My New Asteroids has problems

[quanlee]

I just aquired a new Asteroids. This machine is nearly mint on the outside, it has been sitting in a warehouse for 20 years. The guy who owns it didn't want it anymore, so he asked me to take a look at it, and if I wanted it. YEAH... WHY NOT, RIGHT?

I powered this thing up and it doesn't work. The lights on the player one and two start (they are cone shaped buttons with red lights on the top), they flash. There is a red light on the main board that lights up, but the screen just shows random pixel flashes. I put a coin in, pressed player one start, nothing.

He says it was working a year ago, when they first decided to drag it out and try to get rid of it. Since then, it's been sitting in that same warehouse, getting cold, hot, and so on.

What's my best bet to determine what might be wrong with this?

Here is a picture of one similar from KLOV. Mine has the original coin door with the round slots. The coin box is very small on the inside as well. I'm thinking this is a pretty early model.

[Matthew Fisher]

You might start here:

http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html

Does it play blind?  If so, sounds like it's got a monitor problem.  Usually pretty easy to fix, and the b/w vector monitors are pretty robust once fixed.  If it's got the round coin door, your monitor almost certainly is going to be the Electrohome G05-801, which they used on the first 18,000 or so, not the later 802 or 19V2000.  Tons of repair info on the net, if you are somewhat handy with a soldering iron and multimeter.  Board repair is way beyond my capabilities, but you can always pay someone to do that.  Good luck, and good find! 

Funny how they always worked "last time we had it out, turned it on, etc."   

[quanlee]

No, it's not playing blind. Unless I just don't know how to run it, maybe I should check out a working unit. I assume if I put in a coin, press the one player start, it should begin the unmistakable "thump, thump, thump.... " sound. It's not doing that.

Here is what it does:

1. Start Buttons Flash constantly.
2. Monitor shows random flashes of pixels, not all over, just in very sparse areas.
3. No feed back to coins, or player 1 or 2 buttons being pressed.
4. No sound.
5. The main board has some sort of a red light on it, showing power is there.

I haven't picked this up yet. When I get it home, I'll know more.

[CheffoJeffo]

Are you getting rapidly, alternating flashes on the P1/P2 buttons ?

EDIT: I guess so ...

If so, there is an error (they shouldn't light until coin-up).

Grab a manual and put the machine into test -- listen carefully to any tones that are produced (and you may need to restart the machine to properly count the tones).

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/Asteroids/

Also grab a copy of Atari's The Book while you are at it

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/

EDIT2: I am thinking RAM error, which could be the result of a voltage problem. Clean the edge connector and check voltages. Everybody seems to recommend swapping out the Big Blue cap, so I always have. After all of that, I still had a RAM problem that was fixed by replacing the RAM (thanks MikesArcade for the RAM and sockets).

 

[quanlee]

Are you getting rapidly, alternating flashes on the P1/P2 buttons ?

EDIT: I guess so ...

If so, there is an error (they shouldn't light until coin-up).

Grab a manual and put the machine into test -- listen carefully to any tones that are produced (and you may need to restart the machine to properly count the tones).

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/Asteroids/

Also grab a copy of Atari's The Book while you are at it

http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Atari_Kee/

EDIT2: I am thinking RAM error, which could be the result of a voltage problem. Clean the edge connector and check voltages. Everybody seems to recommend swapping out the Big Blue cap, so I always have. After all of that, I still had a RAM problem that was fixed by replacing the RAM (thanks MikesArcade for the RAM and sockets).

 

Thanks! Will do.

[Level42]

Are you getting rapidly, alternating flashes on the P1/P2 buttons ?

EDIT: I guess so ...

If so, there is an error (they shouldn't light until coin-up).

Unless if it's on free-play.

The flashing is a bit of a good sign as the CPU is at least running. Are you sure the coin switch(es) work ? Maybe it doesn't register the credit. You could try to set it on free-play.

[CheffoJeffo]

Are you getting rapidly, alternating flashes on the P1/P2 buttons ?

EDIT: I guess so ...

If so, there is an error (they shouldn't light until coin-up).

Unless if it's on free-play. Or doesn't Asteroids have free-play ?

Fair enough. ..  ...

If the flashes are rapid (relative term, I know), I suspect an error. Putting the machine in TEST ought to reveal the truth quickly enough.

