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What kind of gas mileage do you get?

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Wade:

--- Quote from: paigeoliver on April 28, 2008, 09:57:48 pm ---It isn't a $100 a month difference, you are simply telling yourself it is a $100 a month difference. If it was actually just a $100 a month difference then everyone on earth would buy brand new cars, drive them 5 years and then dumpster them.

--- End quote ---

It really is closer to $100/month, even if reliability is unimportant to you or your time is worthless (which it isn't, for most of us).

Plain and simple... new $12k car, driven for 5 years... still has about half the value left after that 5 years... so it cost around $6k for 5 years.  That's about $1200/yr compared to someone buying the SAME car, 5 years old for 6k.  The difference is the person who bought the car new got the BEST years out of the car, for about $100/month.  The person buying it used is only getting the bad end of the deal, as the maintenance costs will be far higher than those first 5 years.  I've already shown that the insurance difference is extremely small.  Tires and oil will be constant, or will be worse for the worn, older car.  How can you not see the economy in this?

I've spent more than $100/month in maintenance/repairs on my old cars for many years.  I was tired of messing with it and not saving any money.

Some people can't spare $100/month, have bad credit, or don't realize the cost difference is so small.  That is why people buy beaters.


--- Quote ---I'd drive a new car too if the difference was $1200 a year (still note, that talking in terms of monthly payments shows a lack of wisdom in the areas of finance, it isn't what the item costs you per month, it is what the item costs you).

--- End quote ---

Quite the contrary.  It's the return that matters.  Sometimes paying interest or payments is the smart financial move.  My time and money is better spent on things other than missed work and missed meetings, and repairs on old cars.  What are your financial credentials?  You can back up your expertise with a huge portfolio, I suppose?


--- Quote ---I do admit that I am not totally up on current pricing, only new car I priced recently was the new Rabbit, I saw the price but thought the car was dog ugly.

I do find it amusing that not purchasing a new car shows that the person makes bad decisions and will never get anywhere in life. I find that quite amusing indeed.

--- End quote ---

Not buying a new car doesn't put someone in that category.  But many people consistently make bad decisions.  Quite often, those are the people who don't have the option to buy a new car.


--- Quote ---This has gotten far off the original topic of fuel economy though, and that is partially my fault. I can't convince anyone of anything when their position is based on fear, so I am really going to try to be finished with this thread.

--- End quote ---

For me personally, it's based less on fear, and more on common sense.

Wade

Jdurg:
Hell, if I had to live in a big city such as NY or Chicago, I wouldn't even own a car!  (And with where work takes me, I may wind up living in the city).  I would love to be able to survive without a car at all.  Then gas prices wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  Sadly, here in SE Connecticut, you can't survive without a car so I just have to make do with what I have.

danny_galaga:

--- Quote from: Wade on April 28, 2008, 09:20:02 pm ---
You're right, a lot of people can't handle their finances, and driving a beater is IMO one of the sure ways to become one of those people.


--- End quote ---

that is a ridiculous statement and i find it offensive. i personally find that many people who aren't good with their finances are that way because they are paying too much for a loan- a loan for a new car. it's just transport people. except for the thing about the baby seats, i'm absolutely with paige. all i'm saying is that it is a lot cheaper to own a secondhand car, if you have some sense about you when buying and know how to drive (for instance, not start it in gear and instantly drive off. that is a lot of wear to the engine). maybe dont redline it through every gear. check the oil and water more than once a year. i think paige said it, but i'll repeat it- if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?

paiges muffin break analogy is brilliant, and if you answer honestly would sort out whether you really need a new car for financial reasons. who wouldn't put up with a random delaying 1 hour phone call if you were given $4000 for it?

there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?

patrickl:

--- Quote from: danny_galaga on April 29, 2008, 01:49:07 am ---if there was actually little difference between owning a new car and an old, who would buy old cars?
--- End quote ---
For instance because:
- $100 a month is still a lot for some people
- they don't really need the car anyway so it doesn't matter if it breaks down now and then
- they don't really drive the car (obviously if you don't drive it, on the total budget, having a new car becomes a hell of a lot more expensive than an old car)
- they don't have the money to buy a new car and cannot borrow the money for it either
- they don't do the math and only look at the depreciation and don't see that the extra cost in maintenance
- they don't realize that their old car actually costs as much as it does whereas. for a new car the monthly costs are known upfront
- they can fix their car themselves with scrapyard parts and don't account for the work they have to put in themselves
- they are new (or bad) drivers and the insurance premiums would be huge on a new car

The fact that you "beater guys" are so shocked that the difference is only $100 really means you never took the time to look at your driving budget.

Depreciation on the $12,000 car is? On average $125 a month. Now is it that unlikely that, on an old junker, you have at least an extra $300 a year in repair bills per year? Try to look at averages too. That $1000 bill in one year averages to $250 over 4 years already. Besides an old beater has depreciation too, buy it at $2000 and you get $50 back from the scrapheap after 4 years, so you lose $40 a month there too.

