Push/ Pull Spinners

[shmokes]

I don't intend to be a phony in order to make sales. 

You seriously have no idea what I'm talking about.     

[Tim N.]

I don't intend to be a phony in order to make sales. 

You seriously have no idea what I'm talking about.     

I think he may be referring to "whynotpizza" being the same as "ApacheControls"....

[shmokes]

Which would make no sense since I obviously never suggested he do such a thing.   

[Bender]

Yet it is a statement you see on a pretty regular basis, even from many of your happy customers who wouldn't hesitate to do business with you a thousand times over.  Take it on faith if you must, but it's good advice.  There's a condescending, dismissive, tactless quality to the way you converse.  I have seen your store.  You have a bunch of REALLY amazing-looking products that you invented.  You are obviously incredibly talented.  But you can't be good at everything.  You need a public face.  But, whatever . . . I'm over it.   

I always wonder why whenever anyone posts a comment about Randy's obnoxious manner of corresponding with people on these boards, they feel compelled to qualify their criticism with gushing statements about how awesome GGG is. Guys, there are alternatives to everything. Between Ultimarc, Apache, and good old-fashioned DIY homebrew ingenuity, you can have everything you ever wanted in your cab without patronizing a business whose owner deals with customers in a way you may not like. I personally do not like how Randy talks to people on these boards. So, I don't buy his stuff. Plain and simple. And I lack nothing - not controls, not lighting, not interfaces, NOTHING. And although it matters not to me, if high-res spinners is your thing, Ultimarc's got you covered there too.

Eric.

 

I don't feel the need to "gush" I have and use regularly many of Randy's products and find his costomer service (offline) very good
my only point is similar to that of shmokes, that he can do them a diservice somtimes by being combative

I have no problem with Randy commenting or explaining in detail his products, I just wish he would leave it at that

+1

I don't always agree with Randy's comments, but I do in this thread.

The info. he has provided is measured, factual, and is solely intended to aid Visitor Q's purchase decision, nothing more.

Geez, a spinner thread would be pretty dull without a contribution from the vendors, wouldn't it ?   

I appreciate their contribution to the forum.

Apache Controls have "said their piece" in this thread, so why bag Randy when he does the same ?

Again I'd have no problem if Randy "did the same" the problem is he doesn't. He post statements that are combative and frankly sometimes insulting... and he post like a billion times and like to into arguments instead of saying his piece and letting it go

if you notice Andy and David post once or twice to answer questions or correct some misinformation then there done (this thread is just one perfect example) and now instead of talking about spinners were talking about Randy,... unfortunate

Randy 8 posts
David 2 posts

ok I'm over it now too!

[RandyT]

if you notice Andy and David post once or twice to answer questions or correct some misinformation then there done

Bender,  when I say the sky is blue, it's because I have extensively tested the color and have seen a consensus stating that the sky is indeed "blue".  When others, who may have a vested interest in making others believe that it is green, state that it is green and are demonstrably causing others to believe that it is green, then what you are saying is that it is perfectly ok, even preferable that I walk away shaking my head and allow this propagation of misinformation.

I'm sorry, but this is not only bad for the community, but it would be grossly irresponsible for me to ignore it.  It may be better for my business to put on a big gloopy virtual smile and say "gee, you sure are pretty smart, won't you buy my perfect stuff" while others are led down paths that could ultimately waste their time and money.  As I have said numerous occasions, I am a devoted member of this community first and a vendor second, so I'm afraid this isn't much of an option.  If you want to compare vendors, start looking at quantities of posts containing generally helpful information not related specifically to one of their products.  You'll see an even larger difference there.

As far as this thread goes, you, Eric and shmokes made it about me.  I was talking about spinners.

RandyT

[Visitor Q]

All I am trying to do is get strait answers quickly, so please reply to my latest email Randy. 

Thank You.

[shmokes]

As far as this thread goes, you, Eric and shmokes made it about me.  I was talking about spinners.

Hey!  How did I make it about you any more than you did?  I simply chimed into an already in-progress conversation about the tone of your posts -- a conversation you were already a part of.  Before that the only thing of not I had said about you is that the knob on your push/pull spinner is a thing of beauty.

