TheShanMan's Defender restoration - New repro wiring harnesses!!!

[TheShanMan]

I finally have what will be a dedicated arcade game: Defender! Picked it up for $100, not working. It'll need some cosmetic attention, though it's not bad - artwork is relatively good for 28 yrs old, but the lower front panel, which is pressed wood, has water damage (thankfully the panels that have artwork are plywood!). I imagine that's easy enough to replace.

The big challenge for me is going to be getting it up and running, though thankfully we have some Williams experts like RetroACTIVE here (I'm counting on you guys! ). I haven't fired it up yet, but he said the screen comes on red, and no sound. I see one of the monitor boards is popped off - not sure if that happened during transport or if that may have been part of the problem. Also I see a part of the monitor is broken off of it's mounting point, but not sure if that's a significant issue.

I probably won't want to spend a lot of time working on this in the short term (I have enough stuff to do right now), but I would like to cover the basics and see if I can get it going without a lot of effort.

The guy actually thought the corroded high score batteries might be the problem!

Pictures to follow very soon.

[TheShanMan]

Here are the pics.

[TheShanMan]

And some more...

[SirPeale]

One of the monitor daughtercards isn't plugged in.  In one of those pictures it's to the left of the monitor.  Without it won't work.

[Level42]

All your board-set problems are (soon) solved:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=83897.0

[SirPeale]

The guy actually thought the corroded high score batteries might be the problem!

They very well could be part of the issue!  The corrosion gets into the board and actually creeps along the traces.  Destroy enough traces, board stops working.

[Level42]

http://homearcade.org/BBBB/wmsbatt.html

[TheShanMan]

One of the monitor daughtercards isn't plugged in.  In one of those pictures it's to the left of the monitor.  Without it won't work.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post. It may have popped out during transport, or maybe it was like that before - dunno. On quick glance I couldn't tell which way it plugs in, and I don't want to plug it in the wrong way and fry something! I'll go out and have another look. Hopefully it can only plug in one way.

The guy actually thought the corroded high score batteries might be the problem!

They very well could be part of the issue!  The corrosion gets into the board and actually creeps along the traces.  Destroy enough traces, board stops working.

Ah. Good point. Though I know the guy wasn't thinking of that - he said he knows nothing about arcade games. I'll look closely at the area surrounding the batteries and see how it looks.

Thanks Level42 for the links. I ran across those last night when I was searching the boards here for anything relating to Defender restoration. The lithium battery idea sounds good. I haven't read that page yet, but if it's a simple/quick conversion then it's a no brainer. I don't want to go down the road of that multi-williams board at this point. I'd like to keep it as authentic as possible.

[TheShanMan]

I plugged in that monitor board (yeah, it only goes in one way). Fired up the machine. First I see a yellow hash pattern, and then after a while it goes red and then I start hearing a sound that alternates between 2 frequencies 2 or 3 times per second (kind of like a police siren, but much faster). Here are pictures showing each of the screen images, as well as a picture that focuses in on the battery area. It doesn't look to me like the corrosion is enough to make it stop working, but I'm no expert.

Oh, and after I giggled some wires, the 4 led's went red (they were off prior to that). I also checked the voltages at the PS - 5.00V, -4.96V, and 11.97V, so that seems fine. Although I hear a high pitched noise that seems quite a bit louder than I'd expect it to be, and I think it's coming from the PS.

Also, could an expert have a look at picture #4 (above) and tell me if that coil that's hanging is a problem as is? I can see where it's supposed to go, but it doesn't look to me like that would cause an electrical problem. And if you see picture #5, there's a red wire that goes off the bottom of the picture, which is just dangling there. I'm not sure where it goes exactly, but I'm guessing it goes on one of those terminals next to the yellow wire that's by itself. Can someone tell me where it goes?

I would really appreciate advice on how to proceed!

BTW, monitor pictures are a bit washed out, but in person it's quite yellow and quite red, trust me.

[TheShanMan]

Is there a defender manual available online?

[SirPeale]

The thing that's hanging down is the width coil.  As long as it's not totally broken or touching anything, it'll be fine.

Looks like you're getting rug pattern in that last picture.  That's a good thing. 

I'll bet you have at least one bad RAM.  You should switch it over to 4164 anyway.  More reliable.  I'll be offering a 4116 --> 4164 converter in the very near future.

Check the bottom of the cab, you might find some 4116 in there to see if it's running OK.  Stuff in bags = likely ok.  Stuff on the floor = blown ones that have already been replaced.

Feel the RAM with your fingers.  A dead giveaway that a RAM is bad is they get HOT!

I'd recap the power supply.  Heck, I'd recap all the boards.  The caps are almost 30 years old.  They're due.

[SirPeale]

Oh yes...I've seen worse corrosion.  You need to nip it in the bud, though.

Take out the board, and start LIGHTLY brushing the corrosion with a toothbrush dipped in vinegar.  Yes, vinegar.  It'll fizz. That's fine.  Wipe it with a damp paper towel and dry well.

[TheShanMan]

I couldn't see any chips labeled 4116. Which ones are they? I felt every chip on all the boards, and none felt hot. I am curious about a seemingly missing rom chip in picture 3. Is that normal?

I pressed that momentary switch on the sound board, and a couple of minutes later it started playing some music, followed by an explosion sound, and then repeating over and over. What does that mean?

I looked at that dangling red wire, and it connects to one of the terminals for that dangling coil. What am I supposed to hook it up to?

[Ummon]

Very nice condition. Quite worth it.

[Steve]

Is there a defender manual available online?

http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manualsdefender.html

Hope this helps 

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Ummon. Since I'm new to buying cabinets, I don't have a great feel for what is good condition or what I should pay for a certain condition, but Peale and RetroACTIVE were kind enough to offer advice to me based on the description I got yesterday. I also thought it was good condition for the money, but as a noob it's nice to get confirmation from others here.

Thanks to Peale for directing me to online manuals. And thanks to Steve as well (not sure if they're the same files yet, or if one set of files is better than the other). Looks like there's a lot that's defender related, and I have plenty of reading to do. So far this is pretty exciting stuff. Hopefully it continues to be exciting, rather than getting old and frustrating.

Oh, and can someone confirm for me that the PS isn't stock? Looks to me like the old one was scrapped and replaced.

[SirPeale]

I couldn't see any chips labeled 4116. Which ones are they? I felt every chip on all the boards, and none felt hot. I am curious about a seemingly missing rom chip in picture 3. Is that normal?

I pressed that momentary switch on the sound board, and a couple of minutes later it started playing some music, followed by an explosion sound, and then repeating over and over. What does that mean?

I looked at that dangling red wire, and it connects to one of the terminals for that dangling coil. What am I supposed to hook it up to?

The sound means your sound board appears to be working.  We'll get to that after we make sure everything else is working.  The sound board isn't necessary to gameplay, but we need to make sure everything else is working first.

I'm not seeing the dangling red wire.  I see the width coil, and the wires connected to it.

Let me say this: since it's currently working, DON'T SCREW WITH IT.  We can deal with other stuff in a bit.  Let's get the boards working.

The 4116 are the three banks of eight chips in the corner of the board.  Look closer, they should say 4116 on them, perhaps surrounded by other text.

[Level42]

I'll be following this thead closely as I'm also working on a Defender from a fellow collector here that's completely dead. Don't get any picture and all the 4 LED's on the rom board are on. PSU is replaced with a switcher and supplies are OK.

Just for the sake of it, try the reset button on the soundboard. When I did that, i dot the "Defender" sound constantly repeating until I powered it off.

[SirPeale]

Oh, and can someone confirm for me that the PS isn't stock? Looks to me like the old one was scrapped and replaced.

You're correct.  Someone took out the linear PS and replaced it with a switcher.

[TheShanMan]

Cleaned up the cpu/video board with vinegar and a toothbrush. Here's an after pic.

Only 4 of the ram chips have 4116 on them. The rest are something else. None of them get hot though.

I'm a little reluctant to pull the roms and re-seat them simply because they're kind of stuck in there. They will pop free with a little bit of effort but since they're 28 years old I don't know how worried I should be about breaking one. Am I being overly concerned?

What's the next step? Do I just need to buy a cap kit and start with that? Or are there any steps I can take now, before having to go down the road of replacing things (not that I wouldn't do the caps, but if I can get it running sooner than later I'd be happy!).

[SirPeale]

How are you removing the ROMs?  DO NOT use a chip puller.  Use a jewelers screwdriver.  Pry up on one end, then the other, walking the chips slowly up.

But I don't think you're having ROM issues.

Have you fired Defender up in Mame yet?  Check the startup sequence.  How does it compare to what you have?

[TheShanMan]

Actually I WAS using a screwdriver, but I was thinking "I wonder where my chip puller is", so I'm glad you said that before I found it.

I don't think I'm having a ROM issue (yet) either. There is NO startup sequence. It just turns on to that yellow hash screen and that is all it does.

[Kevin Mullins]

Clean and re-seat any socketed chips. (my $.02 on that part)

"dangling red wire"

Horizontal position jumper.
Connect to any of those three pins, whichever suits your needs.... Left , Center , Right.

[SirPeale]

Oh, THAT wire.  Sorry, didn't see it.  Yes, follow Kevin's advice.

I'd like to see some video of what happens when you turn it on, if that's possible.

In this picture:



it looks like you're getting rug pattern.

[TheShanMan]

Regarding the wire, I'll hook it up, but how would one decide which one to hook it to. It's not an arbitrary choice, is it?

Here's a better pic. I could try making a video but not sure what that would accomplish. All it would show is the screen showing this as soon as the monitor warms up. Let me know if this pic isn't adequate though.

And to bring attention to an old question again: is there no such thing as "rom 5"? I have 11 roms, numbered 1-12, with a hole at #5.

[SirPeale]

Just pick one of them for now.  It's a horizontal centering pin.  When you get a stable working picture you can adjust it to best fit.  When you recap the monitor likely you'd have to move it again anyway.

Oh yeah...as for the RAM, good that none of it is hot.  And as for the different numbers, sometimes manufacturers will have different numbers for compatible parts.  Not sure about 4116 RAM.  But you should trade the 4116 for 4164 anyway.  I'll be offering RAM and an adapter in my store soon.

