Rotary joysticks...

[isucamper]

Good news.  The list I made was just for which games recognized the 1-click, 1-turn functionality when putting the analog settings on 0%and 100%.  I was wondering how playable the other games would be by fine tuning the settings to get them as close as possible.  Its great that they are playable. 

Now, if only Front Line could be configured to use these rotary controls.

[jasonbar]

TPB,

Yup, I did a test on 1 game that had an 8-way stick & 2 buttons.  I mapped the 2 buttons to a CW & CCW stick rotation.  It works, though I hated trying to play if for even a few moments.  :]

-Jason

Would you be able to test, whether these sticks can be used in games that DON'T use rotary sticks.

Can they be used in ANY game at all, so that the stick rotation (to the left or right) can be mapped to a couple of buttons within the game ?

Sure, it's not game-authentic to "map the controls" in this manner.  But it'd be nice to know whether it works :

[TPB]

Thanks Jason !   


That's good to know.

This could have uses, such as changing gears in driving games (up = clockwise, down = anti-clockwise).

[isucamper]

Unfortunately, it would appear that in newer versions of MAME, setting the positional speed to 0 and the sensitivity to 100 no longer results in 1-click, 1-turn functionality for games using the snk.c driver (Ikari, Guerilla War, etc). 

Not sure when they broke it, but it's working in .123 and not working in .127.

[isucamper]

Now that my cabinet is together, I started playing around with some of the rotary games that don't support the 1click-1turn functionality in MAME version .123 (using my Happ mechanical rotary sticks).  Starting with Heavy Barrel, I could not get the game playable (by my own high standards) and I began searching for analog settings on the interwebs.  I came across this site:

http://mame.hower.us/rotary/

On this page you can download a modified version of MAME .63 which added 1click-1turn functionality for several rotary games.  This version of MAME accomplishes the task differently than .123.  There are actually dedicated digital buttons set up for left and right turns.  Pretty slick really, and far more useable and understandable than having to set your analog settings to magic numbers like in .123.  I imagine some of you are aware of this special version of MAME, as the author calls out BYOAC.

Mostly, the SNK games are supported, so there is some overlap between this modified version of .63 and what I've been using with .123.  However, there are several games supported in .63 that aren't supported in .123.  The complete list that this version supports is as follows:

ikari
victroad
tnk3
timesold
gondo
hbarrel
gwar
Bermuda Triangle
midnight resistance

So between the official .123 version of MAME, and this modified version of .63, you can have true mechanical rotary support for almost every single game that used it in the arcades.  I think the only exception is Downtown (Caliber 50 is not supported, but I hear that was an optical rotary game to begin with). 

Pretty awesome if you ask me.  If you were ever holding back on going with mechanical sticks because of incomplete support in MAME, you don't have an excuse anymore.  I've got MALA calling out the two different versions and it all works great. 

Also, I wanted to chime in a bit on the GP-Wiz40.  This is a gamepad inteface by Groovey Game Gear which supports mechanical rotary functionality.  I had started my panel with an IPAC and Ultimarc's rotary interface, but then I heard about the GP-Wiz40 and how it could support Taito rotary games like Frontline and Tin Star (both these games are pretty important to me to have on my cab).  So I picked one up.  Since I was using the button harnesses on my U360s, I realized I could replace both my IPAC and my Ultimarc rotary interface with the GP-Wiz40 and have plenty of room for everything on my 4 player panel.  I had absolutely no problems with either of Ultimarcs products, they both performed excellently, but the GP-Wiz fits my needs better (and is the far cheaper solution). 

The Roto X functionality of the GP-Wiz is actually pretty versatile.  Back when the Ultimarc interface came out, there was a lot of issues with the timing of the pulses that the unit put out, and users were actually going back and forth with Andy as he tweaked this in the firmware.  With the GP-Wiz, you can actually use a software interface to tweak the timings yourself.  A great little feature that should make the product a little more future proof as the MAME programmers tweak things.

