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Author Topic: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added  (Read 8742 times)

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grbgemen

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just bought my first pinball today from a garage sale.  paid $250 for a Gottlieb Sinbad.....was that to much? Back glass is in really nice shape.  Play field looks good too but needs a cleaning.  Not sure what i should use.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 03:37:06 pm by grbgemen »

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2008, 09:25:54 pm »
also, where can i get the 4 bolts that hold the top piece to the base?  or in other words, the part with the scores to the play field.

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2008, 10:45:20 pm »
Use Novus 2 to clean the playfield. After you clean it, use Mother's Pure Carnuba Wax(paste form) to protect the paint.

Do not use Wildcat products!
WTB: The Grid by Midway (2001), looking for 2 or more complete games, and large marquee

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2008, 10:47:05 pm »
also, where can i get the 4 bolts that hold the top piece to the base?  or in other words, the part with the scores to the play field.

A hardware store :)
WTB: The Grid by Midway (2001), looking for 2 or more complete games, and large marquee

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2008, 11:49:16 pm »
Do not use Wildcat products!

Why not?

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2008, 12:58:55 pm »
thanks for the replies.  a quick google search shows that novus 2 is a fine scratch remover plastic polish.  thats what i use on the playfield even though it says plastic?

can you get that at a local hardware store?

and no, the game is not working.  its missing the power supply board.  i read up on system 1 pinballs and it says to fix some issues with the power supply anyway.  so i bought a replacement from rottendog

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2008, 03:04:38 pm »
Do not use Wildcat products!

Why not?

Not only is the "old formula" harsh on plastics, the "new formula" runs like water and doesn't clean very well.

Wild Cat is harsh and some blends will screw up plastic ramps.... of which Sinbad doesn't have any.

Q-bert's just repeating crap he read off the Clay guide or RGP.


Well, sure I am, but it's also what I use on my playfields. That pure carnauba wax really brings out the shine in pre-diamondplated playfields.

thanks for the replies.  a quick google search shows that novus 2 is a fine scratch remover plastic polish.  thats what i use on the playfield even though it says plastic?


Novus 2 is a great cleaner on playfields! Not just on plastics!
WTB: The Grid by Midway (2001), looking for 2 or more complete games, and large marquee

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2008, 04:02:27 pm »

Ugh, best of luck with the Rottendog board.  He doesn't test anything and his designs aren't very good. 

If it doesn't work, he'll send you another one, though.

How's the battery area look on the MPU?



damn really?  i was reading a few different websites and they all thought the rottendog board was great.  i am storing the pin at my parents while i fix it up so i cant look at the MPU.  the boards all looked clean though.  there was a battery pack hanging though.  i will have to take a second look today when i head over. 

as for the bolts, anyone know the correct size i need?  was gonna stop by the hardware store on the way over but dont know the size off the top of my head.

and the novus 2 polish, can you only buy that online?  not seeing it on any hardware stores websites that are around here.  is there anything else i could get locally or should i just order the novus and wait?

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2008, 10:42:59 am »
First off... PICS! PICS! PICS!


Hopefully your machine works once you get a power supply. The dangling battery pack is  part good and part bad. The good: it means someone has taken the time to protect against battery damage and the board has a good chance of being funtional. The bad - someone has taken the time to repair the board.  ;D If the battery pack is just dangling in the air, odds are the repairman does shoddy work. These boards are repairable as long as the Rockwell chips all work. I've brought two back from the brink.

As to ordering, I would wait until you know the working condition of the game. Then you can make a list of things to order all at once and save on shipping.

If you plan on keeping this pin, you will want to do all of the basic sys. 1 modifications. You will definitely want to order the supplies to repin the connectors. pbresource.com has a very inexpensive pair of .156 molex crimpers. I would recommend you do that before even considering a playfield cleanup.