[TheShanMan]

Are you suggesting that the ram may be part of my problem? Or just that it's a good thing to do, and in my case more preventative maintenance than anything else? And the caps - is a cap kit just "good to do" but nothing to do with my problem? I'm fully willing to spend the money to do it right, but just wondering if these are things that might be factoring into my problem or more of a "while you're at it, might as well do the caps and rams"?

Also note that I edited my last post with a better pic as you requested.

[Kevin Mullins]

And to bring attention to an old question again: is there no such thing as "rom 5"? I have 11 roms, numbered 1-12, with a hole at #5.

http://www.crazykong.com/pcbs/A%20-%20F/Defender.pcb.html

[SirPeale]

4116 RAMs on Williams boards are problematic.  They're a high-fail item.  If there aren't any bad RAMs on that board I'll be surprised.  It's because they take multiple voltages - +5V, -5V and +12V.  Conversely, 4164’s only need +5v and runs much cooler.

Recapping the monitor makes sense because the originals are 30 years old.  They're not getting any better.  But since your monitor is currently working, I'd concentrate on getting the boards working first.

The RAM may very well be part of the problem.  Check the ROM board, there are four LEDs.  What do they do when the machine is booting?  You can open the coin door and look inside to see what it's doing after hitting the power switch.

[SirPeale]

And yes...there's supposed to be an empty hole there.

Another thing to consider is the damage from the battery.  It looks like the traces may be eaten away, you may have to run some jumper wires.

[TheShanMan]

The RAM may very well be part of the problem.  Check the ROM board, there are four LEDs.  What do they do when the machine is booting?  You can open the coin door and look inside to see what it's doing after hitting the power switch.

The LED's come on and stay on. If the ram may be part of the problem (even though none are hot), how soon will you have them available? I'd like to keep this ball rolling as much as possible so I can get it up and running at the soonest possible time, so I would love to order them from you but I hope I won't have to wait long.

Another thing to consider is the damage from the battery.  It looks like the traces may be eaten away, you may have to run some jumper wires.

I'll try some continuity tests to see how it is.

Did that new monitor pic tell you anything?

[Level42]

... I'd like to keep this ball rolling as much as possible so I can get it up and running at the soonest possible time, so I would love to order them from you but I hope I won't have to wait long.

You'll need to be a bit more patient my friend, this sounds like a problem on the mainboard to me. You'll have to check if the watchdog is constantly tripping the reset of the CPU. From there, you may find lot of problems that you'll have to be experienced in finding in board errors for.
There's no "magical solution" to a problem like this. I doubt it's the RAM because the board doesn't even come up right now. I have the same problem with a Defender I'm working on here right now.

If you're really in a hurry, I'd reconsider the new multi-williams by JROK. Although I can understand why you want to try to repair the original hardware first.

[TheShanMan]

I understand. I just mean that I hope to avoid unnecessary delays. It's not like I'm sticking this in the corner to deal with at some later time. That's all.

If you're having the same problem then I hope you'll be posting your findings.

I'll look into the watchdog circuitry. I saw some info on that in the manuals, so hopefully it's enough to help me do some checks. I don't have an o-scope so unfortunately I'm limited for any tests that need one.

I appreciate all the hand-holding. I've already learned a lot!

BTW, I checked for continuity of the ground at the batteries and various other parts of the board, and it doesn't appear that corrosion has broken any of the circuits.

[RetroACTIVE]

+ It appears that your system isn't even properly initializing... this looks more like a voltage/connector issue at the moment.  Or your switcher's rise time is way too slow...
+ If it were a RAM problem... you would at least get a rug pattern...
+ Check voltage on each of your boards... (not at the power supply)...
+ Looks as if this unit has had some moisture issues... you need to check the ribbon cable that connects the ROM board... pull it out... clean the pins and put it back on...
+ Your batteries may not even be working since it appears as if the holder is way corroded.  They are most likely not the cause of this issue you are having.  The batteries are there to provide back up voltage to the CMOS RAM.

 

[SirPeale]

+ If it were a RAM problem... you would at least get a rug pattern...

The rug pattern is part of the RAM test.  If the RAM is bad, you won't get proper rug pattern.

I had one bad RAM in my Defender, and got yellow bars but not a bit of rug pattern.  Replaced that RAM and finally was able to go into onboard test.

*DEFINITELY* check your voltage on the board.  I'm sure your power supply needs recapping.  Remember...30 year old caps aren't your friends.

*DEFINITELY* clean any socketed chip legs.  If you don't have a fibreglass pencil, get one.  BE GENTLE.  Clean both sides of the legs.

*DEFINITELY* check solder joints on the PCBs as well as connectors.  Williams connectors are known to be problematic.

[TheShanMan]

Guys, this gives me some good stuff to try. From a quick search it looks like I can get a fiberglass pencil at an auto parts store? I'll go there and get one - never heard of them before.

Peale, remember that my power supply was replaced with a switcher, so caps wouldn't be an issue on it I assume. I am getting proper voltages at the supply, but I haven't checked rise time or voltages at various points on the board.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[SirPeale]

Guys, this gives me some good stuff to try. From a quick search it looks like I can get a fiberglass pencil at an auto parts store? I'll go there and get one - never heard of them before.

That's correct.  Excellent for cleaning corrosion off...well, pretty much anything.  Works great for electronics.  Be careful when cleaning the dust, they're glass fibres!  They will get in your skin.  I have one in my thumb for a few days now, it's particularly annoying. 

Peale, remember that my power supply was replaced with a switcher, so caps wouldn't be an issue on it I assume. I am getting proper voltages at the supply, but I haven't checked rise time or voltages at various points on the board.

I did forget that.  They could be an issue if it's running like crap.  Peer in the vents and see if they're domed.   If they are replace them, or replace the PS.

Definitely check the voltages on the board. 

As to when I'll start carrying 4164 and the adapters, I'm working out a deal right now for the RAM, but I need to raise the capital for the initial purchase.  Hopefully not long.

[TheShanMan]

The microprocessor has 4.96V at pin 7, but I noticed that the reset pin, 37, is at 0.14V, so that would indicate a reset or watchdog problem, right? I want to try to figure out what's going on with those circuits, but while the manual has circuit diagrams, it's hard to follow the circuit on the board itself. I don't see anything that connects the dots from the circuit diagrams to the board.

[SirPeale]

Getting down to this level is beyond my scope at the moment.  You may want to ask about that on RGVAC.

[Level42]

The microprocessor has 4.96V at pin 7, but I noticed that the reset pin, 37, is at 0.14V, so that would indicate a reset or watchdog problem, right? I want to try to figure out what's going on with those circuits, but while the manual has circuit diagrams, it's hard to follow the circuit on the board itself. I don't see anything that connects the dots from the circuit diagrams to the board.

Use the pin numbers and follow the diagram lines to see where they go then check out the pin number there again. Now you can measure between those points.

About the reset: Is there a way to disable the watchdog ? I know Atari boards have that feature. You have to short a certain "test" point to GND to disable the watchdog.

For me, even that didn't work on my Centipede board.
(Check out my Centipede thread for the full story). The Centipede had a completely frozen screen full of garbage. Most people pointed me to either RAM or ROM problems. However, Mark Spaeth gave me the right clue. He said that it wasn't a RAM problem, because the board didn't even come to executing the first steps from the program in the ROM. Which makes sense. When a CPU starts, (almost) the first thing that it does is adress the first ROM adress and execute the code stored there. He told me my board didn't even reach that stage. So I had to look elsewhere. After trying the watchdog disable (which didn't help), I shorted a +5V point on the board (test-point) to the reset pin of the CPU. First I did it very momentarily, but it was already enough to get a frozen (but complete play field. Next I held it shorted a little longer, and the board was running (as long as I shorted the +5V to the reset pin, as soon as I released it it naturally froze again because of the reset becoming active again) ! I'm not sure if this is a safe method, but it did point me in the right direction, there was a problem within the watchdog/reset circuit itself !
Now, it takes quite a bit of time for a Williams board to start the game/program, but if you'd get (part of) a rug pattern that _could_ point into the right direction.

The thing is: when the watchdog is resetting, the problem can be almost anywhere, because the CPU crashes at some point. There could be a problem in the databus or adressbus and since those busses basically are "everywhere" on the PCB(s) (incl. the CPU itself) there's no telling what may be wrong. It takes quite some experience (and dedicated testing equipment !) to find the (if not more !) problem.

Your best bet is following the suggestions for what other people have experienced as causes for the same sort of problems.

That's why that new multi-board is such a great option. For the cost of a repair, you get a brand new board with modern technology PLUS extra games without loosing originality in game play. It's a serious "back-up" option.

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, I've been doing exactly that kind of tracing. I got the watchdog circuit disabled (there is a spot where the manual directs you to cut a trace, and then ground a pin) but it's still not booting. I haven't tried actually shorting the reset pin to 5V yet though.

One thing that seems odd to me: as I mentioned previously, my switching PS intermittently makes a fairly high pitched noise. I was just watching my monitor after disabling the watchdog circuit and this is what I saw: Black initially. Then it went solid yellow. Then as I heard the PS make that noise, the video would simultaneously flicker to solid red, but the transition from yellow to red had kind of a garbled look. The changes in the video picture would track as the PS noise came on and off. Could this be an indication of a PS problem? Do switching PS's commonly make very audible, high pitched noise?

I can try to make a video if this isn't descriptive enough to mean anything to you guys.

Yeah, the multi-board is a good backup plan, but if at all possible I'd rather stick with original hardware (in fact I wish it had the original PS).

And Peale, I've been spending a bit of time searching through the RGVAC archives. Finding some similar symptoms, but nothing that has told me definitively what the cause is.

Retro, I'm not at this point yet, but I wonder if you're willing to have a look at my boards as you've done for someone else here? That would be another nice backup plan, though I totally understand if you'd rather not.

Maybe I need to start watching CL for an o-scope! Would you guys consider this to be an essential tool for anyone who's getting into arcade game collecting? Or can you often get by without one?

[Kevin Mullins]

Do you have a CPU you can swap out ?
And you may also want to take a look at any crystals on the boards for damage etc.

[TheShanMan]

No extra CPU. The crystal's case is somewhat rusty (you can kind of see it in the close up picture of the board I posted), and I've already wondered about the clock signal. I wish I had an o-scope to check it! Beyond rust on the case, I'm not sure how I'd check for damage.

[TheShanMan]

Here's a video of what the monitor does in sync with the PS noise, as I described two posts back. I tried to pick up the noise coming from the PS, but it doesn't get picked up in the recording.

