payphone for gameroom...

[lanman31337]

Damn I quoted a 4 year old post.  Go me! 

[Ken Layton]

Seems like quite a few payphones in my area are now being removed from the locations. Must have been at least a dozen of them removed from service in the last month.

[Jim Clark]

Hello; I recently purchased a Western Electric single slot payphone. My intention is to convert it to coinless operation. I thought that by wiring the 2 phone leads to the R/G terminals, I would at least be able to receive an incoming call. The phone rings but no dial tone and lifting the handset does not pick up the call. Is a coinless circuit board required to use the phone at all? Is there troubleshooting that can be performed for this or is a coinless circuit board required. If so, do I need to provide any additional information to ensure I would be getting the right board? I did notice that there is a slot (currently empty) for a battery - looks to be 3v.  Is this required for all phone operation? Any information is appreciated.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ken Layton]

Sounds like you might have a privately owned payphone with a "smart" circuit board in it.

Regulated Bell Telephone operating companies generally do not use any batteries on any payphone boards.

[Jim Clark]

I installed the 3v battery (CR2) into the circuit board last night.  At first there was still no signal to the receiver.  I changed the battery orientation and I was finally getting a dial tone and could pick up an incoming call.  However, I immediate receive a recorded "error 1" message.  I assume that this means I must know program the circuit board, right?

[Ken Layton]

Sounds like you do have a "smart" board payphone. How about some pictures of the inside of your phone showing the boards?

This is what is inside a genuine Western Electric "regulated" telephone company payphone:

http://www.porticus.org/bell/telephones-payphones-modern.html

[Jim Clark]

I have reviewed thos photos before and although they are very similar, the circuitry on the board is much more complex and has a "holder" for a 3v battery that was kind of hard to spot at first.  I wasn't expecting for it to even be there.  I will take pictures tonight and upload.  It was sure good to finally get a dial tone.  The message cuts in almost immediately but at least I know I'm on the right track.

[Jim Clark]

Here are a few pictures of my Western Electric Single slot phone. A little dark but the detail looks good enough.  I'm assuming that programming the board is the next step, but I am unsure of the board type and the process.

[Ken Layton]

That main board is an Elcotel "TSG" board. It is known as a "bright" board (not quite a full smart board) in that it does need some programming but still relies on some signals from the telephone company to operate.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Elcotel-TSG-Pay-Phone-Electronic-Chassis-Circuit-Board-/170889267576?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27c9cb4978

Quortech bought out Elcotel ten years ago and now Quortech is known as WiMacTel.

http://www.quortech.com/

Check with payphone.com to see if they can program it for you (a $25 fee).

The Rate Center programs most brands of payphones (for a small fee of course):

http://www.theratecenter.com/

[Jim Clark]

Thanks for all of the info Ken, I will contact payphone.com on Monday. 

[Jim Clark]

OK Ken, I've had some time to digest the information you forwarded and here is what I understand the steps to be:
1). remove my circuit board and send it to www.payphone.com for programming.
2). I figured I would then have to get a ratefile from www.ratecenter.com.  This step confuses me. I got on their website and reviewed the install guide.  This must have been a document written in the 80s because it is hard to compare with today's technology.  The thing I couldn't understand is how to actually download the ratefile to the actual phone.  The only thing I understand is how to download and unzip the file to my computer.  Getting it to the phone is a mystery to me unless I missed something.  It may be a mute point any way because her is what I would LIKE to do:  Since this is a phone in my garage  I would like all incoming calls to be free and all outgoing calls (no matter where or how long) to be a set fee like $0.25.  Is this an unreasonable idea?
3). Ken; you mentioned based on my circuit board that phone company intervention would be required.  Does this mean that I would have to get my hands on a "change controller board" to handle the phone company requirement?

