Software Support > controls.dat
controls.xml outdated
Howard_Casto:
--- Quote from: u_rebelscum on September 22, 2008, 08:23:00 pm ---
--- Quote from: TheShanMan on September 20, 2008, 10:16:15 pm ---I'm sure they are fine in the context of the actual arcade cabinet, but in the context of mame they're not so useful....
--- End quote ---
We have to be careful here. Example: One person likes "shoot", another likes "fire". Which would used for verified button labeled "A" in your case? IMO, which ever the final user wants as long as the official value stays "A".
Take the example a step further: the shoot person replaces all "fire" with "shoot", and vice versa for the fire person. IMO that's fine as long as it stays personal copy.
A middle ground is add another field to the labels, say FakeValue. This could also be used as a placeholder for personal or unverified names. Apps oculd be edited to be able use those, or a simple app/batch/serch&replace could move the FakeValue over the Value for people who want it so no changes would be needed for apps to use them. The shoot vs fire issue would still appear though.
Example: 1943kai
<Game RomName="1943kai" GameName="1943 Kai: Midway Kaisen (Japan)" NumPlayers="2" Alternating="0" Mirrored="1" UsesService="0" Tilt="0" Cocktail="0">
<Status Verified="1" />
<MiscDetails>A - Fire, B - Bomb Pressing both buttons will allow the plane to loop</MiscDetails>
<Player Number="1" NumButtons="2">
<Controls>
<Control Name="8-way Joystick">
<Constant Name="joy8way" />
</Control>
</Controls>
<Labels>
<Label Name="P1_BUTTON1" Value="A" FakeValue="Fire" />
<Label Name="P1_BUTTON2" Value="B" FakeVaule="Bomb"/>
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_LEFT" Value="Left" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_DOWN" Value="Down" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_UP" Value="Up" />
<Label Name="P1_JOYSTICK_RIGHT" Value="Right" />
</Labels>
</Player>
</Game>
Italics are added, strikeout are deleted.
--- End quote ---
I think this entry in particular is a good example of why we DON'T need additional labels. Notice the misc details and how it describes the button functions.... Boom, you know how to play. 1943 kai doesn't have an instruction card, nor does it even have labels on some versions of the control panel overlay! Why? The game has two frikkin buttons! The original game designers felt that people could pretty well figure out how to play a game with such few controls, especially considering it was the second sequel in the series. We actually got the "A" and "B" from the game manual and therefore the entry already gives the user more info than they need.
I mean that's the issue right there isn't it..... how is it "impractical" to give just as much data as a player would have if they found it in the arcade? We don't really need to embelish labels just because they aren't as pretty as we like and imho that is exactly what we'd be doing in this case. You don't even need "A" and "B" you just need to know there are two buttons in the game and where they are mapped on your control panel.
And just to expand upon the info... if you REALLY wanted to know more about the mysterious "A" and "B" the original 1943 has a very detailed game bezel on the subject. I'm guessing the user will be playing the game in mame... all they have to do is enable the bezel view to read it. And if you go to look at the bezel, it becomes apparent why they used the labels "A" and "B" .... A is simple enough "A to shoot" but B has like a paragraph explaining that the button actually has four functions and how you should use them in various situations. It would have looked bad asthetically to have a "Shoot" button and a "B" button so they just used A and B.
See how messy this can get? In short, rgardless of anyones personal feelings on the subject we don't want to start adding supplimental buttons because quite frankly, it's hard enough to figure out what to put for the official labels. A lot of thought and time went into each entry so if it's labeled "A" and "B" instead of something more descriptive, I can assure it's that way for a reason. And rebel is exactly right btw.... things get too subjective when we start making up labels.... I remember a entry years ago where somebody labeled the fire button to a game "bullets." The game used an icon and I don't think english was their first language so it made perfect sense to them, but it left me scratching my head. Luckily the user hadn't properly referenced the entry and I went back and found the real label (fire) which made much more sense.
All the ideas thus far haven't really changed the format of controls.dat, but merely added something on the database end or expanded the functionality of the webpage and I can get behind any of that. I don't think it's a good idea to mess with the format itself though and that is what such a suggestion would do, radically alter the format.
TheShanMan:
Howard, I wholeheartedly disagree with you and as best as I can tell it seems to be because you're not quite getting me. I'm not suggesting any kind of format change. All I'm suggesting is for games that have unhelpful labels, there would be a verified (official) record for the game and a perpetually unverified record with more helpful labels. OK, so maybe there aren't 1000 original games that fall into this category, but that doesn't mean the issue is a non-issue. Regarding showing the bezels in game, I already addressed that. The goal with a mame cab is to try to make operation as idiot proof as possible. I'm not always the one hosting company when it comes to playing my mame cab, so I can't always turn on a bezel for them to see instructions. That is why the control.xml information is so vital - it gets picked up by CPWizard which is displayed whenever the game is paused, as well as within my front end. Right now I think about 5-10% of the games in my favorites list are missing helpful information, either because the real CP was labeled with A and B, or because there is no record for the game at all (possibly due to rareness/no cpanel image). I have found valid, short, but seemingly unprovable or non-official labels for all of them.
And I hear you on the miscellaneous details part - my CPWizard layouts do use it. Obviously that is vital and can provide more meaning to the button labels. But #1, none of those 5-10% have the button information spelled out there, and #2, even if they did, it would be nice to have something helpful for button labels. Getting back to my examples of vs. excitebike and vs. super mario bros, I have modified the controls.xml entries to have real button labels, they are accurate (as found in the instructions) and they're not too long for a label by any means.
I don't imagine I'm having any more success in convincing you this time as I have in the past though (I haven't really said anything new here - just restating things you seem to have missed or ignored). I think it's a mistake to disregard these situations and my prediction is it will lead to someone releasing unofficial/unauthorized controls.xml files that are more focused on being practical. Maybe you're fine with that? It's my opinion that it would be better to have a unified project that supplies 2 versions of controls.xml.
SirPoonga:
Howard, it isn't that simple. The bezel may not be readable on an arcade monitor (and it may not even be shown).
I could see there being a label and an action attribute. For most games they will be the same. The entry form could automatically fill in action with the label when it is typed in. Context sensitive buttons might be interesting.
cdbrown:
--- Quote from: Howard_Casto on September 23, 2008, 08:28:13 am ---Heh.... we rose cdbrown from the dead, so we must be doing something right. He's one of the "two other guys" I mentioned.
--- End quote ---
Well - finally getting settled back in Aus again and thought I'd better check out the old byoac forums and see what's happening. Now all I need to do is get mame up and running on the new pc and get the latest set and get playing and figure out the buttons.
headkaze:
--- Quote from: SirPoonga on September 23, 2008, 11:04:01 am ---Howard, it isn't that simple. The bezel may not be readable on an arcade monitor (and it may not even be shown).
I could see there being a label and an action attribute. For most games they will be the same. The entry form could automatically fill in action with the label when it is typed in. Context sensitive buttons might be interesting.
--- End quote ---
I like the idea of having an Action attribute for labels. I think some people would prefer to use them over the actual labels used in the arcades, since many games have generic CP's.
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