Request for Defender CP layout details

[TheShanMan]

I have a single joystick (swappable) CP that currently has 3 buttons on it. I want to add a couple more buttons to make this panel defender-friendly, though by no means will this be a defender-specific panel. I use it for all my 4 way games (it's actually an ultimarc 4/8 way switchable mag stik plus, but I don't find it to be a very good 8 way stick).

The 3 buttons that are on it right now are actually laid out very similarly to the 3 grouped buttons on the real defender panel. So I'm thinking of the reverse and hyperspace buttons. I think I'd like to put a reverse button in the "correct" spot, and probably the same goes for the hyperspace button. I have 3 questions:

• Given that it will be used for many games, can you think of a reason I'd regret this layout? Actually there aren't many games where I use all 3 of my current buttons so my thinking is that it will be fine. But then again more buttons would open up the possibility to more games. I do have a 2 8 way joystick, 6 button panel too, so keep that alternative in mind.
• How about other games that this will be a GOOD layout for? Seems like there must be some games where having that thumb reverse button would be really useful.
• Finally, for those of you with a real defender or repro defender panel would you mind measuring the distance from the center of the stick shaft to the center of the reverse button, and also the angle? Looks like 45 degrees, but I would want to place it as precisely as possible (unless people don't like the original position!).

Thanks!

P.S. My motivation: my DK games are starting to take so long (usually over 1/2 hour) that I don't like to play it during the week when time is at a premium and the kids are itching to play too. Therefore I need a new game to focus on during the week. My 6 yr old son told me today that I practice DK too much and said I need to start practicing a different game. He asked me which game I want to get better at, and after giving it the day to think over, it's gotta be defender!

[arzoo]

I'm not at home so I can't measure my Defender cp - sorry. I can't think of any games other than Defender and Stargate that use a left side thumb button, but I don't think it will get in the way. With two left side buttons and the hyperspace (lower center), you may have a pretty good Asteroids layout - depends on how far right your current buttons are placed. Could you  post a pic of your cp?

[TheShanMan]

Don't have a pic handy, but the center of the leftmost of the 3 buttons is about 7" from the center of the joystick shaft. In fact, looking at it right now I'm not so sure I'll like the hyperspace button in the middle. It just doesn't look like there is enough space for it to look good. I'd be open to suggestions of whether I should go with 2 rows of 5 or 6 buttons (with a slight arc to them - leftmost button dropped about 1/2") or a single row of 4 (just adding the hyperspace button to the right of the existing 3).

I didn't figure there would be any other games which use a thumb button like that; just thought there might be some that would benefit from this layout.

[Paul Olson]

arzoo - when you get a chance, would you mind measuring the button spacing on the whole panel? No rush at all; I probably wont get to this for a while. I want to try to remake the defender layout on my modular panel. Maybe I can actually learn to play it someday.


Thanks,
Paul

[TOK]

If arzoo can't get you measurements, I can probably get you some decent ones... I built a Defender/Stargate cab around a repro Stargate overlay. When I made the panel, I traced the button layout onto a second scrap of wood so I'd always have a template.

There is a Defender/Stargate hybrid panel on localarcade.com, but the button layout is way off. That was originally what I was going to use. As soon as I did a b/w print of it and put my hands on it, I knew it wasn't gonna work. You can see how whack the button spacing is compared to the real thing. Finding that out was where my build plan went from a total cheapie made from existing parts and home printed artwork into a money pit. 

[TheShanMan]

Reverse button measurements for stargate I think would be just as good. Probably just the same as defender.

Is this a mame machine? Do you play other games with it? If so, have you run across games where you decided to map the reverse button to something that normally wouldn't be in that location?

[TOK]

I don't use the reverse button for anything but Defender and Stargate on this machine... I did a thumb button on my first cab also, and it gets used for a few other games like Total Carnage and a mostly unknown game that I love called Rescue.
The Stargate machine is a bartop and it has other stuff on it, but I kept the game list pretty short. The stick is a Sanwa 8 way and since most Golden Age games didn't use a lot of buttons anyway, the Stargate Thrust and Fire buttons are good for button 1 and 2.

I'm pretty sure just from feel that the button spacing is identical between the two games. Stargate just adds the Inviso button.