[Jim Clark]

I contacted Payphone.com and it was determined that I have a protel 8000 board and it required ANOTHER battery.  It is a specialty 4.8v unit that I never would have been able to find the location of the battery and the pinned connection to the circuit board.  Apparently this battery powers the coin relay and portions of the board.  Once I receive and install the battery, I have been given phone reset instruction that I'll give a shot.  Hopefully this works and I can move forward with the desired programming.

[Jim Clark]

I installed the 4.8v Protel battery but had an awful time getting the phone to initialize.  I'm not sure but it seemed like the controller didn't recognize the keyset.  I finally disconnect/reconnected the battery and the connection to the front of the phone and was able to initialize the phone.  I can now receive calls and am prompted for $1.00 to place a local call.  Once the correct was deposited, the call went through.  I can't now remember but I'm pretty sure the coins weren't sent to the coinbox after the hang up.  From my limited experience with the phone and researching things on the internet, I am faced with one of two decsions:
1). Build/purchase a coin controller control board to process the coins on a completed call -or-
2). Program the phone to allow free outgoing calls

Are my assumptions correct?

[Ken Layton]

Here's the manual for the Protel model 8000 board:

http://www.payphone411.com/proteldocuments/Protel_flash_8000Cv4.pdf

Details about the board:

http://www.payphone.com/Protel-Western-8000-Board.html

You change the programmable settings from "coin line" to "B1" (a.k.a. business line or non-coin line). Then have the phone downloaded with the latest rate files from payphone.com

That should make it work like it is supposed to (collect/return coins). Also, the rechargeable batteries on the board only charge when the phone is connected to a phone line and the handset is on-hook for about 24 hours if the battery is new or phone has not been used in at least 30 days.

Ram batteries:

http://www.payphone.com/Protel-RAM-Batteries.html

Payphone batteries:

http://www.payphone.com/Batteries-and-Battery-Chargers/

[Jim Clark]

Hi Ken;
I actually downloaded the Protel Doc you referenced yesterday.  These are the initialization procedures supplied by payphone.com:
***
While phone is hung up, press and hold reset button.
 
While still holding program button lift handset.
 
Listen for a single beep on the handset, once you hear the beep release button.
 
Dial 00+payphone number+ * (star)
Phone beeps once
 
Dial 2801010024*
Phone beeps once
 
Dial 1861*
Phone beeps once
Then Hang up
***
They differ quite a bit from the process referenced in the document but should have converted to a non-coin line by the first step (ie 00+phone number+*).  I don't understand the other 2 codes in the payphone.com instructions but I got the expected "beep" from the phone. I will research other programmable options to see if I missed something.
I would really like to have a "custom" ratefile where all outgoing calls are a set amount ($0.25).  Is this possible?
The battery thing was really weird.  I installed the battery.  Originally tried unsuccessfully to program the board with a strange combination of beeps.  I kept the phone plugged into the phone line for 3-4 days.  Tried it again last night with the same results.  Unplugged/replugged pin connector from phone front to the board and unconnected/connected the battery.  All of a sudden. "Magic".

[Ken Layton]

For programming and rate file setup you will need to contact payphone.com or talk to tech support at Protel.

We never operated any Protel phones on our route so I am unfamiliar with programming/installing them.

http://www.protelinc.com/

[Jim Clark]

Thanks Ken; That was my next step anyway.  I'm slowly making progress. The phone now at least is acting like a phone.

[Ken Layton]

Payphone.com sells a battery charger for the Protel 4.8 volt battery pack.

When connected to a phone line, the battery charge current is limited to 20 ma due to the restrictions of the phone line. Naturally, it would take a while to charge the battery. That's why they sell that external battery charger. The battery quick charges on that, then it's fully charged and ready to install in the phone. If you had a route of Protel payphones, it would make sense to buy the pricey battery charger.

I have a feeling your battery was not fully charged.