[quanlee]

I was poking around inside and saw that test switch last night, didn't know what it was, but flipped it anyway. I don't recall hearing any tones, but who knows if the volume was turned down. I tried to turn the volume knob and it seemed like it wasn't moving.

I'll check it out, THANKS!!

[RetroACTIVE]

Dont forget to check the voltage on the board... and double check that edge connector on the board... the +5 burns up on these. 

[Jeff AMN]

Before getting too technical, order a new Big Blue cap from Bob Roberts (don't get a NOS one, get Bob's) and a fuse replacement kit. Those are very basic, but very important. You never know, you might luck out and get an easy fix based on that and get to avoid all the technical stuff for now.

[D_Zoot]

After a reset, or at initial power on, both P1 and P2 lights are in the on state, that is the default hardware state.  Once game code starts to execute one of the first thing the code does is shut the lights off.

Flashing lights, random vectors being seen and lack of test mode functionality indicates the board isn't running, or is running random code.  The lights flashing indicate it's watchdogging, or constantly trying to reset the CPU.


Asteroids will behave in exactly this manner if the +5vdc is low, either from connection problems (edge connector or power brick connections are typical) or from an AR-1 problem.   The +5vdc should be checked prior to trying to troubleshoot this any further.

Once +5vdc has been verified, reseating the socketed IC's would be the next step.  Poor pin contact between the roms and sockets can corrupt the code as the CPU is attempting to read it.


Start there and see where that get's ya!   


D

[quanlee]

Ok... I have this machine in my basement now. After further inspection, the volume was turned all the way down. Here is what I found.

1. Turn on in standard mode, there is a high pitch beeping, kind of like the free ship beep at 10k. It's constant.
2. Change to test mode, there are 3 meduim pitch beeps, then 1 low pitch beep, which I believe means the fourth ram chip is failing, or has failed.
3. However, if I turn it on in test mode, it beeps one medium pitch, and one low pitch.
4. If you turn the volume up quite a bit, there is a lot of hum, kind of like the hum you would get on an older TV when bright graphics were displayed.

The machine is in excellent condition inside and out. It came with a key, but the key doesn't fit the coin door or the back panel. The stamp on the inside of the cabinet, in red ink reads Dec 13 1979.

I'm thinking I should check the +5vdc but I'm not sure where to do that. Any help would be appreciated. I actually need a picture drawn for me, I'm pretty much a noob here, ask RETRO.

[quanlee]

Here's pics...

[RetroACTIVE]

Come on now... you should be an ol' pro by now! 

Looks all original to me... your monitor has original caps... and my guess "big blue" is of the same age...

So definitely check your +5... You will need to check your schematic... and find out what pin it is on the boards edge connector.. I'm pretty sure its second up from the bottom on the edge connector... but check schematic...

Humming can be attributed to a bad big blue... or also bad electrolytics on the Audio/Regulator board (the one with the big black heat sink on it)

I bought a broken Asteroids board myself on purpose.. to "educate" myself... needless to say... I've not passed the test yet.

[quanlee]

Come on now... you should be an ol' pro by now! 

Looks all original to me... your monitor has original caps... and my guess "big blue" is of the same age...

So definitely check your +5... You will need to check your schematic... and find out what pin it is on the boards edge connector.. I'm pretty sure its second up from the bottom on the edge connector... but check schematic...

Humming can be attributed to a bad big blue... or also bad electrolytics on the Audio/Regulator board (the one with the big black heat sink on it)

I bought a broken Asteroids board myself on purpose.. to "educate" myself... needless to say... I've not passed the test yet.

On the other board you helped me with, I put one MM lead on the wire that was supposed to be +5vdc, and the other MM lead on another wire, which I assume was the ground.

On this board, if I put one MM lead on the edge connector (pin second from the bottom) where do I put the other MM lead??

Also, which one of those components is "big blue", looks like there are two big blue capaciters in the monitor.

[RetroACTIVE]

Come on now... you should be an ol' pro by now! 

Looks all original to me... your monitor has original caps... and my guess "big blue" is of the same age...

So definitely check your +5... You will need to check your schematic... and find out what pin it is on the boards edge connector.. I'm pretty sure its second up from the bottom on the edge connector... but check schematic...

Humming can be attributed to a bad big blue... or also bad electrolytics on the Audio/Regulator board (the one with the big black heat sink on it)

I bought a broken Asteroids board myself on purpose.. to "educate" myself... needless to say... I've not passed the test yet.