[shmokes]

As I have said numerous occasions, I am a devoted member of this community first and a vendor second, so I'm afraid this isn't much of an option. 

FWIW, you can't really do this, no matter how much you want to or how sincere you are.  You just don't have the credibility to.  That's the nature of a conflict of interest.  When the CEO of T-Mobile says that his is the most reliable service, we don't trust him because he has a motive to say that aside from the actual reliability of his service.  He may sincerely believe what he's saying; he may be totally honest.  But he's got a conflict of interest; we take what he says with a giant bucket of salt.

[RandyT]

He may sincerely believe what he's saying; he may be totally honest.  But he's got a conflict of interest; we take what he says with a giant bucket of salt.

The proof is here if you bother to look.  If you still have problems with the notion afterward, I'm afraid that's your issue, not mine.

RandyT

[isucamper]

We should almost start another thread here so we can have one that's actually comparing the spinners, and one that debates the direct roll that vendors should take in the community.  I think both could be informative threads, but this one is supposed to be about the spinners... so lets get back to it.

So, I got my Turbo Twist High/Low this week and I can add my thoughts to the mix.  Let me start by saying I am absolutely the last person who should be reviewing a spinner.  I believe the only spinner game I've ever played for real is TRON, and that was 20 years go.  That being said, I choose the Turbo Twist based on its tiny foot print and it's claims of being high resolution (also, the talk of the Apache grind had me concerned but as we've discussed in this thread this may be a non-issue at this point).  Digging into the threads and learning about the how different arcade games used different wheels in their spinners, and that some had more "teeth" than others and therefore requires higher resolution to emulate, I can see real value in having the highest resolution spinner available.  Ultimately it will allow for more flexibility, even if the games that actually need it are few in number.

This is the first product I've ordered from GGG, and man was it refreshing to actually get a sheet of instructions describing how to install it.  For a newb like me, this is invaluable and keeps me from spending hours pouring over the vendor's site and these forums to figure out how to make stuff work. 

I am in an extended prototyping phase of my controls, so I only have the spinner mounted in a cardboard box right now.  And like I said, I have very little experience with spinners, but man, is this thing smooth.  It feels really, really nice.  Being high resolution, I had to dial MAME's sensitivity way down for most of the games, but after some tweaking it felt spectacular with every game that I tried.  Also, the stainless steel knob has a weight to it that just feels bling.  Unfortunately, I can't comment too much on the push/pull part of it because 1.  I suck at Discs of Tron and haven't gotten to the levels where you use it, and 2.  The cardboard box I have my controls in flexes when I push and pull the spinner, making it very uncomfortable to use.  I'm going to need to get it mounted in wood before I can really make a judgement on how it feels.  It seems to be working just fine though. 

That's about all I have to offer at this point.  For how negative this thread has gotten, I don't want to sit here and gush all over it, and I can't compare it to any other spinner at all, but I'm really satisfied with it so far.

[shmokes]

I'm afraid that's your issue, not mine.

I'm afraid I don't own GGG, so the opposite is true.  Conflict of interest.  You have one. 

You have one whether you allow it to interfere with your posts here or not.  I know that you understand the concept and apply it to anything else in your life -- seeking the most disinterested, unbiased information sources possible, as opposed to, say, Fox News, for example, or reading a videogame review from IGN or 1up as opposed to believing what the game's publisher has to say about it.  It's so blatantly obvious that I refuse to even argue it with you.  If you want to pretend that it doesn't apply (absurd), whatever, you can just win.  If you want to pretend that your comments are unaffected by your pecuniary interests (equally absurd), whatever, you can win that one too.  It's just too stupid a thing to even debate with anything other than a roll of the eyes.  So that's all you'll get from me.   

[RandyT]

It's just too stupid a thing to even debate with anything other than a roll of the eyes.  So that's all you'll get from me.   

What is stupid is to pretend that every concept exists alone in a vacuum.  History is what defines credibility, not sole circumstance.  No attorney in his right mind would make an argument like the one above without something very specific to show that it indeed applies to a given situation.  Something you've yet to do.

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please stop pretending you know me.

RandyT

[Tim N.]

