Restoring vs. Maming a cabinet - The complete rule book

[brandon]

2 Certain cabs are typically considered holy and shouldn't be MAME'd. few quick examples of this are Star Wars, Tron, Tempest, Dragons Lair and Major Havoc (Ironically, three of the games on this list are usually gutted because the monitors suck and cost a lot to repair).

...and Dragon's Lair is usually gutted because the laserdisc player is a total ---smurfette---.

right.. and rather than hunt down unreliable and expensive hardware (not to mention the disc) I seen no problem with somebody running Daphne inside of it as long as they're nondestructive and it can be undone.   You could either have a 100% mint machine that plays one game that you keep covered with a sheet and wont let your friends touch it.. or you could have a machine that runs several games that you... still wont let your friends touch

I guess its like classic cars.. do you want something you haul to car shows in an enclosed trailer or do you want something you aren't afraid to drive from coast to coast?  paint chips add character right? Cars (and video games) were meant to be enjoyed. It's the enjoyment that needs to be preserved first and formost.

[ChadTower]

On a true classic, I don't see a problem with using MAME to make it appear original if the original hardware is missing or really dead.  I wouldn't go changing the CP or anything to expand it to additional games, though.  If it was a Galaxian, I would use MAME to make it a Galaxian again, and I may add a couple more simple two way one fire button games without changing the art at all.  Nothing really more than that, though.

[bigh4th]

I think you guys need to step back and re-examine this whole ordeal.

Reguardless of if the galaxian (which is a terrible game, IMHO) boards in his cabinet were working, they were housed inside of an almost 30 year-old plywood box that was beat to hell.

Had he decided to fix (or replace) the monitor, it would still need major cosmetic work to be restored, and even then it wouldn't be like new, unless they used bondo or wood filler at the factory.

He then would have had to find a CP and order a replacement overlay to replace the exsisting replacement.

And after that, the artwork on the cabinet was trashed so bad that it would need to be replaced.

So what it all boils down to is the only things being original are the PCBs hanging off of 30 year old plywood and possibly the wires hooked to them.

So is the nostalgia for the plywood, the cabinets shape, or what?  The only way that cabinet could have been restored is to use original NOS artwork and parts....which even if they do exsist and are usable, are more rare than hens teeth. 

We're not talking about a Tron cabinet, we're talking about a beat to hell Galaxian, which wasn't a popular game to begin with.  It also isn't rare.

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

[ChadTower]

In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price. 

That just means you haven't found your way into the local collectors' circuit yet.  It takes some time.  Once you do generic cabinets really are a phone call or two away at any given time.  I used to say the same things you're saying.

[CheffoJeffo]

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

There are a lot more cabs out there than people think (I can think of a couple of folks posting in this thread who used to lament the troubles with finding cabs and, not that long later, are having to get rid of some to make room ... myself included). It may take a while, but it can be done.

EDIT: Chad got there first ...

And, FWIW, Galaxian is popular among collectors for a numbers of reasons, not the smallest of which is that it was the first RGB game (a rather important event in vid history).

[ChadTower]

I definitely don't see how a game can be both unpopular and common.  Production titles were based on sales which were based on popularity. 

[shardian]

Galaxian was a rally big deal when it came out, but Galaga blew it out of the water not long after. Galaga is the sole reason why I cannot stand to play Galaxian.

[RayB]

Galaxian was a rally big deal when it came out, but Galaga blew it out of the water not long after. Galaga is the sole reason why I cannot stand to play Galaxian.

Same here. It's a milestone in history, but boring.

I used to be of the "save every game" camp, but I'm on the fence these days. I've seen so many free or near-free project cabs pass me by. Can't save em all! So I can't expect anyone else to buy up arcade games they don't want just to save them, if I'm not going to be doing that myself. So I feel I'm in no position to dictate what someone else should do. That would be hypocritical.

But as a general rule, yeah, make mods reversable. Use a 2nd control panel for custom controls and keep the original. Stuff like that.

On the other hand    the more cabs that get destroyed the higher the value of my collection! MOuahahahah!!

[TelcoLou]

Well, here's how I see it:

If a cab has most of its original components (monitor, PCB, power supply, CP), and is in decent physical shape, I would personally go the restore route.

If it's already been gutted, or has many missing, or "beyond economical repair" parts, I guess its morally ok to MAME it.

