Defender Thread (was 5/2/08: The Day I No Longer Suck!)

[TOK]

And I have sucked for a long time!

Since 1981 to be exact. The day I put 25 cents in a Defender machine and had my first guy obliterated before I reached 300 points. I think the whole game was just over by 1000 points and lasted less than a minute.

I tried and tried, but I just couldn't get good at Defender. Eventually, I gave up. Other games came easy, I could play Moon Patrol 40 minutes for the same quarter that bought me 5 minutes of Defender. So away Defender went. I always wanted to play, but never wanted the beatdown.

About a year later, I stumbled across another machine at Spaceport... Stargate. Defender with even more buttons.
I tried, I still sucked. Oh sure, I could fudge a game and get 40,000 or so by warping with 4 humanoids, but that was a ruse. The game still didn't last much longer. Stargate fell to Xevious, another game that I could play for 45 minutes on a quarter. When you have 3 bucks to last you all day, that kind of stuff matters.

When MAME came out, I was still haunted by Defender. Like a stalker that builds a shrine to a starlet that would never be nice to him, I built a shrine to Defender and Stargate, a bartop with a dedicated control panel. It didn't do much to lessen the cruelty.

Here is the way I always broke down Defender scores... I'm sure there are guys there that regularly get 50,000 on their first guy. Thats not me, so I grade on a curve:

0-30,000... The Rabble (aka me for 24 years).
30,000-99,000... Average
100,000 to 499,000... Good
500,000+ A God.

I've muddled in the Average range for over a year since building the bartop. Today was an ordinary day. I cut the grass then decided to play a game of Defender. I don't even have the cabinet in the house, its out on the garage workbench where it can't taunt me constantly.

I lost my first guy at 9250. The story of my life. Then something happened... I was getting 25,000 or 30,000 per guy.
When I hit 70,000, I knew I made the Top 10. This is a hiscore.dat file that has been on there since I build the cab. It basically represents my 10 luckiest breaks...

80,000.... 90,000... I started getting a little freaked out.
95,000 and no smart bombs! 98,000... Then I heard it!

wah-wah-Wah-Wah-WAH-WAH-WAH! The free man sound that liberated me. Yes, today, 27 years after I was first mauled by Defender I have graduated to a Good player. Sure, it's only Good by my calculations, but I'll take it.

I'll be in the garage having a beer if anyone wants to talk to a hero. 

[Ginsu Victim]

Hard game. Good job.

[FrizzleFried]

And I have sucked for a long time!

...that is far as I got...or want to get.  All I have to say is,  "WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT!"

 

[TOK]

And I have sucked for a long time!

...that is far as I got...or want to get.  All I have to say is,  "WHATEVER FLOATS YOUR BOAT!"

 

Your obvious bitterness cannot dilute my happiness, you, you... you Defender sucker-at'er. 

[TheShanMan]

It's great to read this. I have been in the same boat as you all these years - fascinated by it as a kid but quickly decided it wasn't worth my quarters. It's strange, but in a way it has been a favorite, yet I wouldn't hardly ever play it.

Then all these years I've used mame I still haven't played it because I didn't have "proper controls". Now that I have them, I've decided to start playing it until I'm "good" at it (my standards are definitely below yours at this point - I'd consider 30,000 to be good!) and as a matter of fact, I just got started yesterday! I'm not even close to breaking 10,000 yet, but that's because I'm in essence a Defender newbie.

Thanks for the extra motivation! (one day I can be like TOK )

[Fozzy The Bear]

And I have sucked for a long time!

Nahhhh!!! You still suck! LOL  You only get to be good when you're on your third free man.

There used to be one kid in my local arcade who could play on one credit for five hours or more.  They banned him from the arcade.... LOL  Now that sucks!!

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[TOK]

Well I guess I'm better than I thought, because at 100,000, I was on my 10th free man.
Thanks for the backhanded confidence boost! 

[TOK]

It's great to read this. I have been in the same boat as you all these years - fascinated by it as a kid but quickly decided it wasn't worth my quarters. It's strange, but in a way it has been a favorite, yet I wouldn't hardly ever play it.

Then all these years I've used mame I still haven't played it because I didn't have "proper controls". Now that I have them, I've decided to start playing it until I'm "good" at it (my standards are definitely below yours at this point - I'd consider 30,000 to be good!) and as a matter of fact, I just got started yesterday! I'm not even close to breaking 10,000 yet, but that's because I'm in essence a Defender newbie.

Thanks for the extra motivation! (one day I can be like TOK )

I had a buddy that was so good at this when it was in the place local to us. He'd linger on the first level until he had most, if not all, of the humanoids on his ship. I think they had the difficulty cranked, because they'd pick up like crazy, 2 or 3 at a time right from the first level. It actually worked to my buddies advantage, because he could rack up so many points early. I know he'd have 5 guys going into the second level from doing that.

Think his average was between 300,000 and 400,000. He never got into Stargate. He's still around but I don't see him much. I should ask if he wants to play it again.

[CrazyKongFan]

They had a Defender in the competition at Pinball at the Zoo in Kalamazoo MI a couple weeks ago. I could only manage about 35K, the guy who won got 195K...Blew everyone else away

[jilted]

good story and i bet it could be told by a bunch of us (the defender beatdowns and stretching your arcade budget)

i'm hoping i can get decent at it
i never really play it on mame because of the controls

i want to be an all time greatest

[Paul Olson]

I never got past the beatdown stage. I probably never lasted over a minute on Defender. Good job!

[robC]

Same story here, except the part about getting good at it now! I have had my mame up for about 2 months, and I play it regularly, but I still suck.

For anyone who plays it well on the standard 6 button fighter layout...how do you have your controls configured for Defender?

I remember at the skating rink when I was a kid, the couple dudes who used to rock out at Defender were like rock stars there. I would play and get destroyed within the first 2-3 levels. Some day I will be a Defender rockstar too! I will!

Rob

[Fozzy The Bear]

For anyone who plays it well on the standard 6 button fighter layout...how do you have your controls configured for Defender?

As it would be in the arcade..... Stick set for up down only. Thrust, fire, Hyperspace and smartbomb on the buttons. It's the only way to play it well.

I had to sell my real Defender a while ago, but to be honest, set up as above it doesn't feel that much different.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Spacejack]

Ah, but the thing about using a 6-button fighter layout for Defender is that usually there's not just ONE six button fighter layout.  Using both, you can get a reasonable approximation of the real thing.  Reverse at the left thumb is key, and the only real drawback is you have to reach past a joystick to hit hyperspace... not that I ever really do anyway, I'm not good enough to really incorporate hyperspace into my play.  Haven't looked at the Stargate panel yet to find a good place for inviso.

Now, anyone who goes whole hog and does a first-generation Defender play using ONLY buttons... that's the kind of psycho that takes out a machinegun nest with a broken 7up bottle.

[Ummon]

I used to split up the layout on my panel. I think I changed it though to


reverse****fire*****hyperspace


thrust*****blank****smart bombs


Early on in my Mame experience I tried to combine thrust and reverse with side-ways stick motion but didn't come up with something that worked. They really need to be separate. I think on the console ports it worked because they coded it so 'right' or 'left' turned only once and then was always thrust in that direction until you moved the other way. It's more intuitive but I think arcade game designers were heavy into separated functions.

[ark_ader]

I played it on the Xbox project yesterday to see how Defender and Stargate performs under a console.

I had terrible hand - eye coordination back in the day when this game came out, but was able to defy my arcade buddies on Dig Dug and Pengo.  Probably it was due to all those cool buttons you can press during play that was overwhelming.  Yes there were older kids that had ships galore and played for hours too.  Fun to watch, especially when they play without smartbombs.

