HAPP Comp joys??

[georgemcfly]

Got 2 in today, the square actuator on the bottom: I can twist the joy and it activates all 4 of the cherry switches. Is the joy supposed to be able to turn? Seems really REALLY cheap. I guess I'm missing something or I've assembled it wrong.

[dislikedword]

Mine in my SF2:CE were the same way. Im a loser and havent yet wired m cp al the way but I am wondering the same thing.

[jban4us]

Mine do the same thing. My j-stick does it as well, but has a round actuator so it doesn't do anything. Seems like most sticks would be able to since the shafts are just held in by e clips.

[Paul Olson]

There is too much tension somewhere. The stick should be able to turn without hitting the switches. The c-clip might be in the wrong place making it too tight. 

[kowal]

New Comp from Happ is knockoff from china (have black actuator not floating)
buy oryginal iL Eurojoystick from Lizaed Lick or Ponyboy (white actuator)

[MrMojoZ]

I could see some resistance from people not understanding that IL makes they joysticks they want and refusing to buy anything that dosen't say Happ on it. Lets educate.

[georgemcfly]

Get what you pay for I guess.

I don't like how the joystick will turn 45 degrees or so.

The IL from Licklizzard any better? Or would one of the leaf switch type be better?

[RandyT]

New Comp from Happ is knockoff from china (have black actuator not floating)

I ran across this issue on one yesterday.  It is not the "norm" for these sticks, rather what appears to be a QC issue. 

Some float and are just  fine while others do not. 

Starting today, I will be modifying the actuators so that they fit properly before any HAPP Competition sticks purchased from GGG are shipped.  Anyone who has recently purchased one from GGG and is seeing this issue can send their actuator back to me and have it fixed at no charge.  Anyone else will need to complain to HAPP (and I recommend that you do.  It's how these things get fixed.)

RandyT

[cadmium]

Get what you pay for I guess.

It's a $2 difference, so i don't think cost is an issue.

I should have gotten the IL's. I have 2 Happ comps and neither "float". In fact one was so tight I couldn't even get the shaft far enough through to attach the c-clip. It works okay and certainly isn't going anywhere (ever, I think I'll have to saw the shaft off to remove it).

I'm half tempted to drop the $25 to switch to IL's. I think red would look better anyway 

[RandyT]

Rather than start a new thread on the subject, I'll post an update here and hope that people see it.

I've been working with HAPP to help them remedy this situation, and have sent them samples which I have made the modifications to (I.e. the modded, properly functioning units as they are shipped to our customers), as well as explanations as to what the problem is.  I just heard back from them and they now understand it and are addressing the issue.

In the meantime, HAPP will be shipping us the white IL actuators for our current stock of units, which will bring these fully on par with the performance of the IL comp-style sticks without me having to put the extra labor into them.  Understand that the out-of-spec actuator issue is still ongoing with many of the currently shipping HAPP Competition sticks, but not with any of the units purchased through GroovyGameGear.

Just wanted to bring the community up to speed on our efforts to get this straightened out.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Great timing, RandyT! You just shipped me two of them! Thanks!

[kowal]

exchange actuator on white will not help.
still to be hear odd double cliques on microswitch.
new comp is ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---
original Spanish only and cherry D series micro

my solution from HAPP - stop producing ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in china
HAPP kill P360, Competion and now my colleague bought Happ Super on E-bay and he got Chinese cracking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, manual is from HAPP and cherry KWJ micro (only Suzo and Happ use KWJ). new Happ Super also is from china?

[RandyT]

exchange actuator on white will not help.
still to be hear odd double cliques on microswitch.

I saw this once.  It was just a bad Cherry switch, not anything to do with the Competition stick design.

new comp is ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---

I respect your opinion, but that's all it is and I disagree.  I've been over these sticks with a set of micrometers and everything else is spot on.  The original design was based on a lot of input from HAPP, so it's as much theirs as anyone else's who might attempt to claim it as their own.

