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Hardware 3D Acceleration In Mame

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Popcorrin:


--- Quote from: brandon on March 08, 2008, 12:39:02 pm ---
--- Quote from: DJ_Izumi on March 08, 2008, 12:33:27 pm ---
MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind,
--- End quote ---

Thats a LONG time before I can play MK4 ;)

--- End quote ---

Actually you can play MK4 with a fast processor.

Also, force feedback is possible with mame if you use mamehooker.  The only problem is that the outputs on most of the games are not hooked up yet.

brandon:

hmm.. well, I use the Dreamcast emu for MK4.. I was maining saying that because he said Mame was 1015 years behind.. I typo no doubt but I thought it was funny :)

hbm*rais:

Ok, I was done with this thread a long time ago, but I'll bite it...

The whole point I made about a plug in based emulator is that it would allow for a double path... accurate emulation using a software rendering plug in and playability *today* with a mapping plug in.

A software rendering plug in wouldn't be different of anything that is in MAME today. It would be an accurate (although slow as hell) emulation of the original hardware's GPU, totally powered by the host's CPU. No dependence on hardware 3D, not tied to any API or architecture.

People like you, that see no point in running games on a perfectly fine emulator just because it uses mapping plug ins could install the software rendering plug in and help the developers create an absolutely perfect emulation that everyone of us will be able to enjoy sometime around 2015.

All the while, people that are not quite so anal about the level of alpha blending of the explosions on Ikaruga or Under Defeat not being absolutely correct can go on using these games for what they were created, to be played, not to be examined under a microscope to find pixel level imperfections.

If memory serves me correctly, that's exactly what's happening to PJ64 now. I think I remember reading that, now that computers are more powerful, they are concentrating on creating a software renderer that will run more games, more accurately. But of course, people have been enjoying Mario64 and his friends on their computers for years now.

AGAIN, my comments are about emulators in general. I'm not talking about MAME. I'm not complaining about MAME. I'm not suggesting anything to the MAMEDevs.




--- Quote from: Jdurg on March 08, 2008, 12:47:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: DJ_Izumi on March 08, 2008, 12:33:27 pm ---If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

--- End quote ---

Heh.  I'm still looking for a plugin based emulator that isn't wrought with bugs and compatibility issues and is able to set up without having a doctorate in computer science.  I downloaded NullDC the other day and while it is a mighty fine emulator, the fact that everything is plugin based has made running games on it almost pointless.  How the heck are you going to be able to fix bugs when they happen on one plugin but not another, and not on everybody's computer at the same time?  Plus, having to use different plugins for different games is just a complete pain, especially if you are building a cabinet.  The common flaw I see in EVERY SINGLE PLUGIN BASED EMULATOR are graphics issues relating to the fact that the plugins aren't compatible with every video card or videocard driver out there.  All the graphical garbage can be blamed on the video plugins, but trying to de-bug them is nearly impossible.

If it worked well, then fine.  A plugin based emulator might work.  In reality, it doesn't work very well and leads to a near impossible attempt to fix any bugs.

--- End quote ---


Jdurg:

If the general populace wasn't so completely stupid, then it wouldn't be a problem doing this.  (And I'm not stating that everybody here is stupid.  If you hang around emulation forums long enough, you know the type of people I'm referring to.   ;D).  To have MAME also support plugins would require at LEAST twice as much work for the MAMEDevs, or anybody else working on MAME.  In addition, bug reports would have to be separated into "Plugin based MAME Bugs" and "Standard MAME Bugs".  The "kiddies" who are out there to play games only will flood their inboxes with demands and questions because they can't get their plugin version to work without a bunch of bugs.


For those of us who want a bug-free experience with MAME, the inclusion of the plugin system will severely hurt that.  If somebody wants to go and make a derivative of MAME that supports plugins and buggy emulation, then they can go right ahead and do that.  I just don't want to see the standard version of MAME support that and all the problems it will cause.




--- Quote from: hbm*rais on March 08, 2008, 03:19:56 pm ---Ok, I was done with this thread a long time ago, but I'll bite it...