The Xbox controls for the hand controller is confusing, and until I get a control panel built for Stargate, I will hold out playing it again.  BTW MameoX plays all the Williams games perfectly, freaking me out playing Sinistar and getting a bit too cocky playing Joust.

I love Stargate more wilth the Ilybian dogfights and cramped starfields in which to do battle, than Defender, but I'm sure that will change with the CP. 

Congrats TOK on your scores.  Knowing you, you will double those scores in no time. 

[TOK]

For anyone who plays it well on the standard 6 button fighter layout...how do you have your controls configured for Defender?

Rob, before I had a dedicated Defender panel, I tried it with the 6 button fighter layout. It didn't work out due to the proximity of the thumb (reverse) button. I ended up adding a thumb button and it was pretty playable. Here is what I did.

   123           123
O 456        O 456
  7

Hopefully that won't get mangled... I use the player one stick for up and down, the player 1 #7 button for reverse.
On the two player side, I use 2 for fire, 3 for thrust and 4 for smartbomb.
The only real compromise was hyperspace for defender. Since that was the least used button, I just mapped it to button 5 on the two player side.

I also later added a second #7 button to the player 2 side that was the Inviso for Stargate.
It was a compromise, but I played this way for a year and the two player button layout approximated the Defender thrust, fire and smart bomb layout.

[TOK]

I did play some more today and managed a score in the high 70's and another in the low 80's. The thing with Defender is there are always throw away games in between when you get crappy breaks. I had a couple 20 thousand something games between the 70 and 80 thousands.

[TheShanMan]

I'm trying a layout which has thrust mapped to left and right. It's not perfect but I kind of like it. I'm not sure if I'll stick with it long term though - once I get a little better at playing it I will probably switch to using 5 buttons and up/down to be a little more true to the original.

[CrazyKongFan]

I never got past the beatdown stage. I probably never lasted over a minute on Defender. Good job!

What's the "beatdown stage"? 

[TheShanMan]

The first level.

[FrizzleFried]

I just played Defender for the first time on my MAME cab...

...the first time I played in about 20 years I'd figure...

I played 2 games.  High score - about 73,000 and change.  Is that good?

[TOK]

Yes, thats good. Funny how some games are still natural to you even after a long time away. When I first played Moon Patrol on MAME, I easily made it through the first "moon" to Z.

Can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday, but I could remember where all the tricky rocks and craters were in Moon Patrol. 

[danny_galaga]

i call BS, that screenshot says TIM, not TOK 

[Singapura]

Time to grow a mullet and sell hot sauce?

[Dudeman]

You are my hero.

Defender has always been the bane of my existence.

[arzoo]

Any good Defender player can easily roll the game

The real trick is to come as close to 1mil without rolling it - which is not easy as every kill from 990,000 to 999,999 yields an extra ship. The only way to kill yourself off is by running into the enemy shots (which are worth 50 points as I recall).

I was never as good on Stargate, but some say it's easier than Defender once you get good.

It's tough to simulate the control layout on a MAME cab - mostly because of the joystick. It must be very short with a short throw and the reverse button needs to be directly under your thumb while using the joystick.

Defender is my favorite game of all time! 

[TheShanMan]

This thread has me seriously considering putting a duplicate button next to my joystick just for reverse in defender!

[(+_+)]

I was just mentioning these 2 games in a different thread and yes I too suck at both. They both always scared me (probably because they sucked back my quarter faster than you can say, "Holy crap. I just wasted a another quarter on this god forsaken, money grubbing, cheating, thief of a game!"

Are there any tricks that can help improve my 15 K score?

[arzoo]

I was just mentioning these 2 games in a different thread and yes I too suck at both. They both always scared me (probably because they sucked back my quarter faster than you can say, "Holy crap. I just wasted a another quarter on this god forsaken, money grubbing, cheating, thief of a game!"

Are there any tricks that can help improve my 15 K score?

• Learn to use the radar - it's the only way to line up shots for rescues.
• Learn to reverse-fire-reverse; you'll need this to kill Mutants, Baiters, and the occasional Bomber.
• On higher levels, camp out by the last human, then carry him with you - do not put him down.
• Swarmers are easy - fly through the group, and then turn on them. If you don't go too far past the group, they will not turn back on you. Then just pick them off.
• Save smart bombs at all costs. Some players use a smart bomb at the start of each level on the Pods. Never smart bomb fewer than 3 Pods.
• Learn to use Hyperspace in emergencies - like when you're surrounded.
• Lastly, learn to fire really really fast! The more shots you put on the screen, the more kills.

A well played level will score more than 10k.

[DrBunsen]

Any good Defender player can easily roll the game

The real trick is to come as close to 1mil without rolling it - which is not easy as every kill from 990,000 to 999,999 yields an extra ship. The only way to kill yourself off is by running into the enemy shots (which are worth 50 points as I recall).

I was never as good on Stargate, but some say it's easier than Defender once you get good.

It's tough to simulate the control layout on a MAME cab - mostly because of the joystick. It must be very short with a short throw and the reverse button needs to be directly under your thumb while using the joystick.

Defender is my favorite game of all time! 

I remember when I first ran into a Defender.  It was July 1st, 1982 and I was in Monroe Michigan for my older sister's wedding (I can remember the date since it was the day of the bachelor party).  I found Defender to be tough to play but very difficult to resist.  The thing that I liked best about it was that it was physically difficult to coordinate all the controls.  I played it a pretty good bit over the next few months but never got all that good at it (I know I didn't break 100K during that period of time).

Then I ran into Stargate and it was love.  I played it to the point where it kinda got in the way of relationships.  But I did attain rather lofty skills at it.  My best game on Stargate was Valentine's day, 1984 - I played for 9 hours and 5 minutes, stopping at 8 million exactly (having to jump through the "blow up ships as you get close and then hyperspace until you blow up for no points" hoops).  I don't recall for sure how many levels that was, but I *think* I stopped in the 417th level.  (Note: If I recall correctly the levels went from level 254 to level 0 (which was still hard difficulty) and then started over at level 1 which was suddenly at initial difficulty (<edit> NOTE:  See my correction note below </edit>).  After going so fast for so many hours, going to back initial difficulty always felt like you slammed into a mountain.)  I remember that it was Valentine's day since I, um... didn't pay as much attention to my girlfriend as I should've.

Anyways, after getting so good at Stargate I decided to try out Defender again, but found it frustrating.  The timing is just different enough that if you're very very good at one you probably won't like the other.  I think the best I ever did on Defender was in the 300,000 range, which felt SO disappointing after being so good at Stargate.

I've long since lost the "Stargate callouses" on my fingers and thumbs, but I did purchase a Stargate from eBay about 8 or 9 years ago ago that I'd had mostly working, but then it developed major problems and has sat semi-dismantled for years (Real Life(tm) got in the way).  I gave another shot at fixing it about a year ago (I've got 2 full sets of boards, and upgraded to the better RAM and a switching power supply, resoldered all parts on both mainboards that I've got, etc.) but it's still not working.  Rather than fuss with it any more I'm planning to commit heresy by putting a PC into it to run MAME on it.  I know that many of you will shudder at that, but I'm at the point where I don't care.  I want to PLAY it not tinker with it.  And it'll NEVER be sold for as long as I'm capable of playing it.  But if it makes you feel better, I am keeping the original boards in place and wiring around them, so after I die if someone wants to do a proper restore they can have at it.

And if any of you were at the University of Houston during the 83-84 school year and saw the couple of Stargates on campus, yeah, that was me.    Actually, there was this other guy who was awesome as well, and there's no way I would've gone through those marathon sessions if it hadn't been for him beating my scores.  It was back and forth for several months, but once I got several games in the 6 to 8 million point range he faded away.