The motion is smooth and precise with the actuator fixed, the same as the IL manufactured variety.  IMHO, maybe even a bit smoother.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Good to hear. Can't wait to try em.

[ponyboy]

I have the original Competiton Joysticks in STOCK from iL!!!   Price is a slightly higher but no worries!!!

Also, when you purchase a Happ Comp Stick watch for the colors especially Green.  They do not match the pushbuttons.  Not only is Happ having a mechanical problem but they are having color matching problems as well.  Especially if you take a Comp Stick and a Comp Pushbutton they do not match.  Happ pours the Comp Sticks in China and still purchases the Comp Pushbutton from iL.

If you need the Comp Sticks I have them readily available in the following colors:  Red, Blue, Green, Yellow, Black and a New color Orange.  Also, the shaft and dust washer are matching color to the stick.  9.95 ea.

Thanks,

Ponyboy

[dmworking247]

Randy/Anyone,

Are you able to provide some details on how to modify the actuators for those of us 'stuck' with Happ Comp joysticks where the actuator rotates with the joystick?

I have 4 doing the same thing, bought from 3 different sources.

[RandyT]

Randy/Anyone,

Are you able to provide some details on how to modify the actuators for those of us 'stuck' with Happ Comp joysticks where the actuator rotates with the joystick?

I have 4 doing the same thing, bought from 3 different sources.

The process is simple, just opening up the ID, but the requirements from a tooling standpoint are unfortunately high.  Most don't have a 9/16" drill bit / reamer and a drill press, but that's the minimum equipment required to make the mod.

I'm guessing you didn't buy any of them from GGG, but regardless, if you want to send them to me a with a stamped, self addressed manila envelope so I can just ream them and throw them back into the mailbox, I'll help you out.

RandyT

[kagaden]

Randy/Anyone,

Are you able to provide some details on how to modify the actuators for those of us 'stuck' with Happ Comp joysticks where the actuator rotates with the joystick?

I have 4 doing the same thing, bought from 3 different sources.

The process is simple, just opening up the ID, but the requirements from a tooling standpoint are unfortunately high.  Most don't have a 9/16" drill bit / reamer and a drill press, but that's the minimum equipment required to make the mod.

I'm guessing you didn't buy any of them from GGG, but regardless, if you want to send them to me a with a stamped, self addressed manila envelope so I can just ream them and throw them back into the mailbox, I'll help you out.

RandyT

Any chances on selling any + shipping? I have some coming in and I don't believe they'll be fixed (from Divemaster). The last set I got from him were like this also, I thought it was weird but didn't really question it until this thread.

Edit: I'd be in for about 6 of them if so.

[dmworking247]

Randy/Anyone,

Are you able to provide some details on how to modify the actuators for those of us 'stuck' with Happ Comp joysticks where the actuator rotates with the joystick?

I have 4 doing the same thing, bought from 3 different sources.

I'm guessing you didn't buy any of them from GGG, but regardless, if you want to send them to me a with a stamped, self addressed manila envelope so I can just ream them and throw them back into the mailbox, I'll help you out.

RandyT

Hahaha, I was just about to type "no I didn't" when I realised... wait a sec, yes I did... I bought two of the blue ones from you around March/April timeframe when I visited the US... they've been sitting in a box since then and I brought them out when I started building some desktop joysticks the other day.

I do have a drill press, but 9/16 is 14.2mm... which is a pretty odd metric measurement.  Is there a danger of boring them out too much? How precise does it have to be?

Return postage to the US would be a bit of a pain though... I'll have a think about what I can do.

[kowal]

It was just a bad Cherry switch, not anything to do with the Competition stick design.

old happ (from iL) use KWJ "bad" switches and meny other stick use "bad" switches KWJ

I respect your opinion, but that's all it is and I disagree

I respect your opinion (china happ vendor)

Are you able to provide some details on how to modify the actuators for those of us 'stuck' with Happ Comp joysticks where the actuator rotates with the joystick?