[Jim Clark]

I surely would understand that. "Trickle Charges" are always at least an overnight process. I had planned to call payphone.com tomorrow to get an idea as to what programming options I have as far as simplifying the ratefile for my situation.  I was glad that my original call did prompt me for the $1.00 for the outgoing call because it proved that the coin processing worked. Writing this, I'm just not sure the coins were ejected into the box @hangup.  Is there any kind of circuitry/mechanism from the coin mech to the coinbox that would be required for the coin mech to know a coinbox is present?  There is a wire with a clip that is currently doing nothing that possibly could be attached to the box if it is required.

[Ken Layton]

I think you are supposed to have something connected to that connector in picture 3 of yours. The gray and black wires it looks like.

There was an optional "coin level sensor" available that when the coins reached the top cover of the coin box, the phone would "call home" to report a full cashbox.

[Jim Clark]

I double checked the coin operation Wednesday evening and the change was actually being ejected into the coin box.  I had connected the gray/black wires previously.  The one bad thing that I discovered was that every time an incoming call would come in and you waited for more than one ring, the modem would kick in and disconnect the call.  All my initial testing was done standing next to the phone with my cell phone in hand.  Confused some people while attempting to call the house.  I called Payphone.com yesterday (who I highly recommend: very pleasant and cooperative).  I explained my desired usage of the phone and the issue with the modem noise on the line.  We came up with a solution of $0.25 for local calls and $0.50 for long distance calls with unlimited call time.  This was a perfect solution for me.  I get to use the phone as an actual payphone but don't make it a pain to use.  As far as the modem line noise, he couldn't eliminate the "call home" completely but he postponed it to after 15 rings.  This works out fine since the answering machine would kick in long before that anyway.  It took him a little while to send the program down to the phone but he called my cell to let me know it went fine.  The $25.00 programming charge was worth it.

A little masking and paint is all that is left.  I bought the mounting backing plate from payphone.com.  It's plastic but well made.  The holes to mount the phone and run the cord, line up perfectly. There are also plenty of hole options to mount to the wall.  I'll lag into studs on one side and use mollys for the other.

Thanks for all of your valuable help and insight.  These phones are great but obviously weren't originally made for home use.

[Ken Layton]

Pictures, pictures, pictures, please!

Let's see the backboard mounted with phone cable sticking out the hole.

[Jim Clark]

You got it.  I should have the plate mounted tonight.

[Jim Clark]

I included a picture of the payphone wall mount plate.  There were no mounting instructions included but it's pretty straight foward.  My phone line is in a box nailed to a stud so I had one stud handy.  I used (2) 3/8" X 2 1/2" lag bolts on the stud side.  I had steel washers but couldn't use them because the bolt head would have protruded out of the recess in the plate.  I used 50lb wallboard anchors on the "molly" side since there was no stud there.  I was worried about using the wallboard anchor screw in the 3/8" mounting holes because of the slop.  I found some steel spacers at the hardware store that were actually a press fit in these holes and took up most of the slop with the anchor screw.  I had to cut a bit (maybe a 1/16") from the length of the spacers to accomodate the depth of the plate.  I also went up one size in width and increased the length of the supplied anchor screw just to be safe.  The phone weighs over 40 lbs.  Better to be safe than sorry.  As you can see from the picture there are a myriad of mounting holes in the plate.  The 4 pear shaped holes are for attaching the phone.  They line up fine with my phone.  You need 5/16" X 3/4" X 24(fine pitch) bolts in the phone holes.  I'll also try to use lock washers.  They'll fit through the large part of the pear shaped hole (barely) and will hopefully avoid any potential for the bolts working themselves out. 

I'm in the process of masking and painting the 2 phone halves.  It takes a while to cover everything with tape/newspaper/cardboard but it's easier than dis-assembling the phone from the case to paint.  This avoids any electronic issues on reassembly.

[Ken Layton]

You're gonna need 4 of the brass phone mounting studs:

http://www.payphone.com/Brass-Mounting-Stud.html

They screw into the back of the phone from the outside. These are what "hang" the phone in those elongated slots in the backboard.

