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| Brand New Trackball 'Spin Time'? |
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| Xiaou2:
Generally, if a trackball has a 1sec or less spin time... there becomes too much friction for certain games to control well. Think about a game like supersprint... where you whip the wheel around with a hard fast turn... and let it spin like 20 times before you grab on again. If the wheel had too much friction... it might only turn 5 times... and not be enough to take the tracks curve at such a great speed. A game like 'crystal castles'... requires good spin times. Yet, mostly, its not so much about the spin time... but that good spin-time means overall that the reduced friction will enable better tracking and control at any speed. I have to wonder why we have not seen a Laser trackball yet. Opticals (mice) were bad, but laser tracking is incredibly high resolution and has superior tracking and reliability to opticals. Using a Laser, one could probably make a trackball that had even less friction than typical arcade optical trackballs. And with software or hardware, one could switch the resolution on the fly - to be able to use the trackball for both arcade and windows applications. As typically... arcade trackballs are a bit too low in resolution for PC control and PC games. |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on March 21, 2008, 12:11:30 am --- Generally, if a trackball has a 1sec or less spin time... there becomes too much friction for certain games to control well. --- End quote --- I actually think 1 second is sufficient for most. Less may be a little limiting for some titles. --- Quote ---Think about a game like supersprint... where you whip the wheel around with a hard fast turn... and let it spin like 20 times before you grab on again. If the wheel had too much friction... it might only turn 5 times... and not be enough to take the tracks curve at such a great speed. --- End quote --- This is kind of an apples to oranges example, and not a very accurate one. The momentum of a large wheel would, by virtue of it's weight, provide a lot of spin. However, that much spin would only be required if it were attached to a very low resolution encoder. According to the info on this page, a single revolution of the wheel on the original game resulted in the car turning 170 degrees. At no time in that game is it necessary for the car to spin around in place 10 times ;). --- Quote --- A game like 'crystal castles'... requires good spin times. --- End quote --- It requires "after spin" but I think "good spin times" needs to be quantified. 1 second? 2 seconds? I played that game quite a bit and never remember seeing a section of the maze needing more than 2 seconds of prolonged spin, let alone 7! Reckless hard spinning usually leads to a quick demise in that particular title. It's more about short, quick and well controlled bursts. --- Quote --- Yet, mostly, its not so much about the spin time... but that good spin-time means overall that the reduced friction will enable better tracking and control at any speed. --- End quote --- I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion. The ultimate reduction of friction would be an air bearing. This would mean virtually no friction, but would be so "touchy" that it would make control nearly impossible. Some friction necessarily offsets the momentum of the heavy ball. Again, I see reasonable after spin and smooth movement to be of greater importance, with solid tracking being at the top of the list. A "zero friction" ball that tracks badly is far worse for control than a ball with higher friction and perfect tracking. --- Quote --- Using a Laser, one could probably make a trackball that had even less friction than typical arcade optical trackballs. --- End quote --- A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball. As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser. RandyT |
| Xiaou2:
This is kind of an apples to oranges example, and not a very accurate one. The momentum of a large wheel would, by virtue of it's weight, provide a lot of spin. However, that much spin would only be required if it were attached to a very low resolution encoder. According to the info on this page, a single revolution of the wheel on the original game resulted in the car turning 170 degrees. At no time in that game is it necessary for the car to spin around in place 10 times Actually, I believe that information is not entirely accurate. The faster you are traveling... the less the car will turn. As far as I remember, that wheel rotated more than one rotation at full speed when handling the heavy turns. However, I dont have my wheel hooked up to make sure of it. I have to disagree somewhat with your conclusion. The ultimate reduction of friction would be an air bearing. This would mean virtually no friction, but would be so "touchy" that it would make control nearly impossible. Some friction necessarily offsets the momentum of the heavy