, it converts to cross-hairs which the joystick controls. There's a write-up that explains the controls here. Uses X and Z and ESC exits. Works fine on my cabinet.

Lethal Judgment 2 - Orbital Apocalypse is a horizontal shooter. 3D graphics and a slick look. Not my favorite but I didn't play it much. There are sequels to this game I haven't checked out yet. SPACE, ESC, and directionals are all you need so it plays nice on a cabinet. But it has an initial configurator/launcher app that I could not get past without a mouse click. I might try to script around the launcher app but probably won't bother.

-pmc

[pmc]

A couple more. I tested about 20 more and will post when I get a chance.

War T-W-A-T is a retro-styled abstract arena shooter. Very cool, really hard to play. Lots of action going on at once and hard to see your "player". Robotron-like frantic-ness. Very nicely done game. Uses the directionals as well as the Z key. Looks to be 100% cabinet friendly.

Protoype is an r-type like game. 100% cabinet happy. Can also be used with a joypad. Keys can be re-configured in-game. This one is permanent on my cabinet.

mu-cade is a Kenta Cho wire-frame arena shooter. You are a snake-like player and you push and shoot enemies but stay in the ring. Uses the directionals plus the Z key. Also supports a joypad or a second stick. You can set the resolution via command-line option.

Grid Wars 2 has been posted about here alot. This is a Geometry Wars clone. Fully configurable in game and supports nearly all control types and schemes. You press F3 to change the grid types so that's not cabinet friendly, but you don't need that feature to play. Permanent on my cabinet where I play it with dual sticks (like Smash Hit TV).

HyperWars - The Mega Firestorm is a really cool vertical shooter that is styled like the original B&W Gameboy. Very well done. Reconfigurable keys that includes directionals and three buttons. This one is a keeper. Has some adult language (surprised my daughter).

Torque is an abstract arena shooter with geometric graphics. Uses directionals and "Z" for fire. You can remap thefire button. SPACE is used for Pause and F4 is used for fullscreen. I'm using AutoHotKey to set to fullscreen right after launch and then map SPACE to P for pause. In the end, not so cabinet friendly.

-pmc

[pmc]

Protoganda is a wide-screen vertical shooter with 3Dish bosses and lots of bullet dodging. Very cool. Needs F1 button for options including screen resolution. Uses ENTER to start. Z button is fire. You need to enter your name with a keyboard the first time, but afterwards you don't need a keyboard. You cannot remap keys. I'm using AutoHotKey to remap F1 to fire and ENTER to P1-Start.

Return to Sector 9 has many arcade games wrapped into one game. You progress through different games like you are progressing through levels. Some are space-arena shooters, others are like Missle Command. It's all 3D graphics. Some of the games use the mouse. I don't think this is suitable for a cabinet.

ROM Check Fail is a cool game in that it simulates an arcade ROM failure and mixes Space Invaders, PacMan, Arkanoid, and other classics into a single game. Neat idea. It doesn't play full screen but other wise seemed OK the cabinet. If I can get it to go full screen, it'll probably stay on there.

G-Force is a 2D Tempest game. Very nice graphics. I couldn't get it to do full screen. Uses 3D graphics (used my video card). Uses Z or Y for fire, directions, and X for superzapper. Without fullscreen, I won't want to play it on my cabinet. Launch time was really long too (on a 2.4Ghz AMD Athalon system).

Gunroar is another Kenta Cho game. Vertical shooter, nautical theme (shoot the boats). One of the better Kenta Cho games. Totally cab friendly. The keys are as usual with his games and offer multiple options but no reconfiguration: Move: arrows, number pad, WASD, or IJKL; Fire: Z, LCtrl, RCtrl, or . (period); Lance attack: X, LAlt, R-Alt, LShift, RShift, /, or Return.

Shooter's Solitude is a very nice japanese vertical shooter. Lots of bullet and laser dodging and a novel power-up system. Uses directionals, Z (fire), X (powerup), S (bombs), and D (change weapons). S and D were a problem for me and had to be remapped. Fortunately, there's a nice Get KeyCode application which you can use to figure out alternate keys. Then you can edit the .ini file to use the alternate key. In the end, works great on a cabinet.

-pmc

[Space Fractal]

Grid Wars 2 has been posted about here alot. This is a Geometry Wars clone. Fully configurable in game and supports nearly all control types and schemes. You press F3 to change the grid types so that's not cabinet friendly, but you don't need that feature to play. Permanent on my cabinet where I play it with dual sticks (like Smash Hit TV).

-pmc

I have created a unofficial patch for it, which can been found in the official list of cabinet games. I can look about the F3 problem, if I can get this re mappable.... But it really not important here. The patch was most focus to get analog dual joystick to work.

[jukingeo]

Thanx for sharing PMC,

I found a few cool games already!  The Dan's Remakes site has downloads for Linux as well as Windows and the Mac.

[pmc]

I have created a unofficial patch for it, which can been found in the official list of cabinet games. I can look about the F3 problem, if I can get this re mappable.... But it really not important here. The patch was most focus to get analog dual joystick to work.