Also, this doesn't look exactly as I described before (it seems like it changes every time! ), but you get the idea with the flickering, which is in sync with the noise coming from the PS.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/lIn-8hsJN0I[/youtube]

[RetroACTIVE]

Retro, I'm not at this point yet, but I wonder if you're willing to have a look at my boards as you've done for someone else here? That would be another nice backup plan, though I totally understand if you'd rather not.

Not a problem... I'm free right now.. I've got another person's stuff but am waiting on parts... but its not a rush job.

I still think it's a power issue... your switcher looks like poo  (not that its an indication of a problem...but it certainly leaves one to wonder).  Remember the reset circuit uses +12V (unregulated)... but with switcher conversion, you are using the +12V output of your supply.  If the output of your switcher is noisy ... you are going to be SOL... Do you have an extra switcher lying around you could swap out just to be sure?  The DVOM does not give you the complete picture when it comes to the supply voltages... this is where a scope helps.

If you send your boards to me... I can do a complete once over... and upgrade to 4164 if you like.   I have a few spare 4116's kicking around I can pop in there to get it running too (if RAM becomes an issue).  As Peale stated before... the 4164 upgrade is almost a must if you want your Defender to run without issue... Running with the 4116's you will find they will begin to fail here and there and you will be chasing problems until you've replaced them all anyway...

 

[TheShanMan]

Retro, I'm suspecting the PS too, based on the noise that it makes intermittently (but often), and the way the video freaks out when it's making that noise (see video I posted).

I need to run to the auto parts store and get a fiberglass pencil so I can get things cleaned up, but once I do that, assuming that doesn't get me closer to booting up, I may be ready to ship it to you. I don't have another PS, so maybe I could include that with the boards.

I definitely want to make this reliable, so I'm totally up for replacing the ram, assuming it's not some huge expense. I'm also planning to convert to lithium batteries.

When I started this thread I thought it might not be that hard to get it up and running, but at this point this thread has gotten long without a lot of progress - the wheels are spinning but I haven't gotten far. At least I've been learning!

[TheShanMan]

With what I can do in terms of the electronics slowing, I'll turn my attention to other issues:

• CP overlay: it's pulling away from the plywood. I assume it's not a big deal to just peel it back and apply some adhesive so that it lays totally flat again? I've got spray can adhesive that I assume will work well here. The overlay is in excellent condition, btw.
• Coin door: it has some rust, so I'm planning to remove it and clean it up. BTW, it has no coin box. It would be easy enough to make a coin box, but I wonder if there are coin boxes readily available that fit defender?
• Joystick: it has some slop to it, but looking at the joystick, it appears that the leaf mechanism is what provides the springy "return to center". I'm thinking I could just disassemble the joystick and bend those leafs back to make the joystick a little more springy? Currently rather than sitting in the center position it probably sits about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom.
• Marquee light: Defenders don't have marquee lights? I don't see any evidence of there ever being a light in it. If not, that's fine because it would emphasize the minor flaws in the marquee anyway. But if they do normally have a light, then I might just have to get a new one printed from the one on localarcade.com.

[Level42]

The Defender I'm working on definitly  has the Marquee lit. (Apart from the monitor and the sound board the only thing that works ).

Of course it needs to be lit, if you want it to be original. Check the manual if it's drawn there.

I'd prefer _minor_ flaws in artwork over having a repro, let alone being it a inkjet printed one ! If you really want to replace it, look for a better one (try the KLOV forum or the Buy/Sell/Wanted section here, or e-bay) or see if there are any silk-screened repro's.

A switching PSU that whistles is usually not a good thing to happen, and in fact what keeps me from replacing original PSU's (apart from the originality). When switchers go bad, all kind of unpredictable things can happen (like frying your game PCB(s)). Even if you haven't got one around, order a new one anyway as this is probably either very bad already, or in the last stages of it's life.

[TheShanMan]

It doesn't even look like one was ever mounted there, which is why I thought there must not be one by design. Is yours a florescent I assume? The speaker in mine is kind of big so I'm not sure where the light would go. Maybe mounted to the top (I say from memory because I'm too lazy to go take the marquee off)?

Where would I buy a switching PS? Or for that matter, what about an original PS? I'd kind of like to go back to stock as much as possible, but if they're hard to come by or expensive or unreliable or something, then I'd settle for a switcher.

And what's bad about inkjet printed marquees? I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but I'm extremely happy with my overlay for my mame cabinet. My marquee isn't horrible but I know I'd be unhappy with it if I put a light behind it. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be happier with an inkjet one. But if I came across a silk screened one or an original that's in great shape, I'd be all for that too. Not sure where to look for silk screen art though.

[RetroACTIVE]

It doesn't even look like one was ever mounted there, which is why I thought there must not be one by design. Is yours a florescent I assume? The speaker in mine is kind of big so I'm not sure where the light would go. Maybe mounted to the top (I say from memory because I'm too lazy to go take the marquee off)?

Oh I'm sure it was there... check for blocking on each side of the cab... The light is mounted on a piece of galvanized steel... You could use anything that would fit and would not obstruct the speaker...

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=65938.msg715079#msg715079

Where would I buy a switching PS? Or for that matter, what about an original PS? I'd kind of like to go back to stock as much as possible, but if they're hard to come by or expensive or unreliable or something, then I'd settle for a switcher.

You can get switchers anywhere... Bob Roberts sells them.  The original power supplies are not unreliable... (contrary to the myth)... its just that most are 28-or-so ish years old and need to be rebuilt.  I think they are pretty affordable (ebay...etc) if you are prepared to do a little soldering.

And what's bad about inkjet printed marquees? I'm sure it's just ignorance on my part, but I'm extremely happy with my overlay for my mame cabinet. My marquee isn't horrible but I know I'd be unhappy with it if I put a light behind it. I can't imagine that I wouldn't be happier with an inkjet one. But if I came across a silk screened one or an original that's in great shape, I'd be all for that too. Not sure where to look for silk screen art though.

If you don't want it lit... then inkjet would be fine I suppose... but if you intend on "restoring" it then you would need to put a light back in the cab... and back-lit inkjet isn't the best.... but it's surely a matter of personal picky-ness.   Personally I'd stick with what you have...

[TheShanMan]

Not much progress today, other than some research on buying options:

• I'm thinking of buying a switcher on the assumption that mine is bad (based on some of my previous posts and responses to them). My thinking is get a switcher to get me past my power problems immediately, but also buy an original linear so I can revert back to stock. But since it will likely need some work, I don't want to just add to my list of problems! So the switcher would be a temporary solution, and it seems like it would be good to have if I'm going to be collecting a half dozen or so games over the next 2 or 3 years. Does this seem logical to you seasoned veterans?
• Since my cab is missing the marquee light, what would you guys recommend? Again, I'd like to go with an original williams light for the purpose of being stock if possible, though I'm not sure if those are easily found (I didn't see anything on ebay, but I might not be using the right search terms). If you guys have any suggested search terms or sites that might have these, let me know.
• No luck finding a fiberglass pencil today - maybe I'll try an auto body paint supply shop rather than an auto parts shop. Might just have to order online, but would prefer not to have the delay.
• Oh, back to the PS for a second - my research is leading me to believe that the coin lights maybe shouldn't be enabled when using a switcher? I definitely want to get the coin lights going, so does that mean I definitely need to go back to linear or what? Do the switchers just not put out enough juice on the 12V line or what's the issue?
• Someone mentioned replacing caps not just for the monitor but for all boards. Are there cap kits available for the other boards or do I just need to buy them individually?

[RetroACTIVE]

The switcher purchase is a fine way to help rule out power problems at the moment... you can decide later if you want to get / rebuild an original supply.

You don't need to go the "original" marquee light route... unless you can find one of course... just get the plain run-o-the-mill under counter florescent fixture... anchor it to either the top of the cab or put it on a board anchored across the two blocking strips that are on the sides of the cab (where the metal plate would go).  Whatever fits...

Well as far as the coin lamps go... you can always change out the incandescent for led... superbriteleds has some red and amber cluster 12V LED bayonet lamps that fit perfect... I did this on my Defender and it looks great... personally I think it looks better than the incandescent.

Bob Roberts sells a cap kit for the sound board... (he's busy with whats left of Gustav right now.. but will be back).  As far as the other (ROM/CPU/IO) caps they are mostly general filter caps... 25V 100uF electrolytic... the CPU has one more electrolytic on it as well (can't recall value).

 

[Neverending Project]

If you are trying to keep everything original for the sake of a complete restoration, here is my take on it...

If something like the power supply, marquee light or coins lamps went out back in the day while it was out on route, the operators would make whatever change necessary to get it back up and running. If they had switched power supplies, CFLs and LEDs, they would have probably used them because of the better performance (unless making the switch took too much time).

Regardless, making these types of upgrades do not detract from the overall meaning of the restoration. In my opinion, the boards, monitor, artwork and controls are the most important pieces to restore... What if you had to replace some wires or connectors, would you use original wires/connectors just for the sake of it - or would new connectors make more sense?

Just my .02...

[Level42]

If you are trying to keep everything original for the sake of a complete restoration, here is my take on it...

If something like the power supply, marquee light or coins lamps went out back in the day while it was out on route, the operators would make whatever change necessary to get it back up and running. If they had switched power supplies, CFLs and LEDs, they would have probably used them because of the better performance (unless making the switch took too much time).

Regardless, making these types of upgrades do not detract from the overall meaning of the restoration. In my opinion, the boards, monitor, artwork and controls are the most important pieces to restore... What if you had to replace some wires or connectors, would you use original wires/connectors just for the sake of it - or would new connectors make more sense?

Just my .02...

I agree with the message here, but I don't agree that switchers are automatically better than lineair power supplies. They have advantages for sure but also disadvantages...
Amazingly, _all_ my cabs have the original Power Supply so I didn't have to think about it, but if I'd get a cab that already had a switcher in there and was working fine, I wouldn't loose any sleep over it ...

[TheShanMan]

I'm certainly less concerned about the marquee light than I am the PS. But the switching PS looks so out of place in there, and it's super obvious that it's not stock (you can see where the PS board is supposed to mount, and it's just missing).

I'm up for original as long as it will perform as well as the alternative, it's available (not sure the light actually is), it's not much more expensive, and it's not hard to get up and running. That's my criteria. Otherwise I'm fine with alternatives.