I'll give some of my tips for those 2 games a little later (gotta get back to work for now).  BTW - I have NO idea how good I'd be at Defender if someone put a quarter in my hand right now.  I'm pretty sure that Tim's score would remain safely on top.  But if you gave me a roll of quarters...


Bunsen

<edit>
I found this information about the levels at MAWS:

>>>>>>
Stargate attack waves 'roll over' at wave 100, which is displayed, when started and after being completed, as Wave 0. The game keeps track of the actual number of waves, even though they are not shown properly. For example, the next wave will be counted as Wave 101, even though it shows being completed as Wave 1. The game will 'roll over' again at Wave 200, which is displayed, when started and after being completed, as Wave 0 as well. The next 'roll over' occurs at Wave 256. Upon completion of Wave 255, the next wave is a wave very similar to the very first wave, except that the Firebombers shoot. This level is counted and displayed as Wave 0, and the player is awarded a bonus of Humanoids left X 0 points (the bonus for this wave is always 0 points). The next is Wave 1, and the game now plays just as if the player had started a new game (warps are now again possible up to wave 10), except the player gets to keep his score and all of his bonus ships and Smart Bombs.
<<<<<<

After reading that I can remember that they're correct about the levels going from 255 to 0 (which was slow but with shooting Firebombers).  However, I thought that the levels did go from 99 to 100 and 199 to 200.  It's been a quarter century since I was good enough to do that, so I won't argue against them.  I'll just rebuild my box and see if I can dedicate some time to getting good again and correct MAWS if they're wrong. 

Also, there are some different sets of ROMs for Stargate.  It may be that some ROMs went like they reported and some how I remembered.
</edit>

[arzoo]

I think the best I ever did on Defender was in the 300,000 range, which felt SO disappointing after being so good at Stargate.

My best Stargate score is around 350k which always bothered me since Defender I could roll.

I've long since lost the "Stargate callouses" on my fingers and thumbs

Ah yes, I remember the callouses well.

, but I did purchase a Stargate from eBay about 8 or 9 years ago ago that I'd had mostly working, but then it developed major problems and has sat semi-dismantled for years (Real Life(tm) got in the way).  I gave another shot at fixing it about a year ago (I've got 2 full sets of boards, and upgraded to the better RAM and a switching power supply, resoldered all parts on both mainboards that I've got, etc.) but it's still not working.

My Stargate is also non-operational (both board sets). 
I bought it from a Space Port in upstate NY 20 some years ago for $250. I think I paid $175 for my Defender - both were in excellent condition. Prices have gone up since then. 

[DJ_Izumi]

79 872 700 more points and you'll beat the world record.

[TOK]

DrBunsen, that was an awesome read. Thanks. 
Stargate is funny to me. I think the initial levels are a bit easier than Defender, but then it ramps up the difficulty really fast. I guess since they wanted you to exploit the Stargate play mechanic to be successful, the landers start moving the humanoids to the top of the screen really fast.

The warp was also a weakness for me. I always do it because it's easy points and couple of free guys, but it actually shortens my game. I also think Stargate contains my most hated video game enemy, those frigging spinning things that go up and down to avoid you. They shoot super fast projectiles after a couple of levels. Killing those is where I usually burn up the Inviso, just hitting it and ramming into them.

[TOK]

One thing with the wildly differing Defender vs. Stargate scores... Defender has some difficulty options, but you need a manual to figure out what each one is, they're just numbered from like 1 to 21, and many of them do nothing.

Stargates are much easier to understand and more extensive. Very possible that guys who were good at Defender but did poorly at Stargate were playing on harder settings. I think Williams' buzzword for it was Conservative. 
The Stargate that came to the corner deli where I played everything was not new. It must have been at another location for a while where guys had become very good at it. The free guys were set to 25k instead of 10k, and it was brutally hard almost immediately. I think the first time I tried playing it, I was robbed of 2 dollars in about 15 minutes.

[DrBunsen]

My best Stargate score is around 350k which always bothered me since Defender I could roll.

Heh - yeah, that timing difference between the two games bit you in the same way that it bit me.  They look and play almost exactly the same, but the timing is just a smidge different.  Even back then I couldn't tell you exactly what it was that was different, but while I could smoothly glide through Stargate I had to work like h3ll to get that 300K in Defender.

Ah yes, I remember the callouses well.

I had conflicting feelings about those callouses.  To a fellow gamer they were a sort of badge of honor.  But to my family and friends they were proof that I was spending way too much time playing Stargate.  The saving grace is that playing for hours on a quarter or two was very cheap entertainment.

My Stargate is also non-operational (both board sets). 
I bought it from a Space Port in upstate NY 20 some years ago for $250. I think I paid $175 for my Defender - both were in excellent condition. Prices have gone up since then. 

Wowsers!  Great deals, especially at the time.  I paid $800 for mine, including shipping, but I was desperate for one and jumped on the first semi-good deal I could find rather than waiting for a killer deal.  It was mostly working when I got it, but sound was wonky (fixed by replacing the sound board) and the monitor needed a cap-kit to fix the top part of the screen.

I remember when it got drop-shipped at the house, I put power to it out in the driveway to make sure it worked before the driver left, and then ended up playing about 10 games on it before I had to take a break.  It'd been years since I'd played, but by the next day I'd had a game over a million already, which is proof that the part of the brain that controls those sorts of actions/reactions can be quickly retrained.

I've got a really cool wife who is actually doing the deconstruction of a closet in our "entertainment room" where the Stargate and MAME boxes will stand.  On the MAME box she's looking forward to playing Ms. Pacman and Centipede, whereas I'm planning to Robotron until I'm smelly from stress-sweat.


Bunsen

[arzoo]

I remember when it got drop-shipped at the house, I put power to it out in the driveway to make sure it worked before the driver left, and then ended up playing about 10 games on it before I had to take a break. 

I transported the Stargate laying on its back on a rented U-Haul flatbed. Big mistake - never transport a video game in any position other than standing upright. I don't recall exactly what happened, but something punctured through the back door and smashed the video board on the end of the tube. So I didn't get to play for weeks until I had it repaired.

whereas I'm planning to Robotron until I'm smelly from stress-sweat.

I designed the control panel for my mame cab with Robotron and Smash TV in mind - in fact I just visited the [romsite name redacted] this past weekend 

[(+_+)]

I was just mentioning these 2 games in a different thread and yes I too suck at both. They both always scared me (probably because they sucked back my quarter faster than you can say, "Holy crap. I just wasted a another quarter on this god forsaken, money grubbing, cheating, thief of a game!"

Are there any tricks that can help improve my 15 K score?

• Learn to use the radar - it's the only way to line up shots for rescues.
• Learn to reverse-fire-reverse; you'll need this to kill Mutants, Baiters, and the occasional Bomber.
• On higher levels, camp out by the last human, then carry him with you - do not put him down.
• Swarmers are easy - fly through the group, and then turn on them. If you don't go too far past the group, they will not turn back on you. Then just pick them off.
• Save smart bombs at all costs. Some players use a smart bomb at the start of each level on the Pods. Never smart bomb fewer than 3 Pods.
• Learn to use Hyperspace in emergencies - like when you're surrounded.
• Lastly, learn to fire really really fast! The more shots you put on the screen, the more kills.

A well played level will score more than 10k.

Thanks arzoo!!

But what's the reason for this point

On higher levels, camp out by the last human, then carry him with you - do not put him down.

Is it to avoid having the world disappear?
BTW. I am start to love hating this game.

Thanks

[TOK]

Yes. You definitely don't want to go to space, especially if you're more than a wave away from a fresh batch of humanoids.
As the game gets harder, I always carry the first one I get, regardless of how many are left. Near the end of the wave if things are safe, I put them down. Every once in a while you'll get a crazy wave where the landers are picking up 3 at a time. Having the guy hanging on is worth risking the points for setting him down. 