1. use sand paper on actuator tube/slave
2. iL vendor
3. e-bay and Wico Conical Joystick with improved actuator


 

[RandyT]

Hahaha, I was just about to type "no I didn't" when I realised... wait a sec, yes I did... I bought two of the blue ones from you around March/April timeframe when I visited the US... they've been sitting in a box since then and I brought them out when I started building some desktop joysticks the other day.

If so, then send them to me (actuators only) and I'll fix them and cover the return postage.

I do have a drill press, but 9/16 is 14.2mm... which is a pretty odd metric measurement.  Is there a danger of boring them out too much? How precise does it have to be?

.2mm is only about .008", if my math is correct, so 14mm will be fine. 15mm will give you too much slop.

I respect your opinion (china happ vendor)

I offer products from a number of vendors and don't have odd sentimental attachments to one or the other.  Either something works well or it doesn't, and when it doesn't, I work with that vendor to improve it for the benefit of everyone.  So far, you have just arbitrarily decided that anything that comes from China is junk, instead of applying some good engineering principles and stating why it is you believe this to be true.

Nationalism has no place in a discussion about the mechanical properties of a joystick.

RandyT

[kowal]

wow Nationalism in discussion about joystick knockoff
  Godwin law

I work with that vendor to improve it for the benefit of everyone

improve is one - original from iL

[RandyT]

joystick knockoff - original from iL

Based on my conversations with industry insiders who were there at the time, it is far more appropriate to view this as the same exact design from a different manufacturer.  A "knockoff" implies IP theft, which is not the case here.

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

Am I correct in my understanding that the issue is that the new actuators (they aren't really a knockoff if the order and specs come from the originating company) are a bit too tight ?

EDIT: I see Randy already addressed the bit about the term knockoff.

[RandyT]

Am I correct in my understanding that the issue is that the new actuators (they aren't really a knockoff if the order and specs come from the originating company) are a bit too tight ?

That's all.  The actuator is supposed to "float" in order to automatically square itself to the switches.  If it's too tight, it's possible to change the angle of the actuator face in relation to the switches by spinning the stick.  As spinning of the stick is inevitable (and often desirable) during use, the non-floating actuator makes for an odd switching dynamic.

All parts between the two manufacturers are completely interchangeable, which is why it is possible to swap the IL manufactured actuator for the HAPP part.

RandyT

[kowal]

it is not only the problem of float
odd switch double click is effect faster engage (not no-floating).
in Chinese crap the relation of throw to engagement is be disturbed
engage is 2degrees faster on china knockoff and have better diagonals (only 1 positive thing)
actuator presses plunger under different angle in vertical, he crushes him from up,  does with him "trigger"
EOT

[RandyT]

it is not only the problem of float
odd switch double click is effect faster engage (not no-floating).
in Chinese crap the relation of throw to engagement is be disturbed
engage is 2degrees faster on china knockoff and have better diagonals (only 1 positive thing)
actuator presses plunger under different angle in vertical, he crushes him from up,  does with him "trigger"

I'm not sure which part is more bizarre; the fact that you believe that 2 degrees difference in actuation is related to anything beyond the normal manufacturing variances of the microswitches, the idea that 2 degrees of variance would actually affect the proper use of an 8-way switch based stick, or that you expect people to believe that you have a setup that can actually 100% reliably measure this tiny difference.

You really are reaching here, and it is much more useful to focus on the important aspects of the situation at hand.

RandyT

[CheffoJeffo]

Not to mention the question of how many sticks he has tested.

 

[kowal]

I have 2 pcs from Happ 27/09/2007 1y ago:), I was one of first who get china crap lol my lucky! 



both are quicker. on eurojoystick throw to engage it looks how 2:1 on china looks how 3:1
let's are serious - other meny players from SRK give the same noticed: china have better diagonals and clique more quickly. and this situation it is normal (in other stick too) faster engage (regard of throw) get more rage diagonals

 

[RandyT]

let's are serious - other meny players from SRK give the same noticed:

Yes, I saw that discussion.  In it, there were a lot of wildly misguided notions as to why there was a difference.  I even registered intending to post in that bizarre thread, but never got around to doing it.