**note**, this opinion if from a total N00b who is ecstatic  over his recent acquisition of some kind of cabinet whose origin is still a bit of a mystery (came w/o monitor or PCB, ad by the looks of it, was converted at least once)

[stan2323]

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

People seem to forget this.

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

That is what you sound like to me.  “Everyone be dam$$ed just save the games.”  IT IS ONLY A GAME.  There are better things to get wound up about. 

[ahofle]

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

Yeah.  It's well known that original Tron cabinets cause explosive diarrhea and urinary incontinence.  The only known remedy is to remove the black lights and attach a 4 player frankenpanel.

[CheffoJeffo]

Lastly, A lot of you seem to be under the impression than anyone can pick up a phone book or get on craigslist and just find a worthless generic cabinet to mame.....This isn't the case.  In the last year in a 100 mile radius of my location, there have been maybe 3 generic cabinets in the area that weren't selling for an insane price.  A sente, double dragon, and cobal.  all three sold for 75 or less on ebay.  Guess who got them?  An amusement opperator who used e-snipe and then fitted them with poker machine internals.

Aside from those cabinets, the others you see are TMNT, MS. Pac, SFII, and the like all asking $700 or more.

So finding a generic cabinet is not a simple task in many parts of the country.

-Harry

People seem to forget this.

Actually, people just seem to disagree, because they became dialed in and have no problems finding games.

Harry lives in central VA -- I have friends in Richmond and have on occasion considered having them pick up cabs for me. If *I* can find cabs in that area when I live in a different country, I'm pretty sure that Harry should be able to find some too.

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

That is what you sound like to me.  “Everyone be dam$$ed just save the games.”  IT IS ONLY A GAME.  There are better things to get wound up about. 

Hey, Stan ... IT IS ONLY A THREAD.

 

[brandon]

I definitely don't see how a game can be both unpopular and common.  Production titles were based on sales which were based on popularity. 

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

[brandon]

I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

yeah.. like treehuggers that would rather us be at the whim of foreign oil because we cant drill for oil in our own damn country.. BUT thats another topic for another place

As far as the arcade restoration is concerned..  Well, I've restored several games that I didnt even really like just because they were bought as part of the lot.. and when it comes time to sell them you can barely make your money back.   I have a fully restored Ms Pacman cocktail that I'd practically have to give away to sell because they market has been flooded with so many knockoffs... either folks dont know the difference or they'd rather have a 60 in 1 bootleg vs an original PCB that plays one game..  but in many ways I dont blame them.

[Sir Auros]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ****ing flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here. 

This is one of the most newbie-hostile online communities I've ever joined, and the MAME vs. Restore crap is a big part of it. At least, that's how I perceive it.

Edited because the autocensor doesn't pick up the f-word for some reason.

[protokatie]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ---smurfing--- flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here.

I know where to get a '57 chevy that you could put the cab on! Hell, around here would could even get the news crew to start the fire!

Meh, as I have said before, it is good to restore an old cab, but not necissary!

[DaveMMR]

Honestly, the more I read these stupid, ****ing flamefests and bashing on excited newbies with cabinets some consider classics, the more I want to just buy and destroy an old cab, post the video to youtube, and post a link to it in every active thread here. 

This is one of the most newbie-hostile online communities I've ever joined, and the MAME vs. Restore crap is a big part of it. At least, that's how I perceive it.

Edited because the autocensor doesn't pick up the f-word for some reason.

It's only hostile to those who skip the manifesto and forum rules.   Sorry you perceive it as such but....  well, are you expecting to win support with your "outrageous" comments?   

[yalborap]

Okay, I look at it this way.

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with?

A worthless, damn, plywood box. As long as you don't break the internals, and you don't destroy the artwork, what you do to that worthless plywood box DOES NOT MATTER. Because no, just because that wood is 20 years old does not mean it's even vaguely valuable. It's still cheap plywood. Now, if someone made a gorgeous, amazing, uber-rare hardwood cab that looks like the finest oak desks mated with a Tron cab to produce the single best thing ever? Yeah, sure, that's valuable.

But again. Cheap, crappy plywood. Does not matter.

Side art, internal components? DO matter. Parts were, to my knowledge, saved or have entered the collections of people who can use them. The rest, does not matter. The only thing we must preserve is that which effects the experience and cannot be recreated.