The whole point I made about a plug in based emulator is that it would allow for a double path... accurate emulation using a software rendering plug in and playability *today* with a mapping plug in.

A software rendering plug in wouldn't be different of anything that is in MAME today. It would be an accurate (although slow as hell) emulation of the original hardware's GPU, totally powered by the host's CPU. No dependence on hardware 3D, not tied to any API or architecture.

People like you, that see no point in running games on a perfectly fine emulator just because it uses mapping plug ins could install the software rendering plug in and help the developers create an absolutely perfect emulation that everyone of us will be able to enjoy sometime around 2015.

All the while, people that are not quite so anal about the level of alpha blending of the explosions on Ikaruga or Under Defeat not being absolutely correct can go on using these games for what they were created, to be played, not to be examined under a microscope to find pixel level imperfections.

If memory serves me correctly, that's exactly what's happening to PJ64 now. I think I remember reading that, now that computers are more powerful, they are concentrating on creating a software renderer that will run more games, more accurately. But of course, people have been enjoying Mario64 and his friends on their computers for years now.

AGAIN, my comments are about emulators in general. I'm not talking about MAME. I'm not complaining about MAME. I'm not suggesting anything to the MAMEDevs.




--- Quote from: Jdurg on March 08, 2008, 12:47:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: DJ_Izumi on March 08, 2008, 12:33:27 pm ---If you were to go and look at the emulation plugin system used by ePSXe or others, you'll notice that it's buggy, slow, complicated, and the varrying settings can have a wildly different effect on different games.  And that's to do hardware rendering for ONE piece of hardware, ONE.

Mame has to support a wide range of hardware and varying games for that hardware.  Mame is not behind the times, Mame is faced with a monumental task and hardware acceleration of 3D just won't happen, it'll make Mame FAR more difficult to work with, to run games on, and to build in the first place.  Right now, Mame bascily only using the CPU for all it's work means it's pretty easy to work with, not to mention building a Mame machine is fairly simple, all that's a concern is the CPU and the RAM.  Just about any graphics adaptor will do, depending on your video output needs.

MAME will always be 1015 or so years behind, it's just the way it's going to be and it's part of the nature of emulation.  However that may change one day, as many recent arcade systems are more based on consumer PC hardware, emulating them may be a lot easier once that area is reached.  Maybe in only 5 years we'll see a Sega Chihiro emulator. :)

--- End quote ---

Heh.  I'm still looking for a plugin based emulator that isn't wrought with bugs and compatibility issues and is able to set up without having a doctorate in computer science.  I downloaded NullDC the other day and while it is a mighty fine emulator, the fact that everything is plugin based has made running games on it almost pointless.  How the heck are you going to be able to fix bugs when they happen on one plugin but not another, and not on everybody's computer at the same time?  Plus, having to use different plugins for different games is just a complete pain, especially if you are building a cabinet.  The common flaw I see in EVERY SINGLE PLUGIN BASED EMULATOR are graphics issues relating to the fact that the plugins aren't compatible with every video card or videocard driver out there.  All the graphical garbage can be blamed on the video plugins, but trying to de-bug them is nearly impossible.

If it worked well, then fine.  A plugin based emulator might work.  In reality, it doesn't work very well and leads to a near impossible attempt to fix any bugs.

--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---


DJ_Izumi:

Yes, I ment to say '10-15 years', but I acknowledge that some newer games are working while some older games arn't.  Personally, I'm a light gun fan and I've collected as many console ports of such games as I could have but there are still plenty of games that didn't and won't have console ports.  (And ---gosh-darn---, the Playstation 1 Area 51 port is PICKY about light guns.  GRRRRRR.)

As I see it however, building yourself some monsterious dual quad core machine for MAME will still be a LOT cheaper than buying the boards or even complete cabs for just a handful of arcade games.

And I have to admit, that I like the arcade versions of some games better, as they allow you to throw in additional players on the fly and if the games are left unattended the quickly go to attract mode and I such fond memories of being that kid without quarters and watching the arcade games in attract mode. :)

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