I also do not think switchers are automatically better. They may be more efficient (from my recollection), but that's not my primary concern, and I imagine they put more noise on the output.

Thanks!

[TheShanMan]

No luck finding a fiberglass pencil today, so I guess I'll order online.

I bought an original PS off of ebay. Since it doesn't appear that rebuild kits exist anymore, does someone have a parts list for the components on the PS board? I'm hoping I can combine my pencil order with the PS components, since I'm buying from an electronics site (don't know if they have everything I need though), so hoping to get a parts list ASAP - would like to order tonight or tomorrow morning.

I may also place a Bob Roberts order tonight for the switching PS, monitor cap kit, and anything else that might make sense to get from him (suggestions?).

[SirPeale]

I'd test it first.  Other than the caps, the rest of the parts might be just fine.  I'd touch up the solder joints, replace the caps and test.  Actually, check that; I'd touch up the solder joints and test, just to see if anything smokes.

[Neverending Project]

If you check pages 36-38 of the manual (the early manual, haven't looked at the old one) there are schematics of the power supplies that show the components.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Peale for that advice - I like it. And NP, thanks for referring me to the manual. I have it, but for some reason was thinking it didn't include info on the PS.

Turns out Bob Roberts does have a PS rebuild kit. I'm placing an order with him for this stuff (can someone confirm that my monitor is a WG K4600, looking at the pictures I posted at the beginning of the thread?):

• 1 Wms Battery Conversion Kit $4.00
• 1 Wms PCB Mounting Bolts (25) $2.50
• 1 Wms Def/Star/Bub/Rob/Jou OEM PS REPAIR Kit $10.00
• 1 Wms Fuse Kit $3.00
• 1 15 Amp Standard Switching Power Supply $25.00
• 1 K4600 19" color cap kit $5.00

And I ordered a fiberglass pencil online (ugh - paid double the price for the pencil due to shipping, but then again I don't want to spend all kinds of time on the phone trying to get one locally, then the gas and time to go pick it up).

My thought is once I get the fiberglass pencil, I will clean up the boards. Hopefully then I'll have a working PS so I can see if my end result has improved. If I'm stuck, I'll proceed to take Retro up on his offer to give it a once over.

[Kevin Mullins]

Without a doubt .... that's a K4600 monitor.   

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Kevin! I searched all over the monitor, chassis, and board and couldn't find anything that appeared to be the model (or the make for that matter), and had to do some research online to figure it out, so thanks for the confirmation!

[Kevin Mullins]

Alot of times those had a sticker on the metal frame/shielding areas towards the top mounting area of the monitor.
And typically ..... they would fall off.

[Level42]

How did they connect the switcher. You may have to restore the old wiring/connectors.

[TheShanMan]

If you look at my first picture, you can see that it has the old harness there, so I think I'm good. I'm at work so I can't look at my machine in greater detail, but it looks like I can just remove the wires going to the switcher and hook the original connectors to the linear supply.

[TheShanMan]

While I wait for parts (waiting for The Real Bob Roberts to return following the Gustav evacuation) I've started on some control panel maintenance. It is quite clear that I need the joystick rebuild kit from Arcade Amusements, which runs $35 plus shipping (bummer). But at least it comes with everything except the shaft and ball (even includes the leaf springs)!

Has anyone gotten the rebuild kit before? Is it good quality? Were you fully satisfied? Does anyone else sell the kit?

Next I am going to re-glue the overlay. Haven't decided yet if I will completely remove it first, or just apply the glue to the area that has separated. Inclination is to completely remove it so I can clean the surface first (the part that has separated surely has accumulated some dirt).

[Level42]

I've never worked on a Williams CPO, but getting it off on other machines without damaging it is completely impossible.
If it's in nice enough condition (pictures look good) I'd try to re-glue the parts that came loose.

Normally it takes a heat-gun and/or some chemical stuff to get the CPO removed.

[SirPeale]

The CPO on Defenders seems to be more like the ones on a Donkey Kong than other machines, eg it's silkscreened on thick plexi instead of a flexible lexan.

[RetroACTIVE]

Be sure to call arcadeshop about that rebuild kit to verify it comes with everything but the stick.  The one I got did not....  the pic was misleading. The rebuild kit does work well...outrageously priced, but does the job.

Be careful with your cpo... originals are not very flexible so I would reccomend not trying to remove it for risk of cracking it.  I bought repro from arcadeshop and it is nothing like the original. The arcadeshop version is very very soft, almost like rubbery soft and it marks very easily... Just be careful with the one you have... its much nicer than the repro.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Retro. Appreciate the advice on the rebuild kit. And I did most of the gluing last night. My wife gave me good advice that I took: she suggested to just gently pull the separated area back enough to clean the area with a q-tip (I used goof off). I then used my all purpose spray adhesive by holding the nozzle right up to the opening between the wood and the overlay. I then just put a book on the area with some weight plates on top for a while. It seemed to work well - we'll see if it lasts.

Fortunately I don't need to even think about replacing the overlay - it's in excellent shape! Not even any damage from the joystick shaft, or any cigarette burns. Surface is PERFECT.

[TheShanMan]

Ordered the joystick rebuild kit today. The lady said it comes with everything pictured: 3 metal parts plus the 2 leaf switches.

[TheShanMan]

The Real Bob Roberts is back, and my order is initiated (as soon as my check arrives he's going to ship the parts), so I look forward to getting the stuff sometime next week. I'm excited to get moving on it!

[Level42]

The Real Bob Roberts is back, and my order is initiated (as soon as my check arrives he's going to ship the parts), so I look forward to getting the stuff sometime next week. I'm excited to get moving on it!

Great news ! Everything OK with Bob ?

B.t.w. his site still says Temp.closed.

O, and there's a great deal on 4164's on the KLOV forum:
http://forums.webmagic.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=2&Number=876481&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

[TheShanMan]

So the gluing of the overlay seems to be going well. I decided not to peel the whole thing off, so I'm doing one bit at a time, without removing the buttons or joystick. I'm just about done though - one corner left to glue tonight. It's nice to see the overlay laying flat!

So I see that one of the buttons on the panel should be green. Was there ALWAYS a green button on the defender panels originally, or did it depend on when it was manufactured? If they were always green from the factory, then I'd like to get a green button. But I figure I'd rather get a used one so it doesn't stand out among the other 28 year old buttons. Anyone know where I might be able to find one? Or should I just post a request in BST?

[RetroACTIVE]

So I see that one of the buttons on the panel should be green. Was there ALWAYS a green button on the defender panels originally, or did it depend on when it was manufactured? If they were always green from the factory, then I'd like to get a green button. But I figure I'd rather get a used one so it doesn't stand out among the other 28 year old buttons. Anyone know where I might be able to find one? Or should I just post a request in BST?

SmartBomb = green
1P & 2P = red
All others = white

 

PS: I think I have the old grody one that was on my panel prior to me restoring... I'll look for it... you can have it if you like.

[TheShanMan]

Appreciate that, Retro! I'm planning on cleaning up my buttons. They don't look horrible but definitely used. I assume they'll clean up somewhat, but at this point I don't intend to replace them with new ones. I assume your green one isn't in HORRIBLE shape but just kind of dingy and 28 years old. I wonder if using steel wool on the buttons would be a good idea???

And thanks a bunch to Level42! I just paid for a set of 4164 on your suggestion. And as a consequence I just ordered Peale's adapter. Was hoping to order ram from Peale since he's been so kind in helping me out here, but since I want to get this running ASAP, I decided to get this ram now.

That means everything I know I need to try to get this running well is on order. So it shouldn't be long before I'm working diligently on it. And that also means it might not be long before I take Retro up on his offer to get the board running for me, if I have trouble. But I'm optimistic, so hopefully it won't come down to that.

[TheShanMan]

My original PS came in the mail today (via ebay). Looks to be in good shape other than the missing rectifier and fuse. Hopefully it will be easy to get running with my PS rebuild kit that I should be getting next week.

[TheShanMan]

How did they connect the switcher. You may have to restore the old wiring/connectors.

Well now that I can actually put an original PS board in there, I realize I was only thinking about half of it: the connector coming from the transformer is there, but the connector going to the cpu/video board isn't (since they now connect to the switcher).

So I guess I need to redo a connector for it. Any suggestions on where I ought to get the connector parts, and precisely what it is I need? Probably not hard to get I imagine, but a good recommendation would be appreciated, especially from a place that would likely have low shipping rates for something so small - it might end up being the only thing in the order.

[Kevin Mullins]

I'd shoot an e-mail over to Bob Roberts ...... heck, he might even include it in your other order if it hasn't shipped out yet.

[TheShanMan]

Great suggestion Kevin, however, Bob is too fast for me! He shipped my order yesterday simply on my word that I sent the check, and I'm a new customer! That's some awesome service! Here I thought I'd be getting my stuff next week, and instead he replies back and says look for it tomorrow!

So I guess I'll either have to order it from Mouser, or put in another order with Bob. I think I'll hold off until I discover if there's more stuff I need to buy, and then I'll know where to order everything at the same time. Bob's sending me a switcher, so I can use that until I'm ready to rebuild my original PS.

In other news... I bought a marquee from quarterarcade.com today. Mine was in good condition, but had cracks in the red and other minor flaws, so it wouldn't have looked great with a backlight (backlight doesn't exist yet). A bit expensive at $28 plus shipping, but they rated it a 4 star out of 5, so by their definition of 4 stars, I should be quite happy with it when backlit.

I did bid on an ebay marquee, but the picture wasn't high resolution and the description wasn't detailed. It looked good, but the lady wouldn't provide more info or pics, so I didn't bid enough to win. The funny thing is, I contacted her after to say how much more I was willing to bid if only it had a higher resolution pic, and she totally dumped on me about her current life issues as an explanation why it wasn't worth it to her to do more than she did (I didn't ask for an explanation). As a business, I figured she might find the feedback helpful (or she could ignore it for all I cared), but apparently she didn't appreciate it at all.

[beerbarrel]

Shanman,

Would you do me a favor and see if there is a jumper wire above the sandcast power resistor that is located between the fuses and connector?

Thanks,
Tracy

[beerbarrel]

One more thing, I looked at my PS under a magnifying glass and just about all the solder pads that are around the connector pins and bad. You might want to take a close look at yours.

Tracy

[TheShanMan]

I don't see any jumper. Everything looks kosher on the board except for the missing rectifier. I'll have a closer look, but on first glance the board appears to be in excellent condition.