But that's just me. And I'm a mere 16 year old who wasn't around for the arcade days, so maybe I'm talking out  ---my bottom---.

[Sir Auros]

Re:DaveMMR

It's attitudes like yours that make me think that for all of saint's hard work monitoring the boards, this is one of the most antisocial forums I've used. No, I don't expect support, but I'll damn-well voice my opinion whether or not the more extremist nerds here like it.

[RayB]

Actually this site's pretty cool. Even the debates have some intelligence to them. Visit any other forum related to a really "mainstream" topic (like car modding) and you'll see a rather huge IQ drop in the discussions compared to here.

[brandon]

Re:DaveMMR

It's attitudes like yours that make me think that for all of saint's hard work monitoring the boards, this is one of the most antisocial forums I've used. No, I don't expect support, but I'll damn-well voice my opinion whether or not the more extremist nerds here like it.

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

[solderguy1]

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab. 

[protokatie]

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab.

HEY! No matter what, you should never promote alcohol abuse to children, esp baby seals!

[yalborap]

I think the majority or people here say "well, to each his own"  but then you have the the very vocal minority that acts like you're clubbing a baby seal

I'd club a baby seal if I saw it mame-ing an 80s cab. 

And I'd club an 80s cab if I saw it MAMEing a baby seal. 

Since this place needs a bit of a humor injection and all these days...

[SavannahLion]

Actually, people just seem to disagree, because they became dialed in and have no problems finding games.

Some of us aren't quite so dialed into the local collectors scene. I've received a message once in a while asking where I get my cabs and I consider finding cabs of interest equally as problematic as finding a unicorn's feather. I think the stumbling block for those of us on the low side of the collectors scene is actually finding someone to start building our cabinet "network."

[Singapura]

I would trade all my unicorn feathers for a good cab. I would club a baby unicorn for a good cab!

[Avrus]

I would trade all my unicorn feathers for a good cab. I would club a baby unicorn for a good cab!

You don't have to club it, just cut the horn off. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I think the stumbling block for those of us on the low side of the collectors scene is actually finding someone to start building our cabinet "network."

I would agree with that statement -- I was a complete blank, other than a solitary eBay purchase for a long time. Once I found pseudo-local folks, problem solved. Then I had a new problem ... no space or time.

[CheffoJeffo]

Actually this site's pretty cool. Even the debates have some intelligence to them. Visit any other forum related to a really "mainstream" topic (like car modding) and you'll see a rather huge IQ drop in the discussions compared to here.

And I would add that some of the folks being labelled as anti-social or hostile-to-newbs are among the more helpful members of the community.

[Fozzy The Bear]

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with? A worthless, damn, plywood box.

You know what.... You're absolutely right! It's a worthless damned plywood box.

But it's only a worthless damned plywood box because it's had all of that stripped out of it. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Lets take a faberge egg remove the jewels, remove the gold hardware, sand the translucent enamel off the surface and give it a nice coat of white paint to freshen it up. What have you got now... A nice bright white paste egg, completely worthless and unrestorable but still nice and bright.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

[csa3d]

You know what matters to me? The internals and artwork. And if you can strip the artwork off and gut the parts, you know what you're left with? A worthless, damn, plywood box.

You know what.... You're absolutely right! It's a worthless damned plywood box.

But it's only a worthless damned plywood box because it's had all of that stripped out of it. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Lets take a faberge egg remove the jewels, remove the gold hardware, sand the translucent enamel off the surface and give it a nice coat of white paint to freshen it up. What have you got now... A nice bright white paste egg, completely worthless and unrestorable but still nice and bright.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear) 

Well, then put the jewels back on it, a bit of touch up, and it no longer smells like a rotten egg.
-csa

[shardian]

Let me put my 2 cent in here.  All you that want to preserve “history” here is one for you to think about.  In my town a guy had an old house and the windows were real lead stained glass.  They were making his daughter sick.  He replaced them with new windows.  Well the town historical society sued him to make him put the original windows back in AND WON.  He owned the house out right and it was not on any historical registry or anything like that.  I am sick to death of people that care more about preserving history, animals, or any other thing at the expense of someone else’s health or finances but not there own.