[arzoo]

But what's the reason for this point

On higher levels, camp out by the last human, then carry him with you - do not put him down.

Is it to avoid having the world disappear?
 

Exactly!
Ideally you want to keep as many humans alive as possible - rescues are big points. Humans reset after every 5 levels (based on default settings) - at the higher levels pick-ups are so fast you can never keep everyone alive. But camping is not easy - staying in one place almost guarantees death.

I had a roommate in college who could fire faster than anyone - his finger was a blur on the fire button. Watching him fly at full speed through a level, hugging the landscape and picking up 7 or 8 humans was always amazing!

Here's a trick - if you're carrying a bunch of humans and a pickup occurs out of range, wait until the Lander is close to the top of the screen, then put down the humans. Usually the cpu bogs down and the code screws up causing the Lander to start from the bottom of the screen again, giving you time for a rescue.

Edit: I wonder if this bug has been simulated in MAME?

[TOK]

I've seen it happen in MAME. I've also seen the other oddity happen in MAME where you accidentally shoot the humanoid off a lander, and the lander goes through the top of the screen (where it usually mutates), then scrolls back down to the bottom and starts upwards again.

[DrBunsen]

DrBunsen, that was an awesome read. Thanks. 

It was fun to write.  Most non-gamers aren't interested in my Stargate adventures so it's kinda cool to recount to fellow gamers.  A couple of additional details to the story that are kinda interesting (at least to me...):

1) Before I started playing that 8 million point game I'd gotten a big (like 32 oz) Dr Pepper to drink during the game.  I made it a habit to go to the bathroom before starting a game, but after a few hours I REALLY had to pee again.  I could tell that I was playing better than usual and didn't want to blow the game, but when you have to pee you have to pee.  It was late but fortunately some guy wandered into the room.  He was watching me so I asked him if he played, and he said "yeah, but not like that".  I asked him if he'd take over while I went to the bathroom - I had to practically beg him to do it (he didn't want to blow my game either).  I got it down to a single non-lander on a level (either a Dynamo or a Bomber) so that he didn't have to do too much other than avoid the Baiters, Phreds and Big Reds that would come out, and told him to just avoid stuff as best he could (and don't blow up the people!) and let him take over.  I got back 3 or so minutes later and he was in the next level, dying like crazy and apologizing like crazy, and I was saying "no no - it's OK - THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU".  All I know is that I was SO thankful that he was there.  And it really was OK - I had a bunch of ships piled up and when I took back over it was still overflowing with ships.  If I recall correctly the ships piled up until there are nine, then it switched to a single, big ship with a "10" in it, and then additional small single ships.  So the most it would show is 17 ships (or was it 18??  The large-sized "10" ship, and 7 or 8 more single ships), but more would still pile up in memory.

2) When I was closing in on 8 million and I was wanting to close out the game I started blowing up ships, and counting as I went.  I knew I was doing well, but was shocked that I had 43 ships in reserve, which was at least twice as many as I thought I had.  Even if I knew how many ships I had I still would've stopped at 8 million.  My hands and wrists were hurting like crazy, I was tired as hell, and it was after 4am and I needed to be in class the next morning.  Going to 9 million sounded... unpleasant.

3) After that game I never really played Stargate in a serious way again.  I'd still play, but it would just be a (relatively) quick, less-than-an-hour game.  It wasn't like I felt that I'd "beaten" it, because I could've felt that way the first time I rolled it over to wave 1.  But I realized that the only thing I could do was just play longer and longer games just to prove I could, and that suddenly didn't seem interesting.  Remember that other guy on campus that I said was awesome too?  If he had continued to leap-frog me I probably would've kept going just to stay on top.  But since he stopped I kinda lost the fire inside of me as well, and I could never get up the enthusiasm to play a several-hour game.  I never saw that other guy play, so I never met him.  As far as I know he may have seen me play, but if he did he never introduced himself to me.  I kinda wish he had.

Stargate is funny to me. I think the initial levels are a bit easier than Defender, but then it ramps up the difficulty really fast. I guess since they wanted you to exploit the Stargate play mechanic to be successful, the landers start moving the humanoids to the top of the screen really fast.

Back in the day I read somewhere that the Williams folks thought that the maximum difficulty in Defender (at standard settings) was too low and that they wanted to correct that in Stargate by not having a true maximum difficulty.  I don't know if that really is true, but I never really noticed a plateau of difficulty.  What I mean is that getting to 1 million didn't mean that you were automatically good enough to play to 2 million (so long as you didn't break concentration).   But then again, it didn't ramp up in difficulty by a HUGE amount.  3 million wasn't twice as fast as 1 million, but I think it was indeed harder.  Then again, that could've been psychology at work - someone who knows the code would have to say for sure.   (I'll give more on that subject when I post my hints on Defender/Stargate.)

The warp was also a weakness for me. I always do it because it's easy points and couple of free guys, but it actually shortens my game. I also think Stargate contains my most hated video game enemy, those frigging spinning things that go up and down to avoid you. They shoot super fast projectiles after a couple of levels. Killing those is where I usually burn up the Inviso, just hitting it and ramming into them.

I hear you about those Firebombers.  I think that, like most people, I initially used to warp in order to pile up ships/smartbombs/inviso, but then later I'd do it in order to get to that first Firebomber level quicker.  Once you get good you should be able to almost never die in that level, which means that it's a bunch of cheap points.  To get to a million you're going to have to kill a lot of those Firebombers, so you'd better be proficient at it.  On a Firebomber level I'd usually use one Smartbomb for the pods and then use two Smartbombs to get as many Firebombers as I could fit onto a screen (and I could save one of those Smartbombs if the pods converged inside a mess of Firebombers).  Then I'd clean up the rest by shooting at teams of 2 to 4 Firebombers by shooting at the extra Firebombers (more on that later as well), and kill off the single Firebombers by getting underneath them and hitting Inviso just before slamming into them from below.

Eh... I know that that tip won't translate into helping you in Defender, but hopefully I'll be able to pass along some other tips that will help.

Wanna know something?  After writing about this, I kinda want to play.  Badly.  Gotta rebuild that sucker...

[arzoo]

I've seen it happen in MAME. I've also seen the other oddity happen in MAME where you accidentally shoot the humanoid off a lander, and the lander goes through the top of the screen (where it usually mutates), then scrolls back down to the bottom and starts upwards again.

Very cool! I assume other bugs also occur, such as enemies blinking to other parts of the world when there's a ton of crap on the screen and smart bombs not destroying pods completely (leaving Swarmers behind).

TOK - thanks for this thread, it's been a while since I thought much about Defender.

[TOK]

Arzoo, the enemy "teleporting" happens just like in the original. That can easily be seen starting at around level 3 or so. The mega swarmers happens too. I sometimes like when there is a ton of them after level 6 or so, because it kind of slows the whole game down. Makes it easier until they're all you have left to kill. 

[TOK]

DrBunsen... That was another great read! I still play Stargate pretty frequently, I just play Defender more.
When I couldn't find a nice Defender or Stargate, I built a bartop dedicated to both... Since the control layout is the same other than the additional button, I went with the Stargate theme so it would look right.

I only have one other buddy that even plays it. Everyone else is too intimidated by the game, even to play for free.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=66946.msg823946#msg823946

Wish you were closer, I'd love to have one of you high scoring guys over to have a beer and kick it's ass. 

[DrBunsen]

Wish you were closer, I'd love to have one of you high scoring guys over to have a beer and kick it's ass. 

Actually, that sort of thing was going to be suggestion #1 of things that I'd recommend order to improve your game.  Unfortunately, finding someone nowadays that's good that you can watch is practically impossible.  But if/when I MAME my Stargate isn't there a way to be able to record games for people to watch?  If so, then it'll be possible for me to play and send you a recording.  Seeing someone do the controls isn't nearly as important as seeing what it is that they're doing onscreen. 