While you are at it, go ahead and pull your driver board to test all of the transistors. Odds are good at least one or two light drivers are dead.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2008, 10:55:02 am by shardian »

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2008, 10:56:42 am »
I modded my thread above. Steve at PBresource has a monopoly on Gottlieb parts, so you might need to order thru him at some point. He is slightly higher in price than pblife on most things, but his price for the crimpers is pretty much the lowest you can find them.

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2008, 02:48:25 pm »
well i plugged in the new rottendog power supply.  crossed my fingers and turned the machine on.  i heard a slight click after pressing the power switch.  lights came on.  and then a loud buzz.  sounded like when you hold a the flippers on.  i looked up at the new power supply and i started to see grey smoke coming out.  i quickly flipped the switch off and unplugged the machine. 

looks like a Rectifier Diode burnt up.  model #1N4004. 

so what caused this?  just bad luck? faulty board from rottendog? or just a bad rectifier?  or is it something worse?


shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2008, 03:40:04 pm »
First thoughts: you plugged the J1 supply harness in upside down. This is BAD.

If all of the lights came on and you heard a loud buzzing - like the sound of all the coils energizing - then odds are all coils were on...which is possibly very bad.

Look at the bottom harness on the Power supply. There should be a sticker that denotes which side should be facing up. Unfortunately that harness is not keyed (nice huh?)

If indeed you put it in wrong, I sure hope you only left it on for a few seconds at most. At the least, your new Power supply was fried and needs repair. You also probably fried some components on the CPU - maybe even a rockwell chip or two.

WELCOME TO THE WONDERFUL WORLD OF PINBALL!!!! :dizzy: :dizzy: :cheers:

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2008, 04:12:17 pm »
well i flipped the connector around and hit the switch.  buzz is gone.  i hear two(i think two.  maybe just one) clicks.  Play field is lit.  back glass is lit.  score displays are blank.

it appears the previous owner, removed the coin mechs and added a credit switch.  i tried to add a credit but it does nothing.

i only left it on for maybe 10 seconds.  right as i was reaching under to turn it off, i heard a buzzing sound getting louder and louder. 

not sure where i should go from here.  replace the rectifier on the PSU?

what on earth did i get myself into?

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2008, 04:39:27 pm »
There are two transformers in the bottom of the cabinet that have a buzzing sound. You might just be hearing them. Lift up the playfield and that will be easy enough to figure out. where it is coming from.

If you heard 2 clicks after about 5 seconds, your game is at least trying to boot. As to the displays not coming on, your fuse could have blown during the initial power up.

Before you apply power to this game again, you need to go thru the Marvin3m  system 1 guide and check some things. And yes, that diode needs to be replaced on the power supply.
http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2008, 07:12:19 pm »
i replaced the diode.  it was one click.  the click is from the Q and T relays. 

i started looking at the repair guide you posted.  i found an old multimeter(non digital) and im gonna start following the steps.  try at least. 

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2008, 09:15:16 am »
Don't know where you live, but if you have an Harbor Freight nearby you can get a nice digital Multi-meter for like 5 bucks. I have one and actually reach for it over my low end Fluke DMM.

The main things you want to check is continuity all of the fuses on the power board in the bottom of the cabinet, and then check your voltages at both connectors of the Power Supply. The process is quite straight forward for doing a pre-boot check of your game.

Also, pull your edge connectors and check for broken/corroded/flattened pins.

Lastly, where are your pics?

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2008, 09:26:07 am »
yeah im going to go pick up a digital multi later today.  if i was reading the one i was using last night correctly, it looks like the board is getting power but i didnt get much further.  will work on it later.

and if i have time, i will get some pictures up.   ;D

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 03:46:49 pm »
a little update.  bought a digital multi meter earlier today.  started testing the CPU board.  noticed right off the bad that the board was not getting +5 and -12 volts.  so i checked the connector and it wasnt getting any voltage either.  so at this point i thought i had a bad power supply.  so i checked the AC voltage before the power supply and i had nothing.  so it had to be under the play field.  sure enough, one of the fuses was blown.  actually there was the wrong fuse in the holder.  i dug through all the fuses that were in the coin door and found a 1/4 amp fuse and popped it in.  hit the power switch and the first thing i notice is all the score displays light up immediately(i eliminated the slam switches already) with zeros.  however the displays flicker every few seconds. 

the repair guide says to replace some parts on the power supply but im using a replacement supply.  thoughts? 


shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 04:05:07 pm »
If you are getting the correct voltages at the output connector of the power supply, then your power supply is working.  What you just described is the slam switch symptoms. So you did the jumper mod on the CPU board?