[beerbarrel]

I don't know that the jumper really matters. It just shorts across the 2 ohm resistor. My supply came out of a cock tail version. Looking at the schematic it shows a jumper and there is a note that says the jumper is not used on the CT version. Mine is there but it is cut in the middle.

Tracy

[TheShanMan]

Interesting. I'll have to look at the schematic when I work on it. Sounds like you're saying it should have the jumper for the uprights. Thanks for raising the issue. BTW, I'd be interested in seeing a pic of yours, since as far as I could tell, there was no evidence of a jumper being on the board, and I'd like to see what it looks like, even if yours is cut. You could post it in your thread if you prefer since of course I'm following your restoration too.

[beerbarrel]

Here ya go! My big cap is removed. Can you see the jumper?

[TheShanMan]

Yep. I see it. Thanks!

[RetroACTIVE]

I don't know that the jumper really matters. It just shorts across the 2 ohm resistor. My supply came out of a cock tail version. Looking at the schematic it shows a jumper and there is a note that says the jumper is not used on the CT version. Mine is there but it is cut in the middle.

Tracy

If I had to venture a guess as to the need for the jumper it would be due to the fact that the cocktail version has more "general illumination" (lamps under the buttons etc...).  With the jumper in, more load is expected (more lamps).  In the upright case there are only the coin door lamps, so adding the load resistor keeps the voltage level at the appropriate level...

[TheShanMan]

Got my package from Bob as well as my fiberglass pencil. Hooked up the new switcher, and while it doesn't make the loud noise that the old one did, it doesn't change what happens when I power on the unit.

So this weekend I will be cleaning contacts with the fiberglass pencil!

[RetroACTIVE]

Got my package from Bob as well as my fiberglass pencil. Hooked up the new switcher, and while it doesn't make the loud noise that the old one did, it doesn't change what happens when I power on the unit.

So this weekend I will be cleaning contacts with the fiberglass pencil!

Now you don't have to be concerned with the PSU... an can just focus on other issues. 

[TheShanMan]

So I've started working on the connector pins and chip pins with the fiberglass pencil. How do you know if you've rubbed the pins enough? I was assuming that it was abrasive enough that the pins would get shiny, almost like new. But that doesn't seem to be happening, so I wonder if what I'm doing is effective or if I'm not doing it long enough or something. Peale (or anyone else), could you perhaps describe in some detail how you use the pencil, how long you do it for, how you know that you've finished the job, or anything else that might help a noob?

[SirPeale]

They'll never be shiny-shiny.  If they're black, do it until they're clean.  If they're super-dull, do it until they're not so dull anymore.  But be careful.

Now that you've replaced your PS, feel the RAM chips.  Are any of them hot?  Like *really* hot?  Might take a few seconds.

How about the lights on the ROM board, what are they doing?

[beerbarrel]

Peale,

Do folks not use stuff like deoxit to clean contacts?

They'll never be shiny-shiny.  If they're black, do it until they're clean.  If they're super-dull, do it until they're not so dull anymore.  But be careful.

Now that you've replaced your PS, feel the RAM chips.  Are any of them hot?  Like *really* hot?  Might take a few seconds.

How about the lights on the ROM board, what are they doing?

[SirPeale]

*shrug* depends on the application.  I don't have any personally, and the pencil has worked really well for me.  Plus it's cheap.

[beerbarrel]

Shanman..

After looking at the schematic again, that jumper is supposed to be cut on the upright not on the cocktail. Mine came from a cocktail and it was cut....go figure!

[TheShanMan]

They'll never be shiny-shiny.  If they're black, do it until they're clean.  If they're super-dull, do it until they're not so dull anymore.  But be careful.

It's actually hard to tell if any change occurs after using the pencil, but I spent about 20 minutes going over all the socketed chips except the RAM (since I'll be replacing it very soon anyway). I also did the connector pins.

Now that you've replaced your PS, feel the RAM chips.  Are any of them hot?  Like *really* hot?  Might take a few seconds.

None of them are hot.

How about the lights on the ROM board, what are they doing?

Still all remain on.

Next I need to use the pencil on the ROM chips. Solder joints all look fine on the main board, including connector solder joints.

I still wonder if I have a bad clock - maybe the somewhat rusty crystal is bad? Unless I can find a reasonably priced scope soon, it will be hard to check this, so I might be running out of things I can try before shipping the boards off to Retro.

[gloogun]

Just a thought, but I have that same switching power supply in a Defender cab I picked up last week. In mine the original PS is still in place and hooked up to the transformer assembly via the 4JI connector. The new SPS is just installed right next to it and hooked up to the transformer with a couple of new blue wires. The guy that sold it to me told me it needed to be that way otherwise you'd have problems with the video. I didn't argue, but maybe someone on this board knows better....

[beerbarrel]

Mine currently has a switcher and works great. I'm planning on putting the linear back in though.

Tracy

[TheShanMan]

I got my joystick rebuild kit today. The joystick shaft doesn't fit as tightly as I'd like, but that's not the fault of the rebuild kit since it doesn't come with the shaft. I wrapped it with a little teflon tape to make it a tighter fit - not sure if that will last long term, but at least for now it fits tightly. Other than that, the slop is gone. Very expensive ($35 + $9 shipping - man, has shipping gotten expensive or what?!), but for me it was worth it. The slop was bad before.

Hopefully tonight I'll get a chance to clean up the rom board.

Hey Peale, when do you think I should expect my ram adapter to arrive? I got my ram yesterday, so I'm looking forward to trying that out in the off chance that the ram is causing problems for me.

[SirPeale]

Sorry...I ran into a little "problem" over the weekend.  I'll have your adapter out tomorrow.

[TheShanMan]

Sorry...I ran into a little "problem" over the weekend.  I'll have your adapter out tomorrow.

Bummer. I though it would be here by now. Thanks for getting that taken care of!

I got the ROM board all cleaned up today and I was kind of hopeful that it would do better on power up due to some corrosion I found, but no such luck. So I'll wait for Peale's adapter and try my new RAM as my last resort.

[SirPeale]

The adapter is on its way.  Make sure you get the empty key pin in the correct position.  It may fit a bit snugly.

If you have any other questions, let me know.

[TheShanMan]

Thankfully USPS got your adapter here in a hurry Peale! In time for me to try out the ram over the weekend. Thanks Peale!

Also, yesterday I got a marquee from quarterarcade.com. Mine looks great when not backlit, but it definitely won't look good backlit, hence buying one from QA. They rated it 4 out of 5 stars, and it definitely is a 4 - very nice! Expensive (I think it was $38 shipped), but what are you gonna do?

So I might sell my old marquee to someone who wants to frame it or something. It had a fair amount of cracking in the red areas particularly, which was made worse when I stupidly tried to gently clean the back side! I "repaired" it by filling in all areas with paint. Now it looks great, but since the thickness of my paint doesn't equal the thickness of the silkscreen paint, my paint globs stand out like a sore thumb when backlit! So anyway, I might get around to posting it in BST. But feel free to contact me if you're interested in it - I'll let it go for cheap since it can't be backlit.

[Level42]

I received my RAMs yesterday. That was a great deal. I even got some spares I think (weren't they sold by the 25 ?). I bought 3 sets.

Great guy to deal with, even paid back 5 bucks because shipping it here was less expensive than he'd thought..... I appreciate honest people like that, thankfully the vast majority of people in this hobby are like that. Will takes some time until I can install them on my friend's Defender and Sinistar. I guess I'll just do the board mod. It's so simple.

[TheShanMan]

I didn't get a chance over the weekend to install my 4164 ram chips and peale's power adapter due to my wife's 40th b-day, but I did tonight, and as I figured it made no difference with startup. So I'm officially out of things I think I'm capable of doing to diagnose based on the suggestions I've received thus far.

And that means... Retro, are you still willing to have a crack at my boards? If so, could you please PM me your address and any specific details you want to make sure I handle? I figure I'll send you my cpu/video board and rom board, and maybe include my old 4116's if you want??? I could include my sound and input boards, but I would think the odds of one of those boards causing my problems is extremely low (the sound board's diagnostic mode does work).

I've done everything I can think of to minimize the work you might have to deal with (so you don't say "why the heck couldn't he have done this before sending it to me?!"). Hopefully you can figure it out with minimal effort!

[SirPeale]

All the LEDs on the ROM board still remain lit?

[TheShanMan]

Yes.

[RetroACTIVE]

PM sent

Send all your boards if you can 

[beerbarrel]

Do you mind updating us through the thread as to what you do to fix it?

thanks,
Tracy

[RetroACTIVE]

Do you mind updating us through the thread as to what you do to fix it?

thanks,
Tracy

Absolutely!

[SirPeale]

Great, because I have a spare Defender boardset that I cobbled together that doesn't work, that also has all four LEDs lit.

[Neverending Project]

So I'm officially out of things I think I'm capable of doing to diagnose based on the suggestions I've received thus far.

Did you try adjusting the flux capacitor? Is it fluxing?

[beerbarrel]

Did u get your boards sent off? I hope so! It's disappointing not reading the daily responses to this thread. 

[TheShanMan]

In the mail. I can't get this thing working soon enough, so believe me, waiting around is hard for me too!

[RetroACTIVE]

I'll get working on them as soon as they arrive.

[TheShanMan]

I don't mean to make you feel rushed! You're doing me a favor so I'm at your mercy. I'm excited to get it back so I can start playing my first dedicated cab, but I know you've got a life outside of my boards.

[RetroACTIVE]

I don't mean to make you feel rushed! You're doing me a favor so I'm at your mercy. I'm excited to get it back so I can start playing my first dedicated cab, but I know you've got a life outside of my boards.

I don't feel rushed at all and you never made me feel that way... so no sweat at all!  Usually I can get these things turned around in a week or so... (if they aren't totally boogered up  ).  I'm excited too... I like getting these things fixed!

[DP Louie]

Sorry, posted in wrong topic! 

[RetroACTIVE]

Received boards today... done some preliminaries... will let you know more on Sunday.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks Retro! I'd be curious to know what you think generally about the condition of the boards too.

Looking forward to Sunday.

And on another note, got my T-molding yesterday.

[RetroACTIVE]

Ok... There are a couple of issues... So far we have:

1. Bad ROM(s)... I have not isolated the exact one.  I checked the ROM board with a known good ROM set and a good CPU.. and had no problems. The ROMs are very fragile as the are heavily corroded and should be replaced regardless.

