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Scanlines on vector games?
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Ummon:

--- Quote from: NickG on October 02, 2008, 04:00:21 am ---It is just the shadow mask /aperture grille:  Vector games do not have scan-lines(see correction in CT's post  ;)).  Here is something to try with one of your raster monitors at home to understand what you are looking at:  look at one of your monitors very closely when it is off.  Do you see those lines? Those are of the aperture grille or the shadow mask.  They are vertical on a horizontally positioned monitor and thus horizontal when you turn it on it's side (vertical monitor)  This is the same thing you were picking out in those Donkey Kong photos in one of your other scan-line confusion threads.  *they are not the scan-lines.

--- End quote ---

But see, the others say no. And what I saw wasn't from looking close up. I was standing at regular distance in front of the CP of the cab. However, due to the starcade vids fidelity, you can only see them close up there. (As well, I do see scanlines on original displays. We'd have to sit down in front of some machines and talk about this.)



--- Quote from: ChadTower on October 02, 2008, 09:13:36 am ---Vector monitors do display scanlines if you have the screen/brightness turned up too high.  They aren't horizontal or retrace lines like a raster but they are still scanlines.  They just happen to be direct XY grid movement patterns since the guns are tracing shapes rather than scanning whole horizontal lines.

--- End quote ---

Ah, I thought so.



--- Quote from: RayB on October 02, 2008, 11:31:30 am ---Ummon, what you saw is related only to the color ones. Something related to the method they use to get different colors to show up. I noticed the same thing at a fellow collector's house who has a few vector machines (both B&W and color).

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You know, the other night I remembered this was so, and then wondered if I remembered correctly.



--- Quote from: RandyT on October 02, 2008, 03:46:32 pm ---
It's also interesting to note that a hi-res PC screen is actually capable of a sharper color "vector" image than the original color vector screens.  It won't be as bright, due to the raster scanning method, but because of the finer pitch of the shadow mask in the modern display, it will actually be a higher resolution output.

RandyT


--- End quote ---

Yes, as I've been finding out in particular with the new AAE emulator. So, particularly as I've not seen the answer anywhere: WHY is a vector display so bright??  (Gimme as technical as you like.)


NickG:

--- Quote from: Ummon on October 03, 2008, 07:53:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: NickG on October 02, 2008, 04:00:21 am ---It is just the shadow mask /aperture grille:  Vector games do not have scan-lines(see correction in CT's post  ;)).  Here is something to try with one of your raster monitors at home to understand what you are looking at:  look at one of your monitors very closely when it is off.  Do you see those lines? Those are of the aperture grille or the shadow mask.  They are vertical on a horizontally positioned monitor and thus horizontal when you turn it on it's side (vertical monitor)  This is the same thing you were picking out in those Donkey Kong photos in one of your other scan-line confusion threads.  *they are not the scan-lines.

--- End quote ---

But see, the others say no. And what I saw wasn't from looking close up. I was standing at regular distance in front of the CP of the cab. However, due to the starcade vids fidelity, you can only see them close up there. (As well, I do see scanlines on original displays. We'd have to sit down in front of some machines and talk about this.)

--- End quote ---

I am not sure what you mean by "the others say no."  Please elaborate if you care to help me learn something, too.  I was just making sure that you understand that the uniformly spaced lines that span the entire vector monitor are not scan lines and that the normally visible vector lines really are just point to point behind the grille/mask.  It would be really nice if many of BYOAC could sit down in front of some machines together, but I'd rather be playing than talking,  :laugh2:.   I say that and yet I am on a forum.  "Talking"


--- Quote from: ChadTower on October 02, 2008, 09:13:36 am ---Vector monitors do display scanlines if you have the screen/brightness turned up too high.  They aren't horizontal or retrace lines like a raster but they are still scanlines.  They just happen to be direct XY grid movement patterns since the guns are tracing shapes rather than scanning whole horizontal lines.

--- End quote ---


Okay, I previously thought they were just referred to as retrace lines when working with a vector monitor, but I am still learning, too.
ChadTower:

--- Quote from: NickG on October 04, 2008, 01:27:14 am ---Okay, I previously thought they were just referred to as retrace lines when working with a vector monitor, but I am still learning, too.

--- End quote ---

Retrace lines are on a raster... it's the diagonal movement from the end of a horizontal line to the beginning of the next horizontal line.  Normally the gun gets turned off during this reset so you don't see anything happen but if the screen/brightness is up too high then you will see them.  You will also see them if certain parts have gone bad or if your monitor is way out of adjustment.
RandyT:

--- Quote from: Ummon on October 03, 2008, 07:53:42 pm ---Yes, as I've been finding out in particular with the new AAE emulator. So, particularly as I've not seen the answer anywhere: WHY is a vector display so bright??  (Gimme as technical as you like.)

--- End quote ---

Vector displays are bright because the duty cycle for the beam drawing the graphics can be much higher than with a raster monitor.  The vector monitor literally draws the individual objects on the face of the CRT, so depending on how many objects there are, the amount of "on" time to "off" time can be greater than with a raster monitor.  Of course, this also tends to make the objects "shimmer" because the brightness is always changing and more on-screen objects means more flicker.  The phosphor on a vector CRT also tends to be of longer persistence (at least with the mono screens).

I tend to believe that a raster monitor with a very high refresh rate, and the output cranked, could actually approach the brightness of a true color vector monitor.  The mono ones will always be nearly impossible to duplicate.  They don't have shadow masks in them.

RandyT

Ummon:

--- Quote from: ChadTower on October 04, 2008, 04:51:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: NickG on October 04, 2008, 01:27:14 am ---Okay, I previously thought they were just referred to as retrace lines when working with a vector monitor, but I am still learning, too.

--- End quote ---

Retrace lines are on a raster... it's the diagonal movement from the end of a horizontal line to the beginning of the next horizontal line.  Normally the gun gets turned off during this reset so you don't see anything happen but if the screen/brightness is up too high then you will see them.  You will also see them if certain parts have gone bad or if your monitor is way out of adjustment.

--- End quote ---

Oh, I didn't understand the first time. These are sorta squirly lines that emanate from the center. You can actually see these using the AAE emulator if you turn the line phosphorescence or something up high. So that's not what I mean. But I don't think what I'm talking about is what NickG said, either. (Nor exactly in the raster monitor thread mentioned that I posted a little while ago, though the mask lines are a visual element.) The lines in that case would be continual - each drawn vector would be permeated with little divisions - and they aren't in what I'm seeing. They're spaced more than that.
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