We should almost start another thread here so we can have one that's actually comparing the spinners, and one that debates the direct roll that vendors should take in the community.  I think both could be informative threads, but this one is supposed to be about the spinners... so lets get back to it.

So, I got my Turbo Twist High/Low this week and I can add my thoughts to the mix.  Let me start by saying I am absolutely the last person who should be reviewing a spinner.  I believe the only spinner game I've ever played for real is TRON, and that was 20 years go.  That being said, I choose the Turbo Twist based on its tiny foot print and it's claims of being high resolution (also, the talk of the Apache grind had me concerned but as we've discussed in this thread this may be a non-issue at this point).  Digging into the threads and learning about the how different arcade games used different wheels in their spinners, and that some had more "teeth" than others and therefore requires higher resolution to emulate, I can see real value in having the highest resolution spinner available.  Ultimately it will allow for more flexibility, even if the games that actually need it are few in number.

This is the first product I've ordered from GGG, and man was it refreshing to actually get a sheet of instructions describing how to install it.  For a newb like me, this is invaluable and keeps me from spending hours pouring over the vendor's site and these forums to figure out how to make stuff work. 

I am in an extended prototyping phase of my controls, so I only have the spinner mounted in a cardboard box right now.  And like I said, I have very little experience with spinners, but man, is this thing smooth.  It feels really, really nice.  Being high resolution, I had to dial MAME's sensitivity way down for most of the games, but after some tweaking it felt spectacular with every game that I tried.  Also, the stainless steel knob has a weight to it that just feels bling.  Unfortunately, I can't comment too much on the push/pull part of it because 1.  I suck at Discs of Tron and haven't gotten to the levels where you use it, and 2.  The cardboard box I have my controls in flexes when I push and pull the spinner, making it very uncomfortable to use.  I'm going to need to get it mounted in wood before I can really make a judgement on how it feels.  It seems to be working just fine though. 

That's about all I have to offer at this point.  For how negative this thread has gotten, I don't want to sit here and gush all over it, and I can't compare it to any other spinner at all, but I'm really satisfied with it so far.

If Randy were to send me a TTHL, I would be more than happy to compare it with my Apache I just installed. I have absolutely no dog in this fight. I can mount it in an existing button hole right next to my Apache and do an absolute side by side. Keep in mind, I probably fall under his "not very discriminate" category in regards to gameplay, but having one next to the other will make me very discriminate very quickly. If people wanted to give me exactly what they are looking for in regards to the review I could cover all the bases rather easily. Specifics would be needed though in regards to particular gameplay (Tron, Forgotten Worlds, etc.), but I could definitely cover every other base in regards to feel, build quality, specs, etc....

... Now I know I must sound like a free handout, but I am absolutely not. Am I willing to pay for one outright? No... not at this point as my control panel is finished and I am not really excited about expanding a hole through the current artwork to accomodate the TTHL in replacement of the Apache. Honestly I only purchased the Apache initially as I designed and drilled my panel for a Tornado and was unaware they were diificult to find. If for some reason I found the urge to have dual spinners an absolute necessity (after installing the TTHL next to the Apache), then I would absolutely pay for one outright. At this point though, I would be more than willing to pay for shipping each way to test out the TTHL, and give a full write-up with photos.

... Do I expect Randy to take me up on this? Absolutely not.... He has no obligation, he knows he makes a great product and his reputation and work speak for themselves. I am also a virtual no-one on this board as I have only been a long time lurker and short time poster. I have no reputation as being a "professional" in regards to controls, as I have no reputation on this board at all, other than the guy "Who made the kick as Multi-Pin project".... I am serious though in regards to posting an unbiased review, and I am slowly working on documenting my mame projects (I have done over a dozen now) on my website and then posting them here for review as well....

... Just my two cents.... Tim

[Tim N.]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

[RayB]

Now, do you understand why I recommended just searching? 

[RandyT]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

No, that's GGG's (Patent pending )  First, and still used with our TurboTwist2 spinner.  The TTHL mounting is more involved, but nearly as small a footprint. 

RandyT

[Tim N.]