The reason why seeing someone play is important let's me tell another story (but I promise to keep this one shorter <grin>).  The reason why I started playing Stargate instead of Defender came down to the fact that it was a Stargate that was put into the grocery store that I worked at.  If the vendor had put in a Defender then it probably would've been Defender that I played like crazy instead.  Anyways, I'd get off work and dump a dollar or two into it almost every day.  Since it was a popular game all of us guys at the store were playing it like crazy and trying to get the top score.  I remember that the high score was something like 90,000 and I was getting close, and then I came in one day and some "drive-by" had come in and put up something like 110,000.  Kinda depressing.  It felt SO out of reach.

But I kept at it, and eventually beat that score.  But it felt like every time I'd get over 100,000 I'd collapse, like it was suddenly so hard.  I got a little better over the course of several weeks, but I was only in the 120,000 point range and I was pretty sure that I'd probably never get close to 150,000 points.    Still, because no one that I knew was even getting close to 100,000 I felt like I was fairly untouchable.  Like Stargate was so hard that no one would be able to be much better than I was.

Then I wandered into an arcade and saw someone else playing Stargate who was better than me.  He was smooth where I was ragged, confident where I was timid, and when he was finished he was well over 200,000 points.  After watching him I realized that it WAS NOT AS HARD AS I THOUGHT IT WAS.  And I knew that I could do what he did with just some changes in technique.  Within a week I was regularly over 200,000 points.

So, my first tip is this:  Realize that it's not as hard as you think it is.  If you're at 100,000 points it really isn't a huge leap to get to 200,000.  Don't freak out when you get close to 100,000 points thinking that you're automatically going to start dying off a lot - have the confidence to just handle a little more speed and a little more aggression.  It's just a little bit more per wave, not a whole lot more.  You really can handle it.  If you could see someone good play then you'd KNOW that rather than just suspect that.

More later. 


Bunsen

[DrBunsen]

Arzoo gave some great strategic rules, but I'm going to delve more into techniques.

Stargate/Defender tip #2:  Don't go slow, but don't go full speed either.  Get those landers as quickly as possible.

I'm *pretty sure* that this applies to Defender, but someone like Arzoo will have to confirm.  I've seen some guys who could play some amazing Stargate while going rather slow, or while just guarding a few people, but almost all of us really good players were usually blazing around the surface of the planet most of the time, killing landers like crazy first, then worrying about the other baddies.  Your people on the planet are worth a lot of points, so killing the landers quickly should be a top concern.

But I don't think anyone would go FULL speed when the screen was full of landers.  I'd probably go 70% to 80% of maximum speed most of the time, and only go to 100% when I really needed to get to or away from something quickly and the screen was relatively clear.  The way that I regulated speed was by tapping the Thrust button independently from the fire button.  So I was mostly laying on the thrust, but letting up for a fraction of a second once or twice a second.


Which brings me to tip #3:  Learn to "flutter-tap" the Fire button.  I don't know of any better way to describe it other than flutter-tapping (and I just sorta made up the term just now), but what I mean is for you to have the Fire button partially pushed down most of the time, and just vibrate it up and down to have it make contact and release.  Stabbing at the button doesn't work for quick firing, but learning to flutter-tap can greatly increase the number of shots per second.  The way I did was for my fire and thrust fingers to be almost rigidly straight so that I was pushing the buttons with the middle joints part of my fingers rather than the tips.

The trick then is being able to flutter-tap with one finger while doing "push.... release-push.... release-push..." on the thrust, with the release times being much less than the push times to smooth out the speed.  That's how I do it.  But like I said, that's not the only way.  Find a technique that's comfortable to you and do it.  But most importantly, practice being fluid and smooth with your thrusting and firing.

Which brings me to tip #4: Don't aim at landers, but rather fire into the area where you expect them to be.  Essentially, I'm almost always moving up and down in a controlled yet eccentric manner.  Putting 5 shots in a row in the same place isn't very dangerous to the targets in front of you, but putting up a wall of shots means that you've got a pretty good shot at hitting something.  But I don't use a pure up and down motion, it's more of like "up, down, up, up, down down down up up down up up up down down down" sort of motion.  Basically, I'm laying down a bunch of random shots that are filling in a vertical area about the size of 2 landers.  That works well since the landers tend to stagger their height a bit, so while speeding around the surface at the beginning of most levels I'm not aiming at landers, but the area in front of me where they are expected to be.  When you see it done well and smoothly it's a thing of beauty.


So then, tip #5: Try to make your brain control the screen and not your hands.  By that I mean, if you have to think about what you have to do with the controls in order to make your ship do something on the screen, then you're still getting basic coordination down.  You need to be able to think what you want the ship to do and have it do it **while you're thinking it**, not think, then do, then think, then do.  It's a fluid game that needs constant second-by-second changes in technique while still fulfilling an over-arching strategic goal (save the humans (cheerleaders?) - save the world!).  You need to put the ship in a place at the same time that you're thinking that you want it there, not think that you want it somewhere and then put it there.  The more that you put yourself "in the game" the better you'll be.  When you get to the point where it's automatic then when you're at the end of a level flying full speed and a baiter comes up in back of you you'll be able to do stuff like "hit reverse, stop thrusting, fire, hit reverse, thrust" all within a quarter second or so, and without thinking.

More later!

[DrBunsen]

TOK,

I finally followed your link to the other posting of your Stargate/Defender project.  Totally awesome!  Not just in your level of detail, but also in your willingness to document what you did and fill us in on your design decisions.  I've got some work I'll need to be doing on my Stargate cabinet in order to rebuild it a bit, and you've really opened my mind to some possibilities.

But I fear that it'll languish for a long time though.  Dang ol' parenting and job keep getting in the way...


Bunsen

[arzoo]

Every one of DrBunsen's tips are dead-on (for Defender also). 

Killing the Landers is definitely the #1 priority on each new level. The flutter fire is a good way to describe the technique. One thing I've done is adjust the leaf switch on the fire button so that it's split hair close - you can't do this with micro switches.

[DrBunsen]

Every one of DrBunsen's tips are dead-on (for Defender also). 

Killing the Landers is definitely the #1 priority on each new level. The flutter fire is a good way to describe the technique. One thing I've done is adjust the leaf switch on the fire button so that it's split hair close - you can't do this with micro switches.

Arzoo:  Holy smokes!  I never thought about that difference between leaf switches and microswitches.  That's... huge to me (and apparently to you as well).  At one point I was considering selling the Stargate cabinet and just modifying the Slikstik control panel that I got (before they went belly-up) to integrate an accurate Stargate layout.  But after reading your post I'm *really* happy that I couldn't make that work out since I would've been using microswitches and I didn't realize how much I would've hated that.  No way I could fire as fast as I want to with microswitches.

TOK:  Don't take the above as proof that you need to change out your microswitches for leaf switches.  It could be that your fingers can push/release a microswitch as quickly as Arzoo and I can fire with a leaf switch, it would just take more button travel to make it happen.  With me and Arzoo it's more a matter of muscle memory that we probably can't unlearn too easily.  Besides, I don't know how easy it would be to have leaf switches and keep the cool LED buttons you have. 


Bunsen

[TOK]

I have some leaf switch buttons that I can test in place of the microswitch fire button. I had thought about that in the past.
One thing that is odd and might just be me is that I feel I can fire faster with the translucent buttons than with the switched buttons in my other machines. The plastic the translucents is less flexible than regular buttons. The difference is subtle, but since I can still play Defender on a machine with both types of buttons, I don't think it's in my mind.

The tips are excellent. One thing I found immediately was that my scores improved when I slowed down. I used to fly into a lot of bullets and Baiters when I was cruising full speed.