If you have indeed done that (and double checked your work of course), then the only other thing I can think of is to check the coin door lockout wire to see if it is hung up on a coin switch.

Oh, and one last thing to double check which made me smack my head once I figured it out: There is a test plug on the cpu board that is essential to operation (of course). I had a board that was missing this and it would not boot. I stole one from a dead board and it worked like a charm. So, verify that this jumper plug is in place. You can see it near the top left in this picture.


grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 04:23:01 pm »
yes i did the slam switch jumper mod.  it appears to be a good connection.  displays power on right away with all zeros.  unlike the 5 second delay.

im not sure what the coin door lockout wire is.  there is 2 wires hanging off the back of my coin door that are connected to nothing.  one is red while the other is brown with a green stripe. 

and yes, the test plug is in place.

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 04:26:40 pm »
http://www.pinrepair.com/sys1/#smatrix

The lock out wire problem is discussed in this section.

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #21 on: June 10, 2008, 04:50:18 pm »
well there is no coin mechs/switchs on the coin door so i dont see any coin door lockout wire.  like i stated earlier, it appears that the previous owner or somebody wired a pushbutton switch into to 25 cent plate to control credits.  im gonna go take another look at it.

EDIT::

i wanna check the spider chips but im a little confused on how to test them.  the description is not clear enough for me.

"Testing the Input/Output Buffer and Spider Chips. In order to check the buffer chips, we will activate the buffer inputs, and see if there is a corresponding response at the buffer outputs. The buffers chips are Z29 (7405) and Z27 (74H21), both right below the DIP switch. Also Z9 (7405) and Z8 (7404), both at the bottom left of the CPU board. Use an alligator clip connected to ground to activate the buffer inputs, which will control the buffer output pins. A logic probe is best for checking the output, but a DMM set to DC volts can be used."

it says use an alligator clip connected to ground to activate the buffer inputs.  so i assume a alligator clip connected to ground metal piece with a wire leading to where?

the first pin to check is:

Ground Z29 pin 1 (input) and check pin 2 (output).

does the other end of the wire go to pin one?  then using my DMM i put the positive end in pin 2?  where does the neg end of the DMM go?  or am i totally misunderstanding this?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 05:15:04 pm by grbgemen »

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #22 on: June 10, 2008, 06:14:38 pm »
so i should probably repin everything next? 

what all do i need?  i see like three different types of pins on the pbresource website.

man this is a lot of work.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 08:39:32 pm by grbgemen »

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2008, 07:33:55 am »
Have you inspected the connectors like I said earlier? Have you taken pics? We are getting to a point where you have to start supplying visual input to get better advice.

If your board edges look like this:


And your connectors look like this:



Then you will have tons of issues and your switch matrix can go nuts.

Personally, testing the spider chips is a waste of time. There is a list of things you can check that will pretty much tell you if you have a fried spider chip or two. With a scope, it takes like 5 minutes to figure that out. The guide then goes into a detailed check of the spider chips, but why? You can't reasonably replace them.

You can test the board by soldering an led and resistor across the inputs of the top/right most display chip, and then connecting only the top left power connector to the board. That will take all of the connectors out of the equation. That procedure is outlined in the repair guide. If the led comes on after 5 seconds, you have a booting board and know the hanging problem is in the connectors.

And yes, you really do need to bite the bullet and repin the connectors. It is a royal pain in the ass to get started, but gets easier as you go. Proper tools are an absolute requirement.