Oops.... I forgot that he doesn't use a button hole design, that is Ultimarc's... Depending on the mounting specs, I am still very willing to do this as the reality is that I would mount it, be dissapointed with any holes it may leave in my control panel, and just purchase it outright

No, that's GGG's .  First, and still used with our TurboTwist2 spinner.  The TTHL mounting is more involved, but nearly as small a footprint. 

RandyT

... Thanks, all these spinners are making my thoughts spin...

[shmokes]

No attorney in his right mind would make an argument like the one above without something very specific to show that it indeed applies to a given situation. 

Heh . . . you at least got me on my claim that I wouldn't respond.  The attorney thing was just irresistible.  

Once again, you're wrong.  Attorneys can and must operate on presumptions like this all the time.  For example, if your attorney prepares a will for you and you want to reward her lifelong service to you by leaving her something in the will, the gift fails automatically because of the presumption of fraud or undue influence.  The conflict of interest creates the presumption that the gift is suspect.  If a person confesses to a crime, that confession CANNOT be introduced into evidence against his alleged partners in crime because we operate on the presumption that he has a conflict of interest (mitigating his own punishment by cooperating with police or simply falsely exaggerating the role played by others while minimizing his own).  We simply presume that the evidence is not credible.

And, of course, there's just real life.  As I said before, when T-Mobile's CEO says that T-Mobile's is the most reliable service you don't need to research everything the guy has said to see how well it comports with the truth.  You just take it for what it's worth -- not that much.  His conflict of interest makes his statements presumptively unreliable.  

The primary difference between the T-Mobile CEO and you is that when he talks about his competitors you don't get the subtle impression that he'd like nothing more than for them and their families to be crushed by a meteor.  

[RandyT]

Once again, you're wrong.  Attorneys can and must operate on presumptions like this all the time.

A presumption is just that until you have evidence to corroborate it.  You still haven't shown that, and until you do, you can talk around the words all you like.  It isn't making your case 

BTW, can we talk about spinners now?

RandyT

[shmokes]

A presumption is just that until you have evidence to corroborate it.  You still haven't shown that, and until you do, you can talk around the words all you like.  It isn't making your case 

Sigh . . . once again, you are wrong, Randy.  Perhaps you're thinking of an assumption which is not necessarily the same thing as a presumption.  At best a presumption stands until you have evidence to disprove it.  Take the supposed "presumption of innocence" for example.  You don't have to prove your innocence to be considered innocent.  The other person has to prove your guilt.

In fact, though, many presumptions are irrebuttable, meaning that the presumption is so strong that the court won't even allow any evidence on the matter to prove or disprove the issue.  The gift-to-will-drafting-lawyer is one of those, I think.

So, at best, the presumption of unreliability created by your conflict of interest shifts the burden of proof to you to prove that you do not allow the opinions you express to be affected by your financial interest in your products.  Realistically, though, the presumption simply has to stand because that's a burden you couldn't possibly carry.

[isucamper]

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please let this be a run of 25 inch vector monitors.

please please please please

[RandyT]

So, at best, the presumption of unreliability created by your conflict of interest shifts the burden of proof to you to prove that you do not allow the opinions you express to be affected by your financial interest in your products.  Realistically, though, the presumption simply has to stand because that's a burden you couldn't possibly carry.

And that's where you are wrong.   That's why I said that you only need to look here for evidence to the contrary.  Once again, you are taking some very specific examples and attempting to use them as a broad brush.  If you presumed someone was guilty of something and had no evidence to support it,  and went before a judge with a presumption as weak as the one you are trying to attach to me, then you would be laughed out of the room.  And deep down, regardless of all of your verbal thrusting and parrying, you know it.

By your logic, no-one should ever believe a word you say.  This is a forum you spend a lot of time on and have been part of for years.  Yet you seem to have less interest in arcade controls than getting into mindless, combative arguments, having not built a panel for yourself (unless having done so only very recently) and have seemingly gleaned little information for your time here.  With most of your arguments degenerating into loosely applied legalese, which is a direct result of your current studies.  Therefore, one could quite easily presume that you only frequent here for the "practice" in making your legal cases, and that you argue solely for the sake of argument, rather than to present good information to your readers.