[(+_+)]

Thanks for all the pointers guys. I've already incorporated some of your suggestions quite naturally such as the thrust and fire "flutter-tap" as well as the spreading out of firing to cover more area. Funny thing about the "flutter-tap" is we used to call it "flapping" or the "double flap" when referring to joust. You could actually outflap the blue, fast buggers with the double flap. You use your index finger and middle finger and flutter them up and down across the button. Very effective. That's one game I could roll with ease, but with defender, I'm stuck at 17, 500 points and climbing. I think I may be thrusting too quickly since I can't seem to avoid the faceplants with enemy bullets and ships. It drives me bananas. Another thing that bugs me a bit is my joystick is just a tiny bit too far from my reverse button (see Hyperspace project CP). I tried to factor in the defender/stargate layout in my "selfish center" button layout but it's impossible to make it perfect for everthing. I think I may tone down the layout even more next time around and limit it to even fewer more specific games.

Thank god it's free, otherwise I would have dropped at least 10 bucks last night.

[CrazyKongFan]

Thanks for all the pointers guys. I've already incorporated some of your suggestions quite naturally such as the thrust and fire "flutter-tap" as well as the spreading out of firing to cover more area. Funny thing about the "flutter-tap" is we used to call it "flapping" or the "double flap" when referring to joust. You could actually outflap the blue, fast buggers with the double flap. You use your index finger and middle finger and flutter them up and down across the button. Very effective.

I saw a guy do that on Track and Field last year with 3 fingers on each of the run buttons and put up some amazing amounts on the speed and distance totals. I even seen him go over 100M on the hammer toss.

[(+_+)]

3 fingers.  . I would love to have seen that. All I ever saw were people doing the double flap or play the bongos, like monkeys in distress, on the buttons when it came to T&F.

I may try to incorporate the double flap whenever I ease off the thrust to see if that helps.

[CrazyKongFan]

3 fingers.  . I would love to have seen that. All I ever saw were people doing the double flap or play the bongos, like monkeys in distress, on the buttons when it came to T&F.

He used the ring finger, middle finger and index finger (in that order)...I've tried it since then, nowhere near as good at it (plus my fingers get tired out quickly). I can only seen to use 2 fingers on my left hand though, and it doesn't work as well on my MAME cabinet, probably due to having microswitch buttons.

[wbassett]

As was mentioned, using the radar is also a big key.  My son would get destroyed almost instantly until I told him to watch the radar out of the corner of his eye.  That way you can lay down a barrage of fire right as the target enters the screen.

I also told him the landers can't go through the land and have to follow the contors of the mountains.  Knowing that let's you know what direction the lander will be moving in before it moves... which also lets you lay down a blast of fire power that would make Jesse Ventura proud!

I'm slowly shaking the 20 plus years of rust off and getting back into decent form, but nowhere near my old competing form.  I think part of it has to do with using an 8 way stick with that has a bit longer throw.

I too use the 'flutter fire' technique which impressed the hell out of my son.  He couldn't believe how fast his old man could lay down a blanket of shots!  One of the things I used to love doing and am finally getting the skill back is the quick double reverse and fire method.  I could take out some targets in front of me, reverse, take out a mutant or something else, and hit reverse and flip back to the normal direction I was flying without even missing a beat.  First time my son saw that trick I got a Keanu Reeves style 'Whoa!'

I remember when I was a kid and once a few of us got to where we could roll the counter on Defender, the game did lose some interest as someone else mentioned.  Here's what we did...

One variant would be to start off on level one and shoot all the humans except 1, and then... as the name of the game goes... Defend them!

Another thing that came about from boredom was to just kill all the humans and immediately go into the 'waste lands' and then fight your way out.  After level 4 (and I think every four levels after that) you get all ten humans back again.  We'd kill them off again and fight our way out.  Talk about hard!  Still back then we could rack up well over 100K playing that way.

Yet again another boredom version would be to use all your smart bombs right away so you have to shoot everything yourself.  As soon as you get another ship and smart bomb, waste that one too and keep going.

Last crazy thing I can remember was to blow up all your ships but 1 at level one and then see who could recover and last the longest.

It was crazy, but fun and impressive.  I remember my friend and I would usually have a crowd around us.

I'm pretty sure there is a difficuly setting isn't there?  Reason I ask is because when the guy came around to empty the coin box he started noticing there wasn't nearly as many quarters as there used to be, but he knew the game was getting played.  After he'd leave it would be harder, but we quickly adapted. 

[TOK]

Defender has difficulty settings, and they can be adjusted in MAME, but they're a bit cryptic...

BOOKKEEPING AND EVALUATION TOTALS (Functions 1-7)
=================================================
1. In game over mode, set switch to AUTO-UP and depress ADVANCE. The CRT
   indicates Function 1 and total left chute coins.
2. Record audit totals and depress ADVANCE for functions 1-7. To review a
   total that has been advanced past, set switch to MANUAL-DOWN and depress
   ADVANCE. Functions are displayed one at a time as follows:-

      Function    Total    Description
      --------------------------------
         1          0      (Total) COINS LEFT
         2          0      (Total) COINS CENTER
         3          0      (Total) COINS RIGHT
         4          0      TOTAL PAID (Games)
         5          0      (Total Bonus) SHIPS WON
         6          0      TOTAL (Play) TIME (Minutes)
         7          0      TOTAL SHIPS (Played)
         
3. Operate ADVANCE to display Function 28, SPECIAL FUNCTION. From Function
   28 you can return to game over or zero audit totals and return to game
   over.
4. With switch set to AUTO-UP, perform a. or b. as desired.
      a. To return to game over depress ADVANCE.
      b. To zero audit totals and return to game over, operate HIGH SCORE
         RESET to indicate "35" on CRT Function 28 and then depress ADVANCE.

GAME ADJUSTMENTS (Functions 8-27)
=================================
1. In game over mode set switch to AUTO_UP and then depress ADVANCE. The CRT
   indicates Function 1 and total left chute coins.
2. To raise Function number on CRT, operate ADVANCE pushbutton with switch
   set to AUTO-UP. To lower Function number operate ADVANCE with it set to
   MANUAL-DOWN.
3. With desired Function indicated, raise adjustment value by operating HIGH
   SCORE RESET with switch set to AUTO-UP; lower value by operating HIGH
   SCORE RESET with it set to MANUAL-DOWN. Value left on CRT is new setting.
   For values, see below and, for pricing, Table 1.

      Function   Factory Setting   Description
      ----------------------------------------
         08           10000        BONUS SHIP LEVEL (0=No Bonus Ships)
         09               3        SHIPS PER GAME
         10               3        COINAGE SELECT
         11               1        LEFT COIN MULT
         12               4        CENTER COIN MULT
         13               1        RIGHT COIN MULT
         14               1        COINS FOR CREDIT
         15               0        COINS FOR BONUS
         16               0        MINIMUM COINS
         17               0        FREE PLAY (Set to 1 for Free Play)
         18               0        STARTING DIFFICULTY (0=LIB; 1=MOD; 2=CONS)
         19              10        PROGRESSIVE WAVE DIFFICULTY LIMIT (4-25)
                                   e.g. 5-LIB; 10=MOD; 15=CONS;
         20               1        BACKGROUND SOUND (0=OFF; 1=ON)
         21               5        PLANET RESTORE WAVE NUMBER
         22               0        NOT USED
         23               0        NOT USED
         24               0        NOT USED
         25               0        NOT USED
         26               0        NOT USED
         27               0        NOT USED

4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 until all desired adjustments have been made.
5. Operate ADVANCE until 28 0 SPECIAL FUNCTION is indicated on CRT. From
   Function 28 you can return to game over or restore factory settings.
   Perform step 6 or 7 as desired.
6. To return to game over, depress ADVANCE with switch set to AUTO-UP.
7. To restore factory settings and zero audit totals:
   a. Operate HIGH SCRORE RESET in AUTO-UP to indicate "45" on CRT Function
      28.
   b. Depress ADVANCE. The game returns to audit Function 1.
   c. Set switch to MANUAL-DOWN and depress ADVANCE to indicate Function 28
      on the CRT.
   d. Set switch to AUTO-UP and depress ADVANCE.