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2008, 01:38:31 pm »
i apologize, i thought u wanted to see pictures of what condition the machine was in.  didnt even think about you wanting to see the connections.

but last night i started looking at the pins and i think they do need to be replaced.  i ordered some new pins last night.  gonna try the LED test when i get home from work.

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2008, 03:04:26 pm »
Yeah I mostly want to see overall pics of the machine, but I would also like to see a high res pic of each board in the backbox.


grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: New PSU problems!
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2008, 03:34:21 pm »
here is some quick pictures.  the connector tabs on each board are about the same condition all around as the picture posted.  same with the terminals in each connector.  i have the back glass off of the machine for now.  the machine is also not on its legs at the moment.

EDIT::  also, i did hook up a LED to the top left chip like the repair guide states and it does light up after 5 seconds. 
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 03:37:47 pm by grbgemen »

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2008, 03:47:42 pm »
From the looks of it, you have gotten one of two things:

1) a Home use only machine
2) a restored and very well cared for machine.

From what I see there, you have a darn nice machine. More pics please. Oh, and judging by the condition of your J5 connector, I don't think repinning is as much of a priority now...

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2008, 04:23:35 pm »
The gottliebs from that era have held up well cosmetically, and this one is no exception.

While true, as far as I can tell the backglass has no flaking. There is no visible ball swirl on the playfield. That puts this one a step above "run of the mill" - especially for $250.

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2008, 04:41:31 pm »
as you can see, the cabinet is a little beat up.  some scratches and dents, but it should clean up nicely. 

few other things:

tried wiggling the j5 and j6 connector.  and the picture i posted earlier of the connector was the one right below the battery.

also, i removed the switch from the front coin door that was through the 25 cent plate(you can see the whole in the pictures).  this leaves me with 5 wires attached to nothing on my coin door.

-one red
-one orange/white
-one brown w/stripe
-two yellow

the two yellow were twisted together and attached to one terminal on the switch.  the orange/white was attached to another terminal.  this left the brown and red wire.

i just touched the red wire to the two yellows twisted together and the machine blew up...haha jk.  there was a tiny connection spark.  the sound chime dinged a little tune.  i heard some clicks.  quickly i glanced at the score board and saw some numbers other than zero displayed.  and then that was it.

i tried to repeat the same thing but nothing.

EDIT::  Correction, two sets of two yellow wires.  the brown wire as a white stripe on it.  orange has white stripe also.  i assume that the orange/white and two yellows go to one coin switch and teh same for the brown and other yellows.  question is, what is this red wire. 

and i was testing some resistors for continuity on the bottom power board and found one that is not showing any.  i will get a pic really quick

EDIT2::  Last picture.  some type diodes.  second and third from the left have no continuity.  if you look at the bottom picture, you will see the orange/white wire i mentioned above, and the brown/white wire.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 05:02:01 pm by grbgemen »

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2008, 04:59:48 pm »

tried wiggling the j5 and j6 connector.  and the picture i posted earlier of the connector was the one right below the battery.



i just touched the red wire to the two yellows twisted together and the machine blew up...haha jk.  there was a tiny connection spark.  the sound chime dinged a little tune.  i heard some clicks.  quickly i glanced at the score board and saw some numbers other than zero displayed.  and then that was it.

i tried to repeat the same thing but nothing.

Jim meant the small connector to the left of J5. That is the one that was under the original on-board battery and the one that gets the business end of battery damage.

The tones you heard was a coin credit. That is a good thing. The clicks you heard was probably the drop targets resetting.

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2008, 05:18:49 pm »
isnt the j6 connector to the left of j5 on the cpu board? or does he wanna see the board terminal where the connector connects?

in the last picture i posted above, the first three from the left have no continuity.  i saw the first one flash blue while messing with them wires again.  looks like im going to have to replace those.  what are they and where can i get them?  rat shack?

i have also noticed some random knocking.  like i will power the machine on and a minute later i will hear the ball kick go off.

according to the guide, looks like they are:

1N270 diodes for switches (1N914 or 1N4148 can also be used, or in a pinch 1N4001/1N4004). ratshack does carry those.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 05:24:18 pm by grbgemen »

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2008, 06:57:18 pm »
well how about these pictures.  first one is the back of the driver board.  not sure if its supposed to be that way or not.  other two are on the CPU. 