2. IC 5O (LS393) on the CPU is fried... All the outputs are low and its smoking hot.  I'm going to replace it and retest.

 

[SirPeale]

Excellent.  Well...not excellent that there are problems, but good you found what they are.  I've been eagerly awaiting your post.

Possible to clean the legs on the ROM chips?  Replacing them is certainly necessary, but perhaps he could limp along for a bit with cleaned ones?

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, I was kind of unimpressed by the job that the fiberglass pencil did (and yes, I did clean the rom chips). I imagine it helped, but I was expecting the "after" to be much better than the "before". Hopefully the ROM's aren't too expensive. I didn't see defender roms listed at hobbyroms.com, and it wasn't clear to me from looking at that site if the prices listed were for entire sets or individual roms or what. In other words, I wondered if I'd be paying about the price listed for a whole set, or that price times 11. If you think they all ought to be replaced, I'll proceed with that plan. I'll contact him to see what a set will run me. Would you prefer that I have them shipped to you? Or should I have them shipped to me, and you'll just ship my boards back since you already know that's the issue?

Interesting that you found a chip that was so hot. At one point I touched every chip on the cpu/video board and not one chip was hot.

So what does "no problems" mean? Are you suggesting that the game booted up with no apparent symptoms? If that one chip wasn't working, wouldn't there be noticeable symptoms?

Thanks so much for your help - I can't say that enough.

[RetroACTIVE]

Excellent.  Well...not excellent that there are problems, but good you found what they are.  I've been eagerly awaiting your post.

Possible to clean the legs on the ROM chips?  Replacing them is certainly necessary, but perhaps he could limp along for a bit with cleaned ones?

Well the legs are just about falling off on some ROMs... they are just about beyond saving...  and would become an issue even if they weren't faulty to begin with.

[RetroACTIVE]

Your ROM board is fine.. It functions perfectly in a known good system.  With a good set of ROMs, your ROM board is good to go. ... your CPU has the faulty IC... I will replace it tomorrow and see what goes.

[TheShanMan]

OK, gotcha. I was thinking you tried my complete board set.

[Neverending Project]

 

It's always great to see progress being made. Nice job.

[TheShanMan]

As you can imagine, I'm super excited about progress! I didn't buy it to have it collect dust in the garage.

Ordered a new rom set from hobbyroms.com this morning. $40 shipped is a much better price than I was fearing it would be.

Got a little advice from Retro on what to look for in an oscilloscope. I want to get one so I can graduate to diagnosing board problems myself since I'll definitely be buying more arcade games. Back in the day, I was an embedded systems guy (hardware and software), but last time I did that was over 10 years ago so I'm quite rusty on this stuff, and haven't been sure what to look for in an o-scope. I'm excited to get the scope and get my next game (and almost WANT it to not be working!) so I can get busy with some hardware troubleshooting. I'm happy as a windows software engineer, but I do miss hardware, and this is a good opportunity to satisfy some of that craving.

[beerbarrel]

I did not see those roms on his site. Did you have to ask for them?

[TheShanMan]

Yeah, you might have noticed that it says they have more than what's listed. Shoot 'em an email and they'll give you a quote.

[RetroACTIVE]

Well unfortunately I have no 393s in stock... so the first round of CPU fixes will have to wait a bit.  In the mean time I will replace all electrolytics (CPU, Sound, ROM and I/O), install the lithium upgrade and a few other tidy up type things.

[Mauzy]

As you can imagine, I'm super excited about progress! I didn't buy it to have it collect dust in the garage.

Ordered a new rom set from hobbyroms.com this morning. $40 shipped is a much better price than I was fearing it would be.

Got a little advice from Retro on what to look for in an oscilloscope. I want to get one so I can graduate to diagnosing board problems myself since I'll definitely be buying more arcade games. Back in the day, I was an embedded systems guy (hardware and software), but last time I did that was over 10 years ago so I'm quite rusty on this stuff, and haven't been sure what to look for in an o-scope. I'm excited to get the scope and get my next game (and almost WANT it to not be working!) so I can get busy with some hardware troubleshooting. I'm happy as a windows software engineer, but I do miss hardware, and this is a good opportunity to satisfy some of that craving.

Is this shareable information? Im also wanting to get into board work (gonna go to college to be an Electrical Engineer. Might as well star a little early...)

[TheShanMan]

Awesome! I loved my EE college program. It wasn't a dislike for hardware that caused my career shift. It was just liking windows software development more. So I hope it goes well for you. Stay focused!

And of course it's shareable:

25MHz or better 2 channel Tektronics.... can't go wrong.  I borrow a portable LCD digital nice for debug in cab... but the good old fashioned CRT Tek is great for the bench.  Ebay or Craigs is fine 200 bucks tops with probes.

Hope this helps
Jim

[Mauzy]

Awesome! I loved my EE college program. It wasn't a dislike for hardware that caused my career shift. It was just liking windows software development more. So I hope it goes well for you. Stay focused!

And of course it's shareable:

25MHz or better 2 channel Tektronics.... can't go wrong.  I borrow a portable LCD digital nice for debug in cab... but the good old fashioned CRT Tek is great for the bench.  Ebay or Craigs is fine 200 bucks tops with probes.

Hope this helps
Jim

Cool. Ill keep my eyes out for something along those lines. I've tried my hand at software. Granted it wasn't anything sophisticated, but I seem to prefer something I can hold in my hands. That and all that text was hell on my eyes. Definitely can't have one without the other though!

[Neverending Project]

...I'm excited to get the scope and get my next game (and almost WANT it to not be working!) so I can get busy with some hardware troubleshooting. I'm happy as a windows software engineer, but I do miss hardware, and this is a good opportunity to satisfy some of that craving.

Well, it just so happens that I have a System II cabinet with some video PCB problems that are just begging for some "probing". It's a win-win situation... you get to buy a scope, learn how to use it, and get practical experience on debugging an actual PCB - I get my game working. 

[TheShanMan]

Have a cab you want to trade me for my services?

[RetroACTIVE]

Just a quick update...

Got the replacement IC installed... but that wasn't the only thing wrong...  Also found a bad 74153 so I replaced them all (4) since they were of the same date code.  Now when the unit comes up I get the distinct color bars with some rug artifacts... its no longer a white screen of bars... I'm actually seeing color... this is a good thing... not working yet... but a definite improvement.

- Watchdog circuit fixed.
- Reset circuitry checked out ok...
- The 12MHz, 6 MHz and 4 MHz clocks are working as they should.
- Not sure about the color RAM but I think its fine... (besides that would not cause this latest behavior)
- Appears as if the Data bus is corrupted (video RAM side), I've yet to check out the LS374 latches on the RAM address bus to prove this... but this seems highly probable

 

[TheShanMan]

Man, there's a lot going on with this board! I'm glad I sent it in as I probably wouldn't have had much hope figuring out all of these issues.

At least my suspicion that there was a watchdog problem was right.

Excited to see the progress, and as always, I appreciate what you're doing!

[RetroACTIVE]

I believe I confirmed my suspicions with the 374's this evening... I ordered a couple of tubes of them earlier this week and they should be here by now  .... anyway when they come in... I'll let  you know the prognosis ... I'm hoping this is it.  The last thing to worry is the CMOS RAM... I don't want to remove it until I'm sure it needs to be fixed... that will come after the board is actually running of course.

Also got replacement ROMs yesterday... left the ROM board at the office DOH!... so I didn't get to test them until this evening.

Sorry this has taken so long... had a couple of project deadlines at work and I was quite low on parts as I've fixed a few of these things and have not restocked in a while...  I also decided to replace a few questionable IC's (rusty,crusty,...etc)... this board sat in a barn for 8 years and I believe moisture got the best of it... so I tried to clean things up as best as possible.

However... I'm thinking just about done with this old fellow....
 

[TheShanMan]

Retro reported to me that 2 of the new ROM's were bad, so we gotta wait for those 2 to get resent.

Even though I'm overloaded with other projects right now, I felt a compulsion to get a little work done on the defender today. Installed my new t-molding and vacuumed it out really good. I still need to replace the front lower particle board panel that has moisture damage, and I need to clean up and touch up the artwork. It's in good condition for 28 years old so I don't think I'll be completely repainting, other than the top and back since they're straight black, and don't look nearly as good as the sides.

Bummed about the delay caused by the bad ROM's because Retro seems to be so close to done, and I'm itching to play. But a few more days won't kill me, especially when I have some stuff I need to do on my '66 mustang (my other time sink of a hobby).

Oh, one other bummer. I never looked closely at the coin mechs, but there is only one complete mech, and I wonder if it even works as is - I know the PO had it on free play and there's no coin box. It's taken a hit from moisture too, so at the very least I'm going to have to take it all apart and clean it up. Anyone know how hard it is to get a williams coin mech? I'd like to get 2 working. I understand the middle one was actually used for Susan B. Anthony dollars, and mine is blocked - I imagine it became fairly standard to have the middle one blocked as those dollars became less common?

[SirPeale]

They're just regular coin mechs.  I've got a bunch of quarter mechs for you.  $5.00 each.

[TheShanMan]

Cool! I don't know how many you have, but unless you are low enough that you might run out, I'll wait until I can get my existing mech cleaned up and tested before I buy, so I know if I need 1 or 2.

I don't know if my mech is token or quarter, but I actually would want to convert to tokens. Can these be converted or would I have to buy other mechs? I checked the "convert coin mechs to tokens" thread and I don't think these mechs are there.

[RetroACTIVE]

HOLY CRAP!  This board is full of problems...

The good news is that it now starts up... rug pattern is there... and it goes into the attract mode (at least you can tell by the smattering of pixels)... but it still is not completely up yet!

The bad 374s were the remaining problem holding up the start up sequence and keeping all 4 status leds on on the ROM board...

Now I believe its the 165's (video shift register circuitry) that is screwing up the works....

This is with out a doubt the most messed up board I've dealt with in a while... its not obvious like massive corrosion or physical damage.. or typical easy failures... but many many parts are faulty on this bad boy...

... almost there
 

[TheShanMan]

Oh my gosh. I would have been way over my head if I had persisted in trying to fix it myself! You're a God-send, Retro!

[RetroACTIVE]

Well ALRIGHTY THEN!  Its done!