ball. Again, I see reasonable after spin and smooth movement to be of greater importance, with solid tracking being at the top of the list. A "zero friction" ball that tracks badly is far worse for control than a ball with higher friction and perfect tracking. I agree that there should be some friction. However, a typical arcade trackball un-even zones of friction. This causes a distinct control issue... as its giving more friction in certain directions. Horizontal and Vertical will be equal - yet trying to go in a diagonal will result in higher friction, and a possible moment of hesitation as the ball is either jumping, slipping, or trying to overcome the additional friction...etc. A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball. As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser. Optical mice needed patterns. However, the new Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns. I have a logitec Laser mouse, and it tracks on just about anything, flawlessly, without any inturuptions, skips, delays, or loss of tracking of any kind. Its capable of something like 2000dpi. I only use it at about 1000 dpi. (and 500 reports per second) Btw - I love this mouse. Tracks excellent on my chairs arm (squishy-fabric, my pant leg, even on my own arm. Pretty crazy. It even tracks slightly lifted above a surface: from 2mm to 4mm. (2 pretty stable, 4 jumpy) |
| u_rebelscum:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on March 21, 2008, 06:32:35 pm --- --- Quote ---A Laser trackball would have to have a pattern on the ball, just like a standard PC optical trackball. As the image created by the mouse pad (small woven fibers, small surface projections, etc) is far different than those created by a highly polished ball, there may be some inherent limitations as to what more can be achieved by using the laser. --- End quote --- Optical mice needed patterns. However, the new Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns. I have a logitec Laser mouse, and it tracks on just about anything, flawlessly, without any inturuptions, skips, delays, or loss of tracking of any kind. --- End quote --- Neither of the laser mice I have (work: MS laser 5000, home: logitech MX rev) don't like anything polished or waxed. They don't even like my work desktop (faux wood laminate, with grain) if it's clean. I've tried my TBs on my logitech mouse, and it doesn't like the TB much at slow speeds, and doesn't work when the ball is spinning fast. (Haven't tried the MS laser mouse with TB. ;)) A patterned ball might not be needed, but maybe the ball needs some "un-shine". |
| RandyT:
--- Quote from: Xiaou2 on March 21, 2008, 06:32:35 pm --- Actually, I believe that information is not entirely accurate. The faster you are traveling... the less the car will turn. As far as I remember, that wheel rotated more than one rotation at full speed when handling the heavy turns. However, I dont have my wheel hooked up to make sure of it. --- End quote --- My recollection was a quick "spin and grab" to take those 180 corners. I don't believe speed was a factor. Because one had to spin the wheel so quickly, it probably seemed like a lot more. If you have a low resolution wheel, it is a lot more, but it isn't "authentic" control. --- Quote --- I agree that there should be some friction. However, a typical arcade trackball un-even zones of friction. --- End quote --- This is true, but by just how much is hugely dependent upon the condition of both the rollers and the trackball itself. If the rollers and the trackball are new, there is only a tiny contact point between the sphere that is the trackball and the cylinders that are the rollers. As the rollers become worn, they get a 1.5" radius curve worn into them. The longer the curve, the more friction and uneven control. Likewise, if the hard material of a standard trackball becomes scratched or dull, there is no longer a slick surface to slide against the rollers. This increases the drag and will also speed up the decay of the rollers. That's why it is important to keep all of the moving parts clean and in good condition. --- Quote ---Optical mice needed patterns. However, the new Laser based sensors do not appear to need any patterns. --- End quote --- From what I understand, it uses similar technology. It's just that a laser has much higher output than an LED, which means that the image the mouse receives is much brighter and more well defined. The receiver would likely be higher resolution as well. That means that a pattern of some nature, whether it be interference patterns from the interaction of the laser with the material or something else, is still necessary. Most things have a pattern at high magnification, but you probably just can't see them with your unaided eye. Likewise, materials that have a lot of surface scatter will probably drive it nuts. I would expect it to track ok on a beat-up trackball, but I'd be surprised if it worked well on a new one. RandyT |
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