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #33 on: June 12, 2008, 12:23:57 pm »
hmm i thought the pictures came out pretty clear.  guess the last one was a little blurry on the left side.  but i did have macro mode on.

i will see what i can do today.

also, what do you mean jam the reset relay closed?  how?

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #34 on: June 12, 2008, 12:28:50 pm »

also, what do you mean jam the reset relay closed?  how?

I asked the same question once with a guy who had restored a Hulk pin. Here is what he replied:

It means to short the reset line to ground. It's temporary at the time of troubleshooting - if you leave reset at ground the chips heat up. It effectively bypasses the reset circuitry which is just a delay circuit.

The check is fairly simple for the reset circuit and is covered in the repair guide.

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2008, 01:10:27 pm »
Well, that's good information but not what I meant.

There's a relay mounted on the underside of the playfield, towards the back.  Most of the coils on Gottlieb System1s are not MPU controlled.  You can manually actuate the relay and then all your coils are hot, enabling you to bat the ball around and hit the pops and slings.  It's more a novelty than anything, but it's fun to mess around with. 

I think if you knock down all the drop targets or land the ball in a saucer, you're out of luck, though.



Yeah, that will effectively do nothing towards solving your problem. ;D I'd advise you against manually screwing with those relays, just in case you mess them up.

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 07:03:40 pm »
so last week i broke down and ordered a new Ni-wumpf replacement board.  ::)  i was hoping that i could get this board working and i could just sell the new replacement but that didnt happen.  the new board came today and i quickly read the manual and plugged it in.  set the board to Sinbad and hit power switch.  couple seconds went buy and the game started dinging and sure enough it worked.  i reached in the coin door and tapped the two switch wires together and added a credit.  next thing i know an hour has passed and im still playing the pinball.  :laugh2:

all the switches, relays, etc... work wonderfully.  i was so afraid i was going to get this pin running and then have all the solenoids be bad or something.

one issue still stands though.  when a credit is inserted and the ball is kicked out, the game gives points out.  like 30 points or something.  it also happens when either the left or right flipper is triggered.  basically you can just sit there and rack up points and not have to worry about the ball. 

thoughts?

EDIT:: fixed it.  had a switch that was closed behind one of the drop targets.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 05:14:28 pm by grbgemen »

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2008, 10:22:17 am »
What are you going to do with the old board?

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2008, 08:31:30 pm »
What are you going to do with the old board?

my plan is to blow it up on the 4th of july.  ;D

but seriously, im not sure.  sell it?  keep it?


anyways, the pinball has been running great.  every once and a while, i noticed it will out of nowhere just tilt.  sometimes it will un-tilt itself after a bit while other times i have to shut the game off before one can play again.

grbgemen

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2008, 09:29:52 pm »
alright, i got all the parts to re pin the connectors, that will be my next task. 

i can always tell when its going to tilt as the displays start flickering pretty bad and random lights in the center of the play field start to light.  there is also a faint buzzing sound that i hear when it is tilted.

anyways, the play is pretty fun.  ive never played a pinball with double flippers like this.  its not very fun when the ball goes right through the two flippers.  ::)

little difficult to get the ball up top but i havent really had the time to master that.  definitely a quarter eater or i just really suck.  prolly the ladder.   ;D

shardian

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2008, 04:25:14 pm »
Get ready to have lots of fun when figuring out a good method for pulling pins too.  ;)

I used the small jewelers flat head, and ground down the sides to make it a bit thinner. Then I wrapped the handle in some fabric for padding. Those pins are a complete ---smurfette---!

Ken Layton

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Re: First pinball. cleaning the playfield. UPDATED: pictures added
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 12:56:08 am »
Updating this old thread. Great Plains sells the correct removal tool # 11-03-0016 for pulling out the system 1 terminals from the connector housings:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=140

  
 

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