As far as it's performance goes, it works great.  I couldn't tell a between it and Ultimarc's interface when playing the SNK games.  Even better, I was able to (more) accurately play my first game of Tin Star in about 20 years. 

There is, however, one small problem with the Frontline / Tin Star support.  It's actually more than a nit than anything, as both games are completely playable the way things are.  The arcade versions of these games used a very funky rotary setup:

http://www.westcontrols.com/files/pictures.php?snap=../pictures/cpanel/frontlin.jpg

The rotary dial looked like a spinner but it was actually an 8-way joystick with an actuator on it that clicked into position as you turned it.  Turning the stick moved the actuator one position.  The actuator would always rest on the joystick microswitches causing the signal that got sent to the game to be "always-on" as if you were holding a joystick up or down or diagonal or whatever. 

MAME emulates this faithfully, allowing 8-way joystick support for your aiming in Front Line and Tin Star.  However, the RotoX software in the GP-Wiz does not send an "always on" signal when in Frontline/Tin Star mode.  It sends a pulse as defined by the RotoX profiler.  So, when playing the games, if your aim is ever reset (as does in between levels in Tin Star or when you die in Front Line) your aim will start off pointing north, but when you turn the stick, your aim will jump to whereever it was before you died.  This is different in the aracde versions where, if you die, the software resets your aim, but the joystick actuator is always pressing in the last direction you were aiming, so your aim jumps back immediatly to where it was before you died without the player even realized that anything happened.

This effect is kind of hard to explain.  It is really a small issue and it won't screw you up if you are aware of it, but I just wanted to get it documented.  Both games are entirely playable and I've had a lot of fun with both of them (lets do Front Line for our next game competition!!! That game is brutal!!!).  I've also let Randy know and he said he'd try to find time to address it, though there may be memory limitations in the firmware which could prevent him from being able to send an "always-on" signal when in Frontline/Tin Star mode.

One other small draw back of the GP-Wiz.  In order to hook up my Happ mechanical sticks, I had to cut off the nice little wiring harness that comes attached to the rotary interface.  There were ways around this (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=87109.0, but they required some work.  Not a big deal, but the Ultimarc interface is made to connect to these harnesses.  If I ever wanted to sell these sticks or switch back to the Ultimarc interface, I will have screwed myself. 

Despite these small issues, I am completely happy with using the GP-Wiz at the foundation for my control panel.  It's been about 2 months, and the thing has been rock solid.  I really believe it to be one of the most versitile and cost effective interfaces out there. 

---Cleveland steamer---.  Sorry for the long post. 

[geocab]

Just wondering if anything has changed between MAME .123 and .129 in the rotary games area?  Or is the solution Isucamper just posted the best bet for those who want to play with mechanical rotaries?

[Lilwolf]

I'm not sure if this is part of the problems or not... but...

The games that where all working on the first list used a different input scheme then the others.  Ikari's used a all off but one button scheme (1000g000) -> (0100g000) on the pins (or whatever).  Many of the others where (0111g1111) -> (1011g1111)  (I think that was the other scheme).  I'm guessing that the code to convert these in mame is different.

btw, is anyone looking at giving a direct connect in mame again like in analog mame? 

Also, with the digital, is it near 100% (quick turn left 5 positions, then quick right 5 positions and the guns there instantly and pointing exactly where you would expect it??)  If so, I would LOVE to know... This was always the problem before (and why I never bought the converters)... If so (even if only a portion of the games work) I would pick up one asap!

Thanks

[isucamper]

Just wondering if anything has changed between MAME .123 and .129 in the rotary games area?  Or is the solution Isucamper just posted the best bet for those who want to play with mechanical rotaries?

Haven't tried .129, but I know that the functionality that works in .123 does not work in .127 and .128.

Also, with the digital, is it near 100% (quick turn left 5 positions, then quick right 5 positions and the guns there instantly and pointing exactly where you would expect it??)  If so, I would LOVE to know... This was always the problem before (and why I never bought the converters)... If so (even if only a portion of the games work) I would pick up one asap!