I just took a quick look and the center of the stick shaft to the center of the button is about 2 1/8". Thats not exact because its just holding the ruler by the stick and button. The template I made is buried out in the garage. I can tell you that its close enough that you'll have to trim the base on most sticks. Here is a pic of what I trimmed off the Sanwa and I did something similar to a Happ Competition. I don't really like playing the Defender with the bat-top Happ on the other machine, but it was functional enough until I got this done.

On the Sanwa, I actually had to trim away a bit of the housing too, but not enough to go through.


Pic sucks, but you can see how tight they fit together after the trim.

[arzoo]

arzoo - when you get a chance, would you mind measuring the button spacing on the whole panel? No rush at all; I probably wont get to this for a while. I want to try to remake the defender layout on my modular panel. Maybe I can actually learn to play it someday.


Thanks,
Paul

I'm home later today (long trip - drove from Lake George, NY down to Ft. Lauderdale, FL and back north, visiting friends and family along the way. Over 3000 miles by the time I get home.) Anyway, if know one else gets to it first, I'll measure and post the Defender and Stargate cp's tonight or tomorrow.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks guys. I did figure I'd have to mod my stick. The distance will determine how much (and if it's even going to work). I'm also interested in the angle between the stick and the button. Looks like it's roughly 45 degrees, but if it's possible for either of you guys to measure that I would be grateful.

I'm starting to think about putting the hyperspace to the right of the 3rd button, as part of a 4 button cluster (leftmost button is dropped by around 1/2" so it forms an arc). Again, this is due to relatively little space between the buttons and the joystick (around 7"). I'm curious to get your reaction based on how you use hyperspace. I know it's a relatively uncommonly used button. I wonder if when you DO need to use it, you're moving your hand so fast to hit the button quickly that if I were to do the same thing on my 4 button cluster design, I'd end up hitting button 3 accidentally sometimes (or hitting both 3 and 4). It's probably not a big deal one way or the other I'd guess, but I'm just curious to hear what you defender/stargate experts think.

[TOK]

See if this gives you the info you need. I didn't type this up, but I did use it. Measurements are metric though.

================================================================================



                 (1)     (2)

          O                     (T)(F)
           (R)                (S)
                     (H)    (I)

1,2 - 1 and 2 player start, tranparent red
O - up,down lever, red (can use a Joust stick)
R reverse, white
T thrust, white
F fire, white
S smart bomb, green
I inviso, red
H hyperspace, white

FYI, the defender layout was identical except that the 1 & 2 player
start buttons were white and there was no inviso.  The wiring harness
for stargate will work on a Defender board set.
================================================================================


================================================================================
All measurements are in cm

- plywood is 1.9 thick


          17.1
       *----------
       |A  14.7    ^
       |           |
 14.7  | 11.6    17.2        (from side)
       |           |
       |B  7.35    v
       *------
         9.05

* is rounded and around 2.1 cm thick
- Angle A is 99 o while angle B is 101 o.
================================================================================



  (looking down on top of control panel)

                                   <- 62 ->
 *----------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 |                                                                            |
 |    2.5                                                                     |
 |     -                         4.7       4.7            4.7  4.7            |
 |    | |                   27.15 O         O 27.15         O   O 11.75       |
 |    | |                                                   <- 15.5 ->        |
 |12.9|O|                                               7.65                  |
 |    | |                                                O 18.4               |
 |    | | 9.7                                                                 |
 |     -   O                                        10.65                     |
 |<- 18.5 ->                                          O 21.25                 |
 |                               29.45 O 29.45                                |
 |                                    4.7                                     |
 *----------------------------------------------------------------------------*

- Os are buttons and joystick
- measurements are from CENTER of button hole THROUGH the number
- measurements are from the EDGE of the joystick THROUGH the number
- the measurements from the bottom would be if it was UNROUNDED!
- rounding starts 15.4cm from top
- button holes are 2.95-3cm across
- channel for joy is 2.45cm wide and ABOUT 6.7-7cm long   

[arzoo]

Found this elsewhere on arcadecontrols.com (Posted by Dale). I've confirmed it matches my Defender cp.

[TheShanMan]

Perfect, arzoo. Thanks guys!

[Paul Olson]

Thanks, that will work perfect. I may have to push this project up in the que; it might have a better chance of getting completed than some of the others. 