[Jim Clark]

Hi Ken;
Thanks for the info on the mounting studs.  I already did a "test" mount using the 5/16" X 3/4" X 24 (fine thread pitch).  They fit fine on the phone and mounting plate.  I will investigate the studs though.  Seems like there is a specialized part for everything.

[Ken Layton]

I wouldn't hang a phone without those mounting studs. They'll save you a broken foot.

[Jim Clark]

Ken;
I'll have to go home tonight and look at the back of the phone.  The 4 threaded holes on the back of my phone that align with the pear shaped holes on the mounting plate are 5/16" X 24, not 1/4 X 20 as advertised on the link you forwarded.  I don't know where the 1/4" X 20 studs would go.

[Ken Layton]

Contact payphone.com for the correct studs. I beleive there are different thread sizes dependent on whether you have a genuine Western Electric case or a GTE case.

North Atlantic has some:

http://www.naicomm.com/Security-Studs-p191.html

[Jim Clark]

Ken;
I've been thinking of this in between posts.  Here's how I think it works.  The 5/16" X 24 studs/bolts are for hanging the phone initially on the plate. The 1/4" X 20 studs are attached after the phone is mounted through the phone into the threaded inserts on the mounting plate.  These inserts are a smaller diameter than the ones on the phone.  This will ensure that no one could steal the phone by lifting it up and out. For security purposes.
I'm sure that there are special attachment studs for the phone too.  I will research your links further.

[MaximRecoil]

Ken;
I've been thinking of this in between posts.  Here's how I think it works.  The 5/16" X 24 studs/bolts are for hanging the phone initially on the plate. The 1/4" X 20 studs are attached after the phone is mounted through the phone into the threaded inserts on the mounting plate.  These inserts are a smaller diameter than the ones on the phone.  This will ensure that no one could steal the phone by lifting it up and out. For security purposes.
I'm sure that there are special attachment studs for the phone too.  I will research your links further.

That's correct. The brass security studs (5/16-24) screw into the threaded holes in the back of the payphone's lower housing, and interface with the keyhole slots in the backboard:



Those are actual security studs made specifically for the purpose of mounting a payphone. Some short 5/16-24 bolts from the hardware store may work, but unless you have a short sleeve on them to mimic the unthreaded portion of the real security studs, the phone may not quite align with the 1/4-20 screw holes while just hanging there.

After hanging the phone on the backboard by the brass studs in the keyhole slots, the 1/4-20 screws/bolts screw through holes in the phone's lower housing (4 available in the vault area and 3 available in the chassis / coin mechanism area) into threaded holes in the backboard. You need to remove the coin box, chassis, and coin mechanism first, for access to the screw holes:



By the way, that switch in the vault area with the gray and black wires is the "Vault Alarm Switch" - link. When you mount the phone, one of the 1/4-20 screws/bolts in the vault area will secure it.

[Jim Clark]

Thanks for the pictures Ken.  the one thing I didn't check was the alignment of the 1/4"X20 threaded holes with the holes in the phone.   The (4) 5/16"X24 bolts in the phone lined up with the keyway holes in the plate, so I figured everything was cool. 

BTW, I did try to buy the security bolts at payphone.com, but shipping came to > $12.00 for a $3.00 part.  That's not going to happen unless all else fails (just out of principal).  I also tried Nort Atlantic as you mentioned.  They have a $50.00 minimum order, so that was also a roadblock.
I really don't need the 1/4"X20 bolts any way since theft is really not an issue with my installation.  I'll make something work.  The important thing is getting the phone hung on the plate without "breaking my foot".

I've masked off both halves of the phone and will be painting this weekend.  I hope to have the phone mounted Sunday.  I'll report on my successes/failures.

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks for the pictures Ken.

No problem, but my name isn't Ken.

the one thing I didn't check was the alignment of the 1/4"X20 threaded holes with the holes in the phone.   The (4) 5/16"X24 bolts in the phone lined up with the keyway holes in the plate, so I figured everything was cool.