If you're asking if 1-click equals 1-turn 100% of the time, yes, this is true.  That is, if you're using one of the solutions I've listed above (.123 with 0/100 set in analog settings or the modified version of .63).

[jasonbar]

isucamper, thank you so much for posting about this 63 rotary hack.  This got 4 of my games from "plays pretty OK" status to "perfect" status!  And they're all good ones, so that makes me really happy!  Gondomania, Heavy Barrel, Midnight Resistance, & Time Soldiers.  Unfortunately, I've got the nag screens on these now, using the exe I downloaded from http://mame.hower.us/rotary/ , but it's totally worth it for proper game play!


I revisited *all* the rotary games & figured out which MAME to use.  My "main" MAME is 115, optimized for my processor, & w/ the hi-score/no nag patch.

The only game that's odd is TNK III.  When I run it on 115, the turret rotation is almost completely unresponsive for the first 10-40 seconds.  Then it's perfect.  In 63rotary, it's perfect from the start of the game.  In the interest of not having nag screens, I decided to stick w/ 115 for this game.  Weird...

Here's my summary, for those who care.

(Sorry about the porr formatting--putting it into a fixed-width font made it wrap around the screen way too far & the tabs didn't line up anyway...   Screen grab of my spreadsheet attached for clarity)



Name   ROM   Jason w/ 115   63 rotary claims   Comments
Bermuda Triangle <newer>   bermudat   perfect   good   use 115
Bermuda Triangle <older>   bermudaa   perfect   good   use 115
Caliber 50   calibr50   playable, not perfect   not fixed but good   use 115, 63 is the same
Downtown   downtown   works pretty well   not fixed   don't have 63 roms
Exterminator   exterm   fine   no coment   use 115, 63 is the same
Forgotton Worlds   forgottn   no comment   optical but works well   use 115, 63 is the same
Gondomania   gondo   OK   good   use 63
Guerilla War   gwar   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Heavy Barrel   hbarrel   well enough   good   use 63
Ikari Warriors   ikari   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Ikari III   ikari3   perfect   not fixed   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Midnight Resistance   midresu   pretty good   good   use 63
Search and Rescue   sercharu   perfect   not fixed   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Time Soldiers   timesold   decent   perfect   use 63
TNK III   tnk3   perfect after "warming up"   perfect   use 115 to avoid warning screens
Top Gunner   topgunbl   decent   not fixed   use 115, 63 is the same
Touchdown Fever   tdfever   seems good   optical but works well   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Victory Road   victroad   perfect   good   use 115, didn't bother w/ 63
Xybots   xybots   fine   N/A   wrong stick but plays fine in 115


Hope this is helpful--I have my recommend 115 analog settings posted above in this thread.

Thanks,
-Jason

[isucamper]

I agree, the nag screens are annoying.  It'd be nice to get the .63 diffs updated for a more recent version of mame so we could compile in the hi score/no nag... but oh well. 

[isucamper]

Jeez, I dont' know what's with my memory these days.  Mame63 was made back in the day when MAME was quite a bit more versatile than it is now.  You can actually turn off the nag screens. 

Just add the following to the command line or set these to 1 in your .ini:

-skip_disclaimer -skip_gameinfo

Now if only it saved high scores!!

[XtraSmiley]

Back from the dead on this topic.  Thanks for posting your research guys, good Wiki stuff there indeed.

So, the real question is, has anyone hit the MAME guys up to see if we can get .130 up to speed so we don't have so many near perfect solutions?

[jasonbar]

Just add the following to the command line or set these to 1 in your .ini:

-skip_disclaimer -skip_gameinfo

I'm glad your MEMORY is only semi-bad.  Thanks for remembering that.  Just set those 2 items to 1 in the .ini & they launch straight into the game from my FE now.  Woohoo!

Thanks,
-Jason


edit: forgot the word "MEMORY".  I guess my sentence construction is also semi-bad...

[isucamper]

So, the real question is, has anyone hit the MAME guys up to see if we can get .130 up to speed so we don't have so many near perfect solutions?