- All inputs and sounds check out.
- CMOS passes CMOS test... (I've not yet put the battery in and saved  a high score... )
- The last thing was the 74LS139 (1 of 4 decoder)... keep an eye out for failures where it looks like the rug pattern twinkles and the attract screen has very little data on it (I could barely see the bottom of the Defender text flashing)... this behavior is indicitive of the 139 failure.

I will put the battery in and see if it retains scores\coinage... I think it will be ok... I'm feeling good now!
I will run a full blown burn in (24 hrs) with entire ROM set before I say good to go back to TheShanMan!

[TheShanMan]

I am very excited! I'm sure you'll be happy to be rid of it - you probably would have never guessed that you'd be in for all of this when you expressed willingness to work on it. I assume you don't have a tracking # for the 2 replacement roms, but I guess we should cross our fingers for them to arrive by the weekend. It would be too cool if I actually get to start playing 2 weekends from now!

I hate to keep saying this over and over, but thank you so much!!! I hope it won't be long before my abilities will be good enough that I can give back to the community in a similar way.

[TheShanMan]

How does one adjust the joystick's action? I installed a rebuild kit and the joystick just seems AWFULLY springy. Seems like it should be stiffer or the springiness needs to be dampened or something.

EDIT: Here's a video to demonstrate.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/v/soGBuU3J2wQ[/youtube]

[SirPeale]

Looks good to me.  At least you have that.  Mine is loose and sloppy.

[meany]

Looks like I remember it in the arcades.

[beerbarrel]

Looks good to me.  At least you have that.  Mine is loose and sloppy.

Mine is loose and sloppy too!

[TheShanMan]

OK, cool. As much as I always liked it, I rarely played it in the arcades because of the difficulty (I didn't have THAT many quarters to burn!). So I don't even have a memory of how it was back then. Thanks for the feedback guys!

[RetroACTIVE]

Ok... I still have TheShanMan's Defender boards... but they will be returning to him tomorrow...

His boards were plagued with problems... so this took a while

Initial Symptom:  White screen, board was held in reset and all 4 leds on the ROM board stay on.

#1 Tested the ROM board with known good defender CPU... no dice.  Beyond physical corrosion, many of the ROM chips were bad.  A new set was installed... ROM board tested ok...(as it seemed...ribbon cable bites us later)

#2 The Watchdog circuit was faulty, holding the board in reset.  This turned out to bad IC 5O (LS393).

#3 After fixing watchdog, no change in behavior... Observed IC 3G (LS153)... outputs appeared to be not quite at 5 v... so I replaced all of the 153s.  Now the bars are no longer pure white... there are multicolored rug artifacts but still distinct bars.

#4 Video RAM data bus is corrupted, IC 1M (LS374).  I replaced all of them (1M,3M,4M)... and BINGO!  Now all of the leds go out and the game behaves like its going into attract mode... but the attract mode is screwed up.

#5 Bad IC 4K (LS139) (2 to 4 Line Decoder), causes this weird twinkling effect on the rug pattern and the attract screen to be missing nearly all of the graphics... except the bottom of the word DEFENDER... and I mean the bottom, I only know thats what it is by its blinking effect. 

#6 Long term test proved system to be unreliable, the board locked up and after cycling power, I could not get it to come up reliably each time... I replaced the ribbon header on the ROM board and this solved the issue.

#7 I was also concerned about the CPU and Decoder ROM sockets, so I went ahead and replaced them for good measure.

Other things done:
Installed lithium kit, replaced all electrolytic caps, replaced 20 pin I/O header and cleaned up the boards in general.

This was fun... a bit wicked... but fun none the less.  A big thanks to TheShanMan for being patient and understanding, its hard fitting this stuff into day to day life.  Another good thing is I know have enough parts to help save plenty more Defenders!

 
Jim

[TheShanMan]

Is this guy awesome or what? No need to thank me for being "patient and understanding" - how can someone complain with you being so generous with your time and ability? I'm just thankful that you enjoyed it, because I feel bad enough about how this project became much more difficult than we figured it would.

Hey, at least I correctly guessed that my board was stuck in reset! I would have been WAY over my head trying to repair this myself, despite being an embedded systems engineer early in my career. But this process has helped me just about as much as you could possibly hope without being physically present, so whenever I do encounter a real non-working game I will at least feel more comfortable tackling it. And you have certainly inspired me in that respect, Jim!

Of course, this will also make me more discriminating when it comes to buying games with apparent moisture or corrosion issues!

Thanks so much Jim. Can't wait to play Defender!

Restoration will continue after I get the boards back. Still plenty to do on this prized possession!

[RetroACTIVE]

Well... I win the ---meecrob----bag-of-the-year award... I sent the boards back to TheShanMan and forgot to put his 4164 adapter back in the box!  So here he is excited and ready to go... and then  dummy forgets to put everything back in the box!

...this guy.... not so awesome 

[TheShanMan]

No, you're too hard on yourself! With all the stuff of mine that you had, it's no surprise that something so little got overlooked. Remember when I PM'ed you a checklist of items to help prevent this very situation? Well, I forgot to include the adapter in that checklist, so I'll take some of the fault too.

So don't anyone let this guy convince you that he's anything less than awesome, because I certainly think he's awesome for what he's done for me, and this minor glitch doesn't knock my opinion of him in the slightest.

[SirPeale]

That's the one I made for you, right?  Both you guys handled it, how does it feel?  Still in one piece?

[TheShanMan]

Yes. Seemed to be perfectly fine to me, given the limited amount of time I messed with it before shipping my boards off to Jim.

[RetroACTIVE]

That's the one I made for you, right?  Both you guys handled it, how does it feel?  Still in one piece?

I like it... way better than using wires.   What kind of header/housing did you use..amp or molex?  The ones I use have a more severe locking mech and are very difficult to unplug... I like the ones you use, they are just right.

[SirPeale]

It's a Molex header with pins from ITW.  It's pretty compact.  I expanded on previous ideas and came up with that design.

[TheShanMan]

While reinstalling my boards, and since I can't play it yet , I figured I'd clean up the power supply board. Well, the transformer part of it. It had a switcher in and no PS PCB when I bought it, so these pictures reflect that. I've bought a PS PCB off of ebay that I'll get rebuilt and installed so I don't need to use a switcher any more, but that's a project for another day.

How do you guys like the before vs. after? A little better? 

BTW, I decided not to paint the particle board because although you can't see it in the pics here (my full size pics show it), there is a "TESTED" stamp and a "JUN 26 1981" stamp on there. I like seeing that on there.

[SirPeale]

It's cleaner!

In the interim while you're waiting for that adapter to arrive, you can pull the wires not used out of the harness and wrap them with electrical tape.  Easy to pull out, you just need a tiny flat bladed jewelers screwdriver.

[TheShanMan]

In the interim while you're waiting for that adapter to arrive, you can pull the wires not used out of the harness and wrap them with electrical tape.  Easy to pull out, you just need a tiny flat bladed jewelers screwdriver.

Do you mean since they're no longer used, disconnect them to avoid the possibility of frying my 4164's if the harness gets plugged in without the adapter? Sounds like a good idea, though I'll wait until I get the adapter so it's clear which wires I no longer need. And actually, why not just totally remove the wires from the cab, rather than just wrapping the one end with electrical tape?

So for some insane reason I decided to also take on the lower particle board panel that is so moisture damaged. I figured I'd take it out and slap in a new board, but that is not an easy board to get out! I ended up deciding to just sand the darn thing until smooth, and I'm happy with the result, although it made a huge paint dust mess that I now need to clean up!

I still need to pick up some paint and paint it. I plan to use a foam roller (any reason not to? seems like the best approach to me).

Here's the before and after. Well, kind of. I didn't remember to take the before until mid way through. But it shows you what it was like before.

[RetroACTIVE]

Yeah.. I took mine apart.  Those panels are rabbeted, glued and stapled.  The only way to remove the front is to take the bottom rear, bottom, front coin door panel and coin box shelf.... so keeping it in place was a good move  Mine had lots of water damage and mildew so I had no choice.

[RayB]

OH so its supposed to be mounted on the side... good to know!

[TheShanMan]

Well, time for an update. I've been reluctant to update because I'm still having problems, and I don't want anyone thinking that RetroACTIVE has done anything less than an awesome job! I think my boards are possessed, and I think RA would probably agree. He had problem after problem after problem after problem. Now, RA has made me several proposals, each of which would get my boards fixed for good, at NO cost to me! And he has been quite insistent about it. So not only do I admire his skills, but he's surely one of the most generous, if not THE most generous members of this community in my book. The only reason I haven't taken him up on his offer is because I want to have some of the fun - I need to learn these skills, and I want to know my defender boards better! So for the time being I'm hanging on to them and we'll see how far I can get, with continual communication with RA for assistance (thanks RA!).

End disclaimer.

So I have 2 problems. The most serious is that red doesn't work. I did a bunch of testing around that assumption and seemed to be confirming it, and the signs pointed to possibly a bad transistor for the red channel. Swapped it with the green transistor and no luck. Then I swapped the wires running to the monitor (red and blue). That's where things get strange and confusing for me. Before, the red test page would be black, green green, and blue blue (i.e. only red was failing). This time red and blue were both black. I was expecting the blue page to be red since I swapped the wires! What the?!

So that got me to pay a little more attention to the other color test pages (after putting the wires back to normal), and guess what? I can see white and black (and of course blue and green). How would I see white if it's comprised of red, blue, and green???

So I have no idea what to think, beyond the guess that it's a logic problem rather than a problem in the color output circuitry or monitor circuitry. I am eagerly waiting for RA's input. Anyone else feel free to chime in.

The other problem: rom failure on boot (rom 9). However, this problem goes away after warming up. RA is convinced it has something to do with the ribbon cable, especially since it gave him such fits. But no matter how I press or pull on it during boot, no change. So unless someone has some ideas here, I will ultimately take RA up on his offer to send it back for more fixing. However, if I can just get the red to work, I'll live with the warm up problem for now just so I can finally play it for a while!

[TheShanMan]

After a little discussion with RA, decided it was best to ship it back to him, and being the great guy that he is, he was more than willing to do that (heck, he wanted to pay my shipping, but no way - I don't want him eating extra cost when he's doing me a favor in the first place!). Sent it yesterday, should be there Saturday. Hopefully the fix is easy for him and he can turn it around quickly to get it out of his hair once and for all!

Now that I don't have to deal with the board problems, I can get back to painting the straight black panels and touching up the artwork panels where needed, and need to work on the coin door too.