[wbassett]

Okay then he was changing the settings.  We'd have to leave the area when he was opening the machines and collecting the quarters so I never saw what he was doing, but he definitely did something!

It was somewhat amusing watching the newbs toss a quarter in and then get swarmed almost immediately and it'd be game over in a minute!  Then we'd step up and play for an hour or two on one quarter and we were doing some of the crazy stuff I mentioned above too.

[francmusic]

Congratulations ! Great job!
I love this game. The best arcade game for me. My best score is only 30000 
Here, in Poland it is not easy to buy  Williams Defender working so first I decided to build control panel "Defender Station" to play Defender with mame.
http://www.francmuz.webd.pl/panel/final2.JPG

Now I finish my mame cabinet (in universal Zaccaria cab) for Defender game.
I thinked about Williams Arcade Classic for PC (see picture http://www.francmuz.webd.pl/zaccaria/2/DSC06513.jpg) but now I use mame version.

Congratulations again.

[TOK]

Very nice... I started to build a stand alone panel for Defender. I built the box and top, but never painted it or got the overlay for it. I'll get a pic next time I'm working in the garage.

[Havok]

This just in:

TOK was found to be using "arcade enhancing" drugs, and his score has been invalidated by Twin Galaxies founder, Walter Day.

Said Walter in a recent press conference, "TOK still sucks!"

 

[TOK]

This just in:

TOK was found to be using "arcade enhancing" drugs, and his score has been invalidated by Twin Galaxies founder, Walter Day.

Said Walter in a recent press conference, "TOK still sucks!"

 

Haha! Drugs or not, I suck in the Twin Galaxies sense. My non-sucking was by my own low standards. 

[leapinlew]

Congrats...

I can't even consistently break 40k. I'm rebuilding my defender bartop, so I hope to be practicing again soon.

[Ummon]

I didn't get this game as a kid. I didn't really like it when I found Mame. But this thread has gotten me a lot more interested.

[Ummon]

Hey, I just got 39k!  Heh. I've gotten around that before, once, and not in years, so this is pretty outstanding for me. It followed a session of maybe ten games starting with 17K (not bad) to getting worse and worse! Then I shined for a moment. I'm a good gambler and know when to quit.

[TOK]

Getting out of the 30's was actually a pretty major hurdle. Seemed like I hovered around that range for 50+ games until I started getting over that on a consistent basis. I haven't had a lot of time to play the last couple weeks, but I still haven't gotten over 100,000 again.
My regular games are 60,000-70,000 range, but I have had a couple in the 80's and low 90's.

I've also been alternating between Defender and Stargate, which I think is hurting more than helping. Stargate is nuts. The first couple Stargate levels are easier than Defender, then it goes nuts. With all the new enemies and the Inviso, the strategies are considerably different.

[wbassett]

Couple of things...

First, has anyone encountered this and if so do you know why it happens-  I was leaving my cab on.  I normally leave all my computers on anyway, but I was playing games on a whim and it was nice just walking through the room, saying "I think I blast out a game or two" without having to boot the system.  Anyway, I shut it down because I was going to be away for a few days and when I came back and powered it back up, all my Defender high scores from the previous week were all gone.  It still had my high scores from an earlier time when the cab was powered up.  Just a weird anomaly that kinda sucked because I broke 100K and had all the scores up over 60K.

Okay... a tip/hint that is working for me to shake some of the years of rust off...  Try playing in two player mode against yourself.  I found doing this I was able to start getting my skills back up closer to where they were 20 years ago.  It's kinda weird, you're 'competing' with yourself, but for me it started doubling by scores.  I'd get behind with one player and I felt like I had to try and catch up to my 'other' player.   

Still sucks that I lost my 100K plus game!

I still have some very bad games, but I am back up in skill level now were I can get 10K with my first ship, and I almost made 20K with my first ship last night.  When I was a kid, I could hit 40K easy with the first ship.  I now am thinking part of it is I am playing with an 8-way stick that also has a longer throw than a dedicated Defender 2-way stick.  I'll definitely be making a dedicated Defender cp when I get my modular cp done!

[TheShanMan]

Still sucks that I lost my 100K plus game!

A week or so ago I got on the Donkey Kong high score table with a score around 120k or 130k. I exited the game and when I came back later it wasn't there! I then had the same thing happen with a 90k game. Fortunately neither was my best score, so I just considered it motivation to get more high scores. Now 126k is the minimum to get on the table. It still concerns me though because who knows when it's going to happen to a new high score. After I enter my initials I always let it run for a while longer before exiting the game just in case I was exiting the game too quickly after entering my initials (though I wouldn't expect that to matter).

[TOK]

Are you guys using the newer "Save State" versions of MAME?
I'm using old Hiscore.dat versions and have never lost high scores. My horizonal cab running .84 has Robotron scores on it from 2004.

[Havok]

My horizonal cab running .84 has Robotron scores on it from 2004.

Don't you mean 2084?

 

[TheShanMan]

Are you guys using the newer "Save State" versions of MAME?
I'm using old Hiscore.dat versions and have never lost high scores. My horizonal cab running .84 has Robotron scores on it from 2004.

Nope. Hiscore.dat only.

[tommyinajar]

Ah, Defender I always loved that game, but was never any good at it. Maybe I just didn't spend enough quareters on it, which was not hard to do, since each game I played lasted only a few scant minutes. First time I saw all those controls- WOW !

Lot's of CP's have an Asteroid button layout, why not a dedicated Defender layout ??

 

Then I ran into Stargate and it was love.  I played it to the point where it kinda got in the way of relationships. 

 Did any one else ever see the "News Radio" TV show where Dave Foley started playing playing a video game again (Defender or Stargate , they gave  it some generic name), that he was addicted to as a kid ?

 It ruled is whole teenage life, no dating, missed his SAT's etc...

My favorite line was something to the effect of "You try harder if you pretend the Huminoids are actual members of your family"

 

[TOK]

Lot's of CP's have an Asteroid button layout, why not a dedicated Defender layout ??

I initially gave my standard panel panel a thumb button for Defenders reverse, but eventually built a bartop dedicated to Defender and Stargate. It has a lowered 8 way stick, and still works pretty good for lots of other old 1 or 2 button games using the Thrust and Fire buttons of the Defender layout.

[DrBunsen]

Parts:
I found a source for newly built replacement Defender/Stargate/Joust joysticks a couple years ago and bought one for my Stargate.  I haven't installed it yet, but I'm hoping to be doing my Stargate rebuild this Summer.  If any of you are interested in the original feel of the Defender/Stargate joystick, this is the way to go.  Link  It doesn't come with switches since it's intended as a replacement for worn parts, but I'd bet that the guy may be able to help with parts for that.


News Radio:
Yeah, I loved that show and that episode.  I thought that Dave did refer to it as Stargate, and I definitely remember him talking about the Yllabian Space Guppies.  I did a lookup on the show just a moment ago to see if there were any details.  The episode description of that part of the show said "Dave worries that the past will repeat itself when an arcade game, Stargate Defender, is installed in the hallway."  And, yeah, I definitely identified with the character that episode. 

Also, the guest star list revealed something cool:  Eugene Jarvis, the creator of Defender, Stargate Defender, and Robotron 2084, had a bit part in the episode, as "Delivery Guy #3".

Episode guide here.  4th episode of the third season.