I wouldn't know how to go about doing this.  I have a feeling they would be unreceptive.  Seeing as they removed the 1-click/1-turn functionality that was in .123 (somewhere, in one of the update logs, one of the developers called this a "hack" and he removed it), I doubt they are going to help us out.

It's puzzeling.  They are always so anal about faithful replication of the original hardware, but the only support they've given us for these mechanical rotary games is analog spin support, and that's not being faithful at all.

I suppose I shouldn't complain too much.  I could always do the work and submit the code myself... but who has time for that?

[Derrick Renaud]

I have a feeling they would be unreceptive.  Seeing as they removed the 1-click/1-turn functionality that was in .123 (somewhere, in one of the update logs, one of the developers called this a "hack" and he removed it), I doubt they are going to help us out.

I don't recall anyone ever intentionally removing it, but it did get broken somewhere along the line.  Same with autocenter.  I fixed it when I noticed it was broken.  A bug report about it would have brought it to our attention sooner.

Per the 130 text:
Fixed Analog settings so Digital and Autocenter Speeds are applied
properly in real time. Fixed Digital Speed = 0 so it increments in
single steps per button press. [Derrick Renaud]

[XtraSmiley]

Thanks for the reply Derrick.  I was about to post over at MAME World, but you read this in time.

The problem is, when we start asking MAME Devs to do things, well, that's just a no-no with some of them, and I can understand b/c no one wants a million requests coming their way.  Of course, now that we have you here...

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

[Derrick Renaud]

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

As u_rebelscum has already stated, there is nothing to fix.  The SNK games used a positional control.  The other games use dial/optical controls.

Positional controls can be stepped through each individual step.  The dial controls can also be single stepped.  This causes them to increase 1 optical count per press.  But the arcade games then scale this down themselves.  Exterminator needs 6 counts per onscreen step.  Heavy Barrel needs around 21 steps.

This is how the original games worked.  There is nothing to fix.  That is why an optical rotary control is more universal then a mechanical one.  A mechanical control has a lower res then an optical control.  You can easily scale down from more counts but not up.  Read all the threads about why a hi-res spinner is better then a lo-res for more info.

I suppose if MAME allowed 2100% sensitivity....

[XtraSmiley]

Did you fix this will all the rotary games so they work correctly, or only the SNK ones mentioned earlier that somehow were broken recently?

As u_rebelscum has already stated, there is nothing to fix.  The SNK games used a positional control.  The other games use dial/optical controls.

Positional controls can be stepped through each individual step.  The dial controls can also be single stepped.  This causes them to increase 1 optical count per press.  But the arcade games then scale this down themselves.  Exterminator needs 6 counts per onscreen step.  Heavy Barrel needs around 21 steps.

This is how the original games worked.  There is nothing to fix.  That is why an optical rotary control is more universal then a mechanical one.  A mechanical control has a lower res then an optical control.  You can easily scale down from more counts but not up.  Read all the threads about why a hi-res spinner is better then a lo-res for more info.

I suppose if MAME allowed 2100% sensitivity....

Ah, OK, so, I'm not following 100%, but basically turning my controller once (a step or a [ or ]) only counts as one, but MAME can currently make it count up to more in the TAB menu.  Games that need it to count as 6 are good to go, but games that need it to count as more, such as 21 are out of luck because the TAB menu currently doesn't support giving it that much of a multiplier.  Am I following here?

What is the short fall here?  The rotary chip I have?  Can it be upgraded?  Is it going to be easier to get new controllers?  Well, either way, thanks for all your work on this.  Even being able to play just one game in MAME is awesome!

[isucamper]

This is how the original games worked. 

Let me get this straight (I'm slow).  Games like Heavy Barrel, Time Soldiers, and Midnight Resistance... even though their rotary sticks had a click to them, and felt just like the sticks in Ikari Warriors, under the hood they were actually optical and not positional?

Thanks a lot for helping us understand this by the way.