[TheShanMan]

Arzoo or TOK, please confirm for me... it looks like from the center of the joystick to the center of the button is 3/4" down and 1 3/4" over, so it's not 45 degrees at all. Is that about what the measurements are on your panels?

That stargate CPO makes it look like about 45 degrees, but maybe it's the angle of the picture that's misleading me???

[Paul Olson]

I have a question for those of you who play this game for more than a minute at a time  . My modular panel uses a 6" panel for start buttons, and 7" panels for joys and buttons. I can use whatever I want, but I try to stick to these sizes for simplicity. In order to add the invisio button, I would need to move the other 3 buttons to the right 1.25". When placed like this, it actually feels like my hands are in the correct position (both equal distance from center of CP. The original layout feels like my right hand is too far in. Are there any gameplay issues from moving the buttons out?

I have never played Stargate, and I really suck at Defender, so either way will probably feel OK to me, so I am more worried about other players. If I ever get a player here, will the wider spacing throw them off?

[TOK]

Arzoo or TOK, please confirm for me... it looks like from the center of the joystick to the center of the button is 3/4" down and 1 3/4" over, so it's not 45 degrees at all. Is that about what the measurements are on your panels?

That stargate CPO makes it look like about 45 degrees, but maybe it's the angle of the picture that's misleading me???

Mine sits pretty square. I just took a ruler and measured it (its tough because I have to estimate the center of the joystick shaft) and the button sits 1.5" right and 1.5" down of the stick.

I noticed on the drawing, that for as good as it is, some of the measurements are tough to reference since its giving you numbers from the side of an original panel instead of in relation to each other.

[TOK]

pcolson: I don't think you'll have play issues by widening the layout. Before I had the dedicated panel, my setup was basically a 2 player Street Fighter layout with a thumb button added. I used the player 2 buttons as my Defender buttons. If you look at the button layout like this:
123
456

I used button 2 for thrust, 3 for fire and 4 for smart bomb. That pretty closely approximates the Defender layout.
Where I fudged it was for Hyperspace and Inviso on Stargate. I used button 5 for Inviso, which is nowhere close to accurate and I used on of the button on the player 1 side for hyperspace, another totally inaccurate placement.
That layout was like 10" wider than the real panel and even with the oddball button placement I was able to have fun with Defender and actually get pretty good at it. I prefer Defender to Stargate, but went with the Stargate theme for completeness. The layout is identical other than the Inviso button.

[Paul Olson]

I think I will go with the defender measurements and leave out the invisio button for stargate. The odds of me actually playing it are pretty slim. If I change my mind later, it doesn't cost much to redo it. Can you guys take one more measurement for me? How tall is joystick above the panel? I have an original stick to use, but I need to know how much wood to route out of the panel, if any.

Thanks for all the help,
Paul

I really need to find an arcade that has all of the classics, I haven't seen the originals in years. 

[arzoo]

I think I will go with the defender measurements and leave out the invisio button for stargate. The odds of me actually playing it are pretty slim. If I change my mind later, it doesn't cost much to redo it. Can you guys take one more measurement for me? How tall is joystick above the panel? I have an original stick to use, but I need to know how much wood to route out of the panel, if any.

From the top of the panel to the top of the ball is 1.5 inches.

[erictrumpet]

Don't assume that just because right now you love Defender and feel sort of "meh" on Stargate that you won't play much Stargate. Once you build a real panel, your Defender scores will soar and your interest in Stargate won't be far behind. You will definitely wish that you'd included the Invisio button at the design stage. Just my 2 cents!

Eric.

[Paul Olson]

Just to clarify: I hate Defender and have never tried Stargate. I am making the panel to see if I like it better when it is not sucking quarters from me so fast. 
MDF is cheap, and I have a drawer full of buttons, so I can make a panel for each if necessary.

I might get this done today, I just need to find the defender joystick and drill some holes.
I finished shopping my pinball machine last night, then on the first ball I blew a chunk off one of the upper flippers. I have to wait for a replacement so these panels moved up the que again.

[erictrumpet]

Yep... I used to say that too... then I built a proper Defender panel and the game is still ultra-hard, but I love it! And I speak from experience -- I wish I'd added that Stargate invisio button from the get-go.