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

[MadGamer]

This has been a very interesting read and all seem to have one or two good points. So I figured I would throw my two cents in. I'm all for preservation of most things and so are most that's why antiques and museums are so popular. But what determines something to be worth preserving. We have a local museum and a friend and I on a whim decided to stop one day. We paid to get in not very much maybe $2.00. As we entered the first room it was completely filled with bowls. We went back to the curator and said what's with all the bowls. He replied its soup tureen month here at the museum. The whole museum display was soup tureens, big small colorful bowls. I felt so ripped off I mean who really gives a rats *ss about soup bowls not me. So it's something you care about that's worth preserving to you. And the best place to do that is in your memories and that's why we care about these games. We want to relive our childhoods going to the arcade where all it cost was a quarter and you can go far away where there were no cares or worries even if it was only temporary you knew you were always just one quarter away. So you want to preserve something preserve the game rooms we all remember. That what's worth preserving? Not some collector who has the means to restore a machine that they can keep it in there own collection. But for the kid who only has a quarter.

[ChadTower]

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

The Atari version of ET was not commercial equipment costing thousands of dollars per unit.   

[FrizzleFried]

Well,  I am tired of defending the MAME community over at KLOV.  They point to Galaxians being gutted,  Dig Dugs,  being killed,  etc as a reason why MAME is the anti-christ and I try to point out that RESPONSIBLE MAMEers don't kill classic dedicated cabs.   Hard to do that when so many ARE.

I got in to arcade collecting through MAME.  My first cabinet was a beat to hell Robocop that had been converted to a Street Fighter II that had been gutted.  I have a soft spot for MAME and even though I have 11 dedicated arcade cabinets,  I still have 3 MAMEd cabinets among them.   I get defensive when arcade collectors go on a tirade about MAME and how it's killing cabs... but damn,  it's hard to be defensive when (it seems) so many people don't give two shits whether they destroy a classic arcade cabinet or not.

It seems that the arcade collecting community is right...

---fudgesicle--- it...it's your cab...do what you want...doesn't mean I'm not going to call you a --cream-filled twinkie-- for doing so.  If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck,  for some strange reason I highly doubt it's a Humming Bird.

[MaximRecoil]

The Atari version of ET comes to mind...

The Atari version of ET was not commercial equipment costing thousands of dollars per unit.   

Plus it is about as coveted as a bootleg Mahjong machine.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I get defensive when arcade collectors go on a tirade about MAME and how it's killing cabs... but damn,  it's hard to be defensive when (it seems) so many people don't give two shits whether they destroy a classic arcade cabinet or not.

It seems that the arcade collecting community is right...

This is what I've been trying to get through to them. That the collecting community literally hates the BYOAC and Mame, for all the destruction that goes on.  So that's both of us that have been treated like shite elsewhere because we try to support and back up and defend this community with collectors, museums and preservation groups.

The Managing Director of a major UK Science and Technology Museum (while they were organising an exhibit on computer games history), was asking me for assistance. Over dinner I mentioned the BYOAC and that some members might be prepared to loan some machines. He turned to me and said: "Oh those are the people who rip game machines apart to make them play other games aren't they?"  It's almost impossible to defend that perception of this community, when we have people doing exactly that and not giving a crap about it.

I too have had it with this nonsense! Do as you please.... So go ahead! Damage the reputation of this community, damage the reputatioin of Mame, rip machines apart all you like. After all you can do whatever you like with the property you own, right?!. Even if that destroys things for everybody else on the planet.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[TelcoLou]

Hmm. I'm confused. This site's acronym (and a quick check on the wiki) suggests to me, that it's about "Building you own" stuff, not "Restoring Beat-up cabinets back to their original luster" 

[stan2323]

You have a link or something for that story? Is it recent or old? That is absolutely crazy, and I would think it could make national attention.

No I do not it was 10 years ago.  The flood in the area in 2006 destroyed the house along with quite a few others that were along the river.

[ChadTower]

That the collecting community literally hates the BYOAC

Uhm, maybe there, but definitely not here.  People are intelligent enough to discern the difference between what was done with this Galaxian and building your own cabinet from scratch or MAMEing a Dynamo that has been converted 4 times already.  The ones that can't are only going by "what I heard from someone who heard someone said that" or aren't really involved in this hobby.

Truth be told, I probably fall deeper into the "collecting community" than I do BYOAC.  I have built zero cabs and have never MAMEd anything.  I do restorations.