[Derrick Renaud]

Exterminator; Caliber 50; Touchdown Fever; Forgotton Worlds are optical rotary.

Any other game that has a mechanical control should be converted over to Positional.  It looks like Time Solders; Downtown; Heavy Barrel; Gondomania; Midnight Resistance; Top Gunner (bootleg) should be converted over.  When I added Positional, I did not know all the games that use that style control.

If you can confirm any other game that uses the SNK mechanical control, I will convert it over.  Maybe not till after easter though.  Depends when I find time.

[isucamper]

It looks like Time Solders; Downtown; Heavy Barrel; Gondomania; Midnight Resistance; Top Gunner (bootleg) should be converted over.

A while back I went through all the rotary games to see which ones had positional control and which ones didn't when setting the magic 0/100 settings in the analog controls that work for the SNK games.  In MAME version .123, none of those games you listed worked.

Of those, I have personally played Time Solders, DownTown, Midnight Resistance, and Heavy Barrel on dedicated cabinets and they used positional controls. 

I'll reconfirm that whether these games work or not in the most recent version of MAME when I find some time.

[Derrick Renaud]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

[isucamper]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

You are my hero.   

[XtraSmiley]

For 0.130u4 (missed u3)

Converted downtown, gondo, hbarrel, midres, timesold, topgunbl to use IPT_POSITIONAL.

Hey man, you can't be thanked enough, so thanks again!

Did my post above make any sense to you at all?  I'm not entirely clear how all this works, but either way, thanks for your hard work.

[bkenobi]

I just ran across this thread for the first time today...

Does this new (to me) 1-click/1-turn feature mean that MAME Analog+ is no longer required to accurately play rotary games?  This looks really intriguing...I'll have to give it a try!

[isucamper]

I just ran across this thread for the first time today...

Does this new (to me) 1-click/1-turn feature mean that MAME Analog+ is no longer required to accurately play rotary games?  This looks really intriguing...I'll have to give it a try!

I'm unfamiliar with the version of MAME you're talking about, but yes, you can use an official version.  See the rest of this thread to know what to set your analog settings to, and also to know which versions of MAME support it.  You actually might want to wait til version .130u4 is released in a few weeks, as Derrick added support for all of the games that were missing it.

[bkenobi]

I've read the thread, but I saw no mention of MAME Analog+ (written by U_RebelScum actually) which includes the mods that MC Echer developed.  I've been using it for a while with my setup, but recently deleted my old MAME romset by accident and now can't get it going.  The choice is use a current version or search for an older set for rotary games.   

[XtraSmiley]

Well, with MAMEUI 131, settings 0/100

Ikari Warriors:  Doesn't work 100%
Time Solders:  One for one turning, but not if you spin the controller fast.

Haven't had time to mess with the other games, but anyone else getting different results?

[isucamper]

Well, with MAMEUI 131, settings 0/100

Ikari Warriors:  Doesn't work 100%
Time Solders:  One for one turning, but not if you spin the controller fast.

Haven't had time to mess with the other games, but anyone else getting different results?

I finally got a chance to compile and try version .131.  I'm not seeing the problems you described at all.

I tried Ikari Warriors, Victory Road, TNK3, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, and Gondomania.  They all worked perfectly with Position Digital Speed = 0 and Positional Sensitivity = 100.   Thanks a lot to DR for finally getting this implemented in the games it was missing in and for fixing the games that it was broke in. 

I did have one small issue during the setup.  Just after I set up Time Soldiers for the old 0/100, on player one, when turning clockwise, it would skip the UP direction.  Counter clockwise was ok and either direction was ok on player 2, but on player one, it would consistently skip UP if turning clockwise. 

I quit the game and restarted it and everything was perfect.  I think it might have been some artifact of altering the analog settings.  It was weird.   

[bkenobi]

That's great news!  I'm gonna have to give this a try over the weekend.   

[1UP]

If anyone wants to have a go at converting an existing joystick to rotary, I've found some 12 position switches that might fit the bill at http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/638/1671.pdf which are cheaper than Happ sells them.  Happ does sell the mounting arm for the switch for $0.75 if you search for part # 96-1011-00.

