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What a horrible thing to do to a child.

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AtomSmasher:

--- Quote from: shmokes on April 09, 2008, 12:15:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: AtomSmasher on April 09, 2008, 11:26:43 am ---the picture was my dad as a big monster rearing up with a belt yelling "arg!" and me cowering in the corner saying "help me." 

--- End quote ---

I think this illustrates the problem.  Kids have a very limited ability to suss out complex situations.  They can't put things into context.  They have no experience.  It's why scary movies ---fudgesicle--- with them so much.  If you ever had to deal with a bully in school, you can understand where that picture came from.  Except unlike a fellow third or fourth grader that happens to be bigger, he is faced with physical violence from someone at least five times his size.  And you can scoff all you want, and roll your eyes about my characterization of spanking as violence, but how else do you explain the drawing?  This is from someone who grew up and says that he was hardly ever even spanked.  Hell, Myntik1 said himself that he hopes that his kids will be good because they will be afraid of getting spanked.  I don't think your children should fear physical violence from someone five times their size.  It's fundamentally wrong. 

I think it's wrong to determine whether the means of hitting (or spanking if you insist on the euphemism) your kids is okay solely on the ends of whether you leave a bruise or a scar.  The scar that matters is psychological.


--- End quote ---
So you consider a kid being upset that he was punished a psychological scar?  I bet recently theres been a ton of kids drawing pictures about how they hate time outs and how mean their parents are for making them sit in the corner.  Its only an effective punishment if the child doesn't like it.  Just about everyone I know was spanked as a child.  As long as its only done on extreme occasions, it is an effect punishment without leaving psychological scars.


--- Quote from: Ed_McCarron on April 09, 2008, 12:00:17 pm ---I don't think I'd even use a belt. 
--- End quote ---
It was more that the belt became the symbol for the punishment and not a way to increase the pain.  Instead of saying you will be spanked if you don't stop, it was "don't make me get the hearing aid".  My dad was a body builder when he was younger, so he easily could of inflicted massive damage with his bare hands if he wanted to.  Also, I remember being grounded in my room a lot more often then I remember being spanked, so it definately was just another tool in the toolbox.

Dartful Dodger:

--- Quote from: ChadTower on April 09, 2008, 09:49:06 am ---
Discipline is once or twice.  Beating is going past that. 
--- End quote ---

It depends on whether or not he was playing online.

Disrupting online play would require more discipline.

ChadTower:

--- Quote from: Jdurg on April 09, 2008, 12:24:56 pm ---Spanking is abuse when there is no intent to change the child's behavior for his/her own benefit.  If the intent of the spanking is to relieve a parent's frustration or anger, or just to make the parent happy, that is abuse.

--- End quote ---

I think that's the difference, too.  Looking back on my childhood that's pretty much how I view it.  There were times I got spanked that were disciplinary - and limited to the scope of what I did - that even then I didn't have a real problem with.  When it crossed the line to venting because of things that had nothing to do with me, yet I happened to have one coming that day so I was a convenient target, even at 5 years old I knew that wasn't fair.  When the scope of the punishment ended up exceeding what I did, and sometimes it far exceeded it, those were the days it happened.  The line between discipline and abuse had been crossed.

The psychological scar topic is a very valid one, too.  Those are the scars that never go away.  Proper discipline, within control, and within the scope of the infraction doesn't leave that type of scar.  Or maybe that's just my take on it when compared with the memories of worse incidents.

myntik1:
this may or may not have anything to do with the topic

I'm old school in my thinking.  I shouldn't have to ask my son to do things multiple times.  I definitely growl, by afterwards i try to explain why I growled.  That's something my dad never did.  The other half often has to ask 3-4 times to get something done.  And her method of discipline is a timeout.  We even have a timeout bench for the little guy.  The last couple nights he's been down in the basement helping me put on vinyl molding and do other odds and ends.  He knows what he can touch and what he can't.  I can bring him anywhere and he'll behave. Doesn't matter if it's the museum, library, home depot, or toy store.  She can't take him anywhere.  He knows what the limits are and he tests them.  She thinks I'm stifling his creativity and his ability to express himself.  We run, laugh, giggle, and play with the best of them.  The difference is fear.  He can run away from mommy because she'll chase after him and give him a mild mannered warning.  Dad will growl.  He doesn't want to hear the growl, so he's better behaved when he's out with me. I guess I should say as well behaved as a 3yr old can be for any length of time.  It's the new age way of thinking.  If my son needs to be scared of me to keep him safe or in line then that's what I need to do.  I love the fact that my son wants to be with me all of the time, but at the end of the day we all have to follow rules and there is consuquences for our actions.  I would rather he learn some of the lessons he needs at home then expecting everyone to give him multiple chances.

Dartful Dodger:
Kids are different.  I have two friends that have a boy and a girl.  One boy is out of control.  His parents try to discipline him, but it never takes.  It's like that part of his reasoning hasn't developed yet.  But his sister is fine and she'll listen and she even gets upset when she knows her brother did something wrong and is about to get punished.

The other set is the opposite.  Boy good, girl out of control.  Both sets have the boy as the oldest so it’s not a birth order thing either.

I won’t go with them to any store or place where they can touch or break anything, because they will.

If your kid can reason enough to know that time outs (or getting slapped) is bad then 90% of your battle is won.  But there are kids that can't, and it seems the discipline needs to go to the extremes for it to be effective.

Not condoning beating your kid to death, but I see two negatives that are going to come from this story.  Some people are going to rally to ban slapping and others will rally to ban video games.

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