On a $12,500 new car you will have at best a $50 a month price advantage by driving an old junker and I seriously doubt it's even that much. On a $16000 car it's going to be something like $100 at best.

Seriously, do the math. Put your depreciation, the insurance, the gas bill, taxes, interests and all the costs (taxi bills, tow bills) that you can think off and you will find that you spend a whole lot more than you thought you did. You are really not going to save more than 30% of your budget by driving an old junker (or pay 40% more if you drive new instead of a junker).

It's just a crapshoot too. The old junker might break down soon after you buy it. In college and the university I had plenty of friends with cars that broke down and they couldn't afford the bill or the car simply wasn't worth it anymore. My brother bought a $2000 junker and after a year the engine died. That's a higher depreciation than on a new car. I was reasonably lucky with my old junkers, but I still spend a lot of money keeping them running and spend way to much time by the roadside or with the bonnet open trying to coerce the car into starting or to continue running.


--- Quote ---there are many reasons to buy a new car- prestige, hobby, safety, business, relief from stress because you freak out if your car breaks down more than once a year. but almost never could you honestly say its because it is cheaper than an old car. how the hell could you possibly be financially better off?

--- End quote ---
Are you even reading what Wade and I say? No one has said that a new car is cheaper. Only that the premium is rather small to have all the advantages that a new car gives.

The best cheap alternative is a young second hand car (4 to 5 years old). Still in pretty good shape and at practically the same cost as an old junker. You save some money on the depreciation and you don't lose so much on the maintenance as on an old junker. Of course this again only works if you are able to fork over $6000 to $8000 for a car and if you really drive the car a lot. Or something in between is to drive the new car for 10 years.

BTW try to think of the following conditions too:
- the car actually gets driven
- people who drive new are not going to be willing or able to repair their own car
- people with kids really have to minimize breakdowns (if I have to pick my kid up from school I really cannot use the car breaking down)
- self employed people or the ones with a job, lose money or free days (which equals money) when their car breaks down. My hourly wage is higher than the price difference on driving an old car


--- Quote from: paigeoliver on April 28, 2008, 09:53:58 pm ---Also, if you wade through those german ADAC breakdown statistics you will find that even pretty old cars only suffer about 50-80 annual roadside breakdowns per THOUSAND vehicles.
--- End quote ---
That's for 5 year old cars. Not for old beaters.

danny_galaga:


none of that changes my simple assertion that a second hand car is a LOT less expensive than a new car, even considering ALL possible running costs for both (i am not shocked the difference is $100/month because i assert that simply isnt normally the case).

 we may be arguing at cross-purposes here. i conceed that i dont know what the costs are for older cars in holland. it could very well be like in japan where i have heard that as the car gets older (past 5 years? or 50000km or something like that) the registration costs go up dramatically. very obviously an older car in japan really would cost more than a new one then.

i can only talk of prices in australia. i have also owned a car in canada and ipso facto, since the americans are not ones to be outdone i believe i have a fair idea about the US too. i can quite confidently use my car as an example since it is real. it cost me $2500. has cost an extra $300 or so a year in repairs so far. if i had to buy a whole new engine for it each year it would cost me an extra $1500 or so per year. only then might it compare in price to a new car. that would be $6000 spent in 4 years. i could sell the car for about $2500 again (its old enough that price doesnt go down). the new small car might be $15000, sell for $7500 thus $7500 spent in the same time. if i had to buy a new engine every year, i might consider a new car  ;D

not a perfect example because my car isnt as fuel efficient as a modern 4 cylinder car. if i didnt buy a vw, i probably would have bought a late 70's early 80's toyota corolla. that would have used less fuel. similar costs to what ive just mentioned, less fuel.

an even easier example to grasp (unless like i say it costs more where you live to register an older car) is the fact that as you say, after 4 or 5 years whatever car youve bought will have depreciated by 50%. so 30k has turned into 15k. if someone were to buy that (now) second hand car, i cant see that it would cost another 15k to maintain for another 4 or 5 years. in fact, most cars are good for about 10 years. which is what jdurg is aiming at, which i think is reasonable since the total costs would more closely match that of having bought a second hand car...

what you can get in australia:

obviously shopping around would net better prices and lower kms. this is the first useful site i looked at.

toyota- $2500 to $5000

i would pick the starlets out of these

toyota- $5000 to $10000

later model corollas and camrys would be a good buy

all makes and models- $2500 to $10000

the '97 saab at the bottom for a bit of class. the $2700 ford fairmont near the top if you do what paige was saying and have a spare car  :) the mercedes 190e for $5990 looks like a fair deal

a couple of new cars (too many to have a useful list)

toyota yaris $15190

toyota camry $29,500

they happen to be quite close in price to my ball park figures! there are of course cheaper and more expensive brands. i picked toyota because everyone agrees they arent a bad make and tend to hold their value well (compared to others)

for registration purposes, the only thing they look at in australia, canada and the US is the type of car (sports, truck sedan etc) size of engine and number of cylinders/rotors. the age is irrelevant. how do these prices compare to holland? this could solve a few problems we seem to be having...

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