On the other board you helped me with, I put one MM lead on the wire that was supposed to be +5vdc, and the other MM lead on another wire, which I assume was the ground.

On this board, if I put one MM lead on the edge connector (pin second from the bottom) where do I put the other MM lead??

Also, which one of those components is "big blue", looks like there are two big blue capaciters in the monitor.

Yes you are correct ... you want to connect the other to ground... I think that ground runs all over the asteroids pcb.. there are ton of test points and they are clearly labled "GND"... any one will do.  Set your meter to DC volts.

Big blue is on the power block in the bottom of the cabinet... its the main filter cap... those blue caps you have pic'd are not big blue..  The big blue located in the power block is much fatter  than those you have pic'd... also... may not be blue... could be brown or black... none the less... its a big fat cap.

[Level42]

Big Blue's: The original still in the Power Supplies, the new Bob Roberts' replacements next to them...(black).

I've also seen grey one's (Irish built cabs).

[quanlee]

Ok... I checked the edge connector with my MM. The +5vdc wires (red and white) are reading +6.13vdc.

As far as I can tell from the schematic, there is one other wire that is supposed to be +5vdc and it's red. I couldn't get any reading from that. Maybe that one isn't power going into the board, but power coming back out??

The schematic isn't very clear on wire/pin placement in that edge connector. So in the process of poking around I blew my fuses. I must have hit the 36VAC, because it created quite a light show in the bottom of my cabinet. I pulled the fuses and they were blown.

So, I'm planning on ordering a big blue, and fuses from Bob Roberts.

Any other suggestions related to the +5vdc reading +6.13vdc??

Also, I notice now that when I turn on the machine, there is a mechanism on the coin door that gets engaged. Is that the coin lock out? It's in the center between the coin slots.

[RetroACTIVE]

If that is your 5V... then 6.3 is too high... Have you tried pulling off the edge connector and examining the board and re seating it? 

and Yeah... Asteroids schematics kind of suck there are different rev boards with subtle diffs... but the wiring is all the same regardless.

That is the lockout coil energizing.

[quanlee]

If that is your 5V... then 6.3 is too high... Have you tried pulling off the edge connector and examining the board and re seating it? 

and Yeah... Asteroids schematics kind of suck there are different rev boards with subtle diffs... but the wiring is all the same regardless.

That is the lockout coil energizing.

Yeah, those are the same diagrams I was looking at last night.

Yes, I removed the edge connector, used a pencil eraser to clean the contacts on the board, and replaced it several times. I also wiggled the edge connector back and forth a couple of times.

So if 6.13vdc is too high, how do I fix that? Big Blue? New Power Supply?

[mcfreak]

There is a small pot on the Audio/Regulator board that adjusts the 5+.  Tie the multimeter to ground and 5+ on the AR board and adjust it.

[quanlee]

There is a small pot on the Audio/Regulator board that adjusts the 5+.  Tie the multimeter to ground and 5+ on the AR board and adjust it.

AWESOME. Do you know how I would identify this pot? Is it the only pot on this board?

[mcfreak]

Here ya go...

[quanlee]

Here ya go...

So, assuming the 6.13vdc was my problem, and I replace my fried fuses, should this thing work? Do I need to be concerned about replacing the big blue cap?

[mcfreak]

You should always try and replace the caps just so you know it will have a long life.  It still seems like those beeps are pointing to a bad chip.  You should get yourself a chip puller (or carefully use a flat head) and reseat all chips on the main board.

Also cleaning the edge connector on the main PCB with an eraser seems to help some of these.

[quanlee]

You should always try and replace the caps just so you know it will have a long life.  It still seems like those beeps are pointing to a bad chip.  You should get yourself a chip puller (or carefully use a flat head) and reseat all chips on the main board.

Also cleaning the edge connector on the main PCB with an eraser seems to help some of these.

I cleaned one side of the edge on the main PCB already, didn't take the board out to clean the other yet.

Chip puller? It looks to me like the memory chips are soldered, not just pushed in?? Is that possible? If they aren't soldered, I can pull them pretty easy, and replace them.

[mcfreak]

Right, if they are socketed then you can pull, clean, and re-seat.  If you know the exact chip you think is bad, you can de-solder, add in a socket (radio shack, frys, etc) and then replace in the socket.