But I know that it isn't entirely true, because of your history here.  Now feel free to offer me the same consideration    BTW, I'm flattered that you thought to compare me to the CEO of T-mobil.   

And FWIW, I just dropped ~5K, in this economy no less, to have a run of a very special retro item produced that maybe only a handful of folks will be interested in, while I continue to drive an 8-year old vehicle. 

Please let this be a run of 25 inch vector monitors.

I'm afraid that would be a very short run.  My pockets aren't deep enough to bring those back to life, unfortunately.  I don't want to give away too much, but there have been a few attempts to make these parts in the past, some with more success than others, but none as comprehensive as this.  You will be able to consider these  "Old New Stock".

RandyT

[shmokes]

Ugh . . . this legal metaphor is getting out of control.  Randy, you aren't being charged with a crime.  You don't get a presumption of innocence.  Your conflict of interest gives what you say a presumption of ulterior motive.  The point is only that a presumption means a starting point.  If you presume something you treat that fact as established unless proven otherwise.  You don't need additional evidence to prove a presumption because by definition you presume that it's true.  We presume that the sun will come up tomorrow.  If someone says that it won't, people continue to hold the presumption that it will unless provided with convincing evidence to the contrary.  That's what a presumption is.

BTW, I've built three panels.

[RandyT]

Ugh . . . this legal metaphor is getting out of control.

Fine, then stop making stupid assumptions about my motives when there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.  Better?


RandyT

[shmokes]

Seriously . . . don't be absurd.  The evidence is that you have a financial stake in what people think of your products.  Approaching retailers in any other way is naive, and you know you do exactly the same thing in your own life.  I don't have anything against the CEO of T-mobile and I can't imagine he'd take what I said in this thread personally.  It's just common sense.  Why do you suppose critics exist?  Why do you suppose there is even a market for something like RetroBlast?  Gimme a break.  Get over yourself.

[RandyT]

Seriously . . . don't be absurd.  The evidence is that you have a financial stake in what people think of your products. 

There is more to life than money.  To believe that it is a primary motivator in the life of all individuals is very lawyerly of you

RandyT

[shmokes]

To believe that it is probably a primary significant motivator in the life of all most individuals is very lawyerly of you realistic

Fixt.   

[batdive]

Well this was an interesting/informational thread up to the point of the flame wars. 

[Ummon]

Randy doesn't have an economic angle on this. He has an emotional one. Most people do in something or other.

[shmokes]

Randy doesn't have an economic angle on this.

Oh . . . Randy's giving his spinners away for free now?  Why didn't somebody say so?  Sign me up!   

[TOK]

Randy, Shmokes gets you with the same rope a dope in every thread. 

[RandyT]

Randy, Shmokes gets you with the same rope a dope in every thread. 

Yeah, apparently he has little else he finds joy in

[RandyT]

Oh . . . Randy's giving his spinners away for free now?  Why didn't somebody say so?  Sign me up!   

In all honesty, shmokes, the TTHL was a huge investment in design time and special precision machined parts.  It will be quite some time before I see any return on this item, if ever, due to the very niche nature of the product.  I knew this going into it, so I'm not complaining, but it is currently a big net minus to my business.  It was done primarily to "give something back" to the community, by filling a void that, IMHO, was not being adequately addressed.

So you can think what you want.  But you really have no clue in this instance.

RandyT

[shmokes]

You're missing the point.  I'm not insulting you.  There's nothing wrong with running a business.  There's nothing wrong with making profits.  There's nothing wrong with trying to steer customers to your product.  Maybe you'll make a profit on the TTHL, maybe you'll barely break even, maybe you'll take a hit on it.  It's irrelevant.  I'm not saying that you're a sleazy guy.  I'm saying that regardless of whether you will ever recoup your investment in TTHL, you have a substantial interest in my choosing your product over your competitor's.  And that's fine.  I love it.  And if you put the product out there thinking that there was a good chance you'd never turn a profit on it, and almost no chance you'd ever make very much money off it,  ---smurfing--- awesome, man.  Thanks.  You're a great guy, and a wonderful asset to the community.