I don't use that patch because I play with dual digital sticks and that works fine without the patch. Hmmm... I thought that dual-analog support was built-in already?

Anyway, the next time you are in there mucking with the BlitzMax code, it might be a good idea to provide an additional keystroke to change grids: Left Ctrl, Left Alt, Space, Left Shift, Z, or X -- but don't replace the ones that are best for FIRE or BOMB. That way, you can change grids during gameplay (like there's time for that!  ).

-pmc

[pmc]

Thanx for sharing PMC,

I found a few cool games already!  The Dan's Remakes site has downloads for Linux as well as Windows and the Mac.

You are welcome. There's a lot of great programmers out there doing retro remake work in their spare time. They also code a lot of new retro and arcade styled games. Check out RetroRemakes when you get a chance. The site was recently hacked and was devastated which is a huge loss because the content included downloads of games that can't be found elsewhere.

I still have 100-200 more in my backlog to work through and will continue to post my progress here (it helps drive me).

-pmc

[Space Fractal]

I have created a unofficial patch for it, which can been found in the official list of cabinet games. I can look about the F3 problem, if I can get this re mappable.... But it really not important here. The patch was most focus to get analog dual joystick to work.

I don't use that patch because I play with dual digital sticks and that works fine without the patch. Hmmm... I thought that dual-analog support was built-in already?

Anyway, the next time you are in there mucking with the BlitzMax code, it might be a good idea to provide an additional keystroke to change grids: Left Ctrl, Left Alt, Space, Left Shift, Z, or X -- but don't replace the ones that are best for FIRE or BOMB. That way, you can change grids during gameplay (like there's time for that!  ).

-pmc

Gridwars was originally require to use example a PS2 controller on the same port to support the analog dual controller support, but it did not work with UltraStik 360 from Ultimarc (which each stick use thier own joystick "port" number). I have also remapped some keys around to been even more cab freindly and have a more arcade fell. I also added your request, but changed it a bit, because I think most users have a least a 2 player cabs and hence remapped it to PL2 Start (MAME set that default to key 2), because it really not a action button or such. It was just a fast update, but next time I see I can do it better.

___

I have also updated the http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Indie_Games with your nice gamelist and really fit it here.  I think shareware games should been listed as long its a indy game, which some is still is even with shareware products.  I have changed the text a bit and a bit more neutral. Hope its ok.

I also still checkout the officiel gamelist and test if they can been used in a cabinit and evetuelly write out problems if any, which I like you do it here. A great thread which I hope the officiel gamelist can been listed to this  thread as well.

[Bloodwyn]

I have found a few new Indy games that work great on my cabinet. Just wanted to share.

Legend of Princess - Platform Game
http://www.konjak.org/




Spelunky - Platform Game
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=4017.0



Jasper's Journey - Platform Game
http://www.lexaloffle.com/jasper.php



Engage to Jabberwock - Arena explore / shooter
http://zenjohost.com/~hunty/platine/jabberwock.zip



Ya.. I do like platformers.

Bloodwyn

[pmc]

I have also updated the http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Indie_Games with your nice gamelist and really fit it here.  I think shareware games should been listed as long its a indy game, which some is still is even with shareware products.  I have changed the text a bit and a bit more neutral. Hope its ok.

I also still checkout the officiel gamelist and test if they can been used in a cabinit and evetuelly write out problems if any, which I like you do it here. A great thread which I hope the officiel gamelist can been listed to this  thread as well.

Man, you been busy! I was planning on taking a couple of hours to transfer to the wiki at some point. Thanks for the hard work!

-pmc

[pmc]

Ya.. I do like platformers.

Works for me. I've been posting mostly shooters and need a break.

Thank you for sharing. I'll be checking these out.

-pmc

[jukingeo]

You are welcome. There's a lot of great programmers out there doing retro remake work in their spare time. They also code a lot of new retro and arcade styled games. Check out RetroRemakes when you get a chance. The site was recently hacked and was devastated which is a huge loss because the content included downloads of games that can't be found elsewhere.

I guess you kind of figured out I am into the older games.   I DO have a Mame rig in both Windows and Linux, but SDLMame that runs in Linux is pretty slow.  You need a really high end machine to run Mame in Linux.    Since I mostly set up Mame machines on older cabinets, I pretty much abandoned Mame in Linux (except for my test machine).  I mostly use machines set up with Windows 98SE for Mame.

However, when I saw this post and the Dan's Remakes site offered Linux versions of the programs, naturally I hopped on it.   So far the games that I seen were very well done.  I DO miss the 'please insert coin' prompt though.

At any rate I did check out that RetroRemakes site.  Wow!  They must have been hit with something really bad.  The site is a ghost-town now.  There are only a few things posted.  Well, I will keep an eye on it and see how the 'rebuild' progresses.

Oh!  I am not sure what box you have (hopefully Linux), but I can't get Typhoon 2001 to run under Linux.   I 'think' I have everything I need to run it.   It looks like a really cool 'updated' version of Tempest.

Thanx for the info.

Geo

[Space Fractal]

I just updated the wiki with the 4 new games Bloodwyn shared, but there is problems with Engage to Jabberwock which I moved it under games with issues, the rest is cabinet freindly.