Ironically, playing Stargate is how I got my basic skills for Defender. You can play a double-quarter game in Stargate with twice the lives and a huge load of smartbombs. I played this "easy" way for a while and got the feel for the interface. Now I can't get enough of Stargate and especially Defender -- the original and still the best!

Good luck... these games can consume you... right now you think Defender only eats quarters, wait until it starts eating HOURS!

Eric.

[arzoo]

This thread has some tips for playing Defender... The Day I No Longer Suck!

[TOK]

Maybe I should rename that something with Defender in the title. It kind of took off and has lots of cool info like the Donkey Kong thread.

[arzoo]

Maybe I should rename that something with Defender in the title. It kind of took off and has lots of cool info like the Donkey Kong thread.

I like the title! I guess you could change it to "The Day I No Longer Suck At Defender"

[TheShanMan]

Mine sits pretty square. I just took a ruler and measured it (its tough because I have to estimate the center of the joystick shaft) and the button sits 1.5" right and 1.5" down of the stick.

I noticed on the drawing, that for as good as it is, some of the measurements are tough to reference since its giving you numbers from the side of an original panel instead of in relation to each other.

I was thrown off by the joystick location - I thought that rectangle represented the shaft of the joystick, not the opening in the CP.

So now that I understand that, I still don't come up with 45 degrees. I come up with 1.375" down and 1.75" to the right.

TOK, it sounds like you wouldn't agree with that? Arzoo, can you confirm either my calculations from your post or TOK's measurements of 1.5" down and 1.5" to the right?

[arzoo]

I agree - showing the panel slot rather than the location of the joystick shaft is confusing. I'll check my panel tonight.

[TOK]

While my overlay is genuine, I'm using a Sanwa 8 way in the center of the oblong hole design used for Defenders 2 way. Since I'm not using a genuine stick, my stick setup might not be precise enough to judge by if you're looking for absolute accuracy.

[arzoo]

Ok, on my cp, the joystick shaft on-center is 5.5" from the left and 2.5" from the top. That puts the reverse button 1.75" to the right and 1.25" below the joystick.

[TheShanMan]

Thanks to both of you guys. Arzoo, your measurements are only a hair off of the measurements from that image you posted, and since you have the real deal, I'm going with your measurements.

Not sure if I'll get around to making the mod soon (I'm going on vacation later this week), but I'll be sure to let you know how it turns out.

[TheShanMan]

So tonight the plan was to modify my panel to closely match the defender layout, as we've discussed here. I got it all apart and figured out the modifications I'd need to make (including cutting part of the joystick mounting plate off to make room for the reverse button).

However, I'm having doubts about it. I'm just not sure I'm going to like the location of the reverse button. I'm wondering what those of you guys who have defender/stargate panels think about the reverse button location (arzoo, TOK, erictrumpet, anyone else). I know you're probably VERY used to it, but try to separate yourself from what you're used to and think about where you would have put it if you were on the defender design team. Would you really have put it 1.75" right and 1.25" down from the center of the joystick?

It almost seems like it should be up higher to me. However, they could have been constrained by the body of the joystick (as I would be I think).

So now I'm back to wiping the slate clean and starting over on my decision of how to lay out my buttons. I'm not dead set against the left hand thumb button, so please try to convince me if you do really think it's ideally placed (or if you'd suggest a slightly different location for a left hand thumb button).

The main constraint I have is that I currently have 3 buttons on the panel in a small arc (button 1 slightly lower than 2 and 3, where 2 and 3 are side by side). Button 1 is NOT down low enough to be a thumb button though.

I actually started to get excited about 5 buttons in an arc, where every finger of the right hand would naturally sit right on each button. However, I think I would hate having a button under my thumb for games which wouldn't use a thumb button (and maybe even for defender, for all I know).

So here's what I've come up with as my current thinking, and again I depend on you defender/stargate experts to chime in and tell me what you think. So I'm thinking:

• Button 1: Thrust
• Button 2: Fire
• Button 3: Smart Bomb
• Button 4 (or 5): Reverse
• Button 6: Hyperspace

where the button layout would look like this (1 and 4 are dropped by about 1/2"):

456
123

If it would help to take a picture, I'll take one of my fighter panel, which would have an identical layout.