But it doesn't change anything.  You still have the same financial interest in your products in general, and specifically in the TTHL.  And that's fine.  If it's any consolation I'll take anything bad that Apache or Ultimarc has to say about you with EXACTLY the same grain of salt.  You see that. 

[RandyT]

Maybe you'll make a profit on the TTHL, maybe you'll barely break even, maybe you'll take a hit on it.  It's irrelevant. 

No, I'm afraid it's not.  You have been speaking this entire time about motivation.  No-one who is is motivated only by profit throws money to the wind, and this is the reason you don't see more obscure devices being brought back to life.  IOW, "there ain't no money in it", so there must be some other reason to do it. 

What you say is true in general terms, but to snap to judgment based on simple circumstance is frankly just another form of prejudice.

RandyT

[RayB]

Randy, I get Shmokes point loud and clear. I don't know why you don't. He says that no matter how honest or factual a person is, their opinion will still get scrutinized or assumed to possibly be biased if the person with the opinion has a vested interest in the thing they are talking about. How hard is that to understand? It's not an accusation, it's human nature.

[RandyT]

Randy, I get Shmokes point loud and clear. I don't know why you don't. He says that no matter how honest or factual a person is, their opinion will still get scrutinized or assumed to possibly be biased if the person with the opinion has a vested interest in the thing they are talking about. How hard is that to understand? It's not an accusation, it's human nature.

Yes, I do get it.  Said so in the last post. 

You can suspect it if you like, but if you are going to attach that kind of sentiment to an individual, you might want to have something to back it up.  Shilling one's own products, defending inaccurate technological claims and downright lying about a products capabilities would be good examples of why someone should be distrustful of a vendor.  Merely being the inventor / provider of the product is not.

I mean, when your cable company tells you they are all-digital and provide better service than your antenna can, do you automatically distrust the statement because they provide the service?

We are discussing quantifiable facts, not simple statements like X is better than Y.  You don't need to rely on trust, as you can test these claims for yourself (quite simply, in fact.)  They do not exist in some ethereal place where only the inventor can see them, rather they are in plain view if you take the time to look.  You can't just arbitrarily discount information of this nature because you think someone might have a motive to lie.

One's credibility, which is what shmokes stated I had none of, is directly linked to one's reputation.  I am merely defending mine.

RandyT

[TPB]

shmokes, how many pieces of advice are you offering to Randy ?

I get your point about the owner of a business having a vested interest in plugging their own products.  But are you suggesting that Randy should refrain from posting altogether ?

the inventor sucks as public relations.

If Randy employed a PR spokesman, that person would have the same "vested interest" as himself, in plugging his employer's products.  So evidently, this piece of advice has no connection to that argument.

You mention above, that you weren't insulting Randy, but I can see how it could be interpreted this way.

Maybe Randy could do with a PR face (couldn't we all), but that's his own personal decision, it's not something that needs to be forced down his throat.

[TPB]

Returning to the thread's topic ...

The OP has made his decision.

He's gone for the TT-HL.

TurboTwist High-Low Spinner

[shmokes]

shmokes, how many pieces of advice are you offering to Randy ?

Two, I suppose. 

The discussion about bias and vested interests is a digression and it is in that discussion that I said I was not insulting Randy.  And I wasn't.  I didn't mean it as an insult at all, and it is strange for him to take it as an insult.  Randy wants to make a profit on the TTHL.  If that's not possible, he wants to break even.  If that's not possible, he'd like to lose as little money as possible on it.  I didn't say that money is his only interest in making the TTHL, but it is an interest even if it is simply a desire to lose as little of it as possible.  Randy would LOVE it if somebody placed an order tomorrow for 1000 TTHL spinners.  RetroBlast, on the other hand, would not care in the slightest whether somebody places an order tomorrow for 1000 TTHL spinners.  I'm sorry, Randy, but there simply is a difference there. 

On the larger question of public relations, it's reasonable to take my comment (that he sucks at it) as an insult.  I mean it as criticism, though, not an insult.  He really does suck at it quite badly, and it cuts into his bottom line, IMO.  He can do what he wants with my criticisim: take it as an insult and resent me for it, go indifferent and just ignore it, or accept the criticism and try to improve.  Makes no difference to me.  I'm over it.