Yeah, the brass security studs have an unthreaded portion which is thicker than the threaded portion, and the unthreaded part is what rests on the bottom of the keyhole slots. If using hardware store bolts that are fully threaded, the phone is going to rest a little lower while hanging from them. The holes may still line up, as there is some margin for error built in. Even if they don't, you can lift up on the phone a bit to get the alignment you need while screwing in the 1/4-20 screws/bolts. The 5/16-24 hardware store bolts will keep the phone from falling on the floor while installing the 1/4-20 screws/bolts, and that's the important part.

BTW, I did try to buy the security bolts at payphone.com, but shipping came to > $12.00 for a $3.00 part.  That's not going to happen unless all else fails (just out of principal).

I don't blame you; it is patently absurd. They could be shipped USPS in a padded envelope for less than $2 (I know, because someone shipped me some that way).

I really don't need the 1/4"X20 bolts any way since theft is really not an issue with my installation.

When using the real brass security studs, the fit when just hanging from the keyhole slots is not tight; i.e., you can move the phone front-to-back about 1/8", and side-to-side some too. You want the 1/4-20 bolts just to tighten it down. They are dirt cheap at any hardware store anyway. I recommend truss head, or anything with a fairly low profile head. Hex head bolts can get in the way of mounting the chassis and the vault alarm switch. 

I've masked off both halves of the phone and will be painting this weekend.

Why mask anything off? You can just remove everything that you don't want paint to get on. Everything is easily removed from these phones; you can remove everything right down to the bare upper and lower housings in a matter of about 10 or 15 minutes using a screwdriver, a set of SAE sockets/wrenches, and a set of SAE allen wrenches.

[Jim Clark]

Thanks for the valuable info.  Sorry about using the wrong name.  I wasn't paying as much attention to the "poster" as I should have.  As long as I have a little wiggle room for the alignment I should be fine.  From what I can see, the 1/4"X20 are mainly for anti-theft.  It appears that the 5/16"X24 will handle the "heavy lifting" support.  Without the 1/4"X20 bolts, anybody could just lift the phone off of it's mount.  I think even in the product description they are referenced as security studs.  I will certainly use a facsimile though as the prices preclude me from purchasing the "real things".

As far as masking vs assembly/reassembly, I have found it easier in the long run to take the simplest approach.  It might be cleaner and maybe faster (especially if you've done it before, which I haven't) to completely take everything apart, paint and then reassemble.  Masking and prepping has probably taken me @2hours.  After the paint dries, all I have to do is remove the tape and carboard and mount.  The only assemby I have to do is the locks since they were purchased seperately. 

[MaximRecoil]

Thanks for the valuable info.  Sorry about using the wrong name.  I wasn't paying as much attention to the "poster" as I should have.

Not a problem at all.

As long as I have a little wiggle room for the alignment I should be fine.  From what I can see, the 1/4"X20 are mainly for anti-theft.  It appears that the 5/16"X24 will handle the "heavy lifting" support.  Without the 1/4"X20 bolts, anybody could just lift the phone off of it's mount.  I think even in the product description they are referenced as security studs.  I will certainly use a facsimile though as the prices preclude me from purchasing the "real things".

The 1/4-20 bolts/screws are indeed to prevent someone from simply lifting the phone up and off the backboard and walking away with it, but they also tighten the phone to the backboard. Without them, the phone will be wobbly (it won't fall, but you'll be able to easily shift it around, both side-to-side and front-to-back). They don't work the same as the stud / keyhole slot system on a conventional home wall phone, which is designed for a tight fit.

Now, using hardware store 5/16-24 bolts that are fully threaded may allow you to fine tune it so you get a tight fit in the keyhole slots, but depending on the length of the bolts you can find, you may run into problems screwing them in too far, thus interfering with reinstallation of the internal components of the phone (or if the internal components are still in the phone when you try to screw them it, they could prevent you from screwing them in far enough to obtain a tight fit in the keyhole slots).