One nice thing about this layout: I can give it a "test drive" on my fighter panel before committing to it on my single joystick panel.

Of course, I'm also open to suggestions on other locations for buttons 4 and 5 (and a 6th if appropriate).

[TOK]

I'm so used to the Defender/Stargate layout by now that its tough to imagine it a different way. I find the stick height crucial. It has to be low like the original, or the reach down to it will feel awkward. Its been so long since I paid attention to it that I had to go to the machine and lay my hands on the panel to remember the reach to the button. I actually hit the reverse button with the side of my thumb.

I think the issue you might run into with your alternate layout is having too much to do with your right hand. With the standard layout, you're already doing a lot between the thrust and fire button. Reverse becomes huge in later levels when Mutants and Baiters come into play, since quick double reverse taps is one of the strategies that lets you kill them.

[arzoo]

I'm so used to the Defender/Stargate layout by now that its tough to imagine it a different way. I find the stick height crucial. It has to be low like the original, or the reach down to it will feel awkward. Its been so long since I paid attention to it that I had to go to the machine and lay my hands on the panel to remember the reach to the button. I actually hit the reverse button with the side of my thumb.

Ditto on what TOK said. The thumb button position seems perfect (I also use the side of my thumb).

On my mame cab, I have a button located horizontally close to the the joystick - it works ok for Defender and I can get use to it, but it's not nearly as natural as the Defender layout. Part of that may be due to the stick not being low enough and the button is spaced just a bit too far.

[TheShanMan]

Actually, I remember something about a MAME cheat regarding reverse. Don't know the specifics, but I've been thinking "if only left and right on the joystick would make you go left or right". I used to have reverse mapped to left OR right, but I didn't like that since if you were already going left and you pushed the joystick left, suddenly you'd be going right. But I bet the cheat removes the concept of reversing and replaces it with "go left" and "go right". I'm going to have to investigate this tonight. If my suspicion is correct, I think I'll take this approach, and then if it doesn't seem ideal when and if I am good enough to reach advanced levels, I can always add a button then.

Good point about the right hand being too busy though guys! If my cheat idea doesn't pan out then I'll definitely give the left thumb button strong consideration again. You guys did a good job of convincing.

Thanks a lot for all your feedback!

[Paulson]

 I think you shouldn't change the original button layout...as we
  sometimes know the controls alone make these games great.

 That's why I went for the Williams multi game panel...mind you
 I'm not really interested in Sf or VF etc...

 Paulson (UK)

[leapinlew]

I built a bartop recently for multi-williams. One mistake I made, and I'm going to fix it by building another CP is to not put the reverse button close enough. I thought I'd be fine with it in the mockup, but in long plays - it's a small nuisance.

[TheShanMan]

Well, my research indicates that Aaron Giles removed the "cheat controls" from defender, so that option may be out. I'll probably post another thread inquiring about this (maybe a source patch to get it back in?).

Paulson, I hear you, but defender was never a game I played much. I loved it, but it was too freakin' hard. Now that it's free, I want to get good at it. I do agree, the original layout would be best, but since this isn't a dedicated defender panel, I have more to consider than just what's ideal for defender. That's why I'm considering alternate control layouts.

Leapinlew, thanks for the input. If I do add the left thumb button, I will almost certainly put it in the "right" spot, though it requires a minor modification to my mag stik plus (cutting away some of the mounting plate).

[leapinlew]

I have more to consider than just what's ideal for defender. That's why I'm considering alternate control layouts.

Everything else is a compromise. I'm sure everyone with Defender experience will tell you the same thing. I built a machine, just for it.

[TheShanMan]

You know, leapinlew, since I have swappable panels I'm actually tempted to just make a dedicated defender panel! 2 way joysticks and buttons are cheap, after all. And I'm already in the process of making a dedicated tron panel! Only problem is time (this hobby can be a real time sink, huh?).

[Paulson]

I built a bartop recently for multi-williams. One mistake I made, and I'm going to fix it by building another CP is to not put the reverse button close enough. I thought I'd be fine with it in the mockup, but in long plays - it's a small nuisance.





 I saw someone else on here who built a Williams Multi panel & had to
 cut away the bottom of the joystick so he could get it close enough...

 Nice cab btw...


 Paulson (uk)

 Oops...it's already in this thread...sorry