Again, different switches give a different engagement point.  Even switches which provide these specifications provide a range, as the manufacturing cannot be controlled so tightly in such an inexpensive part.  This means that switches labeled with exactly the same part number will very probably have actuation points that are different by several degrees when triangulated to the stick.

The double-click issue I found once, and never again, followed the switch, not the actuator.  It's very simple to see that it was a switch problem. 

Trust me, the volume of these that pass through my hands would yield a "kick in the groin" of huge proportions if they were as bad as you are attempting to make them out to be.  The only reason it has taken this long to surface is because the actuator issue is not a consistent problem.  Some of the ones being shipped are perfectly fine and work extremely well.  The important thing that you and others most likely don't realize is that plastic parts are made in multi-cavity molds, and each cavity needs to be individually machined.  This ends up giving each part a specific personality.  The faulty actuator is likely the result of only one cavity (out of many) that needs to be addressed in order to take care of it once and for all.

What really makes the issue difficult is when two people, who got their sticks from the same company on the same day, can't understand why one person says there's "no problem", while the other says they are "crap".  And this is a problem because they are both correct, but neither knows quite why without more information.  As this information is unlikely to arrive, or be properly considered by those individuals, we end up seeing uneducated speculation that does little more than create hysteria over a very small, very fixable issue.

So how about we give this "china crap" stupidity a rest and get concerned with getting the issue taken care of so that no-one in the community need be concerned about where the joystick was manufactured to ensure they get one that works well.  The direction the U.S. dollar is heading means that the IL parts are going to get a lot more expensive very shortly, and some of us aren't paid in Euros.

RandyT

[kagaden]

So Randy, about that actuator purchase...

I know the ones I have now are non-floating, and I was wondering why it felt flawed

[kowal]

iL eurojoystick on KWJ work fine engage is longer on joystick

it is not the switch activation problem only switch construction, D series have are more solid plunger, base and mechanism
plunger on KWJ is delicate, less stable (in vertical on joystick). It generates double click (clique)

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kwjky1.gif

but stick still have too fas engage only other switch is more solid and they sustain better push from top. it is still joystick crap problem not switches


You did not check it - it is true. You say stupidity. 

[TOK]

Its admirable that Randy T keeps an open mind to Chinese manufacturing, and can totally see how one bad mold can affect a companies products... The thing is is that these "crap" comments aren't coming from nowhere. Toys are almost all coming from China now and the quality on them is abysmal. Anyone with kids can tell you how much of it breaks on day 1, and how plastic molds for latches and stuff on toys fall apart in your hands. That isn't even addressing lead based paint found on Chinese toys and candy tainted with poisons. Chinese vehicles, their next huge export, have scored the worst crash test scores since crash test data has been recorded.

Yes, this joystick issue is a minor thing, but I disagree that making anything in China is a good idea at this point.

[RandyT]

iL eurojoystick on KWJ work fine engage is longer on joystick

it is not the switch activation problem only switch construction, D series have are more solid plunger, base and mechanism
plunger on KWJ is delicate, less stable (in vertical on joystick). It generates double click (clique)

http://img90.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kwjky1.gif

but stick still have too fas engage only other switch is more solid and they sustain better push from top. it is still joystick crap problem not switches


You did not check it - it is true. You say stupidity. 

I did check it.  What you say happens, doesn't.  If it did, it would be doing it on many, many sticks, and on every switch.

Yes, this joystick issue is a minor thing, but I disagree that making anything in China is a good idea at this point.