The easiest way to mount your phone tightly is to simply get six or seven (or four at the very least) 1/4-20-3/4 truss head screws from the hardware store (which will come to a dollar or two); that's the way the phone was designed to be mounted.

[Jim Clark]

That's exactly what I will do.  I have to admit, the 3/4" of the 5/16" bolts are a tad too long.  That's the shortest you can buy at the HW store and it's not worth trying to lop off 1/16". You're also right about the potential to screw the bolts in too far.  I made my test mount with all of the internal components installed.  There was a hard stop on at least one of the bolts.   I will use a lock washer to pick up some of the slack.  Can't use regular washers because the keyhole is too small. But like you said in an earlier post, I'll need a little wiggle room. to line the 1/4"X20 screws up anyway.  I'll pick up some 1/4 X 20 truss head screws and install for added holding power. 

[Jim Clark]

Weekend Update:  The back of the phone mounted to the plate without issue.  I Used the (4) 5/16" X 3/4" X 24 mounting bolts to hang the phone on the keyhole holes.  All of the 1/4" X 20 threaded inserts on the mounting plate lined up perfectly with the phone.  Other than dropping one of the 1/4" X 3/4" X 20 truss head screws into the coin return enclosure, I had no issues. I still had to go to the HW store to pick up the phone connectors to finish the wiring.  A car show kept me from doing that yesterday.  I did have to remove the keypad to give myself enough room to install the upper lock.  The good thing about masking around the areas to be painted is that I was able to preserve the stampings (yellow markings) on the inside of the phone and the back.  Owning an antique automobile has made me preserve originality as much as possible.

As soon as I finish the wiring and assembly, I will post a picture of the final product.  Hopefully this evening.  Thanks again.   

[MaximRecoil]

@Jim Clark: Since you have the same Protel 8000 chassis as I do, and it was programmed by G-Tel like mine was, I have some questions about some strange behavior I've encountered with mine.

1. I can make and receive calls on the payphone without issue, and I can switch to another extension during a call (by picking up the handset on another phone and then hanging up the payphone) without issue. However, if I try to switch to the payphone during a call from another extension (by picking up the handset on the payphone and then hanging up the regular home phone on the same line), I can hear the person on the other end, but they can't hear me. After 25 seconds the payphone will say "error 6" and start beeping, which is the same thing that happens if you just randomly pick up the payphone's handset and do nothing but listen to the dialtone for 25 seconds. "Error 6" means:

"Handset off hook for more than 25 sec. and phone did not see any keypad or card reader activity"

So even though there is a call in progress, it doesn't seem to recognize that fact if the handset is picked up while the call is going on on another extension.

2. My payphone will ring for an incoming call even if the handset has been left off the hook. I think this only applies if it has been left off the hook long enough to say "error 6"; i.e., I don't think it could ring while an actual call is in progress.

Does your phone behave the same way?

[Jim Clark]

I will check to see if my phones behavior is the same as yours.  Being that the phone is ~150' from the house in a detached garage, I will have to enlist my wife's assistance.  I never even thought to try how the phone would react with another extension.  I'll repost as soon as I can test.

[MaximRecoil]

I will check to see if my phones behavior is the same as yours.  Being that the phone is ~150' from the house in a detached garage, I will have to enlist my wife's assistance.  I never even thought to try how the phone would react with another extension.  I'll repost as soon as I can test.

Thanks.

By the way, I've confirmed that someone trying to call during an active call on the payphone will indeed get a busy signal (which is good; it would be screwy if it could ring while you were talking to someone on it).

I'd guess the reason why the payphone will ring when someone calls if its simply been left off the hook (long enough for the receiver to go silent), is so it can't be disabled by Joe Public leaving it off the hook. Otherwise, if someone left the handset off the hook on a payphone out in public, the owner/operator wouldn't be able to call into it to program it or check various other things, because he'd get a busy signal. It must have circuitry in the chassis that allows it to go "on hook" even if the hookswitch is in the "off hook" position.