Please do a short description of these game which I have tried in the wiki this time after a quick test.

[pmc]

Oh!  I am not sure what box you have (hopefully Linux), but I can't get Typhoon 2001 to run under Linux.   I 'think' I have everything I need to run it.   It looks like a really cool 'updated' version of Tempest.

I never managed to get my ATI card to work right with Linux (driver issues) so the hardware accelerated OpenGL stuff has to run under Windows. I got sick of trying to make it work. Oh well.

Make sure you can run OpenGL on your video card or you won't be able to play Typhoon 2001. Run glxinfo to make sure that 3D is working, and glxgears to actually test your arrangement. If Tuxracer runs at full speed, you are probably OK.

Personally, I don't play Typhoon too much because I still don't have a spinner installed and don't like any other controls for a game like that.

-pmc

[jukingeo]

I never managed to get my ATI card to work right with Linux (driver issues) so the hardware accelerated OpenGL stuff has to run under Windows. I got sick of trying to make it work. Oh well.

I have an ATI card as well.  The 'stock' ATI drivers will never work.  The Linux variant does work though.  To what level it does remains to be seen.

Make sure you can run OpenGL on your video card or you won't be able to play Typhoon 2001. Run glxinfo to make sure that 3D is working, and glxgears to actually test your arrangement. If Tuxracer runs at full speed, you are probably OK.

I am not sure if it uses OpenGL.  I am not sure, but I have run 3D games before.  I will try Tuxracer out and will see what happens.

Personally, I don't play Typhoon too much because I still don't have a spinner installed and don't like any other controls for a game like that.

-pmc

A tip to those that don't have a spinner.  Use a trackball, it is almost as good.   I don't have a spinner either and just about all my spinner games I use a trackball with.    I would eventually like a spinner, but for now I am just covering as many games as possible using as few controls as possible.  I use joysticks and the trackball.   A trackball is proportional, just like a spinner, so you can control the speed of it.  This is the reason why most joysticks suck at spinner/trackball games.   Also, you can't 'spin' a joystick, but you CAN spin a trackball.

Thanx,

Geo

[pmc]

I haven't had much progress sorting my collection this year, but recently bumped into this one and thought I'd post it because we are having a ball playing it.

Tasty Static is based on a 1993 PC games called Skyroads. Very simply gameplay. Left, Right, and Jump. Written in OpenGL. In-game options to tune resolution and graphics detail. Full-screen by default.

Very cabinet friendly. ESC = escape to menu and quit game, SPACE = jump (mapped to my Button 3) and a 4-way joystick for LEFT and RIGHT. No other keys/controls and you can navigate the menus with those alone (no need for ENTER key). Might be fun to map LEFT and RIGHT to buttons -- like Space Invaders -- rather than use a joystick.

Fun, simple, challenging, good for kids.

-pmc

[pmc]

Here's a good one, but it's not cabinet friendly. You'll need a mouse to navigate the menus and configure it. But once it's started, you can use a standard j/s and buttons to play.

Absolute Blue is a modern r-type game. Uses DirectX / graphics card and looks really nice. Good music. Also has support for mouse, joystick (with force feedback).

Reconfigurable keys for L, R, U, D, Fire, and AutoFire. Those are all the controls you need to play.

Check out the website for some video trailers to see if you like it.

-pmc

[pmc]

Bumped into another one on the cabinet and set it up today.

Nomltest FS is a vertical shooter with a retro Space Invaders theme. Rapid pace. Sortof of a Kenta Cho like feel but the music is pretty retro. Good write-up and strategy guide here. Japanese developer and I think it's pretty old too. Like may 2005 but runs right on Win2K and XP.

There's an included full-screen executable so you don't have to worry configuring the screen rez. Controls are the directional arrow keys (and therefore J/S 1) and buttons are "x" and "z" which are default mappings on my cab for Button 5 and Button 6. ESC kills the game. P for PAUSE. No need for RETURN or anything weird so it's cabinet friendly. There's a key.conf file so presumably you can remap keys if you want to.

[DataWest]

I've enjoyed this thread a lot, found anything of note recently pmc?

[pmc]

Sort of. I have a zillion games in my queue.... many flat out uninstalled let alone untried! My MAME PC died months back and I rebuilt and there's very few PC games on there now and I need to rebuild all the autohotkey stuff. I need to get back into the swing of it. I'll post here when I get the juices flowing again.

The good news is that there's more great indy games than time to play them. That's better than the other way around.

Good thing I turned on notification. I haven't posted here in a year and would have missed your post. Regardless, I'm glad you found the thread useful.

[DataWest]

Thanks for the reply. Eagerly awaiting your return to this thread!

[(+_+)]

I've enjoyed this thread also. There are so many cool indie games with more and more being released every few days.

Check out Pixel Prospector. There are all types of different Genres type games to choose from. I recently added a boat load of Arena Shooter type games alone. You can also check out Steam Indie games. They have quite a few good ones too. I'll try to get a list for you DW. Like PMC, many of the games I've collected have not been played yet, but the videos look good and many good words have been said about a bunch of them too.