This is starting to become a discussion for P&R, but this is ridiculous, TOK.  Damned near everything is made in China nowadays, most likely including the keyboard you typed that reply on.  Categorically condemning the products of a massive country when you are using them everyday (and you are) without issue is simple prejudice.  And the next time one of your your kids toys "falls apart in your hands", bear in mind that it had the name of an American corporation stamped on it.  Design, QC, and ultimate responsibility for that product lies with that name, not the factory who followed their orders.

RandyT

[Ginsu Victim]

Damned near everything is made in China nowadays, most likely including the keyboard you typed that reply on. 

Flips over keyboard and looks....

Yep, my HP keyboard is made in China. It has lasted several years in a work environment without fail.

[MrMojoZ]

Don't confuse "made in China" with "made as cheaply as possible but you will buy it anyway because it costs less". Chinese factories make items as good as they are required to by the people paying for the product.

If you don't like Happ Chinese sticks then Happ is the one who is responsible. Happ is running their products into the ground while trading on a name they made years ago, I won't be buying anymore of their stuff.

[Ginsu Victim]

Don't confuse "made in China" with "made as cheaply as possible but you will buy it anyway because it costs less". Chinese factories make items as good as they are required to by the people paying for the product.

That's pretty obvious. It doesn't matter where it's made, only who is behind it and how much they care about making a quality item. Go to a site like http://www.dealextreme.com/ to see examples of good products contrasted against cheap-as-all-hell products.

[RandyT]

If you don't like Happ Chinese sticks then Happ is the one who is responsible. Happ is running their products into the ground while trading on a name they made years ago, I won't be buying anymore of their stuff.

As one who is very close to this situation, I can tell you that it's not intentional.  If it were, then my complaints would have fallen on deaf ears, and they have not.  My humble opinion is that they are merely suffering from what many American companies are suffering from and that is what I refer to as a "talent void".  I get the feeling that the folks who were instrumental in these designs and knew what they did and why, simply aren't around anymore, and someone who doesn't really understand them was pushed into a situation where they had to deal with them.  Sometimes an individual's best isn't good enough in a situation like this, so they have to rely on end-users to tell them what they need to do better.

And BTW, this move to Chinese manufacturing was not a money grab.  It was something they needed to do to stay competitive (read: in business) thus securing their future.  There have been actual knockoffs of the HAPP designs being produced in China for some time now.  Their main customers (the machine builders) tend to be more cost conscious and less astute than we tend to be, so HAPP found themselves competing against their own designs, but with a huge cost disadvantage.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where that would have led them.

If the people in this community want to continue to have good parts at good prices, the answer is not to boycott, rather to help educate and hold them accountable so everyone wins.  If you try to help and get ignored, that's a different case, but I don't believe that  this is what is happening here.

RandyT

[kowal]

the difference on Competion (china-crap) and Eurojoystick (iL) is the same as  difference between X - arcade (china -crap) and Compact Joystick (iL aka super joystick).
but if someone on this forum ask: better to buy X-arcade or Happ Super?
every would answer :HAPP super! because is original and Happ (iL) have better realization than BaoLian! 
and it is normal...

RT do not tell that you checked, because You did not know where problem comes into being. you found first info on this subject lol!
and You still do not believe!

[RandyT]

the difference on Competion (china-crap) and Eurojoystick (iL) is the same as  difference between X - arcade (china -crap) and Compact Joystick (iL aka super joystick).
but if someone on this forum ask: better to buy X-arcade or Happ Super?
every would answer :HAPP super! because is original and Happ (iL) have better realization than BaoLian! 
and it is normal...

RT do not tell that you checked, because You did not know where problem comes into being. you found first info on this subject lol!
and You still do not believe!

Actually, if you ask anyone who owns an X-Arcade (and I have those sticks here as well) the only complaint on the sticks is that the switches are more "clicky".  Most recommend changing the switches to Cherries.

And you can believe what you want.  My observations are ongoing and I see new Comp sticks everyday.  Yours are based on 2 units that you purchased a year ago during the transitional phase.

RandyT