I've learned a lot by reading the asteroids repair guide which I think someone already posted... but here it is anyway. http://www.ionpool.net/arcade/asteroidtech/asteroidsrepair.html

First and foremost try and get that running at 5 volts.  Make sure you retest the 5+ on the main PCB once you have it adjusted.  It can change with the PCB plugged in.

[quanlee]

First and foremost try and get that running at 5 volts.  Make sure you retest the 5+ on the main PCB once you have it adjusted.  It can change with the PCB plugged in.

When I tested the +5vdc, I just tested the edge connector, and not the main PCB itself. If edge connector is on the main PCB, where do I test for +5vdc, just off the printed circuit board?

[mcfreak]

First and foremost try and get that running at 5 volts.  Make sure you retest the 5+ on the main PCB once you have it adjusted.  It can change with the PCB plugged in.

When I tested the +5vdc, I just tested the edge connector, and not the main PCB itself. If edge connector is on the main PCB, where do I test for +5vdc, just off the printed circuit board?

Yup, there should be a nice test point labeled 5V and GCC(ground).

[D_Zoot]

First and foremost try and get that running at 5 volts.  Make sure you retest the 5+ on the main PCB once you have it adjusted.  It can change with the PCB plugged in.

When I tested the +5vdc, I just tested the edge connector, and not the main PCB itself. If edge connector is on the main PCB, where do I test for +5vdc, just off the printed circuit board?

Just to clarify something in this thread:

Measuring the +5vdc with the game board disconnected WILL result in high readings as the power supply can't regulate unloaded.

You will probably not be able to adjust the +5vdc with the game board disconnected, it will always run high even with the pot turned fully down.

You must measure and adjust the power supply with the board connected.  The "GND" and "5V" test points on the game board (as mentioned above) are the best place to measure since that's the actual voltage present on the game board and it allows you to adjust for voltage drop between the PS and game board.


D
 

[quanlee]

After testing the +5vdc from the test points, all is well, they are fine.

The the machine is still not working. I get 4 tones in test mode, 3 medium, and the last a low tone. I'm reading this as the fourth RAM chip is bad.

I pulled the PCB last night to look at it closely. I cleaned the edge connector, and some rotting foam off the back of the board, and put it back in. That didn't seem to help at all.

As far as I can tell, the RAM is not socketed, and since I'm not familiar with desoldering, or soldering on circuit boards, this is pretty much a dead end for me.

Another problem is that the drawing of the PCB does not match my PCB exactly, so I'm not sure where the ram chips are exactly. The location specified in the drawings has 4 similar chips, but one of them (the fourth) is a bit different. So I'm not sure I'm looking at the right ones anyway.

Assuming I can get someone to pull that RAM chip, what do I replace it with? Should I replace all 4 chips with something more modern?

I have a big blue on order from Bob Roberts, should get it tomorrow. Not sure if this will help.

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated.

[CheffoJeffo]

I had the exact same symptoms. I removed the old RAM chips (and broke a trace or two in the process  ), put in sockets and new RAM. I got the sockets and RAM from MikesArcade.

[mcfreak]

If you aren't comfortable with a soldering iron you could always just send it in to an experienced tech for repair.  Maybe post something here or on KLOV asking for a good repair guy.  That way you know for a fact that all bad parts will be replaced.

[quanlee]

Yeah, I thought of that, in fact I just e-mailed this guy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250248197516

Anyone ever dealt with them?

[Level42]

I guess that cost would (almost) buy you a good working board.

Drop Mark Spaeth a line at the KLOV forum.

[Level42]

Or have a look here how to replace that RAM IC:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=63654.msg652707#msg652707

[RetroACTIVE]

Yeah, I thought of that, in fact I just e-mailed this guy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250248197516

Anyone ever dealt with them?

I can replace ram chips for you for free... just pay shipping... I can do a quick test of the board... but not sure if I would be able to do much beyond just simple RAM fix... I've got a supply of 2114's and some asteroids parts... but pretty limited on some of the more unique parts (ADC's etc...)

[CheffoJeffo]

That's a nice thing to do ... once again ...

 

[quanlee]

RetroACTIVE is "The Bombdiggity".

[Level42]

Cool Retro, I'd do the same but it's probably not much sense shipping it across the atlantic....

Retro, I'm looking for a couple 2114's do you sell them or is it personal stock ?