Bunsen

[TOK]

I considered a two way, then bailed at the last minute for the 8 way balltop Sanwa. I couldn't bring myself to have a cab that only played Defender and Stargate, even though that was the theme I went with.

I still wonder about the two way stick and leaf switch buttons from time to time. I've now broken 100k a few times, and you need high 80 thousands to even make it on the top 10 list. I'd like to be consistently breaking 150k by the end of the summer, but with the warm weather I have a lot of projects competing for time. 

[DrBunsen]

Several posts back I'd said that I was wanting to record some of my playtime so that you could get some pointers/tips on how I play.  Kind of like how I got a lot better quickly after I saw someone else play who was good.  So I was reading your last post and thinking that I wish I had some recordings already, and I had an "AHA!" moment - check YouTube.  Sure enough, there are recordings there of guys playing some pretty good games.  No one plays exactly alike so I found myself squirming and thinking "no, go THERE; faster Faster FASTER; you should've gone back the other way!" and the like.

In any case, since you're at the point where you've got the movements down, being able to see someone good play should help at least a bit, and possibly a lot.


Very good Defender player, playing on hard difficulty.  He doesn't fly as fast as I like to, but he shoots like I do (and how I tried to describe a few posts ago).



Good Stargate player, levels 18-22.  Again, this guy flies slower than I prefer.  However he does use a technique that is effective that I'd seen a lot of good players use - gather the humans, hover over them and pick up points by letting them get picked up over and over.  I tried it for a while but preferred to just fly and blast, though when things got down to just a few landers I'd do it for some easy points.  The bad thing about this technique is that he ended up too quickly with just a few people on the planet, so it wasn't as effective as it would be if he could keep several more people available from wave to wave.  Also, if this guy shot like the Defender player above he'd do a bit better.


Bunsen

[TOK]

I also found that 50,000 on first guy Defender link when I was searching Youtube for stuff and I've watched it a few times. What I thought was odd is that the guy is really good at avoiding stuff, but then does goofy stuff like using smart bombs on single Baiters and letting everyone get picked up by the third level killing his bonus.
My end of level 3 score is usually about 10,000 above his, though I've usually lost a life by then.

I did really start improving my score when I started flying slower and stopped racing for every single humanoid getting picked up though.

[DrBunsen]

Yeah, I agree that he could conserve the Smartbombs a bit better.  A bigger thing in my mind is that 90% of the time he files left to right only.  I kept thinking "go back, go back!" but he'd keep flying.  I want to think that I don't mind which way I fly (and BOY does that sound bad...) but it may be that I have a preferred direction as well.  Recording games and evaluating them later may be a cool tool to get the skills hones quicker.


Bunsen

[TOK]

I had a mad rush of retro-hysteria today. This 130XE was bought new as a replacement for a dead 800XL. It has traveled with me through multiple addresses since I left my parents home. I don't think I've physically powered it up since the early 90's. I pulled the box out of the closet, dragged it down to the garage, shoved all the crap on the workbench aside and...

Fire in the hole!


OK, so there's a crusty old Atari computer, but might be wondering whats the point. Ta-da!


I still contend this was the best home port of Defender (excluding newer emulated XBox type stuff), but it wasn't quite as faithful as I remembered. I never noticed the incredible amount of screen flicker and other oddities about these games back then.


I guess this is proof the overall play is pretty faithful. After a few games my computer score is right in the range of my actual Defender score. The Atari computer version uses spacebar for smartbomb and regular keys for hyperspace, so it's not crippled from lack of input like the 2600 version.


A stowaway I found in the box with the computer (I also have my C64 in there). I used to play this in English class.
I don't be thinking that ever dood me any harm.


Family reunion.

[DrBunsen]

Just from the few screenshots it looks like some things got changed when they ported it (or is that just me?).  Does the timing of the game-play feel right?

Kudos to the mad skillz of the MAME programmers - being able to do the hardware emulation so exactly that the real code can be run is such a nice thing.


Bunsen

[TOK]

The mechanics and overall flow of the game feel correct. The enemy sprites are a bit simpler than their arcade counterparts, but the real difference is the flicker. In the arcade game everything looks rock solid, not so much in the computer version. All the enemies are there, including swarmers from the pods. They're not quite as random, seemingly coming out in a straight line before spreading out.
Other things, like the appearance of the laser fire and the large explosions that scatter particles everywhere are surprisingly good.

I wasn't sure anyone would be interested, so I didn't try to get video. I still have it setup, perhaps I'll try and see if I can capture it decently.

I also realized I'm missing a bunch of Atari cartridges. I've been out of my parents house for about 17 years, but I think they're still in my bedroom closet there. I have the books for Gyruss and Frogger, and the complete box and manual for Super Cobra. I also have 200+ 5.25 floppies full of stuff, but I didn't even get into that today. 

[Ummon]

Very good Defender player, playing on hard difficulty.  He doesn't fly as fast as I like to, but he shoots like I do (and how I tried to describe a few posts ago).

He's pretty 'do-or-die'. I think I'm too cautious. I've found that on a lot of games, perhaps games in general. Afraid of dying and you die. Laugh at death and you, generally, prevail. (Or you die anyways but don't get frustrated about it.)

[TOK]

Reading the other control panel thread ( http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=82479.0 ) has me back in the mood for playing again... I should clarify that, since I wasn't out of the mood, but I moved the game in from the garage when the weather got really hot. Its not in a convenient spot right now.

[TOK]

I was playing my Defender bartop out in the garage when I posted this thread. During the worst of the summer head, I brought it in the house. I didn't really get to play it much because I just didn't have a good place to put it. Sitting on my computer desk, the panel is up a bit too high to be comfortable. Its been cooling down, so I moved it back out to the workbench. Played a few games and felt VERY rusty. It almost seemed like the thing was angry at me for letting it sit. I had Landers picking up like crazy in the first attack wave.

This morning, I had some coffee fired up Defender and got a new high score on my first game. My previous best was 104,xxx. I just busted off a 162,xxx game. Still not really great in the realm of Defender, but a major accomplishment in the realm of uncoordinated me. 

[TOK]

jrock is releasing an all-in-one Williams board that can be used either as a multi-game or to resurrect dead dedicated hardware.
Seemed like there were a lot of guys with dedicated Defenders that had issues.

http://www.jrok.com/hardware/wsf/

[leapinlew]

Woohoo! I've joined the 100k club... FINALLY.

I can totally relate to the feelings TOK expressed in his posts as I creeped over 90k for the first time. Good times.

[TOK]

 

Nice... I have all my top 10's over 100k, but still haven't broken 200k. Perhaps I've reached the limits of my coordination. 

Its just now getting back into the season where I play games out in the garage at night. Its in the 40's out there most of the Winter. Golden Tee has been getting all the play since I got it working. Its a great hanging out and beer drinking game if you shut off the shot clock.

I'll start playing Defender again now that you posted this. Congrats!

[leapinlew]

Nice... I have all my top 10's over 100k, but still haven't broken 200k. Perhaps I've reached the limits of my coordination. 

Its just now getting back into the season where I play games out in the garage at night. Its in the 40's out there most of the Winter. Golden Tee has been getting all the play since I got it working. Its a great hanging out and beer drinking game if you shut off the shot clock.

I'll start playing Defender again now that you posted this. Congrats!

Whew! I'd love it if I could get my top 10 over 100k. Right now it feels like a lucky game. You know how the game works, my next 5 games I might have a hard time breaking 50k. You've inspired me to keep on keep'n on.

I'm considering getting the jrok board and building a full size when I move back home. 

[TheShanMan]

I have my defender set for 5 lives and difficulty set to the easiest setting, and I have yet to break 50k. Yes, I suck. But I haven't dedicated myself to getting good at it yet either.