[RandyT]

One thing to watch for when looking for a rotary switch, is full 360 degree operation.  Many will have a "stop" which will not allow you to "rollover" from position 12 to position 1 and vice-versa. 

RandyT

[1UP]

Ah, good point. These probably not many industrial applications that would require continuous 360 movement.  I wonder if it would be possible to remove the stop and have it work.

I was looking into this because I'm working on adding rotation to my Comps, but looks like I'll just be stealing the hardware from my Happs mechanical sticks.  My main concern was to not mess with the existing restrictor arrangement, so a smaller rotary shaft was in order.  Looking thru Mouser, I didn't find any with a smaller shaft, but I found these and thought they might be useful for any DIYers. 

As far as hacking existing sticks for rotary, one concern is that all the rotary switches seem to have 1/4" shafts.  The e-ring groove on the bottom of all Happ shafts is darn close to 1/4" in diameter, so drilling a hole into the bottom of the shaft would likely result in the paper-thin metal snapping off either instantly or during use.  The solution I've come up with is to drill a smaller hole and tap it for a machine screw, then attach a short piece of metal rod to the end of the shaft using a screw and loctite.  The extension has the 1/4" hole for the rotary switch, and a hole for a set screw in the side to hold the switch in place.

[Dazz]

Ok, so I am getting ready to re-do my control panel and would like to finally get rotarys added. 

So, what's the consensus on rotary joys now?  Mechanical or optical?

[isucamper]

Ok, so I am getting ready to re-do my control panel and would like to finally get rotarys added. 

So, what's the consensus on rotary joys now?  Mechanical or optical?

If you want to play mechanical rotary games, you've got full software support for them now in the most recent version of MAME.

However, after getting to know my Happ Rotary sticks a little better, I believe they are suffering from the same oversensitivity that many people are complaining about with new Happ Competition sticks. 

I didn't really notice until I tried Midnight Resistance (the only side scrolling rotary game), but it is far too easy too engage the microswitches on the sticks.  You'll be running to the right and accidentally start ducking.  Quite annoying.  If you barely move the stick in any direction, a switch gets pressed.  This happens on both my Happ rotary sticks.

It's not nearly as noticable on the vertical scrolling shooters, but now that I know it's happening, I'm wondering how I can fix it.     

[brandon]

If anyone wants to have a go at converting an existing joystick to rotary, I've found some 12 position switches that might fit the bill at http://www.mouser.com/catalog/catalogusd/638/1671.pdf which are cheaper than Happ sells them.  Happ does sell the mounting arm for the switch for $0.75 if you search for part # 96-1011-00.

I really wish somebody like RANDY would sell some rotary switches on his site.. 

[jasonbar]

I finally got a chance to compile and try version .131.  I'm not seeing the problems you described at all.

I tried Ikari Warriors, Victory Road, TNK3, Time Soldiers, Heavy Barrel, and Gondomania.  They all worked perfectly with Position Digital Speed = 0 and Positional Sensitivity = 100.   Thanks a lot to DR for finally getting this implemented in the games it was missing in and for fixing the games that it was broke in. 

You are very casual with your use of the word "finally"!  I finally got around to trying this out!  So there!    I downloaded 132 & compiled it with the hi score & no-nag patch.  Awesome.

All these games work splendidly!  Thanks for the MAME update, Derrick!!!

Now.................about Cal .50.......think you can work the same magic on that game too?   

Thanks,
-Jason

[isucamper]

that game used an optical rotary that spun freely (no clicks) so it's unlikely that the MAME team would support positional controls on it.  it does play great with a regular joystick and a turbo twist high low spinner though! 

[bkenobi]

So you have to use a 3rd hand to hit the fire button?   

[isucamper]

that game used an optical rotary that spun freely (no clicks) so it's unlikely that the MAME team would support positional controls on it.  it does play great with a regular joystick and a turbo twist high low spinner though!