Got a coin bucket off of ebay. Dirty as heck, but otherwise nice.

[RetroACTIVE]

I have a brand spanky new green button, rectifier and ribbon cable assembly with your name on it

[TheShanMan]

I have a brand spanky new green button, rectifier and ribbon cable assembly with your name on it

Ha ha. Cool. The equivalent rectifier at Fry's was like 8.40. Probably over priced, but I'm sure it's more than just spare change for you. So be sure to tell me how much more for the parts (and anything else you decide you need).

When I got the notification that you posted I thought "did the boards arrive already?". Wishful thinking though. Should be 2 or 3 more days.

[TheShanMan]

Finished painting the lower front panel. Certainly no mirror finish, and with glossy paint the flash certainly draws attention to it's lack of mirror-ness, but it is good enough for me. Looks much better than before. I'm painting the top and back too right now, and when I get done with that I'll work on touch ups of the artwork panels.

Also cleaned up my coin box and took pictures. I notice that the box has 2 little slots in the front and back. Looks like this was to divide the coins from the 3 mechs? Dollars isolated in the middle and quarters on the 2 sides? Anyone actually have these dividers? Not that I need them, but I'm just curious after noticing the slots.

[RetroACTIVE]

I had a chance to test the CPU board... both color RAMs were bad... 2C (RED/GRN) was dead dead. RAM 1C (GRN/BLUE) was also faulty, but not completely out as the color was good but faint black stripes on the color test screens were visible.  When I sent the board off to you originally it did not have these obvious faults (I would have caught it... I would have had to had my eyes closed to miss this)...this was just a case of bad luck.

Gotta love 28+ yr old electronics that sit in a barn for a few years... never know whats going to turn up next.

 

[TheShanMan]

Got the boards back from RA today (that guy is awesome). It works!!!!!!!!!! Now to adjust the leaf switches, hook the florescent light up to switched power, get the linear PS rebuilt so I can move the new switcher to my cyberball (it has a flakey switcher), and get the coin slots working.

[Level42]

Nice work !

[TheShanMan]

I was working on the coin door last night... it has a LOT of rust. Took it apart and cleaned the coin return door and "cup", which looked horrible. The door was completely rusted, but I got all the rust off and it looks quite nice now. Cleaned up the inside area too, but to a lesser degree. I didn't want it to feel quite so gross to the touch, but didn't care quite as much about how it looks since it's all "behind closed doors".

Right now the coin lights don't work because I don't have translucent 25¢ squares in there - they're just filled with black plastic. And the center SBA slot is blocked entirely. I'd like to put whatever is supposed to be in those squares so I can get the lights working again, and also make the center slot work on tokens too. So where can I find the art for those squares, and any suggestions on how to get or make the plastic chute that goes right behind the coin slot? I don't even know what the squares should look like, so if anyone is willing to post some close up pics, or point me to some, that would be nice.

EDIT: Added pics. See the missing plastic part in the red circle, vs. the plastic parts that are there in the green circles?

[RetroACTIVE]

Saaaay cheese 

[RetroACTIVE]

I also found the metal entry slot... not shown in pic... I'll send it too.

[TheShanMan]

Awesome! Thanks Jim! I can get the quarter inserts from pinball resource, so it looks like I'm going to be all set!

[TheShanMan]

I got my joystick working reliably tonight. It has a rebuild kit, which includes new leaf switches. Surprisingly the "down" contacts weren't working reliably. I went into the switch test screen, and found that with the joystick pressed down, I could jiggle the joystick left and right and the electrical connection was flaky. I tried cleaning the contacts with paper - no luck. I tried cleaning them with fine sandpaper - fixed! I also adjusted the leaves to have a slightly bigger gap. The joystick is now working great.

On another note, I haven't really mentioned it here yet but I am still mostly getting a rom error on boot up (rom 9). Retro and I believe it's related to my power supply since he was never getting the error with my boards when he sent them back. The only real difference between my setup and his is the power supply. I'm still running a switcher, but I've rebuilt the stock linear supply and am only awaiting connectors from BR and the big 18,000 uF cap that BR's cap kit doesn't include, and hopefully the right power supply will eliminate my boot up problems.

The other nice thing about getting my stock PS installed soon is I'll be able to get the coin lights working again, as well as the coin lockout solenoid (yeah, who cares about that in a home environment, but I'm kind of anal about stuff like that).

[RetroACTIVE]

It's probably that @$#!&@ 40 pin header I neglected to replace!

[TheShanMan]

I can't tell if you're serious or joking, especially since you previously agreed that it must be the PS. You did replace the cable, but you're talking about the header that the cable plugs onto? If you're serious, should I re-solder all the pins? I just placed a mouser order yesterday so it's bad timing if I really should replace it. But if it's the same as a computer style header then I can pick one up close to my house for cheap (an 80 pin one that I can just cut in half).

Now that I have my joystick working properly and I’m playing the game more, I noticed that if I get the rom failure on start up, it’s not something I can just ignore. The system will reset sometimes while I’m in the middle of a game, and one time one of the buttons (fire or thrust, don’t remember which) didn’t work at all.

I should be getting the connectors I need for the PS board from BR tomorrow or Saturday (according to him) so I really hope that getting the original board installed takes care of it. I saw someone say that some people like to set their defender up with 5.1V. Maybe I'll try that in the meantime to see if that helps at all.

Right now I'm waiting for the game to warm up enough to not have a rom failure on boot so I can get some practice in.

[RetroACTIVE]

I'm serious..... with all of the issues you've had I wouldn't be surprised.  I did not see ROM errors here.. and I still stand by our initial diagnosis the only diff is the PS at this point.   But those pesky headers are known for these types of symptoms.

Go ahead and reflow the pins first...add a bit of fresh solder/flux to make things flow well....just to eliminate the possibility 

[TheShanMan]

OK, thanks for the suggestion. After the linear PS is in I'll give that a try if I'm still having the problem.

[TheShanMan]

I got the linear PS installed and unfortunately the -5V supply isn't regulated properly, but fortunately since I'm using 4164 ram that isn't critical (though I plan to replace the regulator anyway). This has allowed me to move the switcher (which is brand new) to my cyberball, which had a flaky switcher, causing random resets (now it resets half a dozen times when first turned on, then is rock solid thereafter).

So the externally noticeable improvement by reinstalling a stock PS is that I could hook back up the coin door lights, and the coin lockout (though it's not working). Thanks to parts from RetroACTIVE and Pinball Resource, I now have 3 fully working coin slots, including the lighted coin inserts (middle one says DOLLARS as it did originally, though all slots actually take tokens). There was quite a bit of effort that went into the coin door. As bad as my CPU board was, the coin door was probably a close second in condition. So it's quite satisfying to see it fully functional and looking good!

My ROM 9 failure on start up still is present - it seems to happen most of the time whether warm or cold. Current thinking is that I need to replace the 40 pin header that connects the cpu and rom boards because that's one of the few things RA didn't do.

I've also been dealing with spontaneous resetting which I previously believed was tied to the rom startup failure, but now I'm thinking they may be distinct problems. Hopefully the linear PS will give me a steady, noise free supply of voltage and thereby prevent the random resets. I'm doing a test right now by pulling the battery and adding a credit. I'll watch it over several hours to see if that credit goes away. Fingers crossed.

Here are some pics of the coin door and the linear PS (taken by reaching my arm in the coin door ).

[TheShanMan]

Fingers crossed... My Defender is currently working 100%. No rom failures on start up, and no spontaneous resets. It appeared to be a faulty connection of the ROM board power connector (though I couldn't reproduce the failures with more jiggling of the harness) and possibly also not enough voltage from the linear PS. I replaced the really big cap on the PS board, and replaced R2 with a pot so I can adjust the +5V supply.

It was kind of a "duh" moment for me and Retro afterward - we had been saying "what's different between our 2 set ups" since my boards were working fine for him. The answer previously was "the power supply". We should have also said "the wiring".

I will be replacing the pins on the connectors after my next mouser order! I'm also seeing about a 0.07V drop from the PS board to chips on the CPU board, which may be attributed to those pins. Heck, I might not even need that pot after replacing the pins!

[TheShanMan]

On another note, I now have the coin lockout working on the coin door. I needed a spring to engage the lockout when the power is off. Some might say "who cares for a home machine" but little things like that bug me.

[Spyridon]

I love this shot:

[TheShanMan]

Thanks!!! The cab looks SOOOO much better now that the coin slots are right (compare to my original pic of the coin door in my first post), not to mention the rust being gone!

[SirPeale]

I will be replacing the pins on the connectors after my next mouser order! I'm also seeing about a 0.07V drop from the PS board to chips on the CPU board, which may be attributed to those pins. Heck, I might not even need that pot after replacing the pins!

That's an acceptable drop.  You'll always have some.

[jilted]

Thanks!!! The cab looks SOOOO much better now that the coin slots are right (compare to my original pic of the coin door in my first post), not to mention the rust being gone!

nice restore you got going on.  i can't praise RA enough myself. 

i was out in the garage today working on the last cosmetic job (speaker grille) that RA made for me.  another lil glitch is the marquee light fixture decided to die so i picked up another from lowes.

[TheShanMan]

I replaced the wiring with repro main and AC harnesses made by Dokert at klov (he's repro-ing many Williams harnesses). I posted my review over there and thought I should do likewise here. Here's what I posted there...

Recently installed the main and AC harnesses I bought from Dokert because my Defender was a major basket case when I bought it. The boards themselves needed major work (retroactive did an awesome job fixing them) but even when they were fixed, I had trouble keeping Defender happy. Every time I did anything as little as moving the cab, I'd get rom errors on power up and I'd have to jiggle the wires to get the problem to go away. In fact, when I pulled the cab in order to do the harness install, sure as the sun rising I got a rom error on power up.

I was extremely impressed with how nice the harnesses looked, and how easy it was to install. They were as plug-n-play as you could possibly hope. The connectors are a huge improvement over my originals. Ever since I have had zero occurrences of rom errors even with moving the cab around a handful of times since then.

I appreciate a beautiful interior almost as much as a beautiful exterior, so the new wiring is also much appreciated from an aesthetic standpoint.

So in summary, it's a quality product that installed trouble-free and was well worth the money. I couldn't be happier with the results. So if you've been thinking of ordering harnesses from Dokert, get off the fence and do it!!!